Beginning with my engagement, and continuing in a non-stop fashion since then, I've heard from both friends and family, from both males and females, a litany of the following types of "advice":
"Remember to say 'yes, dear.'"
"It is better to be happy than to be right."
"Happy wife, happy life."
"She'll always win/She's always right."
Although I always found these things offensive, insofar as they purport to tell me/us what my/our relationship is like and insofar as they treat people with varying degrees of disrespect on the account of gender, I've mostly had to hold my tongue... as I find it isn't worth it to call people to account on these 'jokes'.
Though as I've had more time to think about this, I've come to a rather startling revelation (well, startling IMO at least): most of the people around me really do tend to function in the way the aphorisms suggest.
I watch a set of friends, the wife of which is making (IMO) unreasonable demands, and the husband of which seems to sink and cave almost immediately, without even discussing the circumstances. He then turns to me and mutters a few words to me under his breath, sulking in the embarrassment of his public submission to irrational requests.
I watch as even my parents, whom I would have pegged as having the "ideal" relationship, follow these same trends. My mother, off the top of her head, decides something 'needs' to be done today, although it clearly does not, and if my father does not leap to her command immediately, then the nagging sets in. If he had other plans for the day? To hell with that.
I would not form a conclusion, or even be tempted to form a conclusion on the basis of two anecdotes. It is rather more than that. Seemingly everyone in my life "talks this talk", but the more I pay attention to it, the more they all seem to "walk this walk" as well. As I try to make sense of every couple that I know intimately, they all (mostly) seem to fall in line.
I do not place myself in the "caveman" or the "alpha male" category, believing that man is somehow a natural leader and woman a natural follower, not in the slightest. But neither can I believe in any kind of strict hierarchy in a relationship, either. I think it is very important to give up things for the person you love, if need be, and vice versa... but these men seem to surrender their dignity. That is too much, as far as I'm concerned.
I say all this to ask: whether you agree with the practice or not, does my experience with this matter reflect your own? Or are the men I know abnormally wimpy?
Oh, I understand compromise. I completely understand that. Compromise is spectacular.
The insistence that one must always win an argument and one must always lose on the basis of gender, that is quite a different thing in my mind.
What do you make of these phrases/sayings I listed, have you heard of them? Do the people you know say such things?
Quote from Tormod »
You should hear how the women talk about how to deal with the men.
I'm really curious to hear that. No one ever said that kind of thing to me publicly, in front of my future wife. They do say the other things in front of both of us, though.
I don't really know any couples that operate like this - I always thought the sayings were just jokes/stereotypes. Of course, my experience is no less anecdotal.
Women are not 'in charge' as a universal rule. That's a belief only perpetuated by people who believe women should be mommies to their grown men. That's a gender stereotype that's been around for a long time. Both men and women talk about how they 'manage' the other.
I think the key here is that because of this socialization, some women can't accept that they've lost an argument. Or it's just a case of people only selectively remembering things that conform to their beliefs.
Relationships should be partnerships, not dictatorships. My wife and I argue all the time (key word: argue, not fight), and if I feel strongly about something I will win the argument. I think the big misconception here is that people equate being in charge of some things as being in charge of everything.
Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Beginning with my engagement, and continuing in a non-stop fashion since then, I've heard from both friends and family, from both males and females, a litany of the following types of "advice":
"Remember to say 'yes, dear.'"
"It is better to be happy than to be right."
"Happy wife, happy life."
"She'll always win/She's always right."
Although I always found these things offensive, insofar as they purport to tell me/us what my/our relationship is like and insofar as they treat people with varying degrees of disrespect on the account of gender, I've mostly had to hold my tongue... as I find it isn't worth it to call people to account on these 'jokes'.
Though as I've had more time to think about this, I've come to a rather startling revelation (well, startling IMO at least): most of the people around me really do tend to function in the way the aphorisms suggest.
I watch a set of friends, the wife of which is making (IMO) unreasonable demands, and the husband of which seems to sink and cave almost immediately, without even discussing the circumstances. He then turns to me and mutters a few words to me under his breath, sulking in the embarrassment of his public submission to irrational requests.
I watch as even my parents, whom I would have pegged as having the "ideal" relationship, follow these same trends. My mother, off the top of her head, decides something 'needs' to be done today, although it clearly does not, and if my father does not leap to her command immediately, then the nagging sets in. If he had other plans for the day? To hell with that.
I would not form a conclusion, or even be tempted to form a conclusion on the basis of two anecdotes. It is rather more than that. Seemingly everyone in my life "talks this talk", but the more I pay attention to it, the more they all seem to "walk this walk" as well. As I try to make sense of every couple that I know intimately, they all (mostly) seem to fall in line.
I do not place myself in the "caveman" or the "alpha male" category, believing that man is somehow a natural leader and woman a natural follower, not in the slightest. But neither can I believe in any kind of strict hierarchy in a relationship, either. I think it is very important to give up things for the person you love, if need be, and vice versa... but these men seem to surrender their dignity. That is too much, as far as I'm concerned.
I say all this to ask: whether you agree with the practice or not, does my experience with this matter reflect your own? Or are the men I know abnormally wimpy?
Yes, the men in this situation are abnormally wimpy. There are a couple of reasons I see for these guys to be acting like this:
1. They have no balls and married one of the first women to give them sex or attention or both.
2. They subconsciously WANT their woman to take care of them in a motherly fashion. I see this allll the time. Or at least I think I do (I'm not shrink).
3. The "unreasonable" demands are simply easier to do than having a conversation or argument about the request.
4. An unhappy wife will make her husband's ***** a lonely fellow. Sex decreases after being monogamous for a while, and an unhappy wife leads to a lot less sex then whatever the frequency was before her distressed state began.
I found married life to be basically no different than dating. If your woman pushes you around before marriage and is put up with, one can expect at least that level after marriage.
I find that a lot of guys are simply whinny and lazy. If the woman is being exceptionally unreasonable then it's time for a serious conversation. I think a lot of the time people say "she's the boss" because they know for the most part there aren't a lot of outlandish requests being made.
(I'm not a relationship expert and much of this is conjecture based on personal experience or 2nd-hand accounts)
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Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
Its about picking your battles, If you decide to give in on the things you don't really care about, then when you DO care about something most of the time you get your way. Its a pretty soild trade off, I don't care what colour the drapes are, or if we have doilys or not, She does, let her have conpleat control over this "facet" of life, Then when time comes around that we are discussing who gets to read the new book first, I get to win. Its all a matter of perspective.
It really depends on the dynamics of the relationship. If the man likes the woman more and value the relationship more than he is more willing to appease the woman. Vice-Versa, the opposite is true.
However in a truly healthy relationship were both parties values the relationship equally then compromise is key. That is why relationships with both partners with similar social economic backgrounds and attractiveness usually work out the best.
"Remember to say 'yes, dear.'"
"It is better to be happy than to be right."
"Happy wife, happy life."
"She'll always win/She's always right."
I don't think anyone takes those maxims as real advice. They are tounge in cheek lame jokes.
I've met some men who have been completely subservient to the women in their lives, but not because some nursery rhyme told them to be, they were just totally submissive people with zero self confidence and were glad to be slaves to the first girl that said "yes". Really sad situations, too.
Overall, I like to make my wife happy. If she wants me to do something, and doing it will make her happy, I'm glad to do it, as long as I have no objection to it. That's not being subservient, it's just being nice. She does the same for me. In fact I woke up this morning to some donuts, cause she was out and thought I'd like the treat.
The worst falsehoods are the ones with a fraction of truth.
"Remember to say 'yes, dear.'"
"It is better to be happy than to be right."
"Happy wife, happy life."
"She'll always win/She's always right."
This is utterly idiotic and unrealistic. Still, you might think those are true because of there's a lot tamer version of those things. Things are more like:
* "Go a extra mile to say 'yes, dear' because she's special". It doesn't mean you will always say yes. It means there are cases were you would say 'no' to most persons but for your wife (and eventually your kids) you should go a extra mile.
* "It is better to be happy than to be right.". This is the case for all relationships between two humans. If you gonna argue your point to the last consequence whenever you think you're right people will just dislike you. We're all flawed and most of us want our tender flaws to be simply accepted, not argued over to the end of time.
* "Happy wife, happy husband, happy kids, happy life". Making your lady happy will serve no end if you're not happy too. Unlike most dumb guys think, women can reach compromises as well.
* "Sometimes she will win when she's not right". Read point 2. Some times you will win when you're not right as well. Human relations have a lot of feeling and feeling does not respond to logic in a perfect harmony. I've saw cases were 'rationalizing' things - the girl started to admit when she was wrong and act with her head instead of her guts - destroyed the relationship. Lost of libido was the cause lol.
With all those said, in some areas/cultures women will be extra 'demanding'. They will see fairness and rationalize over requests as 'unmanly' trait. A lot of effort and no complain, that's what a alpha males do. I've no idea if this is social, cultural or natural, or even if that happens in a mass scale. But the way I see, this is sort of how women/men relation turns out, to smaller or bigger extend.
Many men in this kind of relationship feels the need and the right to think less and abuse women or act overly dominant. In some cases women wants to be dominated/abused and make unreasonable demands to lead the relationship to that state. It's very complicated topic I guess.
In the end there's some sort of balance and compromise to be reached. This point depends on where you are, where your partner are and where you think both of you can be happy together.
Misandristic sexism does exist (and is arguably popularized/normalized) in American culture. I can definitely attest to seeing this firsthand. And yes, Joss, the types of advice and mentalities you talk about are far too common.
That said, I agree with the other posters in arguing that no relationship needs to be this way. I practice both a lax, "limited control, limited compromise" approach to most of my romantic relationships, especially in the early stages. As things progress into more serious territory, I make it clear that my own personal freedom, desires, opinions and goals are no less valuable than hers.
Compromise is fine, but only if both sides are doing it at equal levels (and then, only if it's done for the right reasons). If my significant other wants me to compromise my hobbits/interests, she had best be willing to give me a good reason and compromise her own interests in return.
I tend to lean towards draftguy2's idea of how a good relationship works. Pick your battles. If you are working and away from the house for 10-11 hours a day and your wife is home, who should have the say in what drapes they want to look at? In the families where both man and woman are working and out of the home, it gets a bit tricky, but there is compromise.
"Remember to say 'yes, dear.'"
"It is better to be happy than to be right."
"Happy wife, happy life."
"She'll always win/She's always right."
I say all this to ask: whether you agree with the practice or not, does my experience with this matter reflect your own? Or are the men I know abnormally wimpy?
It's called being whipped.
The thing I did with my wife was to sit down early in the marriage and define things definitely such as the amount of children, how to handle money, what are our priorities, and that we will maintain some separateness in our lives. By "separateness in our lives" for example that I have a "certain amount of spending money" and if I'm going to buy cards with it don't be surprised to see, well cards bought.
I always say for a man to compliment his wife and for his wife to compliment him. To go with what I mean, for women it is the small things they'll stress about such as men. We fairly much prioritize the things in life around the same in a top ten, but the numbers are different and fluctuate with people.
Saying, "Thank you" whenever your wife cooks dinner or does simply like the laundry is a good thing. It's what you would want if you cook dinner and your wife walks in and says thank you. Some people forget these things. Women have more sex when they're satisfied with their relationship, it's the small list of things.
Women tend to be in charge of the finances among some other things, you're a trained educator and probably have read some of the sociological works in college. This information is "out there." So somethings with the division of labor are true.
But are women really *in charge* I would say no. It's a partnership or else the person with the strongest leadership qualities leads, with their partner as a strong second in command. There are somethings I will defer to my wife on. There are somethings that my wife will defer to me on.
The major need for communication is necessary in any relationship. Whenever one of our children became mentally ill, I was the first to figure out that there was a problem, had a good relationship with that child, and as a family we were able to bring about a good conclusion. My single greatest skills are deliberation, research, and negotiation skills. That's what I bring to the marriage not as a man and husband, but a human person. I do things because I want the "us" to succeed. I do what I can, the wife and as the children go they contribute their own strengths to our family to cover for our individual weaknesses.
The hardest transition for many people is when "I" becomes "us." It's an uncomfortable transition for some. However, some meld too much "us" and love their own "I" in the process.
Frankly, I always advocate for young couples to maintain their friendships, granted at always a diminished capacity especially after children, but to have time off to pursue other interests. Young children are basically scribbling and doing other such things, certainly they can engage in some forms of entertainment like a football game or something sometimes. But for women and men, having a "night off" as a couple and as individuals to be with people every few weeks allows a person to cherish their way.
But if the child is young, expect them to call their mother nightly or yourself. Whenever I travel for work a lot my kids called me all the time when they were young and still do. Whenever my wife went to visit friends, our son when he first learned how to use a phone would call her behind my back several times. Like I'm cooking dinner, and he's calling his mother. It was funny, but it's those sorts of things you have to deal with.
My basic rejection for women and some men, are the "fixer upper males." You can't turn a hooker into a house wife, and you can't turn the "bad boy" into husband of the year. I can't renovate my wife by getting her a boob job and telling her to behave a certain way and she'll automatically conform. How do people think like that I'll never know. It seems to be more of a female trap versus a male trap, but it happens.
Quote from Plutarch[/quote »
"All other men rule their wives; we rule all other men, and our wives rule us.
I think the question is mostly how women survived during the pater familias years, and that men that were on campaign or engaged in the field on how they lived. The women were expected to be a majordomo, which classically would suggest that "our wives rule us." However, I feel this is a delegation point and how women managed to have their lives ran in a male dominated world.
The concept of a "fairer sex" and other chivalry based concepts that were full bore through the Victorian Age is probably where some of the "whipped" concepts come from. There's a difference between a good servant and a bad servant. A bad servant is servile and a door mate, a good servant acts as an adviser. The strongest women in classical antiquity all the way through to today's power couples always had a strong influence on their husband by acting as a guardian to their interests as a family. They were good advisers.
The simplest question I ask my wife or other people when they approach with a problem; "Do you want a solution, or are you looking for someone to talk/***** to?"
Sometimes they already have a solution, and just want confirmation. Sometimes, you have to take that application to the office and turn it in for them with the excuse they "were busy" but instead too scared they wouldn't get the job for a company they want to work for. But that's where you have to know your woman and know your time window. Sometimes forcing your hand in a benign way and going behind your wife's back is smart, other times it is definitely damning.
The example of the irrational fear for not applying for a certain job didn't come out of my marriage, but rather a friend's marriage. The wife was pissed at first, then when she got the interview and the job didn't care and was happy when she got the pay raise and the hours she wanted. It's knowing when to make an executive decision and acting when time is limited and acting costs you nothing in the loss but the gains can be immense. But the worst thing to do would be to ever say "If it wasn't for me you wouldn't have gotten that job." Keeping the narrative, "You earned the job, the family is in a better financial position, and you're happier and I'm proud of you." Or some other win-win situation.
Compromise and making things into a win-win situation always helps. There are some people who are best to vent, then calm down, and then think for a bit and come back to the bargaining table. Other people are best to be told "can we talk about this later please?" Then come back to the situation, but those aren't "controlling" mechanisms those are different responses to problem solution. As some people get irritated fast, vent, and then are kosher. While others that tend to fester and brood and escalate conflict are best to have a calming period. It comes down to knowing your spouse and children.
But yea, the most annoying thing is that sometimes you're not going to control things. For example, when one of the kids was watching Animal Planet they learned about sex and figured out that's where babies come from in people. That's where you're going to run into strange predicaments.
Frankly, if your spouse and subsequent children are as intelligent as you are. I'm certain you're going to have an interesting adventure through life and will figure out your own path. No one life is similar to another. Enjoy it, because life ends quickly. Keeping your integrity is one of the best gifts to yourself and your family.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
I've heard those sayings too, but among couples I know well I don't think that kind of relationship is common. In my experience it is just as common to see the man be the domineering one. I do think that often women just tend to care more about the details, the little day-to-day stuff, which can make it appear that they are making all the decisions.
I expect anybody to tell me when I'm being stupid; it happens more often than you might think. #selfdeprecation
Does this mean she's in charge, though? Not really. I tend to think that entrusting the relationship to one party is really, really stupid. Like, monumentally stupid.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Long version - most women would have a hard time enforcing their wishes if it came down to a real conflict. Most men could physically overpower their women, but just because you can do something it doesn't mean you should.
One common type of relationship consists of a man who holds firm on a small handful of issues that are most important to him, demanding that his wife respect his word on those few issues. He then shows respect for her by allowing her to control the rest of the issues.
That's the way my wife and i work. There are very few issues that i will not compromise on. I make it clear where i won't bend, like when i informed her that no force on earth would make me get rid of my corvette before i'm ready. She knows better than to talk about it. On the other hand she makes most of the family decisions and there are many times when we're out and i ask her what she would like me to do to help her. I've gotten an elbow to the ribs and a *whip* sound a few times, but i just smile about it.
There is no better way to show respect for your partner than to be comfortable taking directions from him or her.
Long version - most women would have a hard time enforcing their wishes if it came down to a real conflict. Most men could physically overpower their women, but just because you can do something it doesn't mean you should.
One common type of relationship consists of a man who holds firm on a small handful of issues that are most important to him, demanding that his wife respect his word on those few issues. He then shows respect for her by allowing her to control the rest of the issues.
That's the way my wife and i work. There are very few issues that i will not compromise on. I make it clear where i won't bend, like when i informed her that no force on earth would make me get rid of my corvette before i'm ready. She knows better than to talk about it. On the other hand she makes most of the family decisions and there are many times when we're out and i ask her what she would like me to do to help her. I've gotten an elbow to the ribs and a *whip* sound a few times, but i just smile about it.
There is no better way to show respect for your partner than to be comfortable taking directions from him or her.
And that's the thing with being a good "second in command" without being a "door mat." You have your Corvette and a few other issues to stand your ground on. Some people don't like being in charge, and want to just do their "thing" and enjoy their time off. Managing a household is full time work, and sometimes doing small things without having to always talk about how to maintain the small things and just doing "the list" and then time managing everything else works just fine. This is probably more typical reflection of people that don't like running direct households and those that do.
Which also goes back towards making good decisions about spouses. For example, some of the men that I have seen with dysfunctional marriages are the type that want to let the wife manage the day to day things. One man in particular had an opportunity to marry a college educated woman who became a school teacher, but failed to seal the deal whenever he thought he wasn't good enough. Granted he was a high school drop out, dated her through her college years, she wanted to marry him, his parents absolutely adored her, she wasn't a *****, and ect. Instead he dropped her after she graduated, meanwhile he was a skilled laborer and owned his own home and had good savings. Instead, married some woman he met in a bar, and since then his life has basically dwindled into nothingness with tax problems, money woes, children problems, and other such things.
If you're going to be a follower and a good second in command, always make good sense to pick a good leader and do not cave to bad decisions. Always go for the "wife material."
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Honestly, I don't think it really matters whether it's a "leader + 2nd in command" or whatever. What matters is that the couple communicate their expectations. If they want to have their partner "in charge" by default, they should say so. If they want to be the one "in charge", then that should be communicated instead. If you want control on certain select issues, or you specifically don't want to deal with certain things, again, tell your spouse. So long as the responsibilities and obligations are split in a way that both parties understand and are happy with, its really no big thing.
Pretty much 100% true. I've known one case where the woman wasn't in charge and the guy was an *******. Seemed borderline abusive.
Women are like cats. If you piss off your cat, you are screwed. You wake up the next morning and the cat has pissed all over your clean laundry. And pood on your pillow. And it's hissing at you. Saying "you didn't pet me the right way last night. Now feed me or I'm leaving you."
Guys are dogs. They're very trainable and they usually just want a belly rub. That being said, its very easy for the cat to get the dog to do what It wants just so the dog doesn't have to put up with that cats crazy **** again.
Pretty much 100% true. I've known one case where the woman wasn't in charge and the guy was an *******. Seemed borderline abusive.
Women are like cats. If you piss off your cat, you are screwed. You wake up the next morning and the cat has pissed all over your clean laundry. And pood on your pillow. And it's hissing at you. Saying "you didn't pet me the right way last night. Now feed me or I'm leaving you."
Guys are dogs. They're very trainable and they usually just want a belly rub. That being said, its very easy for the cat to get the dog to do what It wants just so the dog doesn't have to put up with that cats crazy **** again.
Wow... I... wow.
Thats a pretty offensive position.
"Happy wife, happy life" and "It's more important to be happy than to be right" are both really good, and accurate phrases - and should be applied to both spouses in a marriage (substituting husband for wife, as appropriate). It's never pleasant to live with someone who is angry at you, and it *is* more important to have both people happy than to win an argument.
I've only been married for 5.5 years now, but I definitely see them as true and not as the man being a "door mat". Almost every issue my wife and I have had (and there haven't been many) has been the result of one of us either insisting on their way or the highway or just doing something without telling the other.
If your attitude in a marriage is "what can I get out of it", it won't last long. If your attitude in a marriage is "what can I give my spouse out of this", it will.
Pretty much 100% true. I've known one case where the woman wasn't in charge and the guy was an *******. Seemed borderline abusive.
Women are like cats. If you piss off your cat, you are screwed. You wake up the next morning and the cat has pissed all over your clean laundry. And pood on your pillow. And it's hissing at you. Saying "you didn't pet me the right way last night. Now feed me or I'm leaving you."
Guys are dogs. They're very trainable and they usually just want a belly rub. That being said, its very easy for the cat to get the dog to do what It wants just so the dog doesn't have to put up with that cats crazy **** again.
Wow... I... wow.
Thats a pretty offensive position.
"Happy wife, happy life" and "It's more important to be happy than to be right" are both really good, and accurate phrases - and should be applied to both spouses in a marriage (substituting husband for wife, as appropriate). It's never pleasant to live with someone who is angry at you, and it *is* more important to have both people happy than to win an argument.
I've only been married for 5.5 years now, but I definitely see them as true and not as the man being a "door mat". Almost every issue my wife and I have had (and there haven't been many) has been the result of one of us either insisting on their way or the highway or just doing something without telling the other.
If your attitude in a marriage is "what can I get out of it", it won't last long. If your attitude in a marriage is "what can I give my spouse out of this", it will.
A few more married years than that here, but pretty much the same feeling. Implying that women are all crazy and men are mild-mannered folks who do all the crazy things the women demand to avoid the women throwing tantrums...
1. This mindset will not lead to happy relationships
2. Well, it's good to see we're in a post-sexist world, right?
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Quote from MD »
I am willing to bet my collection that Frozen and Solid are not on the same card. For example, Frozen Tomb and Solid Wall.
If Frozen Solid is not reprinted, you are aware that I'm quoting you in my sig for eternity?
To Grant concerning TreyKapfer-Our culture refuses to recognize emotionally/verbally abusive and controlling women for what they are. As a result this minority colors many mens and womens views of relationships. Some women are *******s, maybe you have been spared this experience?
To Grant concerning TreyKapfer-Our culture refuses to recognize emotionally/verbally abusive and controlling women for what they are. As a result this minority colors many mens and womens views of relationships. Some women are *******s, maybe you have been spared this experience?
This post is so great. It's like one of those advice memes, I assume it's "Neckbearded MRA Hero".
"How come we don't accept women can be cruel too?"
Uses gendered insult about cruel women.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
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Beginning with my engagement, and continuing in a non-stop fashion since then, I've heard from both friends and family, from both males and females, a litany of the following types of "advice":
"Remember to say 'yes, dear.'"
"It is better to be happy than to be right."
"Happy wife, happy life."
"She'll always win/She's always right."
Although I always found these things offensive, insofar as they purport to tell me/us what my/our relationship is like and insofar as they treat people with varying degrees of disrespect on the account of gender, I've mostly had to hold my tongue... as I find it isn't worth it to call people to account on these 'jokes'.
Though as I've had more time to think about this, I've come to a rather startling revelation (well, startling IMO at least): most of the people around me really do tend to function in the way the aphorisms suggest.
I watch a set of friends, the wife of which is making (IMO) unreasonable demands, and the husband of which seems to sink and cave almost immediately, without even discussing the circumstances. He then turns to me and mutters a few words to me under his breath, sulking in the embarrassment of his public submission to irrational requests.
I watch as even my parents, whom I would have pegged as having the "ideal" relationship, follow these same trends. My mother, off the top of her head, decides something 'needs' to be done today, although it clearly does not, and if my father does not leap to her command immediately, then the nagging sets in. If he had other plans for the day? To hell with that.
I would not form a conclusion, or even be tempted to form a conclusion on the basis of two anecdotes. It is rather more than that. Seemingly everyone in my life "talks this talk", but the more I pay attention to it, the more they all seem to "walk this walk" as well. As I try to make sense of every couple that I know intimately, they all (mostly) seem to fall in line.
I do not place myself in the "caveman" or the "alpha male" category, believing that man is somehow a natural leader and woman a natural follower, not in the slightest. But neither can I believe in any kind of strict hierarchy in a relationship, either. I think it is very important to give up things for the person you love, if need be, and vice versa... but these men seem to surrender their dignity. That is too much, as far as I'm concerned.
I say all this to ask: whether you agree with the practice or not, does my experience with this matter reflect your own? Or are the men I know abnormally wimpy?
It works both ways. You should hear how the women talk about how to deal with the men.
Oh, I understand compromise. I completely understand that. Compromise is spectacular.
The insistence that one must always win an argument and one must always lose on the basis of gender, that is quite a different thing in my mind.
What do you make of these phrases/sayings I listed, have you heard of them? Do the people you know say such things?
I'm really curious to hear that. No one ever said that kind of thing to me publicly, in front of my future wife. They do say the other things in front of both of us, though.
What do they say?
I think the key here is that because of this socialization, some women can't accept that they've lost an argument. Or it's just a case of people only selectively remembering things that conform to their beliefs.
Relationships should be partnerships, not dictatorships. My wife and I argue all the time (key word: argue, not fight), and if I feel strongly about something I will win the argument. I think the big misconception here is that people equate being in charge of some things as being in charge of everything.
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I think that's probably easiest
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Giving her the things she wants can make her happy but what she wants is not always what should happen.
Winning the argument does not always make sleeping on the couch better.
Happy husband can also lead to happy life.
Oh HELLZ NO!
Yes, the men in this situation are abnormally wimpy. There are a couple of reasons I see for these guys to be acting like this:
1. They have no balls and married one of the first women to give them sex or attention or both.
2. They subconsciously WANT their woman to take care of them in a motherly fashion. I see this allll the time. Or at least I think I do (I'm not shrink).
3. The "unreasonable" demands are simply easier to do than having a conversation or argument about the request.
4. An unhappy wife will make her husband's ***** a lonely fellow. Sex decreases after being monogamous for a while, and an unhappy wife leads to a lot less sex then whatever the frequency was before her distressed state began.
I found married life to be basically no different than dating. If your woman pushes you around before marriage and is put up with, one can expect at least that level after marriage.
I find that a lot of guys are simply whinny and lazy. If the woman is being exceptionally unreasonable then it's time for a serious conversation. I think a lot of the time people say "she's the boss" because they know for the most part there aren't a lot of outlandish requests being made.
(I'm not a relationship expert and much of this is conjecture based on personal experience or 2nd-hand accounts)
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
However in a truly healthy relationship were both parties values the relationship equally then compromise is key. That is why relationships with both partners with similar social economic backgrounds and attractiveness usually work out the best.
I don't think anyone takes those maxims as real advice. They are tounge in cheek lame jokes.
I've met some men who have been completely subservient to the women in their lives, but not because some nursery rhyme told them to be, they were just totally submissive people with zero self confidence and were glad to be slaves to the first girl that said "yes". Really sad situations, too.
Overall, I like to make my wife happy. If she wants me to do something, and doing it will make her happy, I'm glad to do it, as long as I have no objection to it. That's not being subservient, it's just being nice. She does the same for me. In fact I woke up this morning to some donuts, cause she was out and thought I'd like the treat.
This is utterly idiotic and unrealistic. Still, you might think those are true because of there's a lot tamer version of those things. Things are more like:
* "Go a extra mile to say 'yes, dear' because she's special". It doesn't mean you will always say yes. It means there are cases were you would say 'no' to most persons but for your wife (and eventually your kids) you should go a extra mile.
* "It is better to be happy than to be right.". This is the case for all relationships between two humans. If you gonna argue your point to the last consequence whenever you think you're right people will just dislike you. We're all flawed and most of us want our tender flaws to be simply accepted, not argued over to the end of time.
* "Happy wife, happy husband, happy kids, happy life". Making your lady happy will serve no end if you're not happy too. Unlike most dumb guys think, women can reach compromises as well.
* "Sometimes she will win when she's not right". Read point 2. Some times you will win when you're not right as well. Human relations have a lot of feeling and feeling does not respond to logic in a perfect harmony. I've saw cases were 'rationalizing' things - the girl started to admit when she was wrong and act with her head instead of her guts - destroyed the relationship. Lost of libido was the cause lol.
With all those said, in some areas/cultures women will be extra 'demanding'. They will see fairness and rationalize over requests as 'unmanly' trait. A lot of effort and no complain, that's what a alpha males do. I've no idea if this is social, cultural or natural, or even if that happens in a mass scale. But the way I see, this is sort of how women/men relation turns out, to smaller or bigger extend.
Many men in this kind of relationship feels the need and the right to think less and abuse women or act overly dominant. In some cases women wants to be dominated/abused and make unreasonable demands to lead the relationship to that state. It's very complicated topic I guess.
In the end there's some sort of balance and compromise to be reached. This point depends on where you are, where your partner are and where you think both of you can be happy together.
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That said, I agree with the other posters in arguing that no relationship needs to be this way. I practice both a lax, "limited control, limited compromise" approach to most of my romantic relationships, especially in the early stages. As things progress into more serious territory, I make it clear that my own personal freedom, desires, opinions and goals are no less valuable than hers.
Compromise is fine, but only if both sides are doing it at equal levels (and then, only if it's done for the right reasons). If my significant other wants me to compromise my hobbits/interests, she had best be willing to give me a good reason and compromise her own interests in return.
I'll second Joss in saying I'd like to see this explained in more detail.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
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It's called being whipped.
The thing I did with my wife was to sit down early in the marriage and define things definitely such as the amount of children, how to handle money, what are our priorities, and that we will maintain some separateness in our lives. By "separateness in our lives" for example that I have a "certain amount of spending money" and if I'm going to buy cards with it don't be surprised to see, well cards bought.
I always say for a man to compliment his wife and for his wife to compliment him. To go with what I mean, for women it is the small things they'll stress about such as men. We fairly much prioritize the things in life around the same in a top ten, but the numbers are different and fluctuate with people.
Saying, "Thank you" whenever your wife cooks dinner or does simply like the laundry is a good thing. It's what you would want if you cook dinner and your wife walks in and says thank you. Some people forget these things. Women have more sex when they're satisfied with their relationship, it's the small list of things.
Women tend to be in charge of the finances among some other things, you're a trained educator and probably have read some of the sociological works in college. This information is "out there." So somethings with the division of labor are true.
But are women really *in charge* I would say no. It's a partnership or else the person with the strongest leadership qualities leads, with their partner as a strong second in command. There are somethings I will defer to my wife on. There are somethings that my wife will defer to me on.
The major need for communication is necessary in any relationship. Whenever one of our children became mentally ill, I was the first to figure out that there was a problem, had a good relationship with that child, and as a family we were able to bring about a good conclusion. My single greatest skills are deliberation, research, and negotiation skills. That's what I bring to the marriage not as a man and husband, but a human person. I do things because I want the "us" to succeed. I do what I can, the wife and as the children go they contribute their own strengths to our family to cover for our individual weaknesses.
The hardest transition for many people is when "I" becomes "us." It's an uncomfortable transition for some. However, some meld too much "us" and love their own "I" in the process.
Frankly, I always advocate for young couples to maintain their friendships, granted at always a diminished capacity especially after children, but to have time off to pursue other interests. Young children are basically scribbling and doing other such things, certainly they can engage in some forms of entertainment like a football game or something sometimes. But for women and men, having a "night off" as a couple and as individuals to be with people every few weeks allows a person to cherish their way.
But if the child is young, expect them to call their mother nightly or yourself. Whenever I travel for work a lot my kids called me all the time when they were young and still do. Whenever my wife went to visit friends, our son when he first learned how to use a phone would call her behind my back several times. Like I'm cooking dinner, and he's calling his mother. It was funny, but it's those sorts of things you have to deal with.
My basic rejection for women and some men, are the "fixer upper males." You can't turn a hooker into a house wife, and you can't turn the "bad boy" into husband of the year. I can't renovate my wife by getting her a boob job and telling her to behave a certain way and she'll automatically conform. How do people think like that I'll never know. It seems to be more of a female trap versus a male trap, but it happens.
I think the question is mostly how women survived during the pater familias years, and that men that were on campaign or engaged in the field on how they lived. The women were expected to be a majordomo, which classically would suggest that "our wives rule us." However, I feel this is a delegation point and how women managed to have their lives ran in a male dominated world.
The concept of a "fairer sex" and other chivalry based concepts that were full bore through the Victorian Age is probably where some of the "whipped" concepts come from. There's a difference between a good servant and a bad servant. A bad servant is servile and a door mate, a good servant acts as an adviser. The strongest women in classical antiquity all the way through to today's power couples always had a strong influence on their husband by acting as a guardian to their interests as a family. They were good advisers.
The simplest question I ask my wife or other people when they approach with a problem; "Do you want a solution, or are you looking for someone to talk/***** to?"
Sometimes they already have a solution, and just want confirmation. Sometimes, you have to take that application to the office and turn it in for them with the excuse they "were busy" but instead too scared they wouldn't get the job for a company they want to work for. But that's where you have to know your woman and know your time window. Sometimes forcing your hand in a benign way and going behind your wife's back is smart, other times it is definitely damning.
The example of the irrational fear for not applying for a certain job didn't come out of my marriage, but rather a friend's marriage. The wife was pissed at first, then when she got the interview and the job didn't care and was happy when she got the pay raise and the hours she wanted. It's knowing when to make an executive decision and acting when time is limited and acting costs you nothing in the loss but the gains can be immense. But the worst thing to do would be to ever say "If it wasn't for me you wouldn't have gotten that job." Keeping the narrative, "You earned the job, the family is in a better financial position, and you're happier and I'm proud of you." Or some other win-win situation.
Compromise and making things into a win-win situation always helps. There are some people who are best to vent, then calm down, and then think for a bit and come back to the bargaining table. Other people are best to be told "can we talk about this later please?" Then come back to the situation, but those aren't "controlling" mechanisms those are different responses to problem solution. As some people get irritated fast, vent, and then are kosher. While others that tend to fester and brood and escalate conflict are best to have a calming period. It comes down to knowing your spouse and children.
But yea, the most annoying thing is that sometimes you're not going to control things. For example, when one of the kids was watching Animal Planet they learned about sex and figured out that's where babies come from in people. That's where you're going to run into strange predicaments.
Frankly, if your spouse and subsequent children are as intelligent as you are. I'm certain you're going to have an interesting adventure through life and will figure out your own path. No one life is similar to another. Enjoy it, because life ends quickly. Keeping your integrity is one of the best gifts to yourself and your family.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Does this mean she's in charge, though? Not really. I tend to think that entrusting the relationship to one party is really, really stupid. Like, monumentally stupid.
On phasing:
Long version - most women would have a hard time enforcing their wishes if it came down to a real conflict. Most men could physically overpower their women, but just because you can do something it doesn't mean you should.
One common type of relationship consists of a man who holds firm on a small handful of issues that are most important to him, demanding that his wife respect his word on those few issues. He then shows respect for her by allowing her to control the rest of the issues.
That's the way my wife and i work. There are very few issues that i will not compromise on. I make it clear where i won't bend, like when i informed her that no force on earth would make me get rid of my corvette before i'm ready. She knows better than to talk about it. On the other hand she makes most of the family decisions and there are many times when we're out and i ask her what she would like me to do to help her. I've gotten an elbow to the ribs and a *whip* sound a few times, but i just smile about it.
There is no better way to show respect for your partner than to be comfortable taking directions from him or her.
And that's the thing with being a good "second in command" without being a "door mat." You have your Corvette and a few other issues to stand your ground on. Some people don't like being in charge, and want to just do their "thing" and enjoy their time off. Managing a household is full time work, and sometimes doing small things without having to always talk about how to maintain the small things and just doing "the list" and then time managing everything else works just fine. This is probably more typical reflection of people that don't like running direct households and those that do.
Which also goes back towards making good decisions about spouses. For example, some of the men that I have seen with dysfunctional marriages are the type that want to let the wife manage the day to day things. One man in particular had an opportunity to marry a college educated woman who became a school teacher, but failed to seal the deal whenever he thought he wasn't good enough. Granted he was a high school drop out, dated her through her college years, she wanted to marry him, his parents absolutely adored her, she wasn't a *****, and ect. Instead he dropped her after she graduated, meanwhile he was a skilled laborer and owned his own home and had good savings. Instead, married some woman he met in a bar, and since then his life has basically dwindled into nothingness with tax problems, money woes, children problems, and other such things.
If you're going to be a follower and a good second in command, always make good sense to pick a good leader and do not cave to bad decisions. Always go for the "wife material."
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Women are like cats. If you piss off your cat, you are screwed. You wake up the next morning and the cat has pissed all over your clean laundry. And pood on your pillow. And it's hissing at you. Saying "you didn't pet me the right way last night. Now feed me or I'm leaving you."
Guys are dogs. They're very trainable and they usually just want a belly rub. That being said, its very easy for the cat to get the dog to do what It wants just so the dog doesn't have to put up with that cats crazy **** again.
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Wow... I... wow.
Thats a pretty offensive position.
"Happy wife, happy life" and "It's more important to be happy than to be right" are both really good, and accurate phrases - and should be applied to both spouses in a marriage (substituting husband for wife, as appropriate). It's never pleasant to live with someone who is angry at you, and it *is* more important to have both people happy than to win an argument.
I've only been married for 5.5 years now, but I definitely see them as true and not as the man being a "door mat". Almost every issue my wife and I have had (and there haven't been many) has been the result of one of us either insisting on their way or the highway or just doing something without telling the other.
If your attitude in a marriage is "what can I get out of it", it won't last long. If your attitude in a marriage is "what can I give my spouse out of this", it will.
A few more married years than that here, but pretty much the same feeling. Implying that women are all crazy and men are mild-mannered folks who do all the crazy things the women demand to avoid the women throwing tantrums...
1. This mindset will not lead to happy relationships
2. Well, it's good to see we're in a post-sexist world, right?
This post is so great. It's like one of those advice memes, I assume it's "Neckbearded MRA Hero".
"How come we don't accept women can be cruel too?"
Uses gendered insult about cruel women.