So I have a good friend named "James." He is dating a girl named "Kelly." I have become reluctant friends with Kelly through James.
This is what I know about their relationship:
-James and Kelly have been together for about 1.5 years now.
-James has a bright future. He is in his last year of med school. He will be going to residency next year (likely General Surgery). Kelly is still at least 2 years from graduating from undergrad (after already being in school for 4 years). She doesn't seem to take her education or future seriously. She has expressed things to James like, "I can't wait till you're a doctor so I can buy X."
-James seems to be taking care of all the things in his and Kelly's life. He pays about 3/4 of the bills - including rent. Not only does Kelly not contribute her fair share, she seems to not appreciate James' efforts.
-Kelly has a history of opiate use that has turned into heroin only recently. She has told me that she has been using for about 1 year. At her worst, she has been using Heroin about twice per week. She last used about 1 month ago. She has only told James about a few Opiate episodes, but she has him convinced that it's not a problem. She is currently dealing with the withdrawals from Heroin (she constantly calls me to talk about her depression / anxiety / sleep problems that are a result of the withdrawals). To make things worse, I'm not sure about her motivation to quit. She says she wants to go to NA, but she has been saying that for at least 3 months and hasn't gone yet. She also makes jokes about how she wishes she had Heroin - just never in front of James.
-I, as well as other friends, have told him that they don't belong together. James seems to agree, but he doesn't seem to be going about this the way we all thought he would. He says he has considered breaking up with Kelly, but he feels sorry for Kelly and doesn't know if he can find someone better (yes, he has some confidence issues).
-James confided in me that he has recently started "talking to a new girl" he knew from undergrad. He says he and new girl seem to have pretty good chemistry. She is also much more motivated about her future career than Kelly. Overall - if I were to look at it objectively - they seem like a much better fit. But James is obviously doing a not-too-nice thing.
So here are my questions.
1. I am being asked to keep secrets by both James and Kelly. What do I do?
2. Is "talking to a new girl" while in a relationship OK? James argues that it's like searching for a job while you still have employment. I think it's pretty scummy.
Tell James that Kelly is a nodder so he has a reason to ditch her. I've known several heroin and opiate addicts--some in my own household--and they destroy other people's lives as well as their own. There is nothing good that comes from an opiate or heroin addict. They turn into utterly worthless individuals that suck the life out of everyone they know.
It sounds like you have a bias against Kelly already. It also sounds like this situation might resolve itself. If you value either friendship, I would make slight nudges for James to be more involved with this new girl.
But to answer your questions; you have to figure out what you are comfortable living with. I have a friend that has a wife and kids and a girl on the side. Lying to him is just a way of bending the truth so that everyone is happy. Me, personally , I lie only in the most superficial manners. Everything else I strive to tell the complete truth.
There is nothing wrong with talking to someone when your currently with someone. That's the only way you know if you should value what you have or drop it and chase after something else. If your willing to chase, then you have your answer. The scummy part is when you cross that fine line. Talking is one thing but as soon as it becomes physical then you are cheating. As long as James breaks up with Kelly before he does anything is, in my book, ethically kosher
1. I am being asked to keep secrets by both James and Kelly. What do I do?
Have a good chat with both of them. Preferably separate. Tell Kelly to get her **** together if she wants to continue with James because James is walking another path completely. Tell James that if Kelly doesn't change, it would probably be better to be single.
2. Is "talking to a new girl" while in a relationship OK? James argues that it's like searching for a job while you still have employment. I think it's pretty scummy.
It's grey. There are arguments on both sides for this and they both have merits. Tell James to tread lightly
My daughter lost her mother to a hidden heroin addiction. Tell you friend before its too late. If she's using, its not twice a week or once a month, especially with drug history. She's using regularly. And with Heroin, the withdrawl alone can kill her (as it did my daughter's mother).
Thanks for all the comments, everyone. It really means a lot.
ThaDeceptikon - I'm very sorry for your loss.
I should elaborate a little more. I do have a bias against Kelly. I want her to get better, and I'm hopeful that she can become drug-free. James and our mutual friends in medicine all believe the same thing. Maybe it's because we're all mentally trained to believe in people.
Based on the patients with opiate / heroin problems that I've seen, Kelly doesn't seem to be in too deep - if that makes any sense. The fact that she has been able to keep her problems away from James suggests that she she is not in such a terrible shape that she cannot be saved.
James feels sorry for Kelly. I know that he's keeping her around because of that as well we because he just needs more confidence in himself. I'm sure plenty of ladies don't mind giving him a chance - just look to the new girl for evidence. Maybe it'll be best for him if I don't confront him about the scummy behavior of chatting up new girl while still in a relationship. If it works out, maybe he'll get enough confidence to break it off with Kelly.
Anyway, thanks again for the comments. I have never been put in this kind of situation (though I've been in a relationship where my bf didn't pull his own weight - I got rid of him pretty quickly).
Nothing good is going to come of this for your friend if you dont tell him what's going on. It could go VERY bad for him.....and in the long run, it could cost him his career
James needs to break up with Kelly immediately. Don't keep secrets from James. James is your actual friend here, not Kelly. Are you sure she is actually a drug user and not just joking with you? Does she only wear long pants/long sleeves even when it's warm? Does she have weird bruises on her arms? Has her appearance changed over time to look more 'haggard', maybe just with bags under the eyes that weren't there before?
Kelly is a drug addict and needs professional help. But it isn't James' responsibility to 'save her'. If you feel the need to help, call 2-1-1 and ask for help with drug abuse in your area.
And no, it's not okay for James to be 'talking to a new girl' while still with Kelly. He needs to break up with her.
James needs to break up with her because this can quickly become a major problem for his career. If he's found with drugs in his home, his medical career is effectively over before it's begun.
James needs to break up with Kelly immediately. Heroin addiction doesn't really have a "not too deep" mode. She needs to get into 12 step therapy / rehab to get off the heroin completely or it will kill her. This part, however, is not yours or James' responsibility, though if you can either point her in the direction of getting some help or inform her loved ones / family members that she needs it, it could save her life. Also, while going through addiction rehab, Kelly needs to not be in a relationship, with James or anyone else. This is a serious disease, and needs to be treated that way.
As a sidenote, you should probably be distancing yourself from Kelly as well until she is able to kick the addiction. If you want to continue spending time with her, then even though this may sound extreme, you should be in a 12 step program as well. As long as your around someone going through a serious addiction and you don't know how to properly deal with it, you are causing more damage than helping. Keep in mind that the information she is giving you in regards to her usage is just as much of a lie / half truth as she is telling to James.
After re-reading my post, I can see how someone would assume this. The answer is no. I am not the new girl.
Shadowlink ..
Thanks for the advice. New update: James is going to see new girl this weekend. I'm planning to distance myself from both James and Kelly for the time being while James figures out what to do with this.
I actually discussed Heroin (without mentioning anything from this thread) with a Psychiatry resident friend. She confirmed a lot of what you said. She told me that a lot of addicts will lie about their use and willingness to change. She says it's pretty much a lose-lose situation to date one of them.
Thanks for the advice. New update: James is going to see new girl this weekend. I'm planning to distance myself from both James and Kelly for the time being while James figures out what to do with this.
That sounds all well and good. I can't say it's imprudent to give those guys space.
First, among these people, James matters the most. If he's two-timing someone, it's not great, but you have indicated that he has anxiety/confidence/esteem issues and it's what he needs to do. (This I'm extrapolating from the approach Psych consultants took when dealing with those who engage in self-harm; let them do that, as it's more preferable to, say, death by suicide, then slowly move to something less severe, like marker pens.)
Kelly's a mess and, until she sorts out herself and there's a good reason for you guys to even be friends, cut the cord. The only safe amount of heroin for a person is no heroin, and she should seriously consider and commence a programme to kick her habit. She could need you guys to get clean but it's not a good idea; in fact, it's often counter-productive to simply recovery. Afterwards and after you know how to deal with someone (as an addict and after recovery, as there is a sizeable risk for relapse), I don't think it's too good an idea to be a buddy.
Whoever the new girl is, well, all the best to her and James. It might work, it mightn't work. She sounds nice.
I actually discussed Heroin (without mentioning anything from this thread) with a Psychiatry resident friend. She confirmed a lot of what you said. She told me that a lot of addicts will lie about their use and willingness to change. She says it's pretty much a lose-lose situation to date one of them.
Yeah. Definitely.
Edit: Shadowlink mentioned 12-step programmes. In addition to that, few of them end; after-care programme exist for the former addict and friends/family/etc. Aye, it's a tough life.
You're absolutely right about the dangers of Heroin. I already know about Kelly's relapses. We've suggested NA, other programs, therapy, etc.. to her in the past. But she always counters by saying she doesn't have money. Yet she seems to have money for drugs ... (another topic the Psychiatry friend and I discussed about. She called it the drug user's "cash for stash" ... can't be bothered to use it for things like bills).
Money shouldn't be an issue for AA / NA or other programs like that, also there should be easily accessible and high quality counseling and drug abuse therapy available through the school, all she has to do is ask for it. Most colleges either have clinics and counselors available on site, or have access to low cost / no cost alternatives for students and will jump at a chance to help someone in a situation like this.
I think being a drugs-addict is probably the worst trait than a SO can have. I know someone who got married with someone that "stopped" and it ended in a big drama divorce. I think someone addicted to drugs make as bad a partner as a child molester or wife-beater.
James is your friend. Your loyality is to him.
Quitting heroin is not something you can half-ass. At all.
Addicts lie, and lie well. You really have no idea when she actually last used.
It does not sound like this is a true love for the ages type deal, if it where it might well be worth it for both parties to try to work through this together. I have "friends" who have dealt or are dealing with hardcore addiction and were willing to stick it out so it is not always wrong to stay with an addict.
That said, this sounds like it is doomed and can only go bad or worse for "James." It is very likely best for both parties if it ends and ends soon.
At the very least "James" needs to be brought up to speed by you and girl needs to get into an inpatient program ASAP.
Oh, and there is nothing wrong with "chatting up" a new girl, he's not married nor is he in an honest or truly long term relationship. Maybe if he was banging both and lying about it you tell him he's being a jerk.
However, due to the fact that he is hanging with new girl, it does not sound like he is to serious about old girl, certainly not marry her serious. Time for all parties to move on, if old girl gets sober and James is single when she does (and stays sober) that's when they can see about rekindling the spark.
So I have a good friend named "James." He is dating a girl named "Kelly." I have become reluctant friends with Kelly through James.
This is what I know about their relationship:
-James and Kelly have been together for about 1.5 years now.
-James has a bright future. He is in his last year of med school. He will be going to residency next year (likely General Surgery). Kelly is still at least 2 years from graduating from undergrad (after already being in school for 4 years). She doesn't seem to take her education or future seriously. She has expressed things to James like, "I can't wait till you're a doctor so I can buy X."
-James seems to be taking care of all the things in his and Kelly's life. He pays about 3/4 of the bills - including rent. Not only does Kelly not contribute her fair share, she seems to not appreciate James' efforts.
-Kelly has a history of opiate use that has turned into heroin only recently. She has told me that she has been using for about 1 year. At her worst, she has been using Heroin about twice per week. She last used about 1 month ago. She has only told James about a few Opiate episodes, but she has him convinced that it's not a problem. She is currently dealing with the withdrawals from Heroin (she constantly calls me to talk about her depression / anxiety / sleep problems that are a result of the withdrawals). To make things worse, I'm not sure about her motivation to quit. She says she wants to go to NA, but she has been saying that for at least 3 months and hasn't gone yet. She also makes jokes about how she wishes she had Heroin - just never in front of James.
-I, as well as other friends, have told him that they don't belong together. James seems to agree, but he doesn't seem to be going about this the way we all thought he would. He says he has considered breaking up with Kelly, but he feels sorry for Kelly and doesn't know if he can find someone better (yes, he has some confidence issues).
-James confided in me that he has recently started "talking to a new girl" he knew from undergrad. He says he and new girl seem to have pretty good chemistry. She is also much more motivated about her future career than Kelly. Overall - if I were to look at it objectively - they seem like a much better fit. But James is obviously doing a not-too-nice thing.
So here are my questions.
1. I am being asked to keep secrets by both James and Kelly. What do I do?
2. Is "talking to a new girl" while in a relationship OK? James argues that it's like searching for a job while you still have employment. I think it's pretty scummy.
But to answer your questions; you have to figure out what you are comfortable living with. I have a friend that has a wife and kids and a girl on the side. Lying to him is just a way of bending the truth so that everyone is happy. Me, personally , I lie only in the most superficial manners. Everything else I strive to tell the complete truth.
There is nothing wrong with talking to someone when your currently with someone. That's the only way you know if you should value what you have or drop it and chase after something else. If your willing to chase, then you have your answer. The scummy part is when you cross that fine line. Talking is one thing but as soon as it becomes physical then you are cheating. As long as James breaks up with Kelly before he does anything is, in my book, ethically kosher
Have a good chat with both of them. Preferably separate. Tell Kelly to get her **** together if she wants to continue with James because James is walking another path completely. Tell James that if Kelly doesn't change, it would probably be better to be single.
It's grey. There are arguments on both sides for this and they both have merits. Tell James to tread lightly
My daughter lost her mother to a hidden heroin addiction. Tell you friend before its too late. If she's using, its not twice a week or once a month, especially with drug history. She's using regularly. And with Heroin, the withdrawl alone can kill her (as it did my daughter's mother).
ThaDeceptikon - I'm very sorry for your loss.
I should elaborate a little more. I do have a bias against Kelly. I want her to get better, and I'm hopeful that she can become drug-free. James and our mutual friends in medicine all believe the same thing. Maybe it's because we're all mentally trained to believe in people.
Based on the patients with opiate / heroin problems that I've seen, Kelly doesn't seem to be in too deep - if that makes any sense. The fact that she has been able to keep her problems away from James suggests that she she is not in such a terrible shape that she cannot be saved.
James feels sorry for Kelly. I know that he's keeping her around because of that as well we because he just needs more confidence in himself. I'm sure plenty of ladies don't mind giving him a chance - just look to the new girl for evidence. Maybe it'll be best for him if I don't confront him about the scummy behavior of chatting up new girl while still in a relationship. If it works out, maybe he'll get enough confidence to break it off with Kelly.
Anyway, thanks again for the comments. I have never been put in this kind of situation (though I've been in a relationship where my bf didn't pull his own weight - I got rid of him pretty quickly).
Kelly is a drug addict and needs professional help. But it isn't James' responsibility to 'save her'. If you feel the need to help, call 2-1-1 and ask for help with drug abuse in your area.
And no, it's not okay for James to be 'talking to a new girl' while still with Kelly. He needs to break up with her.
James needs to break up with her because this can quickly become a major problem for his career. If he's found with drugs in his home, his medical career is effectively over before it's begun.
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As a sidenote, you should probably be distancing yourself from Kelly as well until she is able to kick the addiction. If you want to continue spending time with her, then even though this may sound extreme, you should be in a 12 step program as well. As long as your around someone going through a serious addiction and you don't know how to properly deal with it, you are causing more damage than helping. Keep in mind that the information she is giving you in regards to her usage is just as much of a lie / half truth as she is telling to James.
After re-reading my post, I can see how someone would assume this. The answer is no. I am not the new girl.
Shadowlink ..
Thanks for the advice. New update: James is going to see new girl this weekend. I'm planning to distance myself from both James and Kelly for the time being while James figures out what to do with this.
I actually discussed Heroin (without mentioning anything from this thread) with a Psychiatry resident friend. She confirmed a lot of what you said. She told me that a lot of addicts will lie about their use and willingness to change. She says it's pretty much a lose-lose situation to date one of them.
That sounds all well and good. I can't say it's imprudent to give those guys space.
First, among these people, James matters the most. If he's two-timing someone, it's not great, but you have indicated that he has anxiety/confidence/esteem issues and it's what he needs to do. (This I'm extrapolating from the approach Psych consultants took when dealing with those who engage in self-harm; let them do that, as it's more preferable to, say, death by suicide, then slowly move to something less severe, like marker pens.)
Kelly's a mess and, until she sorts out herself and there's a good reason for you guys to even be friends, cut the cord. The only safe amount of heroin for a person is no heroin, and she should seriously consider and commence a programme to kick her habit. She could need you guys to get clean but it's not a good idea; in fact, it's often counter-productive to simply recovery. Afterwards and after you know how to deal with someone (as an addict and after recovery, as there is a sizeable risk for relapse), I don't think it's too good an idea to be a buddy.
Whoever the new girl is, well, all the best to her and James. It might work, it mightn't work. She sounds nice.
Yeah. Definitely.
Edit: Shadowlink mentioned 12-step programmes. In addition to that, few of them end; after-care programme exist for the former addict and friends/family/etc. Aye, it's a tough life.
You're absolutely right about the dangers of Heroin. I already know about Kelly's relapses. We've suggested NA, other programs, therapy, etc.. to her in the past. But she always counters by saying she doesn't have money. Yet she seems to have money for drugs ... (another topic the Psychiatry friend and I discussed about. She called it the drug user's "cash for stash" ... can't be bothered to use it for things like bills).
Thanks again for all the comments!
Quitting heroin is not something you can half-ass. At all.
Addicts lie, and lie well. You really have no idea when she actually last used.
It does not sound like this is a true love for the ages type deal, if it where it might well be worth it for both parties to try to work through this together. I have "friends" who have dealt or are dealing with hardcore addiction and were willing to stick it out so it is not always wrong to stay with an addict.
That said, this sounds like it is doomed and can only go bad or worse for "James." It is very likely best for both parties if it ends and ends soon.
At the very least "James" needs to be brought up to speed by you and girl needs to get into an inpatient program ASAP.
Oh, and there is nothing wrong with "chatting up" a new girl, he's not married nor is he in an honest or truly long term relationship. Maybe if he was banging both and lying about it you tell him he's being a jerk.
However, due to the fact that he is hanging with new girl, it does not sound like he is to serious about old girl, certainly not marry her serious. Time for all parties to move on, if old girl gets sober and James is single when she does (and stays sober) that's when they can see about rekindling the spark.
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