I've been a fan of the DC franchise for awhile, didn't watch it so much when I was little, but after watching the more recent series, Teen Titans, Young Justice, Green Lantern, etc. and the Batman movies I've looked at some of the background from comics (via various wiki's) and thought it might be something I could get into.
I'm not really sure where a good starting point would be since there are so many different branches in the franchise with so much background, though it would almost certainly be somewhere along Batman or Teen Titans/Raven.
Read Batman: The Long Halloween and Batman: Dark Victory. The Long Halloween is largely considered to be one of the best Batman stories ever written (it's my personal favorite) and it doesn't tie into normal continuity so you don't have to worry about knowing a bunch of back story stuff. Dark Victory is the sequel and is also really good. Both influenced the Nolan movies a good deal.
If you're interested in something similar for Superman, Superman For All Seasons is a great read.
Kingdom Come is also one of the best stories to come out of the DCU.
I've been a fan of the DC franchise for awhile, didn't watch it so much when I was little, but after watching the more recent series, Teen Titans, Young Justice, Green Lantern, etc. and the Batman movies I've looked at some of the background from comics (via various wiki's) and thought it might be something I could get into.
I'm not really sure where a good starting point would be since there are so many different branches in the franchise with so much background, though it would almost certainly be somewhere along Batman or Teen Titans/Raven.
Interesting that you specify Raven. Hmm. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the Batwoman series. You could read the ongoing series that's up to issue 22 or so right now. Alternately, you could "catch up" from the beginning with the Trade PaperBack (TPB) or hardcover collections. The character is both connected to and distinct from the Bat family (and larger DCU mythos). Very newbie friendly, I think.
If you want jump into the current DC Universe wholesale, just realize that it can be confusing and convoluted at times. One reason for this is DC's tendency to do line-wide reboots of their entire universe every generation. We're almost two years into the newest reboot right now. Most/all characters, including Bruce, have been changed in some way. Their histories are different from what you might have seen in adaptations (or wikis).
Now, don't be too intimidated. The new continuity is not impenetrable. Just prepare to scratch your head now and again. In essence, the changes were made to streamline the continuity, shorten the DCU timeline, and put all the fans (old and new) on equal footing in terms of what they know about the universe's history.
All the stories the other posters suggested, btw, are essentially non-canon now. You can still read/enjoy them, but just be aware that the events don't necessarily apply to the characters you'll see in current DC stories.
Batwoman, by the by, has remained largely unchanged by the reboot. (She's a fairly new character anyway.) Almost her stories are in canon, though a handful have been retconned to varying degrees.
Batman is roughly the same, though his timeline (and his partnerships) have been altered. Raven and the Teen Titans are drastically different, though. (The broad strokes of their storylines are similar to what came before, but the look, feel, and specifics are altered.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
You're in luck, because DC did a soft reboot recently, meaning with the exception of a few key details most of the books started over (while some, like Green Lantern, retained their relatively recent complicated continuity).
The other benefit is that they've gone day and date digital publishing, and you can get their old issues online.
I encourage you to get into Batman, you'll love it, but you should know ahead of time that there are other styles that are very different and most of the hardcore fans eventually graduate to something else.
That's not to say that you can't still enjoy Batman. There are a few Batman stories that are essentially the pinnacle of the artform. You've heard a few already, of course you could also look at The Killing Joke or The Dark Knight Returns.
I myself read X-Men #21 as my first comic book and I just started collecting a few X-Men titles again. Superheroes are in many ways the best.
But I still want to let you know that there are other things out there. Death: The High Cost of Living is a DC Universe comic that is an offshoot of the critically acclaimed Sandman comics written by Neil Gaiman (of Stardust, Coraline and others)
The Walking Dead is an awesome comic book.
The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles original comic run is really awesome.
There are cool Star Wars comics.
A personal favorite of mine is Usagi Yojimbo.
Then once you have some background you can start to fully appreciate Watchmen. That comic is so good that you will enjoy it no matter how much you know about comics but if you know a bit about the industry's history, the history of recognizable characters and even the way that creators' rights have been trampled on you'll start to recognize those themes within the story. It's multi-layered like a mega onion.
There's also stuff that falls increasingly far away from the mainstream such as Maus by Art Spiegelman which tells the story of the author's father during World War 2. A polish jew who survived the holocaust. It won the Pulitzer Prize in 1992.
And of course there's the Japanese comics. They have mainstream and alternative comics as well and they have developed a different storytelling language in parallel with our own. As a result they have their own unique flavor which many people enjoy and you might too. An extremely good modern example is Death Note. Don't be afraid to pick that up. It is balls to the wall intense.
You could read stuff like Naruto and One Piece of course. They have their own brand of charm.
My personal recommendation to you is to read Blade of the Immortal. This is another comic that features a fantastic craftsman and it's notable because the main character bears many similarities to a popular American character - Wolverine.
The story is set in feudal Japan - a historical setting but one that is lightened slightly by the character's language which is very modern rather than the formal polite language that you would expect given the time period.
Manji - the protagonist - is a Ronin (masterless Samurai) who was cursed by an old crone with something called the Kessen Chu or 'blood worms'. These are literal worms that live in his blood and heal him extremely quickly. The premise is that since he was a bad man who killed 100 good men his life will be extended until he kills 1000 evil men in atonement.
Manji fights with all kinds of sharp weapons against other tough guys who also have sharp weapons and there are tons of gruesome battles. Manji usually loses an arm or a foot or something (which he puts back on as soon as the fight is over)
He even sort of looks like Wolverine. It's cool I assure you.
You can still find the original TMNT comics in the form of hardback coffee table omnibuses. The new series by IDW is also good. If you want Nolan's Batman in comic form, get Year One, The Killing Joke, The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Volume 1 of Knightfall, No Man's Land, and The Dark KNight Returns. Hellboy's worth reading if you like pulp fantasy/sci-fi/horror.
If you want Nolan's Batman in comic form, get The Killing Joke, Dark Victory, Volume 1 of Knightfall, No Man's Land
Whilst I understand that some of these were stated to be influences, the vast majority of the material you're mentioning has almost nothing in common with the Nolan trilogy. They're still cool stories, (with the possible exception of No Man's,) but completely their own thing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
The current "New 52" reboot has caught a lot of flak, and the Teen Titans especially seem to be controversial. I don't read the book myself, so I can't speak on that personally, but you might want to look at reviews before you buy into it. Scott Snyder's run on Batman, however, has been near-universally praised. And I do read that one, and can say that it is indeed excellent. (High hopes for his Superman Unchained!)
Whilst I understand that some of these were stated to be influences, the vast majority of the material you're mentioning has almost nothing in common with the Nolan trilogy. They're still cool stories, (with the possible exception of No Man's,) but completely their own thing.
Are the Nolan movies pure adaptations of these comics? Of course not.
Are the Nolan movies heavily inspiredby these comics? YES.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
1 word: Preacher, OK a few more words. Epic long story of a preacher who can hear the word of God, and his Irish vampire buddy running from Death, who is an old fashioned cowboy. Yeah it's that good
I'd recommend Sandman, it has a different style of writing and is very deep for the comic medium. A good portion of hardcore comic fans will recommend it and most people that read comic books will at least have heard of the series. It even uses the DC universe as it's backdrop so you will be pleasantly surprised in parts of the comics when some random DC character makes a small and nonflashy entrance.
Whilst I understand that some of these were stated to be influences, the vast majority of the material you're mentioning has almost nothing in common with the Nolan trilogy. They're still cool stories, (with the possible exception of No Man's,) but completely their own thing.
Their connections with Nolan's trilogy are pretty tight, actually. Off the top of my head:
Year One: A brief explanation of Batman's origins with Batman's first shot at being Batman. It ended with him getting pretty banged up, like how Batman got banged up running from Gordon in BB (not to mentioned getting pwned by Scarecrow in their first encounter). Flass was an antagonist in both mediums.
The Long Halloween: A crime-epic that involves Batman, Gordon, and Dent teaming up to take down Falcone's mob. Compare that to The Dark Knight, where the trio went to take down the last of Gotham's mob bosses.
The Killing Joke: Joker was set on destroying Gordon in the comic book; that was adapted in The Dark Knight, in the form of Joker's attempts to break Harvey Dent.
Dark Victory: I'll give you that--this volume doesn't seem to be closely related to the Nolan trilogy aside from Two-Face's rampage. I suppose you could cite Batman's ferocity from the beginning of the comic as inspiration for the murderous rage that Joker instilled in Batman in Act II/III of The Dark Knight.
Knightfall: Bane's origin of being born in a prison was carried into the Nolan trilogy, and modified so that the prison was a "Nolanized" Lazarus Pit. Osito even appears in The Dark Knight Rises, played by Marion Cotillard. Then there's the adaption of Bane breaking Batman.
No Man's Land: Bane's men destroying the entraces to Gotham in The Dark Knight Rises, sealing off the city. More plausible than the government cutting off access to Gotham as in No Man's Land. The threat of a nuke being set off on American soil was the deterrent that kept the government from actively marching into Gotham in The Dark Knight Rises (maintained the No Man's Land feel).
So each volume is pretty closely linked to the Nolan trilogy, except for Dark Victory. I didn't find any particularly re-readable, except for No Man's Land (if you can get past the excuse for the army not just putting down the mess in Gotham).
Their connections with Nolan's trilogy are pretty tight, actually. Off the top of my head:
Let me just start off by saying that nitpicking over this is not the point of this thread, and not particularly constructive. My only point with my reply was that a person reading the majority of the stories recommended would not necessarily get a "Nolan feel" from them, despite whatever similarities they may arguably have with the films.
Year One
Don't know why you're mentioning this since I specifically excluded it. Year One's influence on Begins is well documented and beyond reproach. I'd never dispute that.
The Long Halloween: A crime-epic that involves Batman, Gordon, and Dent teaming up to take down Falcone's mob. Compare that to The Dark Knight, where the trio went to take down the last of Gotham's mob bosses.
Pretty broad strokes there. Besides this (and Harvey becoming Two-Face), how are they similar? They aren't. Harvey's character and downfall are both overly emphasized in the film, whereas in the comics his story is just one of many subplots. Joker is the focus of TDK, the mob play like afterthoughts.
When the look at the specifics, it's clear the stories don't really have a ton in common. Reducing them to a broad-strokes summary and saying they're alike doesn't allay this. I can reduce the Avengers film and the Avengers #1 comic to the same broad-strokes summary, but they're not even close to the same story. (Alternately, I could say it's much akin to vol. 1 of the Ultimates. Still doesn't wash.)
The Killing Joke: Joker was set on destroying Gordon in the comic book; that was adapted in The Dark Knight, in the form of Joker's attempts to break Harvey Dent.
Features a seasoned version of the Joker who is well known by all involved. Instead of debuting, he's escaping Arkham and going on a sort of Twilight offensive. The setting is completely different (the city plays only a minor role), his personality, motivations and relationships are all different. Basically, the whole story is different from beginning to end, right down to the themes.
TDK Joker wants to make Gotham at large destroy itself. Turning Harvey psychotic, making the passenger's of cruise ships complacent in mass murder, etc.
KJ Joker just wants to see if any man can turn nuits like he did. It's far more personal here. If Gordon cracks, it proves that he's no better (and Joker's no worse). Because he does, Joker is left to wrestle with the fact that he's a weaker man in terms of his morals/sanity.
Dark Victory: I'll give you that--this volume doesn't seem to be closely related to the Nolan trilogy aside from Two-Face's rampage.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Saying that stories are markedly similar because they have one or two details in common is a disservice to the complexity of both.
Knightfall: Bane's origin of being born in a prison was carried into the Nolan trilogy, and modified so that the prison was a "Nolanized" Lazarus Pit. Osito even appears in The Dark Knight Rises, played by Marion Cotillard. Then there's the adaption of Bane breaking Batman.
I'll give you Knightfall, part 1. Tons of differences, but enough similarities that I can justify calling it a clear inspiration. The biggest similarity to me is that Bane releases the Arkham patients. Without that, it's only major similarity is Bane's origin (which it takes huge liberties with).
No Man's Land: Bane's men destroying the entraces to Gotham in The Dark Knight Rises, sealing off the city. More plausible than the government cutting off access to Gotham as in No Man's Land. The threat of a nuke being set off on American soil was the deterrent that kept the government from actively marching into Gotham in The Dark Knight Rises (maintained the No Man's Land feel).
No Man's Land was also a multi-issue event that had years of fallout and ties to the entire, extended Batfamily? (Not to mention the greater DCU). I'm sorry, but I just can't buy them as being related to each other. just feels like a reach. I'd see the "closed off and hopeless" theme of Rises as more akin to Begins than NML.
So each volume is pretty closely linked to the Nolan trilogy
Except they're not, as I've noted. In reality, they're just stories that Goyer and the Nolan's acknowledged as informing their vision. Details are lifted here and there, but the stories are largely unlike the finished films. Your mistake in essence is equating "acknowledgement of (possible) influences" with "crediting stories that the movies were directly based on".
I'm sure if you asked him, Goyer would say that Byrne's Post-Crisis run on Superman influenced the Man of Steel film. To say that said film is largely based on those comics, however, is a reach.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Edward, you pretty much proved my point. The Nolan trilogy is an adaption that is extremely close to the source material. Not an exact replica of the source. The only comic film I know of that is supposedly a spot-on replica of the comic is 300. The films are a perfection of the imperfect plotlines you have in the comics, such as underdeveloped Dent and Bane being one-note in Knightfall, or the sillyness of No Man's Land being tied to the DCU.
Edward, you pretty much proved my point. The Nolan trilogy is an adaption that is extremely close to the source material. Not an exact replica of the source. The only comic film I know of that is supposedly a spot-on replica of the comic is 300. The films are a perfection of the imperfect plotlines you have in the comics, such as underdeveloped Dent and Bane being one-note in Knightfall, or the sillyness of No Man's Land being tied to the DCU.
Harvey Dent is hardly underdeveloped in TLH. In Year One? Maybe, but not under the pen of Jeph Loeb. The Nolan Dent is overexposed and over-emphasized. His downfall is a foregone conclusion, so the idea that it's shocking or has any particular pathos has never jibed with me.
Comics Bane has far more depth than Nolan Bane. The film version is just Talia's tool. She uses him not unlike how her father used the Asian imposter(s) in the first film.
Comics Bane is a genius who ultimately overcomes nearly every challenge before him. He answers to no one. He's the villainous equivalent of Doc Savage (per his creator, Chuck Dixon). And best of all, his story stands as one of the few times when Batman is beaten without being jobbed.
To my way of thinking, Nolan's Bane only manages to be a competent rendition, not a full adaptation and certainly not an improvement.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
you could look into Oni Press's western/supernatural series Sixth Gun if you're looking to branch out of the superhero genre.
Image recently has put out a lot of good books- Bomb Queen by Jimmie Robinson is one that turns the superhero genre on it's head- by being unabashedly about a supervillain who runs her own city- no heroes allowed. Explosives, gratuitous violence, profanity, and the boob shot.
Dynamo 5 by Jay Faerber is about five (of an unknown number) bastard children of a fallen hero learning the truth, gaining powers, and defending the city their collective father did- and trying to get along.
Skull*Kickers is, as writer Jim Zub claims, a "buddy-cop movie in a fantasy setting." A mercenary, a dwarf, and recently an Elf do small jobs that snowball into big events. From an assassination plot, to battling a sea monster aboard a pirate ship- nothing ever goes right.
let's not forget Robert Kirkman's books- Invincible & the Walking Dead.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
Harvey Dent is hardly underdeveloped in TLH. In Year One? Maybe, but not under the pen of Jeph Loeb. The Nolan Dent is overexposed and over-emphasized. His downfall is a foregone conclusion, so the idea that it's shocking or has any particular pathos has never jibed with me.
Comics Bane has far more depth than Nolan Bane. The film version is just Talia's tool. She uses him not unlike how her father used the Asian imposter(s) in the first film.
Comics Bane is a genius who ultimately overcomes nearly every challenge before him. He answers to no one. He's the villainous equivalent of Doc Savage (per his creator, Chuck Dixon). And best of all, his story stands as one of the few times when Batman is beaten without being jobbed.
To my way of thinking, Nolan's Bane only manages to be a competent rendition, not a full adaptation and certainly not an improvement.
I don't see it in Knightfall, Edward. What comics should I look for to get a fuller picture of Bane's character? I liked Bane in the film and wouldn't be adverse to learning more about him.
Film Bane and Bruce mirror one another. Both were rescued from a prison by Ra's Al Ghul. One was chosen by Ra's to be his heir, the other cast out. The similarities between Bane and Bruce, and some similarities between Bane and Ra's Al Ghul, are what set film Bane apart from his comic counterpart and present a more three dimensional character.
I have already mentioned the first major similarity between Bane and Bruce: their origins. Bane also mirrors Batman, in that he accomplishes the goal Bruce set out to accomplish as the Batman. In doing so, Bane manages to succeed where Ra's Al Ghul failed in Batman Begins. Bruce created Batman as a symbol to inspire the citizenry of Gotham to fight back against the corrupt elements in the city's infrastructure. That fight was largely waged by the Trio in The Dark Knight, and the victory maintained by the Dent Act in the 8 years between The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises. However, this was a victory achieved through a lie. If the bureacracy knew that the man who inspired the Dent Act was a murderer, the legislation wouldn't have gone through. If by some chance it did go though, there'd be citizens protesting the glorification of Two-Face's murders.
Bane managed to inspire the citizens of Gotham to rise up against a city whose peace was maintained through the kind of corruption Batman was meant to eliminate. There's also the fact that jobs were scarce in Gotham at the time of TDKR's beginning, which Bane used to further incite the citizens who joined his revolution. In this way, Bane has succeeded where Batman ultimately failed: moving the citizens to root out corruption.
Recall in Batman Begins that Ra's wanted the world to watch Gotham tear itself apart in a fear toxin-induced frenzy. Unfortunately for Ra's, his plan was somewhat curtailed by access to the island with Arkham Asylum being cut off by the GPD. Sure, some of the gas did explode from manholes in Gotham Proper, but the plan was put down before much could come of it. Bane didn't need fear gas to show Gotham's true face; he simply presented the current situation--the Dent Act, and the lie it was built on--as it was and gave the people the means to act. In other words, the Gothamites engaging in the revolution, rounding up the upper class citizens, and the kangaroo courts were lucid rather than drugged.
The similarities between Bane's and Ras' plots aren't unintentional: recall Bane's mannerisms throughout the film and lines in the sewer fight. In Batman Begins, there were a few scenes where Ra's grasped the lapels of his suit. Bane imitates him in TDKR, in the beginning of the sewer fight as he approaches Batman prior to the fight's beginning. The same lapel-grip is present scene where Bane marches from city hall to see the GPD's advance. Two scenes from the sewer fight give us insight into Bane's admiration for Ra's Al Ghul and desire to surpass Ra's as a leader of the League of Shadows: the look in Bane's eyes after Batman makes a comment about Bane having been "cast out by a gang of psychopaths" and the rapid volley of hits Bane delivers in response to the line. The second key scene from this fight is where Bane declares: "I am the League of Shadows, and I am here to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny!" The fact that Bane was cast out by Ra's, and the scope of Bane's plan (in terms of showing the world the corruption within Gotham-the exposure of the Dent Act, and in the people who decided to go through with the revolution) indicate that Bane returned to Gotham to finish Ra's work and succeed where the old master-Ra's Al Ghul-failed.
Talia's motives are simpler than Bane's, but she does play a crucial role in the film as a representation of what Bruce could've become if he dwelt on his parent's death. This is apparent in Talia's statement of purpose: "I honor my father by finishing his work." Thus breaking Bruce, and jetting him to the "Lazarus" Pit, was entirely Bane's idea. Talia had Bruce at her mercy in Wayne Manor. If she were worried about simply killing him, she could've taken the opportunity. In order to use the clean energy project as a weapon, she needed Bruce on her side. Afterward, she could've killed him on the spot.
Thus Bane and Talia were their own people, working to fulfill their individual goals. In doing so, both are foils to Bruce: Bane as the man Bruce could've been if he accepted Ra's offer to become heir to the League of Shadows, and Talia as the person Bruce could've become if he obssessed over avenging his parent's death. On a final note, a tool doesn't disobey the wielder as Bane did after Talia turned her back on him in city hall.
I don't see it in Knightfall, Edward. What comics should I look for to get a fuller picture of Bane's character? I liked Bane in the film and wouldn't be adverse to learning more about him.
Gotta read the new(ish) collected edition which includes his origin (the Vengeance of Bane micro-series). Batman: Knightfall, Vol. 1 (includes all the material collected in 1993s Batman: Knightfall, Part One: Broken Bat and Batman: Knightfall, Part Two: Who Rules the Night with the addition of Vengeance of Bane, 640 pages, paperback 2012, ISBN 978-1401233792)
Just understand that the comics Bane is a different animal. He's not defined by his relationships to other characters so much as his unwavering ambition and triumphs. He's ironically part of an era that's now much maligned by fans (the 90s), and the type of story he was created for would normally turn me off. However, Dixon does such smart, respectful work with him and Bruce that I'm able to look passed all that.
Really, I'd never suggest reading any comic for its debatable resemblance to a Nolan film (my original point). They're just too different by their nature.
Back on point, I do think that many of the stories mentioned thus far are worth a look, but it's tough making what amount be shot-in-the-dark suggestions for the OP. Hopefully at least some of them are in the vein of what he was looking for.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Gotta read the new(ish) collected edition which includes his origin (the Vengeance of Bane micro-series). Batman: Knightfall, Vol. 1 (includes all the material collected in 1993s Batman: Knightfall, Part One: Broken Bat and Batman: Knightfall, Part Two: Who Rules the Night with the addition of Vengeance of Bane, 640 pages, paperback 2012, ISBN 978-1401233792)
Just understand that the comics Bane is a different animal. He's not defined by his relationships to other characters so much as his unwavering ambition and triumphs. He's ironically part of an era that's now much maligned by fans (the 90s), and the type of story he was created for would normally turn me off. However, Dixon does such smart, respectful work with him and Bruce that I'm able to look passed all that.
Really, I'd never suggest reading any comic for its debatable resemblance to a Nolan film (my original point). They're just too different by their nature.
Back on point, I do think that many of the stories mentioned thus far are worth a look, but it's tough making what amount be shot-in-the-dark suggestions for the OP. Hopefully at least some of them are in the vein of what he was looking for.
I liked the concept behind the character of Azrael, but the execution was a bit off. Bringing myself back on topic, Batman: Hush and Heart of Hush were entertaining. The resolution to Hush wasn't my cup of tea, but the addition to the storyline in Heart of Hush makes up for it. In fact, if you like the Knightfall plot, OP, you'd like Hush. They were both very similar.
Outside of Batman, I can't recommend Hellboy enough. If you don't mind dipping into manga, Kentaro Miura's Berserk is a great horror/fantasy manga with a "dark" and "gritty" feel. Gritty being realistic to the timeperiod it is inspired by, and dark being the overall feel of helplessness in the 1st 14 or so graphic novels. There were plenty of pages where I'd finish and think "He (Miura) isn't gonna go where I think he is--" and he does; the man's not afraid of being gruesome where appropriate. That isn't the selling point, though. The hero, Guts, has an excellent backstory and personality.
I liked the concept behind the character of Azrael, but the execution was a bit off. Bringing myself back on topic, Batman: Hush and Heart of Hush were entertaining. The resolution to Hush wasn't my cup of tea, but the addition to the storyline in Heart of Hush makes up for it. In fact, if you like the Knightfall plot, OP, you'd like Hush. They were both very similar.
Outside of Batman, I can't recommend Hellboy enough. If you don't mind dipping into manga, Kentaro Miura's Berserk is a great horror/fantasy manga with a "dark" and "gritty" feel. Gritty being realistic to the timeperiod it is inspired by, and dark being the overall feel of helplessness in the 1st 14 or so graphic novels. There were plenty of pages where I'd finish and think "He (Miura) isn't gonna go where I think he is--" and he does; the man's not afraid of being gruesome where appropriate. That isn't the selling point, though. The hero, Guts, has an excellent backstory and personality.
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa! Berserk is some strong stuff to recommend there, Karlov. Let's remember that not everyone is ready for (or even interested in) that type of material.
As a way of gauging one's willingness to delve into the darker, more gruesome side of manga, I might recommend Death Note. From there, one can ease their way into the strong stuff, with Berserk being a possibility somewhere down the line.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
What SPECIFICALLY are you interested in? Just DC stuff you have a basis of comparison for in recent animated series? Anything else from DC? Any Marvel? Do you want any nonsuperhero title recommendations, 'cause I got a LOT available.
Interesting that you specify Raven. Hmm. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the Batwoman series. You could read the ongoing series that's up to issue 22 or so right now. Alternately, you could "catch up" from the beginning with the Trade PaperBack (TPB) or hardcover collections. The character is both connected to and distinct from the Bat family (and larger DCU mythos). Very newbie friendly, I think.
Not really. I was rebuffed from the series at first because, while it was well-written and uniquely illustrated, it was fairly obtuse. I skimmed through the rest of the first story arc, found it good, and then picked up a trade from pre-52 times at the behest of my local shop's clerk: Batwoman Elegy. If you go with Batwoman, this is a good place to start before getting into the ongoing series proper. But wherever you do start, do not knock Kate Kane. She is superb.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm not really sure where a good starting point would be since there are so many different branches in the franchise with so much background, though it would almost certainly be somewhere along Batman or Teen Titans/Raven.
WURMiraclesRWU
UBRCruel ControlRBU
If you're having fun, I'm not.
If you're interested in something similar for Superman, Superman For All Seasons is a great read.
Kingdom Come is also one of the best stories to come out of the DCU.
I was a fan of the no mans land series and hush.
if you're used to the DC world, the superman/batman series is good too. Superman/batman: supergirl arc has especially gorgeous art.
I could never really get into Marvel. Dunno why. Different style of storytelling I suppose.
Interesting that you specify Raven. Hmm. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the Batwoman series. You could read the ongoing series that's up to issue 22 or so right now. Alternately, you could "catch up" from the beginning with the Trade PaperBack (TPB) or hardcover collections. The character is both connected to and distinct from the Bat family (and larger DCU mythos). Very newbie friendly, I think.
If you want jump into the current DC Universe wholesale, just realize that it can be confusing and convoluted at times. One reason for this is DC's tendency to do line-wide reboots of their entire universe every generation. We're almost two years into the newest reboot right now. Most/all characters, including Bruce, have been changed in some way. Their histories are different from what you might have seen in adaptations (or wikis).
Now, don't be too intimidated. The new continuity is not impenetrable. Just prepare to scratch your head now and again. In essence, the changes were made to streamline the continuity, shorten the DCU timeline, and put all the fans (old and new) on equal footing in terms of what they know about the universe's history.
All the stories the other posters suggested, btw, are essentially non-canon now. You can still read/enjoy them, but just be aware that the events don't necessarily apply to the characters you'll see in current DC stories.
Batwoman, by the by, has remained largely unchanged by the reboot. (She's a fairly new character anyway.) Almost her stories are in canon, though a handful have been retconned to varying degrees.
Batman is roughly the same, though his timeline (and his partnerships) have been altered. Raven and the Teen Titans are drastically different, though. (The broad strokes of their storylines are similar to what came before, but the look, feel, and specifics are altered.)
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
The other benefit is that they've gone day and date digital publishing, and you can get their old issues online.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
That's not to say that you can't still enjoy Batman. There are a few Batman stories that are essentially the pinnacle of the artform. You've heard a few already, of course you could also look at The Killing Joke or The Dark Knight Returns.
I myself read X-Men #21 as my first comic book and I just started collecting a few X-Men titles again. Superheroes are in many ways the best.
But I still want to let you know that there are other things out there. Death: The High Cost of Living is a DC Universe comic that is an offshoot of the critically acclaimed Sandman comics written by Neil Gaiman (of Stardust, Coraline and others)
The Walking Dead is an awesome comic book.
The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles original comic run is really awesome.
There are cool Star Wars comics.
A personal favorite of mine is Usagi Yojimbo.
Then once you have some background you can start to fully appreciate Watchmen. That comic is so good that you will enjoy it no matter how much you know about comics but if you know a bit about the industry's history, the history of recognizable characters and even the way that creators' rights have been trampled on you'll start to recognize those themes within the story. It's multi-layered like a mega onion.
There's also stuff that falls increasingly far away from the mainstream such as Maus by Art Spiegelman which tells the story of the author's father during World War 2. A polish jew who survived the holocaust. It won the Pulitzer Prize in 1992.
And of course there's the Japanese comics. They have mainstream and alternative comics as well and they have developed a different storytelling language in parallel with our own. As a result they have their own unique flavor which many people enjoy and you might too. An extremely good modern example is Death Note. Don't be afraid to pick that up. It is balls to the wall intense.
You could read stuff like Naruto and One Piece of course. They have their own brand of charm.
My personal recommendation to you is to read Blade of the Immortal. This is another comic that features a fantastic craftsman and it's notable because the main character bears many similarities to a popular American character - Wolverine.
The story is set in feudal Japan - a historical setting but one that is lightened slightly by the character's language which is very modern rather than the formal polite language that you would expect given the time period.
Manji - the protagonist - is a Ronin (masterless Samurai) who was cursed by an old crone with something called the Kessen Chu or 'blood worms'. These are literal worms that live in his blood and heal him extremely quickly. The premise is that since he was a bad man who killed 100 good men his life will be extended until he kills 1000 evil men in atonement.
Manji fights with all kinds of sharp weapons against other tough guys who also have sharp weapons and there are tons of gruesome battles. Manji usually loses an arm or a foot or something (which he puts back on as soon as the fight is over)
He even sort of looks like Wolverine. It's cool I assure you.
Well good luck. I hope you enjoy.
Whilst I understand that some of these were stated to be influences, the vast majority of the material you're mentioning has almost nothing in common with the Nolan trilogy. They're still cool stories, (with the possible exception of No Man's,) but completely their own thing.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (IDW Series)
The Walking Dead
Invincible (Great Superhero comic from the writer of the Walking Dead)
Hawkeye
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Are the Nolan movies pure adaptations of these comics? Of course not.
Are the Nolan movies heavily inspired by these comics? YES.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Their connections with Nolan's trilogy are pretty tight, actually. Off the top of my head:
Year One: A brief explanation of Batman's origins with Batman's first shot at being Batman. It ended with him getting pretty banged up, like how Batman got banged up running from Gordon in BB (not to mentioned getting pwned by Scarecrow in their first encounter). Flass was an antagonist in both mediums.
The Long Halloween: A crime-epic that involves Batman, Gordon, and Dent teaming up to take down Falcone's mob. Compare that to The Dark Knight, where the trio went to take down the last of Gotham's mob bosses.
The Killing Joke: Joker was set on destroying Gordon in the comic book; that was adapted in The Dark Knight, in the form of Joker's attempts to break Harvey Dent.
Dark Victory: I'll give you that--this volume doesn't seem to be closely related to the Nolan trilogy aside from Two-Face's rampage. I suppose you could cite Batman's ferocity from the beginning of the comic as inspiration for the murderous rage that Joker instilled in Batman in Act II/III of The Dark Knight.
Knightfall: Bane's origin of being born in a prison was carried into the Nolan trilogy, and modified so that the prison was a "Nolanized" Lazarus Pit. Osito even appears in The Dark Knight Rises, played by Marion Cotillard. Then there's the adaption of Bane breaking Batman.
No Man's Land: Bane's men destroying the entraces to Gotham in The Dark Knight Rises, sealing off the city. More plausible than the government cutting off access to Gotham as in No Man's Land. The threat of a nuke being set off on American soil was the deterrent that kept the government from actively marching into Gotham in The Dark Knight Rises (maintained the No Man's Land feel).
So each volume is pretty closely linked to the Nolan trilogy, except for Dark Victory. I didn't find any particularly re-readable, except for No Man's Land (if you can get past the excuse for the army not just putting down the mess in Gotham).
Let me just start off by saying that nitpicking over this is not the point of this thread, and not particularly constructive. My only point with my reply was that a person reading the majority of the stories recommended would not necessarily get a "Nolan feel" from them, despite whatever similarities they may arguably have with the films.
Don't know why you're mentioning this since I specifically excluded it. Year One's influence on Begins is well documented and beyond reproach. I'd never dispute that.
Pretty broad strokes there. Besides this (and Harvey becoming Two-Face), how are they similar? They aren't. Harvey's character and downfall are both overly emphasized in the film, whereas in the comics his story is just one of many subplots. Joker is the focus of TDK, the mob play like afterthoughts.
When the look at the specifics, it's clear the stories don't really have a ton in common. Reducing them to a broad-strokes summary and saying they're alike doesn't allay this. I can reduce the Avengers film and the Avengers #1 comic to the same broad-strokes summary, but they're not even close to the same story. (Alternately, I could say it's much akin to vol. 1 of the Ultimates. Still doesn't wash.)
Features a seasoned version of the Joker who is well known by all involved. Instead of debuting, he's escaping Arkham and going on a sort of Twilight offensive. The setting is completely different (the city plays only a minor role), his personality, motivations and relationships are all different. Basically, the whole story is different from beginning to end, right down to the themes.
TDK Joker wants to make Gotham at large destroy itself. Turning Harvey psychotic, making the passenger's of cruise ships complacent in mass murder, etc.
KJ Joker just wants to see if any man can turn nuits like he did. It's far more personal here. If Gordon cracks, it proves that he's no better (and Joker's no worse). Because he does, Joker is left to wrestle with the fact that he's a weaker man in terms of his morals/sanity.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Saying that stories are markedly similar because they have one or two details in common is a disservice to the complexity of both.
I'll give you Knightfall, part 1. Tons of differences, but enough similarities that I can justify calling it a clear inspiration. The biggest similarity to me is that Bane releases the Arkham patients. Without that, it's only major similarity is Bane's origin (which it takes huge liberties with).
No Man's Land was also a multi-issue event that had years of fallout and ties to the entire, extended Batfamily? (Not to mention the greater DCU). I'm sorry, but I just can't buy them as being related to each other. just feels like a reach. I'd see the "closed off and hopeless" theme of Rises as more akin to Begins than NML.
Except they're not, as I've noted. In reality, they're just stories that Goyer and the Nolan's acknowledged as informing their vision. Details are lifted here and there, but the stories are largely unlike the finished films. Your mistake in essence is equating "acknowledgement of (possible) influences" with "crediting stories that the movies were directly based on".
I'm sure if you asked him, Goyer would say that Byrne's Post-Crisis run on Superman influenced the Man of Steel film. To say that said film is largely based on those comics, however, is a reach.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
Harvey Dent is hardly underdeveloped in TLH. In Year One? Maybe, but not under the pen of Jeph Loeb. The Nolan Dent is overexposed and over-emphasized. His downfall is a foregone conclusion, so the idea that it's shocking or has any particular pathos has never jibed with me.
Comics Bane has far more depth than Nolan Bane. The film version is just Talia's tool. She uses him not unlike how her father used the Asian imposter(s) in the first film.
Comics Bane is a genius who ultimately overcomes nearly every challenge before him. He answers to no one. He's the villainous equivalent of Doc Savage (per his creator, Chuck Dixon). And best of all, his story stands as one of the few times when Batman is beaten without being jobbed.
To my way of thinking, Nolan's Bane only manages to be a competent rendition, not a full adaptation and certainly not an improvement.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
Image recently has put out a lot of good books-
Bomb Queen by Jimmie Robinson is one that turns the superhero genre on it's head- by being unabashedly about a supervillain who runs her own city- no heroes allowed. Explosives, gratuitous violence, profanity, and the boob shot.
Dynamo 5 by Jay Faerber is about five (of an unknown number) bastard children of a fallen hero learning the truth, gaining powers, and defending the city their collective father did- and trying to get along.
Skull*Kickers is, as writer Jim Zub claims, a "buddy-cop movie in a fantasy setting." A mercenary, a dwarf, and recently an Elf do small jobs that snowball into big events. From an assassination plot, to battling a sea monster aboard a pirate ship- nothing ever goes right.
let's not forget Robert Kirkman's books- Invincible & the Walking Dead.
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
I don't see it in Knightfall, Edward. What comics should I look for to get a fuller picture of Bane's character? I liked Bane in the film and wouldn't be adverse to learning more about him.
Film Bane and Bruce mirror one another. Both were rescued from a prison by Ra's Al Ghul. One was chosen by Ra's to be his heir, the other cast out. The similarities between Bane and Bruce, and some similarities between Bane and Ra's Al Ghul, are what set film Bane apart from his comic counterpart and present a more three dimensional character.
I have already mentioned the first major similarity between Bane and Bruce: their origins. Bane also mirrors Batman, in that he accomplishes the goal Bruce set out to accomplish as the Batman. In doing so, Bane manages to succeed where Ra's Al Ghul failed in Batman Begins. Bruce created Batman as a symbol to inspire the citizenry of Gotham to fight back against the corrupt elements in the city's infrastructure. That fight was largely waged by the Trio in The Dark Knight, and the victory maintained by the Dent Act in the 8 years between The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises. However, this was a victory achieved through a lie. If the bureacracy knew that the man who inspired the Dent Act was a murderer, the legislation wouldn't have gone through. If by some chance it did go though, there'd be citizens protesting the glorification of Two-Face's murders.
Bane managed to inspire the citizens of Gotham to rise up against a city whose peace was maintained through the kind of corruption Batman was meant to eliminate. There's also the fact that jobs were scarce in Gotham at the time of TDKR's beginning, which Bane used to further incite the citizens who joined his revolution. In this way, Bane has succeeded where Batman ultimately failed: moving the citizens to root out corruption.
Recall in Batman Begins that Ra's wanted the world to watch Gotham tear itself apart in a fear toxin-induced frenzy. Unfortunately for Ra's, his plan was somewhat curtailed by access to the island with Arkham Asylum being cut off by the GPD. Sure, some of the gas did explode from manholes in Gotham Proper, but the plan was put down before much could come of it. Bane didn't need fear gas to show Gotham's true face; he simply presented the current situation--the Dent Act, and the lie it was built on--as it was and gave the people the means to act. In other words, the Gothamites engaging in the revolution, rounding up the upper class citizens, and the kangaroo courts were lucid rather than drugged.
The similarities between Bane's and Ras' plots aren't unintentional: recall Bane's mannerisms throughout the film and lines in the sewer fight. In Batman Begins, there were a few scenes where Ra's grasped the lapels of his suit. Bane imitates him in TDKR, in the beginning of the sewer fight as he approaches Batman prior to the fight's beginning. The same lapel-grip is present scene where Bane marches from city hall to see the GPD's advance. Two scenes from the sewer fight give us insight into Bane's admiration for Ra's Al Ghul and desire to surpass Ra's as a leader of the League of Shadows: the look in Bane's eyes after Batman makes a comment about Bane having been "cast out by a gang of psychopaths" and the rapid volley of hits Bane delivers in response to the line. The second key scene from this fight is where Bane declares: "I am the League of Shadows, and I am here to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny!" The fact that Bane was cast out by Ra's, and the scope of Bane's plan (in terms of showing the world the corruption within Gotham-the exposure of the Dent Act, and in the people who decided to go through with the revolution) indicate that Bane returned to Gotham to finish Ra's work and succeed where the old master-Ra's Al Ghul-failed.
Talia's motives are simpler than Bane's, but she does play a crucial role in the film as a representation of what Bruce could've become if he dwelt on his parent's death. This is apparent in Talia's statement of purpose: "I honor my father by finishing his work." Thus breaking Bruce, and jetting him to the "Lazarus" Pit, was entirely Bane's idea. Talia had Bruce at her mercy in Wayne Manor. If she were worried about simply killing him, she could've taken the opportunity. In order to use the clean energy project as a weapon, she needed Bruce on her side. Afterward, she could've killed him on the spot.
Thus Bane and Talia were their own people, working to fulfill their individual goals. In doing so, both are foils to Bruce: Bane as the man Bruce could've been if he accepted Ra's offer to become heir to the League of Shadows, and Talia as the person Bruce could've become if he obssessed over avenging his parent's death. On a final note, a tool doesn't disobey the wielder as Bane did after Talia turned her back on him in city hall.
Gotta read the new(ish) collected edition which includes his origin (the Vengeance of Bane micro-series). Batman: Knightfall, Vol. 1 (includes all the material collected in 1993s Batman: Knightfall, Part One: Broken Bat and Batman: Knightfall, Part Two: Who Rules the Night with the addition of Vengeance of Bane, 640 pages, paperback 2012, ISBN 978-1401233792)
Just understand that the comics Bane is a different animal. He's not defined by his relationships to other characters so much as his unwavering ambition and triumphs. He's ironically part of an era that's now much maligned by fans (the 90s), and the type of story he was created for would normally turn me off. However, Dixon does such smart, respectful work with him and Bruce that I'm able to look passed all that.
Really, I'd never suggest reading any comic for its debatable resemblance to a Nolan film (my original point). They're just too different by their nature.
Back on point, I do think that many of the stories mentioned thus far are worth a look, but it's tough making what amount be shot-in-the-dark suggestions for the OP. Hopefully at least some of them are in the vein of what he was looking for.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
I liked the concept behind the character of Azrael, but the execution was a bit off. Bringing myself back on topic, Batman: Hush and Heart of Hush were entertaining. The resolution to Hush wasn't my cup of tea, but the addition to the storyline in Heart of Hush makes up for it. In fact, if you like the Knightfall plot, OP, you'd like Hush. They were both very similar.
Outside of Batman, I can't recommend Hellboy enough. If you don't mind dipping into manga, Kentaro Miura's Berserk is a great horror/fantasy manga with a "dark" and "gritty" feel. Gritty being realistic to the timeperiod it is inspired by, and dark being the overall feel of helplessness in the 1st 14 or so graphic novels. There were plenty of pages where I'd finish and think "He (Miura) isn't gonna go where I think he is--" and he does; the man's not afraid of being gruesome where appropriate. That isn't the selling point, though. The hero, Guts, has an excellent backstory and personality.
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa! Berserk is some strong stuff to recommend there, Karlov. Let's remember that not everyone is ready for (or even interested in) that type of material.
As a way of gauging one's willingness to delve into the darker, more gruesome side of manga, I might recommend Death Note. From there, one can ease their way into the strong stuff, with Berserk being a possibility somewhere down the line.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
Not really. I was rebuffed from the series at first because, while it was well-written and uniquely illustrated, it was fairly obtuse. I skimmed through the rest of the first story arc, found it good, and then picked up a trade from pre-52 times at the behest of my local shop's clerk: Batwoman Elegy. If you go with Batwoman, this is a good place to start before getting into the ongoing series proper. But wherever you do start, do not knock Kate Kane. She is superb.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.