What are your guys' thoughts on green aggro, and how does it match up with the other aggro colors? The green in my cube is more involved in midrange and ramp, and that seems more green's natural inclination to me, but I know there are a fair number of cubes running the green aggro 1 drops like wild dogs and jungle lion. What are the other cards that enable green aggro and what are the pros and cons of green aggro over a midrange and ramp focus?
The Captive is really an aggro card. It's not very good in mid-range.
I've been tossing around the idea of either subbing out the green aggro (and only using green as a secondary color in aggressive decks) or bolstering it with more support. (Leaning towards the latter, green aggro was better for me at 450 when I ran all of the support for it I could than it is at 360 where I'm only running some of them.)
eidolon's right, it doesn't make much sense to only support it with a few aggro cards; it weakens the strategy overall. Run all of the best aggro cards you can, or cut them all. Same goes for black.
Short of Wild Dogs and Pouncing Jaguar, I run most of the green aggro guys because a lot of my regular players will draft X/g or G/x aggro if given the chance. After I settle the huge shakeup in U and R I'm dealing with at the moment, I'm going to try to slide those two into green, probably removing some artifact destruction because I've recently given a lot of that to R.
I think green is a great aggro color, although not as good as white or red. When a RG aggro deck comes together in my cube, it can be really tough to beat. The key is to support it fully. You need to run cards like Wild Dogs, Pouncing Jaguar, and Wolfbitten Captive. Berserk, Vines of Vastwood, and Rancor help a lot, and Plow Under is green's closest card to Armageddon.
The Captive is really an aggro card. It's not very good in mid-range.
I've been tossing around the idea of either subbing out the green aggro (and only using green as a secondary color in aggressive decks) or bolstering it with more support. (Leaning towards the latter, green aggro was better for me at 450 when I ran all of the support for it I could than it is at 360 where I'm only running some of them.)
eidolon's right, it doesn't make much sense to only support it with a few aggro cards; it weakens the strategy overall. Run all of the best aggro cards you can, or cut them all. Same goes for black.
A million times this. (I keep saying things like this when I'm quoting you)
You can't go partway in supporting aggro. Aggro decks are completely dependent on redundancy of effects in order to work. If you aren't willing to commit enough slots to it, you shouldn't support an archetype.
I'd argue that running only part of the list of green aggro cards is just going to be unsuccessful. You need a critical density of them for the decks to reasonably build a curve that can keep up with the quality of control in Cube -- if aggro isn't frequently curving out savagely, it is probably frequently losing.
If I end up bumping back up to 450 (contingent upon my playgroup growing and consistently getting 6-8 man drafts) I'll be bolstering aggro with all the support I want to add back in for it. Looking forward to giving green aggro more tools. As well as supporting ramp more too. And reanimation in black.
I have moved back out of green aggro recently as it just didn't seem to be coming together often enough. I've replaced the aggro guys with more ramp and that seems to have worked out well. I still need to decide on whether to cut Kird Ape and Loam Lion. I think I might just lose the Lion, as Red has enough going on for RG aggro to come together, relying on the large number of red 1-drops I run, then benefiting from green's superior 2-drops. It still doesn't feel quite like pure aggro, and is a little more midrange.
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I'm aware that green, just like the other colors, needs a critical mass of aggro cards to viable. I'm just trying to decide whether or not to run aggro in green at all, as mid range and ramp seem more capable and loaded with good options than aggro, IMO. I guess I was looking to see what the staunch defenders of green aggro thought, so that I might see some possibilities I hadn't noticed.
Green in aggro is more of a supporting role for us now. I lost too many tools on the way down to 360 to make the GG/x aggro decks we used to crank out. Now it seems that the decks are often R/G, WW/g or RW/g when they come together, with green almost always having 5 or fewer cards in the lists. It still keeps enough success in the archetype to get value from Nacatl/Ape/Lion (nowhere near the chopping block) and have Stormbind and Bloodbraid Elf get lots of action still. But I get the feeling I need to add in more support to get stompy back up to par, or forget the aggro-exclusive 1 and 2-drops in green and concede to green being a support color for aggro forever. I don't know which way I'm ultimately going to turn, but the half-assed aggro support in green can't last forever. Go big or go home, as they say.
Green aggro is pretty much dead in my cube. I do run Rivier Boa at 2, since he's good in a number of decks, not just quick, aggressive ones. My green is more focused on ramp and mid-range. I just cut Loam Lions because Green-White aggro wasn't really a cube deck, and I'm debating losing Kird Ape for the same reason.
I'm bringing it back. I loved green aggro in my old 450, and with the tools that I'm bringing back in, it'll do a lot better than it did the first go-around. I think the green aggro 1-drops are pretty good, and there's certainly enough good 2-3cc creatures to back them up in the color. I'm looking forward to going "all in" on green aggro again.
But what specific cards/density is required. I am bringing in again the Basking Rootwalla and the Twinblade Slasher. Are these cards auto inclusions for supporting stompy?
I know Vines of Vastwood might be another card.
Would you still run Mire Boa and River Boa in a cube that does not support green aggro?
definitely
good aggro green crits.
I have them in my 500 cube and i only would consider taking them out at 360.
I think at least one of the two wallas are needed in a 450 to support green aggro fully. I would run River Boa in a cube that does not support "hard" green aggro. I personally think that green's 2-drop creatures are the best in the cube (at least in my experience with 360). Every creature either beats very well or provides you with mana to beat harder, or both (the best). I think that including at least one boa is perfectly fine even if you don't try to play the 1-drop game.
I thought I would when it was first spoiled, but after testing it more, I'd say no. If I wasn't supporting green aggro, I'd cut the Geist. Vengevine loses a lot of its value too.
I'm curious to know what you'd be cutting out of the more commonly-played green ramp package to make aggro green a reality. It seems to me that Cube green really had two identities. Can it be both ramp into mid-range and fatties and agressive stompers?
I think Geist and Vengevine are both really good midrange cards as well. The haste helps to get the necessary pressure on the control decks, Geist is great with Green Sun's Zenith, Birthing Pod and Natural Order and casting two elves in one turn brings Vengevine back from the graveyard.
I'm curious to know what you'd be cutting out of the more commonly-played green ramp package to make aggro green a reality. It seems to me that Cube green really had two identities. Can it be both ramp into mid-range and fatties and agressive stompers?
I think Geist and Vengevine are both really good midrange cards as well.
I agree. Strangleroot Geist doesn't have to attack. He fits well in Jund-style attrition/incremental card advantage-y midrange decks. If you're into that sort of thing. It can either put on some early pressure or stay back to block and gain some CA. This is perfectly fine in a midrange deck.
Vengevine is similar. If you're in green midrange, you're probably trying to power out some beef early via mana elves. But when you draw them a bit later in the game, they can help bring the 'vine back. All good.
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Here are some of the cards I can list off the top of my head that we run:
I'm probably forgetting something. We run a lot of cards for that archetype.
I've been tossing around the idea of either subbing out the green aggro (and only using green as a secondary color in aggressive decks) or bolstering it with more support. (Leaning towards the latter, green aggro was better for me at 450 when I ran all of the support for it I could than it is at 360 where I'm only running some of them.)
eidolon's right, it doesn't make much sense to only support it with a few aggro cards; it weakens the strategy overall. Run all of the best aggro cards you can, or cut them all. Same goes for black.
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A million times this. (I keep saying things like this when I'm quoting you)
You can't go partway in supporting aggro. Aggro decks are completely dependent on redundancy of effects in order to work. If you aren't willing to commit enough slots to it, you shouldn't support an archetype.
I'd argue that running only part of the list of green aggro cards is just going to be unsuccessful. You need a critical density of them for the decks to reasonably build a curve that can keep up with the quality of control in Cube -- if aggro isn't frequently curving out savagely, it is probably frequently losing.
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I'd play River Boa regardless, but only Mire Boa if I'm supporting Stompy. Vines is a good option too.
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definitely
good aggro green crits.
I have them in my 500 cube and i only would consider taking them out at 360.
i agree with wtwlf
River Boa is really good, worth keeping in any case
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I run Twinblade Slasher, Rancor and Vines of Vastwood. (plus lots of two drops like the boa brothers, but I don't regard them as aggro only cards).
Jungle Lion and Strangleroot Geist.
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Ya, it can easily be both.
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I agree. Strangleroot Geist doesn't have to attack. He fits well in Jund-style attrition/incremental card advantage-y midrange decks. If you're into that sort of thing. It can either put on some early pressure or stay back to block and gain some CA. This is perfectly fine in a midrange deck.
Vengevine is similar. If you're in green midrange, you're probably trying to power out some beef early via mana elves. But when you draw them a bit later in the game, they can help bring the 'vine back. All good.
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