Justice War Game2 Sorcery
Target opponent gains an emblem with "2: Draw a card. Activate this ability only as a sorcery." and you gain an emblem with "At the end of each opponent's turn with an emblem, you may create a treasure token for each card that player has drawn this turn.".
I saw that Rosewater mentioned how Smothering Tithe was an accident. Just want to help.
This began as the version in originals, then was streamlined to the above version. You can win the game, right? Just draw the cards.
This concept then began to transpire over into other concept attempting to streamline it further. But I honestly think they are things that should not exist in the world.
Scold Audit1RR Instant
Scold Audit deals 3 damage to any target. If a player is dealt damage this way, create a treasure token for each card that player has drawn this turn.
On Wheel of Misfortune and Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded you can possibly deal 3 then 7 damage (plus their life bid on wheel), then create 7 treasure tokens. To think, I originally wanted this to be 4 damage and more open source for the tokens. I think the adaptation on Play with Fire is more orthodox, and the reach for 3 flexing damage (at 3 mana) is a classic challenge bit for red, tempted to pay for the power of flexibility.
Soul Audit1W Instant
Tap up to two target permanents. Those permanents don't untap during their controller's next untap step. Create a treasure token for each card an opponent has draw this turn.
This originally began as a removal spell, exiling target artifact, creature, or planeswalker + treasure token clause (for the owner of that permanent) for 2WW. This was my attempt to streamline it and bring the cost down so it would have more versatility, while maintaining the primary effect as something worthy and competitive. Originally, I wanted this to tap down three permanents. After all, if you cast this during your turn, you get no treasure. But of course, the challenge of limitation (being forced to pay in some way for flexibility) is canon to good design.
The Fraud TimesC Artifact
At the end of your opponent's turn, create a treasure token for each card that player has draw this turn, then exile The Fraud Times. "Getting away with fraud is like getting away with murder. I hate it here!"
—Braids
Teferi's Puzzle Box on top of all these things doesn't feel like a reason they shouldn't exist. This was my final attempt to streamline the effect. It offers the brain-numbing simplicity that the overstimulated and the smooth-brained love. It lacks all the grueling details that drives action, suspense, and horror.
The Jigsaw Game II1 Enchantment
When this card enters the battlefield, target opponent gains an emblem with "2: Draw a card. Activate this ability only as a sorcery."
At the end of each opponent's turn with an emblem, you may create a treasure token for each card that player has drawn this turn.
The Fraud Times2 Artifact C, : Create a treasure token for each card an opponent has draw this turn. "Getting away with fraud is like getting away with murder. I hate it here!"
—Braids
So, as you brought up. Creating treasures isn't in White's pie. So every white card here is out of pie.
Creating treasure for number of drawn cards is an interesting design. But you are underestimating its cost.
Look at your burn spell and look at Improvised Weaponry. Your base card deals one more damage, does scaling token production and is an instant. Add roughly 2 to every card you have and you are at a good starting point.
Okay, it was mentioned that the intention here is to make them worthy and competitive.
Using cards that have been (at least by popular vote) been considered unworthy and uncompetitive as your golden standard is not reasonable to do.
As I mentioned, I don't think these things should exist, so I am not trying to begin defending them.
I personally don't think that creating treasure tokens is out of white. Because spiritual treasure. Because spoils of victory, triumph over unjust enrichments; the lord giveth, and the lord taketh away from those whose who've gained by unjust means.
I honestly feel like sometimes, Mark tries to plays devil's advocate, and will abuse his status as 'Lead Designer' by attempting to staple biased, subjective, and conditional things as a declared gold standard. And then, who can stop him? Who can stand against his clout declaration (that gives me an idea for a card name). This would certainly be a case of that possibly.
If we could discuss, what do you think about The Fraud Times and the two different War Game versions?
Would you see these becoming new archetypes built around?
the artifact is too splashable and dangerous with wheel effects for that cost (I mean you can net yourself 21 treasure of a single Wheel and if Smothering Tithe showed us, that is an almost unfair play)
I think it becomes tutor bait for sure. I think this could still be interesting and implemented. If say placed on a trigger, for a one time instance, and then given a time loop. It gains the burden of having to be a split spell, cast back-to-back, and not giving you an infinite continuum to setup for.
Justice War Game is like casting Wrath of God on your opponent. I think it needs the cost to be complicated further, something like combining the three color split below, with the converted mana cost provided. I really want to say it's not broken. Your opponent is getting a free, improved Greed. That's an incredible value. It's really just interesting, and thought-provoking, but not broken.
I think it becomes tutor bait for sure. I think this could still be interesting and implemented. If say placed on a trigger, for a one time instance, and then given a time loop. It gains the burden of having to be a split spell, cast back-to-back, and not giving you an infinite continuum to setup for.
I don't know know what are you talking about here....context man.
Justice War Game is like casting Wrath of God on your opponent. (No it is Not, there is no point of comparison between *** and your card) I think it needs the cost to complicated further, something like combining the three color split below, with the converted mana cost provided. I really want to say it's not broken. Your opponent is getting a free (Costs mana =/= free), improved Greed(this is sorcery speed which makes greed better most of the time). That's an incredible value. It's really just interesting, and thought-provoking, but not broken.(IDK opponent will only draw extra cards when they are desperate, to prevent you from winning extra treasure or never but you still getting a treasure each turn of their draw phase, and that's forever you can't lose that ability never, that's kinda brokenish if you think about it)
If say placed on a trigger, for a one time instance, and then given a time loop. It gains the burden of having to be a split spell, cast back-to-back, and not giving you an infinite continuum to setup for.
I don't know know what are you talking about here....context man.
As in:
The Fraud TimesC Artifact
At the end of your opponent's turn, create a treasure token for each card that player has draw this turn. {, then exile The Fraud Times.}
At the beginning of your upkeep, exile The Fraud Times. "Getting away with fraud is like getting away with murder. I hate it here!"
—Braids
1. You don’t get to pull the whole “I’m not actually defending this card” right before you defend the card by saying “But I think the effect is in flavor” either it’s a bad idea or you think it’s good, not both.
2. Flavor does not trump the color pie. As everyone has told you a hundred times. Colors exist for mechanical distinctions first and aesthetic reasons as a distant, DISTANT second. There is a possible flavor reason to justify almost anything in any color but the mechanical color pie is there so that different colors have access to different effect. In a world where a nonrotating format (commander) rules, even having “one exception to give a taste” would cause problems as it warps perception of what should be in the color (going right back to smothering tithe and treasure as an example) and would end up in every deck if strong enough.
3. Number 2 is especially important as you are hellbent on only making “competitive” cards for formats that are characterized by insane interaction and flat-out mistakes. You are making mana positive mana engines, make effects nothing can interact with, and slap shroud onto almost half of your designs as that’s what would be needed to compete with cards that are, by all accounts, MISTAKES! Your attempts to force your cards into competitiveness leads to bad design, not good design.
If say placed on a trigger, for a one time instance, and then given a time loop. It gains the burden of having to be a split spell, cast back-to-back, and not giving you an infinite continuum to setup for.
I don't know know what are you talking about here....context man.
As in:
The Fraud TimesC Artifact
At the end of your opponent's turn, create a treasure token for each card that player has draw this turn. {, then exile The Fraud Times.}
At the beginning of your upkeep, exile The Fraud Times. "Getting away with fraud is like getting away with murder. I hate it here!"
—Braids
That effect can be actually be shorter and less ugly in a instant
Hand of the Robber 1B
Instant
Create a number of Treasure tokens equal to the number of cards target player has drawn this turn, then lose that much life. Exile hand of the Robber.
Sorcery
Target opponent gains an emblem with "2: Draw a card. Activate this ability only as a sorcery." and you gain an emblem with "At the end of each opponent's turn with an emblem, you may create a treasure token for each card that player has drawn this turn.".
I saw that Rosewater mentioned how Smothering Tithe was an accident. Just want to help.
This began as the version in originals, then was streamlined to the above version. You can win the game, right? Just draw the cards.
This concept then began to transpire over into other concept attempting to streamline it further. But I honestly think they are things that should not exist in the world.
Scold Audit 1RR
Instant
Scold Audit deals 3 damage to any target. If a player is dealt damage this way, create a treasure token for each card that player has drawn this turn.
On Wheel of Misfortune and Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded you can possibly deal 3 then 7 damage (plus their life bid on wheel), then create 7 treasure tokens. To think, I originally wanted this to be 4 damage and more open source for the tokens. I think the adaptation on Play with Fire is more orthodox, and the reach for 3 flexing damage (at 3 mana) is a classic challenge bit for red, tempted to pay for the power of flexibility.
Soul Audit 1W
Instant
Tap up to two target permanents. Those permanents don't untap during their controller's next untap step. Create a treasure token for each card an opponent has draw this turn.
This originally began as a removal spell, exiling target artifact, creature, or planeswalker + treasure token clause (for the owner of that permanent) for 2WW. This was my attempt to streamline it and bring the cost down so it would have more versatility, while maintaining the primary effect as something worthy and competitive. Originally, I wanted this to tap down three permanents. After all, if you cast this during your turn, you get no treasure. But of course, the challenge of limitation (being forced to pay in some way for flexibility) is canon to good design.
The Fraud Times C
Artifact
At the end of your opponent's turn, create a treasure token for each card that player has draw this turn, then exile The Fraud Times.
"Getting away with fraud is like getting away with murder. I hate it here!"
—Braids
Teferi's Puzzle Box on top of all these things doesn't feel like a reason they shouldn't exist. This was my final attempt to streamline the effect. It offers the brain-numbing simplicity that the overstimulated and the smooth-brained love. It lacks all the grueling details that drives action, suspense, and horror.
The Jigsaw Game II 1
Enchantment
When this card enters the battlefield, target opponent gains an emblem with "2: Draw a card. Activate this ability only as a sorcery."
At the end of each opponent's turn with an emblem, you may create a treasure token for each card that player has drawn this turn.
The Fraud Times 2
Artifact
C, : Create a treasure token for each card an opponent has draw this turn.
"Getting away with fraud is like getting away with murder. I hate it here!"
—Braids
Creating treasure for number of drawn cards is an interesting design. But you are underestimating its cost.
Look at your burn spell and look at Improvised Weaponry. Your base card deals one more damage, does scaling token production and is an instant. Add roughly 2 to every card you have and you are at a good starting point.
Using cards that have been (at least by popular vote) been considered unworthy and uncompetitive as your golden standard is not reasonable to do.
As I mentioned, I don't think these things should exist, so I am not trying to begin defending them.
I personally don't think that creating treasure tokens is out of white. Because spiritual treasure. Because spoils of victory, triumph over unjust enrichments; the lord giveth, and the lord taketh away from those whose who've gained by unjust means.
I honestly feel like sometimes, Mark tries to plays devil's advocate, and will abuse his status as 'Lead Designer' by attempting to staple biased, subjective, and conditional things as a declared gold standard. And then, who can stop him? Who can stand against his clout declaration (that gives me an idea for a card name). This would certainly be a case of that possibly.
If we could discuss, what do you think about The Fraud Times and the two different War Game versions?
Would you see these becoming new archetypes built around?
Exsanguinate comes close.
I think it becomes tutor bait for sure. I think this could still be interesting and implemented. If say placed on a trigger, for a one time instance, and then given a time loop. It gains the burden of having to be a split spell, cast back-to-back, and not giving you an infinite continuum to setup for.
Justice War Game is like casting Wrath of God on your opponent. I think it needs the cost to be complicated further, something like combining the three color split below, with the converted mana cost provided. I really want to say it's not broken. Your opponent is getting a free, improved Greed. That's an incredible value. It's really just interesting, and thought-provoking, but not broken.
As in:
The Fraud Times C
Artifact
At the end of your opponent's turn, create a treasure token for each card that player has draw this turn. {, then exile The Fraud Times.}
At the beginning of your upkeep, exile The Fraud Times.
"Getting away with fraud is like getting away with murder. I hate it here!"
—Braids
2. Flavor does not trump the color pie. As everyone has told you a hundred times. Colors exist for mechanical distinctions first and aesthetic reasons as a distant, DISTANT second. There is a possible flavor reason to justify almost anything in any color but the mechanical color pie is there so that different colors have access to different effect. In a world where a nonrotating format (commander) rules, even having “one exception to give a taste” would cause problems as it warps perception of what should be in the color (going right back to smothering tithe and treasure as an example) and would end up in every deck if strong enough.
3. Number 2 is especially important as you are hellbent on only making “competitive” cards for formats that are characterized by insane interaction and flat-out mistakes. You are making mana positive mana engines, make effects nothing can interact with, and slap shroud onto almost half of your designs as that’s what would be needed to compete with cards that are, by all accounts, MISTAKES! Your attempts to force your cards into competitiveness leads to bad design, not good design.
That effect can be actually be shorter and less ugly in a instant
Hand of the Robber 1B
Instant
Create a number of Treasure tokens equal to the number of cards target player has drawn this turn, then lose that much life. Exile hand of the Robber.
I think the integrated exile clause is better also. I'll update that to the OP.