Welcome to my cube thread. Thanks for checking in, and please feel free to leave some comments.
A quick synopsis of the cube:
- 540 cards. Aiming to be able to draft with 12 players if needed, while also allowing for 8 players to not see every card.
- No "un" cards and no functional reprints and no power 9 cards.
- I am following the legacy ban list, with a few exceptions. The main exception being Mystical Tutor, due to it being banned with combo, which isn't an issue here. That is the same reason Yawg's Will might make it in eventually.
- I've done my best to explain choices/omissions as I remembered. If I screwed a few things up, its due to the timing of this going up.
- Please feel free to comment about choices you like/dislike, and stuff that has worked/hasn't worked for you in the past!
- The cube splits as follows:
67 in each color + artifacts
68 multicolored
70 lands
The cube - 540 cards
[spoiler]:symw::symw: White - 67 cards :symw::symw:
[SPOILER]
Creatures - 36[SPOILER]
[/SPOILER]
White notes:
[spoiler]- As with the rest of the cube, I won't be including functional reprints (Ravages of War, Savannah Lions)
- I wanted to avoid using creatures with the Shadow ability. Too often its practically just unblockable, which I understand is the point of evasion, however I'd rather have some ability to interact with them. The Skyfisher/Mistral Charger are an attempt to make up for lack of small, evasive dudes.
- The aim is for white to be a little more aggro than control, with enough good drops for WW to be a realistic deck, as well as good splashable drops for G/W aggro or Naya zoo. (thus the Crusade and Honor of the Pure)[/SPOILER][/spoiler]
[/SPOILER]
Blue notes:
[spoiler]- I've decided not to include the "untap" cards from Urza. Its a personal choice based on the cards, both dislike from my playgroup as well as my own.
- Non-powered so obviously missing some goods here.
- Blue is obviously going to be the heaviest control color, with some solid finishers[/spoiler][/spoiler]
[/SPOILER]
Black notes:
[spoiler]- The aim with black is to make it the opposite of white, i.e. able to do aggro, but a little more controlling.
- The big one missing here is Yawgmoth's Will. The main reason for leaving it out isn't powerlevel, but lack of understanding in my playgroup (not everyone gets the full advantage of it, plus it lessens without having stuff like Lotuses in the GY)
- Juzaam Djinn being out due to Plague Sliver almost always being the same thing. Close enough to a functional reprint, plus I'd like to eventually have no proxies!
- Currently there is almost no reanimation. I'm not sure how useful reanimation is without big targets.[/spoiler][/spoiler]
Artifacts notes:
[spoiler]- A lot of the "power" artifacts are missing, like Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith and the like. This is again due to the skill level of my play group. They just underrate these cards so its too easy to get them when you shouldn't. Tanglewire, Smokestack and Winter Orb fall into this category too. I know it sucks, but unfortunately, the cube needs to be curved towards them a bit.
- Not sure on the equipment count. Wanted to help Stoneforge be even better.
- Ankh of Mishra is another that would just be criminally underrated, so it stays out for now.
- Still two cards short here...looking for stuff to put in (hoping the rest of SoM block brings goodies)[/spoiler][/spoiler]
Multicolor notes:[Spoiler]- Still have one open slot here too...preferably for a tri-colored card.
- I consider cards multicolor if you would play it specifically in those colors (i.e. Loam Lion is G/W, Kird Ape is R/G, Jilt is U/R)[/spoiler][/SPOILER]
Land notes:[Spoiler]- I chose not to go with duals for now, both based on the monetary aspect and the fact that I wanted to try a different style of fixing. I understand this isn't conventional, but I'm going to see how it goes.
- I'm going with cycles for everything for now, however cycles may be broken in the future (the main one I'm thinking of now is Horizon Canopy in for either Wooded Bastion or Stirring Wildwood)
- I went with 2 utility lands per color as well. Gaea's Cradle and Volrath's Stronghold are money things again.
- I'm not sure of Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge are enough for land disruption. Dust Bowl is an option, and hopefully eventually Wasteland. Strip Mine is out and Rishadan Port is also out (one due to money, other due to legacy ban)
- I know Thawing Glaciers is a popular utility land, however that is once again a "players won't recognize how powerful it is" issue.[/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]
Changelog:
12/1/10[spoiler]Out-> In
Samurai of the Pale Curtain -> Soltari Champion
Mesmeric Fiend -> Oona's Prowler
Abyssal Persecutor -> Sarcomancy
Liliana's Specter -> Carnophage
Hand of Cruelty -> Vampire Lacerator
Tattermunge Maniac -> Kird Ape
Glare of Subdual -> Loam Lion
Naya Charm -> Wild Nacatl
Sedraxis Specter -> Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Invoke the Firemind -> Gelectrode
Ghost Quarter -> Dust Bowl
Stripmine (missing a multicolor, this'll work for now as land 71)[/spoiler]
12/31/10[spoiler]Out-> In
Oath of Druids -> Rampant Growth
Phyrexian Processor -> Steel Hellkite
Morphling -> Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Phyrexian Plaguelord -> Geth
Memnarch -> Thieving Magpie
Mirari's Wake -> Glare of Subdual
Rumbling Slum -> Boggart Ram-Gang
Ashenmoor Gouger -> Rakdos Guildmage
Plumeveil -> Venser, the Sojourner[/spoiler]
2/09/11[spoiler]Out-> In
Blade of the 6th Pride -> Accorder Paladin
Kami of Ancient Law -> Ronom Unicorn
Knight of Meadowgrain -> Leonin Relic-Warder
Pianna, Nomad Captain -> Mirran Crusader
Rout -> Sunblast Angel
Kor Sanctifiers -> Hero of Bladehold
Barter in Blood -> Inquisition of Kozilek
Innocent Blood -> Fume Spitter
Nameless Inversion -> Go for the Throat
Eyeblight's Ending -> Black Sun Zenith
Skeletal Vampire -> Massacre Wurm
Lava Hounds -> Hero of Oxid Ridge
Hammer of Bogardan -> Slagstorm
Lignify -> Green Sun Zenith
Briarhorn -> Thrun, the last Troll
Uktabi Orangutan -> Viridian Emmissary
Rofellos -> Garruk's Companion
Puppet Strings -> Bonehoard
Platinum Emperion -> Phyrexian Revoker
Sword of Vengeance -> Sword of Feast and Famine
Chimeric Mass -> Sphere of the Suns
Mirari's Wake -> Glare of Subdual
If you like 5 color cards, I would recommend putting in etched oracle. It's the nuts and I think it's better than any wedge shard you could put in.
Invoke the firemind is awful. I hate that card so much, wish it had entwine or cost a little less before the x, gelectrode is better IMO
I would still play kird ape and loam lion without the original duals for sure. Also nacatl, even if you don't get a mountain and plains early, surely you'll get at least one of those, then he's still a 1 mana 2/2
Also, I would cut the multicolor down a little bit, you're starting to get pretty mediocre multi's at that size, like coiling oracle, temporal spring, goblin legionaire, firemane angel, invoke the firemind, jilt, debtor's knell, glare of subdual, fires of yavimaya, rumbling slum, tatturmunge(yeah it should be the ape), ashenmoor gouger, soul manipulation, agony warp, and court hassar.
Those are all sub optimal IMO, and if you cut at least 1 of each multicolor(I would do 2)
Then you can get some more goodies for you mono colors. And pack quality will improve by a long shot.
I'll analyze your mono colored later man.
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You mention questioning whether or not to include Dust Bowl, and let me tell you that you shouldn't. The card is amazing. Being able to trade your basic land for there Academy Ruins or keeping them off there splash dual is so good. It also alters the way they play because they can't just run out there utility land.
Despite wanting to remain Legacy legal, I still think you should add in strip mine (atleast until you get wasteland). Much like how you are ok with Mystical Tutor, Strip Mine isn't an issue due to it not being a 4 of and you are unable to build your deck with it in mind. It is also an important answer to many non-basic lands and helps to keep 5cc honest in there mana base.
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Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
I think your decision to not play functional reprints and not play with shadow hamstrings aggro. Aggro needs evasion and needs redundant 1- and 2-drops. These are the cards that allow cube aggro decks to play almost as smoothly as constructed aggro decks.
I agree with Mr. Dumpkins advice.
I just added Dust Bowl to my cube and it hasn't seen action yet. I expect good things, though.
For a cube of this size I would cut down to 5 multicolored cards of each color combination. Also, have you thought about moving the signets into multicolor and then cutting the unnecessary ones like Rakdos/Gruul? I would also recommend using a "guild" system of organization to better balance the colors.
For a cube of this size I would cut down to 5 multicolored cards of each color combination. Also, have you thought about moving the signets into multicolor and then cutting the unnecessary ones like Rakdos/Gruul? I would also recommend using a "guild" system of organization to better balance the colors.
I think in common cubes every signet is powerful
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the list looks quite good but there are some card choices i'd like to address:
samurai of the pale curtain: for double white i want more than bushido and an extremely situational ability that has no effect on strategies that discard into their graveyard.
memnarch: you pay 7 for a 4/5 who fails the terminate and the shatter test. then next turn you have to spend 4UUU to gain control of a permanent. i would rather just play volition reins and get the effect immediately, although i see you run both that and confiscate so you must like that effect. regardless, memnarch just isn't good enough at this size.
is there a reason you're not running any black one drops? there's 4 solid choices that more than make the cut at 540. i highly, highly recommend oona's prowler.
devoted druid and crop rotation look pretty subpar. tooth and nail has been quite underwhelming here but it looks like your cube is a bit slower than my current list so it could be very strong. i think its value depends highly on speed of environment and size of playgroup.
there's definitely too much multicolor.
i agree that invoke the firemind is just awful. nicol bolas or thraximundar are the better choices in grixis in my opinion. wild nacatl and similar cards do not need duals to be good. doran the siege tower is only really good on turn 3, and the likelihood of that happening is pretty low.
i like dust bowl quite a bit, and welcome to the cube forum!
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
First off, thanks for the welcome from everyone. Its great to wake up in the morning and see all this help after a day!
I'll try to answer in one post here...
@Rantipole
Any solutions that don't involve running those? Are there any two drop fliers I'm missing? I guess its just a personal thing as I see shadow as pretty much unblockable and a silly mechanic inside (for the most part) one block. The fact that many of them are pro-removal colors is the other issue for me.
@hotshot
Never considered it, and probably going to keep it at 6 for now. My cube list started being based off a local buddies, whose is similar sized (540, he goes 75 lands and drops the shard specific multicolors) and he said hes never had an issue with too much multicolor. How do you mean moving to the "guild" system? Isn't it already sorted by that?
@sexyindiancurry
Haven't actually played with this list yet (I'm on an extremely tight budget so I wanted to make sure I wanted specific cards before getting them), however with the cube of my friends, Harm's Way has been great, as has Condemn. Condemn is probably the worst of the three 1 drop removal spells, but still solid. Harm's Way can act like a removal spell and is an amazing trick in creature based fights. Not sure if Shining Shoal is worth keeping in on top though.
@qq
With Samurai, I wasn't sure which white 2 drops to cut (my friend actually had about 16) Like I said, I was doing my best to make both WW and GW effective strategies. Suggestions over it?
Memnarch I wasn't sure on either. He had the tinker package in, plus Master Transmuter. It is one of the cards I'll be watching, and if it doesn't see play, will probably just be replaced with Sphinx of Jwar Isle.
I like the thoughts on red, just again not sure what to cut overall. Ghostfire I can easily see (especially since the colorless aspect is nearly worthless with the removal of pro-red Shadow creatures). Hammer stays in for now as its able to give red decks the reach they need sometimes, but will be watched.
Tooth and Nail was another high question, but I feel like there are enough big finishers that it might be playable. Another one on the "watchlist" if you will.
@all
With that being said, these are the changes that are happening immediately!
Out-> In
Hand of Cruelty -> Vampire Lacerator
Tattermunge Maniac -> Kird Ape
Glare of Subdual -> Loam Lion
Naya Charm -> Wild Nacatl
Sedraxis Specter -> Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Invoke the Firemind -> Gelectrode
Ghost Quarter -> Dust Bowl
Stripmine (missing a multicolor, this'll work for now as land 71)
Any solutions that don't involve running those? Are there any two drop fliers I'm missing? I guess its just a personal thing as I see shadow as pretty much unblockable and a silly mechanic inside (for the most part) one block. The fact that many of them are pro-removal colors is the other issue for me.
Shadow is pretty much unblockable. What's wrong with that? Unblockable really helps aggro win. There are only two that are pro-removal colors (Soltari Priest and Soltari Monk) and you will find that most Cubists consider them among white's most powerful 2-drops. If you want WW, WR aggro, and WB aggro to be viable, the shadow guys are pretty important. If you don't care about those archetypes, then you can skip them. If you search the lists here, you'll see most cubes run Soltari Priest, Soltari Monk, Soltari Champion, Dauthi Horror, and often Dauthi Marauder and Dauthi Slayer. And, at least in my cube, these creatures die all the time. Occasionally, you die to Soltari Priest with a Terminate in your hand, but in other games you just Doom Blade him and go on to win.
I see lots of people complain about shadow. I don't get it. It's a mechanic like any other. Yeah, it makes creatures semi-unblockable. Why is that such an issue? There are still tons of ways to get rid of them and you can always try to race.
If you really don't want to run the shadow guys, you can add Stormfront Pegasus. You've got the other cheap evasive white beaters.
Never considered it, and probably going to keep it at 6 for now. My cube list started being based off a local buddies, whose is similar sized (540, he goes 75 lands and drops the shard specific multicolors) and he said hes never had an issue with too much multicolor. How do you mean moving to the "guild" system? Isn't it already sorted by that?
The "guild" system of organization was brought to my attention by other members of this forum. Essentially what you do is group all multicolored cards, artifacts, and fixers of the same color into a single group. So for example my Azorious guild section looks like this:
Ordinarily the color balance, in terms of numbers, might be thrown off by a cycle that excludes enemy color pairs like U/G or U/R; an example is the manland-duals from Worldwake. However, under the "guild" grouping system my numbers for each guild are balanced at 7. I think it is a cleaner way to organize a cube and improve balance.
I see lots of people complain about shadow. I don't get it. It's a mechanic like any other. Yeah, it makes creatures semi-unblockable. Why is that such an issue? There are still tons of ways to get rid of them and you can always try to race.
i'm with you 100%. shroud is a much less interactive mechanic and i don't see people complaining about that.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Blade of the 6th Pride -> Accorder Paladin (obvious upgrade here)
Kami of Ancient Law -> Ronom Unicorn (Unicorns >...whatever Kami is)
Knight of Meadowgrain -> Leonin Relic-Warder (Not sure which WW 2 drop is the worst, Meadowgrain seemed like the best bet. Open to suggestions here)
Pianna, Nomad Captain -> Mirran Crusader (Crusader is a house, and Pianna is the worst of the 3 drops in here)
Rout -> Sunblast Angel (Felt like I had too many wrath effects, so I wanted to change a wrath effect into a sudo-wrath, as well as add a new finisher. Will be watched to see how it works out)
Kor Sanctifiers -> Hero of Bladehold (A new Crusade effect to replace Pianna, plus an awesome top end of a WW deck. Following it up with Geddon is insane)
Barter in Blood -> Inquisition of Kozilek (been wanting to fit Inquisition in for a while, and Barter in Blood just ended up being not being good enough)
Innocent Blood -> Fume Spitter (Helpful against Aggro, and can beat when needed, just not hard)
Nameless Inversion -> Go for the Throat (obvious improvement, the tribal subtype takes a hit in this update, sorry Goyf!)
Eyeblight's Ending -> Black Sun Zenith (read above)
Skeletal Vampire -> Massacre Wurm (New finisher in black. Black is supposed to be more controlling in my cube, so wanted to see how Massacre Wurm worked out. Probably too slow for the uber aggro decks, but seems fine against the aggro-midrange two and three color decks)
Lava Hounds -> Hero of Oxid Ridge (Again, wanting to try new cards)
Hammer of Bogardan -> Slagstorm (New cards, plus Hammer usually ended up doing the same thing Slagstorm can do [three to the dome])
Lignify -> Green Sun Zenith (Technically weakens Goyf's P/T, but 2 goyfs in a deck is so pretty)
Briarhorn -> Thrun, the last Troll (I liked Briarhorn, but Thrun is that good in non--1/-1 and infect environments)
Uktabi Orangutan -> Viridian Emmissary (Had Uktabi and Viridian Shaman in...Apes > Elves, but new frame >> old)
Rofellos -> Garruk's Companion (Don't have a Rofellos right now, have a foil Companion, plus I always felt Rof was awkward)
Puppet Strings -> Bonehoard (Heard it was a house, figured lets test it!)
Platinum Emperion -> Phyrexian Revoker (New cards, plus no tinker!)
Sword of Vengeance -> Sword of Feast and Famine (Was very disappointed with Vengeance. Seems good on paper but 3 to equip is just so much)
Chimeric Mass -> Sphere of the Suns (Want to try to help out the 4-5 color decks with Sphere and Lens. There are enough finishers around so Mass shouldn't be missed)
Mirari's Wake -> Glare of Subdual (One card I've never understood in most cubes. Wake is obviously insanely powerful, but G/W is almost always an aggro deck in my cube, so I'd rather support that)
Ghost Quarter -> Contested War Zone (Want to try out War Zone to see if its as good as I think it'll be)
Knight of Meadowgrain -> Leonin Relic-Warder (Not sure which WW 2 drop is the worst, Meadowgrain seemed like the best bet. Open to suggestions here) Meadowgrain is the best of the WW men, not the worst. 8.5 Tails, Holy Nimbus, and Serra Avenger are all much, much worse IMO, and I'd happily lose any one of those to keep Meadowgrain in. Hell, I'd lose all 3 if I had to in order to keep Meadowgrain in.
Pianna, Nomad Captain -> Mirran Crusader (Crusader is a house, and Pianna is the worst of the 3 drops in here) Promise of Bunrei, Griffin Guide, and Sacred Mesa are all worse 3 cost white cards. Promise acts enough like a creature for you to consider it as a cut, if that's what you're worried about. I don't keep creature balance that strict, but if you do, that's the cut I'd make.
Rout -> Sunblast Angel (Felt like I had too many wrath effects, so I wanted to change a wrath effect into a sudo-wrath, as well as add a new finisher. Will be watched to see how it works out) Angel has been great here, but I wouldn't cut Rout for it. Planar Cleansing's WWW makes it the cut, I think.
Kor Sanctifiers -> Hero of Bladehold (A new Crusade effect to replace Pianna, plus an awesome top end of a WW deck. Following it up with Geddon is insane) I'd cut another of the 3 drops I listed instead of Sanctifiers. That, or Ranger of Eos. At 540, you need lots of art/enchant answers, and Sanctifiers definitely makes the cut IMO.
Uktabi Orangutan -> Viridian Emmissary (Had Uktabi and Viridian Shaman in...Apes > Elves, but new frame >> old) I disagree with all of this section. I wouldn't even add Emissary, but if you must try it there are a TON of your green cards I'd cut before the sexy monkeys. Like I said, at 540 you need a lot of effects like this. I'd cut Scute Mob, Leatherback Baloth, Tooth and Nail, Bestial Menace, Crop Rotation, Elephant Guide, or Moldervine Cloak instead.
Rofellos -> Garruk's Companion (Don't have a Rofellos right now, have a foil Companion, plus I always felt Rof was awkward) I wouldn't even add the Companion, but I guess if you need to fill the slot for a card you don't have and you don't want to proxy it, you could put him in for now. Get the elf legend ASAP though.
Chimeric Mass -> Sphere of the Suns (Want to try to help out the 4-5 color decks with Sphere and Lens. There are enough finishers around so Mass shouldn't be missed) I can't get behind Spere of the Suns, but even if you must have it, Steel Hellkite and all 5 of your 5+ mana non-creature artifacts are better cuts.
Mirari's Wake -> Glare of Subdual (One card I've never understood in most cubes. Wake is obviously insanely powerful, but G/W is almost always an aggro deck in my cube, so I'd rather support that) I like Wake more than Glare, but also more than Behemoth Sledge and Loxodon Hierarch. If you want Glare in, I'd cut one of those two.
in my opinion, "unfun" effects are really just effects a player doesn't understand how to use or how to beat. i'd rather understand (and play with others who understand) how to use and beat powerful effects than simplify the cube so no one has to.
For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question.
I like the suggestion, but I think Viridian Emissary as a better spot filler than Garruk's Companion.
Yeah, that's a good catch. I just really hate Emissary. Like, a lot. Ramp spells are not something I want to let my opponent have any control over, and I doubt this guy could ever grab me a land when I want it. The Companion's color intensity should probably keep it out of here though.
in my opinion, "unfun" effects are really just effects a player doesn't understand how to use or how to beat. i'd rather understand (and play with others who understand) how to use and beat powerful effects than simplify the cube so no one has to.
For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question.
I'll most likely have to re-evaluate the Knight change apparently, I'll see what the playgroup believes.
@Strange
Cleansing needs to stay as its another answer to Planeswalkers, and a good catchall at that.
Uktabi being out is a part of my "no functional reprints", as I have Viridian Shaman in. It is getting cut for something.
I've played with Rof in the past and was never too impressed by it...both myself using it and others. Guess it might just end up being my playgroup.
In a vacuum I like Wake more, but it just almost never gets used, and when it does it usually just ends up being a win-more card. The only time I've actually seen it play out properly was comboing it with Stroke and Decree for an awkward Bant control deck.
I don't look at Emissary as a ramp card, but a 2 power beater with an upside. Cube is full of them.
I've played with Rof in the past and was never too impressed by it...both myself using it and others. Guess it might just end up being my playgroup.
...
I don't look at Emissary as a ramp card, but a 2 power beater with an upside. Cube is full of them.
You mean like doubling my green mana? Because I see that as a pretty good upside. Emissary has no evasion, and its "upside" is a weak one. I think you can do much better with 2 drops in green.
I didn't see your "no functional reprint" policy, so sorry about that.
in my opinion, "unfun" effects are really just effects a player doesn't understand how to use or how to beat. i'd rather understand (and play with others who understand) how to use and beat powerful effects than simplify the cube so no one has to.
For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question.
Rof >>>>> Emissary, but I still like Emissary more than Garruk's companion. But if something need to come instead of Uktabi, I'll keep Briarhorn. I like him more than Garruk's Companion. Double green mana doesn't justify its ability. I'll consider him if he is 1G, but not as is.
A Kami is a god in Japanease so ehhh... But unicorns are awesome.
Knight of Meadowgrain -> Leonin Relic-Warder
Pianna, Nomad Captain -> Mirran Crusader
Rout -> Sunblast Angel
Kor Sanctifiers -> Hero of Bladehold
Uktabi Orangutan -> Viridian Emmissary
Rofellos -> Garruk's Companion
Mirari's Wake -> Glare of Subdual
Garruk's Companion isn't really cubeworthy. Glare is in a color pair that is way too tight and Mirari's Wake is top 3 in that pair. The sex monkey is sweet since it's a utility bear that breaks artifacts which is never bad. Rout is probably better than the angel since it hits every creature not just the tapped ones. The rest are switches that take out a good card for another good card. Try finding something else to remove for them.
Welcome to my cube thread. Thanks for checking in, and please feel free to leave some comments.
A quick synopsis of the cube:
- 540 cards. Aiming to be able to draft with 12 players if needed, while also allowing for 8 players to not see every card.
- No "un" cards and no functional reprints and no power 9 cards.
- I am following the legacy ban list, with a few exceptions. The main exception being Mystical Tutor, due to it being banned with combo, which isn't an issue here. That is the same reason Yawg's Will might make it in eventually.
- I've done my best to explain choices/omissions as I remembered. If I screwed a few things up, its due to the timing of this going up.
- Please feel free to comment about choices you like/dislike, and stuff that has worked/hasn't worked for you in the past!
- The cube splits as follows:
67 in each color + artifacts
68 multicolored
70 lands
The cube - 540 cards
[spoiler]:symw::symw: White - 67 cards :symw::symw:
[SPOILER]
Creatures - 36[SPOILER]
Eternal Dragon
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
[/SPOILER]
Non-creatures - 31
[SPOILER]
[/SPOILER]
White notes:
[spoiler]- As with the rest of the cube, I won't be including functional reprints (Ravages of War, Savannah Lions)
- I wanted to avoid using creatures with the Shadow ability. Too often its practically just unblockable, which I understand is the point of evasion, however I'd rather have some ability to interact with them. The Skyfisher/Mistral Charger are an attempt to make up for lack of small, evasive dudes.
- The aim is for white to be a little more aggro than control, with enough good drops for WW to be a realistic deck, as well as good splashable drops for G/W aggro or Naya zoo. (thus the Crusade and Honor of the Pure)[/SPOILER][/spoiler]
:symu::symu: Blue - 67 cards :symu::symu:
[SPOILER]
Creatures - 22[SPOILER]
Enclave Cryptologist
[/SPOILER]
Non-creatures - 45
[SPOILER]
[/SPOILER]
Blue notes:
[spoiler]- I've decided not to include the "untap" cards from Urza. Its a personal choice based on the cards, both dislike from my playgroup as well as my own.
- Non-powered so obviously missing some goods here.
- Blue is obviously going to be the heaviest control color, with some solid finishers[/spoiler][/spoiler]
:symb::symb: Black - 67 cards :symb::symb:
[SPOILER]
Creatures - 33
[SPOILER]
Tombstalker
[/SPOILER]
Non-creatures - 34
[SPOILER]
[/SPOILER]
Black notes:
[spoiler]- The aim with black is to make it the opposite of white, i.e. able to do aggro, but a little more controlling.
- The big one missing here is Yawgmoth's Will. The main reason for leaving it out isn't powerlevel, but lack of understanding in my playgroup (not everyone gets the full advantage of it, plus it lessens without having stuff like Lotuses in the GY)
- Juzaam Djinn being out due to Plague Sliver almost always being the same thing. Close enough to a functional reprint, plus I'd like to eventually have no proxies!
- Currently there is almost no reanimation. I'm not sure how useful reanimation is without big targets.[/spoiler][/spoiler]
:symr::symr: Red - 67 cards :symr::symr:
[SPOILER]
Creatures - 31
[SPOILER]
Siege-Gang Commander
Inferno Titan
[/SPOILER]
Non-creatures - 36
[SPOILER]
Koth of the Hammer
Chandra Nalaar
Destructive Force
[/SPOILER]
Red notes:[spoiler]- Mainly aiming for the best aggro color (as usual with red)
- Not sure if the count on X spells is good or not, as there are more options available if needed[/spoiler][/spoiler]
:symg::symg: Green - 67 cards :symg::symg:
[SPOILER]
Creatures - 45
[SPOILER]
Krosan Tusker
[/SPOILER]
Non-creatures - 22
[SPOILER]
Tooth and Nail
[/SPOILER]
Green notes:
[spoiler]- Green is where I've had the most difficulty I think.
- Not sure on how many 1 drop mana guys, and how to balance aggro out properly.
- I feel like there are too many creatures, but I'm not sure what spells I'd really really want over them.
- Not sure if Tooth and Nail is good enough here.[/spoiler][/spoiler]
:?mana::?mana: Artifacts - 67 cards :?mana::?mana:
[SPOILER]
Creatures - 14
[SPOILER]
Phyrexian Revoker
Gathan Raiders
Razormane Masticore
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan
[/SPOILER]
Non-creatures - 53
[SPOILER]
All Is Dust
[/SPOILER]
Artifacts notes:
[spoiler]- A lot of the "power" artifacts are missing, like Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith and the like. This is again due to the skill level of my play group. They just underrate these cards so its too easy to get them when you shouldn't. Tanglewire, Smokestack and Winter Orb fall into this category too. I know it sucks, but unfortunately, the cube needs to be curved towards them a bit.
- Not sure on the equipment count. Wanted to help Stoneforge be even better.
- Ankh of Mishra is another that would just be criminally underrated, so it stays out for now.
- Still two cards short here...looking for stuff to put in (hoping the rest of SoM block brings goodies)[/spoiler][/spoiler]
:symwu::symbu::symrb::symgr::symgw: Multicolor - 68 cards :symwb::symur::symbg::symrw::symgu:
[SPOILER]
[CARD]Behemoth Sledge
Glare of Subdual
Kitchen Finks
Loam Lion
Loxodon Hierarch
Qasali Pridemage[/CARDS]
Bant - Bant Charm
Esper - Esper Charm
Grixis -Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Jund - Broodmate Dragon
Naya - Wild Nacatl
Junk/Rock - Doran, the Siege Tower - personal favorite of mine, plus a great color combo
American - Lightning Angel
Multicolor notes:[Spoiler]- Still have one open slot here too...preferably for a tri-colored card.
- I consider cards multicolor if you would play it specifically in those colors (i.e. Loam Lion is G/W, Kird Ape is R/G, Jilt is U/R)[/spoiler][/SPOILER]
:symtap::symtap: Lands - 70 cards :symtap::symtap:
[spoiler]
Land notes:[Spoiler]- I chose not to go with duals for now, both based on the monetary aspect and the fact that I wanted to try a different style of fixing. I understand this isn't conventional, but I'm going to see how it goes.
- I'm going with cycles for everything for now, however cycles may be broken in the future (the main one I'm thinking of now is Horizon Canopy in for either Wooded Bastion or Stirring Wildwood)
- I went with 2 utility lands per color as well. Gaea's Cradle and Volrath's Stronghold are money things again.
- I'm not sure of Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge are enough for land disruption. Dust Bowl is an option, and hopefully eventually Wasteland. Strip Mine is out and Rishadan Port is also out (one due to money, other due to legacy ban)
- I know Thawing Glaciers is a popular utility land, however that is once again a "players won't recognize how powerful it is" issue.[/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]
Changelog:
12/1/10[spoiler]Out-> In
Samurai of the Pale Curtain -> Soltari Champion
Mesmeric Fiend -> Oona's Prowler
Abyssal Persecutor -> Sarcomancy
Liliana's Specter -> Carnophage
Hand of Cruelty -> Vampire Lacerator
Tattermunge Maniac -> Kird Ape
Glare of Subdual -> Loam Lion
Naya Charm -> Wild Nacatl
Sedraxis Specter -> Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Invoke the Firemind -> Gelectrode
Ghost Quarter -> Dust Bowl
Stripmine (missing a multicolor, this'll work for now as land 71)[/spoiler]
12/31/10[spoiler]Out-> In
Oath of Druids -> Rampant Growth
Phyrexian Processor -> Steel Hellkite
Morphling -> Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Phyrexian Plaguelord -> Geth
Memnarch -> Thieving Magpie
Mirari's Wake -> Glare of Subdual
Rumbling Slum -> Boggart Ram-Gang
Ashenmoor Gouger -> Rakdos Guildmage
Plumeveil -> Venser, the Sojourner[/spoiler]
2/09/11[spoiler]Out-> In
Blade of the 6th Pride -> Accorder Paladin
Kami of Ancient Law -> Ronom Unicorn
Knight of Meadowgrain -> Leonin Relic-Warder
Pianna, Nomad Captain -> Mirran Crusader
Rout -> Sunblast Angel
Kor Sanctifiers -> Hero of Bladehold
Barter in Blood -> Inquisition of Kozilek
Innocent Blood -> Fume Spitter
Nameless Inversion -> Go for the Throat
Eyeblight's Ending -> Black Sun Zenith
Skeletal Vampire -> Massacre Wurm
Lava Hounds -> Hero of Oxid Ridge
Hammer of Bogardan -> Slagstorm
Lignify -> Green Sun Zenith
Briarhorn -> Thrun, the last Troll
Uktabi Orangutan -> Viridian Emmissary
Rofellos -> Garruk's Companion
Puppet Strings -> Bonehoard
Platinum Emperion -> Phyrexian Revoker
Sword of Vengeance -> Sword of Feast and Famine
Chimeric Mass -> Sphere of the Suns
Mirari's Wake -> Glare of Subdual
Ghost Quarter -> Contested War Zone
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If you like 5 color cards, I would recommend putting in etched oracle. It's the nuts and I think it's better than any wedge shard you could put in.
Invoke the firemind is awful. I hate that card so much, wish it had entwine or cost a little less before the x, gelectrode is better IMO
I would still play kird ape and loam lion without the original duals for sure. Also nacatl, even if you don't get a mountain and plains early, surely you'll get at least one of those, then he's still a 1 mana 2/2
Also, I would cut the multicolor down a little bit, you're starting to get pretty mediocre multi's at that size, like coiling oracle, temporal spring, goblin legionaire, firemane angel, invoke the firemind, jilt, debtor's knell, glare of subdual, fires of yavimaya, rumbling slum, tatturmunge(yeah it should be the ape), ashenmoor gouger, soul manipulation, agony warp, and court hassar.
Those are all sub optimal IMO, and if you cut at least 1 of each multicolor(I would do 2)
Then you can get some more goodies for you mono colors. And pack quality will improve by a long shot.
I'll analyze your mono colored later man.
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Despite wanting to remain Legacy legal, I still think you should add in strip mine (atleast until you get wasteland). Much like how you are ok with Mystical Tutor, Strip Mine isn't an issue due to it not being a 4 of and you are unable to build your deck with it in mind. It is also an important answer to many non-basic lands and helps to keep 5cc honest in there mana base.
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I agree with Mr. Dumpkins advice.
I just added Dust Bowl to my cube and it hasn't seen action yet. I expect good things, though.
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Cheers,
rant
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Yeah, but this isn't a pauper cube.
Wow my bad, I was just in a pauper thread and thought I was still in it I guess. My bad dude.
I totally endorse your statement now that we are in proper context
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samurai of the pale curtain: for double white i want more than bushido and an extremely situational ability that has no effect on strategies that discard into their graveyard.
memnarch: you pay 7 for a 4/5 who fails the terminate and the shatter test. then next turn you have to spend 4UUU to gain control of a permanent. i would rather just play volition reins and get the effect immediately, although i see you run both that and confiscate so you must like that effect. regardless, memnarch just isn't good enough at this size.
is there a reason you're not running any black one drops? there's 4 solid choices that more than make the cut at 540. i highly, highly recommend oona's prowler.
red can definitely get more aggressive, i'd add spikeshot elder, fireslinger, and ghitu slinger. and manic vandal and keldon vandals are also very good. ghostfire and hammer of bogardan are not good enough. the colorless element of ghostfire isn't useful enough to justify the cost and hammer is just too slow.
devoted druid and crop rotation look pretty subpar. tooth and nail has been quite underwhelming here but it looks like your cube is a bit slower than my current list so it could be very strong. i think its value depends highly on speed of environment and size of playgroup.
there's definitely too much multicolor.
i agree that invoke the firemind is just awful. nicol bolas or thraximundar are the better choices in grixis in my opinion. wild nacatl and similar cards do not need duals to be good. doran the siege tower is only really good on turn 3, and the likelihood of that happening is pretty low.
i like dust bowl quite a bit, and welcome to the cube forum!
I'll try to answer in one post here...
@Rantipole
Any solutions that don't involve running those? Are there any two drop fliers I'm missing? I guess its just a personal thing as I see shadow as pretty much unblockable and a silly mechanic inside (for the most part) one block. The fact that many of them are pro-removal colors is the other issue for me.
@hotshot
Never considered it, and probably going to keep it at 6 for now. My cube list started being based off a local buddies, whose is similar sized (540, he goes 75 lands and drops the shard specific multicolors) and he said hes never had an issue with too much multicolor. How do you mean moving to the "guild" system? Isn't it already sorted by that?
@sexyindiancurry
Haven't actually played with this list yet (I'm on an extremely tight budget so I wanted to make sure I wanted specific cards before getting them), however with the cube of my friends, Harm's Way has been great, as has Condemn. Condemn is probably the worst of the three 1 drop removal spells, but still solid. Harm's Way can act like a removal spell and is an amazing trick in creature based fights. Not sure if Shining Shoal is worth keeping in on top though.
@qq
With Samurai, I wasn't sure which white 2 drops to cut (my friend actually had about 16) Like I said, I was doing my best to make both WW and GW effective strategies. Suggestions over it?
Memnarch I wasn't sure on either. He had the tinker package in, plus Master Transmuter. It is one of the cards I'll be watching, and if it doesn't see play, will probably just be replaced with Sphinx of Jwar Isle.
I like the thoughts on red, just again not sure what to cut overall. Ghostfire I can easily see (especially since the colorless aspect is nearly worthless with the removal of pro-red Shadow creatures). Hammer stays in for now as its able to give red decks the reach they need sometimes, but will be watched.
Tooth and Nail was another high question, but I feel like there are enough big finishers that it might be playable. Another one on the "watchlist" if you will.
@all
With that being said, these are the changes that are happening immediately!
Out-> In
Hand of Cruelty -> Vampire Lacerator
Tattermunge Maniac -> Kird Ape
Glare of Subdual -> Loam Lion
Naya Charm -> Wild Nacatl
Sedraxis Specter -> Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Invoke the Firemind -> Gelectrode
Ghost Quarter -> Dust Bowl
Stripmine (missing a multicolor, this'll work for now as land 71)
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Shadow is pretty much unblockable. What's wrong with that? Unblockable really helps aggro win. There are only two that are pro-removal colors (Soltari Priest and Soltari Monk) and you will find that most Cubists consider them among white's most powerful 2-drops. If you want WW, WR aggro, and WB aggro to be viable, the shadow guys are pretty important. If you don't care about those archetypes, then you can skip them. If you search the lists here, you'll see most cubes run Soltari Priest, Soltari Monk, Soltari Champion, Dauthi Horror, and often Dauthi Marauder and Dauthi Slayer. And, at least in my cube, these creatures die all the time. Occasionally, you die to Soltari Priest with a Terminate in your hand, but in other games you just Doom Blade him and go on to win.
I see lots of people complain about shadow. I don't get it. It's a mechanic like any other. Yeah, it makes creatures semi-unblockable. Why is that such an issue? There are still tons of ways to get rid of them and you can always try to race.
If you really don't want to run the shadow guys, you can add Stormfront Pegasus. You've got the other cheap evasive white beaters.
Cheers,
rant
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The "guild" system of organization was brought to my attention by other members of this forum. Essentially what you do is group all multicolored cards, artifacts, and fixers of the same color into a single group. So for example my Azorious guild section looks like this:
And then my Boros guild is as follows:
Ordinarily the color balance, in terms of numbers, might be thrown off by a cycle that excludes enemy color pairs like U/G or U/R; an example is the manland-duals from Worldwake. However, under the "guild" grouping system my numbers for each guild are balanced at 7. I think it is a cleaner way to organize a cube and improve balance.
i'm with you 100%. shroud is a much less interactive mechanic and i don't see people complaining about that.
Blade of the 6th Pride -> Accorder Paladin (obvious upgrade here)
Kami of Ancient Law -> Ronom Unicorn (Unicorns >...whatever Kami is)
Knight of Meadowgrain -> Leonin Relic-Warder (Not sure which WW 2 drop is the worst, Meadowgrain seemed like the best bet. Open to suggestions here)
Pianna, Nomad Captain -> Mirran Crusader (Crusader is a house, and Pianna is the worst of the 3 drops in here)
Rout -> Sunblast Angel (Felt like I had too many wrath effects, so I wanted to change a wrath effect into a sudo-wrath, as well as add a new finisher. Will be watched to see how it works out)
Kor Sanctifiers -> Hero of Bladehold (A new Crusade effect to replace Pianna, plus an awesome top end of a WW deck. Following it up with Geddon is insane)
Barter in Blood -> Inquisition of Kozilek (been wanting to fit Inquisition in for a while, and Barter in Blood just ended up being not being good enough)
Innocent Blood -> Fume Spitter (Helpful against Aggro, and can beat when needed, just not hard)
Nameless Inversion -> Go for the Throat (obvious improvement, the tribal subtype takes a hit in this update, sorry Goyf!)
Eyeblight's Ending -> Black Sun Zenith (read above)
Skeletal Vampire -> Massacre Wurm (New finisher in black. Black is supposed to be more controlling in my cube, so wanted to see how Massacre Wurm worked out. Probably too slow for the uber aggro decks, but seems fine against the aggro-midrange two and three color decks)
Lava Hounds -> Hero of Oxid Ridge (Again, wanting to try new cards)
Hammer of Bogardan -> Slagstorm (New cards, plus Hammer usually ended up doing the same thing Slagstorm can do [three to the dome])
Lignify -> Green Sun Zenith (Technically weakens Goyf's P/T, but 2 goyfs in a deck is so pretty)
Briarhorn -> Thrun, the last Troll (I liked Briarhorn, but Thrun is that good in non--1/-1 and infect environments)
Uktabi Orangutan -> Viridian Emmissary (Had Uktabi and Viridian Shaman in...Apes > Elves, but new frame >> old)
Rofellos -> Garruk's Companion (Don't have a Rofellos right now, have a foil Companion, plus I always felt Rof was awkward)
Puppet Strings -> Bonehoard (Heard it was a house, figured lets test it!)
Platinum Emperion -> Phyrexian Revoker (New cards, plus no tinker!)
Sword of Vengeance -> Sword of Feast and Famine (Was very disappointed with Vengeance. Seems good on paper but 3 to equip is just so much)
Chimeric Mass -> Sphere of the Suns (Want to try to help out the 4-5 color decks with Sphere and Lens. There are enough finishers around so Mass shouldn't be missed)
Mirari's Wake -> Glare of Subdual (One card I've never understood in most cubes. Wake is obviously insanely powerful, but G/W is almost always an aggro deck in my cube, so I'd rather support that)
Ghost Quarter -> Contested War Zone (Want to try out War Zone to see if its as good as I think it'll be)
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Hope that helps.
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Yeah, that's a good catch. I just really hate Emissary. Like, a lot. Ramp spells are not something I want to let my opponent have any control over, and I doubt this guy could ever grab me a land when I want it. The Companion's color intensity should probably keep it out of here though.
@Strange
Cleansing needs to stay as its another answer to Planeswalkers, and a good catchall at that.
Uktabi being out is a part of my "no functional reprints", as I have Viridian Shaman in. It is getting cut for something.
I've played with Rof in the past and was never too impressed by it...both myself using it and others. Guess it might just end up being my playgroup.
In a vacuum I like Wake more, but it just almost never gets used, and when it does it usually just ends up being a win-more card. The only time I've actually seen it play out properly was comboing it with Stroke and Decree for an awkward Bant control deck.
I don't look at Emissary as a ramp card, but a 2 power beater with an upside. Cube is full of them.
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You mean like doubling my green mana? Because I see that as a pretty good upside. Emissary has no evasion, and its "upside" is a weak one. I think you can do much better with 2 drops in green.
I didn't see your "no functional reprint" policy, so sorry about that.
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Knight of Meadowgrain -> Leonin Relic-Warder
Pianna, Nomad Captain -> Mirran Crusader
Rout -> Sunblast Angel
Kor Sanctifiers -> Hero of Bladehold
Uktabi Orangutan -> Viridian Emmissary
Rofellos -> Garruk's Companion
Mirari's Wake -> Glare of Subdual
Garruk's Companion isn't really cubeworthy. Glare is in a color pair that is way too tight and Mirari's Wake is top 3 in that pair. The sex monkey is sweet since it's a utility bear that breaks artifacts which is never bad. Rout is probably better than the angel since it hits every creature not just the tapped ones. The rest are switches that take out a good card for another good card. Try finding something else to remove for them.
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