Lol. I love how the justification is 'well some other coach paid for gas, so it doesn't matter that it was obviously portrayed as a school function..using a school vehicle...'
Unfortuantly this will get thrown out of court. She really doesn't have a case.
1. It was volentary they were not made to attend and there was no reprocussions for them attending or not attending. IE they wouldn't get to play in the game the following week.
2. All the other parents knew what was going on so ignorance is not an excuse.
3. He didn't have to go through with it if he didn't want to. He made a personal choice nothing was forced on him.
4. it wasn't a school sponsered event.
There isn't a violation here as much as some people would want you to believe.
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Yeah, this was all 100% choice. It's the kid's fault for "stepping forward" into the "revival". He can just drop it and take it like a nice gesture (which is what it was) and end it at that. He doesn't have to follow a religion just because someone "forced" him. There's no actual damage here.
Nah, there is repercussion, people who don't partake in group activities will get marked as the other.
Its one of the reasons that school prayer defenders were unable to use the "well they can just sit there while the rest of them pray" because its going to create brand new reasons for kids to **** with each other.
The idea that something is really voluntary when you have an authority suggesting it, especially when you have students involved, is laughable. How many of you played highschool sports and wanted to tell your coach no? Well, this is probably the wrong website to ask THAT question, but, fellow nerdlings, imagine your average sport movie that your parents made you watch one time, and thats pretty accurate when it comes to the whole, well, respecting the coach thing.
It wasn't a school sponsored event when a person working for the school used school property to get em there? M45, really? You were up in ****ing arms with "I teach my kids what I want to teach em", yet this doesn't raise the hackles on your back? I knew it, that whole discussion on "should children be taught religion" was just an excuse so you could indoctrinate kids.
It wasn't a school sponsored event when a person working for the school used school property to get em there? M45, really? You were up in ****ing arms with "I teach my kids what I want to teach em", yet this doesn't raise the hackles on your back? I knew it, that whole discussion on "should children be taught religion" was just an excuse so you could indoctrinate kids.
Damn,
Sometimes I even surprise myself.
*sigh* what a poor arguement to even make.
Did the school sponsor the event? was is it announced at school? was there a formal flyer or anything sent around saying that X school was hosting this?
nope there wasn't.
the coach asked if kids wanted to go or not. the parents were aware of it as one of them even drove separately. the school didn't pay for anything as it was personally supplied by the coaches. as for the bus it was acquired by asking of the super-intendant and was granted permission. most schools will allow this if they don't pay for fuel.
Why should it raise my hackles? it was volentary. no one was forced to go if they didn't want to. in fact if you would have read your own article there were several students that chose not to go.
some did others didn't. some were baptized others weren't no one forced them to do anything. they had a choice in the matter. which is perfectly in line with what i said before.
choice. i get to choose to raise my kids how i want. it isn't up to you or anyone else. later in life if they choose differently then that is their choice.
sorry your arguement fails just like it did in the other thread.
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Also, dude, they used a school bus. You don't need the principal to stand on the roof saying "I ENDORSE THIS ACTION" to make it school sponsored. Some parents being aware of an action diminishes this in no fashion. That there wasn't a flyer makes this worse. That this wasn't announced makes this worse.
Read the actual article,
Quote from That article you haven"t clicked on »
Michelle Ammons said her 16-year-old son was baptized without her knowledge and consent, and she is upset that a public school bus was used to take players to a church service — and that the school district's superintendent was there and did not object.
Fail, man,
Utter Fail,
Imagine the same thing happening with a bunch of kids being taken to a mosque or temple or something? How would you feel then. Your lack of reaction is directly related to your own religious beliefs.
Whether it's criminal or not, I still think it's fair to say that this was inappropriate. They should apologize.
As if the kids don't have enough indoctrination to combat in school as it is, they gotta go and pile on the metaphysical musings of Couch Killjoy? Ahhhh, hell no!
"None of the players were rewarded for going and none were punished for not going." - Superintendent Janet Meeks, who then went on to inherits the earths. I think that's a refreshingly atheist-friendly statement for Meeks, since it is official church doctrine that the players who went were rewarded with life eternal, and the students who didn't go were punished with hellfire and damnation.
as a teacher, i can tell you that, when school property in ANY capacity is involved, it is considered to be school-sponsored.
in this scenario, "voluntary" in actuality is "borderline mandatory" in practice, as has been alluded to in other posts here. to assume NO repercussions from not participating is living in denial of how children act... let alone coaches with an agenda.
unfortunately, should the coach be fired for this, the student(s) who complained will still face his (their) share of repercussions as well, as i'm sure the other players will be upset.
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Imagine the same thing happening with a bunch of kids being taken to a mosque or temple or something? How would you feel then. Your lack of reaction is directly related to your own religious beliefs.
So the mom was upset that the 16 year old was taken without her consent, but the kid doesn't need her consent to be baptized.
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Also, dude, they used a school bus. You don't need the principal to stand on the roof saying "I ENDORSE THIS ACTION" to make it school sponsored. Some parents being aware of an action diminishes this in no fashion. That there wasn't a flyer makes this worse. That this wasn't announced makes this worse.
Imagine the same thing happening with a bunch of kids being taken to a mosque or temple or something? How would you feel then. Your lack of reaction is directly related to your own religious beliefs.
Depends on the state... a lot of smaller school districts loan out there buses for community projects. Also, while I agree this was inappropriate, I dont believe the coachs/administration where specifically attempting to skirt rules. There behavior is more along the lines of trying to follow the rules and do something they saw as special for the kids.
as a teacher, i can tell you that, when school property in ANY capacity is involved, it is considered to be school-sponsored.
in this scenario, "voluntary" in actuality is "borderline mandatory" in practice, as has been alluded to in other posts here. to assume NO repercussions from not participating is living in denial of how children act... let alone coaches with an agenda.
unfortunately, should the coach be fired for this, the student(s) who complained will still face his (their) share of repercussions as well, as i'm sure the other players will be upset.
As a teacher in what state/district.... see thats the issue. As for the part about not being voluntary, thats like saying if your at a party that you cant be held accountable for drunk driving since peer pressure made you do it(insert whatever breaking of law). It is valid to say that the kids would be douches about it, implying that the administration thought it would be mandatory thanks to the other kids is pretty far fetched.
The thread seems to be demonizing a group of people who while admittedly wrong MAY not have been intentionally trying to indoctrinate kids(or whatever your specific problem here is).
as a teacher, i can tell you that, when school property in ANY capacity is involved, it is considered to be school-sponsored.
Are these buses even school property though? I know that in this area only private schools have their own buses and all the public schools rent (or charter? Whatever, not really important) buses from private companies. In fact, when I was in school they changed which company they were using for buses at least once, I think twice. Since the school doesn't own the buses but rather there are competing, private companies that own the buses, I don't think it's unreasonable to think you would be able to rent one of these buses for a non-school event. Afterall, they're running a business; gotta make money where you can.
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Voluntary. Sure. As voluntary as it is for a child trying to fit in with a group feeling the peer pressure associated with said trip. I'm betting there were kids that didn't care much about religion and probably didn't believe in God but figured they could risk being ostracized if they didn't attend the service.
And I feel it's hard to argue that the trip was not school-sponsered. Either way, the coach used his authority to organize a religious event, wich is just wrong IMO
Ammons, who lives in Big Spring, said that she is a Baptist but her husband, Danny, is Catholic, and that both feel like their son should wait until he is 18 to make important decisions on religion.
"We felt he was brainwashed," she said.
If only there were more reasonable religious people like Ammons, America would be all the better. Pushing your religion on impressionable children is deplorable
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
Voluntary. Sure. As voluntary as it is for a child trying to fit in with a group feeling the peer pressure associated with said trip. I'm betting there were kids that didn't care much about religion and probably didn't believe in God but figured they could risk being ostracized if they didn't attend the service.
As stated above by someone else, the fact that peer pressure may have existed does not make it mandatory.
Okay, let's assume it wasn't mandatory. It was still a school staff member acting in his capacity as such and using school property in the performance a religious ritual of a particular faith. This isn't okay.
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This is simply wrong... I would bet if this was a "nonstandard" relgion this people would be raising a crap storm. Example if instead of a christan church it was a church dedicated to satin or any of the varous pagan gods. As for they felt they don't need parental concept they do. Until they are no longer minors they need parental concept. That simple.
As stated above by someone else, the fact that peer pressure may have existed does not make it mandatory.
That's because it's not something you do with children
Wether it was mandatory or not would have been irrelevant from a child's point of view. All they knew is that an authority figure organized the event and almost everyone was going. Do you seriously expect those kids to question their involvement and demand a non-religious alternative?
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
Wether it was mandatory or not would have been irrelevant from a child's point of view. All they knew is that an authority figure organized the event and almost everyone was going. Do you seriously expect those kids to question their involvement and demand a non-religious alternative?
You seem to be under the impression that I think it was a good thing, or an OK thing for the coach to do. All I said is that the people saying it was *really* mandatory, even though it wasn't are being stupid.
The problem here is that they used a school bus. That requires money. That means that public money was being spent on a religious ritual. That means this is not a good thing.
As for the part about not being voluntary, thats like saying if your at a party that you cant be held accountable for drunk driving since peer pressure made you do it(insert whatever breaking of law).
However, the people that let you get into the car while you were drunk aren't without guilt either. Moreover, if you're a minor and they were giving you beer – even if you never took a sip – that's still a crime.
The argument really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the kids had a choice, but rather that the coach was offering the trip in a school-sponsored setting. Whether he likes it or not, his name is associated with the school, especially in the coach position. Therefore, if he is going around advertising his (or anyone's) religion to kids, then he is doing something unethical and illegal.
Hell, even if none of the kids went I still think the coach did something ridiculous. Even proposing a trip like that is outrageous and should be condemned.
Are these buses even school property though? I know that in this area only private schools have their own buses and all the public schools rent (or charter? Whatever, not really important) buses from private companies. In fact, when I was in school they changed which company they were using for buses at least once, I think twice. Since the school doesn't own the buses but rather there are competing, private companies that own the buses, I don't think it's unreasonable to think you would be able to rent one of these buses for a non-school event. Afterall, they're running a business; gotta make money where you can.
You're all making the assumption that the buses are school property, but nowhere in the article does it state that the schools owned the bus, nor has anyone provided any sort of outside evidence that the school owns the bus. I'm not justifying what happened, but everyone seems to want to crucify these people based on an assumption that may very well be incorrect.
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I am not sure if there is a law about this anywhere but this was horrible judgement on the Coach. No member of the staff should be contacting a child outside of school for anything in my book. Unless they know eachother through family or another activity what is a coach doing trying to convert children?
The reason this is bad is because it opens the door to so many other things. Down the line when the shop teacher wants to take the kids to see Saw 17 why should he get in trouble if the Coach can convert kids into his religion? They went there with someone who is over 17 so it is ok by law! Hey why not use the school bus?
Bottom line is something like this is just bad judgement. If you meet a school student through the church fine, talk to him/her at church about the religion. Otherwise keep religion seperate. I am not religous and I do not want my child to be preached at from anyone to join any religion. I want him/her to make that decision themselves.
You seem to be under the impression that I think it was a good thing, or an OK thing for the coach to do. All I said is that the people saying it was *really* mandatory, even though it wasn't are being stupid.
It's not. If we were talking about an adult's sport team there would be no argument. Adults can make their own decision, they can be mature enough not to care about peer pressure and understand what's going on. The same cannot be said for children. So for the coach to hide behind the excuse that it was "voluntary" is absolutely ridiculous.
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
It's not. If we were talking about an adult's sport team there would be no argument. Adults can make their own decision, they can be mature enough not to care about peer pressure and understand what's going on. The same cannot be said for children.
I think we're gonna have to disagree here then, because peer pressure doesn't magically make a decision to do something or not to do something mandatory in my mind regardless of age.
So for the coach to hide behind the excuse that it was "voluntary" is absolutely ridiculous.
It was voluntary. That doesn't mean it was appropriate. Its not a matter of "if it was voluntary, then it was an OK trip." Its a factor. A factor that weighs in favor of it being OK. All the other factors appear to outwiegh it yes, but none of that makes it mandatory.
{COLOR=sienna illegible}I am not sure if there is a law about this anywhere but this was horrible judgement on the Coach. No member of the staff should be contacting a child outside of school for anything in my book. Unless they know eachother through family or another activity what is a coach doing trying to convert children?
The reason this is bad is because it opens the door to so many other things. Down the line when the shop teacher wants to take the kids to see Saw 17 why should he get in trouble if the Coach can convert kids into his religion? They went there with someone who is over 17 so it is ok by law! Hey why not use the school bus?
Bottom line is something like this is just bad judgement. If you meet a school student through the church fine, talk to him/her at church about the religion. Otherwise keep religion seperate. I am not religous and I do not want my child to be preached at from anyone to join any religion. I want him/her to make that decision themselves.{/COLOR}
I think some people (and I'm just quoting you because I noticed it a little, but not much) are focusing way to much on the "school bus" issue. A lot of school districts have the school busses available for use by private groups (if they pay for the gas / rental obviously). If such is the case then allowing the bus to be used for the trip was fine (although the trip itself most likely wasn't). Really the issue should be: was it ok for the coach, in his capacity as coach, to have a voluntary team trip to a church service? Most people would say no, that is not OK. I would agree with most people on that. The school bus, is meh.
Crazy stuff really, whats your take on it?
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Ridiculous. I hope she sues them into oblivion.
1. It was volentary they were not made to attend and there was no reprocussions for them attending or not attending. IE they wouldn't get to play in the game the following week.
2. All the other parents knew what was going on so ignorance is not an excuse.
3. He didn't have to go through with it if he didn't want to. He made a personal choice nothing was forced on him.
4. it wasn't a school sponsered event.
There isn't a violation here as much as some people would want you to believe.
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Its one of the reasons that school prayer defenders were unable to use the "well they can just sit there while the rest of them pray" because its going to create brand new reasons for kids to **** with each other.
The idea that something is really voluntary when you have an authority suggesting it, especially when you have students involved, is laughable. How many of you played highschool sports and wanted to tell your coach no? Well, this is probably the wrong website to ask THAT question, but, fellow nerdlings, imagine your average sport movie that your parents made you watch one time, and thats pretty accurate when it comes to the whole, well, respecting the coach thing.
It wasn't a school sponsored event when a person working for the school used school property to get em there? M45, really? You were up in ****ing arms with "I teach my kids what I want to teach em", yet this doesn't raise the hackles on your back? I knew it, that whole discussion on "should children be taught religion" was just an excuse so you could indoctrinate kids.
Damn,
Sometimes I even surprise myself.
*sigh* what a poor arguement to even make.
Did the school sponsor the event? was is it announced at school? was there a formal flyer or anything sent around saying that X school was hosting this?
nope there wasn't.
the coach asked if kids wanted to go or not. the parents were aware of it as one of them even drove separately. the school didn't pay for anything as it was personally supplied by the coaches. as for the bus it was acquired by asking of the super-intendant and was granted permission. most schools will allow this if they don't pay for fuel.
Why should it raise my hackles? it was volentary. no one was forced to go if they didn't want to. in fact if you would have read your own article there were several students that chose not to go.
some did others didn't. some were baptized others weren't no one forced them to do anything. they had a choice in the matter. which is perfectly in line with what i said before.
choice. i get to choose to raise my kids how i want. it isn't up to you or anyone else. later in life if they choose differently then that is their choice.
sorry your arguement fails just like it did in the other thread.
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Were you ever on a team in highschool?
Also, dude, they used a school bus. You don't need the principal to stand on the roof saying "I ENDORSE THIS ACTION" to make it school sponsored. Some parents being aware of an action diminishes this in no fashion. That there wasn't a flyer makes this worse. That this wasn't announced makes this worse.
Read the actual article,
Fail, man,
Utter Fail,
Imagine the same thing happening with a bunch of kids being taken to a mosque or temple or something? How would you feel then. Your lack of reaction is directly related to your own religious beliefs.
As if the kids don't have enough indoctrination to combat in school as it is, they gotta go and pile on the metaphysical musings of Couch Killjoy? Ahhhh, hell no!
in this scenario, "voluntary" in actuality is "borderline mandatory" in practice, as has been alluded to in other posts here. to assume NO repercussions from not participating is living in denial of how children act... let alone coaches with an agenda.
unfortunately, should the coach be fired for this, the student(s) who complained will still face his (their) share of repercussions as well, as i'm sure the other players will be upset.
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So the mom was upset that the 16 year old was taken without her consent, but the kid doesn't need her consent to be baptized.
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Depends on the state... a lot of smaller school districts loan out there buses for community projects. Also, while I agree this was inappropriate, I dont believe the coachs/administration where specifically attempting to skirt rules. There behavior is more along the lines of trying to follow the rules and do something they saw as special for the kids.
As a teacher in what state/district.... see thats the issue. As for the part about not being voluntary, thats like saying if your at a party that you cant be held accountable for drunk driving since peer pressure made you do it(insert whatever breaking of law). It is valid to say that the kids would be douches about it, implying that the administration thought it would be mandatory thanks to the other kids is pretty far fetched.
The thread seems to be demonizing a group of people who while admittedly wrong MAY not have been intentionally trying to indoctrinate kids(or whatever your specific problem here is).
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Are these buses even school property though? I know that in this area only private schools have their own buses and all the public schools rent (or charter? Whatever, not really important) buses from private companies. In fact, when I was in school they changed which company they were using for buses at least once, I think twice. Since the school doesn't own the buses but rather there are competing, private companies that own the buses, I don't think it's unreasonable to think you would be able to rent one of these buses for a non-school event. Afterall, they're running a business; gotta make money where you can.
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And I feel it's hard to argue that the trip was not school-sponsered. Either way, the coach used his authority to organize a religious event, wich is just wrong IMO
If only there were more reasonable religious people like Ammons, America would be all the better. Pushing your religion on impressionable children is deplorable
As stated above by someone else, the fact that peer pressure may have existed does not make it mandatory.
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That's because it's not something you do with children
Wether it was mandatory or not would have been irrelevant from a child's point of view. All they knew is that an authority figure organized the event and almost everyone was going. Do you seriously expect those kids to question their involvement and demand a non-religious alternative?
You seem to be under the impression that I think it was a good thing, or an OK thing for the coach to do. All I said is that the people saying it was *really* mandatory, even though it wasn't are being stupid.
The argument really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the kids had a choice, but rather that the coach was offering the trip in a school-sponsored setting. Whether he likes it or not, his name is associated with the school, especially in the coach position. Therefore, if he is going around advertising his (or anyone's) religion to kids, then he is doing something unethical and illegal.
Hell, even if none of the kids went I still think the coach did something ridiculous. Even proposing a trip like that is outrageous and should be condemned.
You're all making the assumption that the buses are school property, but nowhere in the article does it state that the schools owned the bus, nor has anyone provided any sort of outside evidence that the school owns the bus. I'm not justifying what happened, but everyone seems to want to crucify these people based on an assumption that may very well be incorrect.
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The reason this is bad is because it opens the door to so many other things. Down the line when the shop teacher wants to take the kids to see Saw 17 why should he get in trouble if the Coach can convert kids into his religion? They went there with someone who is over 17 so it is ok by law! Hey why not use the school bus?
Bottom line is something like this is just bad judgement. If you meet a school student through the church fine, talk to him/her at church about the religion. Otherwise keep religion seperate. I am not religous and I do not want my child to be preached at from anyone to join any religion. I want him/her to make that decision themselves.
It's not. If we were talking about an adult's sport team there would be no argument. Adults can make their own decision, they can be mature enough not to care about peer pressure and understand what's going on. The same cannot be said for children. So for the coach to hide behind the excuse that it was "voluntary" is absolutely ridiculous.
I think we're gonna have to disagree here then, because peer pressure doesn't magically make a decision to do something or not to do something mandatory in my mind regardless of age.
It was voluntary. That doesn't mean it was appropriate. Its not a matter of "if it was voluntary, then it was an OK trip." Its a factor. A factor that weighs in favor of it being OK. All the other factors appear to outwiegh it yes, but none of that makes it mandatory.
I think some people (and I'm just quoting you because I noticed it a little, but not much) are focusing way to much on the "school bus" issue. A lot of school districts have the school busses available for use by private groups (if they pay for the gas / rental obviously). If such is the case then allowing the bus to be used for the trip was fine (although the trip itself most likely wasn't). Really the issue should be: was it ok for the coach, in his capacity as coach, to have a voluntary team trip to a church service? Most people would say no, that is not OK. I would agree with most people on that. The school bus, is meh.