My current list can be found on cubetutor here. This thing is gigantic and I don't want to have to update it here as well.
Standard Commander ban list
42 Commanders/104 each color/212 multicolor/123 artifacts/40 land
Cards generally aren't cut for power concerns or unfunability. Only exception so far is Time Stretch.
Deck size is 66 cards + 1 commander
4-5 man is 7 packs of 11; 6+ is 5 packs of 15
The commanders are shuffled then a 3 card pack is drafted before the regular draft starts
This is the cube my playgroup uses for commander drafts. It can currently handle up to 11 players but my goal is to cap it at 12. If we draft with 8+ players we'll split into 2 pods.
The only card that's banned is Time Stretch. There's mass LD but it isn't rampant just something you have to plan for during draft. Combos are hard to assemble in a cube this size and I've chosen to exclude cards that can't stand on their own merits so traditional combo enablers like Palinchron are not here making things more difficult. You will still see them sometimes.
I try to make an effort to include as many cards that are iconic in the format as well as cards that are popular in our group but don't see a lot of play (Callous Oppressor is a good example).
I'm always open to any feedback and thanks for taking the time to visit my cube thread and read this!
This is insanely big lol. How many players do you have each draft?
We usually draft with about 8 people using 66 card decks (splitting into pods of 4 each) but I'm sure we've had as many as 10 before. Plus with such a big cube I can play all the cards I want to.:)
If you wouldn't mind putting the colors under separate spoiler sections, I think that would greatly improve the readability of your project.
-D
I was trying to think of the best way to section everything out and wanted to avoid excessive spoilers but I guess that will work for now.
EDIT: Fixed. My current issue is that due to the size red is hurting pretty badly and runs way too many expensive cards. Would like good options at a lower cost to replace filler.
We usually draft with about 8 people using 66 card decks (splitting into pods of 4 each) but I'm sure we've had as many as 10 before. Plus with such a big cube I can play all the cards I want to.:)
Im just now building my Commander Cube, Im settling on around 600 right now. I will keep an eye on this and once it gets tuned I might give it a shot.
My current issue is that due to the size red is hurting pretty badly and runs way too many expensive cards. Would like good options at a lower cost to replace filler.
I've been working on this issue in my cube as well. My solution has been to cut some of the stratospherically-costed dragons, like scourge of kher ridges in favor of more 2-4 drops. This isn't to everyones' taste, but I am a big fan of double strikers, of which there are some interesting specimens in markov blademaster and hound of griselbrand. Rakdos Pit Dragon could be another option if your B/R/x decks can achieve hellbent.
The new set will bring us Fellhide Spiritbinder, and if you're not too leery of auras, I could see getting some mileage out of fearsome temper. EDIT: Nevermind on FT; I thought the ability was "R: target can' block", not "2R: target can't block"
Comparing your list and mine, I recently cut anarchist due to poor perfomance, I've never been a big fan of mindclaw shaman, and am personally reevaluating how many times charmbreaker devils has ever lived up to its potential. Finally, ingot chewer classified as a 5-drop may be a bit of a misnomer, given its more frequent use as a very reasonably costed artifact killer. I cut greater gargadon for lack of use (doesn't have any evasive abilities either).
EDIT: I'll have a few more to share later, when I'm back home. I engaged in a blizzard of trading last weekend, and am probably forgetting a few lower cost red cards I picked up.
Oh yeah, Krenko, Mob Boss for tokens/goblins/durdle/purphoros support...
The double strikers are a good suggestion and they help support Ruric Thar and Rakdos which are 2 of the more popular red commanders. I'm only running 6 7cc+ creatures (one of which is Greater Gargadon) at 869 cards which feels about right. I could probably cut Bosh but he's a potential commander and he helps the artifact theme in red. Was more looking to cut some of the high end spells but they're some of reds best cards. Maybe Devil's Play could go but that would leave me with 1 X spell. Everything is classified by actual mana cost for ease of use so Ingot Chewer will remain at 5 despite being usually cast for 1.
Anarchist - Definitely cuttable but there are things I'd rather swap out. He'll probably be gone in a year or 2.
Mindclaw Shaman - My friend was happy this card was added and it's been played. I personally avoid red like the plague so I'm fine running it as long as my drafters play it.
Charmbreaker Devils - This is mainly a source of card advantage for red. Red really struggles in this area so I'm fine running cards that help out even if they aren't the most powerful. These guys seem really good in Wort or Riku.
Greater Gargadon - I think this is one of red's best cards but that's also because of how I have my cube set up. He's insane with the mass destruction spells (Jokulhaups/Obliterate/Cataclysm/Deathcloud) and provides a repeatable sac outlet that your opponents can't interact with in addition to being a 9/7 haste creature. It's also awesome in Jhoira. This card is very rarely left in the sideboard.
Krenko, Mob Boss - This is an awesome suggestion and will definitely be added. It's even a potential commander!
I do 8 player drafts with 5 packs x 15 cards and have only 600 cards to get 65+1 card decks.
I would seriously consider cutting the numbers down in a big way. I know that more options and better decks sounds like a good thing, but when you have that many cards going around it takes a long time to draft and build. The one reason people have cited not coming back to my EDH Drafts is "It took forever!!" and that was enough to knock out almost 20% of my playgroup. Limitation is one of the key components of a limited format, and once I embraced the idea that the Cube wouldn't do all things all the time, people enjoyed it more.
If you have 10 people show up just cut the deck size so people are drafting 4 packs instead of 5 and aim for 50 card decks.
Seriously, I see that 889 card number there and can visualize sitting around without anyone to play with.
I do 8 player drafts with 5 packs x 15 cards and have only 600 cards to get 65+1 card decks.
I would seriously consider cutting the numbers down in a big way. I know that more options and better decks sounds like a good thing, but when you have that many cards going around it takes a long time to draft and build. The one reason people have cited not coming back to my EDH Drafts is "It took forever!!" and that was enough to knock out almost 20% of my playgroup. Limitation is one of the key components of a limited format, and once I embraced the idea that the Cube wouldn't do all things all the time, people enjoyed it more.
If you have 10 people show up just cut the deck size so people are drafting 4 packs instead of 5 and aim for 50 card decks.
Seriously, I see that 889 card number there and can visualize sitting around without anyone to play with.
5 packs of 15 is how we draft too but I really wouldn't want to draft the whole cube at once. I don't like drafting 360 card standard cubes with 8 people either, it's just boring to me seeing the same cards over and over. 750 would be my bare minimum but I'm happy with the current size.
The length of time it takes to draft has been a factor though. If shuffling is required it probably takes about 1 1/2 hours to shuffle, make packs and draft. Shuffling this thing thoroughly sucks tremendously :/.
I'm not worried about losing drafters though. My playgroup is in TN (a different state from mine) so we usually only get together every other month when me and 1-2 friends from Georgia will drive up to my friend's house in TN for the weekend. It's a big deal for a lot of the locals so we actually have to manage things to make sure too many people don't show up.
@Wildfire: I try to keep it as large as possible. It does suck to shuffle...
12 people to draft if ever I had that situation
2/3rds of the cube to be drafted at a time to increase variance (effectively the same way as a 540 normal cube)
6 player "sealed"
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The only problem I see with it is that I like games of 4 the best, and with 6 you're either stuck with one awkwardly large game, or two slightly-too-small games.
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My ideal size is 5 so 6 isn't out of my comfort zone too much. I do agree that 3 man games are awkward and I don't like them much. The terrible number is 7, at least with 8 I can do 2 4 man pods :/
My ideal size is 5 so 6 isn't out of my comfort zone too much. I do agree that 3 man games are awkward and I don't like them much. The terrible number is 7, at least with 8 I can do 2 4 man pods :/
At seven I do a 4 and a 3. At least I get one table of four out of it.
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5 packs of 15 is how we draft too but I really wouldn't want to draft the whole cube at once. I don't like drafting 360 card standard cubes with 8 people either, it's just boring to me seeing the same cards over and over. 750 would be my bare minimum but I'm happy with the current size.
The length of time it takes to draft has been a factor though. If shuffling is required it probably takes about 1 1/2 hours to shuffle, make packs and draft. Shuffling this thing thoroughly sucks tremendously :/.
I'm not worried about losing drafters though. My playgroup is in TN (a different state from mine) so we usually only get together every other month when me and 1-2 friends from Georgia will drive up to my friend's house in TN for the weekend. It's a big deal for a lot of the locals so we actually have to manage things to make sure too many people don't show up.
@Wildfire: I try to keep it as large as possible. It does suck to shuffle...
Fair enough. There are times when having a huge pool means you see some cards less frequently than you'd want though. When we had left overs there were 4-5 generals, Sol Ring, etc in the scap and everyone seemed to think that including those would have been better. I have the 600 card Cube and 100 cards that I keep off to the side if I have more people, but the tighter the cube the better when you aren't drafting it 2-3 times a week... to me.
Fair enough. There are times when having a huge pool means you see some cards less frequently than you'd want though. When we had left overs there were 4-5 generals, Sol Ring, etc in the scap and everyone seemed to think that including those would have been better. I have the 600 card Cube and 100 cards that I keep off to the side if I have more people, but the tighter the cube the better when you aren't drafting it 2-3 times a week... to me.
I've been cubing 1v1 cube for over 5 years now so I have a pretty good idea how much variety my playgroup likes and they're more likely to complain about a card showing up too much than one not showing up for several drafts. Also despite us not getting together very often are total volume of drafts is still decent since we're do nothing but sleeping and playing Magic for 3 days straight. Probably did around 8 commander drafts last time we got together and that's because we had to mix in games of constructed Commander. So it might not be a good size for other groups but it works for us.
I added some resources and cube lists, mostly for my own use but might be convenient for you guys as well. If you don't want to have your cube linked please let me know and I'll remove it.
Next step is working on my on deck section which is quite sizeable. Between that section and my ginormous cube it should cover most of the viable cards for Commander cubes.
Whole set is spoiled so it's time to start looking at potential changes. I usually only adjust my list once every 3 months so I'm also going to look at some cutting some underperformers for on deck cards to see if they do better. So new stuff!
Brimaz, King of Oreskos - Could be good for additional token support but he's a very slow producer. Does have a cheap mana cost.
Spirit of the Labrynth - This could be a good hate bear to deal with blue and sometimes black and green decks. He shuts off several engines as well.
Champion of Stray Souls - Black unfortunately has no shortage of insane 6 drops but I think this guy can still make the cut over one of the ones I currently run. Thinking of swapping out Havester of Souls. Since the 6cc creature section is already so clogged in black I don't want to expand it.
Fellhide Spiritbinder - A good red card! Aladdin has done nothing so he goes. I'm also considering cutting Devil's Play for Academy Raider which would reduce me to 1 X spell in red but gives Rakdos a good tool (the actual Rakdos not the guild :P).
Ephara, God of the Polis - This is the blink commander I've been waiting for. I'm going to move Lavinia back to the multicolor section, probably swapping out Mirrorweave.
Mogis, God of Slaughter - A potential commander but maybe Rakdos has been popular and Olivia is very good. Cauldron Dance, Kaervek and Lyzolda are all potential candidates for removal. Definitely looking for feedback on this.
Xenagos, God of Revels - Another potential commander but I like having Ruric Thar as the creature deck and Wort as the more spell focused deck. I could cut Deus of Calamity and put him in gold or move Ruric Thar to gold and run Xenagos as commander.
Mogis seems really questionable. He's got a decent indestructible body if you can manage to turn him on. But his devotion requirement is fairly high, requiring you to commit a lot of stuff to the board. And his passive ability might as well be a blank with the huge life buffers people have to play with.
Brimaz doesn't really seem worth it. Look to Hero of Bladehold if you want this kind of effect.
I feel like Sigarda is more useful than Karametra.
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This is the cube my playgroup uses for commander drafts. It can currently handle up to 11 players but my goal is to cap it at 12. If we draft with 8+ players we'll split into 2 pods.
The only card that's banned is Time Stretch. There's mass LD but it isn't rampant just something you have to plan for during draft. Combos are hard to assemble in a cube this size and I've chosen to exclude cards that can't stand on their own merits so traditional combo enablers like Palinchron are not here making things more difficult. You will still see them sometimes.
I try to make an effort to include as many cards that are iconic in the format as well as cards that are popular in our group but don't see a lot of play (Callous Oppressor is a good example).
I'm always open to any feedback and thanks for taking the time to visit my cube thread and read this!
Additional Resources
The Multiplayer / EDH Cube Thread byCadaverousBl00m
EDH Cube Generals and General Drafting thread by Dolono
The Top 50 List maintained by ISBPathfinder
Other Commander Cubes (if you don't want your cube linked or want it added just send me a PM and I'll be happy to oblige :))
aanidar's cube
RemiZero's cube
Wildfire393's cube
LostCondottiere and Theogony IX's cube
Galspanic's cube
Dolono's cube
1 Moat
1 Imperial Seal
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Timetwister
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
We usually draft with about 8 people using 66 card decks (splitting into pods of 4 each) but I'm sure we've had as many as 10 before. Plus with such a big cube I can play all the cards I want to.:)
-D
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
I was trying to think of the best way to section everything out and wanted to avoid excessive spoilers but I guess that will work for now.
EDIT: Fixed. My current issue is that due to the size red is hurting pretty badly and runs way too many expensive cards. Would like good options at a lower cost to replace filler.
Im just now building my Commander Cube, Im settling on around 600 right now. I will keep an eye on this and once it gets tuned I might give it a shot.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
I've been working on this issue in my cube as well. My solution has been to cut some of the stratospherically-costed dragons, like scourge of kher ridges in favor of more 2-4 drops. This isn't to everyones' taste, but I am a big fan of double strikers, of which there are some interesting specimens in markov blademaster and hound of griselbrand. Rakdos Pit Dragon could be another option if your B/R/x decks can achieve hellbent.
The new set will bring us Fellhide Spiritbinder, and if you're not too leery of auras, I could see getting some mileage out of fearsome temper. EDIT: Nevermind on FT; I thought the ability was "R: target can' block", not "2R: target can't block"
Comparing your list and mine, I recently cut anarchist due to poor perfomance, I've never been a big fan of mindclaw shaman, and am personally reevaluating how many times charmbreaker devils has ever lived up to its potential. Finally, ingot chewer classified as a 5-drop may be a bit of a misnomer, given its more frequent use as a very reasonably costed artifact killer. I cut greater gargadon for lack of use (doesn't have any evasive abilities either).
EDIT: I'll have a few more to share later, when I'm back home. I engaged in a blizzard of trading last weekend, and am probably forgetting a few lower cost red cards I picked up.
Oh yeah, Krenko, Mob Boss for tokens/goblins/durdle/purphoros support...
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Anarchist - Definitely cuttable but there are things I'd rather swap out. He'll probably be gone in a year or 2.
Mindclaw Shaman - My friend was happy this card was added and it's been played. I personally avoid red like the plague so I'm fine running it as long as my drafters play it.
Charmbreaker Devils - This is mainly a source of card advantage for red. Red really struggles in this area so I'm fine running cards that help out even if they aren't the most powerful. These guys seem really good in Wort or Riku.
Greater Gargadon - I think this is one of red's best cards but that's also because of how I have my cube set up. He's insane with the mass destruction spells (Jokulhaups/Obliterate/Cataclysm/Deathcloud) and provides a repeatable sac outlet that your opponents can't interact with in addition to being a 9/7 haste creature. It's also awesome in Jhoira. This card is very rarely left in the sideboard.
Krenko, Mob Boss - This is an awesome suggestion and will definitely be added. It's even a potential commander!
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Oops that should be 42...almost up to 900 cards now!
I've been toying with the idea of taking mine up to 960, but I'd like to see some better Wedge options first.
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I would seriously consider cutting the numbers down in a big way. I know that more options and better decks sounds like a good thing, but when you have that many cards going around it takes a long time to draft and build. The one reason people have cited not coming back to my EDH Drafts is "It took forever!!" and that was enough to knock out almost 20% of my playgroup. Limitation is one of the key components of a limited format, and once I embraced the idea that the Cube wouldn't do all things all the time, people enjoyed it more.
If you have 10 people show up just cut the deck size so people are drafting 4 packs instead of 5 and aim for 50 card decks.
Seriously, I see that 889 card number there and can visualize sitting around without anyone to play with.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
5 packs of 15 is how we draft too but I really wouldn't want to draft the whole cube at once. I don't like drafting 360 card standard cubes with 8 people either, it's just boring to me seeing the same cards over and over. 750 would be my bare minimum but I'm happy with the current size.
The length of time it takes to draft has been a factor though. If shuffling is required it probably takes about 1 1/2 hours to shuffle, make packs and draft. Shuffling this thing thoroughly sucks tremendously :/.
I'm not worried about losing drafters though. My playgroup is in TN (a different state from mine) so we usually only get together every other month when me and 1-2 friends from Georgia will drive up to my friend's house in TN for the weekend. It's a big deal for a lot of the locals so we actually have to manage things to make sure too many people don't show up.
@Wildfire: I try to keep it as large as possible. It does suck to shuffle...
12 people to draft if ever I had that situation
2/3rds of the cube to be drafted at a time to increase variance (effectively the same way as a 540 normal cube)
6 player "sealed"
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
The only problem I see with it is that I like games of 4 the best, and with 6 you're either stuck with one awkwardly large game, or two slightly-too-small games.
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At seven I do a 4 and a 3. At least I get one table of four out of it.
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I don't think I've had to draft Commander cube with 7 yet. I can usually convince people it's time for some 1v1 cubing.;)
Fair enough. There are times when having a huge pool means you see some cards less frequently than you'd want though. When we had left overs there were 4-5 generals, Sol Ring, etc in the scap and everyone seemed to think that including those would have been better. I have the 600 card Cube and 100 cards that I keep off to the side if I have more people, but the tighter the cube the better when you aren't drafting it 2-3 times a week... to me.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I've had a couple of 7's, including when I drafted with Galspanic's playgroup.
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I've been cubing 1v1 cube for over 5 years now so I have a pretty good idea how much variety my playgroup likes and they're more likely to complain about a card showing up too much than one not showing up for several drafts. Also despite us not getting together very often are total volume of drafts is still decent since we're do nothing but sleeping and playing Magic for 3 days straight. Probably did around 8 commander drafts last time we got together and that's because we had to mix in games of constructed Commander. So it might not be a good size for other groups but it works for us.
I added some resources and cube lists, mostly for my own use but might be convenient for you guys as well. If you don't want to have your cube linked please let me know and I'll remove it.
Next step is working on my on deck section which is quite sizeable. Between that section and my ginormous cube it should cover most of the viable cards for Commander cubes.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos - Could be good for additional token support but he's a very slow producer. Does have a cheap mana cost.
Spirit of the Labrynth - This could be a good hate bear to deal with blue and sometimes black and green decks. He shuts off several engines as well.
My weaker performers in white have been Kataki, War's Wage, Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendent and Magus of the Disk so probably cutting from there. Marshel's Anthem is very expendable as well.
Champion of Stray Souls - Black unfortunately has no shortage of insane 6 drops but I think this guy can still make the cut over one of the ones I currently run. Thinking of swapping out Havester of Souls. Since the 6cc creature section is already so clogged in black I don't want to expand it.
Also in black Avatar of Woe, Flesh-Eater Imp and Syphon Mind are low hanging fruit. Black has some really solid on deck cards like Bone Shredder, Innocent Blood & Phyrexian Delver. I also want to try out Death Match after hearing how it does in Galspanic's group.
Fellhide Spiritbinder - A good red card! Aladdin has done nothing so he goes. I'm also considering cutting Devil's Play for Academy Raider which would reduce me to 1 X spell in red but gives Rakdos a good tool (the actual Rakdos not the guild :P).
Courser of Kruphix - This guy looks sweet! Oracle of Mul Daya is a great card and I expect this guy to play out similarly.
I'm also wanting to find room for Berserk and Hua-Tuo, Honored Physician. Looking at Fierce Empath, Forgotten Ancient, Kessig Cagebreakers and Harmonize as potential cuts.
Ephara, God of the Polis - This is the blink commander I've been waiting for. I'm going to move Lavinia back to the multicolor section, probably swapping out Mirrorweave.
Karametra, God of the Harvest - This could potentially replace Sigarda, Host of Herons but not sure about that swap. Neither card would make it in the gold section.
Mogis, God of Slaughter - A potential commander but maybe Rakdos has been popular and Olivia is very good. Cauldron Dance, Kaervek and Lyzolda are all potential candidates for removal. Definitely looking for feedback on this.
Xenagos, God of Revels - Another potential commander but I like having Ruric Thar as the creature deck and Wort as the more spell focused deck. I could cut Deus of Calamity and put him in gold or move Ruric Thar to gold and run Xenagos as commander.
Astral Cornucopia - Nice mana rock, will throw it in.
Temple of Malice - I don't know why I'm using Shadowblood Ridge but that ends now.
Anyone have experience with Boseiju in commander cube? Pretty sure it's too narrow.
Brimaz doesn't really seem worth it. Look to Hero of Bladehold if you want this kind of effect.
I feel like Sigarda is more useful than Karametra.
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