There is little doubt that firearm-related violence is a serious problem in the United States of America, but I believe that the best way to decrease it is not to enact new laws restricting the production, sale, or ownership of such firearms, because people shall always find ways to work around those laws, but to instead educate all people on how to handle firearms safely.
I believe that a possible way to implement this idea is to have firearms training as an option in every school's curriculum; obviously, such training would need to be available only to students of a certain age or above (for the purposes of this thread, I shall say sixteen years of age) to ensure that the students fully understand the magnitude of usage of firearms. Such training would cover all basic aspects of firearms usage, including knowing all the parts of a firearm, to how aim and fire safely, and also place a great emphasis on safe handling and storage of firearms when they are not in use.
What does everyone else say about this? Do you believe that firearms training should be a standard part of a school's curriculum? Why or why not?
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I'm confused. How is this going to eliminate violence? I don't think most gun violence happens because people don't understand that bullets are going to come out when you pull the trigger.
I'm confused. How is this going to eliminate violence? I don't think most gun violence happens because people don't understand that bullets are going to come out when you pull the trigger.
I think it's possible that violence actually may be reduced a bit if people have what it means to be a responsible gun owner really drilled in their head, and are discouraged from treating them as toys and masculinity enhancers. But of course the main benefit is going to be on the accidental gun death front.
I don't think gun safety is an appropriate school subject, though. It's just too specific. We don't even get driver's education through the public school system (at least not in America), and a lot more people are drivers than gun owners. Mandatory classes for those seeking licenses: yes. In school: no.
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Whats your bases for the belief that harsher laws and gun control will not work when you have other nations that have such measures in place that have significantly lower gun violence? Very little of the problem is derived from people not using a gun properly. The problem is from people USING guns on their fellow man....
Some schools already have gun safety as part of the curriculum, or at least they did. I'm not sure what value it is for the vast majority of american kids who will never own a gun, though. I agree with B_S, firearms safety classes should be a mandatory part of getting a license, just like it is for getting a driver's license, but I don't really see the value of putting it in school. I'd rather kids get taught basic accounting and the banking system waaaaay before they learn guns.
However, while firearms training absolutely should be mandatory for people seeking gun ownership, I question the wisdom of mandatory gun training for children in a school curriculum.
Whats your bases for the belief that harsher laws and gun control will not work when you have other nations that have such measures in place that have significantly lower gun violence?
Because there's absolutely no correlation between harsher gun policies and lower gun violence. Hell, look at Switzerland: mandatory gun ownership laws, less firearms deaths. Then you look at cities like Chicago: very strict gun laws, high gun violence.
There's also the fact that gun ownership and gun sales have increased in America while gun crimes have plummeted.
The issue isn't gun ownership. The issue is violence. You take away the guns, you punish the people who use guns responsibly, while the people who wish to commit violence against others will simply turn to another form of weapon.
Although, if you really want to reduce gun deaths, you should look to the fact that the majority of gun deaths are self-inflicted. The vast majority of gun deaths are the result of suicides.
I think it would be a good idea, but perhaps as part of a larger course. Something I've been mulling over for awhile is the idea of a mandatory class on the Constitution. Something like the "Rights and Responsibilities of U.S. Citizens." It would go beyond the normal history classes (at least the ones I was exposed to) and really explain what the Constitution means. Being that the Second Amendment is a part of it, I'd say a section on gun safety is certainly within the scope of such a class.
I don't think this should be in the curriculum perse, since I can fully understand some people are not comfortable around guns, and should not be forced to. However, I do understand where you're coming from. At the very least, this could decrease the numbers of accidental gun deaths. I think it'd be much more useful and fair if people who want to buy a gun have to have done a gun safety course. In this case, it's the gun owners paying for these things, in stead of the general populace.
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We have laboured long to build a heaven, only to find it populated with horrors.
well, I guess that if you had a H.S. course on the Constitution, and you were covering the second amendment, I don't think anyone would be opposed to theoretical gun safety. You don't have to bring in an actual gun, but you could go over the basics. (what the safety is, always treat it as though it were loaded, only point it at things you want to shoot, that sort of thing.)
That way, students get a basic grounding in the subject. Cause a little knowledge can go a long way.
Because there's absolutely no correlation between harsher gun policies and lower gun violence. Hell, look at Switzerland: mandatory gun ownership laws, less firearms deaths. Then you look at cities like Chicago: very strict gun laws, high gun violence.
There's also the fact that gun ownership and gun sales have increased in America while gun crimes have plummeted.
Without getting into a gun control debate, it's important to note that access to firearms plays a key role in how well gun laws work. If you can drive ten miles and skip the harsh laws, it significantly reduces the impact of those laws. That's a large part of why gun control in the US is rather doomed to failure.
Violence is a mind state if you ban or restrict guns people get stabbed or axed in there sleep. fixing the behavior is the only good solution I can see. Education could help but it wouldn't stop the random or mass killings.
Violence is a mind state if you ban or restrict guns people get stabbed or axed in there sleep. fixing the behavior is the only good solution I can see. Education could help but it wouldn't stop the random or mass killings.
Well, there is an issue of proportionately here, too. To be fair to the pro-gun control side, the SCALE of violence between a knife and a firearm are very different things.
Violence is a mind state if you ban or restrict guns people get stabbed or axed in there sleep. fixing the behavior is the only good solution I can see. Education could help but it wouldn't stop the random or mass killings.
Well, there is an issue of proportionately here, too. To be fair to the pro-gun control side, the SCALE of violence between a knife and a firearm are very different things.
True, some will argue a knife won't kill a large group of people and you have a better chance of out running a knife. I believe the problem lies in the minds of people and not the tool used to kill. A bomb is way more dangerous than a gun. In my state you have to complete a hunter safety program before you can go hunting.
I don't think this should be in the curriculum perse, since I can fully understand some people are not comfortable around guns, and should not be forced to.
You know, in some ways, it might be helpful if they were. There's a certain information asymmetry to the gun control debate in this country: quite a few advocates of stricter gun control plainly have never even laid eyes on a gun except on TV screens, and have no idea whereof they speak. By no means all of them, but quite a few. Seriously, I've talked to people who didn't know what a safety is, didn't know the difference between semiautomatic and automatic, and thought guns really do discharge when you drop them. If everybody took a couple of real gun safety classes, it might go a long way to reducing the hysteria and improving the quality of the conversation.
I don't actually think this should happen, of course. It's way too many public resources to devote to stopping some people from being mildly annoying. Wishful thinking on my part, nothing more.
At the very least, this could decrease the numbers of accidental gun deaths.
Any accidental gun death is too much, of course, and if we can take measures to bring the number down we should. But I just looked up the CDC numbers, and they're really low - 591 in 2011, out of 32,351 total firearm-related deaths (including 19,990 suicides).
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Yes, the accidental gun death rate is actually a very small percentage of the total firearms deaths. I was surprised at how small a portion it was when I looked it up.
The majority of firearms deaths are suicides. So I think if we're talking about how to prevent gun deaths, the bulk of resources and time should not necessarily be how to keep guns away from people, or how to improve gun safety, but instead how to improve our nation's outlook and approach towards mental health.
Especially since I think it's safe to say our gun homicide rate would decrease from proper attention to mental health as well.
Without getting into a gun control debate, it's important to note that access to firearms plays a key role in how well gun laws work. If you can drive ten miles and skip the harsh laws, it significantly reduces the impact of those laws. That's a large part of why gun control in the US is rather doomed to failure.
Oh no disagreements there. But that demonstrates how harsher gun laws do not correlate to less violence, nor do less guns correlate to less violence.
Guns are a lot like motor vehicles left alone they would'nt injury anyone (except in some crazy freak accident) but when operated with a person with the wrong mind state could put everyone endanger .
I have been thinking for quite a long time that schools should be teaching more practical skills. Some kids now grow up not knowing how to cook, do basic wood working, minor car repairs, minor electrical work... I could definitely see some strong value in having classes that go over the basics of a lot of these things. If you grew up in an apartment with parents that didn't cook anything more involved and hamburger helper there is a good chance that you don't know a lot of good basics for life especially if you own your own home. Firearm safety or personal safety could also be part of this kind of class.
You mean Home Economics and Shop class? Do schools not have those anymore?
Some dont. Those tend to be the first things cut when the budget shrinks. I count myself as being lucky that I went to a pretty large school that did have options. Even if those options exist though they are not required, and often not presented in a practical light. (for example my small engines class really taught me nothing about automotive maintenance more about how a small engine works). It's very easy to go through your entire high school career without taking anything outside of math, English, history and science.
However, while firearms training absolutely should be mandatory for people seeking gun ownership, I question the wisdom of mandatory gun training for children in a school curriculum.
Whats your bases for the belief that harsher laws and gun control will not work when you have other nations that have such measures in place that have significantly lower gun violence?
Because there's absolutely no correlation between harsher gun policies and lower gun violence. Hell, look at Switzerland: mandatory gun ownership laws, less firearms deaths. Then you look at cities like Chicago: very strict gun laws, high gun violence.
I"m sorry but did you just suggest anywhere in the US has strict gun control laws? until they have security at each border of each state making sure people have the proper permits. The USA's most lax gun law state should be viewed as the its only gun laws. Since any organized crime will effectively get guns their and bring them to where they need them. Their are many nations that have strict gun control laws that have very little gun crime, Germany/Italy/France/Canada/Japan for example. Also in Switzerland they also have mandatory military for everyone which may explain that gun ownership thing,
There's also the fact that gun ownership and gun sales have increased in America while gun crimes have plummeted.
You may have a point here, can you show me how that core relates to crime dropping in general? ie the drop in overal crime VS the drop in gun crime?
The issue isn't gun ownership. The issue is violence. You take away the guns, you punish the people who use guns responsibly, while the people who wish to commit violence against others will simply turn to another form of weapon.
The issue isn't biological/nuclear/EMP weapon ownership but biological/Nuclear/EMP weapon violence! by banning Biological/nuclear/EMP weapons we are punishing people who use biological/nuclear/EMP weapons responsibly. While people who wish to commit violence against others will simply turn to another form of weapon. NO some things you should just not own! Guns may be a tool but their ONLY purpose is to kill!!!
Although, if you really want to reduce gun deaths, you should look to the fact that the majority of gun deaths are self-inflicted. The vast majority of gun deaths are the result of suicides.
Some dont. Those tend to be the first things cut when the budget shrinks. I count myself as being lucky that I went to a pretty large school that did have options. Even if those options exist though they are not required, and often not presented in a practical light. (for example my small engines class really taught me nothing about automotive maintenance more about how a small engine works). It's very easy to go through your entire high school career without taking anything outside of math, English, history and science.
I can only speak to my experience, but I had to take both. We learned to cook, we learned to balance a checkbook, we did simple woodworking, a bit of soldering, etc. There was no way to graduate high school (or even middle school) without learning this stuff.
As for car stuff, I think that's more appropriate for driver's ed instead of public school.
Some dont. Those tend to be the first things cut when the budget shrinks. I count myself as being lucky that I went to a pretty large school that did have options. Even if those options exist though they are not required, and often not presented in a practical light. (for example my small engines class really taught me nothing about automotive maintenance more about how a small engine works). It's very easy to go through your entire high school career without taking anything outside of math, English, history and science.
I can only speak to my experience, but I had to take both. We learned to cook, we learned to balance a checkbook, we did simple woodworking, a bit of soldering, etc. There was no way to graduate high school (or even middle school) without learning this stuff.
As for car stuff, I think that's more appropriate for driver's ed instead of public school.
For us cooking and sewing was required in middle school but none of the traditional "guy stuff" classes like shop or engines were an option until High school and then they were not required they were electives. Also we did not have anything electrical which I think is a mistake. Being confident in your ability to at least replace a light fixture is a big cost savings versus having to call an electrician to do that.
Edit: and I went to a fairly large school (about 300 per graduating class). So we had a lot more options versus some of the smaller schools around that did not even have those options for people.
I'm not sure I believe that saving some money on a light fixture is a necessary life skill. There are any number of disciplines which we could save ourselves money on if we had a novice skillset in them. It's one thing to say people should know how to cook for themselves or manage their finances - those are very basic life skills and you'll run into a lot of trouble if you can't manage them. I've never felt, however, that my inability to fix a broken microwave is a failure of the school system. Especially when the only downside is that I might sometimes have to pay a few more bucks. Spending hours and hours of school time learning fringe skills that will come in handy maybe once every few years is not a good idea.
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I believe that a possible way to implement this idea is to have firearms training as an option in every school's curriculum; obviously, such training would need to be available only to students of a certain age or above (for the purposes of this thread, I shall say sixteen years of age) to ensure that the students fully understand the magnitude of usage of firearms. Such training would cover all basic aspects of firearms usage, including knowing all the parts of a firearm, to how aim and fire safely, and also place a great emphasis on safe handling and storage of firearms when they are not in use.
What does everyone else say about this? Do you believe that firearms training should be a standard part of a school's curriculum? Why or why not?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I don't think gun safety is an appropriate school subject, though. It's just too specific. We don't even get driver's education through the public school system (at least not in America), and a lot more people are drivers than gun owners. Mandatory classes for those seeking licenses: yes. In school: no.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
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Because there's absolutely no correlation between harsher gun policies and lower gun violence. Hell, look at Switzerland: mandatory gun ownership laws, less firearms deaths. Then you look at cities like Chicago: very strict gun laws, high gun violence.
There's also the fact that gun ownership and gun sales have increased in America while gun crimes have plummeted.
The issue isn't gun ownership. The issue is violence. You take away the guns, you punish the people who use guns responsibly, while the people who wish to commit violence against others will simply turn to another form of weapon.
Although, if you really want to reduce gun deaths, you should look to the fact that the majority of gun deaths are self-inflicted. The vast majority of gun deaths are the result of suicides.
But, ya, I agree with B_S. Most things should just be left to those who actually want those things, as with cars.
That way, students get a basic grounding in the subject. Cause a little knowledge can go a long way.
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Without getting into a gun control debate, it's important to note that access to firearms plays a key role in how well gun laws work. If you can drive ten miles and skip the harsh laws, it significantly reduces the impact of those laws. That's a large part of why gun control in the US is rather doomed to failure.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Well, there is an issue of proportionately here, too. To be fair to the pro-gun control side, the SCALE of violence between a knife and a firearm are very different things.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I don't actually think this should happen, of course. It's way too many public resources to devote to stopping some people from being mildly annoying. Wishful thinking on my part, nothing more.
Any accidental gun death is too much, of course, and if we can take measures to bring the number down we should. But I just looked up the CDC numbers, and they're really low - 591 in 2011, out of 32,351 total firearm-related deaths (including 19,990 suicides).
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
The majority of firearms deaths are suicides. So I think if we're talking about how to prevent gun deaths, the bulk of resources and time should not necessarily be how to keep guns away from people, or how to improve gun safety, but instead how to improve our nation's outlook and approach towards mental health.
Especially since I think it's safe to say our gun homicide rate would decrease from proper attention to mental health as well.
Oh no disagreements there. But that demonstrates how harsher gun laws do not correlate to less violence, nor do less guns correlate to less violence.
Some dont. Those tend to be the first things cut when the budget shrinks. I count myself as being lucky that I went to a pretty large school that did have options. Even if those options exist though they are not required, and often not presented in a practical light. (for example my small engines class really taught me nothing about automotive maintenance more about how a small engine works). It's very easy to go through your entire high school career without taking anything outside of math, English, history and science.
I can only speak to my experience, but I had to take both. We learned to cook, we learned to balance a checkbook, we did simple woodworking, a bit of soldering, etc. There was no way to graduate high school (or even middle school) without learning this stuff.
As for car stuff, I think that's more appropriate for driver's ed instead of public school.
For us cooking and sewing was required in middle school but none of the traditional "guy stuff" classes like shop or engines were an option until High school and then they were not required they were electives. Also we did not have anything electrical which I think is a mistake. Being confident in your ability to at least replace a light fixture is a big cost savings versus having to call an electrician to do that.
Edit: and I went to a fairly large school (about 300 per graduating class). So we had a lot more options versus some of the smaller schools around that did not even have those options for people.