This is my "retrocube" - cards from Alpha to Alliances, supports up to 10 players. I started it with all the best cards including original duals and stuff like balance and mind twist, but the gameplay was not very good and it was hard to balance. Over time I have kept dialing the power level farther and farther down in order to create the type of games I want to play. That is, games where decisions and skill matter, and you need to leverage small synergies and tricks to outplay your opponent. If we can do that while also playing Pearled Unicorn and Nicol Bolas then all the better. I've got all the old mechanics - Banding, Rampage, Cumulative Upkeep and cantrips and even a chaos orb for the dexterity check (collectors edition but I still wince a bit at seeing it thrown around ;p).
I have spent a lot of time revising this to where its at and feel its close to ideal, but its really been a solo project so I'd like any thoughts/feedback. I don't need lists of abstractly more powerful cards - I know balance is stronger than truce, more looking for thoughts on how to make themes pop and gameplay to be interesting and not autopilot dumb, or to identify cards that seem too strong against the rest.
My current watchlist is whether breeding pit and caribou range are too strong for a neverending stream of bodies or if they are reigned in by the land destruction and various evasive dudes, and whether orcish artillery is too good for making combat math impossible on the opponent.
As a reference the cube thus includes these sets:
Alpha/Beta, Revised
The Dark, Legends, Arabian Nights, Antiquities
Homelands, Fallen Empires
Ice age, Alliances
and maybe worth mentioning 4th edition and chronicles although these are all reprints from the sets above.
Some gameplay/design notes:
* There is limited removal to go around, which means cheap creatures shouldn't be "must kill" (no Royal Assassins)
* "Pingers" were very strong so I removed most of them including Prodigal Sorcerer.
* Aggro decks are possible but games are generally slow - you almost always get to 5+ mana and 8 is not unreasonable.
* I tried to really limit the quantity and power of creatures at cmc 5-7 so games arent just stall-into-6-drop every time. Elder Dragons should be the endgame for that approach
* There isn't much card advantage beyond the various cantrips ("draw a card at the beginning of the next turns upkeep")
* There is limited mana fixing so "splashing" is not trivial.
* There are limited answers to enchantments and artifacts so they cannot be "must kill" (e.g. no Enduring Renewal or Aladdin's Ring)
Some of the concepts I tried to embed:
* Auras/Enchants (Rabid Wombat, Verduran Enchantress)
* Reanimation/Discard (Dwarven Armorer, Animate Dead, Nature's Blessing, Hymn of Rebirth)
* Mill (Millstone, Ashnod's Cylix, Howling Mine)
* Top card of library manipulation (Sinbad, Petra Sphinx, Phyrexian Devourer, Conch Horn, Orcish Spy)
* Land Destruction (Stone Rain, Blight, Fumarole)
* Forced card draw (also a way to mill) (Black Vise, Storm Seeker, Wheel/Diminishing Returns, Underworld Dreams)
* Goblins (Goblin King, Grenade, Chirugeon)
* Monocolor payoffs (Crusade, Nightmare, Eternal Flame, Killer Bees, Homarid Spawning Bed)
* "The Dream": T1 Mind Bomb, T2 Animate Dead on Polar Kraken
* Land untapping: (mystic might, forbidden lore, hot springs, desert, ley druid, elder druid, twiddle)
* Jokulhaups: (Night Soil, Iceberg, False Demise)
* Land Type Effects (Dandan, landwalk, Mystic Compass, Jinx, Phantasmal Terrain)
* Sacrifice/swarm (Thallid, Sengir Autocrat, Brine Shaman, Thelonite Druid)
I'm sure others I've missed but running out of steam here ;p
I love the "Encyclopedia Magic" format, and it's my favorite iteration of old school Magic, bar none.
That being said, this list feels too intentionally underpowered for my liking. I've played and managed a lot of old school cubes, and without all the best classic cards in the mix, it just wasn't an enjoyable format for us.
Also, I don't understand your powerlevel ban metrics at all. Considering banning Breeding Pit for being too good, but Kjeldoran Outpost is somehow okay? Skull Catapult is too good, but Chaos Orb is fine? A random 6-mana critter like Personal Incarnation is unbeatable but it's okay to draw 4+ cards off Braingeyser instead? Can't make heads or tails of what you're trying to do here...
Lastly, there are a ton of fantastic old school cards that are left out, and I can't really figure out why. I can't imagine them being too good, but they're far better than a lot of the stuff in the cube. The rest of the WW and BB jump knights, Thunder Spirit, Serra Angel, Serendib Djinn, Mahomati Djinn, Hypnotic Specter, Juzam Djinn, Sengir Vampire, Autumn Willow, Juggernaut, Su-Chi ...like if Serendib Efreet and Erhnam Djinn are somehow allowable, where are all the rest of the playable creatures?
You mentioned in the OP that there isn't enough removal to allow good creatures to be played, but you aren't playing all the playable removal spells... In fact, lots of them seem to be missing.
Jayemdae Tome is a staple of classic Magic; I assume it was cut for being too good? (Not sure, since you allow Disrupting Scepter.) And not just Tome, there are tons of format-defining cards that seem to be omitted. They're so critical to the Classic Magic experience that I can only assume they've somehow been banned?
Like, I love Encyclopedia Magic, but this list looks to be missing a lot of what makes that format desirable to play for guys like me that played Magic back in 1995.
I hope it plays exactly to what you and your playgroup are looking for, since that's all that matters. But for us, we wanted to play with all the good cards from that era; without them, we lost interest in the format pretty quickly. Just my $0.02.
First of all, big thanks for taking the time to have a look and provide some comments. I read your article on cube design philosophy and agree with the idea that in the end the cube being what your playgroup wants to play is the ultimate "right choice". But as long as we're talking with respect to the cubes purpose/objective there's still a lot to be learned from looking critically at inclusions and exclusions.
As you probably gathered from the OP, I have no interest in powered/broken gameplay. I'll take my lumps in Modern where people do crazy fast and broken things because I get to pick the 75 cards I go to war with; but for cube I want interactive games where decisions matter and you have time to find a way out of sticky situations. My initial version was what you described a bit above as the powered equivalent (no actual power 9, but original duals, mind twist, balance, geddon, shivan/serra/sengir etc). I thought it'd just be wicked to have mid-90s powerhouses in my deck again - and it was, but the gameplay was so bad nobody would want to play it a second time. The crazy strong creatures would just crush games too easily, and the crazy strong spells weren't far behind. Sure you might control magic that shivan dragon - trumping their bomb, but most of the time those cards were just going uncontested and destroying games without ever running into each other. I just dialed back the "icons" from those broken cards down to the crap you started out with in magic - grizzly bears and hill giants.
So what I'm trying to do isn't easy and I could very well be off the mark, so I really do appreciate some criticism/questions - I want the cube to have interesting draft choices and interactive skillful gameplay - I think that is acheived by things like no cheap must-answer threats, a limited # of high CMC threats, and a low average power level that allows otherwise mediocre synergies to provide actual value.
1. Breeding Pit vs Kjeldoran Outpost
So first of all I consider Outpost a first pick in most packs and it could very well be too strong. What I think makes it probably okay is the availability of land destruction in the cube (mostly Jund - but U has some good answers too like Boomerang, Psychic Venom, and Phantasmal Terrain). Caribou Range seems probably okay as well between being vulnerable to LD, costing 7 mana for the first token, and making 0/1s instead of 1/1s. Breeding Pit is in between - its 0/1s, but its only BB and there are very few outs to enchantments (tranquility, disenchant, desert twister, disk, orb). There are also less pump effects (bad moon) compared to W (voices, crusade, jihad). What I want Pit to do is fuel things like Minion of Leshrac without being just oppressive in other situations.
2. Skull Catapault vs Chaos Orb
This is surprising, because chaos orb is actually a joke and a waste of 4 mana 75%+ of the time. Maybe you have the mad cardflipping skills, but for most people its the first time they have ever tried to flip a card from a foot and have it land on something. I will throw the card in for the fun of running it and the spectacle of the flip, but a good card it is absolutely not. But more to the point on Catapault, colourless cards are dangerous because they go everywhere - and having all your creatures turn into shocks is no joke. I took it out largely to make Pit/Caribou Range less potentially broken, but everytime I have played this card it has been an all star allowing me to burn people out from 8 life or less, sac things with cumulative upkeep for value, get free value off chump blocks, etc.
3. Personal Incarnation vs Braingeyser
Braingeyser is another card I consider a first pick pretty much everytime. You may be on the mark here that I am underestimating how powerful it realy is and that its just a Mind Twist / Balance in disguise and should be cut in the interest of "nothing broken/unbeatable". For a while I really struggled to have a reason to play Blue - it slowly reacquired Ray of Command and Serendib Efreet and Glacial Wall to make it better - perhaps bringing those cards back means Geyser should go. As for Personal Incarnation I think you would have to look again at how someone can kill a 6/6 that generally will not die to damage. You're talking about Swords, Terror, Wrath of God/Hellfire, and Dark Banishing. A six mana 6/6 puts Craw Wurm (a good standard for what a beefy body should be here) to shame in a colour with no right to that territory. The ability to redirect damage means you never defeat it in combat either. The drawback also almost never happens due to all of the above - when there are only a few cards that actually kill it in the cube the risk is near-zero of getting blown out and losing 10 life or whatever. I left this one in way past the Sengir/Serra cut, but eventually I realized that it should give way to something like Kjeldoran Phalanx or Hazduhr the Abbot for an appropriate "white fatty"
"The rest of the WW and BB jump knights, Thunder Spirit, Serra Angel, Serendib Djinn, Mahomati Djinn, Hypnotic Specter, Juzam Djinn, Sengir Vampire, Autumn Willow, Juggernaut, Su-Chi ...like if Serendib Efreet and Erhnam Djinn are somehow allowable, where are all the rest of the playable creatures"
Let me start at the end. Serendib and Ernham have drawbacks. Assuming Serendib is swinging you're trading 3 life for 1 each turn, a 2 point net which is wind-drake-ish. It's also a first pick in blue. I go back and forth over whether this should be Azure Drake or Phantom Monster - but in the end I like the drawback that keeps it from "walling up" the way an Azure Drake can. I love phantasmal forces here as the perfect balance for a blue flyer - hits hard, sucks at defense, dies to a stiff breeze. When the flyers can also play great defense they feel too gross. Ernham is similar - if you are giving forestwalk to a 2/2 you're trading 4 life for 2 - not that amazing.
Juggernaut, Su-Chi: Why would you ever not play these cards? They are simply too strong and go in every single deck that drafts them. That isn't interesting at all as its a no brainer to draft them and a no brainer to play them, and they're actually way better than the baseline four drop (~Hill giant) which actually require colours.
Serra Angel,Sengir Vampire, Mahamotti Djinn: Big flyers that are amazing on defense or offense do not make good games. They make games where everything that happened before is pointless if your opponent doesn't have a piece of removal in hand ready to go. People who resolved these cards almost never lost even if they were behind when they resolved them. That's not an interesting or skillful card, that's bad (or at least uninteresting) gameplay.
Autumn Willow, Juzam Djinn: Juzam I'll be honest I sold mine because it got so valuable otherwise I'd probably have one in. Ironically I bought for about $200, sold for ~$200 (buylist) and now its worth like 3 times that. I just don't like having my cube be loaded with expensive cards (all hallow's eve is such a unique effect so I've kept it). Autumn Willow is close enough to the power line that I could put it in, I just don't think that hexproof is a fun or interesting mechanic whereas the flowstone on shambling strider actually creates some tension in investing mana, getting blown out by removal, splashing red, etc.
Hypnotic Spectre: this is in the vein of royal assassin and sorceress queen for cards you think are fun until you play against them again. When someone plays this t3 and you don't have an answer you pretty much lose. Wind Drake would be a very strong card in this cube/era - getting hit with random discard each turn while also getting poked by wind drake is brutal. The best out to facing an early flyer is to just try to race it until/unless you find an answer - but spectre screws your plans, strips you of answers and resources, and pretty much makes sure you cannot win while it clocks you down. I know, I loved the t1 ritual-spectre as much as the next guy, but when your deck can't have 4 lightning bolts or 4 swords it might as well be Pack Rat because that's about what your odds of winning against it are.
Pump Knights: I had one of each colour pumpknight in for a long time, but protection from X is so randomly disgusting that it absolutely needs to be employed in small doses in the cube. It's the same reason I don't put in Sea Sprite or Mountain Yeti. The Black/White Knights are enough for that iconic two mana hoser, and way less gross when peeled off the top in the late game since they can't stonewall a bunch of 3/3s and 4/4s with pump+first strike. The black/white knights are still amazing cards in the format and first pickable, but at least they don't look just as gross on turn 6 as they do on turn 2. But mostly this is about limiting the # of protection from x cards because those can too often just be unbeatable in a given matchup.
Thunder Spirit is in the cube - legit first pick as a tough wall that is also an evasive beater, but in comparison to the things above there are more answers to it and you have way more time to find those answers or just race. Getting bigger than a Serra Angel is tough. Getting bigger than thunder spirit means most 4 drops (Hill Giant standard).
Jayemdae Tome - has floated in and out. I have limited slots for artifacts and in the end I actually dropped this because I didn't think anyone would ever play it. It's expensive (8 mana for a card, 12 mana for 2 cards, etc) but games are slow. It could totally find its way back in, but mostly a question of what would I cut for it - something else has to unimpress or feel less interesting to make room. Take a card like conch horn which looks dumb and bad, but it does cute things with the various "top of library" cards or shuffle effects, and can always just be used to smooth out your draws. That's the kind of effect that is great for the cube - underwhelming default effect, with some modest upside when linked up with a Sindbad or Phyrexian Devourer.
All in all its a case of not being able to have your cake and eat it too - plan A was an old school cube with powerful iconic cards that would be a blast to play, unfortunately those very cards make for really lame un-interactive games. My hope is that some of that iconic feel is still there with stuff like Thallid, Hill Giant, Killer Bees, Hand of Justice, Bolt/Swords/Terror/Counterspell, while moving the gameplay to something way more intereactive and fun than just slamming Shivan Dragons and Ifh-Bíff Efreets at one another.
Hopefully that makes some sense, if I seem off on any of that by all means let me know and esp if other cards stick out as OP. You're making me really think Braingeyser should go and probably Outpost too and that I should give Jayemdae Tome another look, so I am grateful for the thoughts and will absolutely consider the stuff you suggested where it aligns with the cube philosophy!
You're not "way off" ...we just want polar opposite things from our drafting experiences. There are a lot of included cards that seem far too good considering your intentionally-imposed limitations, and so many exclusions that are great cards in the Encyclopedia Magic environment that are so sad to see missing.
"Fun" is clearly a subjective definition here. Pearled Unicorn and Hill Giant just aren't fun cards to us (and most players that love Magic that resemble competitive old formats) and there are so many unique, interesting, powerful (and most importantly, ICONIC) cards that are unfortunately sidelined.
Fair enough. I'd just note that while some folks were maybe playing timetwisters and time vaults in the mid 90s, others were making decks out of every card they had and thinking Craw Wurm was amazing. Nobody in my high school had lotuses or original duals, so I get a more nostalgic experience overall out of Hand of Justice and Ball Lightning than Time Walk. It's definitely unfortunate to cut the 4th edition bombs like fireball and serra angel as many games back then were won with those - but they just translate too poorly from even a crappy kitchen table constructed format over to a limited/cube format for the same era. As far as I know nobody was doing revised/4th ed drafts back then, if they were they would probably remember most of those cards the same way we remember Pack Rat and renegade freighter today
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I'm not referring to just power. Serra Angels and Juggernauts and Shivan Dragons and Fireballs were the kings of both the kitchen tables and the FLGS tournaments ...those are the kinds of cards I wouldn't want to cube without. I understand the unpowered bit, but other cards are just so nostalgic and encompassed both the competitive and relaxed spirits of early Magic.
I hear you - its just when we were kitchen tabling you could have lots of answers to a Shivan/Serra or be fast enough that Fireball was mediocre. When you translate to cube those things simply aren't true anymore, so those powerful flyers in particular just become frustrating ways to lose a game that was probably interesting up until then.
I could imagine someday changing my mind on the tradeoff and preferring to have some "ruined" games in order to put those badass cards back in, but at the moment I think they're too toxic to the gameplay and a terrible way to lose games ><
I've played countless games of classic cube magic, and never had a draft experience "ruined" by a Shivan Dragon. But clearly you have a very specific idea in mind for what you want. All the best.
I'd be very surprised if you actually never had a game of limited completely turned around by slamming a bomb mythic/rare - that is the dynamic in question (not literally Shivan Dragon), and the question is whether or not that is a good or bad feature of limited magic. Which is I think fundamentally a matter of how much you like luck/chance to be a factor in your games.
If you like having swingy hard-to-stop cards then you probably never blinked when your opponent creamed you with Glorybringer at prerelease. If you like to think its your decisions in deckbuilding and gameplay that will determine your result, then few things could be worse than watching somebody turn that card sideways on turn 5. It's a card that virtually no amount of synergy or tight play will beat - you either have the answer in hand at the moment it resolves or you more-than-likely just lose the game regardless of whatever else you had been doing.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
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Glorybringer is infinitely better in AKH limited than Shivan Dragon is in a classic cube. I've played classic format cubes. Extensively. And actually managed 3 different ones. There's a difference between wanting to play an unpowered format and cubing with Hill Giant.
You have lots of cards in this cube that have no business being in the list if Sengir Vampire "ruins" games.
There's a balance between understandably wanting to ban Ancestral Recall and playing Pearled Unicorn. That's the kind of magic I'd strive to create for a format centered around nostalgia. That's the universe of Shivans and Serras and Juggernauts. There's no reason why they should create a feel bad format any more than half the cards in this list could. You say you want it to boil down to skill and not card quality?? ...Tell that to the guy curving from Scathe Zonbies into Hill Giant while staring down a Serendib Efreet the turn after he just got hit by Hymn to Tourach.
I understand the design approach you're trying to take, but I think the execution looks haphazard. Half the banned cards should definitely be allowed to go in, or a bunch of cards in the cube need to come out. By the time completely unplayable cards are going in because the powerlevel has come down so much ...the format hasn't really become any more enjoyable. If anything, it's become significantly less so.
Just so you know I am seriously listening to your arguments and considering whether I've gone too far or in the wrong direction with the cube - not just going in circles or trying to "win" an argument here. As I mentioned in OP this has been a really solo effort where you just get in the echo chamber of every decision you make seeming like a good one.
So if I may set aside the specifics for a moment and look at the principles and see if I'm wrong/off somewhere:
I think we would agree that cards like pack rat and glorybringer do not make for great games of limited Magic. I would say the problem with these cards is that they present a very small window for an answer, and in terms of answers blocking rarely works, racing is unlikely to work unless you're already very far ahead, and removal must be in your hand or on top of your deck to generally resolve before you're so far behind that you probably lose regardless. Ideally a cube presents few or no cards that routinely lead to this situation (you must have removal in hand or on top of your deck or you lose when the card resolves).
The experience I had with dragon/vampire/angel/djinn and such was that they were exactly that situation. They come down turn 5-6 and if you don't have one of a relatively small # of removal spells in hand or the corresponding bomb the game goes south real fast.
I do wonder if you say "encyclopedia" or "classic" or your "3 cubes" what sets you're including. I've drawn the line at alliances here. During the more powerful version I did extend to Weatherlight to gain more removal/power but with dialing back the power I was able to cut that block again. But within Alpha to Alliances these are the only removal spells I see that I'm not currently using that would kill a 4/4 flyer:
So unless I'm missing cards here, I could increase the removal count by ~14 at most and of that 11 of the cards have proven problematic for other reasons. In particular the X damage spells are gross as both surgical sweepers and game-ending burn, and the control magic effects are gross because there are only like 4 cards in the whole era of sets that will kill enchantments.
I think the net effect you'd get would be bringing in a dozen huge powerful 4-7 CMC threats and a dozen huge powerful sweepers/burn/removal to answer them. While theoretically one answers the other I'd expect the more likely outcome to just be these 24 cards scattered around and just randomly stealing games. Does that feel like Glorybringer? Or is that just acceptable variance where most likely everyone will have 1-2 haymakers they hope to draw (i.e how pretty much every normal draft/sealed goes).
I'm thinking my best bet is to just decide what 24-30 cards I would reintroduce to "power up" again and what I'd cut for them, and see again what it feels like putting those back into games.
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There are definitely ways to make the iconic monsters playable, and increase the overall powerlevel of the cube without it creeping into "powered" territory.
Ive had al of those in except oubliette and island. And sorry the missing text was "removal that kills a 44 flyer" youre right I missed some but cards that act as recurring removal like assassin, queen, preacher, king, icy and maze just introduce a whole other layer of "must kill" threats so they dont really fix anything - sure they stop shivan, but they are just as if not more oppressive themselves. Also at this point every noncreature spell in black would be removal to add everything :s
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I disagree with the notion that must-kill creatures are bad for the format. It's only a problem in a format with no removal and no other must-kill threats. There's always going to be a "best card". Just don't make that card be Hill Giant, or you're going to cultivate a format that isn't any fun to play. Right now, you don't have enough "must-kill" creatures in the cube. So the one player that resolves one is just going to win. That isn't the case nearly as often when all players have access to good cards. Remember, other good creatures are "answers" to good creatures themselves. The more you play, the less of a problem they'll be. But right now, the cube features dozens of cards that would never, ever get put into a deck. That's a significantly bigger problem than having good cards is. As it stands now, there's an odd mixture of bad cards with some complete bombs smattered in. Players that can adequately sift through the garbage should be able to construct decks that can't really be beat. Increasing the card quality will help bring things back into parity.
There are adequate threats and answers in Classic Magic to be able to run good creatures without it ruining drafts. In my opinion, the only thing that ruins drafts is replacing fun, interesting and iconic creatures with Pearled Unicorns and Scathe Zombies. THAT, is what will "ruin" games in a format that should be a nostalgic blast to play.
Craw Giant > Force of Nature
Radjan Spirit > Lhurgoyf
Venomous Breath > Hurricane
Brine Hag > Prodigal Sorcerer
Silver Erne > Azure Drake
Wind Spirit > Air Elemental
Homarid Warrior > Mahamoti Djinn
Ray of Command > Control Magic
Errant Minion > Braingeyser
Minion of Leshrac > Lord of the Pit
Foul Familiar > Sengir Vampire
Funeral March > Ashes to Ashes
Impact so far looks a bit less bad than I worried about. It is nice to see those big iconic cards come around again in mock draft, but it also detracts from trying to do anything synergistic like goblins or auras or land destruction. Will give it more cycles on cubetutor and think about it but may end up keeping some of these changes but not all. I'm okay with a few big splashy flyers - I'm not so sure that balance/geddon are a good idea.
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The type of gameplay you are trying to encourage IMHO is really fun. My 2 cents on your list... I'd cut this sucker down to 360. Get rid of your 90 worst cards. I'd try very hard to reduce the variance between your best and worst cards (Craw Wurm does not look good next to Shivan Dragon). Doing that will increase the quality of your draft and it will make drafted decks more competitive. This is the basic philosophy that most midrange lower powered rare lists tend to follow and it makes for a very competitive and fun format.
Limiting your card pool to early Magic disadvantages you somewhat (clunky mechanics and limited card pool), but I see the appeal. And power level is all relative. In a list like this, Serra Angel is sweet. It's unplayable jank in my lists but that's irrelevant to what you are doing here.
It is nice to see those big iconic cards come around again [...] I'm not so sure that balance/geddon are a good idea.
Perhaps not. I'd focus on balancing ways to play with the iconic creatures first (adequate removal/answers/other threats) before reintroducing all the most powerful spells.
I like most of those changes quite a bit. You might want to keep Ray of Command, it can be a good answer to a big resolved threat by the opponent, and you may want to add in Oubliette. It'll be nice to have at least 1 more good 1-for-1 removal spell that can handle the big critters.
After a lot of mock drafting I settled on these as the key changes to test. Each colour picks up an iconic bomb creature - black sort of gets 2 although lord of the pit was flip-flopping with minion of leshrac so was already kind of in there.
Minion of Leshrac > Lord of the Pit
Foul Familiar > Sengir Vampire
Phantom Monster > Mahamoti Djinn
Craw Giant > Force of Nature
Orc General > Shivan Dragon
Kjeldoran Phalanx > Serra Angel
Copper Tablet > Juggernaut
And a handful of spell swaps that improve answers to bombs.
In the end 7 bombs and 6 good answer shouldn't warp the cube too much from where it was. The original bigger change I tried just overloaded it too much from where it was balance-wise and every deck I test-drafted was goodstuff.dec with the minimal chaff required to dig for bombs. With just 7 bombs in a 450 cube you may not see any, you may hate pick them, and you may just not draw them. They can even throw off your draft by getting you to jump colours and build a weaker deck.
Will run with this change for a while and hope that gives the best-of-both-worlds experience: iconic cards + great gameplay
Edit: Tried these changes for a week or so. They were everything I worried they would be. Having decks and games warped around giant flyers is lousy gameplay and invalidates every other possible strategy in the cube. The gap between the average card and a shivan/serra/sengir/mahamotti is just too huge. The games are way better when the only massive flyers out there are 8 mana 3-colour elder dragons, and fewer dumb free wins off bombs makes it worth the effort to try and do things like night soil + jokulhaups or jalum tome + all hallow's eve.
With my cube it's tough to have enough removal for enchantments and artifacts; mine is the Nostalgia Cube (ABU to AL as well). It's a tough balance. Interesting list.
This is my "retrocube" - cards from Alpha to Alliances, supports up to 10 players. I started it with all the best cards including original duals and stuff like balance and mind twist, but the gameplay was not very good and it was hard to balance. Over time I have kept dialing the power level farther and farther down in order to create the type of games I want to play. That is, games where decisions and skill matter, and you need to leverage small synergies and tricks to outplay your opponent. If we can do that while also playing Pearled Unicorn and Nicol Bolas then all the better. I've got all the old mechanics - Banding, Rampage, Cumulative Upkeep and cantrips and even a chaos orb for the dexterity check (collectors edition but I still wince a bit at seeing it thrown around ;p).
I have spent a lot of time revising this to where its at and feel its close to ideal, but its really been a solo project so I'd like any thoughts/feedback. I don't need lists of abstractly more powerful cards - I know balance is stronger than truce, more looking for thoughts on how to make themes pop and gameplay to be interesting and not autopilot dumb, or to identify cards that seem too strong against the rest.
Some examples of cards I've cut recently for being too strong: demonic hordes, skull catapault, personal incarnation, hail storm. I'm especially hard on artifacts - I don't like nobrainer first picks like serrated arrows or aeolipile.
My current watchlist is whether breeding pit and caribou range are too strong for a neverending stream of bodies or if they are reigned in by the land destruction and various evasive dudes, and whether orcish artillery is too good for making combat math impossible on the opponent.
As a reference the cube thus includes these sets:
Alpha/Beta, Revised
The Dark, Legends, Arabian Nights, Antiquities
Homelands, Fallen Empires
Ice age, Alliances
and maybe worth mentioning 4th edition and chronicles although these are all reprints from the sets above.
Some gameplay/design notes:
* There is limited removal to go around, which means cheap creatures shouldn't be "must kill" (no Royal Assassins)
* "Pingers" were very strong so I removed most of them including Prodigal Sorcerer.
* Aggro decks are possible but games are generally slow - you almost always get to 5+ mana and 8 is not unreasonable.
* I tried to really limit the quantity and power of creatures at cmc 5-7 so games arent just stall-into-6-drop every time. Elder Dragons should be the endgame for that approach
* There isn't much card advantage beyond the various cantrips ("draw a card at the beginning of the next turns upkeep")
* There is limited mana fixing so "splashing" is not trivial.
* There are limited answers to enchantments and artifacts so they cannot be "must kill" (e.g. no Enduring Renewal or Aladdin's Ring)
Some of the concepts I tried to embed:
* Auras/Enchants (Rabid Wombat, Verduran Enchantress)
* Reanimation/Discard (Dwarven Armorer, Animate Dead, Nature's Blessing, Hymn of Rebirth)
* Mill (Millstone, Ashnod's Cylix, Howling Mine)
* Top card of library manipulation (Sinbad, Petra Sphinx, Phyrexian Devourer, Conch Horn, Orcish Spy)
* Land Destruction (Stone Rain, Blight, Fumarole)
* Forced card draw (also a way to mill) (Black Vise, Storm Seeker, Wheel/Diminishing Returns, Underworld Dreams)
* Goblins (Goblin King, Grenade, Chirugeon)
* Monocolor payoffs (Crusade, Nightmare, Eternal Flame, Killer Bees, Homarid Spawning Bed)
* "The Dream": T1 Mind Bomb, T2 Animate Dead on Polar Kraken
* Land untapping: (mystic might, forbidden lore, hot springs, desert, ley druid, elder druid, twiddle)
* Jokulhaups: (Night Soil, Iceberg, False Demise)
* Land Type Effects (Dandan, landwalk, Mystic Compass, Jinx, Phantasmal Terrain)
* Sacrifice/swarm (Thallid, Sengir Autocrat, Brine Shaman, Thelonite Druid)
I'm sure others I've missed but running out of steam here ;p
Cubetutor list: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/3049
List here (less visually appropriate than cubetutor since it shows more recent reprints and doesnt capture the "feel" properly):
1x Abu Ja'far
1x Benalish Hero
1x Camel
1x Icatian Infantry
1x Icatian Javelineers
1x Icatian Priest
1x Royal Herbalist
1x Savannah Lions
1x Tundra Wolves
1x Amrou Kithkin
1x Aysen Bureaucrats
1x Icatian Lieutenant
1x Kjeldoran Knight
1x Mesa Falcon
1x Mesa Pegasus
1x Osai Vultures
1x Pikemen
1x Samite Healer
1x White Knight
1x Abbey Matron
1x Beast Walkers
1x D'Avenant Archer
1x Enchanted Being
1x Juniper Order Advocate
1x Keepers of the Faith
1x Pearled Unicorn
1x Thunder Spirit
1x Wild Aesthir
1x Angry Mob
1x Carrier Pigeons
1x Kjeldoran Elite Guard
1x Kjeldoran Escort
1x Kjeldoran Home Guard
1x Lost Order of Jarkeld
1x War Elephant
1x Hazduhr the Abbot
1x Icatian Phalanx
1x Kjeldoran Royal Guard
1x Petra Sphinx
1x Righteous Avengers
1x Hand of Justice
1x Kjeldoran Phalanx
1x Akron Legionnaire
White Instant
1x Death Ward
1x Heal
1x Righteousness
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Warning
1x Disenchant
1x Divine Offering
1x Errand of Duty
1x Formation
1x Reprisal
1x Army of Allah
1x Exile
1x Reverse Damage
1x Truce
1x Fire and Brimstone
White Sorcery
1x Resurrection
1x Wrath of God
1x Icatian Town
White Enchantment
1x Holy Armor
1x Holy Strength
1x Inheritance
1x Blessing
1x Crusade
1x Kjeldoran Pride
1x Serra Bestiary
1x Jihad
1x Angelic Voices
1x Caribou Range
1x Divine Transformation
1x Serra Aviary
Blue Creature
1x Electric Eel
1x Flying Men
1x Merfolk of the Pearl Trident
1x Dandan
1x Giant Tortoise
1x Lord of Atlantis
1x Phantasmal Mount
1x Phantasmal Sphere
1x River Merfolk
1x Sindbad
1x Soldevi Sage
1x Storm Crow
1x Zephyr Falcon
1x Zuran Enchanter
1x Apprentice Wizard
1x Glacial Wall
1x Homarid
1x Illusionary Presence
1x Krovikan Sorcerer
1x Musician
1x Reef Pirates
1x Serendib Efreet
1x Soldevi Heretic
1x Wall of Air
1x Benthic Explorers
1x Brine Hag
1x Clone
1x Narwhal
1x Phantasmal Forces
1x Silver Erne
1x Wall of Wonder
1x Homarid Warrior
1x Pirate Ship
1x Psionic Entity
1x Sea Spirit
1x Vesuvan Doppelganger
1x Wind Spirit
1x Sea Serpent
1x Deep Spawn
1x Polar Kraken
Blue Instant
1x Brainstorm
1x Ray of Erasure
1x Twiddle
1x Unsummon
1x Arcane Denial
1x Boomerang
1x Counterspell
1x Jinx
1x Remove Soul
1x Force Void
1x Psionic Blast
1x Deflection
1x Ray of Command
1x Spell Blast
Blue Sorcery
1x Mind Bomb
1x Portent
1x Forget
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Juxtapose
1x Braingeyser
Blue Enchantment
1x Mystic Might
1x Unstable Mutation
1x Homarid Spawning Bed
1x Invisibility
1x Phantasmal Terrain
1x Psychic Venom
1x Stasis
1x Sunken City
1x Viscerid Armor
1x Errant Minion
1x False Demise
1x Merseine
1x Iceberg
Black Creature
1x Initiates of the Ebon Hand
1x Insidious Bookworms
1x Stone-Throwing Devils
1x Vampire Bats
1x Basal Thrull
1x Black Knight
1x Bog Imp
1x Brine Shaman
1x Cyclopean Mummy
1x Erg Raiders
1x Ghost Hounds
1x Hasran Ogress
1x Soldevi Adnate
1x Diseased Vermin
1x El-Hajjaj
1x Foul Familiar
1x Frozen Shade
1x Junun Efreet
1x Khabal Ghoul
1x Mindstab Thrull
1x Mole Worms
1x Necrite
1x Nettling Imp
1x Scathe Zombies
1x Wall of Shadows
1x Abyssal Specter
1x Balduvian Dead
1x Banshee
1x Carrion Ants
1x Derelor
1x Hell's Caretaker
1x Phantasmal Fiend
1x Scavenging Ghoul
1x Sengir Autocrat
1x Uncle Istvan
1x Eater of the Dead
1x Grandmother Sengir
1x The Wretched
1x Ebon Praetor
1x Nightmare
1x Minion of Leshrac
1x Dark Ritual
1x Terror
1x Dark Banishing
1x Feast or Famine
1x Howl from Beyond
Black Sorcery
1x Raise Dead
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Dry Spell
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Sinkhole
1x Soul Exchange
1x Mind Ravel
1x Pox
1x All Hallow's Eve
1x Ritual of the Machine
1x Hellfire
1x Drain Life
1x Soul Burn
Black Enchantment
1x Unholy Strength
1x Animate Dead
1x Bad Moon
1x Blight
1x Casting of Bones
1x Funeral March
1x Krovikan Fetish
1x Krovikan Plague
1x Phyrexian Boon
1x Underworld Dreams
1x Breeding Pit
1x Cursed Land
1x Feast of the Unicorn
1x Takklemaggot
Red Creature
1x Dwarven Armorer
1x Goblin Balloon Brigade
1x Goblin Chirurgeon
1x Goblin Digging Team
1x Goblins of the Flarg
1x Kird Ape
1x Mons's Goblin Raiders
1x Orcish Captain
1x Orcish Lumberjack
1x Orcish Spy
1x Soldier of Fortune
1x Atog
1x Dwarven Lieutenant
1x Dwarven Soldier
1x Ironclaw Orcs
1x Orcish Librarian
1x Wall of Earth
1x Ball Lightning
1x Dwarven Warriors
1x Fire Drake
1x Goblin Flotilla
1x Goblin Hero
1x Goblin King
1x Hurloon Minotaur
1x Orc General
1x Orcish Artillery
1x Rogue Skycaptain
1x Sabretooth Tiger
1x Storm Shaman
1x Balduvian Horde
1x Chaos Harlequin
1x Crimson Manticore
1x Goblin Mutant
1x Goblin Snowman
1x Hill Giant
1x Keldon Warlord
1x Stone Giant
1x Ambush Party
1x Balduvian War-Makers
1x Fire Elemental
1x Frost Giant
1x Rock Hydra
Red Instant
1x False Orders
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Panic
1x Blood Lust
1x Fork
1x Guerrilla Tactics
1x Incinerate
1x Flare
1x Fissure
Red Sorcery
1x Goblin Grenade
1x Mana Clash
1x Pyroclasm
1x Pillage
1x Stone Rain
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Eternal Flame
1x Retribution
1x Disintegrate
1x Jokulhaups
1x Meteor Shower
Red Enchantment
1x Firebreathing
1x Immolation
1x Veteran's Voice
1x Giant Strength
1x Raging River
1x Aggression
1x Bestial Fury
1x Mana Flare
1x Orcish Mine
1x Orcish Oriflamme
1x Conquer
Green Creature
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Elves of Deep Shadow
1x Folk of An-Havva
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Scavenger Folk
1x Thallid
1x Timber Wolves
1x Tinder Wall
1x Argothian Pixies
1x Elvish Archers
1x Elvish Farmer
1x Freyalise Supplicant
1x Grizzly Bears
1x Whirling Dervish
1x Wyluli Wolf
1x An-Havva Constable
1x Chub Toad
1x Dire Wolves
1x Elvish Ranger
1x Killer Bees
1x Leaping Lizard
1x Ley Druid
1x Pale Bears
1x Pyknite
1x Thallid Devourer
1x Thelonite Druid
1x Verduran Enchantress
1x Daughter of Autumn
1x Elder Druid
1x Erhnam Djinn
1x Fungusaur
1x Rabid Wombat
1x Radjan Spirit
1x War Mammoth
1x Wolverine Pack
1x Deadly Insect
1x Durkwood Boars
1x Folk of the Pines
1x Gorilla Berserkers
1x Thicket Basilisk
1x Craw Wurm
1x Shambling Strider
1x Craw Giant
Green Instant
1x Camouflage
1x Giant Growth
1x Sandstorm
1x Shrink
1x Undergrowth
1x Reincarnation
1x Stampede
1x Storm Seeker
1x Venomous Breath
1x Channel
1x Regrowth
1x Ice Storm
1x Renewal
1x Tranquility
1x Untamed Wilds
1x Desert Twister
1x Stream of Life
1x Winter Blast
Green Enchantment
1x Carapace
1x Instill Energy
1x Wild Growth
1x Aspect of Wolf
1x Gaea's Touch
1x Hot Springs
1x Night Soil
1x Sylvan Library
1x Forbidden Lore
1x Lure
1x Cyclone
1x Roots
Azorius
1x Ayesha Tanaka
1x Hunding Gjornersen
1x Wings of Aesthir
Dimir
1x Ramirez DePietro
1x Ramses Overdark
1x Lim-Dul's Vault
Rakdos
1x Marsh Goblins
1x Lim-Dul's Paladin
1x Fumarole
Gruul
1x Scarwood Goblins
1x Tuknir Deathlock
1x Stormbind
Selesnya
1x Kei Takahashi
1x Hymn of Rebirth
1x Nature's Blessing
Jund
1x Xira Arien
1x Vaevictis Asmadi
1x Misfortune
Naya
1x Johan
1x Palladia-Mors
1x Fiery Justice
Bant
1x Phelddagrif
1x Storm Spirit
1x Arcades Sabboth
Esper
1x Halfdane
1x Dakkon Blackblade
1x Chromium
Grixis
1x Lord of Tresserhorn
1x Nicol Bolas
1x Elemental Augury
Colourless Artifact Creature
1x Shield Sphere
1x Roterothopter
1x Battering Ram
1x Aesthir Glider
1x Dragon Engine
1x Onulet
1x Urza's Engine
1x Phyrexian Devourer
1x Shapeshifter
1x Mishra's War Machine
1x Colossus of Sardia
Colourless Artifact
1x Fountain of Youth
1x Black Vise
1x The Rack
1x Ashnod's Cylix
1x Chaos Orb
1x Conch Horn
1x Copper Tablet
1x Fellwar Stone
1x Howling Mine
1x Illusionary Mask
1x Jandor's Saddlebags
1x Millstone
1x Mystic Compass
1x Scarab of the Unseen
1x Tawnos's Weaponry
1x Basalt Monolith
1x Disrupting Scepter
1x Jalum Tome
1x Sol Grail
1x Zelyon Sword
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Gauntlets of Chaos
1x Sword of the Ages
Colourless Land
1x Adarkar Wastes
1x Arena
1x Balduvian Trading Post
1x Brushland
1x City of Brass
1x Desert
1x Hammerheim
1x Heart of Yavimaya
1x Karplusan Forest
1x Kjeldoran Outpost
1x Lake of the Dead
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Pendelhaven
1x Soldevi Excavations
1x Strip Mine
1x Sulfurous Springs
1x Thawing Glaciers
1x Tolaria
1x Underground River
1x Urborg
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* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
That being said, this list feels too intentionally underpowered for my liking. I've played and managed a lot of old school cubes, and without all the best classic cards in the mix, it just wasn't an enjoyable format for us.
Also, I don't understand your powerlevel ban metrics at all. Considering banning Breeding Pit for being too good, but Kjeldoran Outpost is somehow okay? Skull Catapult is too good, but Chaos Orb is fine? A random 6-mana critter like Personal Incarnation is unbeatable but it's okay to draw 4+ cards off Braingeyser instead? Can't make heads or tails of what you're trying to do here...
Lastly, there are a ton of fantastic old school cards that are left out, and I can't really figure out why. I can't imagine them being too good, but they're far better than a lot of the stuff in the cube. The rest of the WW and BB jump knights, Thunder Spirit, Serra Angel, Serendib Djinn, Mahomati Djinn, Hypnotic Specter, Juzam Djinn, Sengir Vampire, Autumn Willow, Juggernaut, Su-Chi ...like if Serendib Efreet and Erhnam Djinn are somehow allowable, where are all the rest of the playable creatures?
You mentioned in the OP that there isn't enough removal to allow good creatures to be played, but you aren't playing all the playable removal spells... In fact, lots of them seem to be missing.
Jayemdae Tome is a staple of classic Magic; I assume it was cut for being too good? (Not sure, since you allow Disrupting Scepter.) And not just Tome, there are tons of format-defining cards that seem to be omitted. They're so critical to the Classic Magic experience that I can only assume they've somehow been banned?
Like, I love Encyclopedia Magic, but this list looks to be missing a lot of what makes that format desirable to play for guys like me that played Magic back in 1995.
I hope it plays exactly to what you and your playgroup are looking for, since that's all that matters. But for us, we wanted to play with all the good cards from that era; without them, we lost interest in the format pretty quickly. Just my $0.02.
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As you probably gathered from the OP, I have no interest in powered/broken gameplay. I'll take my lumps in Modern where people do crazy fast and broken things because I get to pick the 75 cards I go to war with; but for cube I want interactive games where decisions matter and you have time to find a way out of sticky situations. My initial version was what you described a bit above as the powered equivalent (no actual power 9, but original duals, mind twist, balance, geddon, shivan/serra/sengir etc). I thought it'd just be wicked to have mid-90s powerhouses in my deck again - and it was, but the gameplay was so bad nobody would want to play it a second time. The crazy strong creatures would just crush games too easily, and the crazy strong spells weren't far behind. Sure you might control magic that shivan dragon - trumping their bomb, but most of the time those cards were just going uncontested and destroying games without ever running into each other. I just dialed back the "icons" from those broken cards down to the crap you started out with in magic - grizzly bears and hill giants.
So what I'm trying to do isn't easy and I could very well be off the mark, so I really do appreciate some criticism/questions - I want the cube to have interesting draft choices and interactive skillful gameplay - I think that is acheived by things like no cheap must-answer threats, a limited # of high CMC threats, and a low average power level that allows otherwise mediocre synergies to provide actual value.
1. Breeding Pit vs Kjeldoran Outpost
So first of all I consider Outpost a first pick in most packs and it could very well be too strong. What I think makes it probably okay is the availability of land destruction in the cube (mostly Jund - but U has some good answers too like Boomerang, Psychic Venom, and Phantasmal Terrain). Caribou Range seems probably okay as well between being vulnerable to LD, costing 7 mana for the first token, and making 0/1s instead of 1/1s. Breeding Pit is in between - its 0/1s, but its only BB and there are very few outs to enchantments (tranquility, disenchant, desert twister, disk, orb). There are also less pump effects (bad moon) compared to W (voices, crusade, jihad). What I want Pit to do is fuel things like Minion of Leshrac without being just oppressive in other situations.
2. Skull Catapault vs Chaos Orb
This is surprising, because chaos orb is actually a joke and a waste of 4 mana 75%+ of the time. Maybe you have the mad cardflipping skills, but for most people its the first time they have ever tried to flip a card from a foot and have it land on something. I will throw the card in for the fun of running it and the spectacle of the flip, but a good card it is absolutely not. But more to the point on Catapault, colourless cards are dangerous because they go everywhere - and having all your creatures turn into shocks is no joke. I took it out largely to make Pit/Caribou Range less potentially broken, but everytime I have played this card it has been an all star allowing me to burn people out from 8 life or less, sac things with cumulative upkeep for value, get free value off chump blocks, etc.
3. Personal Incarnation vs Braingeyser
Braingeyser is another card I consider a first pick pretty much everytime. You may be on the mark here that I am underestimating how powerful it realy is and that its just a Mind Twist / Balance in disguise and should be cut in the interest of "nothing broken/unbeatable". For a while I really struggled to have a reason to play Blue - it slowly reacquired Ray of Command and Serendib Efreet and Glacial Wall to make it better - perhaps bringing those cards back means Geyser should go. As for Personal Incarnation I think you would have to look again at how someone can kill a 6/6 that generally will not die to damage. You're talking about Swords, Terror, Wrath of God/Hellfire, and Dark Banishing. A six mana 6/6 puts Craw Wurm (a good standard for what a beefy body should be here) to shame in a colour with no right to that territory. The ability to redirect damage means you never defeat it in combat either. The drawback also almost never happens due to all of the above - when there are only a few cards that actually kill it in the cube the risk is near-zero of getting blown out and losing 10 life or whatever. I left this one in way past the Sengir/Serra cut, but eventually I realized that it should give way to something like Kjeldoran Phalanx or Hazduhr the Abbot for an appropriate "white fatty"
Let me start at the end. Serendib and Ernham have drawbacks. Assuming Serendib is swinging you're trading 3 life for 1 each turn, a 2 point net which is wind-drake-ish. It's also a first pick in blue. I go back and forth over whether this should be Azure Drake or Phantom Monster - but in the end I like the drawback that keeps it from "walling up" the way an Azure Drake can. I love phantasmal forces here as the perfect balance for a blue flyer - hits hard, sucks at defense, dies to a stiff breeze. When the flyers can also play great defense they feel too gross. Ernham is similar - if you are giving forestwalk to a 2/2 you're trading 4 life for 2 - not that amazing.
Juggernaut, Su-Chi: Why would you ever not play these cards? They are simply too strong and go in every single deck that drafts them. That isn't interesting at all as its a no brainer to draft them and a no brainer to play them, and they're actually way better than the baseline four drop (~Hill giant) which actually require colours.
Serra Angel,Sengir Vampire, Mahamotti Djinn: Big flyers that are amazing on defense or offense do not make good games. They make games where everything that happened before is pointless if your opponent doesn't have a piece of removal in hand ready to go. People who resolved these cards almost never lost even if they were behind when they resolved them. That's not an interesting or skillful card, that's bad (or at least uninteresting) gameplay.
Autumn Willow, Juzam Djinn: Juzam I'll be honest I sold mine because it got so valuable otherwise I'd probably have one in. Ironically I bought for about $200, sold for ~$200 (buylist) and now its worth like 3 times that. I just don't like having my cube be loaded with expensive cards (all hallow's eve is such a unique effect so I've kept it). Autumn Willow is close enough to the power line that I could put it in, I just don't think that hexproof is a fun or interesting mechanic whereas the flowstone on shambling strider actually creates some tension in investing mana, getting blown out by removal, splashing red, etc.
Hypnotic Spectre: this is in the vein of royal assassin and sorceress queen for cards you think are fun until you play against them again. When someone plays this t3 and you don't have an answer you pretty much lose. Wind Drake would be a very strong card in this cube/era - getting hit with random discard each turn while also getting poked by wind drake is brutal. The best out to facing an early flyer is to just try to race it until/unless you find an answer - but spectre screws your plans, strips you of answers and resources, and pretty much makes sure you cannot win while it clocks you down. I know, I loved the t1 ritual-spectre as much as the next guy, but when your deck can't have 4 lightning bolts or 4 swords it might as well be Pack Rat because that's about what your odds of winning against it are.
Pump Knights: I had one of each colour pumpknight in for a long time, but protection from X is so randomly disgusting that it absolutely needs to be employed in small doses in the cube. It's the same reason I don't put in Sea Sprite or Mountain Yeti. The Black/White Knights are enough for that iconic two mana hoser, and way less gross when peeled off the top in the late game since they can't stonewall a bunch of 3/3s and 4/4s with pump+first strike. The black/white knights are still amazing cards in the format and first pickable, but at least they don't look just as gross on turn 6 as they do on turn 2. But mostly this is about limiting the # of protection from x cards because those can too often just be unbeatable in a given matchup.
Thunder Spirit is in the cube - legit first pick as a tough wall that is also an evasive beater, but in comparison to the things above there are more answers to it and you have way more time to find those answers or just race. Getting bigger than a Serra Angel is tough. Getting bigger than thunder spirit means most 4 drops (Hill Giant standard).
Jayemdae Tome - has floated in and out. I have limited slots for artifacts and in the end I actually dropped this because I didn't think anyone would ever play it. It's expensive (8 mana for a card, 12 mana for 2 cards, etc) but games are slow. It could totally find its way back in, but mostly a question of what would I cut for it - something else has to unimpress or feel less interesting to make room. Take a card like conch horn which looks dumb and bad, but it does cute things with the various "top of library" cards or shuffle effects, and can always just be used to smooth out your draws. That's the kind of effect that is great for the cube - underwhelming default effect, with some modest upside when linked up with a Sindbad or Phyrexian Devourer.
All in all its a case of not being able to have your cake and eat it too - plan A was an old school cube with powerful iconic cards that would be a blast to play, unfortunately those very cards make for really lame un-interactive games. My hope is that some of that iconic feel is still there with stuff like Thallid, Hill Giant, Killer Bees, Hand of Justice, Bolt/Swords/Terror/Counterspell, while moving the gameplay to something way more intereactive and fun than just slamming Shivan Dragons and Ifh-Bíff Efreets at one another.
Hopefully that makes some sense, if I seem off on any of that by all means let me know and esp if other cards stick out as OP. You're making me really think Braingeyser should go and probably Outpost too and that I should give Jayemdae Tome another look, so I am grateful for the thoughts and will absolutely consider the stuff you suggested where it aligns with the cube philosophy!
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"Fun" is clearly a subjective definition here. Pearled Unicorn and Hill Giant just aren't fun cards to us (and most players that love Magic that resemble competitive old formats) and there are so many unique, interesting, powerful (and most importantly, ICONIC) cards that are unfortunately sidelined.
Cheers, and happy cubing.
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* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
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I could imagine someday changing my mind on the tradeoff and preferring to have some "ruined" games in order to put those badass cards back in, but at the moment I think they're too toxic to the gameplay and a terrible way to lose games ><
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If you like having swingy hard-to-stop cards then you probably never blinked when your opponent creamed you with Glorybringer at prerelease. If you like to think its your decisions in deckbuilding and gameplay that will determine your result, then few things could be worse than watching somebody turn that card sideways on turn 5. It's a card that virtually no amount of synergy or tight play will beat - you either have the answer in hand at the moment it resolves or you more-than-likely just lose the game regardless of whatever else you had been doing.
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You have lots of cards in this cube that have no business being in the list if Sengir Vampire "ruins" games.
There's a balance between understandably wanting to ban Ancestral Recall and playing Pearled Unicorn. That's the kind of magic I'd strive to create for a format centered around nostalgia. That's the universe of Shivans and Serras and Juggernauts. There's no reason why they should create a feel bad format any more than half the cards in this list could. You say you want it to boil down to skill and not card quality?? ...Tell that to the guy curving from Scathe Zonbies into Hill Giant while staring down a Serendib Efreet the turn after he just got hit by Hymn to Tourach.
I understand the design approach you're trying to take, but I think the execution looks haphazard. Half the banned cards should definitely be allowed to go in, or a bunch of cards in the cube need to come out. By the time completely unplayable cards are going in because the powerlevel has come down so much ...the format hasn't really become any more enjoyable. If anything, it's become significantly less so.
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So if I may set aside the specifics for a moment and look at the principles and see if I'm wrong/off somewhere:
I think we would agree that cards like pack rat and glorybringer do not make for great games of limited Magic. I would say the problem with these cards is that they present a very small window for an answer, and in terms of answers blocking rarely works, racing is unlikely to work unless you're already very far ahead, and removal must be in your hand or on top of your deck to generally resolve before you're so far behind that you probably lose regardless. Ideally a cube presents few or no cards that routinely lead to this situation (you must have removal in hand or on top of your deck or you lose when the card resolves).
The experience I had with dragon/vampire/angel/djinn and such was that they were exactly that situation. They come down turn 5-6 and if you don't have one of a relatively small # of removal spells in hand or the corresponding bomb the game goes south real fast.
I do wonder if you say "encyclopedia" or "classic" or your "3 cubes" what sets you're including. I've drawn the line at alliances here. During the more powerful version I did extend to Weatherlight to gain more removal/power but with dialing back the power I was able to cut that block again. But within Alpha to Alliances these are the only removal spells I see that I'm not currently using that would kill a 4/4 flyer:
Cut for being Too strong
Has been removed to make room for different cards
So unless I'm missing cards here, I could increase the removal count by ~14 at most and of that 11 of the cards have proven problematic for other reasons. In particular the X damage spells are gross as both surgical sweepers and game-ending burn, and the control magic effects are gross because there are only like 4 cards in the whole era of sets that will kill enchantments.
I think the net effect you'd get would be bringing in a dozen huge powerful 4-7 CMC threats and a dozen huge powerful sweepers/burn/removal to answer them. While theoretically one answers the other I'd expect the more likely outcome to just be these 24 cards scattered around and just randomly stealing games. Does that feel like Glorybringer? Or is that just acceptable variance where most likely everyone will have 1-2 haymakers they hope to draw (i.e how pretty much every normal draft/sealed goes).
I'm thinking my best bet is to just decide what 24-30 cards I would reintroduce to "power up" again and what I'd cut for them, and see again what it feels like putting those back into games.
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Don't forget Chain Lightning, Earthquake, Oubliette, Paralyze and Contagion. There are probably several others too, but those jumped out to me as omissions. Royal Assassin helps too. And Sorceress Queen. And Maze of Ith. Island of Wak-Wak can help too, if you're looking for bullets against flying threats. Ice Floe is playable. Icy Manipulator controls big threats. Serrated Arrows can keep them in tradable range with mid-sized flying creatures of yur own. Earthbind can keep them blockable, and can also kill Hypnotic Specter/Thunder Spirit and the like. Preacher can prey on decks going "control" with a few large threats. King Suleiman kills a ton of powerful permanents.
There are definitely ways to make the iconic monsters playable, and increase the overall powerlevel of the cube without it creeping into "powered" territory.
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There are adequate threats and answers in Classic Magic to be able to run good creatures without it ruining drafts. In my opinion, the only thing that ruins drafts is replacing fun, interesting and iconic creatures with Pearled Unicorns and Scathe Zombies. THAT, is what will "ruin" games in a format that should be a nostalgic blast to play.
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Zelyon Sword > Icy Manipulator
Copper Tablet > Serrated Arrows
Mishra's War Machine > Juggernaut
Roterothopter > Obsianus Golem
Serra Bestiary > Balance
Warning > Armageddon
Hazduhr the Abbot > Serra Angel
Kjeldoran Phalanx > Personal Incarnation
Fire Drake > Shivan Dragon
Meteor Shower > Fireball
Aggression > Earthquake
Craw Giant > Force of Nature
Radjan Spirit > Lhurgoyf
Venomous Breath > Hurricane
Brine Hag > Prodigal Sorcerer
Silver Erne > Azure Drake
Wind Spirit > Air Elemental
Homarid Warrior > Mahamoti Djinn
Ray of Command > Control Magic
Errant Minion > Braingeyser
Minion of Leshrac > Lord of the Pit
Foul Familiar > Sengir Vampire
Funeral March > Ashes to Ashes
Impact so far looks a bit less bad than I worried about. It is nice to see those big iconic cards come around again in mock draft, but it also detracts from trying to do anything synergistic like goblins or auras or land destruction. Will give it more cycles on cubetutor and think about it but may end up keeping some of these changes but not all. I'm okay with a few big splashy flyers - I'm not so sure that balance/geddon are a good idea.
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The type of gameplay you are trying to encourage IMHO is really fun. My 2 cents on your list... I'd cut this sucker down to 360. Get rid of your 90 worst cards. I'd try very hard to reduce the variance between your best and worst cards (Craw Wurm does not look good next to Shivan Dragon). Doing that will increase the quality of your draft and it will make drafted decks more competitive. This is the basic philosophy that most midrange lower powered rare lists tend to follow and it makes for a very competitive and fun format.
Limiting your card pool to early Magic disadvantages you somewhat (clunky mechanics and limited card pool), but I see the appeal. And power level is all relative. In a list like this, Serra Angel is sweet. It's unplayable jank in my lists but that's irrelevant to what you are doing here.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Perhaps not. I'd focus on balancing ways to play with the iconic creatures first (adequate removal/answers/other threats) before reintroducing all the most powerful spells.
I like most of those changes quite a bit. You might want to keep Ray of Command, it can be a good answer to a big resolved threat by the opponent, and you may want to add in Oubliette. It'll be nice to have at least 1 more good 1-for-1 removal spell that can handle the big critters.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Minion of Leshrac > Lord of the Pit
Foul Familiar > Sengir Vampire
Phantom Monster > Mahamoti Djinn
Craw Giant > Force of Nature
Orc General > Shivan Dragon
Kjeldoran Phalanx > Serra Angel
Copper Tablet > Juggernaut
And a handful of spell swaps that improve answers to bombs.
Stampede > Hurricane
Meteor Shower > Fireball
Funeral March > Broken Visage
Dry Spell > Torture
Zelyon Sword > Serrated Arrows
Aesthir Glider > Icy Manipulator
In the end 7 bombs and 6 good answer shouldn't warp the cube too much from where it was. The original bigger change I tried just overloaded it too much from where it was balance-wise and every deck I test-drafted was goodstuff.dec with the minimal chaff required to dig for bombs. With just 7 bombs in a 450 cube you may not see any, you may hate pick them, and you may just not draw them. They can even throw off your draft by getting you to jump colours and build a weaker deck.
Will run with this change for a while and hope that gives the best-of-both-worlds experience: iconic cards + great gameplay
Edit: Tried these changes for a week or so. They were everything I worried they would be. Having decks and games warped around giant flyers is lousy gameplay and invalidates every other possible strategy in the cube. The gap between the average card and a shivan/serra/sengir/mahamotti is just too huge. The games are way better when the only massive flyers out there are 8 mana 3-colour elder dragons, and fewer dumb free wins off bombs makes it worth the effort to try and do things like night soil + jokulhaups or jalum tome + all hallow's eve.
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