Norn of Deep WinterU
Snow Creature — Weird Warrior [C]
When Norn of Deep Winter enters the battlefield, you may exile a snow card from your hand until Norn of Deep Winter leaves the battlefield. Norn of Deep Winter gets +1/+1 for as long as that card remains exiled.
[1/1]
Hraunling Horde3RR
Snow Creature — Dwarf Warrior [C]
Hraunling Horde has haste as long as a snow card is in your graveyard.
[4/4]
Kaldarjar Culler3G
Snow Creature — Elf Shaman [C]
Deathtouch
Whenever Kaldarjar Culler attacks, you may untap target nonsnow creature defending player controls. If you do, that creature blocks Kaldarjar Culler this turn if able.
[2/2]
EDIT: Changed Kaldarjar Culler's creature type from Warrior to Shaman.
EDIT: Bumped Norn of Deep Winter up to uncommon. Nope.
Norn of Deep Winter sure is weird, but again, your design ideas leave me stunned in a good way. (: I don't know whether this is blue or not. The "blind advantage" of the card feels kinda red... the "power at a price" feels kinda black... the "hand matters for power" feels kinda blue... Which is it? Iunno. To me, it feels most like black, but it feels like red wants and needs it the most. Blue is a fine place for it, not saying it isn't, just noting the weird unprecedented space this has. (Do note that 'discard costs' do show up in red/black more than blue, though.)
Hraunling Horde is fun. That's a big dwarf!
Kaldarjar Culler is simple and nice. 2/2 is very restrictive for repeatable "culling", so I like the tension inherent.
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Thanks! I'm glad that Norn of Deep Winter has a vote of confidence.
A little insight into the design process: I originally tried to design these three cards as an incomplete cycle. At one point, these all had variations on the Norn's "put a card on ice" ability. But the tension just felt bad / parasitic at higher mana costs, and spreading the mechanic across multiple cards and colors made it feel less special. So I decided that it needed to be a one-shot, and it needed a definitive color identity.
My reasoning for not making it black or red was essentially that those colors do not need it, since they can always do similar things through discard / sacrifice effects. The mechanic also felt very antithetical to red: red wants its toys now, and this mechanic forces you to commit to a long-term strategy and wait to get your card back. It didn't feel un-green or un-white, necessarily, but I felt like it really, really felt more blue than either of those two colors. So, that's why it's blue.
When I said "like that," I meant on field all upside. Regardless, I look at that, and I don't see a blue creature. Blue creatures still have a fragility to them if thier P/T is agressive. The draw back here seems more fitting in a different color.
Krosan Vorine, while similar, doesn't seem like the right comparison point. If non snow hating is that important to the set, go for it, but it makes wonder what your core statement/design goal is. I get you've got the snow/non snow faction thing going, but that doesn't cover it. (Skimmed your set thread too, didn't catch it.)
Krosan Vorine, while similar, doesn't seem like the right comparison point. If non snow hating is that important to the set, go for it, but it makes wonder what your core statement/design goal is. I get you've got the snow/non snow faction thing going, but that doesn't cover it. (Skimmed your set thread too, didn't catch it.)
The original design goal was simply to do a "Return to Dominaria" block. In that sense, it was extremely open-ended.
In turn, that led to asking myself some questions about why Dominaria is even worth revisiting. What makes it unique, when we have other planes to visit, almost all of which have a stronger flavor identity at this point?
My decision was that snow had to be a part of it. Snow has never shown up anywhere else. But the block also had to advance Dominaria's story. It couldn't rest on its laurels like Time Spiral did.
So I decided that snow had to be a BIG part of it. But why would snow mana come back to Dominaria now? Well... there was my story. There had to be a conflict, and snow mana had to be at the heart of it.
Mechanically, I knew that this meant snow mana bases. Snow's most solid mechanical identity comes from producing mana. That led me to the idea of two factions with competing mana bases. One would be snow, one would be something else (turns out, multicolor).
These three cards here don't really care about snow mana. If you look at the rest of the set, you'll see a great many snow cards that do. These are here more to define the two factions more clearly. I also decided that a lot of snow cards needed to care about other snow cards, to reinforce that identity. So these are mostly here to say "snow (the card type) matters". The mechanical divide of the block is about mana bases, but not every card needs to explicitly interact with your mana.
Norn of the Deep Winter - Is this somehow related to Elesh Norn?
- Reminds me of Thought Nibbler and Wormfang Newt. One way to make it a little harsher could be to force the exile of any card and just give the bonuse only if you exile a snow card.
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, exile a card from your hand until CARDNAME leaves the battlefield.
CARDNAME gets +1/+1 as long as the exiled card is a snow card.
- A rare version of this mechanic could work nice also.
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, exile any number of cards from your hand until CARDNAME leaves the battlefield.
CARDNAME gets +1/+1 for each snow card exiled with it.
Hraunling Horde - It is a mouthful-of-marbles name.
- It is somewhere in the same vicinity as Thundering Giant and Night Revelers, so looks okay as a common.
Kaldarjar Culler - Deathtouch and provoke seems problematic on the same card for green. I would drop deathtouch and bump it up to 3/3 or 4/2. Possibly 5/1.
Norn of the Deep Winter - Is this somehow related to Elesh Norn?
Nope! Norns are a class of supernatural female beings in Norse mythology that are sort of ambiguously and inconsistently identified as spirits, nymphs, angels, giants, and so forth. I am tapping into the norn mythology from a different angle and classifying them as physical creations of fate/destiny itself. Visually speaking, I'm still kind of brainstorming what they will look like, but a good starting point might be to take a visual cue from Melek, Izzet Paragon or Fluxcharger, make it more feminine, then make it spookier and snowier.
Kaldarjar Culler - Deathtouch and provoke seems problematic on the same card for green. I would drop deathtouch and bump it up to 3/3 or 4/2. Possibly 5/1.
Problematic pie-wise? Or power-wise?
I'm intentionally trying to push the envelope on green towards more Control-oriented strategies in this meta, so I'm perfectly happy if it's a little more deadly than you're used to seeing outside of black. But I don't need this card to dominate draft. I've considered making it a 1/2 if that would help keep it at common.
In a vacuum, I like your idea of just giving it a bigger power and nixing the deathtouch, but I have so much beef in my green commons right now that I really need a few little guys to even things out.
Norn of the Deep Winter This worries me as a common, definitely red flagged under using uncommon magic terms with the "until" term and the "for as long as that card remains exiled." wording. Kaldarjar Culler The 2 toughness here means that the potential to get two for ones against 1 power creatures means this should also be red flagged.
I didn't even notice Norn was common - I assumed it was uncommon. I agree with Doombringer on second glance.
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How set are you on the flavor for the blue guy? The immediate flavor interpretation from me was that it some sort of wizard which got stronger while he borrowed your books to study, so the typeline threw me for a loop. I think sivercuts suggestion for the ability is kind of cool, but would definitely shift it to uncommon.
Others look cool.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Norn of Deep Winter could be simpler. The name makes me think "lots of snow". Could it have "snowcraft"? "As long as you control three or more snow permanents (or lands), Norn of Deep Winter gets +1/+1.
Norn of Deep Winter could be simpler. The name makes me think "lots of snow". Could it have "snowcraft"? "As long as you control three or more snow permanents (or lands), Norn of Deep Winter gets +1/+1.
Some sort of "snowcraft" or "snowtalion" effects might be appropriate in white in this set, but that's not within the basket of effects that I'm trying to achieve in Kaldarjar blue.
Pie-wise. Combining mechanics like deathtouch and fight on one green card is like combining mechanics like Time Ebb and Tome Scour on one blue card. Individually the effects are perfectly fine in their colors, but combined it allows you to do something that you should not be able to do with only one color and one card. If you need only one color but two cards to do it, that is fine. Or if you need only one card but two colors to do it, that is fine too.
Kaldarjar Culler should be an uncommon and should be a black-green card. Those are both big changes though, and I thought my other suggestion of removing deathtouch and raising the power would allow it to stay as a monogreen common, which looked like the more important characteristics.
Pie-wise. Combining mechanics like deathtouch and fight on one green card is like combining mechanics like Time Ebb and Tome Scour on one blue card.
I don't think that interaction is really comparable.
The difference between Kaldarjar Culler and Murder is a lot more than just a technicality. You still have to field a creature, and you still have no navigate combat with it. Those are some very green hoops to jump through for the end result. Now...
Final Sting1GG
Instant [C]
Deathtouch
Final Sting deals 1 damage to target creature.
THAT would certainly meet the threshold that you've set out for such interactions, because it doesn't play at all differently from Murder 95% of the time.
Morn of Deep Winter is basically an ugly baby in a vacuum and in the context of the op. Unless the effect is blue's thing in this set, it just doesn't make sense as a one-of.
When I said "like that," I meant on field all upside. Regardless, I look at that, and I don't see a blue creature. Blue creatures still have a fragility to them if thier P/T is agressive. The draw back here seems more fitting in a different color.
I completely agree with this. Borrowing a single card from your hand is hardly a fitting blue draw back. Being fragile like Fantasmal Bear or requiring hops to be played on turn one is normally the way of the blue strong one drop.
I'm a blue aggro lover (merfolks is among my favorite decks ever) so I'm not complaining from a stand point of "blue can't be aggro". It's just that blue aggressive creatures tends to have more peculiar / harsher drawbacks.
That's why I think this could be red. Red is the color that wants to sacrifice diversity (cards in hand) for speed.
Nope! Norns are a class of supernatural female beings in Norse mythology that are sort of ambiguously and inconsistently identified as spirits, nymphs, angels, giants, and so forth. I am tapping into the norn mythology from a different angle and classifying them as physical creations of fate/destiny itself. Visually speaking, I'm still kind of brainstorming what they will look like, but a good starting point might be to take a visual cue from Melek, Izzet Paragon or Fluxcharger, make it more feminine, then make it spookier and snowier.
The creature type "Weird" in mtg have a very specific meaning. They are artificial elemental-like beings composed of things that don't naturally mix - normally a red element (fire, lighting, stone) and a blue element (water, ice, air). Your description is totally different from that. This creature could be a Spirit, have it' own creature or even be a Avatar (although those are normally large beings).
Morn of Deep Winter is basically an ugly baby in a vacuum and in the context of the op. Unless the effect is blue's thing in this set, it just doesn't make sense as a one-of.
Why not?
As I said in post #3, I initially tried to cycle this out. I don't think the mechanic is nearly as interesting on higher-CMC cards, and the set doesn't need a bunch of these in the CMC 1-2 slot in various colors.
I could very easily do another card with this mechanic in Icefall and/or Nexus, even make it a vertical cycle across the block.
Think of it like Kitesail Apprentice or those other "as long as ~NAME~ is equipped" cards. You usually don't get more than one of those per set. They're generally more interesting when they're cheap. You could probably put equip mechanics like that in all five colors, but it would dilute the importance of those mechanics.
Kitesail's mechanic is in the right color. Deep Winter guy feels red. I'd like to see it alongside the other blue commons of the set to get another perspective of it. Got a list/link?
Kitesail's mechanic is in the right color. Deep Winter guy feels red. I'd like to see it alongside the other blue commons of the set to get another perspective of it. Got a list/link?
Here's the set page. Right now, that's all I've got. I have some MSE files but they're not really in a state to share at the moment.
I am aiming to make blue fairly aggressive / midrangey in this meta. I'm really trying to explore what that would mean for blue. Its control profile is being tailored to mainly support those strategies. I don't expect any sort of MUC / permission builds to be viable in this meta.
Likewise, I am trying to make green a lot more slow and controlly, but also keeping some of its typical midrange elements. Neither of those strategies are typical for those colors, but I'm trying to hammer out space for them.
I don't really get the reason for the creature type change. If anything the Weird should be a Shaman since it buffs its power by artificial means.
Speaking of Kaldarjar Culler?
Yeah, I think I just wanted to inject some Shamans into the Kaldarjar commons for flavor reasons. Would "Elf Warrior Shaman" work?
He's talking about the Weird. The Weird is a Warrior, which is, uhm, weird. Especially since Norns are like, destiny-weavers, right?
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Set 1 of 3 in Dominaria block
Norn of Deep Winter U
Snow Creature — Weird Warrior [C]
When Norn of Deep Winter enters the battlefield, you may exile a snow card from your hand until Norn of Deep Winter leaves the battlefield. Norn of Deep Winter gets +1/+1 for as long as that card remains exiled.
[1/1]
Hraunling Horde 3RR
Snow Creature — Dwarf Warrior [C]
Hraunling Horde has haste as long as a snow card is in your graveyard.
[4/4]
Kaldarjar Culler 3G
Snow Creature — Elf Shaman [C]
Deathtouch
Whenever Kaldarjar Culler attacks, you may untap target nonsnow creature defending player controls. If you do, that creature blocks Kaldarjar Culler this turn if able.
[2/2]
EDIT: Changed Kaldarjar Culler's creature type from Warrior to Shaman.
EDIT:
Bumped Norn of Deep Winter up to uncommon. Nope.Hraunling Horde is fun. That's a big dwarf!
Kaldarjar Culler is simple and nice. 2/2 is very restrictive for repeatable "culling", so I like the tension inherent.
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A little insight into the design process: I originally tried to design these three cards as an incomplete cycle. At one point, these all had variations on the Norn's "put a card on ice" ability. But the tension just felt bad / parasitic at higher mana costs, and spreading the mechanic across multiple cards and colors made it feel less special. So I decided that it needed to be a one-shot, and it needed a definitive color identity.
My reasoning for not making it black or red was essentially that those colors do not need it, since they can always do similar things through discard / sacrifice effects. The mechanic also felt very antithetical to red: red wants its toys now, and this mechanic forces you to commit to a long-term strategy and wait to get your card back. It didn't feel un-green or un-white, necessarily, but I felt like it really, really felt more blue than either of those two colors. So, that's why it's blue.
As a green kill spell with a fair amount of text, Culler would be an uncommon.
It could be an uncommon, definitely. Krosan Vorine wasn't. I certainly have to eye my NWO numbers, but I don't think its impermissible as a common.
Krosan Vorine, while similar, doesn't seem like the right comparison point. If non snow hating is that important to the set, go for it, but it makes wonder what your core statement/design goal is. I get you've got the snow/non snow faction thing going, but that doesn't cover it. (Skimmed your set thread too, didn't catch it.)
In turn, that led to asking myself some questions about why Dominaria is even worth revisiting. What makes it unique, when we have other planes to visit, almost all of which have a stronger flavor identity at this point?
My decision was that snow had to be a part of it. Snow has never shown up anywhere else. But the block also had to advance Dominaria's story. It couldn't rest on its laurels like Time Spiral did.
So I decided that snow had to be a BIG part of it. But why would snow mana come back to Dominaria now? Well... there was my story. There had to be a conflict, and snow mana had to be at the heart of it.
Mechanically, I knew that this meant snow mana bases. Snow's most solid mechanical identity comes from producing mana. That led me to the idea of two factions with competing mana bases. One would be snow, one would be something else (turns out, multicolor).
These three cards here don't really care about snow mana. If you look at the rest of the set, you'll see a great many snow cards that do. These are here more to define the two factions more clearly. I also decided that a lot of snow cards needed to care about other snow cards, to reinforce that identity. So these are mostly here to say "snow (the card type) matters". The mechanical divide of the block is about mana bases, but not every card needs to explicitly interact with your mana.
- Reminds me of Thought Nibbler and Wormfang Newt. One way to make it a little harsher could be to force the exile of any card and just give the bonuse only if you exile a snow card.
CARDNAME gets +1/+1 as long as the exiled card is a snow card.
- A rare version of this mechanic could work nice also.
CARDNAME gets +1/+1 for each snow card exiled with it.
Hraunling Horde - It is a mouthful-of-marbles name.
- It is somewhere in the same vicinity as Thundering Giant and Night Revelers, so looks okay as a common.
Kaldarjar Culler - Deathtouch and provoke seems problematic on the same card for green. I would drop deathtouch and bump it up to 3/3 or 4/2. Possibly 5/1.
Problematic pie-wise? Or power-wise?
I'm intentionally trying to push the envelope on green towards more Control-oriented strategies in this meta, so I'm perfectly happy if it's a little more deadly than you're used to seeing outside of black. But I don't need this card to dominate draft. I've considered making it a 1/2 if that would help keep it at common.
In a vacuum, I like your idea of just giving it a bigger power and nixing the deathtouch, but I have so much beef in my green commons right now that I really need a few little guys to even things out.
Kaldarjar Culler The 2 toughness here means that the potential to get two for ones against 1 power creatures means this should also be red flagged.
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Pie-wise. Combining mechanics like deathtouch and fight on one green card is like combining mechanics like Time Ebb and Tome Scour on one blue card. Individually the effects are perfectly fine in their colors, but combined it allows you to do something that you should not be able to do with only one color and one card. If you need only one color but two cards to do it, that is fine. Or if you need only one card but two colors to do it, that is fine too.
Kaldarjar Culler should be an uncommon and should be a black-green card. Those are both big changes though, and I thought my other suggestion of removing deathtouch and raising the power would allow it to stay as a monogreen common, which looked like the more important characteristics.
The difference between Kaldarjar Culler and Murder is a lot more than just a technicality. You still have to field a creature, and you still have no navigate combat with it. Those are some very green hoops to jump through for the end result. Now...
Final Sting 1GG
Instant [C]
Deathtouch
Final Sting deals 1 damage to target creature.
THAT would certainly meet the threshold that you've set out for such interactions, because it doesn't play at all differently from Murder 95% of the time.
I completely agree with this. Borrowing a single card from your hand is hardly a fitting blue draw back. Being fragile like Fantasmal Bear or requiring hops to be played on turn one is normally the way of the blue strong one drop.
I'm a blue aggro lover (merfolks is among my favorite decks ever) so I'm not complaining from a stand point of "blue can't be aggro". It's just that blue aggressive creatures tends to have more peculiar / harsher drawbacks.
That's why I think this could be red. Red is the color that wants to sacrifice diversity (cards in hand) for speed.
The creature type "Weird" in mtg have a very specific meaning. They are artificial elemental-like beings composed of things that don't naturally mix - normally a red element (fire, lighting, stone) and a blue element (water, ice, air). Your description is totally different from that. This creature could be a Spirit, have it' own creature or even be a Avatar (although those are normally large beings).
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
As I said in post #3, I initially tried to cycle this out. I don't think the mechanic is nearly as interesting on higher-CMC cards, and the set doesn't need a bunch of these in the CMC 1-2 slot in various colors.
I could very easily do another card with this mechanic in Icefall and/or Nexus, even make it a vertical cycle across the block.
Think of it like Kitesail Apprentice or those other "as long as ~NAME~ is equipped" cards. You usually don't get more than one of those per set. They're generally more interesting when they're cheap. You could probably put equip mechanics like that in all five colors, but it would dilute the importance of those mechanics.
I am aiming to make blue fairly aggressive / midrangey in this meta. I'm really trying to explore what that would mean for blue. Its control profile is being tailored to mainly support those strategies. I don't expect any sort of MUC / permission builds to be viable in this meta.
Likewise, I am trying to make green a lot more slow and controlly, but also keeping some of its typical midrange elements. Neither of those strategies are typical for those colors, but I'm trying to hammer out space for them.
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Yeah, I think I just wanted to inject some Shamans into the Kaldarjar commons for flavor reasons. Would "Elf Warrior Shaman" work?
He's talking about the Weird. The Weird is a Warrior, which is, uhm, weird. Especially since Norns are like, destiny-weavers, right?
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