Recently I've had a fall out with someone I know and I do not consider him a friend anymore (we'll call him "Bob" to make it easier). Last Thursday, without provocation, Bob came to my house and my father allowed him entry inside. My father knows Bob and only knew that he was my friend, but did not know about my falling out with Bob. Meanwhile my mother is in the bedroom and unaware of Bob's arrival, and my father retreats to the bedroom assuming all is fine and dandy.
I ask what Bob is doing here and he tells me that he was "in the neighborhood and wanted to stop by". I told him that I was busy and asked that he leave. He refused to leave. He told me that since my father and mother invited me inside the house that I had no right to have him leave because I do not own the house (side note: I do live in the house and pay rent and they are my natural parents). I had mentioned that I would call the police if he did not leave. Bob didn't seem to care as he mentioned before that there was nothing I could do since my parents allowed him inside and "wanted me here".
I go to my parents room, tell them that I do not want Bob in the house, and my father says nothing. My mother tells me that "I'm psychotic" after I tell her I was going to call the police if he did not leave. At that point I just mulled over the fact that I could not get him out of the house and resigned to conversation with him for a few minutes. He told me that he wants to talk it over and said that he will be returning next week if I do not answer my phone to his calls. After that Bob leaves.
Needless to say I was furious about the matter and am still fuming about it. I've spoken to my parents about the issue and they seem indifferent about the scenario. I'd rather not go into the details about my fall out with Bob, but I wanted to ask the forum a few questions:
1) What are my rights, if any, for refusing entry to an unwanted guest? I do not own the house, but I do pay rent and I am blood related to my parents. I've been a resident in the house for 25 years. I feel at this point that if my parents give consent to anybody entering the house that I have no legal defense to refusing that person entry.
2) I really don't like getting the police involved -- and I never have actually called the police -- but I am unsure of what Bob is capable of doing as we did not have a positive falling out. I'd rather not talk it out either as I know there will be no resolution to the matter. How else can I handle the matter should he return to my house and my parents invite him inside?
3) Do I have a right to complain to his landlord, place of occupation, or any other official representative other than the police about his actions? <--Obviously not something I want to do. Just a random thought.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Perhaps you all talk like adults or grown people, noting your wants, your reasons and thinking, other parties' wants and other parties' reasons and thinking.
Sternly talk to Bob and sort out your thing with him; either tell him to get stuffed or kiss and make up and let him into your home. If he enters your domicile, just call the damn police! You could sue him for trespass, harassment, nuisance or other torts. You could get an injunction against him. You could do various things.
Although there's not that much stuff and it's not too poorly written (thanks for that), there's simply a lot to read but there's not that much substance; critical details are missing.
I can't say with certainty as to what specific actions are available to you, not at all helped by the absence of any knowledge as to the specific jurisdiction in question (in some jurisdictions, you can press charges for trespass despite not actually owning the property, provided you possess it or live in it; and, in any case, you can call the police) and what, I guess, the SOPs are. However, a good bet would be to seek counsel; if you don't or can't spend much money, maybe there's pro bono, subsidised or cheap legal aid.
As a final note, what the hell's wrong with your mother or your relationship with her? That "you're psychotic!" seems like a gross over-reaction to your informing her that you would call the police, particularly if she's aware of the tension between you and Bob. That struck me as very odd.
Quote from Jubileus »
3) Do I have a right to complain to his landlord, place of occupation, or any other official representative other than the police about his actions?
Excuse me but how is it that you need to ask this?
1) What are my rights, if any, for refusing entry to an unwanted guest? I do not own the house, but I do pay rent and I am blood related to my parents. I've been a resident in the house for 25 years. I feel at this point that if my parents give consent to anybody entering the house that I have no legal defense to refusing that person entry.
2) I really don't like getting the police involved -- and I never have actually called the police -- but I am unsure of what Bob is capable of doing as we did not have a positive falling out. I'd rather not talk it out either as I know there will be no resolution to the matter. How else can I handle the matter should he return to my house and my parents invite him inside?
3) Do I have a right to complain to his landlord, place of occupation, or any other official representative other than the police about his actions?
1) None, you can leave the house till Bob leaves. You "may" have a right to keep Bob out of your bedroom. You could go to court and get a restraining order, but you need to have some proof for why this guy is a thread to you and that he is harassing you. Simply not liking someone any more isn't sufficient.
2) you can leave
3) No
You probably don't want to hear this, but i suspect you and bob were good friends for sometime. I wouldn't be surprised if bob told your parents and since they know how you tick, like any reasonable parent they are giving their child their best opportunity to make peace. I don't know what happened between you and Bob that's between you and him. I recommend giving it sometime and letting cooler heads prevail.
1) What are my rights, if any, for refusing entry to an unwanted guest? I do not own the house, but I do pay rent and I am blood related to my parents. I've been a resident in the house for 25 years. I feel at this point that if my parents give consent to anybody entering the house that I have no legal defense to refusing that person entry.
You have every right to refuse someone entry, but if a parent leans over your shoulder and tells the person to come in, they can come in. You don't have is the right to kick someone out who won't leave, that resides with your parents.
Strictly speaking, to dissect your reasoning here:
1) Your parents own the home, not you. You are also a guest in your parent's house. It's up to them who is and isn't a guest.
2) Your parents are not dead, so your relationship to them is irrelevant. You will not own a portion of their home unless you inherit it from them.
3) The 'paying rent' arrangement, without a contract, doesn't lend you any tenant rights. By law, a 'landlord' has to provide a contract. What you're actually paying your parents is simply a contribution to the household.
My older sister, her husband and their children live with my parents. We approached this issue a little while ago, because they seemed to think living at the house and paying my parents 'rent' entitled them to a larger share of the house than it does me and my wife. Short answer: It does not. Right now you're merely a guest in your parents house, no matter how long term, and it still 100% belongs to him. Bob had just as much right to be there as you did.
2) I really don't like getting the police involved -- and I never have actually called the police -- but I am unsure of what Bob is capable of doing as we did not have a positive falling out. I'd rather not talk it out either as I know there will be no resolution to the matter. How else can I handle the matter should he return to my house and my parents invite him inside?
Ask your parents not to invite him in. Neither of you sound particular mature in this, but if he's not a threat for physical violence, simply go lock yourself into your room or ignore his presence.
Calling the police on him is, quite frankly, ridiculous. He's not committing any crime and calling the police is a rather large escalation for someone who simply wants to talk.
3) Do I have a right to complain to his landlord, place of occupation, or any other official representative other than the police about his actions?
No. Not in a legal sense or in a rational sense. You start calling his work or his landlord about this, and you're the crazy person here, you're the one harassing him.
Seriously, what happened between you two? This seems like a rather extreme overreaction on your part to what, at worst, should be an annoyance. If we don't know what happened, we can't gauge a better solution to your problem.
Ask your parents not to invite him in. Neither of you sound particular mature in this, but if he's not a threat for physical violence, simply go lock yourself into your room or ignore his presence.
Calling the police on him is, quite frankly, ridiculous. He's not committing any crime and calling the police is a rather large escalation for someone who simply wants to talk.
Yeah, I could not have expressly said this better.
Calling the police is by all means doable, but it seems pretty damn severe and mean-spirited for what could very well be something petty and totally trivial. It's like bringing a rocket launcher to a snowball fight.
Also, as a 25+-year-old person, perhaps it's time to consider moving out, regardless of the circumstances. Without this Bob fella, it doesn't sound like home life is copacetic.
As a final note, what the hell's wrong with your mother or your relationship with her? That "you're psychotic!" seems like a gross over-reaction to your informing her that you would call the police, particularly if she's aware of the tension between you and Bob. That struck me as very odd.
We have a good relationship. My mother overreacted as badly as I did. She didn't know why I was so serious over calling the police since we're generally a calm and laid back family. Why she chose those words? She told me she didn't know but she has since apologized when I last spoke to her.
Quote from Tormod »
You probably don't want to hear this, but i suspect you and bob were good friends for sometime. I wouldn't be surprised if bob told your parents and since they know how you tick, like any reasonable parent they are giving their child their best opportunity to make peace. I don't know what happened between you and Bob that's between you and him. I recommend giving it sometime and letting cooler heads prevail.
Good friends would be an understatement. We were best friends for quite some time. Sometimes you just run into hurdles that are too high to overcome when it comes to friendships. I do not want to get into the specifics of what my fall out with Bob consists of since that is not the topic of discussion, but I do appreciate your advice. Also my parents have no clue as to what the reason for the fall out is and I do not intend on telling them.
Quote from Jay13x »
Seriously, what happened between you two? This seems like a rather extreme overreaction on your part to what, at worst, should be an annoyance. If we don't know what happened, we can't gauge a better solution to your problem.
Like I mentioned earlier I do not want to get into the specifics of the fall out between me and Bob. I am only interested in knowing if I have a (legal) right to refuse him entry into a house that I do not own but pay rent in (even though there is no contractual document showing this). I do appreciate your advice and willingness to weigh in on the matter.
I am grateful for everybody's responses to the thread and have given consideration as to how I will handle it. For now, I will seek the avenue of moving out of the house and start saving for it. As far as for Bob and him appearing at my house I will simply leave the house if he should return. No words, no fighting: simply depart the house and go somewhere else for the time being. Should it boil down to him putting his hands on me or forcing entry into the house without my parents permission then I will exercise my liberty to call the police. I really don't want it to go that far.
I am only interested in knowing if I have a (legal) right to refuse him entry into a house that I do not own but pay rent in (even though there is no contractual document showing this). I do appreciate your advice and willingness to weigh in on the matter.
Then the answer is no, you don't have a legal recourse for someone your parents invited into the house.
As far as for Bob and him appearing at my house I will simply leave the house if he should return. No words, no fighting: simply depart the house and go somewhere else for the time being. Should it boil down to him putting his hands on me or forcing entry into the house without my parents permission then I will exercise my liberty to call the police. I really don't want it to go that far.
Simply leaving is the more mature option (with a "I do not want to speak with you"). However, be aware that this (even just the thought of involving the police) can escalate very quickly, and you should look up the relevant New York laws pertaining to harassment. Even if he touches you, I wouldn't recommend calling the police. Just think about what you're going say to the officers when they arrive. Is it a compelling enough reason to warrant their attention? Unless he is an actual danger to you for some reason, don't get the police involved in an ugly break-up (of friends).
I'm going to reiterate that this seems pretty extreme. Whatever the issue is, I recommend letting him say what he wants to say and simply holding firm to whatever your position is. It (or he) will go away a lot faster than if you continue to simply ignore him. "No, we're not friends anymore because X,Y,Z, and you won't change my mind by arguing with me, please leave me alone" is a LOT more effective than simply ignoring him or leaving any time you might have to confront him.
Simply leaving is the more mature option (with a "I do not want to speak with you"). However, be aware that this can escalate very quickly, and you should look up the relevant New York laws pertaining to harassment. Even if he touches you, I wouldn't recommend calling the police. Just think about what you're going say to the officers when they arrive. Is it a compelling enough reason to warrant their attention?
If I called the police I would tell them what happened. According to NYS Penal Law it would be harassment in the second degree if he were to touch me. I have a right to my own personal space and nobody has the right to touch me without my consent regardless how minor it might seem.
Quote from Jay13x »
I'm going to reiterate that this seems pretty extreme. Even in high school I tolerated my worst 'Frenemy's presence in my life, largely because it was unavoidable. Whatever the issue is, I recommend letting him say what he wants to say and simply holding firm to whatever your position is. It (or he) will go away a lot faster than if you continue to simply ignore him.
The truth is is that I'm not interested in hearing what he has to say because we have already discussed this at great lengths before his appearance at my house. I would much rather prefer to ignore him and move on. Giving him attention or any reaction to his behavior would only provoke further discourse. I feel it's better to just leave it be and move on. Things will be a lot better -- at least for me -- if this happens.
he sounds dangerous...restraining order is in order if he insists he is going to continuously violate your living space (with the bizarre collusion of your parents)...
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I'd just talk to your parents. They obviously didn't know your situation and made a mistake. Don't be too hard of them for that. However, don't explain your problems with Bob in any greater detail than you are comfortable with. Go over what they absolutely need to know and if you want to share more then do so. I can be candid with my mother regarding most things but perhaps you have a different sort of relationship with your parents.
Good friends would be an understatement. We were best friends for quite some time. Sometimes you just run into hurdles that are too high to overcome when it comes to friendships. I do not want to get into the specifics of what my fall out with Bob consists of since that is not the topic of discussion, but I do appreciate your advice. Also my parents have no clue as to what the reason for the fall out is and I do not intend on telling them.
I understand, I've lost some friendships in my life. Its the people that are closest to you can hurt you the most and vice versa.
What I meant by "Bob telling your parents", is not that he was specific and detailed. He could have said "Jubileus and I have been disagreeing lately, and we need to talk it out" Your parents recognizing that he was your best friend, wanted to give your every opportunity to make things right.
With one of my best friends I falling out with some 20 years, we met and spoke about it and got as much closure as we could before moving on separately.
Nothing I've read is worth escalating, and at best it seems that "Bob" is making some effort to speak with you. No more, no less. Friendships, like marriage its easy to get along with things are fun and going well. But a true test is the struggle through adversity
The truth is is that I'm not interested in hearing what he has to say because we have already discussed this at great lengths before his appearance at my house. I would much rather prefer to ignore him and move on. Giving him attention or any reaction to his behavior would only provoke further discourse. I feel it's better to just leave it be and move on. Things will be a lot better -- at least for me -- if this happens.
Sure. If you've already talked about it ad nauseum, just walk away.
Yeah, this is likely a case of the parents not having enough info.
I mean if Bob really overstepped his bounds and caused a destruction of the friend status then you may have to reveal the situation to your parents.
Otherwise, perhaps this just happens again another night which could be problematic. I realize some families conceal these problems far more then others and keep problems to themselves no matter what, but I was not raised in such situations.
Me and my parents are going to have a sit down tonight and discuss what happened last Thursday and some other issues going forward. They both seem very receptive about the idea and hopefully it will end well.
For those of you commenting that I should have told my parents about what happened between me and Bob let me clarify one thing: Bob has never come to my house before without my invitation and I have always told my parents when I was inviting Bob over. I never invite a guest without permission from my parents because, like most of you have said, it is their house and their rules -- I am okay with this.
However, I do not intend on going into the details about the fall out between me and Bob when I speak to my parents. We have an understanding that some things are best left alone when it comes to sharing information. Although I am aware that letting my parents know that Bob and I were not friends might have changed their decision to invite them inside the house in the first place, it would not have changed the fact that Bob did show up uninvited to my house.
Still, these are things we are going to talk about tonight and hopefully clear the air of any tension and confusion.
Things will be a lot better -- at least for me -- if this happens.
The first question I come down to, did this involve drugs or violence or psychological abuse? If none of those came to pass, then you're playing ostrich with unresolved emotions. Being best friends with someone is getting a divorce and people feeling like they have been heard gives them significant closure and less likely to act out in unpredictable ways.
Would it really, though? That's the other thing to look at. Are you scared that he might convince you to be his friend again?
I don't care what happened, outside of drugs or threats of violence or theft of property he may just want to apologize and realize the relationship is over. If you do not want to deal with him directly, get an authority involved that can act as mediator. Police sometimes, sometimes not the wisest choice, though.
The question is whether he felt he has been heard, if you had a big fight without a discussion then those unresolved conflicts aren't going to go away or at least feel that he achieved some peace by taking some responsibility for his actions with a good, mature discussion. Has that been one thought?
This seems to be about you, without consideration for his feeling. Emotions a tricky thing, if you're dealing with an abusive drug addict then yes it's psychological manipulation. If you're dealing with someone who banged your wife, then you may want to use a negotiator of sorts like a priest that's good at conflict resolution and mediation to make sure both parties feel they were heard in a situation that is comfortable with both of them and then move on.
"At least for me" if I act like an ostrich to make the situation go away and get other people to fight my battles for me. It never does, with situations of bullying yes it takes authority to incite and inflict pain to go after someone. Don't do it alone, get someone that has authority in his eyes that will have him do what they say. Then go to the police with threat of force, record all behaviors, and the mediator can also act as a touchstone witness that a reasonable attempt to make a conflict end would greatly backfire and show more than enough credibility in your direction.
Ignoring isn't a valid tactic, did it make the school yard bully go away? Not really, not until you told him to **** off. Find a more mature way of telling to him **** off.
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The first question I come down to, did this involve drugs or violence or psychological abuse?
No.
Quote from Captain Morgan »
Would it really, though? That's the other thing to look at. Are you scared that he might convince you to be his friend again?
First question yes. Second question no.
Quote from Captain Morgan »
The question is whether he felt he has been heard, if you had a big fight without a discussion then those unresolved conflicts aren't going to go away or at least feel that he achieved some peace by taking some responsibility for his actions with a good, mature discussion. Has that been one thought?
All issues were discussed and all opinions were heard. We both have our sentiments on what transpired and cannot reach an agreement as to how to remedy the situation. We didn't fight. We were mature about it.
Quote from Captain Morgan »
This seems to be about you, without consideration for his feeling.
That's a rather bold assumption but understandable without knowing the details. Long story short I did give consideration to his feelings and tried to seek out an opportunity to forgive and forget his actions. However, in the end I could not convince myself of this and have decided to pursue defriending him as my course of action.
Quote from Captain Morgan »
Ignoring isn't a valid tactic, did it make the school yard bully go away? Not really, not until you told him to **** off. Find a more mature way of telling to him **** off.
I don't see how this is relevant. As an individual I am allowed to associate with whom I want to and who to speak with. This is also the same with ignoring someone. If I choose not to associate with you anymore and don't wish to communicate with you or acknowledge you, then I do not feel that is being immature. Obviously we're going to have our own opinions as to what is immature, but ignoring someone is something I do not feel is immature.
I don't see how this is relevant. As an individual I am allowed to associate with whom I want to and who to speak with. This is also the same with ignoring someone. If I choose not to associate with you anymore and don't wish to communicate with you or acknowledge you, then I do not feel that is being immature. Obviously we're going to have our own opinions as to what is immature, but ignoring someone is something I do not feel is immature.
Depends on what you mean by ignore.... if you go to the same game store and he asks you to pass the "_____" and you pretend you didnt hear anything... you are being a child. If you just dont answer his calls/texts and dont hang out with him then yes you are just choosing not to associate with someone.
All you can do in this situation is ignore him. Just pretend like he's an ordinary person that has nothing to do in your life. If he bothers you with your work, just keep working. If he asks for something, just give it to him so that you don't provoke it.
Or make it clear that he's "unwanted" in the house: Ignore him, go outside, argue constantly, or just simply say, "please leave, I have no intention of interacting with you at the moment. I have work to do".
Depends on what you mean by ignore.... if you go to the same game store and he asks you to pass the "_____" and you pretend you didnt hear anything... you are being a child. If you just dont answer his calls/texts and dont hang out with him then yes you are just choosing not to associate with someone.
It would be the second part, not the first. I'd rather enjoy my spare time by going somewhere where I don't have to put forth the effort of ignoring him.
We have a good relationship. My mother overreacted as badly as I did. She didn't know why I was so serious over calling the police since we're generally a calm and laid back family. Why she chose those words? She told me she didn't know but she has since apologized when I last spoke to her.
It is good to hear that you and your mother have a good relationship and, given this, to hear that this was simply a irregular overreaction.
I am happy to hear that this is sorted between you and your mom.
I respect your right to privacy and won't press you about the former friend.
I'd think that, given some of the posts, particularly some solid ones from Jay, ITT, this would be fairly open and shut now. I guess you could treat it like any other crappy break up, even romantic ones; they do, after all, have multiple similar elements and are treated similarly.
1) What are my rights, if any, for refusing entry to an unwanted guest? I do not own the house, but I do pay rent and I am blood related to my parents. I've been a resident in the house for 25 years. I feel at this point that if my parents give consent to anybody entering the house that I have no legal defense to refusing that person entry.
Late comer to the thread here, but people should really not say anything about legal rights if they don't know what they're talking about.
Here are the elements of common law trespass in the US:
1) An unlawful (not-consentual) intrusion on a property interest of the plaintiff
2) Intent
3) Causation and Damages (some jurisdictions)
Note that for the first element you don't have to have the specific property interest of ownership in order to be trespassed against. You only have to have some recognizable property interest, of any kind. In your case, you live at the house. That gives you a "tenancy" there, which is a property interest that courts recognize. It doesn't matter that you do or don't pay rent. Sad day in America where you don't have any property rights that you didn't buy.
And it also isn't entirely conclusive if someone with a superior property interest to yours gives consent. What matters is the totality of the circumstances on whether it is reasonable for Bob to have concluded that he has consent. If he's coming there to see you, not your parents, and you tell him to leave, I think most would interpret those facts to indicate that it's NOT reasonable for Bob to conclude he had consent there. And if it's not reasonable for him to conclude that, then it doesn't matter even if he makes the mistake, as he apparently has, that he does have consent. He's wrong. He's being unreasonable, and the law imposes liability for that.
That's analyzed in the element of intent also. Intent doesn't require that the act be done for the purpose of causing a trespass. There is intent whenever the tortfeasor takes actions with knowledge that a tresspass would result. He knows he's entering into your house. He's not blindfolded. Anyone entering into someone else's house knows that, once you withdraw your consent, it's a trespass. So by taking the action of staying there unreasonably, he's committed a trespass.
Some jurisdictions require causation and damages for this. That means that you have to prove you suffered redressable harm as a result of it. Even in other jurisdictions though, you don't have to show damages, but if you don't then a court won't award you anything. There would just be a judgment on the books, for whatever future purpose that serves. So summing it up, even if he did trespass then you can't exactly sue him. You've got a right to your property, though. In itself, that means a lot, and it should.
3) Do I have a right to complain to his landlord, place of occupation, or any other official representative other than the police about his actions? <--Obviously not something I want to do. Just a random thought.
You have a right to exercise free speech about whatever you choose. They have a right of free speech though also in telling you to screw off.
And as long as what you're saying is true, you can even make statements that affect Bob's employment. The law only protects people from losing their jobs as a result of being slandered by lies, not from people telling truths about them. What employer cares about this though is another question. I can only say he can't sue you for it.
I think the question about the police is whether you can get a restraining order. I don't know about that one. (Note what it looks like for someone to say they don't know instead of talking out).
At any rate, it sounds like a social solution is more workable than a legal one. It seems like your parents are reasonable people. I just thought I would add, for the sake of your sense of personal security at home, that you very much do have rights in your own home. I'm actually pretty shocked at some of the responses to the contrary, wrong as they may be. People's sense of security at home seems like a pretty fundamental human right to me, and I kind of have to take a minute to barf at a culture that believes you don't have rights unless you buy them.
Edit:
And in an unrelated topic that a few posters here might be interested in, your parents can't kick you out of your house in the US either, even if you are an adult. They have to evict you as they would any other tenant. Most kids will leave on their own when they're asked, I suppose, but say some day your parents throw a fit and tell you to leave their house, you don't have to. They have to go through the normal eviction proceedings. They can say that the cause for eviction is failure to pay rent, damage to property, hostility, or any of the usual reasons, but they do have to go through the process. That process lasts at least a month, maybe more. Just in case anyone is in that situation, I thought I'd add that.
Second Edit:
Likewise FYI, calling the police is about the most misguided thing that you can do when you want to enforce your rights against someone. This is probably the #1 on the list of mistaken beliefs people have about the law. Police and the criminal court enforce the rights of the state. Civil courts enforce the rights of the people. Sometimes a violation of your right will be a crime, sometimes it won't be. So unless you feel a crime's being committed or you're in danger, you shouldn't call the police. Because the state does have an interest in preventing people from being harassed, assaulted, battered, burgled, and stolen from. These are crimes, and police apprehend people to charge them with crimes. It's just that a lot of the time, what's happening doesn't amount to a crime, but the individual still does have rights that are being violated. This would probably be the case where a guy shows up to your house invited, you try to kick him out, and then he refuses to leave but isn't threatening you. The police will tell you they can't help you based on what you said, and then it's a common mistake to think that you've got no rights there. But you do if it's your house. They just aren't the kinds of rights you call police for. On top of that, victims in the US have zero interest in a criminal case besides. A common mistaken belief is that a victim can call the court and ask for the "charges to be dropped". They can't. The state decides who it will prosecute, and who it won't. The state also doesn't give victims cash or repair the harm caused to them when criminals are convicted either. But yes, you can get a court to order that someone respect your individual property rights. You just don't call the police to do it. The mistaken thinking stems from the fact that most people don't have cash to pay civil judgments, or any rights that are worth money to begin with. Like I said above, any civil case like this would probably have no judgment value. But unfortunately, there aren't a lot of ways in the American legal system other than cash awards for a common person to enforce their rights against another. I just thought I'd add that, first, don't call the police automatically whenever you've got a problem like this, and second, don't interpret the police telling you they can't help to mean that you don't have rights.
Just an update for those who are still interested:
About a week ago me and my parents had a sit down and discussed what happened. We all agreed that Bob was no longer a friend of the family and would not be permitted entry into the house. However, I did acknowledge that at any point and time if my mother or father wanted to invite somebody into the house that I did not like, then I would leave the house quietly and go somewhere for a while (i.e. movies, walk in the park, out with other friends, etc.)
As far as calling the police goes my family and I will use that option only if we feel we are being threatened or if there is a shared concern that warrants having the authorities involved.
Regarding Bob he did try to call me last week and left a voicemail that he would stop by my house, but he never did. It's been about 2 weeks since the incident and I haven't seen Bob since. I can honestly say I feel a lot happier without him. Here's to hoping it will continue to be that way.
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I ask what Bob is doing here and he tells me that he was "in the neighborhood and wanted to stop by". I told him that I was busy and asked that he leave. He refused to leave. He told me that since my father and mother invited me inside the house that I had no right to have him leave because I do not own the house (side note: I do live in the house and pay rent and they are my natural parents). I had mentioned that I would call the police if he did not leave. Bob didn't seem to care as he mentioned before that there was nothing I could do since my parents allowed him inside and "wanted me here".
I go to my parents room, tell them that I do not want Bob in the house, and my father says nothing. My mother tells me that "I'm psychotic" after I tell her I was going to call the police if he did not leave. At that point I just mulled over the fact that I could not get him out of the house and resigned to conversation with him for a few minutes. He told me that he wants to talk it over and said that he will be returning next week if I do not answer my phone to his calls. After that Bob leaves.
Needless to say I was furious about the matter and am still fuming about it. I've spoken to my parents about the issue and they seem indifferent about the scenario. I'd rather not go into the details about my fall out with Bob, but I wanted to ask the forum a few questions:
1) What are my rights, if any, for refusing entry to an unwanted guest? I do not own the house, but I do pay rent and I am blood related to my parents. I've been a resident in the house for 25 years. I feel at this point that if my parents give consent to anybody entering the house that I have no legal defense to refusing that person entry.
2) I really don't like getting the police involved -- and I never have actually called the police -- but I am unsure of what Bob is capable of doing as we did not have a positive falling out. I'd rather not talk it out either as I know there will be no resolution to the matter. How else can I handle the matter should he return to my house and my parents invite him inside?
3) Do I have a right to complain to his landlord, place of occupation, or any other official representative other than the police about his actions?<--Obviously not something I want to do. Just a random thought.Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Perhaps you all talk like adults or grown people, noting your wants, your reasons and thinking, other parties' wants and other parties' reasons and thinking.
Sternly talk to Bob and sort out your thing with him; either tell him to get stuffed or kiss and make up and let him into your home. If he enters your domicile, just call the damn police! You could sue him for trespass, harassment, nuisance or other torts. You could get an injunction against him. You could do various things.
Although there's not that much stuff and it's not too poorly written (thanks for that), there's simply a lot to read but there's not that much substance; critical details are missing.
I can't say with certainty as to what specific actions are available to you, not at all helped by the absence of any knowledge as to the specific jurisdiction in question (in some jurisdictions, you can press charges for trespass despite not actually owning the property, provided you possess it or live in it; and, in any case, you can call the police) and what, I guess, the SOPs are. However, a good bet would be to seek counsel; if you don't or can't spend much money, maybe there's pro bono, subsidised or cheap legal aid.
As a final note, what the hell's wrong with your mother or your relationship with her? That "you're psychotic!" seems like a gross over-reaction to your informing her that you would call the police, particularly if she's aware of the tension between you and Bob. That struck me as very odd.
Excuse me but how is it that you need to ask this?
1) None, you can leave the house till Bob leaves. You "may" have a right to keep Bob out of your bedroom. You could go to court and get a restraining order, but you need to have some proof for why this guy is a thread to you and that he is harassing you. Simply not liking someone any more isn't sufficient.
2) you can leave
3) No
You probably don't want to hear this, but i suspect you and bob were good friends for sometime. I wouldn't be surprised if bob told your parents and since they know how you tick, like any reasonable parent they are giving their child their best opportunity to make peace. I don't know what happened between you and Bob that's between you and him. I recommend giving it sometime and letting cooler heads prevail.
You have every right to refuse someone entry, but if a parent leans over your shoulder and tells the person to come in, they can come in. You don't have is the right to kick someone out who won't leave, that resides with your parents.
Strictly speaking, to dissect your reasoning here:
1) Your parents own the home, not you. You are also a guest in your parent's house. It's up to them who is and isn't a guest.
2) Your parents are not dead, so your relationship to them is irrelevant. You will not own a portion of their home unless you inherit it from them.
3) The 'paying rent' arrangement, without a contract, doesn't lend you any tenant rights. By law, a 'landlord' has to provide a contract. What you're actually paying your parents is simply a contribution to the household.
My older sister, her husband and their children live with my parents. We approached this issue a little while ago, because they seemed to think living at the house and paying my parents 'rent' entitled them to a larger share of the house than it does me and my wife. Short answer: It does not. Right now you're merely a guest in your parents house, no matter how long term, and it still 100% belongs to him. Bob had just as much right to be there as you did.
Ask your parents not to invite him in. Neither of you sound particular mature in this, but if he's not a threat for physical violence, simply go lock yourself into your room or ignore his presence.
Calling the police on him is, quite frankly, ridiculous. He's not committing any crime and calling the police is a rather large escalation for someone who simply wants to talk.
No. Not in a legal sense or in a rational sense. You start calling his work or his landlord about this, and you're the crazy person here, you're the one harassing him.
Seriously, what happened between you two? This seems like a rather extreme overreaction on your part to what, at worst, should be an annoyance. If we don't know what happened, we can't gauge a better solution to your problem.
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Calling the police is by all means doable, but it seems pretty damn severe and mean-spirited for what could very well be something petty and totally trivial. It's like bringing a rocket launcher to a snowball fight.
Also, as a 25+-year-old person, perhaps it's time to consider moving out, regardless of the circumstances. Without this Bob fella, it doesn't sound like home life is copacetic.
We have a good relationship. My mother overreacted as badly as I did. She didn't know why I was so serious over calling the police since we're generally a calm and laid back family. Why she chose those words? She told me she didn't know but she has since apologized when I last spoke to her.
Good friends would be an understatement. We were best friends for quite some time. Sometimes you just run into hurdles that are too high to overcome when it comes to friendships. I do not want to get into the specifics of what my fall out with Bob consists of since that is not the topic of discussion, but I do appreciate your advice. Also my parents have no clue as to what the reason for the fall out is and I do not intend on telling them.
Like I mentioned earlier I do not want to get into the specifics of the fall out between me and Bob. I am only interested in knowing if I have a (legal) right to refuse him entry into a house that I do not own but pay rent in (even though there is no contractual document showing this). I do appreciate your advice and willingness to weigh in on the matter.
I am grateful for everybody's responses to the thread and have given consideration as to how I will handle it. For now, I will seek the avenue of moving out of the house and start saving for it. As far as for Bob and him appearing at my house I will simply leave the house if he should return. No words, no fighting: simply depart the house and go somewhere else for the time being. Should it boil down to him putting his hands on me or forcing entry into the house without my parents permission then I will exercise my liberty to call the police. I really don't want it to go that far.
Then the answer is no, you don't have a legal recourse for someone your parents invited into the house.
Simply leaving is the more mature option (with a "I do not want to speak with you"). However, be aware that this (even just the thought of involving the police) can escalate very quickly, and you should look up the relevant New York laws pertaining to harassment. Even if he touches you, I wouldn't recommend calling the police. Just think about what you're going say to the officers when they arrive. Is it a compelling enough reason to warrant their attention? Unless he is an actual danger to you for some reason, don't get the police involved in an ugly break-up (of friends).
I'm going to reiterate that this seems pretty extreme. Whatever the issue is, I recommend letting him say what he wants to say and simply holding firm to whatever your position is. It (or he) will go away a lot faster than if you continue to simply ignore him. "No, we're not friends anymore because X,Y,Z, and you won't change my mind by arguing with me, please leave me alone" is a LOT more effective than simply ignoring him or leaving any time you might have to confront him.
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If I called the police I would tell them what happened. According to NYS Penal Law it would be harassment in the second degree if he were to touch me. I have a right to my own personal space and nobody has the right to touch me without my consent regardless how minor it might seem.
The truth is is that I'm not interested in hearing what he has to say because we have already discussed this at great lengths before his appearance at my house. I would much rather prefer to ignore him and move on. Giving him attention or any reaction to his behavior would only provoke further discourse. I feel it's better to just leave it be and move on. Things will be a lot better -- at least for me -- if this happens.
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Moving out is a good idea though.
I understand, I've lost some friendships in my life. Its the people that are closest to you can hurt you the most and vice versa.
What I meant by "Bob telling your parents", is not that he was specific and detailed. He could have said "Jubileus and I have been disagreeing lately, and we need to talk it out" Your parents recognizing that he was your best friend, wanted to give your every opportunity to make things right.
With one of my best friends I falling out with some 20 years, we met and spoke about it and got as much closure as we could before moving on separately.
Nothing I've read is worth escalating, and at best it seems that "Bob" is making some effort to speak with you. No more, no less. Friendships, like marriage its easy to get along with things are fun and going well. But a true test is the struggle through adversity
Sure. If you've already talked about it ad nauseum, just walk away.
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I mean if Bob really overstepped his bounds and caused a destruction of the friend status then you may have to reveal the situation to your parents.
Otherwise, perhaps this just happens again another night which could be problematic. I realize some families conceal these problems far more then others and keep problems to themselves no matter what, but I was not raised in such situations.
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For those of you commenting that I should have told my parents about what happened between me and Bob let me clarify one thing: Bob has never come to my house before without my invitation and I have always told my parents when I was inviting Bob over. I never invite a guest without permission from my parents because, like most of you have said, it is their house and their rules -- I am okay with this.
However, I do not intend on going into the details about the fall out between me and Bob when I speak to my parents. We have an understanding that some things are best left alone when it comes to sharing information. Although I am aware that letting my parents know that Bob and I were not friends might have changed their decision to invite them inside the house in the first place, it would not have changed the fact that Bob did show up uninvited to my house.
Still, these are things we are going to talk about tonight and hopefully clear the air of any tension and confusion.
The first question I come down to, did this involve drugs or violence or psychological abuse? If none of those came to pass, then you're playing ostrich with unresolved emotions. Being best friends with someone is getting a divorce and people feeling like they have been heard gives them significant closure and less likely to act out in unpredictable ways.
Would it really, though? That's the other thing to look at. Are you scared that he might convince you to be his friend again?
I don't care what happened, outside of drugs or threats of violence or theft of property he may just want to apologize and realize the relationship is over. If you do not want to deal with him directly, get an authority involved that can act as mediator. Police sometimes, sometimes not the wisest choice, though.
The question is whether he felt he has been heard, if you had a big fight without a discussion then those unresolved conflicts aren't going to go away or at least feel that he achieved some peace by taking some responsibility for his actions with a good, mature discussion. Has that been one thought?
This seems to be about you, without consideration for his feeling. Emotions a tricky thing, if you're dealing with an abusive drug addict then yes it's psychological manipulation. If you're dealing with someone who banged your wife, then you may want to use a negotiator of sorts like a priest that's good at conflict resolution and mediation to make sure both parties feel they were heard in a situation that is comfortable with both of them and then move on.
"At least for me" if I act like an ostrich to make the situation go away and get other people to fight my battles for me. It never does, with situations of bullying yes it takes authority to incite and inflict pain to go after someone. Don't do it alone, get someone that has authority in his eyes that will have him do what they say. Then go to the police with threat of force, record all behaviors, and the mediator can also act as a touchstone witness that a reasonable attempt to make a conflict end would greatly backfire and show more than enough credibility in your direction.
Ignoring isn't a valid tactic, did it make the school yard bully go away? Not really, not until you told him to **** off. Find a more mature way of telling to him **** off.
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No.
First question yes. Second question no.
All issues were discussed and all opinions were heard. We both have our sentiments on what transpired and cannot reach an agreement as to how to remedy the situation. We didn't fight. We were mature about it.
That's a rather bold assumption but understandable without knowing the details. Long story short I did give consideration to his feelings and tried to seek out an opportunity to forgive and forget his actions. However, in the end I could not convince myself of this and have decided to pursue defriending him as my course of action.
I don't see how this is relevant. As an individual I am allowed to associate with whom I want to and who to speak with. This is also the same with ignoring someone. If I choose not to associate with you anymore and don't wish to communicate with you or acknowledge you, then I do not feel that is being immature. Obviously we're going to have our own opinions as to what is immature, but ignoring someone is something I do not feel is immature.
Depends on what you mean by ignore.... if you go to the same game store and he asks you to pass the "_____" and you pretend you didnt hear anything... you are being a child. If you just dont answer his calls/texts and dont hang out with him then yes you are just choosing not to associate with someone.
Or make it clear that he's "unwanted" in the house: Ignore him, go outside, argue constantly, or just simply say, "please leave, I have no intention of interacting with you at the moment. I have work to do".
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It would be the second part, not the first. I'd rather enjoy my spare time by going somewhere where I don't have to put forth the effort of ignoring him.
It is good to hear that you and your mother have a good relationship and, given this, to hear that this was simply a irregular overreaction.
I am happy to hear that this is sorted between you and your mom.
I respect your right to privacy and won't press you about the former friend.
I'd think that, given some of the posts, particularly some solid ones from Jay, ITT, this would be fairly open and shut now. I guess you could treat it like any other crappy break up, even romantic ones; they do, after all, have multiple similar elements and are treated similarly.
Late comer to the thread here, but people should really not say anything about legal rights if they don't know what they're talking about.
Here are the elements of common law trespass in the US:
1) An unlawful (not-consentual) intrusion on a property interest of the plaintiff
2) Intent
3) Causation and Damages (some jurisdictions)
Note that for the first element you don't have to have the specific property interest of ownership in order to be trespassed against. You only have to have some recognizable property interest, of any kind. In your case, you live at the house. That gives you a "tenancy" there, which is a property interest that courts recognize. It doesn't matter that you do or don't pay rent. Sad day in America where you don't have any property rights that you didn't buy.
And it also isn't entirely conclusive if someone with a superior property interest to yours gives consent. What matters is the totality of the circumstances on whether it is reasonable for Bob to have concluded that he has consent. If he's coming there to see you, not your parents, and you tell him to leave, I think most would interpret those facts to indicate that it's NOT reasonable for Bob to conclude he had consent there. And if it's not reasonable for him to conclude that, then it doesn't matter even if he makes the mistake, as he apparently has, that he does have consent. He's wrong. He's being unreasonable, and the law imposes liability for that.
That's analyzed in the element of intent also. Intent doesn't require that the act be done for the purpose of causing a trespass. There is intent whenever the tortfeasor takes actions with knowledge that a tresspass would result. He knows he's entering into your house. He's not blindfolded. Anyone entering into someone else's house knows that, once you withdraw your consent, it's a trespass. So by taking the action of staying there unreasonably, he's committed a trespass.
Some jurisdictions require causation and damages for this. That means that you have to prove you suffered redressable harm as a result of it. Even in other jurisdictions though, you don't have to show damages, but if you don't then a court won't award you anything. There would just be a judgment on the books, for whatever future purpose that serves. So summing it up, even if he did trespass then you can't exactly sue him. You've got a right to your property, though. In itself, that means a lot, and it should.
You have a right to exercise free speech about whatever you choose. They have a right of free speech though also in telling you to screw off.
And as long as what you're saying is true, you can even make statements that affect Bob's employment. The law only protects people from losing their jobs as a result of being slandered by lies, not from people telling truths about them. What employer cares about this though is another question. I can only say he can't sue you for it.
I think the question about the police is whether you can get a restraining order. I don't know about that one. (Note what it looks like for someone to say they don't know instead of talking out).
At any rate, it sounds like a social solution is more workable than a legal one. It seems like your parents are reasonable people. I just thought I would add, for the sake of your sense of personal security at home, that you very much do have rights in your own home. I'm actually pretty shocked at some of the responses to the contrary, wrong as they may be. People's sense of security at home seems like a pretty fundamental human right to me, and I kind of have to take a minute to barf at a culture that believes you don't have rights unless you buy them.
Edit:
And in an unrelated topic that a few posters here might be interested in, your parents can't kick you out of your house in the US either, even if you are an adult. They have to evict you as they would any other tenant. Most kids will leave on their own when they're asked, I suppose, but say some day your parents throw a fit and tell you to leave their house, you don't have to. They have to go through the normal eviction proceedings. They can say that the cause for eviction is failure to pay rent, damage to property, hostility, or any of the usual reasons, but they do have to go through the process. That process lasts at least a month, maybe more. Just in case anyone is in that situation, I thought I'd add that.
Second Edit:
Likewise FYI, calling the police is about the most misguided thing that you can do when you want to enforce your rights against someone. This is probably the #1 on the list of mistaken beliefs people have about the law. Police and the criminal court enforce the rights of the state. Civil courts enforce the rights of the people. Sometimes a violation of your right will be a crime, sometimes it won't be. So unless you feel a crime's being committed or you're in danger, you shouldn't call the police. Because the state does have an interest in preventing people from being harassed, assaulted, battered, burgled, and stolen from. These are crimes, and police apprehend people to charge them with crimes. It's just that a lot of the time, what's happening doesn't amount to a crime, but the individual still does have rights that are being violated. This would probably be the case where a guy shows up to your house invited, you try to kick him out, and then he refuses to leave but isn't threatening you. The police will tell you they can't help you based on what you said, and then it's a common mistake to think that you've got no rights there. But you do if it's your house. They just aren't the kinds of rights you call police for. On top of that, victims in the US have zero interest in a criminal case besides. A common mistaken belief is that a victim can call the court and ask for the "charges to be dropped". They can't. The state decides who it will prosecute, and who it won't. The state also doesn't give victims cash or repair the harm caused to them when criminals are convicted either. But yes, you can get a court to order that someone respect your individual property rights. You just don't call the police to do it. The mistaken thinking stems from the fact that most people don't have cash to pay civil judgments, or any rights that are worth money to begin with. Like I said above, any civil case like this would probably have no judgment value. But unfortunately, there aren't a lot of ways in the American legal system other than cash awards for a common person to enforce their rights against another. I just thought I'd add that, first, don't call the police automatically whenever you've got a problem like this, and second, don't interpret the police telling you they can't help to mean that you don't have rights.
About a week ago me and my parents had a sit down and discussed what happened. We all agreed that Bob was no longer a friend of the family and would not be permitted entry into the house. However, I did acknowledge that at any point and time if my mother or father wanted to invite somebody into the house that I did not like, then I would leave the house quietly and go somewhere for a while (i.e. movies, walk in the park, out with other friends, etc.)
As far as calling the police goes my family and I will use that option only if we feel we are being threatened or if there is a shared concern that warrants having the authorities involved.
Regarding Bob he did try to call me last week and left a voicemail that he would stop by my house, but he never did. It's been about 2 weeks since the incident and I haven't seen Bob since. I can honestly say I feel a lot happier without him. Here's to hoping it will continue to be that way.