I've recently build a tribal cube, and while there are a few other tribal cubes on here, I didn't see any that seemed particularly cohesive or looked like they would play particularly well. I've been through 3 revisions on this one already, and I think it's finally ready to be shown off. I'm happy to answer any and all questions about it, as I recognize that this isn't something people have seen a lot of and I hope it's something people are interested in.
The primary mistake I've seen in other tribal cubes is an attempt to focus on too many tribes. I've tried to keep the tribe count low, the playable combinations plentiful, and attempted to focus on tribes that offer many opportunities for tribal interaction. For example, the fact that there are a lot of Kithkin in magic history doesn't mean that there are enough tribal interactions with kithkin to make them playable in this particular format. With that in mind, I've counted all tribes not only for the number of them present in the cube, but the number of tribal interactions within those colors.
When I count the number of tribal spells in the cube, I count tribal cards of that type and cards that create creatures of that type. For example, Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Cenn's Enlistment count as Soldiers, and Tarfire and Fodder Launch count as Goblins.
White - 65 Cards
39 Creatures
26 Noncreature Spells
Blue - 65 Cards
42 Creatures
23 Noncreature Spells
Black - 65 Cards
40 Creatures
25 Noncreature Spells
Red - 65 Cards
40 Creatures
25 Noncreature Spells
Green - 65 Cards
46 Creatures
19 Noncreature Spells
Multicolor - 30 Cards
10 of Each Color Combination
21 Creatures
9 Noncreature Spells
You'll notice there are basically 5 Principal tribes, and then Wizards and Warriors, each which have fewer tribal interactions but combo well with existing tribes. There are Goblin Warrior, Elf Warrior, and Merfolk Wizard decks which are obvious, and some less obvious combinations have also been known to work.
One important thing to know is that we play with house rules that set the universal lords to be one-sided. This means that my Goblin King doesn't give your Chameleon Colossus mountainwalk. Also, cards like Heedless One only count the ones on my side of the field. These rules were put into play because otherwise the games simply weren't fun, especially when it came to using Changelings.
Budget:
While this cube was not built on a budget, per se, I have not invested significant money in it. It's still a work in progress as I try to determine whether it is possible to make a Tribal Cube work. As a result, all of the nontribal spells in the cube were built out of cards I happened to have lying around. At the same time that I built this cube, I took apart several EDH decks and have stopped playing that format, so most of the staple type cards (Day of Judgment, Path to Exile, Damnation, Sakura-Tribe Elder) have come from that. The result of this is that there are some obvious staples that I'm missing. There's no Wrath of God, for instance. Once I get the tribal aspect of the cube where I'm truly happy with it, then I'll invest in some more stuff.
The only other budgetary note I'll make is that I've also left out a very small number of expensive cards that are great in their tribes, that I'd certainly include in the long run but aren't worth spending money on until I've proven the concept. The two that come to mind are Goblin Piledriver and Goblin Lackey, but there may be others. I just don't want to invest money until I'm confident it will be worth it. This is also noticable in the selection of lands that made it into the cube, its just what I had around.
I'd love to get some impressions from people who've done cubes before, even if they haven't done Tribal cubes. I haven't put away my real cube, but my group has been playing this one a little more often lately. It's a ton of fun to play with, and it creates slightly more chill games than the real Cube does, which can be good for when you need a break.
This is a cool cube. Very organized and with cross-referenced data like a champ.
Does this pigeonhole the drafters into one tribe in particular, or are cross-culture decks still competitive? Can you build generic aggro/control and have it be good, or do you need to be playing a tribe to have a chance?
I didn't see any that seemed particularly cohesive or looked like they would play particularly well.
lol this probably wasn't a great way to begin your thread.
the cube looks cool but i have no experience and therefore no way to evaluate it, really. weird to see blue with more creatures than any color except green.
One important thing to know is that we play with house rules that set the universal lords to be one-sided. This means that my Goblin King doesn't give your Chameleon Colossus mountainwalk. Also, cards like Heedless One only count the ones on my side of the field. These rules were put into play because otherwise the games simply weren't fun, especially when it came to using Changelings.
i don't really like this, especially since playable changelings are actually not that numerous. if they are the problem you can leave them out, or only include lords that give bonuses that are less damaging when they affect your opponent's creatures or something. i'd try and make it work without house rules, but maybe that's just me.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I use the same tribes as you minus the obvious non-working tribe warriors. How many warrior lords are there compared to the other tribes? You can't really draft warriors succesfully as a main strategy, when you compare it to Elfs for instance.
And yes - tribal cube does work. I've had mine for about 2.5 years now, so it's not like it's something new though...
Like quitequieter I don't like your houserules at all, because it really just makes the games less interesting...
This is a cool cube. Very organized and with cross-referenced data like a champ.
Heh. It took . . . hours and hours to get all the data cross referenced correctly to build the cube in the first place, and probably another 3 or more to put it into a post for the forum so that someone could actually look at it and see what was going on.
Does this pigeonhole the drafters into one tribe in particular, or are cross-culture decks still competitive? Can you build generic aggro/control and have it be good, or do you need to be playing a tribe to have a chance?
So far, you're definitely pushed into a tribe or pair of tribes. There are a lot of tribal combinations that work really well (Merfolk Wizards, Zombie Goblins, Elf Warriors), and I also see 2 color combinations where one color has the majority of the creatures and the other color is support (i.e., R/W Soldiers with 2 or 3 red creatures and a bunch of burn).
In order to make the tribes good enough to play, the cube is forced into heavily supporting them, which means there simply aren't a lot of cards that are great outside of the tribes for aggro or control. I don't have any particular interest in making nontribal aggro playable, but in future revisions I'd definitely like to have some sort of control deck be more viable. That probably means cutting some blue creatures to fit more counters/draw in, and I haven't figured out how that will work yet.
lol this probably wasn't a great way to begin your thread.
You're right, it's incredibly rude. That said, I wanted to draw attention to the fact that my tribal cube was very different from the 2 or 3 other ones I've seen, which all seem to run every tribal lord ever made, even if there isn't enough support for it. It makes the cubes unplayable in sealed, which accounts for about half of the playtime my cubes get. This is a much more focused cube, and I wanted people who had looked at other Tribal Cubes and dismissed them to really give this one a good look.
the cube looks cool but i have no experience and therefore no way to evaluate it, really. weird to see blue with more creatures than any color except green.
I also noticed this. Blue is definitely lacking in some card draw and countering, but Merfolk and Wizards are already on the lower end of quantity of supported tribes (37 and 39 creatures respectively), so cutting more to fit in additional stuff could be hard. My continued playtesting has that in mind though, as it's definitely weird.
i don't really like this, especially since playable changelings are actually not that numerous. if they are the problem you can leave them out, or only include lords that give bonuses that are less damaging when they affect your opponent's creatures or something. i'd try and make it work without house rules, but maybe that's just me.
I understand your reluctance to use house rules, but let me make a few counterpoints
- All of the changelings are much more playable in this format than anywhere else. With so many cards that care how many X creatures you have in play, having a creature that counts as a Goblin AND a Zombie, or a Merfolk AND a Soldier can be incredibly useful just by itself.
- I play sealed at least as much as I draft with this cube, so the Changelings go a long way in helping you round out your deck well.
- I'd LOVE to limit the lords I include, but I was shocked to find out just how few tribal lords there are at all in Magic. It seems like there should be tons, but there just aren't. Zombies, Elves, Merfolk, and Goblins have 4, Soldiers have 4 and two halves, Warriors have 2. Kithkin have 1, Clerics have 1 or 2, Birds have 1 or 2, Elementals have 1. It's fairly weak, honestly. In order to support sealed play and draft without the full pool (I don't always have 8 drafters), I've gotta keep things built so that the tribes are all as viable as possible without getting a few key cards.
- It's not just the changelings that are the problem. I've gone out of my way to include creatures with two relevant creature types. I don't want to take my W/U Merfolk deck up against my opponents R/U Goblin Deck and end up randomly turning his Razorfin Hunter into a 2/2 or 3/3. That may be within the rules, but it's just not fun.
I use the same tribes as you minus the obvious non-working tribe warriors. How many warrior lords are there compared to the other tribes? You can't really draft warriors succesfully as a main strategy, when you compare it to Elfs for instance.
The reason Warriors and Wizards have been included at all is that I'm trying to support tribal combinations, since I don't expect everyone to always be able to put together a deck thats all 1 tribe. I had a pretty cool Zombie Wizard deck last week that combined Lich Lord of Unx and Azami, Lady of Scrolls to draw tons of cards. Those combinations are what make the cube interesting to me, at least.
I don't want to take my W/U Merfolk deck up against my opponents R/U Goblin Deck and end up randomly turning his Razorfin Hunter into a 2/2 or 3/3. That may be within the rules, but it's just not fun.
that seems like a pretty normal and interesting interaction of a tribal cube to me. i would just leave it that way and not worry about it. because you build your deck to take the best advantage of the lords you run, you should always be ahead of your opponent. it doesn't warrant drastic house rules, in my opinion. but your cube, your rules.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I would think that both decks would accidentally bump each other about evenly, and it would make for a richer gameplay experience. That seems like it could be some of the fun of the tribal cube, actually.
The primary mistake I've seen in other tribal cubes is an attempt to focus on too many tribes.
This is exactly what I did wrong with the first version of my tribal cube. Since I cut both the Scarecrows in the artifact section and Slivers in all colors, the cube runs much better. It only contains 6 and a half tribes now - similar to yours. Interestingly, only three tribes are the same (Merfolk, Goblins and Elves). The other tribes I run are Kithkin, Vampires and Elementals - the last one with the most members, but spread across all five colors. Lastly, I run a few Allies as a mini tribe.
Regarding your house rule: Like the others, I'm not a fan of that either. To avoid those annoying situations where you accidentally help your opponent, I only run lords that exclusively pump your own creatures.
Lastly, I really like the way how you present your cube. This looks really like a lot of thought and a lot of work went into it.
I'm really intrigued that everyone feels so strongly about the house rules. Wizards themselves has basically admitted that they don't think thats how lords should work, with the change in lord wording from Goblin King to Goblin Chieftain. What is it about sticking to the old way cards worked that makes it feel more "right" to you?
This is exactly what I did wrong with the first version of my tribal cube. Since I cut both the Scarecrows in the artifact section and Slivers in all colors, the cube runs much better. It only contains 6 and a half tribes now - similar to yours. Interestingly, only three tribes are the same (Merfolk, Goblins and Elves). The other tribes I run are Kithkin, Vampires and Elementals - the last one with the most members, but spread across all five colors. Lastly, I run a few Allies as a mini tribe.
Vamps I get, but I just didn't find enough support to run Elementals and Kithkin. There just weren't enough cards that got better with lots of Elementals or Kithkin in play to make it worth it to me. I ran both in the first draft, then cut Kithkin for Clerics, then cut the second white tribe altogether and extended Merfolk and Wizards to make up for the loss.
Since I cut both the Scarecrows in the artifact section and Slivers in all colors, the cube runs much better.
lol scarecrows are basically the worst tribe ever. most of them are overcosted and they only have one lord. running scarecrows in a tribal cube would definitely mess up the way it played.
What is it about sticking to the old way cards worked that makes it feel more "right" to you?
that's how they're written. as a cube designer, i'm not interested in making my own cards. if a card doesn't work the way i want it, i leave it out of the cube. if you start making house rules, you might as well just make a custom cube with all fake cards. not everyone feels this way but i think a lot of people do and it accounts for the response you're getting.
and i honestly don't think playing the cards as written would ruin the cube for me. i think it would actually be more interesting.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
that's how they're written. as a cube designer, i'm not interested in making my own cards. if a card doesn't work the way i want it, i leave it out of the cube. if you start making house rules, you might as well just make a custom cube with all fake cards. not everyone feels this way but i think a lot of people do and it accounts for the response you're getting.
and i honestly don't think playing the cards as written would ruin the cube for me. i think it would actually be more interesting.
So how do you treat Oracle text? That's an update to accomodate changes to the way rules and situations are handled. Do you still play cards with their original wording if they've been updated by Wizards?
I assume the answer to that is no, at which point I ask why it's more ok for Wizards to change the way they want to do something than me.
So how do you treat Oracle text? That's an update to accomodate changes to the way rules and situations are handled. Do you still play cards with their original wording if they've been updated by Wizards?
I assume the answer to that is no, at which point I ask why it's more ok for Wizards to change the way they want to do something than me.
J
1. I'm probably in the minority but I don't play with oracle text updated. I play with whatever it says on the card. Its easier than trying to remember the wording or having to look up what the official ruling on a card is. I don't go out of my way to find obscure text that breaks cards but I like how I can sacrifice my Dauthi Horror to Ravenous Baloth and gain four life.
2. The reason its more ok for Wizards to update the cards is because of that little tradmark you see at the bottom of the cards. Wizards owns them and they can do whatever they want with them. You can do the same thing but we won't take you as seriously unless its your name next to the copyright at the bottom of the cards.
So how do you treat Oracle text? That's an update to accomodate changes to the way rules and situations are handled. Do you still play cards with their original wording if they've been updated by Wizards?
I assume the answer to that is no, at which point I ask why it's more ok for Wizards to change the way they want to do something than me.
i'll get this out of the way early: i'm not telling you what to do. do whatever you want, dude. i'm just saying it's not what i would do. besides that, my answer:
1. the oracle wordings are usually either identical or as close as possible to the original intent of the card. they have reversed basically all power level errata, and tribal errata is often obvious and improves the card. the game was sometimes clunky and ridiculous back in the day, and i'm fine with them cleaning it up, especially considering...
2. they make the cards. they make the game. so yes, they are more qualified than i when it comes to changing how a card works.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Oh, I know you're not telling me what to do, and I'm not insulted, offended, put out, or anything else. I'm totally willing to agree to disagree, and I'll drop it if people are tired of the conversation. I'm just thoroughly intrigued that absolutely nobody agrees with me on this, and I'm attempting to make my case in a well-reasoned discussion that stays at an adult level.
My point, otherwise, is that I personally feel the printing of Goblin Chieftain, Elvish Archdruid, and Captain of the Watch says a lot about how Wizards wants tribal lords to work. If they were to errata the original text on cards like Goblin King, Elvish Champion, and Field Marshal, there would probably be a bit of an uproar from some legacy/vintage players, so they've left things the way they are. However, I'm taking my cue from the way they currently design cards and playing cards the way they are now choosing to print them.
Yes, Wizards is certainly more qualified than me to make changes to cards, but I think they've made their intent clear when it comes to the functioning of Tribal Lords, and I'm gonna go with their intent.
All that said, it'd completely make my day if they did another Tribal block sometime soon that would give me the tools I need to do a Tribal cube without this nonsense.
My point, otherwise, is that I personally feel the printing of Goblin Chieftain, Elvish Archdruid, and Captain of the Watch says a lot about how Wizards wants tribal lords to work. If they were to errata the original text on cards like Goblin King, Elvish Champion, and Field Marshal, there would probably be a bit of an uproar from some legacy/vintage players, so they've left things the way they are. However, I'm taking my cue from the way they currently design cards and playing cards the way they are now choosing to print them.
it's obvious from the way they've printed new cards that they never intended balance, counterspell, brainstorm, tarmogoyf, sol ring or even stone rain to be as good as they are, but i have no interest in redesigning those cards to reflect their intention. i just want to play the cards they make for me. i'll leave the designing to the designers.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
My point, otherwise, is that I personally feel the printing of Goblin Chieftain, Elvish Archdruid, and Captain of the Watch says a lot about how Wizards wants tribal lords to work. If they were to errata the original text on cards like Goblin King, Elvish Champion, and Field Marshal, there would probably be a bit of an uproar from some legacy/vintage players, so they've left things the way they are. However, I'm taking my cue from the way they currently design cards and playing cards the way they are now choosing to print them.
Yes, Wizards is certainly more qualified than me to make changes to cards, but I think they've made their intent clear when it comes to the functioning of Tribal Lords, and I'm gonna go with their intent.
All that said, it'd completely make my day if they did another Tribal block sometime soon that would give me the tools I need to do a Tribal cube without this nonsense.
J
If I have time I'll go over your cube and comment. But basicly you could just look at my cube that have the same tribes as you, plus some support tribes. And if your worried my cube have also been "Proven to work" and is quite fun to play with (not as fun as a normal cube imo). I primarily use mine to introduce new players to cubing because it's a little easier to draft a tribal cube than a normal cube. Basicly most new guys just choose a tribe and stick to it...
Concerning the house rule, do whatever you want. I just feel that it's so few cards that it hardly matters. Secondly it makes changelings a bit better, which i don't mind. Thirdly it makes blue cards that mingle with creature types a bit better, and finally it just makes the boardpositions more complex and more interesting imo. Tribal cube is all about difficult boardpositions imo.
What about borderline lords like Eladamri, Lord of Leaves? Do you also change his rules? That's also a great example of another thing I don't like. You actually remove the bad thing some of the lords gives. In this case Forestwalk/Shroud to your opponents creatures.
First of all I must tell you, that I think your title and your post-opener shows you as a bit arrogant. Maybe that was the intention, but it have put me a little off atleast. I for instance happen to be rather happy with my tribal cube (although I don't play it that often).
You have chosen very similar tribes to the ones I play, and further more you have almost the same card selection in the creature section. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe it's not. Anyway your cube aren't as original as you might think, because 80% of your cardchoices are cards I also have in my tribal cube.
I think your cardchoices mostly are ok, and the only big error I can spot is that your curve is a bit on the heavy side in some of the colors.
CMC3:
I think you have to many cards here, compared to the CMC2 section.
Harpoon Sniper: How have this card been for you? I recenltly removed it because it didn't perform. Too often the Merfolk player wouldn't play white and this card would end up in a sideboard.
Mirror Entity: I have chosen not to include this card in my cube because of power reasons. It's just too good for tribal cube unfortunatly. If the opponent doesn't kill it immediatly it will win the game alone.
IN:
Kinsbaile Borderguard (this card is absolutely insane)
Descendant of Kiyomaro
CMC4:
OUT:
Aven Cloudchaser
IN:
Enlistment Officer - Don't understand why you don't play this???
Loxodon Gatekeeper
CMC5:
OUT:
Wellgabber Apothecary - this is not good enough to play, let alone splash.
IN:
Phantom Flock
Stormfront Riders
CMC6:
OUT:
Gempalm Avenger - just ended up in sideboards all the time in my playgroup.
IN:
Aven Brigadier - You should play all lords in this format!
NON-CREATURES:
In your noncreature section I think you play way to powerful spells. The problem here is that when your players figure this out the tribal element will fall drastically. With removal this good, you will end up with a format consisting of very bad creatures. The removal will be aimed at the lords, and then you are just stuck with a couple of sucky elfs (or something similar). I've tried this approach in the past, and I've also written an article about the subject a couple of years back (in danish though).
In a tribal cube you really want to enforce the tribal element, and therefor you need to play mediocre/bad removal, so players will pick the tribal lords over the removal. Thereby the tribal element will be in focus, instead of the format beeing dominated by removal. Atleast that was that happened in my cube, where new non-tribal archetypes was the most dominant because of this problem.
I see that you play mass removal in your tribal cube. How has this played out? I was reluctant to add mass removal at first, since I want my tribal cube to be a very creature heavy format. We did our first two drafts without any effect that hurt all creatures in play and it worked. Since I was worried that without any mass removal, there was almost no strategic reason to hold creatures back, I added a few mass removal spells (~10 in a 400 card cube, counting the mediocre ones like Ascendant Evincar). I promptly drafted a BRU control deck during our next draft... That sucked, since this hurt my "creature heavy format" goal. However, reading bondafong's comment on the power of removal in a tribal cube, I realized that maybe the mass removal alone wasn't the main reason for this problem. I run some good removal and while the others picked lords and changelings high, I picked Terror and Terminate.
Short version:
1) Does mass removal belong in a tribal cube? How powerful should it be?
2) How much spot removal should one use?
Btw, to reduce the potency of the removal in my tribal cube and to increase tribal effects, I will most likely replace Terror with Feast of Blood.
The short answer to both of your questions comes in two parts
- I play sealed way more than draft, so there no opportunity to "pick high" all of the good removal. You get the removal you get.
- The exact problems you mention are the reason that the cube is so incredibly densely focused on the 7 tribes, and the reason I'm running every lord possible, even at the expense of some house rules. It's the reason I've tried to make sure that in addition to the 3 or 4 "lords" each tribe has, that there are a ton of OTHER good creatures that also enhance tribal interactions. Otherwise you're basically just playing a huge game of crappy slivers and hoping to draw your Muscles and Sinews while playing out your Metallics and Vensers. Thats no fun.
I played a R/B Goblin deck last week with a ton of removal. Lots of burn and destroy effects. I lost to a W/r soldier deck. I killed the Field Marshal and the Captain of the Watch, and ended up losing to Cenn's Tactician. No, it's not a tribal lord, but it makes soldiers better. Pretty sure the killing blow was dealt by a 5/6 Kor Skyfisher.
Mass removal hasn't been a problem either. IMO, the reason a deck like Elves has constructed problems against Day of Judgment is because in constructed, the Day of Judgment player is going to follow that up with Baneslayer Angel and ride to victory. In this cube, the best thing the DoJ player can follow it up with is . . . what, Galepowder Mage? Wrath effects are still very powerful, because the person who controls them can make sure they're in a good position to recover, but I haven't felt they've been a threat to the format at all.
Apparently I offended some people with my disparaging remarks about other tribal cubes, and I apologize for that. These last two questions, however, have really brought to light where I was coming from. I have no interest in playing a cube that thinks Terror or Day of Judgment is too good. I don't want to play a cube where you can safely drop your Merfolk Sovereign and know you've got an unblockable creature til the end of the game. I want to have a very strong, high-powered cube that simply runs tribal creatures instead of other strong ones.
Another example is the fact that one of you mentioned an inability to support Mirror Entity. You've created a cycle. You can't run powerful spells because you don't want the Lords to die, but now you can't run powerful creatures because the removal isn't strong enough. Yes, Mirror Entity is great, but not so great that he can't be answered in a healthy format.
A good deck in my cube has at least 6 cards in your main tribe from the Tribal Interactions category of my list. They're not all lords, but they all have some pretty good effects. Some of the champion creatures can really own the game if not dealt with, and some of the other effects are powerful as well (see my comment about losing to Cenn's Tactician).
As to a few specific suggestions
Kinsbaile Borderguard - when I tried to support Kithkin he was in. When I pulled them he came out. Again, if you can't get 5 or 6 strong tribal support cards, the tribe isn't worth running, and there are only about 6 total strong tribal kithkin cards in existence, which means nobody is ever gonna get 'em all.
Feast of Blood - I don't run Vamps . . . this would never get cast. Zombies just have better support than vamps so far. Maybe in a year or two, the way things are going, but right now Zombies have so many more good cards to choose from.
Enlistment Officer - on my list of cards to slot in, didn't have one around
Aven Brigadier - Was surprised to see you mention this because I thought he was in. Not entirely sure how that happened. I'll make sure he gets back in
Gempalm Avenger - really? It can be quite a blowout if you don't already have Rhox Pikemaster out. I mean, you only ever cycle it, but thats ok. 3 mana for a good combat trick that replaces itself?
Harpoon Sniper - So far I've only played him once but he was pretty strong. It was a high concentration deck (I think with Changelings I had 16 merfolk) so I was able to kill almost anything. I tend to see Merfolk splashing white more than any other color.
Ok - fair enough that it works for you with alot of good removal and Mirror Entity.
I just say that when I had all the good removal in my cube, and when I had Mirror entity, too many "regular" cube decks emerged. When I play I'm generally a Spike/Johnny, and just do what I can to win.
That meant I very often ended up drafting a removal-heavy deck with some random good creatures, not caring as much about tribal interactions. Mirror Entity is for instance a very good creature, but has really has no interactions with other creatures. He just wins the turn after he entered the board, if you play him correctly.
I understand that you want to play powerful cards, but the "healthiest" tribal decks emerge from cutting down on removal and single card strategies. That was the case in my playgroup at least.
With your cube for instace, I could imagine black and red beeing really realy good colors. I would probably force one of these colors every time I played it (as I did with my own cube). Tribal drafting is very creature oriented, thus making removal much better. If you can get a 10 removal // 13 creatures deck, you'll almost certainly win every time, because you can remove your opponents key creatures, leaving him with the sucky ones.
If you want to play good removal you can just play less though... If it works for your playgroup it's ofcourse fine though. But try to keep what I said in mind next time you draft, and try to force the removal-deck if you can, just to see what happens.
Like I said, we play sealed, so we don't get those opportunities, which may be the biggest difference.
I just don't have a big enough playgroup for draft to be reliably fun. There's only 4 of us, which means after pack 1 everyone knows what tribe everyone else is in . . . and then its just awkward.
That meant I very often ended up drafting a removal-heavy deck with some random good creatures, not caring as much about tribal interactions. Mirror Entity is for instance a very good creature, but has really has no interactions with other creatures. He just wins the turn after he entered the board, if you play him correctly..
This may be one of the differences mass removal plays. It's usually pretty hard to create that situation in this deck, you don't reliably have 5 or 6 creatures just waiting to be turned into enormous dudes.
The primary mistake I've seen in other tribal cubes is an attempt to focus on too many tribes. I've tried to keep the tribe count low, the playable combinations plentiful, and attempted to focus on tribes that offer many opportunities for tribal interaction. For example, the fact that there are a lot of Kithkin in magic history doesn't mean that there are enough tribal interactions with kithkin to make them playable in this particular format. With that in mind, I've counted all tribes not only for the number of them present in the cube, but the number of tribal interactions within those colors.
When I count the number of tribal spells in the cube, I count tribal cards of that type and cards that create creatures of that type. For example, Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Cenn's Enlistment count as Soldiers, and Tarfire and Fodder Launch count as Goblins.
White - 65 Cards
39 Creatures
26 Noncreature Spells
Blue - 65 Cards
42 Creatures
23 Noncreature Spells
Black - 65 Cards
40 Creatures
25 Noncreature Spells
Red - 65 Cards
40 Creatures
25 Noncreature Spells
Green - 65 Cards
46 Creatures
19 Noncreature Spells
Multicolor - 30 Cards
10 of Each Color Combination
21 Creatures
9 Noncreature Spells
Artifacts - 25 Cards
4 Creatures
10 Equipment
4 Mana
7 Utility
Land - 40 Cards
10 Karoos
10 Filters
5 M10s
5 Vivids
5 Shards
5 Specialty
Soldiers - White
43 Soldiers
18 Tribal Interactions
Merfolk - Blue / White
37 Merfolk
18 Tribal Interactions
Zombies - Black
34 Zombies
19 Tribal Interactions
Goblins - Red / Black
46 Goblins
22 Tribal Interactions
Elves - Green
42 Elves
22 Tribal Interactions
Wizards - Blue / White
39 Wizards
12 Tribal Interactions
Warriors - Green / Red
36 Warriors
9 Tribal Interactions
One important thing to know is that we play with house rules that set the universal lords to be one-sided. This means that my Goblin King doesn't give your Chameleon Colossus mountainwalk. Also, cards like Heedless One only count the ones on my side of the field. These rules were put into play because otherwise the games simply weren't fun, especially when it came to using Changelings.
Budget:
While this cube was not built on a budget, per se, I have not invested significant money in it. It's still a work in progress as I try to determine whether it is possible to make a Tribal Cube work. As a result, all of the nontribal spells in the cube were built out of cards I happened to have lying around. At the same time that I built this cube, I took apart several EDH decks and have stopped playing that format, so most of the staple type cards (Day of Judgment, Path to Exile, Damnation, Sakura-Tribe Elder) have come from that. The result of this is that there are some obvious staples that I'm missing. There's no Wrath of God, for instance. Once I get the tribal aspect of the cube where I'm truly happy with it, then I'll invest in some more stuff.
The only other budgetary note I'll make is that I've also left out a very small number of expensive cards that are great in their tribes, that I'd certainly include in the long run but aren't worth spending money on until I've proven the concept. The two that come to mind are Goblin Piledriver and Goblin Lackey, but there may be others. I just don't want to invest money until I'm confident it will be worth it. This is also noticable in the selection of lands that made it into the cube, its just what I had around.
Creatures (39)
1CMC
Elite Vanguard
Goldmeadow Harrier
Infantry Veteran
2CMC
Ballyrush Banneret
Blinding Mage
Catapult Squad
Cenn's Tactician
Judge of Currents
Kazandu Blademaster
Kor Skyfisher
Veteran Armorsmith
3CMC
Avian Changeling
Ballynock Cohort
Burrenton Bombardier
Field Marshal
Harpoon Sniper
Kithkin Zephyrnaut
Mangara of Corondor
Mirror Entity
Preeminent Captain
Stonybrook Schoolmaster
Undead Slayer
Veteran Swordsmith
4CMC
Aven Cloudchaser
Ballynock Trapper
Benalish Commander
Changeling Sentinel
Daru Warchief
Galepowder Mage
Rhox Pikemaster
Veteran of the Depths
5CMC
Catapult Master
Changeling Hero
Knight-Captain of Eos
Wandering Graybeard
Wellgabber Apothecary
6CMC
Captain of the Watch
Gempalm Avenger
Grassland Crusader
Noncreatures (26)
1CMC
Condemn
Coordinated Barrage
Harm's Way
Land Tax
Path to Exile
Shields of Velis Vel
Swords to Plowshares
2CMC
Disenchant
Journey to Nowhere
Pacifism
Raise the Alarm
Shared Triumph
3CMC
Crib Swap
Glorious Anthem
Mobilization
Oblivion Ring
Prison Term
4CMC
Cenn's Enlistment
Day of Judgment
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Faith's Fetters
Summon the School
5CMC
Conqueror's Pledge
6CMC
Akroma's Vengeance
Nomads' Assembly
XCMC
Martial Coup
Soldiers (32)
1CMC
Elite Vanguard
Goldmeadow Harrier
Infantry Veteran
2CMC
Ballyrush Banneret
Catapult Squad
Cenn's Tactician
Kazandu Blademaster
Kor Skyfisher
Raise the Alarm
Veteran Armorsmith
3CMC
Ballynock Cohort
Burrenton Bombardier
Field Marshal
Kithkin Zephyrnaut
Mobilization
Preeminent Captain
Veteran Swordsmith
4CMC
Aven Cloudchaser
Ballynock Trapper
Benalish Commander
Cenn's Enlistment
Daru Warchief
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Rhox Pikemaster
Veteran of the Depths
5CMC
Catapult Master
Conqueror's Pledge
6CMC
Captain of the Watch
Gempalm Avenger
Grassland Crusader
Nomads' Assembly
7CMC
Martial Coup
Merfolk (6)
2CMC
Judge of Currents
3CMC
Harpoon Sniper
Stonybrook Schoolmaster
4CMC
Summon the School
Veteran of the Depths
5CMC
Wellgabber Apothecary
Wizards (7)
2CMC
Blinding Mage
Judge of Currents
3CMC
Mangara of Corondor
Stonybrook Schoolmaster
4CMC
Galepowder Mage
Summon the School
5CMC
Wandering Graybeard
Soldiers (17)
2CMC
Ballyrush Banneret
Catapult Squad
Cenn's Tactician
Veteran Armorsmith
3CMC
Field Marshal
Kithkin Zephyrnaut
Mobilization
Preeminent Captain
Veteran Swordsmith
4CMC
Benalish Commander
Daru Warchief
Rhox Pikemaster
5CMC
Catapult Master
Knight-Captain of Eos
6CMC
Captain of the Watch
Gempalm Avenger
Grassland Crusader
Merfolk (4)
2CMC
Judge of Currents
3CMC
Harpoon Sniper
4CMC
Summon the School
5CMC
Wellgabber Apothecary
Wizards (1)
5CMC
Wandering Graybeard
Elves (1)
6CMC
Grassland Crusader
Creatures (42)
1CMC
Enclave Cryptologist
Imagecrafter
Mothdust Changeling
Skywatcher Adept
2CMC
Amoeboid Changeling
Coralhelm Commander
Lord of Atlantis
Information Dealer
Merfolk Looter
Sejiri Merfolk
Shapesharer
Silvergill Adept
Silvergill Douser
Stonybrook Angler
Stonybrook Banneret
3CMC
AEther Adept
Gempalm Sorcerer
Ghosthelm Courier
Merfolk Sovereign
Merrow Reejerey
Sage of Fables
Sigil Tracer
Streambed Aquitects
Thada Adel, Acquisitor
Wake Thrasher
4CMC
Clone
Fallowsage
Fatestitcher
Inspired Sprite
Merfolk Skyscout
Merrow Harbinger
Riptide Director
Seahunter
Surgespanner
Turtleshell Changeling
5CMC
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Mulldrifter
Sea Gate Loremaster
Waterspout Weavers
6CMC
Arcanis the Omnipotent
7CMC
Benthicore
Mistform Skyreaver
Noncreatures (23)
1CMC
Acquitect's Will
Brainstorm
Ponder
Trickery Charm
2CMC
Counterspell
Disperse
Essence Scatter
Mana Leak
Merrow Commerce
Narcolepsy
Negate
Remove Soul
Sage's Dousing
Standardize
Wings of Velis Vel
Unnatural Selection
3CMC
Compulsive Research
Ego Erasure
Jace Beleren
4CMC
Control Magic
Distant Melody
Opposition
Sleep
Merfolk (26)
1CMC
Acquitect's Will
Enclave Cryptologist
Skywatcher Adept
2CMC
Coralhelm Commander
Lord of Atlantis
Merfolk Looter
Merrow Commerce
Sejiri Merfolk
Silvergill Adept
Silvergill Douser
Stonybrook Angler
Stonybrook Banneret
3CMC
Merfolk Sovereign
Merrow Reejerey
Sage of Fables
Sigil Tracer
Streambed Aquitects
Thada Adel, Acquisitor
Wake Thrasher
4CMC
Fallowsage
Merfolk Skyscout
Merrow Harbinger
Surgespanner
5CMC
Sea Gate Loremaster
Waterspout Weavers
7CMC
Benthicore
Wizards (24)
1CMC
Enclave Cryptologist
Imagecrafter
Skywatcher Adept
2CMC
Information Dealer
Silvergill Douser
Stonybrook Angler
Stonybrook Banneret
3CMC
AEther Adept
Gempalm Sorcerer
Ghosthelm Courier
Sage's Dousing
Sage of Fables
Sigil Tracer
4CMC
Fallowsage
Fatestitcher
Inspired Sprite
Merrow Harbinger
Riptide Director
Surgespanner
5CMC
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Sea Gate Loremaster
Waterspout Weavers
6CMC
Arcanis the Omnipotent
7CMC
Benthicore
Soldiers (4)
2CMC
Coralhelm Commander
Sejiri Merfolk
3CMC
Merrow Reejerey
Wake Thrasher
Zombies (1)
4CMC
Fatestitcher
Merfolk (13)
1CMC
Acquitect's Will
2CMC
Coralhelm Commander
Lord of Atlantis
Merrow Commerce
Silvergill Adept
Silvergill Douser
Stonybrook Banneret
3CMC
Merfolk Sovereign
Merrow Reejerey
Streambed Aquitects
4CMC
Merrow Harbinger
5CMC
Waterspout Weavers
7CMC
Benthicore
Wizards (11)
2CMC
Information Dealer
Stonybrook Banneret
3CMC
Gempalm Sorcerer
Ghosthelm Courier
Sage's Dousing
Sage of Fables
Sigil Tracer
4CMC
Inspired Sprite
Riptide Director
5CMC
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Waterspout Weavers
Creatures (40)
1CMC
Carnophage
Festering Goblin
2CMC
Auntie's Snitch
Boneknitter
Frogtosser Banneret
Shepherd of Rot
Skeletal Changeling
Squeaking Pie Sneak
Stromgald Crusader
Viscera Dragger
Withered Wretch
3CMC
Boggart Harbinger
Cemetery Reaper
Death Baron
Fleshbag Marauder
Ghostly Changeling
Lord of the Undead
Mad Auntie
Moonglove Changeling
Phyrexian Ghoul
Rotlung Reanimator
Undead Gladiator
Zombie Master
Zombie Trailblazer
4CMC
Boggart Mob
Deathmark Prelate
Gravebane Zombie
Gravedigger
Soulless One
Stenchskipper
Undead Warchief
Vengeful Dead
5CMC
Cairn Wanderer
Corpse Harvester
Noxious Ghoul
Phyrexian Delver
Shriekmaw
Warren Pilferers
6CMC
Gravespawn Sovereign
Grixis Slavedriver
Noncreatures (25)
1CMC
Disfigure
Quest for the Gravelord
Vampiric Tutor
2CMC
Animate Dead
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Edict
Doom Blade
Exhume
Nameless Inversion
Night's Whisper
Terror
3CMC
Phyrexian Arena
Sudden Death
4CMC
Aphetto Dredging
Damnation
Fodder Launch
Makeshift Mannequin
5CMC
Beacon of Unrest
Call to the Grave
Clutch of Undeath
Cruel Revival
Liliana Vess
Rise from the Grave
8CMC
Decree of Pain
XCMC
Profane Command
Zombies (28)
1CMC
Carnophage
Festering Goblin
Quest for the Gravelord
2CMC
Boneknitter
Shepherd of Rot
Stromgald Crusader
Viscera Dragger
Withered Wretch
3CMC
Cemetery Reaper
Death Baron
Fleshbag Marauder
Lord of the Undead
Phyrexian Ghoul
Rotlung Reanimator
Undead Gladiator
Zombie Master
Zombie Trailblazer
4CMC
Gravebane Zombie
Gravedigger
Soulless One
Undead Warchief
Vengeful Dead
5CMC
Corpse Harvester
Noxious Ghoul
Phyrexian Delver
Rise from the Grave
6CMC
Gravespawn Sovereign
Grixis Slavedriver
Goblins (9)
1CMC
Festering Goblin
2CMC
Auntie's Snitch
Frogtosser Banneret
Squeaking Pie Sneak
3CMC
Boggart Harbinger
Mad Auntie
4CMC
Boggart Mob
Fodder Launch
5CMC
Warren Pilferers
Warriors (3)
2CMC
Viscera Dragger
3CMC
Fleshbag Marauder
4CMC
Boggart Mob
Wizards (2)
3CMC
Death Baron
5CMC
Corpse Harvester
Zombies (17)
2CMC
Boneknitter
Shepherd of Rot
3CMC
Cemetery Reaper
Death Baron
Lord of the Undead
Zombie Master
Zombie Trailblazer
4CMC
Deathmark Prelate
Gravebane Zombie
Soulless One
Undead Warchief
Vengeful Dead
5CMC
Call to the Grave
Clutch of Undeath
Corpse Harvester
Cruel Revival
Noxious Ghoul
6CMC
Gravespawn Sovereign
Goblins (9)
2CMC
Auntie's Snitch
Frogtosser Banneret
Squeaking Pie Sneak
3CMC
Boggart Harbinger
Mad Auntie
4CMC
Boggart Mob
Fodder Launch
Stenchskipper
5CMC
Warren Pilferers
Creatures (40)
1CMC
Goblin Guide
Mogg Fanatic
2CMC
Bloodmark Mentor
Brighthearth Banneret
Fire-Belly Changeling
Goblin Bushwhacker
Mogg Flunkies
Mogg War Marshal
Mudbrawler Cohort
Slavering Nulls
Spikeshot Goblin
Tin Street Hooligan
Warren Instigator
3CMC
Gempalm Incinerator
Goblin Artillery
Goblin Chieftain
Goblin King
Goblin Matron
Goblin Ruinblaster
Goblin Warchief
Manic Vandal
Taurean Mauler
Torch Slinger
Tuktuk the Explorer
Whip Sergeant
4CMC
Caterwauling Boggart
Changeling Berserker
Goblin Razerunners
Lightning Crafter
Moggcatcher
Reckless one
Tuktuk Scrapper
Vengeful Firebrand
War-Spike Changeling
5CMC
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Lovisa Coldeyes
Siege-Gang Commander
Voracious Dragon
7CMC
Boldwyr Intimidator
Noncreatures (25)
1CMC
Burst Lightning
Lightning Bolt
Magma Spray
Tarfire
2CMC
Blades of Velis Vel
Incinerate
Lash Out
3CMC
Browbeat
Flame Javelin
Goblin Assault
Pillage
Puncture Blast
Shared Animosity
Staggershock
Volcanic Fallout
4CMC
Chain Reaction
Roar of the Crowd
5CMC
Beacon of Destruction
Chandra Nalaar
7CMC
Grab the Reins
XCMC
Banefire
Comet Storm
Earthquake
Fireball
Goblin Offensive
Goblins (29)
1CMC
Goblin Guide
Mogg Fanatic
Tarfire
2CMC
Bloodmark Mentor
Goblin Bushwhacker
Goblin Chieftain
Goblin Warchief
Mogg Flunkies
Mogg War Marshal
Mudbrawler Cohort
Slavering Nulls
Spikeshot Goblin
Tin Street Hooligan
Warren Instigator
3CMC
Gempalm Incinerator
Goblin Artillery
Goblin Assault
Goblin King
Goblin Matron
Goblin Ruinblaster
Torch Slinger
Tuktuk the Explorer
4CMC
Caterwauling Boggart
Goblin Razerunners
Lightning Crafter
Reckless one
Tuktuk Scrapper
5CMC
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Siege-Gang Commander
Warriors (12)
2CMC
Bloodmark Mentor
Brighthearth Banneret
Goblin Bushwhacker
Mogg War Marshal
Mudbrawler Cohort
3CMC
Goblin Artillery
Goblin Warchief
Manic Vandal
4CMC
Goblin Razerunners
Vengeful Firebrand
5CMC
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
7CMC
Boldwyr Intimidator
Zombies (1)
2CMC
Slavering Nulls
Soldiers (1)
3CMC
Whip Sergeant
Goblins (11)
2CMC
Warren Instigator
3CMC
Gempalm Incinerator
Goblin Assault
Goblin Chieftain
Goblin King
Goblin Matron
Goblin Warchief
4CMC
Caterwauling Boggart
Lightning Crafter
Reckless one
5CMC
Siege-Gang Commander
Warriors (4)
2CMC
Brighthearth Banneret
4CMC
Vengeful Firebrand
5CMC
Lovisa Coldeyes
7CMC
Boldwyr Intimidator
Creatures (46)
1CMC
Essence Warden
Fyndhorn Elves
Heritage Druid
Joraga Treespeaker
Llanowar Elves
Nettle Sentinel
2CMC
Beastbreaker of Bala Ged
Bramblewood Paragon
Elvish Vanguard
Elvish Visionary
Gempalm Strider
Priest of Titania
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Seeker of Skybreak
Twinblade Slasher
Viridian Zealot
Wellwisher
Wirewood Herald
Wolf-Skull Shaman
Woodland Changeling
Wren's Run Vanquisher
3CMC
Caller of the Hunt
Civic Wayfinder
Elvish Archdruid
Elvish Branchbender
Elvish Champion
Elvish Harbinger
Farhaven Elf
Imperious Perfect
Joraga Warcaller
Rhys the Exiled
Thornscape Battlemage
Timberwatch Elf
Viridian Shaman
Winnower Patrol
4CMC
Ambassador Oak
Chameleon Colossus
Heedless One
Lys Alana Huntmaster
Sosuke, Son of Seshiro
Unstoppable Ash
Wren's Run Packmaster
5CMC
Changeling Titan
Game-Trail Changeling
6CMC
Roughshod Mentor
Noncreatures (19)
1CMC
Giant Growth
Search for Tomorrow
Worldly Tutor
2CMC
Naturalize
Regrowth
Steely Resolve
Sylvan Library
3CMC
Alpha Status
Boar Umbra
Cultivate
Gilt-Leaf Ambush
Harrow
4CMC
Garruk Wildspeaker
Hunting Triad
Stonewood Invocation
5CMC
Overrun
Primal Command
XCMC
Strength of the Tajuru
Tribal Unity
Elves (37)
1CMC
Essence Warden
Fyndhorn Elves
Heritage Druid
Joraga Treespeaker
Llanowar Elves
Nettle Sentinel
2CMC
Bramblewood Paragon
Elvish Vanguard
Elvish Visionary
Gempalm Strider
Priest of Titania
Seeker of Skybreak
Twinblade Slasher
Viridian Zealot
Wellwisher
Wirewood Herald
Wolf-Skull Shaman
Wren's Run Vanquisher
3CMC
Civic Wayfinder
Elvish Archdruid
Elvish Branchbender
Elvish Champion
Elvish Harbinger
Farhaven Elf
Gilt-Leaf Ambush
Imperious Perfect
Joraga Warcaller
Rhys the Exiled
Thornscape Battlemage
Timberwatch Elf
Viridian Shaman
Winnower Patrol
4CMC
Ambassador Oak
Heedless One
Hunting Triad
Lys Alana Huntmaster
Wren's Run Packmaster
Warriors (17)
1CMC
Nettle Sentinel
2CMC
Beastbreaker of Bala Ged
Bramblewood Paragon
Elvish Vanguard
Twinblade Slasher
Viridian Zealot
Wren's Run Vanquisher
3CMC
Civic Wayfinder
Imperious Perfect
Joraga Warcaller
Winnower Patrol
4CMC
Ambassador Oak
Lys Alana Huntmaster
Sosuke, Son of Seshiro
Unstoppable Ash
Wren's Run Packmaster
6CMC
Roughshod Mentor
Wizards (1)
3CMC
Thornscape Battlemage
Elves (21)
1CMC
Heritage Druid
Joraga Treespeaker
2CMC
Elvish Vanguard
Gempalm Strider
Priest of Titania
Wellwisher
Wirewood Herald
Wolf-Skull Shaman
Wren's Run Vanquisher
3CMC
Elvish Archdruid
Elvish Branchbender
Elvish Champion
Elvish Harbinger
Imperious Perfect
Joraga Warcaller
Rhys the Exiled
Timberwatch Elf
Winnower Patrol
4CMC
Heedless One
Lys Alana Huntmaster
Wren's Run Packmaster
Warriors (4)
2CMC
Bramblewood Paragon
3CMC
Winnower Patrol
4CMC
Sosuke, Son of Seshiro
Unstoppable Ash
Green/White
Behemoth Sledge
Elvish Hexhunter
Safehold Elite
White/Blue
Augury Adept
Sygg, River Guide
Thistledown Duo
Blue/Black
Inkfathom Infiltrator
Lich Lord of Unx
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Black/Red
Dralnu's Crusade
Rakdos Guildmage
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Red/Green
Boggart Ram-Gang
Radha, Heir to Keld
Wort, the Raidmother
Green/Blue
Cold-Eyed Selkie
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Snakeform
Blue/Red
Call the Skybreaker
Electrolyze
Razorfin Hunter
Red/White
Goblin Legionnaire
Hearthfire Hobgoblin
Rise of the Hobgoblins
White/Black
Mortify
Putrid Warrior
Unmake
Black/Green
Llanowar Dead
Putrefy
Putrid Leech
Soldiers
Goblin Legionnaire
Hearthfire Hobgoblin
Putrid Warrior
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Thistledown Duo
Merfolk
Cold-Eyed Selkie
Inkfathom Infiltrator
Razorfin Hunter
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Sygg, River Guide
Zombies
Lich Lord of Unx
Llanowar Dead
Putrid Leech
Putrid Warrior
Rakdos Guildmage
Goblins
Boggart Ram-Gang
Goblin Legionnaire
Hearthfire Hobgoblin
Rakdos Guildmage
Razorfin Hunter
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Wort, the Raidmother
Elves
Elvish Hexhunter
Llanowar Dead
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Radha, Heir to Keld
Safehold Elite
Wizards
Augury Adept
Lich Lord of Unx
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Sygg, River Guide
Thistledown Duo
Warriors
Boggart Ram-Gang
Radha, Heir to Keld
Wort, the Raidmother
Merfolk
Sygg, River Guide
Zombies
Dralnu's Crusade
Lich Lord of Unx
Goblins
Dralnu's Crusade
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Creatures
Brass Herald
Duplicant
Pilgrim's Eye
Tribal Golem
Equipment
Kitesail
Lightning Greaves
Loxodon Warhammer
Obsidian Battle-Axe
Runed Stalactite
Sigil of Distinction
Sword of Light and Shadow
Trusty Machete
Umezawa's Jitte
Veteran's Armaments
Mana
Coalition Relic
Expedition Map
Prophetic Prism
Sol Ring
Utility
Cryptic Gateway
Door of Destinies
Icy Manipulator
Riptide Replicator
Scroll Rack
Sensei's Divining Top
Volrath's Laboratory
Soldiers (1)
Veteran's Armaments
Warriors (1)
Obsidian Battle-Axe
Karoos
Azorious Chancery
Boros Garrison
Dimir Aqueduct
Golgari Rot Farm
Gruul Turf
Izzet Boilerworks
Orzhov Basilica
Rakdos Carnarium
Selesnya Sanctuary
Simic Growth Chamber
Vivids
Vivid Crag
Vivid Grove
Vivid Meadow
Vivid Marsh
Vivid Creek
M10 Lands
Dragonskull Summit
Sunpetal Grove
Drowned Catacomb
Glacial Fortress
Rootbound Crag
Filters
Cascade Bluffs
Fetid Heath
Fire-Lit Thicket
Flooded Grove
Graven Cairns
Mystic gate
Rugged Prairie
Sunken Ruins
Twilight Mire
Wooded Bastion
Shards Lands
Arcane Sanctum
Savage Lands
Seaside Citadel
Jungle Shrine
Crumbling Necropolis
Specialty Lands
Mutavault
Evolving Wilds
Reflecting Pool
Terramorphic Expanse
Rupture Spire
1CMC
Elite Vanguard
Goldmeadow Harrier
Infantry Veteran
2CMC
Ballyrush Banneret
Catapult Squad
Cenn's Tactician
Coralhelm Commander
Goblin Legionnaire
Kazandu Blademaster
Kor Skyfisher
Putrid Warrior
Raise the Alarm
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Sejiri Merfolk
Veteran Armorsmith
Veteran's Armaments
3CMC
Ballynock Cohort
Burrenton Bombardier
Field Marshal
Hearthfire Hobgoblin
Kithkin Zephyrnaut
Merrow Reejerey
Mobilization
Preeminent Captain
Thistledown Duo
Veteran Swordsmith
Wake Thrasher
Whip Sergeant
4CMC
Aven Cloudchaser
Ballynock Trapper
Benalish Commander
Cenn's Enlistment
Daru Warchief
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Rhox Pikemaster
Veteran of the Depths
5CMC
Catapult Master
Conqueror's Pledge
6CMC
Captain of the Watch
Gempalm Avenger
Grassland Crusader
Nomads' Assembly
7CMC
Martial Coup
2CMC
Ballyrush Banneret
Catapult Squad
Cenn's Tactician
Veteran Armorsmith
Veteran's Armaments
3CMC
Field Marshal
Kithkin Zephyrnaut
Mobilization
Preeminent Captain
Veteran Swordsmith
4CMC
Benalish Commander
Daru Warchief
Rhox Pikemaster
5CMC
Catapult Master
Knight-Captain of Eos
6CMC
Captain of the Watch
Gempalm Avenger
Grassland Crusader
1CMC
Acquitect's Will
Enclave Cryptologist
Skywatcher Adept
2CMC
Coralhelm Commander
Inkfathom Infiltrator
Judge of Currents
Lord of Atlantis
Merfolk Looter
Merrow Commerce
Razorfin Hunter
Sejiri Merfolk
Silvergill Adept
Silvergill Douser
Stonybrook Angler
Stonybrook Banneret
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Sygg, River Guide
3CMC
Cold-Eyed Selkie
Harpoon Sniper
Merfolk Sovereign
Merrow Reejerey
Sage of Fables
Sigil Tracer
Stonybrook Schoolmaster
Streambed Aquitects
Thada Adel, Acquisitor
Wake Thrasher
4CMC
Fallowsage
Merfolk Skyscout
Merrow Harbinger
Summon the School
Surgespanner
Veteran of the Depths
5CMC
Sea Gate Loremaster
Waterspout Weavers
Wellgabber Apothecary
7CMC
Benthicore
1CMC
Acquitect's Will
2CMC
Coralhelm Commander
Judge of Currents
Lord of Atlantis
Merrow Commerce
Silvergill Adept
Silvergill Douser
Stonybrook Banneret
Sygg, River Guide
3CMC
Harpoon Sniper
Merfolk Sovereign
Merrow Reejerey
Streambed Aquitects
4CMC
Merrow Harbinger
Summon the School
5CMC
Waterspout Weavers
Wellgabber Apothecary
7CMC
Benthicore
1CMC
Carnophage
Festering Goblin
Quest for the Gravelord
2CMC
Boneknitter
Llanowar Dead
Putrid Leech
Putrid Warrior
Rakdos Guildmage
Shepherd of Rot
Slavering Nulls
Stromgald Crusader
Viscera Dragger
Withered Wretch
3CMC
Cemetery Reaper
Death Baron
Fleshbag Marauder
Lich Lord of Unx
Lord of the Undead
Phyrexian Ghoul
Rotlung Reanimator
Undead Gladiator
Zombie Master
Zombie Trailblazer
4CMC
Fatestitcher
Gravebane Zombie
Gravedigger
Soulless One
Undead Warchief
Vengeful Dead
5CMC
Corpse Harvester
Noxious Ghoul
Phyrexian Delver
Rise from the Grave
6CMC
Gravespawn Sovereign
Grixis Slavedriver
2CMC
Boneknitter
Shepherd of Rot
3CMC
Cemetery Reaper
Death Baron
Dralnu's Crusade
Lich Lord of Unx
Lord of the Undead
Zombie Master
Zombie Trailblazer
4CMC
Deathmark Prelate
Gravebane Zombie
Soulless One
Undead Warchief
Vengeful Dead
5CMC
Call to the Grave
Clutch of Undeath
Corpse Harvester
Cruel Revival
Noxious Ghoul
6CMC
Gravespawn Sovereign
1CMC
Festering Goblin
Goblin Guide
Mogg Fanatic
Tarfire
2CMC
Auntie's Snitch
Bloodmark Mentor
Frogtosser Banneret
Goblin Bushwhacker
Goblin Chieftain
Goblin Legionnaire
Goblin Warchief
Mogg Flunkies
Mogg War Marshal
Mudbrawler Cohort
Rakdos Guildmage
Razorfin Hunter
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Slavering Nulls
Spikeshot Goblin
Squeaking Pie Sneak
Tin Street Hooligan
Warren Instigator
3CMC
Boggart Harbinger
Boggart Ram-Gang
Gempalm Incinerator
Goblin Artillery
Goblin Assault
Goblin King
Goblin Matron
Goblin Ruinblaster
Hearthfire Hobgoblin
Mad Auntie
Torch Slinger
Tuktuk the Explorer
4CMC
Boggart Mob
Caterwauling Boggart
Fodder Launch
Goblin Razerunners
Lightning Crafter
Reckless one
Tuktuk Scrapper
Wort, Boggart Auntie
5CMC
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Siege-Gang Commander
Warren Pilferers
6CMC
Wort, the Raidmother
2CMC
Auntie's Snitch
Frogtosser Banneret
Squeaking Pie Sneak
Warren Instigator
3CMC
Boggart Harbinger
Dralnu's Crusade
Gempalm Incinerator
Goblin Assault
Goblin Chieftain
Goblin King
Goblin Matron
Goblin Warchief
Mad Auntie
4CMC
Boggart Mob
Caterwauling Boggart
Fodder Launch
Lightning Crafter
Reckless one
Stenchskipper
Wort, Boggart Auntie
5CMC
Siege-Gang Commander
Warren Pilferers
1CMC
Essence Warden
Elvish Hexhunter
Fyndhorn Elves
Heritage Druid
Joraga Treespeaker
Llanowar Elves
Nettle Sentinel
2CMC
Bramblewood Paragon
Elvish Vanguard
Elvish Visionary
Gempalm Strider
Llanowar Dead
Priest of Titania
Radha, Heir to Keld
Safehold Elite
Seeker of Skybreak
Twinblade Slasher
Viridian Zealot
Wellwisher
Wirewood Herald
Wolf-Skull Shaman
Wren's Run Vanquisher
3CMC
Civic Wayfinder
Elvish Archdruid
Elvish Branchbender
Elvish Champion
Elvish Harbinger
Farhaven Elf
Gilt-Leaf Ambush
Imperious Perfect
Joraga Warcaller
Rhys the Exiled
Thornscape Battlemage
Timberwatch Elf
Viridian Shaman
Winnower Patrol
4CMC
Ambassador Oak
Heedless One
Hunting Triad
Lys Alana Huntmaster
Wren's Run Packmaster
5CMC
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
1CMC
Heritage Druid
Joraga Treespeaker
2CMC
Elvish Vanguard
Gempalm Strider
Priest of Titania
Wellwisher
Wirewood Herald
Wolf-Skull Shaman
Wren's Run Vanquisher
3CMC
Elvish Archdruid
Elvish Branchbender
Elvish Champion
Elvish Harbinger
Imperious Perfect
Joraga Warcaller
Rhys the Exiled
Timberwatch Elf
Winnower Patrol
4CMC
Heedless One
Lys Alana Huntmaster
Wren's Run Packmaster
6CMC
Grassland Crusader
1CMC
Enclave Cryptologist
Imagecrafter
Skywatcher Adept
2CMC
Blinding Mage
Information Dealer
Judge of Currents
Silvergill Douser
Stonybrook Angler
Stonybrook Banneret
3CMC
AEther Adept
Augury Adept
Death Baron
Gempalm Sorcerer
Ghosthelm Courier
Lich Lord of Unx
Mangara of Corondor
Sage's Dousing
Sage of Fables
Sigil Tracer
Stonybrook Schoolmaster
Sygg, River Guide
Thornscape Battlemage
4CMC
Fallowsage
Fatestitcher
Galepowder Mage
Inspired Sprite
Merrow Harbinger
Riptide Director
Summon the School
Surgespanner
Thistledown Duo
5CMC
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Corpse Harvester
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Sea Gate Loremaster
Wandering Graybeard
Waterspout Weavers
6CMC
Arcanis the Omnipotent
7CMC
Benthicore
2CMC
Information Dealer
Stonybrook Banneret
3CMC
Gempalm Sorcerer
Ghosthelm Courier
Sage's Dousing
Sage of Fables
Sigil Tracer
4CMC
Inspired Sprite
Riptide Director
5CMC
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Wandering Graybeard
Waterspout Weavers
1CMC
Nettle Sentinel
2CMC
Beastbreaker of Bala Ged
Bloodmark Mentor
Bramblewood Paragon
Brighthearth Banneret
Elvish Vanguard
Goblin Bushwhacker
Mogg War Marshal
Mudbrawler Cohort
Radha, Heir to Keld
Twinblade Slasher
Viridian Zealot
Viscera Dragger
Wren's Run Vanquisher
3CMC
Boggart Ram-Gang
Civic Wayfinder
Fleshbag Marauder
Goblin Artillery
Goblin Warchief
Imperious Perfect
Joraga Warcaller
Manic Vandal
Obsidian Battle-Axe
Winnower Patrol
4CMC
Ambassador Oak
Boggart Mob
Lys Alana Huntmaster
Goblin Razerunners
Sosuke, Son of Seshiro
Unstoppable Ash
Wren's Run Packmaster
Vengeful Firebrand
5CMC
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
6CMC
Roughshod Mentor
Wort, the Raidmother
7CMC
Boldwyr Intimidator
2CMC
Bramblewood Paragon
Brighthearth Banneret
3CMC
Obsidian Battle-Axe
Winnower Patrol
4CMC
Sosuke, Son of Seshiro
Unstoppable Ash
Vengeful Firebrand
5CMC
Lovisa Coldeyes
7CMC
Boldwyr Intimidator
I'd love to get some impressions from people who've done cubes before, even if they haven't done Tribal cubes. I haven't put away my real cube, but my group has been playing this one a little more often lately. It's a ton of fun to play with, and it creates slightly more chill games than the real Cube does, which can be good for when you need a break.
Please let me know what you think!
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
Does this pigeonhole the drafters into one tribe in particular, or are cross-culture decks still competitive? Can you build generic aggro/control and have it be good, or do you need to be playing a tribe to have a chance?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
lol this probably wasn't a great way to begin your thread.
the cube looks cool but i have no experience and therefore no way to evaluate it, really. weird to see blue with more creatures than any color except green.
i don't really like this, especially since playable changelings are actually not that numerous. if they are the problem you can leave them out, or only include lords that give bonuses that are less damaging when they affect your opponent's creatures or something. i'd try and make it work without house rules, but maybe that's just me.
I use the same tribes as you minus the obvious non-working tribe warriors. How many warrior lords are there compared to the other tribes? You can't really draft warriors succesfully as a main strategy, when you compare it to Elfs for instance.
And yes - tribal cube does work. I've had mine for about 2.5 years now, so it's not like it's something new though...
Like quitequieter I don't like your houserules at all, because it really just makes the games less interesting...
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
Heh. It took . . . hours and hours to get all the data cross referenced correctly to build the cube in the first place, and probably another 3 or more to put it into a post for the forum so that someone could actually look at it and see what was going on.
So far, you're definitely pushed into a tribe or pair of tribes. There are a lot of tribal combinations that work really well (Merfolk Wizards, Zombie Goblins, Elf Warriors), and I also see 2 color combinations where one color has the majority of the creatures and the other color is support (i.e., R/W Soldiers with 2 or 3 red creatures and a bunch of burn).
In order to make the tribes good enough to play, the cube is forced into heavily supporting them, which means there simply aren't a lot of cards that are great outside of the tribes for aggro or control. I don't have any particular interest in making nontribal aggro playable, but in future revisions I'd definitely like to have some sort of control deck be more viable. That probably means cutting some blue creatures to fit more counters/draw in, and I haven't figured out how that will work yet.
You're right, it's incredibly rude. That said, I wanted to draw attention to the fact that my tribal cube was very different from the 2 or 3 other ones I've seen, which all seem to run every tribal lord ever made, even if there isn't enough support for it. It makes the cubes unplayable in sealed, which accounts for about half of the playtime my cubes get. This is a much more focused cube, and I wanted people who had looked at other Tribal Cubes and dismissed them to really give this one a good look.
I also noticed this. Blue is definitely lacking in some card draw and countering, but Merfolk and Wizards are already on the lower end of quantity of supported tribes (37 and 39 creatures respectively), so cutting more to fit in additional stuff could be hard. My continued playtesting has that in mind though, as it's definitely weird.
I understand your reluctance to use house rules, but let me make a few counterpoints
- All of the changelings are much more playable in this format than anywhere else. With so many cards that care how many X creatures you have in play, having a creature that counts as a Goblin AND a Zombie, or a Merfolk AND a Soldier can be incredibly useful just by itself.
- I play sealed at least as much as I draft with this cube, so the Changelings go a long way in helping you round out your deck well.
- I'd LOVE to limit the lords I include, but I was shocked to find out just how few tribal lords there are at all in Magic. It seems like there should be tons, but there just aren't. Zombies, Elves, Merfolk, and Goblins have 4, Soldiers have 4 and two halves, Warriors have 2. Kithkin have 1, Clerics have 1 or 2, Birds have 1 or 2, Elementals have 1. It's fairly weak, honestly. In order to support sealed play and draft without the full pool (I don't always have 8 drafters), I've gotta keep things built so that the tribes are all as viable as possible without getting a few key cards.
- It's not just the changelings that are the problem. I've gone out of my way to include creatures with two relevant creature types. I don't want to take my W/U Merfolk deck up against my opponents R/U Goblin Deck and end up randomly turning his Razorfin Hunter into a 2/2 or 3/3. That may be within the rules, but it's just not fun.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
No, you're right, you can't draft Warriors by themselves. However, I had a wicked powerful Elf Warrior deck the other day that ran Lovisa Coldeyes, Unstoppable Ash, and Beastbreaker of Bala Ged as non-elf creatures.
I also got hit 2 weeks ago by a Goblin Warrior deck that also had Lovisa paired with Boggart Ram-Gang and Bloodmark Mentor.
The reason Warriors and Wizards have been included at all is that I'm trying to support tribal combinations, since I don't expect everyone to always be able to put together a deck thats all 1 tribe. I had a pretty cool Zombie Wizard deck last week that combined Lich Lord of Unx and Azami, Lady of Scrolls to draw tons of cards. Those combinations are what make the cube interesting to me, at least.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
that seems like a pretty normal and interesting interaction of a tribal cube to me. i would just leave it that way and not worry about it. because you build your deck to take the best advantage of the lords you run, you should always be ahead of your opponent. it doesn't warrant drastic house rules, in my opinion. but your cube, your rules.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
This is exactly what I did wrong with the first version of my tribal cube. Since I cut both the Scarecrows in the artifact section and Slivers in all colors, the cube runs much better. It only contains 6 and a half tribes now - similar to yours. Interestingly, only three tribes are the same (Merfolk, Goblins and Elves). The other tribes I run are Kithkin, Vampires and Elementals - the last one with the most members, but spread across all five colors. Lastly, I run a few Allies as a mini tribe.
Regarding your house rule: Like the others, I'm not a fan of that either. To avoid those annoying situations where you accidentally help your opponent, I only run lords that exclusively pump your own creatures.
Lastly, I really like the way how you present your cube. This looks really like a lot of thought and a lot of work went into it.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Vamps I get, but I just didn't find enough support to run Elementals and Kithkin. There just weren't enough cards that got better with lots of Elementals or Kithkin in play to make it worth it to me. I ran both in the first draft, then cut Kithkin for Clerics, then cut the second white tribe altogether and extended Merfolk and Wizards to make up for the loss.
Thanks a lot I spent several hours working on it.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
lol scarecrows are basically the worst tribe ever. most of them are overcosted and they only have one lord. running scarecrows in a tribal cube would definitely mess up the way it played.
that's how they're written. as a cube designer, i'm not interested in making my own cards. if a card doesn't work the way i want it, i leave it out of the cube. if you start making house rules, you might as well just make a custom cube with all fake cards. not everyone feels this way but i think a lot of people do and it accounts for the response you're getting.
and i honestly don't think playing the cards as written would ruin the cube for me. i think it would actually be more interesting.
So how do you treat Oracle text? That's an update to accomodate changes to the way rules and situations are handled. Do you still play cards with their original wording if they've been updated by Wizards?
I assume the answer to that is no, at which point I ask why it's more ok for Wizards to change the way they want to do something than me.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
1. I'm probably in the minority but I don't play with oracle text updated. I play with whatever it says on the card. Its easier than trying to remember the wording or having to look up what the official ruling on a card is. I don't go out of my way to find obscure text that breaks cards but I like how I can sacrifice my Dauthi Horror to Ravenous Baloth and gain four life.
2. The reason its more ok for Wizards to update the cards is because of that little tradmark you see at the bottom of the cards. Wizards owns them and they can do whatever they want with them. You can do the same thing but we won't take you as seriously unless its your name next to the copyright at the bottom of the cards.
Draft my cube!
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i'll get this out of the way early: i'm not telling you what to do. do whatever you want, dude. i'm just saying it's not what i would do. besides that, my answer:
1. the oracle wordings are usually either identical or as close as possible to the original intent of the card. they have reversed basically all power level errata, and tribal errata is often obvious and improves the card. the game was sometimes clunky and ridiculous back in the day, and i'm fine with them cleaning it up, especially considering...
2. they make the cards. they make the game. so yes, they are more qualified than i when it comes to changing how a card works.
My point, otherwise, is that I personally feel the printing of Goblin Chieftain, Elvish Archdruid, and Captain of the Watch says a lot about how Wizards wants tribal lords to work. If they were to errata the original text on cards like Goblin King, Elvish Champion, and Field Marshal, there would probably be a bit of an uproar from some legacy/vintage players, so they've left things the way they are. However, I'm taking my cue from the way they currently design cards and playing cards the way they are now choosing to print them.
Yes, Wizards is certainly more qualified than me to make changes to cards, but I think they've made their intent clear when it comes to the functioning of Tribal Lords, and I'm gonna go with their intent.
All that said, it'd completely make my day if they did another Tribal block sometime soon that would give me the tools I need to do a Tribal cube without this nonsense.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
it's obvious from the way they've printed new cards that they never intended balance, counterspell, brainstorm, tarmogoyf, sol ring or even stone rain to be as good as they are, but i have no interest in redesigning those cards to reflect their intention. i just want to play the cards they make for me. i'll leave the designing to the designers.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
It's hard to do the latter when the former exists, as a rule.
And also, there's so very few Tribal Cube players here that most of us simply... don't know what to say.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
If I have time I'll go over your cube and comment. But basicly you could just look at my cube that have the same tribes as you, plus some support tribes. And if your worried my cube have also been "Proven to work" and is quite fun to play with (not as fun as a normal cube imo). I primarily use mine to introduce new players to cubing because it's a little easier to draft a tribal cube than a normal cube. Basicly most new guys just choose a tribe and stick to it...
Concerning the house rule, do whatever you want. I just feel that it's so few cards that it hardly matters. Secondly it makes changelings a bit better, which i don't mind. Thirdly it makes blue cards that mingle with creature types a bit better, and finally it just makes the boardpositions more complex and more interesting imo. Tribal cube is all about difficult boardpositions imo.
What about borderline lords like Eladamri, Lord of Leaves? Do you also change his rules? That's also a great example of another thing I don't like. You actually remove the bad thing some of the lords gives. In this case Forestwalk/Shroud to your opponents creatures.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
You have chosen very similar tribes to the ones I play, and further more you have almost the same card selection in the creature section. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe it's not. Anyway your cube aren't as original as you might think, because 80% of your cardchoices are cards I also have in my tribal cube.
I think your cardchoices mostly are ok, and the only big error I can spot is that your curve is a bit on the heavy side in some of the colors.
Here's a quick review of white:
CMC1:
OUT:
Infantry Veteran
IN:
Cenn's Tactician
Goldmeadow Stalwart
CMC2:
IN:
Auriok Bladewarden
Master Decoy
Veteran Armorer
CMC3:
I think you have to many cards here, compared to the CMC2 section.
Harpoon Sniper: How have this card been for you? I recenltly removed it because it didn't perform. Too often the Merfolk player wouldn't play white and this card would end up in a sideboard.
Mirror Entity: I have chosen not to include this card in my cube because of power reasons. It's just too good for tribal cube unfortunatly. If the opponent doesn't kill it immediatly it will win the game alone.
IN:
Kinsbaile Borderguard (this card is absolutely insane)
Descendant of Kiyomaro
CMC4:
OUT:
Aven Cloudchaser
IN:
Enlistment Officer - Don't understand why you don't play this???
Loxodon Gatekeeper
CMC5:
OUT:
Wellgabber Apothecary - this is not good enough to play, let alone splash.
IN:
Phantom Flock
Stormfront Riders
CMC6:
OUT:
Gempalm Avenger - just ended up in sideboards all the time in my playgroup.
IN:
Aven Brigadier - You should play all lords in this format!
NON-CREATURES:
In your noncreature section I think you play way to powerful spells. The problem here is that when your players figure this out the tribal element will fall drastically. With removal this good, you will end up with a format consisting of very bad creatures. The removal will be aimed at the lords, and then you are just stuck with a couple of sucky elfs (or something similar). I've tried this approach in the past, and I've also written an article about the subject a couple of years back (in danish though).
In a tribal cube you really want to enforce the tribal element, and therefor you need to play mediocre/bad removal, so players will pick the tribal lords over the removal. Thereby the tribal element will be in focus, instead of the format beeing dominated by removal. Atleast that was that happened in my cube, where new non-tribal archetypes was the most dominant because of this problem.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
Short version:
1) Does mass removal belong in a tribal cube? How powerful should it be?
2) How much spot removal should one use?
Btw, to reduce the potency of the removal in my tribal cube and to increase tribal effects, I will most likely replace Terror with Feast of Blood.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
- I play sealed way more than draft, so there no opportunity to "pick high" all of the good removal. You get the removal you get.
- The exact problems you mention are the reason that the cube is so incredibly densely focused on the 7 tribes, and the reason I'm running every lord possible, even at the expense of some house rules. It's the reason I've tried to make sure that in addition to the 3 or 4 "lords" each tribe has, that there are a ton of OTHER good creatures that also enhance tribal interactions. Otherwise you're basically just playing a huge game of crappy slivers and hoping to draw your Muscles and Sinews while playing out your Metallics and Vensers. Thats no fun.
I played a R/B Goblin deck last week with a ton of removal. Lots of burn and destroy effects. I lost to a W/r soldier deck. I killed the Field Marshal and the Captain of the Watch, and ended up losing to Cenn's Tactician. No, it's not a tribal lord, but it makes soldiers better. Pretty sure the killing blow was dealt by a 5/6 Kor Skyfisher.
Mass removal hasn't been a problem either. IMO, the reason a deck like Elves has constructed problems against Day of Judgment is because in constructed, the Day of Judgment player is going to follow that up with Baneslayer Angel and ride to victory. In this cube, the best thing the DoJ player can follow it up with is . . . what, Galepowder Mage? Wrath effects are still very powerful, because the person who controls them can make sure they're in a good position to recover, but I haven't felt they've been a threat to the format at all.
Apparently I offended some people with my disparaging remarks about other tribal cubes, and I apologize for that. These last two questions, however, have really brought to light where I was coming from. I have no interest in playing a cube that thinks Terror or Day of Judgment is too good. I don't want to play a cube where you can safely drop your Merfolk Sovereign and know you've got an unblockable creature til the end of the game. I want to have a very strong, high-powered cube that simply runs tribal creatures instead of other strong ones.
Another example is the fact that one of you mentioned an inability to support Mirror Entity. You've created a cycle. You can't run powerful spells because you don't want the Lords to die, but now you can't run powerful creatures because the removal isn't strong enough. Yes, Mirror Entity is great, but not so great that he can't be answered in a healthy format.
A good deck in my cube has at least 6 cards in your main tribe from the Tribal Interactions category of my list. They're not all lords, but they all have some pretty good effects. Some of the champion creatures can really own the game if not dealt with, and some of the other effects are powerful as well (see my comment about losing to Cenn's Tactician).
As to a few specific suggestions
Kinsbaile Borderguard - when I tried to support Kithkin he was in. When I pulled them he came out. Again, if you can't get 5 or 6 strong tribal support cards, the tribe isn't worth running, and there are only about 6 total strong tribal kithkin cards in existence, which means nobody is ever gonna get 'em all.
Feast of Blood - I don't run Vamps . . . this would never get cast. Zombies just have better support than vamps so far. Maybe in a year or two, the way things are going, but right now Zombies have so many more good cards to choose from.
Enlistment Officer - on my list of cards to slot in, didn't have one around
Aven Brigadier - Was surprised to see you mention this because I thought he was in. Not entirely sure how that happened. I'll make sure he gets back in
Gempalm Avenger - really? It can be quite a blowout if you don't already have Rhox Pikemaster out. I mean, you only ever cycle it, but thats ok. 3 mana for a good combat trick that replaces itself?
Harpoon Sniper - So far I've only played him once but he was pretty strong. It was a high concentration deck (I think with Changelings I had 16 merfolk) so I was able to kill almost anything. I tend to see Merfolk splashing white more than any other color.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
I just say that when I had all the good removal in my cube, and when I had Mirror entity, too many "regular" cube decks emerged. When I play I'm generally a Spike/Johnny, and just do what I can to win.
That meant I very often ended up drafting a removal-heavy deck with some random good creatures, not caring as much about tribal interactions. Mirror Entity is for instance a very good creature, but has really has no interactions with other creatures. He just wins the turn after he entered the board, if you play him correctly.
I understand that you want to play powerful cards, but the "healthiest" tribal decks emerge from cutting down on removal and single card strategies. That was the case in my playgroup at least.
With your cube for instace, I could imagine black and red beeing really realy good colors. I would probably force one of these colors every time I played it (as I did with my own cube). Tribal drafting is very creature oriented, thus making removal much better. If you can get a 10 removal // 13 creatures deck, you'll almost certainly win every time, because you can remove your opponents key creatures, leaving him with the sucky ones.
If you want to play good removal you can just play less though... If it works for your playgroup it's ofcourse fine though. But try to keep what I said in mind next time you draft, and try to force the removal-deck if you can, just to see what happens.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
I just don't have a big enough playgroup for draft to be reliably fun. There's only 4 of us, which means after pack 1 everyone knows what tribe everyone else is in . . . and then its just awkward.
This may be one of the differences mass removal plays. It's usually pretty hard to create that situation in this deck, you don't reliably have 5 or 6 creatures just waiting to be turned into enormous dudes.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)