Would love to join this clan once I hit six months. I caught myself describing bid/ask spreads on MTGO the other day to someone and I realized this would be my home.
Would love to join this clan once I hit six months. I caught myself describing bid/ask spreads on MTGO the other day to someone and I realized this would be my home.
And when you do, we'll most likely be happy to have you.
Bid-ask spreads, hehe nice! Dang PsiJet, that's an impressive to-do list I'm still struggling with just remembering to bump my thread everyday, lol
It's a constant thing with me as you'll notice. Not always fun, but has to be done. That's why my Chancellors are very important to me, so that way when I get a mass of work to do, I can rely on them to take care of other things that may require attention, but not 'guild leader' attention.
EDIT: On said note, below is a proposal of updates/changes to make things more cohesive/streamlined as well as easier to process potential members. Questions, comments, etc are welcome and if it's fine/works all around then they will become our rules, otherwise we will discuss certain areas in which you would like to amend/make changes/etc.
Welcome to The Merchants Guild! Please feel free to browse on and, if you wish to join, let us know! It's always open recruiting for traders and sellers alike!
The Merchants Guild is an organization of members who not only have an interest in being a part of the community, but who have a specialized interest in the selling and trading of the cards associated with the game.
The guild is in no way intended to replace any part of the iTrader rating system, nor does it replace the Market Street Cafe, but is geared towards general discussion and trading/sales of cards and a place for members to unwind.
The Merchants Guild prides itself by staying on top of trading and selling practices as all of our memebers are pre-screened prior to full guild membership. It can be a lengthy process sometimes, but in the long run is well worth it, we promise!
Please note that the Trade Rules and Sales Rules are also in effect and must be adhered to.
NOTICE
Trade and Sales rules have been updated! Please read them here!
We offer a ton of things that will assist our members with trading and selling. This may include:
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* Tips & Tricks to improve your list(s).
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* Listing of packaging/supply companies to help you save money.
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* A link on our guild page with your trade/sell list.
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* A fun a friendly environment to discuss trading practices, secondary markets and to hang out.
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* Much, much more to come soon!
The Merchants Guild has very strict requirements to join as there are several other rules and regulations that must be adhered to. Below you will find the requirements to join.
1. Applicants must:
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I. 150 posts on the forums -OR- have at least 25 posts and been a forum member for at least 6 months.
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II. Trade and/or sell list.
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III. 100% positive feedback
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III-a. If you have more than 25 iTrader refs and less than 100% feedback, it will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.
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IV. At least 18 years old.
4. Applicants CAN'T:
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I. Have open BTRs against them within the past 3 months.
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II. Be Tradebanned or have been suspended from trading within the past 3 months.
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III. Be a member of another guild (although we do like to be friends with guilds and their members!)
If you feel you comply with the above, please feel free to continue down to [Merchant Guild Application].
Upon review of an application by the guild leader, you will be put on probation within the guild. During this time you MUST make at least an effort to post within the guild thread. During this time also, discussions may happen in regards to your full guild membership.
The reason why we ask for certain information is to comply with various rules. Since we are closely associated with the Market Street, we also like to make sure that ALL our members comply with the rules and regulations.
All Market Street rules for both traders and sellers are in effect. If you are unfamiliar with them, then you must read them as this will avoid any troubles later on. (Trade/Sell rules updated 05/22/2011)
1. Bad Trade Reports (BTRs): They happen and they're not fun. One of the main goals of The Merchants Guild is to minimize BTRs. This does not mean we can stop from happening at all. The Merchants Guild does not handle BTRs and all BTRs should be filed in their appropriate place. We do, however, take them extremely serious when they are brought against our members, therefore the following is in place:
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I. Members on probation getting a BTR will be reviewed and possibly removed from the guild.
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II. Members getting 3 BTRs in a 6 month period will be put on probation for NO LESS THAN 6 months.
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III. Members removed from the guild due to BTRs may not join again for 3 months.
2. There is a requirement that each clan be considered 'active'. For such, we require that each of our members post at least 5-10 times a month. This will insure that our guild stays alive as per the rules!
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I. Guild Post Suspension (GPS) - If you are going to be away from the site for a certain amount of time, you must notify a Chancellor so they may put you on GPS. During GPS, you are not required to post in the guild thread, however you will also not be allowed to post elsewhere. If you do, you will be removed from GPS.
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II. Members who are inactive in the guild will be put on probation for one month. If they fail to meet the minimum required number of posts in the guild thread, they will be removed from the guild and unable to join the guild for a period of NO LESS THAN 3 months.
3. No trading or selling inside the guild thread. Trading and selling must be made in PMs and/or via your trade and/or sell thread. You may view a member's trade thread by clicking on the appropriate link below.
The following are the guild ranks.
1. Guild Leader - Updates guild main page/posting, deals with daily/weekly/monthly operations, oversees the Chancellors. The Guild Leader also supports and takes the word of his Chancellors very seriously as they are his eyes and ears. The Guild Leader position may only be voted upon if the guild leader steps down.
2. Chancellors - Oversees the members as needed. Questions and comments can be directed to them. Chancellors are added on a case by case basis, or when the membership is greater than 10:1 of Members:Chancellors. Chancellors are selected by the Guild Leader and voted upon by the members.
3. Guild Representative - Represents the guild in any upcoming 'clan events'.
4. Charter Member - General guild members. Members of this guild are people who have been "pre-screened" and have proven time and time again to be reliable and honest traders and sellers.
You must fill out and PM the Guild Leader with a completed application. If you don't fill it out completely, your application may be delayed and/or denied. Most information is kept private and will NOT be displayed or given unless requested by a moderator and/or administrator.
APPLICATION (Must be filled out by ALL members)
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Your FULL name:
Username:
Email Address:
Date of Birth:
1. Do you: [ ] Trade, [ ] Sell, [ ] Both
2. Please copy/paste the link(s) to your trade and/or sell threads here:
3. Forms of Payment Accepted: [ ] Cash, [ ] Money Order, [ ] Check, [ ] Paypal
4. Trade and/or Sell Area: [ ] Local (50-100 miles), [ ] Statewide*, [ ] Country*, [ ] Country Neighbors*, [ ] Worldwide
4a. If Statewide, Country, or Country Neighbors, please use this space to list which state, country and/or country neighbors you are okay to trade with, otherwise, skip to the next section.
5. During your first three months, you must have a confirmed, completed and positive trade, sell or purchase with another member of the guild, regardless of whether or not you have done so prior to membership. Are you able to comply with this? [ ] Yes, [ ] No
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If no, please state why:
6. Do you offer any form of deals on trades/sells? [ ] Yes, [ ] No
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If yes, please list here (BoGos, free ship, etc...):
7. Do you agree to abide by the guild rules, trade/sell rules and general forum rules? [ ] Yes, [ ] No
Quick q - what part of the trading/sales rules were changed? Any idea? It seems about the same to me
About the trading rules, hrm 18+? Time to check my license
Oh and hey, so 6 months or 150 posts, so flat_hand can join now actually, hehe.
They were mostly subtle changes, but a major one was that traders/sellers must be 18+, which albeit harsh, is a US law since trading and selling would put a person under "contractual obligation". In of such, a minor can't be contractually bound. This is no matter what country the person is in since the site is based in the US.
Yes, it is possible. I'll be reviewing that, but he would still have to fill out the application, as I am debating whether or not it be a good idea that we all do.
EDIT: On a lighter note - I hit my 1000th post. I didn't know I could post so much!
In regards to trading up I feel there should only be a premium on cards being traded from standard / extended to eternal. If you want 7 fetches and i want a 70 dollar card you have id be willing to give about a 5% premium. I think anytime you are trading cards worth more than $8 towards a card in the 30's 40's 50's all the way up to about 100 bux it comes down to am I getting what I need or want? People need to stop thinking that trading down is any time a card is more valuable than the cards offered. Someone once told me 5 $10 cards are not worth 1 $50 card. I beg to differ.
EDIT: Okay, ALL votes are in...and you guys are mean.
Should him88himself be allowed to join the Merchants Guild?
Yes
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- 3
No
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- 3
This means that it's a tie. In such an event, it is left up to me to decide.
Having heard both sides of yes and no, I have decided to allow him in on a probationary period of 2 months. He will also be required to fill out our application (aka - guinea pig it, LOL).
I've actually got a comment to the trading up thing as well but I'm not sure if I should mention it I guess I will make an attempt, and take into consideration the following is entirely IMHO, and I'm well aware this is not the general view but please don't stone me for my comments.
I think the primary reason the trading up/down phenomenon occurs is due to purchasing power disparity. The phenomenon manifests itself in that a $70 dollar card, say Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and 7 $10 cards, say Verdant Catacombs, although equivalent in monetary value, cannot usually be traded one for the other on an equal value basis. Purchsing power disparity occurs because not everybody has the $70 to buy that Jace, and if many of the people you trade with don't have this capability either, it turns the $70 Jace into being worth more than 7 $10 fetches. Since this phenomenon is widespread (everybody can spend $10, but not everybody can spend $70), this impacts the market, and we know it as the trading up/down phenomenon.
If a guy is on the $70 end of the spectrum, there is no reason to trade up, he can and should always just pay $70 to buy the card instead of trading $80 in value for it if he thinks he can offset it by selling 7 $10 cards. Also, since the trading up phenomenon is widespread, this guy can just trade down to get more 'value'. That is to say, suppose you want to buy $1000 in cards, say, a legacy deck. Instead of paying $1000 for the deck, you could just pay $900 (conservative estimate) in the higher-dollar value cards and trade down eventually to get all the cards you want, at lower cost
Now in real life, most people have financial obligations and can't just fling paper around 'makin it rain', so that is why the phenomenon still exists. In a purely hypothetical world though, supposing you had a large sum of money at your disposal, no cards and you want to play all the formats, there should be absolutely no difference between a standard card, an extended card, legacy card or vintage card. Every card has its price, which includes an embedded time value (generally expressed as negative for standard/extended cards, positive for legacy/vintage cards), and if everything were priced accurately, all the choices should be equivalent.
So, in conclusion, if you are a rational trader you should never trade up if you are holding unrisky, semi-liquid cards that can be sold off for value at some point in time. However, given the way the forums work, and certainly the way things work in RL trading, it is practical from a trading standpoint to continue to ask for trade-ups on the receiving end, because if you ever want to trade 7 small cards for a big one, it is difficult to find a counterparty who doesn't ask for this premium.
Did I really just write all that when I could have simply said 'don't trade up, but accept trade-ups'? Ummm yeah I just find the reasoning irrational, but oh well.
P.S. Josh, send me your aggro-loam list, I would love to try it out!
@PsiJet: Mean? I think you mean to say 'balanced' ^^
P.S. Josh, send me your aggro-loam list, I would love to try it out!
@PsiJet: Mean? I think you mean to say 'balanced' ^^
No, I mean 'mean' as in 'cruel' and 'evil', LOL. It's no big deal though. I have a feeling that it will happen so it's not that huge of a deal.
@jlm: I would like to see this list of yours as well.
NOTE: I am currently working on a listing of packaging/shipping supplies that will be blogged and linked to the guild. If you have anything that you wish added to it, please feel free to list them here and I will add them.
EDIT: Okay - just to let you all know, the rules are now currently firm and in place. I do not foresee any changes forthcoming with it. If you are a current member, you do not have to update/do anything except PM me your Email Address and Date of Birth. This can be done whenever you ultimately feel, but the sooner the better. (I also promise that your information will NOT be put on any list! I hate spam with a passion too).
EDIT #2: Also, if anyone uses a particular company for products that they use for either shipping or making sure their shipment is safe and secure, please let me know so I can add it into the list.
EDIT #3: Please welcome flat_head to the guild. He is on probationary guild membership until 06/25/2011 and trades in MTGO. He has been advised to at least get his inactive trade/sell thread activated again. So either way, if you trade in MTGO, feel free to check with them!
@PsiJet: For shipping, I use Paypal Multi-Order shipping Shipping directly via USPS.com is slightly cheaper but more of a hassle, so I think between these two, Paypal usually wins out. For a lot of volume (small online shop, etc.), Endicia, PitneyBowes, Stamps.com might make even more sense if you ship enough to balance their fees.
@flat head: Welcome, and push that bid-ask mentality here on the forums
Stoneforges have always been cheaper online because they're a 3-of in the Exiler Legacy precon, but now with the announcement of the event decks they seem to be dropping even further. I saw foil stoneforges going online for 13-15 tickets the other day, and today there's a classified ad offering a foil playset for 40.
I missed the boat on preordering the event decks, but they might not be as scarce when they release as they are now. I know for a fact that Newbury Comics all over Boston had the previous set of event decks, as well as other comic stores (not just LGSs). Not sure if buying them there to flip would be worth it, but it'll be interesting to see how much retailers jack prices up for the decks.
One of the Mods should have an answer for you shortly, we're talking about it now, but theres a time gap between the US and Australia.
Friendify me if possible? I don't trade online like I used to, but I like what ya'll are doing.
And as customary: :cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie:
Cookies for your clan!
ban on you weaver
Woot freshmen :p.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
http://forum.iwtso.com/index.php http://iwtso.com/
Join our forum and site to Watch Simpsons free, and discuss a whole lot of other things on our forum.
We are about to have a competition on our forum, join for a chance to win $75
LOL @ Reya. Don't make me bring up your Llamas....
EDIT: I've been approved for the Auction House (yay!) LOL. That gives me pretty much full access to the Market Street area (as I am sure most of you are as well).
New Phyrexia just went online with prerelease events and prices predictably are all over the place. Lots of buy offers on the classifieds for stuff, but nothing's really shown up on the bots yet.
I wish I could easily upload a spreadsheet in forum code! Let's start with mental misstep. the spread between the lowest static sell offer (6) and the highest buy offer (1) should narrow soon. I think eventually you'll be able to get them for 2 tickets because as popular as legacy is on paper, it hasn't quite reached that level online yet. Sword of War and Peace seems to have a bit of a bubble going - Highest buy offer I'm seeing right now is 25 tickets, while sell offers are typically in the 30's and as high as 60 tickets! The paper version goes for $20-$22 at many online dealers. The high bid for Batterskull is 25 and the low ask is 30, so the spread isn't nearly as wide there. Compare that to the paper batterskull which can be had for $18.
What does this tell us? Even with information from recent paper tournaments factored in, prerelease events definitely get a bit of a bubble going online as well. I'm going to be busting open an online prerelease later today, and good pulls to anyone else who will!
Other comments to avoid a doublepoast:
- Surgical Extraction is not that great of a card, but there are many people still offering to buy it at 3 tickets. It's really not that much better than memoricide, which is going for bulk rates right now. If you open any online, just dump them and pick them up for your sideboards later if you must.
- Spellskite is one card to keep if you open it, or if you can get it for cheaper than the $9-$10 it commands on paper. The high bid is 7 while I can't even see asks on the classifieds right now, which means people must be holding on to them for dear life. It's playable in nearly every deck and I think it'll be particularly good in Block Constructed.
- Speaking of Block Constructed, it's actually a format online, even before Wizards said that organizers could run it at FNM. The online support for Block Constructed led to cards like Hero of Bladehold reaching 15 tickets (~$15), much higher than the paper version. Hot cards in Block Constructed are also great cards to watch for possible post-rotation spikes, as the Block decks begin to form the backbone of the next standard metagame.
Yo flathead, so I don't play any mtgo at all, but it seems there is a fair amount of trading going on there, and I have been somewhat interested in participating in it at some point. Q for you - who makes/runs the mtgo 'bots'? I hear a lot about these, just wanted to know who runs them, and if there's an API to hook into for this?
Dresden - from what I understand, they're mostly run through this system, which provides the closest thing to an API in the form of a basic bot skeleton. http://mtgolibrary.com/
A bot is basically a program that automates trading for online accounts. Online dealers will stock accounts with cards and assign a bot program to them, which will handle trading with any other online players that want to deal with them. I understand most dealers use the mtgolibrary bot, it's possible to write one yourself or acquire a bot from another source, but I would be wary of those as one of the main ways accounts are "hacked" is when someone gets a bot from someone else and that bot plunders all the cards from an account for the original bot writer. Besides that, accounts are pretty much secure as long as you are smart with your password.
There's a lot of trading going on online for a few reasons. First, trades can happen instantaneously and there are fewer transaction costs (shipping etc). Second, all packs opened online go into the same marketplace, unlike paper where some cards will go to SCG and some will sit in LGS binders that don't deal online. Third, the classified ads system, primitive as it is (and jesus christ it is cave painting status compared to what it could be for this marketplace :sadface:) allows you to view and compare prices for all cards very quickly, and it's visible to everyone.
Yo flathead, who owns the classified ads system, wotc? Just wondering. Does it basically provide the bbo for all cards from all vendors? Looks like the mtgolibrary creators are making a decent cut oh well, too bad there's no reserved list online. Spellskite and Surgical Extraction trend the same way irl, but a bit cheaper for SpellSkite last I checked.
The one main thing I dislike about MTGO trading (and this is just my person perspective from having dealings with it):
1. Most people would rather trade for tix (which are about 95¢ each, so not even full value)
2. You don't get to physically OWN any of the cards unless you have a complete set of a block, which means you'd be looking at spending more (at least last I heard).
3. People are worse about attempting to low-ball you.
4. There is no moderation to the trades.
The upside:
1. It is instant/fast and does reduce the need for shipping.
2. You can 'technically' own a card that you couldn't afford otherwise.
3. You can purchase your boosters for drafts/tournaments with tix.
I mean, you can take it for what it's worth, and there are probably a few people who prefer to trade virtual cards v. real cards, but I much prefer to have cards in hand.
There isn't even really a BBO system, that's how dumb it is. You have to look at the ads manually yourself but it doesn't take terribly long since you can at least search them by keyword. WOTC owns it and it's definitely a legit complaint to say that MTGO is years behind other online games/economies because of how primitive it is. Hopefully SOMETHING changes to it with MTGO 4.0.
There is no reserve list online, and that's pretty much the only reason I got into playing legacy there - one of the online legacy precons has 3 karakas and the entire Death and Taxes core, just need to unbudget it with Wastelands, Swords etc.
@PsiJet
Good Save!
Hahaha, actually, legally, you don't own the cards at all. It's data on WOTC's servers. I guess I'm sort of OK with that just because I don't really maintain a paper collection anymore - getting to the game store on Friday night is a bit of a pain and I don't even like my LGS too much anyway. MTGO does lack some of that social interaction with Magic, which is why I still enjoy going to paper prereleases.
People low-ball, but I find it's easier to come to deals quickly overall. Trades aren't moderated, but the trading system is pretty secure (no worries about "sending first" and such) so I'm a big fan of that. One other advantage is you never need to worry about card conditions
I kinda like the logo we have now, its attractive atleast in my opinion.
flat_head what's your mtgo account. I dont go on there much anymore, mostly to play an edh or mormir. I got cards Im looking to give away, nothing high dollar but nonetheless its free.
MTGO: flathead
Advantages of MTGO over paper magic
And when you do, we'll most likely be happy to have you.
It's a constant thing with me as you'll notice. Not always fun, but has to be done. That's why my Chancellors are very important to me, so that way when I get a mass of work to do, I can rely on them to take care of other things that may require attention, but not 'guild leader' attention.
EDIT: On said note, below is a proposal of updates/changes to make things more cohesive/streamlined as well as easier to process potential members. Questions, comments, etc are welcome and if it's fine/works all around then they will become our rules, otherwise we will discuss certain areas in which you would like to amend/make changes/etc.
Welcome to The Merchants Guild! Please feel free to browse on and, if you wish to join, let us know! It's always open recruiting for traders and sellers alike!
The Merchants Guild is an organization of members who not only have an interest in being a part of the community, but who have a specialized interest in the selling and trading of the cards associated with the game.
The guild is in no way intended to replace any part of the iTrader rating system, nor does it replace the Market Street Cafe, but is geared towards general discussion and trading/sales of cards and a place for members to unwind.
The Merchants Guild prides itself by staying on top of trading and selling practices as all of our memebers are pre-screened prior to full guild membership. It can be a lengthy process sometimes, but in the long run is well worth it, we promise!
Please note that the Trade Rules and Sales Rules are also in effect and must be adhered to.
Trade and Sales rules have been updated! Please read them here!
We offer a ton of things that will assist our members with trading and selling. This may include:
The Merchants Guild has very strict requirements to join as there are several other rules and regulations that must be adhered to. Below you will find the requirements to join.
1. Applicants must:
4. Applicants CAN'T:
If you feel you comply with the above, please feel free to continue down to [Merchant Guild Application].
Upon review of an application by the guild leader, you will be put on probation within the guild. During this time you MUST make at least an effort to post within the guild thread. During this time also, discussions may happen in regards to your full guild membership.
The reason why we ask for certain information is to comply with various rules. Since we are closely associated with the Market Street, we also like to make sure that ALL our members comply with the rules and regulations.
All Market Street rules for both traders and sellers are in effect. If you are unfamiliar with them, then you must read them as this will avoid any troubles later on. (Trade/Sell rules updated 05/22/2011)
1. Bad Trade Reports (BTRs): They happen and they're not fun. One of the main goals of The Merchants Guild is to minimize BTRs. This does not mean we can stop from happening at all. The Merchants Guild does not handle BTRs and all BTRs should be filed in their appropriate place. We do, however, take them extremely serious when they are brought against our members, therefore the following is in place:
2. There is a requirement that each clan be considered 'active'. For such, we require that each of our members post at least 5-10 times a month. This will insure that our guild stays alive as per the rules!
3. No trading or selling inside the guild thread. Trading and selling must be made in PMs and/or via your trade and/or sell thread. You may view a member's trade thread by clicking on the appropriate link below.
The following are the guild ranks.
1. Guild Leader - Updates guild main page/posting, deals with daily/weekly/monthly operations, oversees the Chancellors. The Guild Leader also supports and takes the word of his Chancellors very seriously as they are his eyes and ears. The Guild Leader position may only be voted upon if the guild leader steps down.
2. Chancellors - Oversees the members as needed. Questions and comments can be directed to them. Chancellors are added on a case by case basis, or when the membership is greater than 10:1 of Members:Chancellors. Chancellors are selected by the Guild Leader and voted upon by the members.
3. Guild Representative - Represents the guild in any upcoming 'clan events'.
4. Charter Member - General guild members. Members of this guild are people who have been "pre-screened" and have proven time and time again to be reliable and honest traders and sellers.
You must fill out and PM the Guild Leader with a completed application. If you don't fill it out completely, your application may be delayed and/or denied. Most information is kept private and will NOT be displayed or given unless requested by a moderator and/or administrator.
APPLICATION (Must be filled out by ALL members)
-------------------------------------------------------
Your FULL name:
Username:
Email Address:
Date of Birth:
1. Do you: [ ] Trade, [ ] Sell, [ ] Both
2. Please copy/paste the link(s) to your trade and/or sell threads here:
3. Forms of Payment Accepted: [ ] Cash, [ ] Money Order, [ ] Check, [ ] Paypal
4. Trade and/or Sell Area: [ ] Local (50-100 miles), [ ] Statewide*, [ ] Country*, [ ] Country Neighbors*, [ ] Worldwide
4a. If Statewide, Country, or Country Neighbors, please use this space to list which state, country and/or country neighbors you are okay to trade with, otherwise, skip to the next section.
5. During your first three months, you must have a confirmed, completed and positive trade, sell or purchase with another member of the guild, regardless of whether or not you have done so prior to membership. Are you able to comply with this? [ ] Yes, [ ] No
6. Do you offer any form of deals on trades/sells? [ ] Yes, [ ] No
7. Do you agree to abide by the guild rules, trade/sell rules and general forum rules? [ ] Yes, [ ] No
Quick q - what part of the trading/sales rules were changed? Any idea? It seems about the same to me
About the trading rules, hrm 18+? Time to check my license
Oh and hey, so 6 months or 150 posts, so flat_head can join now actually, hehe.
They were mostly subtle changes, but a major one was that traders/sellers must be 18+, which albeit harsh, is a US law since trading and selling would put a person under "contractual obligation". In of such, a minor can't be contractually bound. This is no matter what country the person is in since the site is based in the US.
Yes, it is possible. I'll be reviewing that, but he would still have to fill out the application, as I am debating whether or not it be a good idea that we all do.
EDIT: On a lighter note - I hit my 1000th post. I didn't know I could post so much!
If anyone's interested, I'm trying out a variant of loam-aggro, and I'd love to get some input on the decklist. Pm me for details.
Thanks
Josh
Sales Thread. Great Deals!
Trade Thread Great Stuff!
The Merchant's Guild, The sellers, traders and now buyers guild!
Should him88himself be allowed to join the Merchants Guild?
Yes
No
This means that it's a tie. In such an event, it is left up to me to decide.
Having heard both sides of yes and no, I have decided to allow him in on a probationary period of 2 months. He will also be required to fill out our application (aka - guinea pig it, LOL).
I think the primary reason the trading up/down phenomenon occurs is due to purchasing power disparity. The phenomenon manifests itself in that a $70 dollar card, say Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and 7 $10 cards, say Verdant Catacombs, although equivalent in monetary value, cannot usually be traded one for the other on an equal value basis. Purchsing power disparity occurs because not everybody has the $70 to buy that Jace, and if many of the people you trade with don't have this capability either, it turns the $70 Jace into being worth more than 7 $10 fetches. Since this phenomenon is widespread (everybody can spend $10, but not everybody can spend $70), this impacts the market, and we know it as the trading up/down phenomenon.
If a guy is on the $70 end of the spectrum, there is no reason to trade up, he can and should always just pay $70 to buy the card instead of trading $80 in value for it if he thinks he can offset it by selling 7 $10 cards. Also, since the trading up phenomenon is widespread, this guy can just trade down to get more 'value'. That is to say, suppose you want to buy $1000 in cards, say, a legacy deck. Instead of paying $1000 for the deck, you could just pay $900 (conservative estimate) in the higher-dollar value cards and trade down eventually to get all the cards you want, at lower cost
Now in real life, most people have financial obligations and can't just fling paper around 'makin it rain', so that is why the phenomenon still exists. In a purely hypothetical world though, supposing you had a large sum of money at your disposal, no cards and you want to play all the formats, there should be absolutely no difference between a standard card, an extended card, legacy card or vintage card. Every card has its price, which includes an embedded time value (generally expressed as negative for standard/extended cards, positive for legacy/vintage cards), and if everything were priced accurately, all the choices should be equivalent.
So, in conclusion, if you are a rational trader you should never trade up if you are holding unrisky, semi-liquid cards that can be sold off for value at some point in time. However, given the way the forums work, and certainly the way things work in RL trading, it is practical from a trading standpoint to continue to ask for trade-ups on the receiving end, because if you ever want to trade 7 small cards for a big one, it is difficult to find a counterparty who doesn't ask for this premium.
Did I really just write all that when I could have simply said 'don't trade up, but accept trade-ups'? Ummm yeah I just find the reasoning irrational, but oh well.
P.S. Josh, send me your aggro-loam list, I would love to try it out!
@PsiJet: Mean? I think you mean to say 'balanced' ^^
No, I mean 'mean' as in 'cruel' and 'evil', LOL. It's no big deal though. I have a feeling that it will happen so it's not that huge of a deal.
@jlm: I would like to see this list of yours as well.
NOTE: I am currently working on a listing of packaging/shipping supplies that will be blogged and linked to the guild. If you have anything that you wish added to it, please feel free to list them here and I will add them.
EDIT: Okay - just to let you all know, the rules are now currently firm and in place. I do not foresee any changes forthcoming with it. If you are a current member, you do not have to update/do anything except PM me your Email Address and Date of Birth. This can be done whenever you ultimately feel, but the sooner the better. (I also promise that your information will NOT be put on any list! I hate spam with a passion too).
EDIT #2: Also, if anyone uses a particular company for products that they use for either shipping or making sure their shipment is safe and secure, please let me know so I can add it into the list.
EDIT #3: Please welcome flat_head to the guild. He is on probationary guild membership until 06/25/2011 and trades in MTGO. He has been advised to at least get his inactive trade/sell thread activated again. So either way, if you trade in MTGO, feel free to check with them!
MTGO: flathead
Advantages of MTGO over paper magic
Regardless, you do trade/sell, and even though it's mostly paper, it does count. Just remember though that all applicable rules apply.
@flat head: Welcome, and push that bid-ask mentality here on the forums
Stoneforges have always been cheaper online because they're a 3-of in the Exiler Legacy precon, but now with the announcement of the event decks they seem to be dropping even further. I saw foil stoneforges going online for 13-15 tickets the other day, and today there's a classified ad offering a foil playset for 40.
I missed the boat on preordering the event decks, but they might not be as scarce when they release as they are now. I know for a fact that Newbury Comics all over Boston had the previous set of event decks, as well as other comic stores (not just LGSs). Not sure if buying them there to flip would be worth it, but it'll be interesting to see how much retailers jack prices up for the decks.
MTGO: flathead
Advantages of MTGO over paper magic
ban on you weaver
Woot freshmen :p.
http://forum.iwtso.com/index.php
http://iwtso.com/
Join our forum and site to Watch Simpsons free, and discuss a whole lot of other things on our forum.
We are about to have a competition on our forum, join for a chance to win $75
wwab is the best mafia player ever
Want to trade with me?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=294434
EDIT: I've been approved for the Auction House (yay!) LOL. That gives me pretty much full access to the Market Street area (as I am sure most of you are as well).
I wish I could easily upload a spreadsheet in forum code! Let's start with mental misstep. the spread between the lowest static sell offer (6) and the highest buy offer (1) should narrow soon. I think eventually you'll be able to get them for 2 tickets because as popular as legacy is on paper, it hasn't quite reached that level online yet. Sword of War and Peace seems to have a bit of a bubble going - Highest buy offer I'm seeing right now is 25 tickets, while sell offers are typically in the 30's and as high as 60 tickets! The paper version goes for $20-$22 at many online dealers. The high bid for Batterskull is 25 and the low ask is 30, so the spread isn't nearly as wide there. Compare that to the paper batterskull which can be had for $18.
What does this tell us? Even with information from recent paper tournaments factored in, prerelease events definitely get a bit of a bubble going online as well. I'm going to be busting open an online prerelease later today, and good pulls to anyone else who will!
Other comments to avoid a doublepoast:
- Surgical Extraction is not that great of a card, but there are many people still offering to buy it at 3 tickets. It's really not that much better than memoricide, which is going for bulk rates right now. If you open any online, just dump them and pick them up for your sideboards later if you must.
- Spellskite is one card to keep if you open it, or if you can get it for cheaper than the $9-$10 it commands on paper. The high bid is 7 while I can't even see asks on the classifieds right now, which means people must be holding on to them for dear life. It's playable in nearly every deck and I think it'll be particularly good in Block Constructed.
- Speaking of Block Constructed, it's actually a format online, even before Wizards said that organizers could run it at FNM. The online support for Block Constructed led to cards like Hero of Bladehold reaching 15 tickets (~$15), much higher than the paper version. Hot cards in Block Constructed are also great cards to watch for possible post-rotation spikes, as the Block decks begin to form the backbone of the next standard metagame.
MTGO: flathead
Advantages of MTGO over paper magic
A bot is basically a program that automates trading for online accounts. Online dealers will stock accounts with cards and assign a bot program to them, which will handle trading with any other online players that want to deal with them. I understand most dealers use the mtgolibrary bot, it's possible to write one yourself or acquire a bot from another source, but I would be wary of those as one of the main ways accounts are "hacked" is when someone gets a bot from someone else and that bot plunders all the cards from an account for the original bot writer. Besides that, accounts are pretty much secure as long as you are smart with your password.
There's a lot of trading going on online for a few reasons. First, trades can happen instantaneously and there are fewer transaction costs (shipping etc). Second, all packs opened online go into the same marketplace, unlike paper where some cards will go to SCG and some will sit in LGS binders that don't deal online. Third, the classified ads system, primitive as it is (and jesus christ it is cave painting status compared to what it could be for this marketplace :sadface:) allows you to view and compare prices for all cards very quickly, and it's visible to everyone.
MTGO: flathead
Advantages of MTGO over paper magic
1. Most people would rather trade for tix (which are about 95¢ each, so not even full value)
2. You don't get to physically OWN any of the cards unless you have a complete set of a block, which means you'd be looking at spending more (at least last I heard).
3. People are worse about attempting to low-ball you.
4. There is no moderation to the trades.
The upside:
1. It is instant/fast and does reduce the need for shipping.
2. You can 'technically' own a card that you couldn't afford otherwise.
3. You can purchase your boosters for drafts/tournaments with tix.
I mean, you can take it for what it's worth, and there are probably a few people who prefer to trade virtual cards v. real cards, but I much prefer to have cards in hand.
There is no reserve list online, and that's pretty much the only reason I got into playing legacy there - one of the online legacy precons has 3 karakas and the entire Death and Taxes core, just need to unbudget it with Wastelands, Swords etc.
@PsiJet
Good Save!
Hahaha, actually, legally, you don't own the cards at all. It's data on WOTC's servers. I guess I'm sort of OK with that just because I don't really maintain a paper collection anymore - getting to the game store on Friday night is a bit of a pain and I don't even like my LGS too much anyway. MTGO does lack some of that social interaction with Magic, which is why I still enjoy going to paper prereleases.
People low-ball, but I find it's easier to come to deals quickly overall. Trades aren't moderated, but the trading system is pretty secure (no worries about "sending first" and such) so I'm a big fan of that. One other advantage is you never need to worry about card conditions
MTGO: flathead
Advantages of MTGO over paper magic
UPDATE: I had a request put in for the avatar/sig shop for a better looking banner for our guild. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do!
I cannot stress enough my gratitude to w1lll for creating it!
flat_head what's your mtgo account. I dont go on there much anymore, mostly to play an edh or mormir. I got cards Im looking to give away, nothing high dollar but nonetheless its free.
My Trades