A Panharmonicon for all permanent types, including lands and enchantments! It comes on a creature with good stats and a splashable 4W cost. Blanking your opponent's various Mulldrifters also seems incredible, although occasionally there could be hiddendownsides to turning off your opponent's ETB triggers. Overall, I think Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is a slam dunk for cubes supporting an ETB/flicker archetype.
I've been waiting for a good panharmonicon-on-a-dork effect for ages. I'm super excited by this card, but I have my doubts about whether it's good enough.
I think it's worth noting that while this fails the Vindicate test, it also shuts down a lot of your opponent's removal. You can't hit this with Chupacabra, Shriekmaw or O-Ring effects.
Problem is it’s a 5 drop that requires other cards to do anything meaningful, and trades down in mana efficiency against almost all creature interaction.
The body is huge and the ability is powerful, so it’s not “bad”. But I don’t think it makes up for all the downsides.
It’s possible I’m underestimating the one sided torpor orb effect, but unlikely.
one nice interaction is with solitude, as you can cast it the turn you cast norn, but that’s a hard combo to assemble in a singleton format.
Keep in mind that failing the doom blade test is a lot more literal given that all the Chupacabras and Hostage Takers and Oblivion Ring variants get blanked. It really is instant/sorcery removal and planeswalkers.
I think this is going to lead to some incredible stories, which is always a tiebreaker for me when a card like this is on the fence.
Initially thought this is really bad due to the vulnerability to removal and lack of immediate impact, but I was really underappreciating how strong turning off your opponent's ETBs is as a form of protection. Based on a quick overview, in my cube only Swords to Plowshares, Unexpectedly Absent, Brazen Borrower, Lethal Scheme and Grist, the Hunger Tide can unconditionally get this off the board for good without trading down in mana, and two of these are white cards you could very well have in your own deck. Elesh also pairs well with the Solitude cycle for immediate impact.
It doesn't stabilise the board for you, but if it sticks, which it likely will, it will make it very easy for you to take over the game. I think it's a good card for cubes encouraging "battlecruiser"-style play.
This just feels like a worse Yorion, Sky Nomad, most good targets are 3-4 CMC, I think a curve of 3-4 C<C into Yorion is stronger than play this and hope to untap.
My recommendation is if you wanna support flicker, try Ao, the Dawn Sky. Fantastic baseline stats, great with Pod/ Recurring etc.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
How likely is it that the ability will matter? I think quite often… in my unpowered cube, Norn interacts positively with 105/540 cards. You don’t even have to draft them, because Norn helps regardless of whether it’s doubling up your card or stifling your opponent’s card. Breaking down the ETB trigger cards by color:
25 white
18 blue
12 black
15 red
29 green
14 multicolor
2 colorless
In general I think effects that double triggers are really fun to build around, in part because the other cards they ask you to draft are already great on their own. After many years of cubing Panharmonicon itself, Elesh Norn is the card that will finally replace it.
Firmly in the “maybe, if it seems fun to you” tier. The board impact is actually pretty obscene here but a W 5 with no immediate impact has to do *so much.* This is a baneslayer variant in effect. It’s got a cool hatebear component and can bury people in CA if you untap with the right stuff, but doesn’t have nearly as large an impact in racing situations.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Initially thought this is really bad due to the vulnerability to removal and lack of immediate impact, but I was really underappreciating how strong turning off your opponent's ETBs is as a form of protection. Based on a quick overview, in my cube only Swords to Plowshares, Unexpectedly Absent, Brazen Borrower, Lethal Scheme and Grist, the Hunger Tide can unconditionally get this off the board for good without trading down in mana, and two of these are white cards you could very well have in your own deck. Elesh also pairs well with the Solitude cycle for immediate impact.
It doesn't stabilise the board for you, but if it sticks, which it likely will, it will make it very easy for you to take over the game. I think it's a good card for cubes encouraging "battlecruiser"-style play.
I highly recommend Aboleth Spawn if you like this card. Its effect isn't as nearly as strong but it's also only a 3 drop. It's been working really well in my 360 testing and I might try to keep it over the long haul if possible..
I feel like people will be severely underrating this card because she sort of does not affect the board immediately as she enters the battlefield.
But you do have to take into account that the 4/7 vigilance body is quite good at 5 mana, it is the first splash-able praetor ever and it's effect is subtle but really powerful. You get a huge body, with torpor orb and panharmonicon attached to it. The investment of 5 mana is well worth it and the game will turn fast in your favor since cube is based mostly on ETB creatures and sometimes other permanents such as O-Ring effects and so on.
I believe it will be a staple in Cube, Commander and some constructed formats.
It is also the hyped card of the set and it delivers. We haven't seen such a combination of effects on one card and the only thing that is misleading most people is the 5 mana cost which feels quite steep but I believe it will still be a powerhouse. Also, keep in mind that it makes the games a lot more fun for the holder with the doubling effects, while nerfing almost all cube creatures to vanillas, therefore making it less fun for the opponents.
I think this is an absurd card. Extremely easy to get value out of, and the body is huge. I see no downsides (edit - yes, except for the occasional one as mentioned by the OP). Cannot wait to jam it in the cube.
Only one white pip helps this card a lot. The vindicate test issue doesn't bother me that much. This card can do some super cool stuff. There will always be more ETB power creep cards printed in future she can take advantage of too.
Firmly in the “maybe, if it seems fun to you” tier. The board impact is actually pretty obscene here but a W 5 with no immediate impact has to do *so much.* This is a baneslayer variant in effect. It’s got a cool hatebear component and can bury people in CA if you untap with the right stuff, but doesn’t have nearly as large an impact in racing situations.
this is the issue that makes it hard to evaluate. A W 5 that fails the vindicate test and requires other cards, has to do SOO much to be good.
Weighing two extremes against one another is a difficult exercise.
This card does a LOT, but does it do enough to overcome a barrier that literally ZERO 5CMC+ creatures in magic history can currently overcome in a high powered cube?
A few cubes run baneslayer angel and elder gargaroth but they are basically side board cards at this point.
I’ll prob test, but my bet is it’ll be a fun card that is just shy of good enough for my environment.
Dunno if she'll make it, but I think she looks solid. Dodges some removal and gives greater value to other cards you'd want to play in a deck with a 5 mana 4/7. Can still end a game reasonably well if both players are exhausted of resources and in topdeck mode. I'd prefer it over Baneslayer in my list, because that meager protection could actually be meaningful and doubling on evokes seems really fun.
A Panharmonicon for all permanent types, including lands and enchantments! It comes on a creature with good stats and a splashable 4W cost. Blanking your opponent's various Mulldrifters also seems incredible, although occasionally there could be hidden downsides to turning off your opponent's ETB triggers. Overall, I think Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is a slam dunk for cubes supporting an ETB/flicker archetype.
I think it's worth noting that while this fails the Vindicate test, it also shuts down a lot of your opponent's removal. You can't hit this with Chupacabra, Shriekmaw or O-Ring effects.
The body is huge and the ability is powerful, so it’s not “bad”. But I don’t think it makes up for all the downsides.
It’s possible I’m underestimating the one sided torpor orb effect, but unlikely.
one nice interaction is with solitude, as you can cast it the turn you cast norn, but that’s a hard combo to assemble in a singleton format.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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I think this is going to lead to some incredible stories, which is always a tiebreaker for me when a card like this is on the fence.
It doesn't stabilise the board for you, but if it sticks, which it likely will, it will make it very easy for you to take over the game. I think it's a good card for cubes encouraging "battlecruiser"-style play.
My recommendation is if you wanna support flicker, try Ao, the Dawn Sky. Fantastic baseline stats, great with Pod/ Recurring etc.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
25 white
18 blue
12 black
15 red
29 green
14 multicolor
2 colorless
In general I think effects that double triggers are really fun to build around, in part because the other cards they ask you to draft are already great on their own. After many years of cubing Panharmonicon itself, Elesh Norn is the card that will finally replace it.
Interested in Custom Card Creation.
My Cube:Cardinal Custom Cube
A custom version of a third modern masters: MM2019
(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
I highly recommend Aboleth Spawn if you like this card. Its effect isn't as nearly as strong but it's also only a 3 drop. It's been working really well in my 360 testing and I might try to keep it over the long haul if possible..
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
But you do have to take into account that the 4/7 vigilance body is quite good at 5 mana, it is the first splash-able praetor ever and it's effect is subtle but really powerful. You get a huge body, with torpor orb and panharmonicon attached to it. The investment of 5 mana is well worth it and the game will turn fast in your favor since cube is based mostly on ETB creatures and sometimes other permanents such as O-Ring effects and so on.
I believe it will be a staple in Cube, Commander and some constructed formats.
It is also the hyped card of the set and it delivers. We haven't seen such a combination of effects on one card and the only thing that is misleading most people is the 5 mana cost which feels quite steep but I believe it will still be a powerhouse. Also, keep in mind that it makes the games a lot more fun for the holder with the doubling effects, while nerfing almost all cube creatures to vanillas, therefore making it less fun for the opponents.
this is the issue that makes it hard to evaluate. A W 5 that fails the vindicate test and requires other cards, has to do SOO much to be good.
Weighing two extremes against one another is a difficult exercise.
This card does a LOT, but does it do enough to overcome a barrier that literally ZERO 5CMC+ creatures in magic history can currently overcome in a high powered cube?
A few cubes run baneslayer angel and elder gargaroth but they are basically side board cards at this point.
I’ll prob test, but my bet is it’ll be a fun card that is just shy of good enough for my environment.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
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This looks like a strong, fun and slow card. We will definitely test this one.
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