Atheist here, and I've never had a problem with any religion. I make fun of Christianity, Islam, Atheism, Agnosticism, Rastafarianism, Pastafarianism, you name it. I argue with anyone about religion because its interesting to hear their views, and my loudest arguments are against other atheists, trying to convince them how stupid our views are.
However, problems arise in that Christianity has been around so long that it's ingrained in society. On the memorial day for VT, in a schoolwide meeting we were told that we would have a moment of silence. "Oh good," I thought. "A moment of silence, we can all respect the dead and do what we see fit and feel comfortable with about this whole thing." Five seconds into silence, our upper school director starts to pray, out loud, to us. I immediately look up, open my eyes and stare straight ahead for the rest of the time. The Muslims in the school, as well as all the other various religions we have represented were also staring straight ahead. Its disgusting that other religions can just be blatantly ignored because Christianity is supposedly in the majority. Having a moment of silence would have been perfectly all right for everyone present. The Christians could pray to God, the Muslims could pray to God, the Agnostics could sit and wonder what to do, and the Atheists could reflect. No problems at all. But when its just assumed that everyone will be okay with a Christian prayer, it seems like something isn't right.
I think BF's post was significantly more inflammatory. At least ChocoCid's post had a legitimate point or two buried in it.
Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with that. I do agree that BF's post was not worded in the best way, but believe it or not, it did have a point in it also. It was that things like was ChocoCid said are the reason that some Christians might feel persecuted. Some atheists are just as nasty and demeaning as the Religious Right, and even though there are a lot less of them, and maybe Christians aren't exactly persecuted, there are many people that have horrible, misguided feelings about Christians, especially on the internet.
I'll accept that most who profess themselves to be "Christian" might, from an ideological perspective, not exactly be (and you agree with ChocoCid's remark I quoted, and that you wouldn't associate yourself with them). But past that, it's something like "no true Scotsman".
Sorry, I don't know that phrase. But trust me, I disagree with many of the beliefs of the Religious Right, at least the political ones.
There are very few Christians harassed for being Christian (I'd like you to find an example, too). That's an exception as opposed to a rule. What I'm saying is that in America where most people are Christian, where tons of social support structures for Christians exist and enjoy tax breaks, and where Christianity has pervaded the culture, "Christian persecution" is almost always a joke.
What do you mean by "harassment"? I think the OP's point was that on this site especially, the opinions of many Christians are either discarded or treated very badly just because they are coming from a Christian. And I didn't know that Christians enjoy tax breaks.
Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with that. I do agree that BF's post was not worded in the best way, but believe it or not, it did have a point in it also. It was that things like was ChocoCid said are the reason that some Christians might feel persecuted. Some atheists are just as nasty and demeaning as the Religious Right, and even though there are a lot less of them, and maybe Christians aren't exactly persecuted, there are many people that have horrible, misguided feelings about Christians, especially on the internet.
If somebody felt persecuted by that, well...I'd suggest they go talk to certain Jewish octogenarians. On the other hand, BF's post had undertones of the video I linked.
Sorry, I don't know that phrase. But trust me, I disagree with many of the beliefs of the Religious Right, at least the political ones.
I know you disagree with their beliefs. Nothing wrong with that.
What do you mean by "harassment"?
Harassment is kind of what persecution entails.
I think the OP's point was that on this site especially, the opinions of many Christians are either discarded or treated very badly just because they are coming from a Christian.
Really? You'd have to give some evidence for that. Usually here, opinions are derided for having no solid basis.
And I didn't know that Christians enjoy tax breaks.
It was that things like was ChocoCid said are the reason that some Christians might feel persecuted. Some atheists are just as nasty and demeaning as the Religious Right, and even though there are a lot less of them, and maybe Christians aren't exactly persecuted, there are many people that have horrible, misguided feelings about Christians, especially on the internet.
But is that persecution or misunderstanding? I'm sorry, but when I think of religious persecution, I think of things like this. As Christians (yes, I am a Christian), we have broad freedom, even through the internet, to believe what we wish and worship how we wish without fear of retribution. Sure, some others may have harsh conceptions of what Christianity is based on the words and actions of people whom definitely do not speak for the beliefs of many of us. But before you turn on them, you have to ask yourself: do I ever act the same way towards others? Do I ever assume that an outspoken athiest is doing things just to destroy me or my religion instead of simply making statements which they believe to be true?
Sorry, I don't know that phrase. But trust me, I disagree with many of the beliefs of the Religious Right, at least the political ones.
As do I, but Einstienmonkey is right. Not only that, but I don't think God would exactly approve of putting down another's beliefs and saying they're not really a Christian because you don't agree with their interpretation of things or their actions. You're certainly allowed to point out how their actions are inconsistent with the Bible or your view of Christianity, but to take it to the next step and declare them "un-Christian" is logically fallacious and morally tenuous.
What do you mean by "harassment"? I think the OP's point was that on this site especially, the opinions of many Christians are either discarded or treated very badly just because they are coming from a Christian. And I didn't know that Christians enjoy tax breaks.
I disagree with the first part - though I haven't been here long, I've been involved in religious discussions and haven't been treated poorly because of my religion (in fact, the treatment here is probably better than most boards I've ever been to). And churches are tax-exempt organizations; though honestly, that statement is a bit unfair considering that other secular non-profit organizations get the same tax breaks.
I apologize if my statement was regarded as "inflammatory." It seemed to illustrate my point, at least to me. I don't believe that the "religious right" who want to impose religious in government are correct in that concept, but I still hold many of the same religious beliefs as them. Having such beliefs termed as "fairy tales and bull crap" is what bothers me. If you want to discuss, in a calm and collected manner, the problems with forcing religious views into government, I'm all for that. Just please do so with some respect for others.
And yes, having a documentary about atheism without regarding any atheists is ridiculous. However, my computer's not good enough to play online videos, so I don't know just what they said.
And churches are tax-exempt organizations; though honestly, that statement is a bit unfair considering that other secular non-profit organizations get the same tax breaks.
I've always been wondering, if some Christians don't think like the Religious Right nor want them to be representative of all Christians why don't the other Christians rise up and do something about it? Christians are whining left and right about how they don't want to be seen as the Religious Right but do nothing to change that perspective. Why don't the Religious Left? gather together, get some power and show people that they can indeed be different. While the Religious Right does everything to be seen and heard, the rest speak just as loudly through their inaction. If you want people to see something else, then show us something.
@strongbad56 - The fact that you feel the need to proclaim that you are a "christian" during any conversation just brings a negaive light to you as a person. I'm sorry to say that in today's times of overpowering religious groups, adding yourself to said groups puts people at bay. Because so many people in the US are chirstian, I pretty much just don't even think about it. But when I have a conversation with someone and they say to me, "...well, as a Christian I feel that the best way to ....." and then they proceed to tell me that the best way to do something is "blah" BECAUSE they are a christian. At that point I associate their beliefs with those idiots to the far right who want to take away "The Shield" from my viewing pleasure because it has side shots of boobies. Even though I may agree with their view...because they felt the need to proclaim their christianity within a conversation that really never called for it....I put them in a different group.
So actually, it isn't the fact that you are persecuted because you're a christian....you probably feel persecuted because you go out of your way to proclaim that you are a christian in coversations where it probably isn't necessary for you to do so. You see, it is always the proclaimation of your belief that gets you ousted. If you feel strongly about your belief....then who's business is it to know what that belief is? Unless you are specifically asked what you believe, I see no reason to throw it into the mix. Once you do that....no matter what anyone else's belief is....you get grouped in with the crazys! I'm sorry....but people as a whole are over-reactive.
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
Calling a belief: "fairy tales and unprovable bull****" is very close to cramming something through someones throat.
Uh, no, it's not. It is denying what the other people are trying to push.
Although alot of people think evolutionism (most Ateists are evolutionists) isn't a belief, my opinion is that it is, theres no real proof for evolutionism, neither is there for any religions.
What the hell is "evolutionism"? Evolution is a scientific theory that has plenty of evidence to back it up. If you try to pull out the usual "it's just a theory" crap, let me remind you that gravity is a theory and the word "theory" means something different in the scientific purview.
Calling a religion "fairy tales and unprovable bull****" is according to me a sign of a complete lack of respect against that religion and its a attempt to attack that religion with aggresive words, just as some Christians might use aggresive words like "Youre going to hell!".
Your own statement contradicts you own point by actually persecuting a religion trying to convince that same religion that youre not persecuting it.
You're right. I don't respect religion. I don't respect a belief system which has been used to justify mass killing, torture, subjugation of others, and has been (and still is) used to hold back knowledge by centuries, if not more. Why should I?
"Aggressive words" about a belief are not persecution of those who hold that belief. I am not calling for the eradication of churches. I am not calling for the destruction of bibles. I am not calling to round up Christians and put them in gas chambers. Pointing out the problems with Christianity and the lies spouted by some of the believers is not persecution. Christians are not being persecuted. Nobody is stopping you from believing what you want to believe. Nobody is punishing you for believing it. Shoot, nobody is stopping Christians from indoctrinating their children.
You might not think that saying a religion is a fairy tale is a persecution, but most, if not all Christians take this a insult and hearing this once won't feel as a persecution, but there are alot of radical atheists out there who say similar things.
True there are also alot of christians doing the opposite, saying that someone will go to hell, well i see that as an insult too.
Again, pointing out lies and falsehood is not persecution. You are not being oppressed because of your religion.
I've always been wondering, if some Christians don't think like the Religious Right nor want them to be representative of all Christians why don't the other Christians rise up and do something about it? Christians are whining left and right about how they don't want to be seen as the Religious Right but do nothing to change that perspective. Why don't the Religious Left? gather together, get some power and show people that they can indeed be different. While the Religious Right does everything to be seen and heard, the rest speak just as loudly through their inaction. If you want people to see something else, then show us something.
Well, there are liberal Christians that are responding to that of the Religious Right. It's just difficult when many of the leaders drown out those voices, whether they're congregational leaders or political leaders. When you're in a position of such high power, some people choose to find ways to take advantage of it. The liberal Christians aren't going to get anywhere in the Republican party because of those that are already in that higher power. Christians that lack that compassion to all will side with those of higher power. At the same time, they won't get anywhere in the Democratic Party because they are assumed to be too conservative for the party. So there is no real place to go. So instead, other routes of action must be taken, which is to the rest of the world.
I know that in the Pacific Northwest, you constantly see a lot of compassion from Christians all over the place through their actions rather than their words. Feeding the poor, healing those that can't afford it, using their own personal funds and vacation time to go on mission trips all over the world, educating those by teaching them English, medical check-ups, as well as telling them the story of Christ. Those actions speak a lot louder on a personal level to those about what Christianity is all about.
Christians could just argue and debate with each other all day about translations of the Bible, but that is not the point of Christianity. The point is that there is hope in the world for those that feel that all is lost. There is someone out there in the world to help those that need it. To show love to everyone in this world because there is a God that loves us. By arguing with one another about such issues, we're wasting time, energy and not helping those that need it.
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Because so many people in the US are chirstian, I pretty much just don't even think about it. But when I have a conversation with someone and they say to me, "...well, as a Christian I feel that the best way to ....." and then they proceed to tell me that the best way to do something is "blah" BECAUSE they are a christian. At that point I associate their beliefs with those idiots to the far right who want to take away "The Shield" from my viewing pleasure because it has side shots of boobies. Even though I may agree with their view...because they felt the need to proclaim their christianity within a conversation that really never called for it....I put them in a different group.
But have you considered the reasoning for why people even bother sharing their beliefs? A lot of Christians know they aren't likely going to be successful in sharing about Christ, yet they still do it anyway. So why do it? It's because many of them believe that there is something special about knowing who Christ is. It has changed the life of many people in this world. Criminals and killers becoming compassionate loving people... People that were once were so into money and thinking that the poor did it all to themselves becoming careful individuals that share their resources and time to those that need it. There have been so many transformations in character in this world because of these stories by what you consider "crazies". They want to share those stories of how one individual from 2000 years ago changed their life forever.
When you are affected by something of such great magnitude, you want to share it with the rest of the world. It's like if you got a dream job that paid you amazingly well and you got to have a lot of fun everyday. You're not going to be coming home and answering to your friends or your wife about your day as being, "Meh, it was alright," or how you got it as being, "I just got it. That's all." You're going to want to share the stories and the obstacles and ordeals that you may have went through in order to get it.
It's the same way with Christians sharing to people about Christ. They want to share the ordeals and stories that they went through with you.
(I do have to admit, some people are very bad at sharing the stories and as a result, people do shy away from it. I know I did for a long time when I kept seeing people around my high school and first couple of years of college walking around with sandwich boards or signs saying, "You're going to Hell!" It's pushes people away from knowing who Christ is. Some people just can't do it.)
SiestaGuru, you're clearly missing my point.
"Pointing out that x is a lie" is not persecution.
Saying "X is true" is not cramming X down a person's throat.
Here, let me give you some examples of what I'm talking about:
The Religious Right in America is wanting to force their religion on everyone else by doing the following:
(A) Trying to outlaw things their religion says is bad- Gay marriage is a perfect example of this
(B) Forcing their religion into the government despite our First Amendment protection against such- see the National Motto circa the 1950s, the dollar bill, the pledge of allegiance, the crusade to put the ten commandments in courtrooms, trying to push prayer into the school, trying to get scientific theories they don't like kicked out of schools- in short, the general crusade to make America a "Christian Country".
(C) Trying to force anyone who's not a Christian in high-ranking public offices to "act Christian" - see the Muslim congressman this year that was lambasted by the Right because he wanted to swear in on a Koran
...
I could continue, but suffice it to say that the Religious Right is in fact trying to cram Christianity down everyone's throat.
THIS is what I'm referring to.
Want to go to church? Go ahead, I'm not going to stop you. But when you change our national motto to the unconstitutional "in god we trust" , when you put it all over our money, when you trample on my freedom in the name of your religion, I damn well will complain.
Well im not english, so i have no clue what the word is literally translated to english, but well..
Evolutionism to the theory of evolution = Christianity to the Theory of Christ(well yes i couldnt get a better name out of that theory but you get the point :p)
Ah, this explains it. "Evolutionism" is often used as a phrase by right-wing fundamentalists to try to portray evolution as a "religion" of sorts. Evolution isn't a religion. It's not a "faith". It is a scientific theory, and is the best explanation we have for the phenomena we've seen regarding speciation.
Don't take me wrong, I'm smart, and I was in fact a total Atheist before, but I'm beginning to doubt all sides. The fact is, I still don't believe in any religion or even the presence of a God, but I know for a fact that this all couldn't be created by evolution.
The reason? It's been a year since my ex left me and my feelings for her haven't changed at all. I love her more than anything in the entire world, even though she's in love with someone else and we don't even talk any more. I just know, at least inside myself, that all the love I feel can't possibly have come about naturally. Sure, science and the natural world might contain enough information and depth to kill anyone through sheer knowledge overload, but I know for a fact the love I feel is infinitely deeper than that could ever even hope to be.
O btw you say the theory of evolution has loads of evidence, well ive yet to see one true piece of evidence.
Then you haven't been looking. They've done tons of experiments with fruit flies, moths, etc. They've found fossils of several transitional species.
Shoot, humans have even CAUSED evolution in the real world, not just in the laboratory. Look at how many breeds of dogs we've created by selective breeding.
Anyways gravity is kindda easy to prove, throw a rock in the air and youll see it comes back (with a bit of luck not on youre head).
That's not "proof" in the scientific/mathematical sense. It's an anecdote. Do it a hundred times and it becomes "evidence." It is not proof. A proof in the scientific/mathematical sense means basically that B is necessarily true given A. For instance, given a right angle in a triangle, and no other information, you can prove that the length of the hypotenuse is the square root of the sum of the squares of the other two sides.
Theres no evidence aginst it, and there wont be a single person out there who questions 'gravity'. Howevere creationism makes a lot more sense to me then evolutionism, my mind is going as far as seeing that apes and humans have similarities, suggesting that they have the same ancestors is well a logical twist of the mind, but telling me that a banana and a whale have the same ancestor. Well that sounds like a fairy tale to me :D.
First off, you're okay with the idea that bananas and whales are both made up of carbon and other elements, right? Many of which are the same ones, right? Furthermore, evolution doesn't necessarily state that bananas and whales have the same ancestor. Evolution simply states that bananas evolved from something, whales evolved from something, these somethings may or may not have been the same something millions of years ago.
(not to mention the big bang theory, which talks about nothing suddenly exploding =/ ever seen nothing explode?)
The Big Bang theory is independently viable of evolution. That is to say, one can be true without the other being true.
Secondly, the theory does not state that "nothing exploded into something".
Thirdly, the Biblical account of Creation is, well, nothing becoming something. Aren't the first few words of the bible "In the beginning, there was nothing"? Trying to discredit the big bang theory as "the universe coming out of nothing" and substitute that with "god created the universe out of nothing" is intellectually dishonest, not to mention flat-out false as the big bang theory doesn't say that.
It seems that a lot of your problem with scientific theories come from a lack of understanding of science. Take a high school/college biology class that explains this stuff well and you'll understand it better, and perhaps you won't be attempting to discredit science on things that are simply not what science is saying.
But have you considered the reasoning for why people even bother sharing their beliefs? A lot of Christians know they aren't likely going to be successful in sharing about Christ, yet they still do it anyway. So why do it? It's because many of them believe that there is something special about knowing who Christ is. It has changed the life of many people in this world. Criminals and killers becoming compassionate loving people... People that were once were so into money and thinking that the poor did it all to themselves becoming careful individuals that share their resources and time to those that need it. There have been so many transformations in character in this world because of these stories by what you consider "crazies". They want to share those stories of how one individual from 2000 years ago changed their life forever.
When you are affected by something of such great magnitude, you want to share it with the rest of the world. It's like if you got a dream job that paid you amazingly well and you got to have a lot of fun everyday. You're not going to be coming home and answering to your friends or your wife about your day as being, "Meh, it was alright," or how you got it as being, "I just got it. That's all." You're going to want to share the stories and the obstacles and ordeals that you may have went through in order to get it.
It's the same way with Christians sharing to people about Christ. They want to share the ordeals and stories that they went through with you.
(I do have to admit, some people are very bad at sharing the stories and as a result, people do shy away from it. I know I did for a long time when I kept seeing people around my high school and first couple of years of college walking around with sandwich boards or signs saying, "You're going to Hell!" It's pushes people away from knowing who Christ is. Some people just can't do it.)
Ok...so then as a christian think about this...you and I are having a conversation and you tell me something that I don't agree with. I tell you that the teachings of Islam tell me something different and that any other belief goes against everything I stand for. Now I may not be an extremist, but you...and don't say you won't in today's world...have already grouped me in with those that kill innocents to get my point across. You begin to persecute my beliefs by grouping them with those that blew up New York...even though I tell you that I don't agree with the violent nature of "those" extremists. It's too late...you have already grouped me in with the crazies....because that's what Human's do.
If I didn't say anything about my religion you would just think I'm a little wierd. But now you're on edge and you will watch the things you say around me. Reality sucks, but that is real!
As much as you love the teachings of christ...not everyone wants to here about them. Not everyone wants to associate the bible with everyday life. To talk about it constantly is annoying. Annoyance comes off as persecution in a lot of aspects. Those that aren't interested in christianity don't want to hear it applied to everyday life, ALL the time. I think that breasts are one of the greatest things on a woman, but if I associated them within every conversation I had....people would stop talking to me. I know that's extreme but it serves its purpose.:-/
"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
Although alot of people think evolutionism (most Ateists are evolutionists) isn't a belief, my opinion is that it is, theres no real proof for evolutionism, neither is there for any religions.
Congratulations, you just destroyed any credibility you might have had.
Don't take me wrong, I'm smart, and I was in fact a total Atheist before, but I'm beginning to doubt all sides. The fact is, I still don't believe in any religion or even the presence of a God, but I know for a fact that this all couldn't be created by evolution.
The reason? It's been a year since my ex left me and my feelings for her haven't changed at all. I love her more than anything in the entire world, even though she's in love with someone else and we don't even talk any more. I just know, at least inside myself, that all the love I feel can't possibly have come about naturally. Sure, science and the natural world might contain enough information and depth to kill anyone through sheer knowledge overload, but I know for a fact the love I feel is infinitely deeper than that could ever even hope to be.
There is no proof of evolution, on a completely unrelated note I caught the flu again this year. That can't be since I had it last year I am immune to it. You know its almost like the Influenza Virus is changing to better suit its environment to live. Still no proof of evolution.
Ok...so then as a christian think about this...you and I are having a conversation and you tell me something that I don't agree with. I tell you that the teachings of Islam tell me something different and that any other belief goes against everything I stand for. Now I may not be an extremist, but you...and don't say you won't in today's world...have already grouped me in with those that kill innocents to get my point across. You begin to persecute my beliefs by grouping them with those that blew up New York...even though I tell you that I don't agree with the violent nature of "those" extremists. It's too late...you have already grouped me in with the crazies....because that's what Humans do.
If I didn't say anything about my religion you would just think I'm a little weird. But now you're on edge and you will watch the things you say around me. Reality sucks, but that is real!
I don't know if you believe me, but you're gonna have to trust me on this. I probably wouldn't make the judgments that you have claimed, but I do see where you are going at with this and I know what you mean.
It is easy to make such judgments. Yes, it is part of human nature and I do agree with that. I wouldn't make just extreme thoughts as Islam means killing innocents though. I would maybe more subtle ones, like if I were playing soccer and someone decides to run me over when it was unnecessary, I'm sure I would probably think, "What an *******!" (Not going to lie about that). However, I won't deny that I won't agree with who you think God is versus who I think He is.
But to group people as being crazies or judging someone for their faith is something I've done less and less as I've followed Christianity. Like you said, it is part what makes us humans and because of it, it's easy to do so. But to become a follower and like Christ, it's to be able to not make those judgments and stereotypes that makes you more like Him. It's hard and to say I don't judge people at all would be a lie. I'm not perfect and won't be perfect. I do sin and I do confess to that, but that is why I strive to be like Christ and do what is not natural for humans (loving people unconditionally, showing mercy and grace to all even enemies, etc.).
The other thing is that you should remember is that just because someone makes a judgment, it does not mean it is set in stone forever. We have the ability to change and transform. Just because one person makes one quick judgment on someone does not mean that they can't change it later on in life. For example, I use to think that the only reason that the poor were poor in the first place was because they did it to themselves. Because of it, I never helped them. That view has changed and now, regardless of whatever circumstance, I usually try to help them out, whether I give them a few dollars or take them to a Subway nearby and buy them a sandwich. I know a lot of my Christian friends do the same.
As much as you love the teachings of christ...not everyone wants to here about them. Not everyone wants to associate the bible with everyday life. To talk about it constantly is annoying. Annoyance comes off as persecution in a lot of aspects. Those that aren't interested in christianity don't want to hear it applied to everyday life, ALL the time.
And I understand where you're coming from there. My suggestion to that is that if they keep frustrating you by talking to you about it constantly, just politely say, "Could we not talk about this please?" If they can't understand, well, give me their number and I'll talk to them about it. But just remember to be respectful about it and make sure they're respectful of your wishes as well.
But still remain open-minded and keep and open ear. They might say something that might be of interest or something that might be applicable to your life. Something everyone needs to do, whether Christian or non-Christian. We all desire to learn and envy for knowledge about life and everything about it.
I think that breasts are one of the greatest things on a woman, but if I associated them within every conversation I had....people would stop talking to me. I know that's extreme but it serves its purpose.
And I'm not going to deny that first part of that first statement. I agree with the second one as I'd probably tell you to be quiet after a while. The human body is an amazing and beautiful creation.
There is no proof of evolution, on a completely unrelated note I caught the flu again this year. That can't be since I had it last year I am immune to it. You know its almost like the Influenza Virus is changing to better suit its environment to live. Still no proof of evolution.
If you are going to disregard the theory of evolution, at least have a minimal understanding of it. That is not at all what evolution is.
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But to group people as being crazies or judging someone for their faith is something I've done less and less as I've followed Christianity. Like you said, it is part what makes us humans and because of it, it's easy to do so. But to become a follower and like Christ, it's to be able to not make those judgments and stereotypes that makes you more like Him. It's hard and to say I don't judge people at all would be a lie. I'm not perfect and won't be perfect. I do sin and I do confess to that, but that is why I strive to be like Christ and do what is not natural for humans (loving people unconditionally, showing mercy and grace to all even enemies, etc.).
The other thing is that you should remember is that just because someone makes a judgment, it does not mean it is set in stone forever. We have the ability to change and transform. Just because one person makes one quick judgment on someone does not mean that they can't change it later on in life. For example, I use to think that the only reason that the poor were poor in the first place was because they did it to themselves. Because of it, I never helped them. That view has changed and now, regardless of whatever circumstance, I usually try to help them out, whether I give them a few dollars or take them to a Subway nearby and buy them a sandwich. I know a lot of my Christian friends do the same.
You see here's where all my arguements with "good christians" come into effect. You say this...and many christians sit themselves on a pedestal above everyone else and look down their noses with this same view...and truely believe that only through Christ you can do this. That is where I get angry...I don't twist my life around christianity and I find this power to be as you just described through belief in myself and my family. Now I can say this because I am confidant in the way I live, and I find my strength in the things I surround myself around.....FAMILY. The things I brought into this world power the way I do things and the decisions I make. But I don't believe in GOD. I believe that the writings in the bible are a fictional interpretation of a factual life.
A majority of chirstians....not all, but most...actually view themselves as better than those that don't believe. I have an aunt that portrays action...and she doesn't think she is oppressive about it at all...she thinks she's right. But that is going to hold true for eveyone....I mean...I think I'm better than you because I've brought 3 lives into this world and raised them to be better than I am. That doen't mean it's true...its just my belief!:D
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
@strongbad56 - The fact that you feel the need to proclaim that you are a "christian" during any conversation just brings a negaive light to you as a person. I'm sorry to say that in today's times of overpowering religious groups, adding yourself to said groups puts people at bay. Because so many people in the US are chirstian, I pretty much just don't even think about it. But when I have a conversation with someone and they say to me, "...well, as a Christian I feel that the best way to ....." and then they proceed to tell me that the best way to do something is "blah" BECAUSE they are a christian. At that point I associate their beliefs with those idiots to the far right who want to take away "The Shield" from my viewing pleasure because it has side shots of boobies. Even though I may agree with their view...because they felt the need to proclaim their christianity within a conversation that really never called for it....I put them in a different group.
So actually, it isn't the fact that you are persecuted because you're a christian....you probably feel persecuted because you go out of your way to proclaim that you are a christian in coversations where it probably isn't necessary for you to do so. You see, it is always the proclaimation of your belief that gets you ousted. If you feel strongly about your belief....then who's business is it to know what that belief is? Unless you are specifically asked what you believe, I see no reason to throw it into the mix. Once you do that....no matter what anyone else's belief is....you get grouped in with the crazys! I'm sorry....but people as a whole are over-reactive.
Okay, I'm sorry, I think things went out of hand for me in this thread, mainly due to ChocoCid's remark, which I found very insulting. I felt like I had to defend Christianity after that, because what he said is pretty much the only thing that really makes me mad about atheists.
Let me get this clear. I do not go out of my way to proclaim that I am a Christian. All of my beliefs are not just because I am Christian, but because I have truly thought about them and come to those conclusions. I do not think that Christians are more persecuted than others, nor that are they very persecuted at all. But I think that everyone should admit that it is hard sometimes to be in any group, religious or not. Someone will always disagree with you or judge you, and many times that can be demeaning and insulting, and it hurts.
And jonnyjonski, please don't assume that I proclaim my religion everywhere I go. I did on this thread, but the topic is religion, so I think I was justified. I would never justify my beliefs by saying that I was Christian, and I would never assume that only Christians believe what I do. I have many atheist friends who have pretty much the same values as me. The only time I would start something by saying "As a Christian, I would say that..." is if the discussion was directly pertaining to Christianity, or what I was about to say would only apply to Christians (praying to God, reading the Bible, etc.).
Don't take me wrong, I'm smart, and I was in fact a total Atheist before, but I'm beginning to doubt all sides. The fact is, I still don't believe in any religion or even the presence of a God, but I know for a fact that this all couldn't be created by evolution.
The reason? It's been a year since my ex left me and my feelings for her haven't changed at all. I love her more than anything in the entire world, even though she's in love with someone else and we don't even talk any more. I just know, at least inside myself, that all the love I feel can't possibly have come about naturally. Sure, science and the natural world might contain enough information and depth to kill anyone through sheer knowledge overload, but I know for a fact the love I feel is infinitely deeper than that could ever even hope to be.
*Horseshoe_Hermit waits patiently for the day he can point to a scan of Ultima66's neurons and provide a materialistic account of his love and/or hand Ultima66 a pill which will intervene in his feeling of love.*
Also, slightly overboard on the poetry, dude. I think I'm bothered by comments such as yours in a similar way to that strongbad56 was bothered by ChocoCid's, since, as he said, "I feel like I have to defend [my core beliefs about existence]." (in his case, Christianity; in mine, materialist theory of mind)"
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The problem with talking about evolution is it usually degenerates into a left/right type conversation. Instead screaming "fascist militants" and "pansy tree-huggers" people scream "I didn't come from monkeys" and "blind creationists." One of the big problems of that discussion is ignorance. So many people think the theory of evolution means man came from monkeys. That's not true. Evolution simply means change. Now I don't believe that man came from monkeys, or that lightning zapped some material in some ocean and turned it into living proteins, but I do believe in natural selection ie that species change according to genetics. I am neither a "creationist" (in my definition, some one who tries to play religion as science) nor am I a "evolutionist" (someone who believes in the theory of life coming about randomly and than "evolving" into the myriad life forms we have today).
On another note, having said all that, I'm sure there are plenty of threads already discussing that topic. Are we starting to digress? It all seems to boil down to one point: ignorance. When people are ignorant of a religion, or of an atheists views, or of a scientific principle, that is when persecution occurs. So lets try to fight persecution by fighting ignorance, not each other.
Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with that. I do agree that BF's post was not worded in the best way, but believe it or not, it did have a point in it also. It was that things like was ChocoCid said are the reason that some Christians might feel persecuted. Some atheists are just as nasty and demeaning as the Religious Right, and even though there are a lot less of them, and maybe Christians aren't exactly persecuted, there are many people that have horrible, misguided feelings about Christians, especially on the internet.
True dat.
What do you mean by "harassment"? I think the OP's point was that on this site especially, the opinions of many Christians are either discarded or treated very badly just because they are coming from a Christian. And I didn't know that Christians enjoy tax breaks.
Another tru dat. There are alot of unnecessarily hateful posts toward Christianity on the net, and when understandibly angry christians defend them, albeit with ragely worded posts, they are treated as the stupid hatemongers.
Problem arises when a religion mandates proselytism, and/or has no truck with the concept of the separation of church and state. Coincidentally, these two precepts also make religions of that stripe most powerfull sociopolitically. Proselytism increases number of believers, and powerful contacts in government cement the influence of the religious elite.
Tru dat number three. This needs to stop, but there are very few things that can stop such a thing so entrenched in society.
theres no real proof for evolutionism, neither is there for any religions.
Now that comparison's just silly.
Congratulations, you just destroyed any credibility you might have had.
You have impecable timing for saying just the right sarcastic thing
You're right. I don't respect religion. I don't respect a belief system which has been used to justify mass killing, torture, subjugation of others, and has been (and still is) used to hold back knowledge by centuries, if not more. Why should I?
Hey now, not ALL religions have done those things, just some <hack><cough>
Five seconds into silence, our upper school director starts to pray, out loud, to us.
This is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a nice gesture, this is a school. The funny part is if you said anything about it, they'de probably just brush it off as "those aethiests just hatin' god again." This is where the real life persecution is, in casual situations. I must agree with the OP in the fact that Christians recieve alot of flack online. However, there is no way I can agree with what the discussion has evolved into, that Christians are persecuted in real life. Most non-christians tolerate christians and generally have no problems with the ones that are not shoving their beliefs down your throat (while in a minority, they do exist. I was at the "pagan" section of Borders the other day and got preached too by two.) There are some casual comments every so often, but the people that actively discriminate against Christians are in a flee-sized minority.
Is there a way to truly seperate church from state completely in this country at this state? I would love it, but it doesn't seem possible. The christian right has way too much power for how small a group it really is, and I'm sure most Christians would agree with me that something needs to be done about it.
However, problems arise in that Christianity has been around so long that it's ingrained in society. On the memorial day for VT, in a schoolwide meeting we were told that we would have a moment of silence. "Oh good," I thought. "A moment of silence, we can all respect the dead and do what we see fit and feel comfortable with about this whole thing." Five seconds into silence, our upper school director starts to pray, out loud, to us. I immediately look up, open my eyes and stare straight ahead for the rest of the time. The Muslims in the school, as well as all the other various religions we have represented were also staring straight ahead. Its disgusting that other religions can just be blatantly ignored because Christianity is supposedly in the majority. Having a moment of silence would have been perfectly all right for everyone present. The Christians could pray to God, the Muslims could pray to God, the Agnostics could sit and wonder what to do, and the Atheists could reflect. No problems at all. But when its just assumed that everyone will be okay with a Christian prayer, it seems like something isn't right.
Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with that. I do agree that BF's post was not worded in the best way, but believe it or not, it did have a point in it also. It was that things like was ChocoCid said are the reason that some Christians might feel persecuted. Some atheists are just as nasty and demeaning as the Religious Right, and even though there are a lot less of them, and maybe Christians aren't exactly persecuted, there are many people that have horrible, misguided feelings about Christians, especially on the internet.
Sorry, I don't know that phrase. But trust me, I disagree with many of the beliefs of the Religious Right, at least the political ones.
What do you mean by "harassment"? I think the OP's point was that on this site especially, the opinions of many Christians are either discarded or treated very badly just because they are coming from a Christian. And I didn't know that Christians enjoy tax breaks.
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If somebody felt persecuted by that, well...I'd suggest they go talk to certain Jewish octogenarians. On the other hand, BF's post had undertones of the video I linked.
no true Scotsman
I know you disagree with their beliefs. Nothing wrong with that.
Harassment is kind of what persecution entails.
Really? You'd have to give some evidence for that. Usually here, opinions are derided for having no solid basis.
Religious institutions (eg. churches) do.
But is that persecution or misunderstanding? I'm sorry, but when I think of religious persecution, I think of things like this. As Christians (yes, I am a Christian), we have broad freedom, even through the internet, to believe what we wish and worship how we wish without fear of retribution. Sure, some others may have harsh conceptions of what Christianity is based on the words and actions of people whom definitely do not speak for the beliefs of many of us. But before you turn on them, you have to ask yourself: do I ever act the same way towards others? Do I ever assume that an outspoken athiest is doing things just to destroy me or my religion instead of simply making statements which they believe to be true?
As do I, but Einstienmonkey is right. Not only that, but I don't think God would exactly approve of putting down another's beliefs and saying they're not really a Christian because you don't agree with their interpretation of things or their actions. You're certainly allowed to point out how their actions are inconsistent with the Bible or your view of Christianity, but to take it to the next step and declare them "un-Christian" is logically fallacious and morally tenuous.
I disagree with the first part - though I haven't been here long, I've been involved in religious discussions and haven't been treated poorly because of my religion (in fact, the treatment here is probably better than most boards I've ever been to). And churches are tax-exempt organizations; though honestly, that statement is a bit unfair considering that other secular non-profit organizations get the same tax breaks.
And yes, having a documentary about atheism without regarding any atheists is ridiculous. However, my computer's not good enough to play online videos, so I don't know just what they said.
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@strongbad56 - The fact that you feel the need to proclaim that you are a "christian" during any conversation just brings a negaive light to you as a person. I'm sorry to say that in today's times of overpowering religious groups, adding yourself to said groups puts people at bay. Because so many people in the US are chirstian, I pretty much just don't even think about it. But when I have a conversation with someone and they say to me, "...well, as a Christian I feel that the best way to ....." and then they proceed to tell me that the best way to do something is "blah" BECAUSE they are a christian. At that point I associate their beliefs with those idiots to the far right who want to take away "The Shield" from my viewing pleasure because it has side shots of boobies. Even though I may agree with their view...because they felt the need to proclaim their christianity within a conversation that really never called for it....I put them in a different group.
So actually, it isn't the fact that you are persecuted because you're a christian....you probably feel persecuted because you go out of your way to proclaim that you are a christian in coversations where it probably isn't necessary for you to do so. You see, it is always the proclaimation of your belief that gets you ousted. If you feel strongly about your belief....then who's business is it to know what that belief is? Unless you are specifically asked what you believe, I see no reason to throw it into the mix. Once you do that....no matter what anyone else's belief is....you get grouped in with the crazys! I'm sorry....but people as a whole are over-reactive.
Uh, no, it's not. It is denying what the other people are trying to push.
What the hell is "evolutionism"? Evolution is a scientific theory that has plenty of evidence to back it up. If you try to pull out the usual "it's just a theory" crap, let me remind you that gravity is a theory and the word "theory" means something different in the scientific purview.
You're right. I don't respect religion. I don't respect a belief system which has been used to justify mass killing, torture, subjugation of others, and has been (and still is) used to hold back knowledge by centuries, if not more. Why should I?
"Aggressive words" about a belief are not persecution of those who hold that belief. I am not calling for the eradication of churches. I am not calling for the destruction of bibles. I am not calling to round up Christians and put them in gas chambers. Pointing out the problems with Christianity and the lies spouted by some of the believers is not persecution. Christians are not being persecuted. Nobody is stopping you from believing what you want to believe. Nobody is punishing you for believing it. Shoot, nobody is stopping Christians from indoctrinating their children.
Again, pointing out lies and falsehood is not persecution. You are not being oppressed because of your religion.
Well, there are liberal Christians that are responding to that of the Religious Right. It's just difficult when many of the leaders drown out those voices, whether they're congregational leaders or political leaders. When you're in a position of such high power, some people choose to find ways to take advantage of it. The liberal Christians aren't going to get anywhere in the Republican party because of those that are already in that higher power. Christians that lack that compassion to all will side with those of higher power. At the same time, they won't get anywhere in the Democratic Party because they are assumed to be too conservative for the party. So there is no real place to go. So instead, other routes of action must be taken, which is to the rest of the world.
I know that in the Pacific Northwest, you constantly see a lot of compassion from Christians all over the place through their actions rather than their words. Feeding the poor, healing those that can't afford it, using their own personal funds and vacation time to go on mission trips all over the world, educating those by teaching them English, medical check-ups, as well as telling them the story of Christ. Those actions speak a lot louder on a personal level to those about what Christianity is all about.
Christians could just argue and debate with each other all day about translations of the Bible, but that is not the point of Christianity. The point is that there is hope in the world for those that feel that all is lost. There is someone out there in the world to help those that need it. To show love to everyone in this world because there is a God that loves us. By arguing with one another about such issues, we're wasting time, energy and not helping those that need it.
But have you considered the reasoning for why people even bother sharing their beliefs? A lot of Christians know they aren't likely going to be successful in sharing about Christ, yet they still do it anyway. So why do it? It's because many of them believe that there is something special about knowing who Christ is. It has changed the life of many people in this world. Criminals and killers becoming compassionate loving people... People that were once were so into money and thinking that the poor did it all to themselves becoming careful individuals that share their resources and time to those that need it. There have been so many transformations in character in this world because of these stories by what you consider "crazies". They want to share those stories of how one individual from 2000 years ago changed their life forever.
When you are affected by something of such great magnitude, you want to share it with the rest of the world. It's like if you got a dream job that paid you amazingly well and you got to have a lot of fun everyday. You're not going to be coming home and answering to your friends or your wife about your day as being, "Meh, it was alright," or how you got it as being, "I just got it. That's all." You're going to want to share the stories and the obstacles and ordeals that you may have went through in order to get it.
It's the same way with Christians sharing to people about Christ. They want to share the ordeals and stories that they went through with you.
(I do have to admit, some people are very bad at sharing the stories and as a result, people do shy away from it. I know I did for a long time when I kept seeing people around my high school and first couple of years of college walking around with sandwich boards or signs saying, "You're going to Hell!" It's pushes people away from knowing who Christ is. Some people just can't do it.)
"Pointing out that x is a lie" is not persecution.
Saying "X is true" is not cramming X down a person's throat.
Here, let me give you some examples of what I'm talking about:
The Religious Right in America is wanting to force their religion on everyone else by doing the following:
(A) Trying to outlaw things their religion says is bad- Gay marriage is a perfect example of this
(B) Forcing their religion into the government despite our First Amendment protection against such- see the National Motto circa the 1950s, the dollar bill, the pledge of allegiance, the crusade to put the ten commandments in courtrooms, trying to push prayer into the school, trying to get scientific theories they don't like kicked out of schools- in short, the general crusade to make America a "Christian Country".
(C) Trying to force anyone who's not a Christian in high-ranking public offices to "act Christian" - see the Muslim congressman this year that was lambasted by the Right because he wanted to swear in on a Koran
...
I could continue, but suffice it to say that the Religious Right is in fact trying to cram Christianity down everyone's throat.
THIS is what I'm referring to.
Want to go to church? Go ahead, I'm not going to stop you. But when you change our national motto to the unconstitutional "in god we trust" , when you put it all over our money, when you trample on my freedom in the name of your religion, I damn well will complain.
Ah, this explains it. "Evolutionism" is often used as a phrase by right-wing fundamentalists to try to portray evolution as a "religion" of sorts. Evolution isn't a religion. It's not a "faith". It is a scientific theory, and is the best explanation we have for the phenomena we've seen regarding speciation.
Don't take me wrong, I'm smart, and I was in fact a total Atheist before, but I'm beginning to doubt all sides. The fact is, I still don't believe in any religion or even the presence of a God, but I know for a fact that this all couldn't be created by evolution.
The reason? It's been a year since my ex left me and my feelings for her haven't changed at all. I love her more than anything in the entire world, even though she's in love with someone else and we don't even talk any more. I just know, at least inside myself, that all the love I feel can't possibly have come about naturally. Sure, science and the natural world might contain enough information and depth to kill anyone through sheer knowledge overload, but I know for a fact the love I feel is infinitely deeper than that could ever even hope to be.
Then you haven't been looking. They've done tons of experiments with fruit flies, moths, etc. They've found fossils of several transitional species.
Shoot, humans have even CAUSED evolution in the real world, not just in the laboratory. Look at how many breeds of dogs we've created by selective breeding.
That's not "proof" in the scientific/mathematical sense. It's an anecdote. Do it a hundred times and it becomes "evidence." It is not proof. A proof in the scientific/mathematical sense means basically that B is necessarily true given A. For instance, given a right angle in a triangle, and no other information, you can prove that the length of the hypotenuse is the square root of the sum of the squares of the other two sides.
First off, you're okay with the idea that bananas and whales are both made up of carbon and other elements, right? Many of which are the same ones, right? Furthermore, evolution doesn't necessarily state that bananas and whales have the same ancestor. Evolution simply states that bananas evolved from something, whales evolved from something, these somethings may or may not have been the same something millions of years ago.
The Big Bang theory is independently viable of evolution. That is to say, one can be true without the other being true.
Secondly, the theory does not state that "nothing exploded into something".
Thirdly, the Biblical account of Creation is, well, nothing becoming something. Aren't the first few words of the bible "In the beginning, there was nothing"? Trying to discredit the big bang theory as "the universe coming out of nothing" and substitute that with "god created the universe out of nothing" is intellectually dishonest, not to mention flat-out false as the big bang theory doesn't say that.
It seems that a lot of your problem with scientific theories come from a lack of understanding of science. Take a high school/college biology class that explains this stuff well and you'll understand it better, and perhaps you won't be attempting to discredit science on things that are simply not what science is saying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman
It's basically the name of a specific kind of logical fallacy.
Ok...so then as a christian think about this...you and I are having a conversation and you tell me something that I don't agree with. I tell you that the teachings of Islam tell me something different and that any other belief goes against everything I stand for. Now I may not be an extremist, but you...and don't say you won't in today's world...have already grouped me in with those that kill innocents to get my point across. You begin to persecute my beliefs by grouping them with those that blew up New York...even though I tell you that I don't agree with the violent nature of "those" extremists. It's too late...you have already grouped me in with the crazies....because that's what Human's do.
If I didn't say anything about my religion you would just think I'm a little wierd. But now you're on edge and you will watch the things you say around me. Reality sucks, but that is real!
As much as you love the teachings of christ...not everyone wants to here about them. Not everyone wants to associate the bible with everyday life. To talk about it constantly is annoying. Annoyance comes off as persecution in a lot of aspects. Those that aren't interested in christianity don't want to hear it applied to everyday life, ALL the time. I think that breasts are one of the greatest things on a woman, but if I associated them within every conversation I had....people would stop talking to me. I know that's extreme but it serves its purpose.:-/
Congratulations, you just destroyed any credibility you might have had.
So did you.
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I don't know if you believe me, but you're gonna have to trust me on this. I probably wouldn't make the judgments that you have claimed, but I do see where you are going at with this and I know what you mean.
It is easy to make such judgments. Yes, it is part of human nature and I do agree with that. I wouldn't make just extreme thoughts as Islam means killing innocents though. I would maybe more subtle ones, like if I were playing soccer and someone decides to run me over when it was unnecessary, I'm sure I would probably think, "What an *******!" (Not going to lie about that). However, I won't deny that I won't agree with who you think God is versus who I think He is.
But to group people as being crazies or judging someone for their faith is something I've done less and less as I've followed Christianity. Like you said, it is part what makes us humans and because of it, it's easy to do so. But to become a follower and like Christ, it's to be able to not make those judgments and stereotypes that makes you more like Him. It's hard and to say I don't judge people at all would be a lie. I'm not perfect and won't be perfect. I do sin and I do confess to that, but that is why I strive to be like Christ and do what is not natural for humans (loving people unconditionally, showing mercy and grace to all even enemies, etc.).
The other thing is that you should remember is that just because someone makes a judgment, it does not mean it is set in stone forever. We have the ability to change and transform. Just because one person makes one quick judgment on someone does not mean that they can't change it later on in life. For example, I use to think that the only reason that the poor were poor in the first place was because they did it to themselves. Because of it, I never helped them. That view has changed and now, regardless of whatever circumstance, I usually try to help them out, whether I give them a few dollars or take them to a Subway nearby and buy them a sandwich. I know a lot of my Christian friends do the same.
And I understand where you're coming from there. My suggestion to that is that if they keep frustrating you by talking to you about it constantly, just politely say, "Could we not talk about this please?" If they can't understand, well, give me their number and I'll talk to them about it. But just remember to be respectful about it and make sure they're respectful of your wishes as well.
But still remain open-minded and keep and open ear. They might say something that might be of interest or something that might be applicable to your life. Something everyone needs to do, whether Christian or non-Christian. We all desire to learn and envy for knowledge about life and everything about it.
And I'm not going to deny that first part of that first statement. I agree with the second one as I'd probably tell you to be quiet after a while. The human body is an amazing and beautiful creation.
If you are going to disregard the theory of evolution, at least have a minimal understanding of it. That is not at all what evolution is.
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I'm pretty sure he was trying to be sarcastic in an attempt to support evolution.
You see here's where all my arguements with "good christians" come into effect. You say this...and many christians sit themselves on a pedestal above everyone else and look down their noses with this same view...and truely believe that only through Christ you can do this. That is where I get angry...I don't twist my life around christianity and I find this power to be as you just described through belief in myself and my family. Now I can say this because I am confidant in the way I live, and I find my strength in the things I surround myself around.....FAMILY. The things I brought into this world power the way I do things and the decisions I make. But I don't believe in GOD. I believe that the writings in the bible are a fictional interpretation of a factual life.
A majority of chirstians....not all, but most...actually view themselves as better than those that don't believe. I have an aunt that portrays action...and she doesn't think she is oppressive about it at all...she thinks she's right. But that is going to hold true for eveyone....I mean...I think I'm better than you because I've brought 3 lives into this world and raised them to be better than I am. That doen't mean it's true...its just my belief!:D
I would like to apoligize to Argedracorius.
I need a new sarcasm detector. Man, I feel dumb.
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Okay, I'm sorry, I think things went out of hand for me in this thread, mainly due to ChocoCid's remark, which I found very insulting. I felt like I had to defend Christianity after that, because what he said is pretty much the only thing that really makes me mad about atheists.
Let me get this clear. I do not go out of my way to proclaim that I am a Christian. All of my beliefs are not just because I am Christian, but because I have truly thought about them and come to those conclusions. I do not think that Christians are more persecuted than others, nor that are they very persecuted at all. But I think that everyone should admit that it is hard sometimes to be in any group, religious or not. Someone will always disagree with you or judge you, and many times that can be demeaning and insulting, and it hurts.
And jonnyjonski, please don't assume that I proclaim my religion everywhere I go. I did on this thread, but the topic is religion, so I think I was justified. I would never justify my beliefs by saying that I was Christian, and I would never assume that only Christians believe what I do. I have many atheist friends who have pretty much the same values as me. The only time I would start something by saying "As a Christian, I would say that..." is if the discussion was directly pertaining to Christianity, or what I was about to say would only apply to Christians (praying to God, reading the Bible, etc.).
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Also, slightly overboard on the poetry, dude. I think I'm bothered by comments such as yours in a similar way to that strongbad56 was bothered by ChocoCid's, since, as he said, "I feel like I have to defend [my core beliefs about existence]." (in his case, Christianity; in mine, materialist theory of mind)"
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On another note, having said all that, I'm sure there are plenty of threads already discussing that topic. Are we starting to digress? It all seems to boil down to one point: ignorance. When people are ignorant of a religion, or of an atheists views, or of a scientific principle, that is when persecution occurs. So lets try to fight persecution by fighting ignorance, not each other.
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True dat.
Another tru dat. There are alot of unnecessarily hateful posts toward Christianity on the net, and when understandibly angry christians defend them, albeit with ragely worded posts, they are treated as the stupid hatemongers.
Tru dat number three. This needs to stop, but there are very few things that can stop such a thing so entrenched in society.
Now that comparison's just silly.
You have impecable timing for saying just the right sarcastic thing
Hey now, not ALL religions have done those things, just some <hack><cough>
This is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a nice gesture, this is a school. The funny part is if you said anything about it, they'de probably just brush it off as "those aethiests just hatin' god again." This is where the real life persecution is, in casual situations. I must agree with the OP in the fact that Christians recieve alot of flack online. However, there is no way I can agree with what the discussion has evolved into, that Christians are persecuted in real life. Most non-christians tolerate christians and generally have no problems with the ones that are not shoving their beliefs down your throat (while in a minority, they do exist. I was at the "pagan" section of Borders the other day and got preached too by two.) There are some casual comments every so often, but the people that actively discriminate against Christians are in a flee-sized minority.
Is there a way to truly seperate church from state completely in this country at this state? I would love it, but it doesn't seem possible. The christian right has way too much power for how small a group it really is, and I'm sure most Christians would agree with me that something needs to be done about it.
GAYMERS, the cause of, and solution to, all life's problems.