Final trailer released a few days ago. Needless to say, this movie looks really bad. Poor CGI, bad dialogue ("Say yes." Seriously?), and a complete bastardization of one of Marvel's best characters in Doom.
As someone who has closely watched this movie's development ever since they decided to cast Human Torch as black (but keep Invisible Woman white), at this point the race controversy is least of Fox's worries. Butchering Doom and half-assing the writing and CGI are what will likely make Fantastic Four be a major flop. Which is good; the sooner this thing flops the faster Marvel can get the rights to the Fantastic Four back.
First, CGI in trailers is often unfinished and cannot be used to judge its final quality in the theater.
Second, we've seen almost nothing of Doom yet. How can you judge the portrayal one way or the other?
Third, adoption is a thing.
That said, I'm not excited about this film. The real damning evidence, I think, is the lack of confidence the studio itself has shown in it. For a major blockbuster release, the marketing and promotion really have been minimal. I suspect Fox is pretty sure they've got a flop on their hands.
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I was almost down with this movie until the most recent trailer with more Doom footage. Granted I haven't seen enough to know if they butchered it, but I am still skeptical. i actually have no problem with black Human Torch and white Invisible Women, but I have a problem with bad plots and bad writing, which I think this movie will have.
I feel like they absolutely butchered DOOM from what I have heard and seen. I'd almost go as far as saying Fox purposely ruined Marvel's no.1 villain in the film to get back at Marvel in their ongoing beef. I think there's no way I could watch this, simply because how different it is to the source material for no good reason. Sadly, if the movie has just been a standalone thing with no ties to the FF I probably would have gone and seen it.
I feel bad for the actors.
First, CGI in trailers is often unfinished and cannot be used to judge its final quality in the theater.
Second, we've seen almost nothing of Doom yet. How can you judge the portrayal one way or the other?
Third, adoption is a thing.
That said, I'm not excited about this film. The real damning evidence, I think, is the lack of confidence the studio itself has shown in it. For a major blockbuster release, the marketing and promotion really have been minimal. I suspect Fox is pretty sure they've got a flop on their hands.
1. The CGI can be unfinished in trailers, but seeing that tank at 1:28 magically explode does not give me any confidence whatsoever that the CGI will be well-done. This movie is a month away from release. I don't think it's crazy to think that the CGI in Fantastic Four could be just as bad, if not worse than in the 2011 Green Lantern movie.
2. We know from the plot that Doom is supposed to be a computer hacker rather than the ruler of Latveria that he is in the comics. In the comics, Doom is not the stereotypical computer nerd that everyone mocks for having no social life. He is one of the most brilliant men in all of Marvel that truly believes he can make the world a better place if he was ruling it. Doom isn't your typical stock villain that you'll find in a MCU movie. He is very complex and has incredible depth to him. The fact that Fox is turning one of Marvel's best villains into a lame computer hacker is blatant disrespect of the source material. Which leads me to...
3. It is a thing, but it feels forced for Fantastic Four. When Michael B. Jordan landed the role for Human Torch and then cast the rest of the F4 they likely realized, "oh wait, Human Torch and Invisible Woman are supposed to be siblings." So they likely turned to the "they're adopted" reason to bail them out. If Human Torch is going to be black, then Invisible Woman needs to be black as well to be consistent. When you combine that with the way they're characterizing Doom, it becomes natural to think that Fox is not respecting the source material at all. Fox doesn't care if this movie is good at all. They only care about making one solely to retain the rights to Fantastic Four.
I'd almost go as far as saying Fox purposely ruined Marvel's no.1 villain in the film to get back at Marvel in their ongoing beef.
That makes no sense on any level.
Why not? I don't know if you've noticed, but Marvel has basically declared war on the Fantastic Four. They're doing whatever is possible to try to remove all semblance of the Fantastic Four from other media. Fox may own the movie rights to the Fantastic Four, but Marvel owns the toy rights and other media. Marvel is clearly not happy with the way Fox is carrying out the reboot, so they're sabotaging Fox by ****ing up the marketing and hoping that causes the movie to flop.
Also, I concur with B_S. What's wrong with Sue being adopted?
It's unnecessary.
You're probably right. It would've been nice if she'd been portrayed by a black actress (I don't like the actress that plays her), but without actually seeing the movie, what does it matter?
You say 'it's unnecessary', but what does that really mean? How does it really affect anything?
Also, I concur with B_S. What's wrong with Sue being adopted?
It's unnecessary.
That doesn't make it inherently bad. Nick Fury being black is a classic example of an "unnecessary" change that turned out awesome, for instance. It all depends on how they handle it. The Storm's being a mixed family and one being adopted is a potentially interesting idea to explore.
Also, I concur with B_S. What's wrong with Sue being adopted?
It's unnecessary.
You're probably right. It would've been nice if she'd been portrayed by a black actress (I don't like the actress that plays her), but without actually seeing the movie, what does it matter?
You say 'it's unnecessary', but what does that really mean? How does it really affect anything?
I think unnecessary means there's no reason to do it. No good reason to do it at least, apart from Fox pandering from the African American crowd because it would make them more money.
I think unnecessary means there's no reason to do it. No good reason to do it at least, apart from Fox pandering from the African American crowd because it would make them more money.
Aaaand there it is. It's not because Sue's adopted, it's because Johnny is black.
Who cares? Michael B Jordan is a good actor and will do a good job playing Johnny Storm. No 'pandering' involved, he's friends with the director, who had previously cast him in Chronicle.
I think unnecessary means there's no reason to do it. No good reason to do it at least, apart from Fox pandering from the African American crowd because it would make them more money.
Aaaand there it is. It's not because Sue's adopted, it's because Johnny is black.
Who cares? Michael B Jordan is a good actor and will do a good job playing Johnny Storm. No 'pandering' involved, he's friends with the director, who had previously cast him in Chronicle.
I didn't even know Sue was adopted. I assumed Johnny was adopted. I have no beef with Michael B Jordan, but you don't change a iconic character of 40 some years because "my buddy wants to be in the movie" , that's not showing respect to the source material. Any respectable studio would have laughed the idea out of the meeting room, except Fox, because 1. Beef with Marvel 2. Pandering.
I didn't even know Sue was adopted. I assumed Johnny was adopted. I have no beef with Michael B Jordan, but you don't change a iconic character of 40 some years because "my buddy wants to be in the movie" , that's not showing respect to the source material. Any respectable studio would have laughed the idea out of the meeting room, except Fox, because 1. Beef with Marvel 2. Pandering.
So, you missed that pretty basic information (that Dr. Storm is black), but you feel you're in a good position to judge the film?
Most people don't seem to realize it's based on the Ultimate version of the Fantastic Four, and for that it's actually a pretty close adaptation.
I'm not really sure how race has much influence on 'respect' for the source material. There are versions of the Fantastic Four where the Storms are black. Their race is irrelevant to the story.
And I mean, no one complained when Sue was previously played by a Mexican woman, so I'm not really sure where the annoyance is coming from here.
The idea that Fox would somehow sabotage this film because of Marvel is asinine. This film doing poorly is only good for Marvel, because it makes it more likely that Fox will give up and revert the rights, which Fox has no intention of doing.
I didn't even know Sue was adopted. I assumed Johnny was adopted. I have no beef with Michael B Jordan, but you don't change a iconic character of 40 some years because "my buddy wants to be in the movie" , that's not showing respect to the source material. Any respectable studio would have laughed the idea out of the meeting room, except Fox, because 1. Beef with Marvel 2. Pandering.
So, you didn't pay attention to the most basic information they show (like that Dr. Storm is black), but you feel you're in a good position to judge the film?
Most people don't seem to realize it's based on the Ultimate version of the Fantastic Four, and for that it's actually a pretty close adaptation.
I'm not really sure how race has much influence on 'respect' for the source material. There are versions of the Fantastic Four where the Storms are black. Their race is irrelevant to the story.
And I mean, no one complained when Sue was previously played by a Mexican woman, so I'm not really sure where the annoyance is coming from here.
The idea that Fox would somehow sabotage this film because of Marvel is asinine. This film doing poorly is only good for Marvel, because it makes it more likely that Fox will give up and revert the rights, which Fox has no intention of doing.
I read the source material that it was based on and many of the trailers, I feel like I'm in a good position to judge the film. I have no problem with Dr. Storm being black.
If you're going to make the Storms black, then make them black. Don't come around saying, "oh we need to have the black guy to pander...but wait, we also need a hot white girl as well. So lets rewrite their history so we can shoehorn everything in." That entire change was a decision based on financial reasons, and as I said, not a good reason to do it.
As for Sue was played by a Mexican woman...when was that?
If you're going to make the Storms black, then make them black. Don't come around saying, "oh we need to have the black guy to pander...but wait, we also need a hot white girl as well. So lets rewrite their history so we can shoehorn everything in." That entire change was a decision based on financial reasons, and as I said, not a good reason to do it.
I agree with the statement to just make them black.
However, I disagree that it's pandering. What are the financial reasons? I'm legitimately confused as to what business decisions you think went into it?
As for their history, I'm not really sure why Sue being adopted matters. What matters is that they're brother in sister. It gives a feeling like you don't think adopted siblings 'count' as real siblings. The whole theme of the Fantastic Four is about family, and I think it reinforces that theme that despite the adoption they're still family.
I read the source material that it was based on and many of the trailers, I feel like I'm in a good position to judge the film.
Have you read the Ultimate Fantastic Four books, out of curiosity?
I've read very little of Ult FF. I hated goat Doom and I thought his new persona diminished his character and status ALOT. He is one of my fav characters having him becoming whats essentially a B-teir villain really erked me.
If you're going to make the Storms black, then make them black. Don't come around saying, "oh we need to have the black guy to pander...but wait, we also need a hot white girl as well. So lets rewrite their history so we can shoehorn everything in." That entire change was a decision based on financial reasons, and as I said, not a good reason to do it.
I agree with the statement to just make them black.
However, I disagree that it's pandering. What are the financial reasons? I'm legitimately confused as to what business decisions you think went into it?
As for their history, I'm not really sure why Sue being adopted matters. What matters is that they're brother in sister. It gives a feeling like you don't think adopted siblings 'count' as real siblings. The whole theme of the Fantastic Four is about family, and I think it reinforces that theme that despite the adoption they're still family.
So why not have Dr.Storm adopt a black kid? Or Latino or Asian? Everything in this decision reeks of Fox hand picking demographics they want to market to (black and young males) and changing the story to suit their needs. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just not necessary from anything except a marketing point of view. At this rate I'm surprised Mr Fantastic isn't Asian and the Thing isn't transgendered.
As for Sue was played by a Mexican woman...when was that?
Jessica Alba is half Mexican - there was a little bit out outcry about her casting but mostly no one cared or noticed.
Lets be honest. Jessica Alba could play a white woman and the character was a white woman, I don't think many people even knew Jessica Alba was half Mexican (I certainly didn't). They didn't cast her because they wanted to make Sue Storm mexican, they cast her because she could play Sue Storm as she is portrayed in the comics. If Salma Hayek was cast as Sue and spoke with a accent the entire movie, there would be a lot more outcry because you're redefining the character.
The fact that Fox is turning one of Marvel's best villains into a lame computer hacker is blatant disrespect of the source material.
Even if this is true, it's important to keep in sight the distinction between "just doesn't care about a comic book" and "deliberately pooping on the comic book out of spite". The former is probable. The latter is highly improbable.
Why not? I don't know if you've noticed, but Marvel has basically declared war on the Fantastic Four. They're doing whatever is possible to try to remove all semblance of the Fantastic Four from other media. Fox may own the movie rights to the Fantastic Four, but Marvel owns the toy rights and other media. Marvel is clearly not happy with the way Fox is carrying out the reboot, so they're sabotaging Fox by ****ing up the marketing and hoping that causes the movie to flop.
Yes. Those are things that Marvel is doing. It makes no sense for Fox to deliberately sabotage their own movie.
Who cares? Michael B Jordan is a good actor and will do a good job playing Johnny Storm. No 'pandering' involved, he's friends with the director, who had previously cast him in Chronicle.
Reeeally looking forward to him in Creed.
Chronicle sucked, though.
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I do hate that they keep tying Dr. Doom to the Fantastic Four's Origin. The Fantastic Four have a wide array of enemies, many of whom would be perfectly serviceable for film.
Aaaand there it is. It's not because Sue's adopted, it's because Johnny is black.
Who cares? Michael B Jordan is a good actor and will do a good job playing Johnny Storm. No 'pandering' involved, he's friends with the director, who had previously cast him in Chronicle.
Why make the Storm family black and Susan Storm adopted?
As you wrote, why not make Susan Storm an actual blood member of the family?
I have no idea why they made Johnny black, nor do I particularly care about it. I also don't care about source material or w.e. Besides, it's one thing to take a bunch of characters whose ethnicity and culture doesn't figure into their identity and change it, and quite another to take James Bond and suddenly make him Chinese. Or black. Or from America. Or w.e. that's not from Britain. Or make him take his martini... stirred, not shaken.
It's just... unnecessary. Pointless. Serves nothing. Doesn't do anything to change the story for the better.
(Hah, it'll be funny if I have to eat my words when they make this into an actual dynamic in the film in the manner a couple of you have suggested).
As someone who has closely watched this movie's development ever since they decided to cast Human Torch as black (but keep Invisible Woman white), at this point the race controversy is least of Fox's worries. Butchering Doom and half-assing the writing and CGI are what will likely make Fantastic Four be a major flop. Which is good; the sooner this thing flops the faster Marvel can get the rights to the Fantastic Four back.
First, CGI in trailers is often unfinished and cannot be used to judge its final quality in the theater.
Second, we've seen almost nothing of Doom yet. How can you judge the portrayal one way or the other?
Third, adoption is a thing.
That said, I'm not excited about this film. The real damning evidence, I think, is the lack of confidence the studio itself has shown in it. For a major blockbuster release, the marketing and promotion really have been minimal. I suspect Fox is pretty sure they've got a flop on their hands.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
That doesn't mean this movie will do the same, but it's at least worth giving the benefit of the doubt until it actually comes out.
Also, I concur with B_S. What's wrong with Sue being adopted?
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I feel bad for the actors.
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What is coming?
Doom.
:rollseyes:
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1. The CGI can be unfinished in trailers, but seeing that tank at 1:28 magically explode does not give me any confidence whatsoever that the CGI will be well-done. This movie is a month away from release. I don't think it's crazy to think that the CGI in Fantastic Four could be just as bad, if not worse than in the 2011 Green Lantern movie.
2. We know from the plot that Doom is supposed to be a computer hacker rather than the ruler of Latveria that he is in the comics. In the comics, Doom is not the stereotypical computer nerd that everyone mocks for having no social life. He is one of the most brilliant men in all of Marvel that truly believes he can make the world a better place if he was ruling it. Doom isn't your typical stock villain that you'll find in a MCU movie. He is very complex and has incredible depth to him. The fact that Fox is turning one of Marvel's best villains into a lame computer hacker is blatant disrespect of the source material. Which leads me to...
3. It is a thing, but it feels forced for Fantastic Four. When Michael B. Jordan landed the role for Human Torch and then cast the rest of the F4 they likely realized, "oh wait, Human Torch and Invisible Woman are supposed to be siblings." So they likely turned to the "they're adopted" reason to bail them out. If Human Torch is going to be black, then Invisible Woman needs to be black as well to be consistent. When you combine that with the way they're characterizing Doom, it becomes natural to think that Fox is not respecting the source material at all. Fox doesn't care if this movie is good at all. They only care about making one solely to retain the rights to Fantastic Four.
Why not? I don't know if you've noticed, but Marvel has basically declared war on the Fantastic Four. They're doing whatever is possible to try to remove all semblance of the Fantastic Four from other media. Fox may own the movie rights to the Fantastic Four, but Marvel owns the toy rights and other media. Marvel is clearly not happy with the way Fox is carrying out the reboot, so they're sabotaging Fox by ****ing up the marketing and hoping that causes the movie to flop.
It's unnecessary.
You say 'it's unnecessary', but what does that really mean? How does it really affect anything?
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That doesn't make it inherently bad. Nick Fury being black is a classic example of an "unnecessary" change that turned out awesome, for instance. It all depends on how they handle it. The Storm's being a mixed family and one being adopted is a potentially interesting idea to explore.
I think unnecessary means there's no reason to do it. No good reason to do it at least, apart from Fox pandering from the African American crowd because it would make them more money.
Who cares? Michael B Jordan is a good actor and will do a good job playing Johnny Storm. No 'pandering' involved, he's friends with the director, who had previously cast him in Chronicle.
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I didn't even know Sue was adopted. I assumed Johnny was adopted. I have no beef with Michael B Jordan, but you don't change a iconic character of 40 some years because "my buddy wants to be in the movie" , that's not showing respect to the source material. Any respectable studio would have laughed the idea out of the meeting room, except Fox, because 1. Beef with Marvel 2. Pandering.
Most people don't seem to realize it's based on the Ultimate version of the Fantastic Four, and for that it's actually a pretty close adaptation.
I'm not really sure how race has much influence on 'respect' for the source material. There are versions of the Fantastic Four where the Storms are black. Their race is irrelevant to the story.
And I mean, no one complained when Sue was previously played by a Mexican woman, so I'm not really sure where the annoyance is coming from here.
The idea that Fox would somehow sabotage this film because of Marvel is asinine. This film doing poorly is only good for Marvel, because it makes it more likely that Fox will give up and revert the rights, which Fox has no intention of doing.
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I read the source material that it was based on and many of the trailers, I feel like I'm in a good position to judge the film. I have no problem with Dr. Storm being black.
If you're going to make the Storms black, then make them black. Don't come around saying, "oh we need to have the black guy to pander...but wait, we also need a hot white girl as well. So lets rewrite their history so we can shoehorn everything in." That entire change was a decision based on financial reasons, and as I said, not a good reason to do it.
As for Sue was played by a Mexican woman...when was that?
I agree with the statement to just make them black.
However, I disagree that it's pandering. What are the financial reasons? I'm legitimately confused as to what business decisions you think went into it?
As for their history, I'm not really sure why Sue being adopted matters. What matters is that they're brother in sister. It gives a feeling like you don't think adopted siblings 'count' as real siblings. The whole theme of the Fantastic Four is about family, and I think it reinforces that theme that despite the adoption they're still family.
Jessica Alba is half Mexican - there was a little bit out outcry about her casting but mostly no one cared or noticed.
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I've read very little of Ult FF. I hated goat Doom and I thought his new persona diminished his character and status ALOT. He is one of my fav characters having him becoming whats essentially a B-teir villain really erked me.
So why not have Dr.Storm adopt a black kid? Or Latino or Asian? Everything in this decision reeks of Fox hand picking demographics they want to market to (black and young males) and changing the story to suit their needs. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just not necessary from anything except a marketing point of view. At this rate I'm surprised Mr Fantastic isn't Asian and the Thing isn't transgendered.
Lets be honest. Jessica Alba could play a white woman and the character was a white woman, I don't think many people even knew Jessica Alba was half Mexican (I certainly didn't). They didn't cast her because they wanted to make Sue Storm mexican, they cast her because she could play Sue Storm as she is portrayed in the comics. If Salma Hayek was cast as Sue and spoke with a accent the entire movie, there would be a lot more outcry because you're redefining the character.
Even if this is true, it's important to keep in sight the distinction between "just doesn't care about a comic book" and "deliberately pooping on the comic book out of spite". The former is probable. The latter is highly improbable.
Yes. Those are things that Marvel is doing. It makes no sense for Fox to deliberately sabotage their own movie.
Especially since the Fantastic Four story is already very much about family being more than just blood ties.
Reeeally looking forward to him in Creed.
Chronicle sucked, though.
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Oh my god, yes. That's the perfect direction to take to keep the Rocky franchise going. He's even got the American flag boxers.
Side note: Have you seen the trailers for Southpaw? Is it just me or does it seem like a remake of Rocky 3?
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Why make the Storm family black and Susan Storm adopted?
As you wrote, why not make Susan Storm an actual blood member of the family?
I have no idea why they made Johnny black, nor do I particularly care about it. I also don't care about source material or w.e. Besides, it's one thing to take a bunch of characters whose ethnicity and culture doesn't figure into their identity and change it, and quite another to take James Bond and suddenly make him Chinese. Or black. Or from America. Or w.e. that's not from Britain. Or make him take his martini... stirred, not shaken.
It's just... unnecessary. Pointless. Serves nothing. Doesn't do anything to change the story for the better.
(Hah, it'll be funny if I have to eat my words when they make this into an actual dynamic in the film in the manner a couple of you have suggested).