Omit1U
Instant
Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose an instant or sorcery card from it. That player puts that card on the bottom of their library.
This feels very black. It's a more limited, instant speed Duress,and more mana. This would have to be printed in a set where blue and black are very closely tied together, something similar to Ravnica.
it's not creature kill and it's not discard. it's not that black.
it stops spells before they have an effect and it manipulates deck order. these are blue abilities.
maybe (U/B)(U/B) would be a better cost. or tack on "each player draws a card"
Removing a resource from the opponent's hand is VERY black. I can agree on hybrid though.
and neutralizing a spell is very blue.
were this able to hit creatures, planeswalkers, echantments and/or lands it would be black but as it can only hit cards which aren't permenants it seems less like discard and more like memory lapse
Painful Memories says it's black. Putting it on the bottom of the library can't be that different if you assume the card you're putting on top isn't going to help them the next turn. Your choices are different when you put it on the bottom (you want to get rid of something they want to see and you don't want to see again)
No, I didn't really think it was. The fact that it replaced the card made it feel a lot less black, but a lot of people still weren't comfortable with it.
As for the fact that it hits only nonpermanent cards, does that mean that Encroach should be red?
The card doesn't make sense in blue, but is okay on a blue hybrid?
Does not compute.
Same reason that Giant Solifuge and Boggart Ram-Gang don't bother me that much. Yeah they're both pretty much mono-red cards, and neither would be reprinted as mono-green...but hybrid just bothers me less.
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See, I see that as servere encroachment into black's territory. When other colors can strip cards away without having to let them hit play or even be cast, black loses that part of its core identity. I'm all for effects being shared, but not the colors' core mechanics.
Edit: Haha, I said encroachment when talking about Encroach. And by accident too. I'm happy now.
Double-Edit: If an encroach-style card were in red, I think it would borderline as the most powerful land destruction spell to date.
Triple-Edit: Restricting this to instants or sorceries doesn't make it more blue. Blue has Remove Soul, so it should be able to nab creatures, right?
Quadruple-Edit: THe more I look at Vendilion Clique, the more I like it. I would be okay with this card: Omit U - Sorcery - Look at target opponent's hand and choose a (Nonland) card. That player discards that card and draws a card. It's the natural extension of looting. Taking it away without compensation bugs me in blue.
it's a fine line between what is black and what isn't in chosen discard once you start putting restrictions on IMO. as a general rule I'd say that if it is limited to a specific type of card then it fits into the colour that deals with that types destruction.
I could see this card:
WW
Instant
Look at target players hand and choose an artifact or enchantment card. remove that card from the game.
or at W with the owner gaining life equal to the mana cost.
Thornling doesn't bother me, and I do understand that green gets haste these days. I really used GS sort of as a reflex response even if it didn't fit so well, but shroud really doesn't go in red either. And it doesn't bother me on GS.
As for Thornling: WOTC justified haste in green as a way to make its fatties a little more powerful in a mostly benign way. While it showed up in PC on a couple of obviously aggro cards, I never understood green haste to be applied mostly to small creatures. Thornling fits in with that philosophy, Ram-Gang does not.
To be fair, mono-white card draw and mono-blue damage prevention on Swans of Brynn Argoll, or mono-blue lifegain and mono-white card draw on Augury Adept also don't bother me. I know that mechanically speaking hybrid doesn't justify the bleed, but it just isn't as obtusely aggravating.
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No, I didn't really think it was. The fact that it replaced the card made it feel a lot less black, but a lot of people still weren't comfortable with it.
Really? People around you audibly commented that they "weren't comfortable with it"? I can't get a peep out of anyone about anything; basically I assumed serious players don't think about that, except when they complain because complaining is fun.
I'm just waiting for someone to start this argument. "Removing things from a hand is VERY black." ... okay. Well, umm, "Omit is VERY blue." See how we got nowhere?
In any case the card shouldn't be an instant.
Quote from dracomageat »
that is a good point.
no it isn't.
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@blue:Duress does not suggest black cannot handle creatures or lands. It shows that is to cheap to allow unrestricted surgical discard, even in black. It shows further that all kind of straight discard is black - even the kind that concerns card types not normally destroyed by black; this cements black as the number 1 (s. a.).
Actually I was commenting on draco's post because he said that painful memories doesn't prove that this kind of effect is in black by saying that painful memories is really just proving that duress+memory lapse is in black. I was being ironic saying that duress then proves that black can't handle creatures or lands. The line of thinking didn't make any sense to me so I was pointing it out. I was not saying that black can't handle creatures. I was emphasizing the opposite.
The point is that black and green have a history of putting cards from hands back on top of the library. As yet it's unexplored in blue. Blue and green get the ability to put permanents on top of libraries (and in some cases on the bottom) but thus far blue has not gotten the ability to put cards from the hand on the bottom of libraries that I know of. In fact the closest blue comes to it is rearranging libraries with Fateseal or cards similar to it OR countering spells and putting them back where you want them (like with Hinder or Memory Lapse)
Direct hand manipulation hasn't really ever been blue. Green gets it with Stunted Growth but that's, I think, kind of an outmoded color bleed.
The point is that if you're basing your opinion on precedent then blue is definitely not the color for this kind of effect. It can counter stuff once you play it, it can deal with it once it has been in play. It's reactive not proactive. It's methodically going to deal with your threats but excepting maybe one example I can think of, it's not meddling with your hand. Spin Into Myth and Ransack make the most sense of how blue can meddle with your "Future" plays.
The example I can think of with the way blue handles manipulating your hand is cards like Windfall. It's good at forcing the opponent to draw cards. That's usually a good thing and double edged sword but the truth is that that's the way blue manipulates your hand. You can have all these cards but you may be getting card quantity not card quality. It's something blue and red both share.
Cards like vendillion clique express this in a more targeted sense (1 for 1) but blue doesn't know how to do what Omit is asking it to do.
Zur's Weirding is also a sort of hand manipulation tool. Revealing the hand is very blue. The other half of the weirding doesn't feel blue but at least it's a precedent you can draw from.
Now i'm not saying you can't start your own precedent but I am saying that when you're arguing about cards that show this is in the flavor of blue and bleeding is a good thing there's quite a lot of history to back up one opinion and little to none to back up the other.
So I'll say again, while painful memories looks like a duress + memory lapse I wouldn't be able to compare omit to anything but painful memories. Painful memories is the poster child for sending cards from the hand to the library. Agonizing Memories is another scaled up version. Lost Hours does a good job too. It comes awfully close to Omit. So there's your precedent.
Feel free to break the color pie if it's flavorfully fitting but don't tell me Omit is blue based on past history with the color and hand manipulation. It's not.
Instant
Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose an instant or sorcery card from it. That player puts that card on the bottom of their library.
it stops spells before they have an effect and it manipulates deck order. these are blue abilities.
maybe (U/B)(U/B) would be a better cost. or tack on "each player draws a card"
and neutralizing a spell is very blue.
were this able to hit creatures, planeswalkers, echantments and/or lands it would be black but as it can only hit cards which aren't permenants it seems less like discard and more like memory lapse
Feels very black though.
No, I didn't really think it was. The fact that it replaced the card made it feel a lot less black, but a lot of people still weren't comfortable with it.
As for the fact that it hits only nonpermanent cards, does that mean that Encroach should be red?
Same reason that Giant Solifuge and Boggart Ram-Gang don't bother me that much. Yeah they're both pretty much mono-red cards, and neither would be reprinted as mono-green...but hybrid just bothers me less.
I'd cut the non-basic but yes, pretty much.
See, I see that as servere encroachment into black's territory. When other colors can strip cards away without having to let them hit play or even be cast, black loses that part of its core identity. I'm all for effects being shared, but not the colors' core mechanics.
Edit: Haha, I said encroachment when talking about Encroach. And by accident too. I'm happy now.
Double-Edit: If an encroach-style card were in red, I think it would borderline as the most powerful land destruction spell to date.
Triple-Edit: Restricting this to instants or sorceries doesn't make it more blue. Blue has Remove Soul, so it should be able to nab creatures, right?
Quadruple-Edit: THe more I look at Vendilion Clique, the more I like it. I would be okay with this card: Omit U - Sorcery - Look at target opponent's hand and choose a (Nonland) card. That player discards that card and draws a card. It's the natural extension of looting. Taking it away without compensation bugs me in blue.
I could see this card:
WW
Instant
Look at target players hand and choose an artifact or enchantment card. remove that card from the game.
or at W with the owner gaining life equal to the mana cost.
As for Thornling: WOTC justified haste in green as a way to make its fatties a little more powerful in a mostly benign way. While it showed up in PC on a couple of obviously aggro cards, I never understood green haste to be applied mostly to small creatures. Thornling fits in with that philosophy, Ram-Gang does not.
To be fair, mono-white card draw and mono-blue damage prevention on Swans of Brynn Argoll, or mono-blue lifegain and mono-white card draw on Augury Adept also don't bother me. I know that mechanically speaking hybrid doesn't justify the bleed, but it just isn't as obtusely aggravating.
Duress would also suggest that black can't handle creatures and that's clearly not true so I don't know where this line of thought is going.
that is a good point.
Really? People around you audibly commented that they "weren't comfortable with it"? I can't get a peep out of anyone about anything; basically I assumed serious players don't think about that, except when they complain because complaining is fun.
I'm just waiting for someone to start this argument. "Removing things from a hand is VERY black." ... okay. Well, umm, "Omit is VERY blue." See how we got nowhere?
In any case the card shouldn't be an instant.
no it isn't.
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is there anything not to be debated here?
Actually I was commenting on draco's post because he said that painful memories doesn't prove that this kind of effect is in black by saying that painful memories is really just proving that duress+memory lapse is in black. I was being ironic saying that duress then proves that black can't handle creatures or lands. The line of thinking didn't make any sense to me so I was pointing it out. I was not saying that black can't handle creatures. I was emphasizing the opposite.
The point is that black and green have a history of putting cards from hands back on top of the library. As yet it's unexplored in blue. Blue and green get the ability to put permanents on top of libraries (and in some cases on the bottom) but thus far blue has not gotten the ability to put cards from the hand on the bottom of libraries that I know of. In fact the closest blue comes to it is rearranging libraries with Fateseal or cards similar to it OR countering spells and putting them back where you want them (like with Hinder or Memory Lapse)
Direct hand manipulation hasn't really ever been blue. Green gets it with Stunted Growth but that's, I think, kind of an outmoded color bleed.
The point is that if you're basing your opinion on precedent then blue is definitely not the color for this kind of effect. It can counter stuff once you play it, it can deal with it once it has been in play. It's reactive not proactive. It's methodically going to deal with your threats but excepting maybe one example I can think of, it's not meddling with your hand. Spin Into Myth and Ransack make the most sense of how blue can meddle with your "Future" plays.
The example I can think of with the way blue handles manipulating your hand is cards like Windfall. It's good at forcing the opponent to draw cards. That's usually a good thing and double edged sword but the truth is that that's the way blue manipulates your hand. You can have all these cards but you may be getting card quantity not card quality. It's something blue and red both share.
Cards like vendillion clique express this in a more targeted sense (1 for 1) but blue doesn't know how to do what Omit is asking it to do.
Zur's Weirding is also a sort of hand manipulation tool. Revealing the hand is very blue. The other half of the weirding doesn't feel blue but at least it's a precedent you can draw from.
Now i'm not saying you can't start your own precedent but I am saying that when you're arguing about cards that show this is in the flavor of blue and bleeding is a good thing there's quite a lot of history to back up one opinion and little to none to back up the other.
So I'll say again, while painful memories looks like a duress + memory lapse I wouldn't be able to compare omit to anything but painful memories. Painful memories is the poster child for sending cards from the hand to the library. Agonizing Memories is another scaled up version. Lost Hours does a good job too. It comes awfully close to Omit. So there's your precedent.
Feel free to break the color pie if it's flavorfully fitting but don't tell me Omit is blue based on past history with the color and hand manipulation. It's not.