I suppose one might say that if multiclassing were a high priority mechanic. Otherwise, I'm highly inclined to disagree.
By the way, have you heard of gestalt play rules for 3.5? You would love them, and it would really resolve your woes with multiclassing in that edition. It's one of my favorite variant rules. Right now, Josh is running a gestalt game where I am running a Warblade/Vedic, and it's a blast.
I have not heard of that rules vairant. Could you please explain it to me?
You have two sides. Each side is a class. Let's say you pick wizard and fighter. That means as a level 12 character, you'll be considered a level 12 wizard, complete with all the options a level 12 wizard has (spells, bonus feats, etc), and everything a level 12 fighter has, too. When it comes to things both sides have, such as BAB, saves, HP, skill points per level, and the like, you take the best of both, which means you would have a character with full BAB, a d10 hit die, and good Fort like a fighter, but the good Will of a wizard, and the class skills as both.
It's a more high powered option, but it's damn fun and it is the only way I'll play a character that is multiclass. In order to be balanced, you need to make sure that A) power level is adjusted accordingly, and B) everyone is doing it to maintain fairness, but it works well in games where you have a smaller party, for higher power players who still like things to remain more balanced, and for people who really like to try out different classes but just don't have the time, opportunities, or energy to be running multiple characters at once.
There are more rules on it (I think Unearthed Arcana has it, but there are a few sites online that have detailed rules as well, I just can't think of them offhand and I'm too lazy to Google them), but that's about it.
Edit: Curse your witch's speed, Lollycar!
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
Wow, I've never actually seen those before and it looks hilarious is quite fun (assuming the DM sets up a balanced game). I'm a complete sucker for really powerful stuff, but I often try to hold back a little in the interest of making the game more fun. It seems like a gestalt campaign would let you do something that feels completely broken without actually unbalancing the game and/or making it unfun.
*Krashbot calls dibs on a slot in the unlikely event that someone starts a gestalt campaign in the P&PI.*
Wow, I've never actually seen those before and it looks hilarious is quite fun (assuming the DM sets up a balanced game). I'm a complete sucker for really powerful stuff, but I often try to hold back a little in the interest of making the game more fun. It seems like a gestalt campaign would let you do something that feels completely broken without actually unbalancing the game and/or making it unfun.
*Krashbot calls dibs on a slot in the unlikely event that someone starts a gestalt campaign in the P&PI.*
I had actually started one some time ago, but it just died out, like that sort of thing does.
I would start a new one, but honestly, I have enough on my plate. It is great fun. Some character combinations are amazing, others are just interesting, and some are less potent, but okay.
The key is to try not to stretch yourself too far- for example, it may sound fun to be a rogue/cleric, but consider that with those two classes, your role will be split up in such a way that it would be hard to do one without neglecting the other a bit- unless your party has another healer on hand.
Party balance is important to consider, but due to the openness it is easy to fill your roles- even if Wizard/Fighter is not the most powerful combination (since being a Wizard at low levels and being a fighter at low levels doesn't really synergize at all), but if all your bases are already covered, you can do it, flesh it out, and just worry about having a good time.
Some amazing combos are Favored Soul/Paladin, Bard/Swashbuckler, Rogue/Fighter, Ranger/Scout (particularly archer ranger)... there are a lot of great ones, really, but those are some that are exceptionally amazing... favored soul/paladin being one of the best possible ones.
Meanwhile, Druid does fairly mediocre. It's basically a gestalt class all on its own, so it doesn't really have synergy with anything in particular. it's still viable, though.
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
I had actually started one some time ago, but it just died out, like that sort of thing does.
I would start a new one, but honestly, I have enough on my plate. It is great fun. Some character combinations are amazing, others are just interesting, and some are less potent, but okay.
It looks like the one you started was before I signed up for anything there. Also, seeing as I didn't know the gestalt rules until today, I may not have joined anyway.
As for specific class combinations, my immediate thought was "I should try a Fighter/Sorcerer" but then I realized that I basically already have one. So, I figure I'd probably go with a different combination, but I honestly don't know what it would be. I'd probably consider Fighter/Rogue as that could be a really fun combination and I might take a look at what I could do with a Warlock/Cleric build.
Ok, the more I think about this, the more I really want to play one of these.
I had actually started one some time ago, but it just died out, like that sort of thing does.
Yeah, whatever happened to that? I was kind of disappointed, waiting months and months for my cue.
I don't want to be involved in two campaigns at once, but when the godslayer one is over, I definitely want to do something gestalt. Maybe gestalt-y and epic-y. I could also handle most of the aspects of a campaign from the seat of DM, though I might nevertheless like some help on the finer mechanical details. I've always been very good with plot formulation and such...
...
O HAI GUYS
The things that happen when I start trollin' the fora.
It looks like the one you started was before I signed up for anything there. Also, seeing as I didn't know the gestalt rules until today, I may not have joined anyway.
As for specific class combinations, my immediate thought was "I should try a Fighter/Sorcerer" but then I realized that I basically already have one. So, I figure I'd probably go with a different combination, but I honestly don't know what it would be. I'd probably consider Fighter/Rogue as that could be a really fun combination and I might take a look at what I could do with a Warlock/Cleric build.
Ok, the more I think about this, the more I really want to play one of these.
Yeah, it really does spark the imagination. One of the combos I like is rogue/cleric, especially if it's a cleric of Olidammara. Favored Soul/Sorcerer is fairly awesome, and one of my favorites. I loved my favored soul/sorcerer character, he was just spells in pants, it was amazing.
Yeah, whatever happened to that? I was kind of disappointed, waiting months and months for my cue.
I don't want to be involved in two campaigns at once, but when the godslayer one is over, I definitely want to do something gestalt. Maybe gestalt-y and epic-y. I could also handle most of the aspects of a campaign from the seat of DM, though I might nevertheless like some help on the finer mechanical details. I've always been very good with plot formulation and such...
...
O HAI GUYS
The things that happen when I start trollin' the fora.
Well, that's just the nature of the beast, I guess. It's pretty common for a campaign not to pan out. There were a lot of people involved, and to be honest, that's hard for me to handle. When people stop being as involved as they were in a campaign that isn't as revolving-door, that can really trip things up.
If I were ever to do it again (and given all the preparation and work I put into it, I would definitely like to do it), I would probably want to do it with a much smaller group- 3, 4 players tops, and with a lower point buy to create more of a sense of direness.
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
Thinking back, I think the campaign was probably not entirely appropriate for me. I'm the kind of gamer that is into very specific avenues of fantasy for very specific reasons, and as we discussed those themes weren't really compatible for the plausibility of the setting and player interaction. Then again, I could also make an evil character that would fit a lot better... I'm just not entirely sure you guys want to see me play an evil character.
If someone wants to collaborate with me on something in advance, I'm a font of ideas. :s
Thinking back, I think the campaign was probably not entirely appropriate for me. I'm the kind of gamer that is into very specific avenues of fantasy for very specific reasons, and as we discussed those themes weren't really compatible for the plausibility of the setting and player interaction. Then again, I could also make an evil character that would fit a lot better... I'm just not entirely sure you guys want to see me play an evil character.
If someone wants to collaborate with me on something in advance, I'm a font of ideas. :s
Hahaha.
I remember specifically making that statement to you when you submitted your first few concepts, and you were pretty resistant to that notion. So now I have to chuckle a bit after reading that.
Yeah, highly planar, strict morality, and higher powered PCs were not a great idea in that game- it was supposed to be more of a gothic fantasy, with gestalt A) covering missing party roles, and B) providing a solution to the reduced amount of equipment.
I'm a bit of a weird D&D player in the sense that I like higher power, but tend to avoid powerful spellcasting and a lot of magic equipment- I usually tone both down. So I guess you could say I'm a low-power power gamer, which is probably why I found my happy niche in the d20 Modern franchise. Speaking of which, my d20 Future/Past fusion campaign had been on the top 5 campaign list on Obsidian Portal since the November/December period, and it just now finally got bumped down. I had a pretty good run, I guess!
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
I don't want to be involved in two campaigns at once, but when the godslayer one is over, I definitely want to do something gestalt. Maybe gestalt-y and epic-y. I could also handle most of the aspects of a campaign from the seat of DM, though I might nevertheless like some help on the finer mechanical details. I've always been very good with plot formulation and such...
There's nothing to say you can't be in many campaigns at the same time, unless you personally can't handle it for time reasons or the like. I'm currently in five separate campaigns at the moment (and another one that doesn't really count). At this point I'm extremely hesitant to join any more campaigns just because it's starting to get really difficult to keep up with the various personalities of my characters and keep the RP up, but otherwise it seems to be working fine.
If I were ever to do it again (and given all the preparation and work I put into it, I would definitely like to do it), I would probably want to do it with a much smaller group- 3, 4 players tops, and with a lower point buy to create more of a sense of direness.
Well given the rules of gestalt campaign it sounds like that would be more interesting anyway. I know in general campaigns are a little more fun when you only have 3-5 people (as opposed to the 8-10 we have in Godslayer War). And lowering the power level with lower point buy could really make things more interesting.
However, if you're doing that I would recommend starting at a reasonable level. I don't know what level you started the last one at, but low point buy really lends itself to people randomly dying at very low levels from that bugbear that happened to roll really well in one round.
There's nothing to say you can't be in many campaigns at the same time, unless you personally can't handle it for time reasons or the like. I'm currently in five separate campaigns at the moment (and another one that doesn't really count). At this point I'm extremely hesitant to join any more campaigns just because it's starting to get really difficult to keep up with the various personalities of my characters and keep the RP up, but otherwise it seems to be working fine.
Well given the rules of gestalt campaign it sounds like that would be more interesting anyway. I know in general campaigns are a little more fun when you only have 3-5 people (as opposed to the 8-10 we have in Godslayer War). And lowering the power level with lower point buy could really make things more interesting.
However, if you're doing that I would recommend starting at a reasonable level. I don't know what level you started the last one at, but low point buy really lends itself to people randomly dying at very low levels from that bugbear that happened to roll really well in one round.
Last one started at 9. That's really the sweet spot for me, mechanically. Classes have access to the bulk of what makes them what they are, casters get their much needed level 5 spells (including the imperative raise dead), and yet things are not to the point where you are tossing moons at each other.
It's nice for me, I think, because characters are pretty well defined by roles and customization choices, but there are still plenty of interesting challenges available.
It would still be on the Mamelon point buy, which is terribly generous anyway. Probably like, 24 to 28 points, full equipment up to wealth per level guidelines (barring a few items choices for the sake of preserving the setting integrity). A lot of the same character gen guidelines would apply, I would think.
Unfortunately, with 3 offline campaigns, Godslayer, and a few sessions of Freaking Elves left, I probably won't have time or energy to do something like this for a bit. But who knows, I tend to change my mind on a whim.
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
I remember specifically making that statement to you when you submitted your first few concepts, and you were pretty resistant to that notion. So now I have to chuckle a bit after reading that.
Well, I knew you were right, of course. I was so excited to see a gestalt campaign going on that I was disappointed that I wouldn't get to play the kind of character that I'm really interested in playing.
Yeah, highly planar, strict morality, and higher powered PCs were not a great idea in that game- it was supposed to be more of a gothic fantasy, with gestalt A) covering missing party roles, and B) providing a solution to the reduced amount of equipment.
I'm a bit of a weird D&D player in the sense that I like higher power, but tend to avoid powerful spellcasting and a lot of magic equipment- I usually tone both down. So I guess you could say I'm a low-power power gamer, which is probably why I found my happy niche in the d20 Modern franchise. Speaking of which, my d20 Future/Past fusion campaign had been on the top 5 campaign list on Obsidian Portal since the November/December period, and it just now finally got bumped down. I had a pretty good run, I guess!
I don't like magic items at all, I guess that's what attracts me to VoP. I hate the idea of people having no actual personal power and deriving all of their abilities from extrinsic objects. Especially when it comes to things like ancient artifacts whose power level is beyond the ken of any contemporary mage... I find that kind of theme of the degradation of magic to be depressing.
There's nothing to say you can't be in many campaigns at the same time, unless you personally can't handle it for time reasons or the like. I'm currently in five separate campaigns at the moment (and another one that doesn't really count). At this point I'm extremely hesitant to join any more campaigns just because it's starting to get really difficult to keep up with the various personalities of my characters and keep the RP up, but otherwise it seems to be working fine.
I could probably handle one or even two campaigns just fine, but I would hate for my participation level to become crappier trying to maintain two situations as opposed to quality performance in just one. It's also the case that I'm busier now than I have ever been in my life, so it might not be a good idea.
I hate the idea of people having no actual personal power and deriving all of their abilities from extrinsic objects.
God, me too. That's why we tend to drop back on it. When we do get magic equipment, it's usually just something that provides support to something a character could already do (weapon and armor enhancements, rings of protection, cloaks of charisma- but lower end cloaks due to the higher stats), as opposed to something like "here, put these boots on, random wizard. It gives you evasion, smite evil, +20 AC, and twice a day you can use it to become a vampire dwarf!"
Josh (ethersphere if you aren't familiar) actually derived a fix around it in our current game. Characters have spiritual companions- some that are just contracted normally, some that are from past lives, etc (the campaign is highly based in Hindu mythology). Each level, we get a sum of points, which are spent on different aspects of those spiritual guides, which conveys a certain bonus to the character. These abilities emulate equipment abilities of all kinds, but also grant spell-like abilities, skill bonuses, and other things. Meanwhile, aside from mundane equipment, scrolls, potions, and consumable items, there is no magic equipment whatsoever. Want a ring of wizardry III? Put points into your guide's Arcane Lore aspect. Want to boost your CON? Throw points into Vital Soul. Want to make your sword a +2 sword with flaming and keen? Invest in Gift of Arms, Flaming Spirit, and Keen Spirit.
I could probably handle one or even two campaigns just fine, but I would hate for my participation level to become crappier trying to maintain two situations as opposed to quality performance in just one. It's also the case that I'm busier now than I have ever been in my life, so it might not be a good idea.
You know, as a DM and as a player, I would much rather not have a player than have a player who is overextended. It's important to know your limits, and I'm glad when people do, because when you are trying to get your foot in the door in a campaign you can't really afford to be playing- either due to time constraints or a lack of creative energy from having too many other characters/campaigns- it not only makes it harder for you to enjoy the game, but it makes it harder for everyone else. I can't tell you how much it irks me to have a player who really shouldn't be playing and knows it, but insists on doing it anyway and then just drags everything down because they are tired, bored, tapped out, or just plain missing.
P.S. Mr Stuff, since I see you watching-
There is a new DS RPG coming out called Subarashiki Kono Sekai (renamed The World Ends With You in America) that is set exclusively in Shibuya. It focuses a lot on Japanese youth culture and fashion trends, and basically is looking to be a very unique, very stylish game. I just thought it looked like the sort of game you might enjoy.
In the book I'm writing, there are magical items, but the only people who use them are the ones who otherwise would have no power whatsoever, and it's at the low, low price of their eternal soul.
...Basically, there's two ways to get what might be the equivalent of spellcasting abilities. You can tap into channels of divine energy provided by emanations that feed into the material world, or you can make pacts with spiritual entities that do not have your best interest in mind. The latter use "magic items," the former do not and in fact live quite ascetic lives. And the two groups don't get along well at all, to put it lightly. The latter mainly serve as one of a handful of antagonistic forces in the story given the whole oppressive theocracy they've got going on.
So I guess it's okay if the option of magic items exists, just as long as the alternate options are similarly accessible and mechanically palatable.
Josh (ethersphere if you aren't familiar) actually derived a fix around it in our current game. Characters have spiritual companions- some that are just contracted normally, some that are from past lives, etc (the campaign is highly based in Hindu mythology). Each level, we get a sum of points, which are spent on different aspects of those spiritual guides, which conveys a certain bonus to the character. These abilities emulate equipment abilities of all kinds, but also grant spell-like abilities, skill bonuses, and other things. Meanwhile, aside from mundane equipment, scrolls, potions, and consumable items, there is no magic equipment whatsoever. Want a ring of wizardry III? Put points into your guide's Arcane Lore aspect. Want to boost your CON? Throw points into Vital Soul. Want to make your sword a +2 sword with flaming and keen? Invest in Gift of Arms, Flaming Spirit, and Keen Spirit.
That's a really interesting fix. It sounds like a significantly different game from the D&D that is chalk full of crazy items that do insane things, but it still sounds very fun. Definitely something I'd like to try some time (though not now, see below).
You know, as a DM and as a player, I would much rather not have a player than have a player who is overextended. It's important to know your limits, and I'm glad when people do, because when you are trying to get your foot in the door in a campaign you can't really afford to be playing- either due to time constraints or a lack of creative energy from having too many other characters/campaigns- it not only makes it harder for you to enjoy the game, but it makes it harder for everyone else. I can't tell you how much it irks me to have a player who really shouldn't be playing and knows it, but insists on doing it anyway and then just drags everything down because they are tired, bored, tapped out, or just plain missing.
I was going to try to hold myself to 3-4 campaigns (which is something I feel I can handle and really play well in all of them), but right now I have 5. One of them actually takes very little RP (Alacar's Half-Life), so that takes a little strain off, and one of my characters is naturally quiet (Tanth's Gaean Guerillas) which is somewhat easier to RP. Also, my fifth campaign I kind of got sucked in because I already had an idea I wanted to play and Caex needed a replacement. Still, at this point, I'm going to try to exercise some self-control and not join any more campaigns until one or two of the ones I'm in now either ends or dies.
On a different note, it's quite late and I have to get up tomorrow so I'm heading to sleep now. Tomorrow (unfortunately) looks to be quite busy, so there's a good chance I won't be able to log on. As a result, I'll probably see you folks on Tuesday. *Krashbot waves goodnight.*
In the book I'm writing, there are magical items, but the only people who use them are the ones who otherwise would have no power whatsoever, and it's at the low, low price of their eternal soul.
...Basically, there's two ways to get what might be the equivalent of spellcasting abilities. You can tap into channels of divine energy provided by emanations that feed into the material world, or you can make pacts with spiritual entities that do not have your best interest in mind. The latter use "magic items," the former do not and in fact live quite ascetic lives. And the two groups don't get along well at all, to put it lightly. The latter mainly serve as one of a handful of antagonistic forces in the story given the whole oppressive theocracy they've got going on.
So I guess it's okay if the option of magic items exists, just as long as the alternate options are similarly accessible and mechanically palatable.
Well, I'm all for house rules and fixing issues you don't like, but at the same time, I think it's generally a good idea not to expect a horse to fly. Even if you remove magic items from the game, the mechanical concept of equipment is part of how the gameplay is balanced at all levels, so that's why we wanted to avoid anything as radical as restricting magic items to any one type of character. Of course, in fiction, it's a different story.
I don't mind magic items on principle, I just don't like shopping in D&D, and I resent feeling like my characters are nothing in the buff, so to speak. I also hate how easy it is for the wrong combination of equipment to allow a character to get out of hand, and for all my experience as a DM, I still have difficulty mitigating those types of issues. I don't want to seem like an arbitrary bully (shut up, Alacar) and take things away, but I also don't want to be so permissive that the players are basically sitting around describing how awesome they are while I continue throwing goombas out the proverbial pipe for them to squish.
I was going to try to hold myself to 3-4 campaigns (which is something I feel I can handle and really play well in all of them), but right now I have 5. One of them actually takes very little RP (Alacar's Half-Life), so that takes a little strain off, and one of my characters is naturally quite (Tanth's Gaean Guerillas) which is somewhat easier to RP. Also, my fifth campaign I kind of got sucked in because I already had an idea I wanted to play and Caex needed a replacement. Still, at this point, I'm going to try to exercise some self-control and not join any more campaigns until one or two of the ones I'm in now either ends or dies.
3-4 is doable. Right now, I'm running my d20 Future, playing in Josh's gestalt incarnum game, playing and helping develop Mamelon's True20 game, and doing two casual games- PbP on Godslayer, and Freaking Elves, which is mostly improv and not a tremendous taxation of my energies or time. More than that would probably start to wear on me, too.
That's a really interesting fix. It sounds like a significantly different game from the D&D that is chalk full of crazy items that do insane things, but it still sounds very fun. Definitely something I'd like to try some time (though not now, see below).
If anyone is interested, here's my character's "guide", called an Asura.
Purusha is an unknown entity that makes claims of being a powerful naga priest. During his life, he served under the Naga King, but was put to death for treason when he betrayed Ananta, the goddess of the naga, to their enemies among the raksasha. He was buried alive and branded with one hundred curses tattooed onto his hide. The curses strip him of his one true power and pride as a naga, his true name- the moniker Purusha, which means "demon" in Old Dharmic, is a title applied only to the most reviled naga heretics.
Purusha's agenda, primarily, is to use his knowledge of the Original Tongue to guide those who bear both a passion for knowledge and a foolish disregard for what should remain unknown towards uncovering his true name and allowing him to be reincarnated. Until then, he is but a mere Asura. While he is bonded to a mortal, he occasionally influences their speech by making them speak more harshly than normal, and the handwriting of his bonded individual is often small and quick, like a scribe's would typically be. He is clearly wicked, but pragmatic enough to know that helping even the virtuous can bring him closer to his reclamation.
Purusha offers the following aspects to his bonded individual.
Action Point Ability: Purusha can grant his bonded individual a +4 profane bonus to one of the following skills- Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), or Truespeak. This bonus lasts for 1 hour per character level the bonded individual possesses.
Wisdom Plus (6 levels, 3 pts per level): Increase Wisdom over time. Considered an enhancement bonus. Intelligence Plus (6 levels, 3 pts per level): Increase Intelligence over time. Considered an enhancement bonus. Force of Will (6 levels, 3 pts per level): Gain a bonus to Will saves over time. Considered an enhancement bonus. True Sagacity (10 levels, 1 pt per level): Gain an enhancement bonus to Truespeak. Pious Sagacity (10 levels, 1 pt per level): Gain an enhancement bonus to Knowledge: Religion. Ancient Sagacity (10 levels, 1 pt per level): Gain an enhancement bonus to Knowledge: History. Beckon Person (1 to invest, 1 pt per level afterward): Cast Beckon Person as a spell-like ability 1/day per 4 character levels (minimum 1). The default caster level is level 1, but it increases by 1 with each level. Lesser Truename Binding (9 to invest, 1 pt per level afterward): Cast Lesser Truename Binding as a spell-like ability 1/day per 4 character levels. The default caster level is level 9, but it increases by 1 with each level. Greater Truename Binding (17 to invest, 1 pt per level afterward): Cast Charm Person as a spell-like ability 1/day per 4 character levels. The default caster level is level 17, but it increases by 1 with each level. Hidden Alignment (1 level, 5 pts per level): Your alignment cannot be detected by effects that detect alignment, such as detect evil. Staff of Law (5 levels, 3 pt per level): Purusha's self defense abilities with a staff are conveyed to your weapon. Gain a +1 enhancement bonus per level. Naga-hide (5 levels, 3 pts per level): Purusha's natural defenses are granted to your armor. Gain a +1 enhancement bonus per level. Deflection Sphere (6 levels, 3 pts per level): Generate a sphere of protective energy that grants a +1 deflection bonus to AC per level. Loremaster (4 levels, 4 pts per level): Gain bonus spell slots depending on level. At level 1, you double your number of level 1 spell slots. At level 2, you double your level 1 and 2 spell slots, and so on until level 4. Scroll Scribing (9 levels, 1 pt per level): Each day, you can scribe a number of spell levels equal to your Scroll Scribing level into scrolls without paying the cost. You must still prepare the spells as per normal in order to scribe them. Cold Resistance (10 levels, 1 pt per level): You gain cold resistance equal to your level. Poison Resistance (8 levels, 1 pt per level): You gain a +1 bonus per level to Fortitude saves against poison. Summoner's Gravitas (10 levels, 1 pt per level): You gain a +1 bonus to CHA checks made to bind or call a summoned creature.
I don't really see the world of that story being converted into a d20 game for that reason. Though there are other potential "classes" that might make use of something like magical equipment, with different explanations. For example, it's entirely plausible for certain artificers to create equipment that, for technological reasons, grant you bonuses. And there are non-"spellcasters" that are able to manipulate their own composition to the extent of creating a fiery weapon, or something.
The main problem is that in the story, the concept of an item of power is sort of nonsense; it doesn't fit with the metaphysics of the setting. In the case of the item-bearing pact makers I mentioned above, it's not the fact that their artifacts or relics are supernatural so much as the spiritual entities involved humor the mortals. Any kind of supernatural effect in the universe is the discrete application of one mind's Will and its capacity to tap into the divine energy that permeates everything. Physical items, by definition, lack this capacity.
I think that in a "normal" D&D setting I wouldn't really restrict magic items at all, but I would let my players know that there are other options. I like the spiritual companion concept that you've described, and I think there are other possibilities also.
Warlock/Bard!!!! then multiclass to Warlock/Seeker of the Song or Eldricth Theurge/Seeker of the Song!!!! omg i so want a gestalt campaign now
Dual progression PrCs like Eldritch Theurge (or Mystic Theurge, or Arcane Trickster, or so on) are banned in gestalt, because they **** things up like crazy.
I think that in a "normal" D&D setting I wouldn't really restrict magic items at all, but I would let my players know that there are other options. I like the spiritual companion concept that you've described, and I think there are other possibilities also.
The asura thing only really works if you make sure that the economy of the game is lower. My character is level 7, and she's probably seen a grand total of 1000 gold pieces across her entire career, no exaggeration. Of course, on the other hand, a character with built in equipment doesn't really NEED gold... what are they gonna do? Buy a bunch of riding dogs, awaken them, and then abuse leadership?
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
One of the issues for my character in godslayer is the fact that VoP doesn't really do much for my spellcasting abilities. At level 25 I get to choose between bonus spells and martial ability, but nothing like a ring of wizardry. If I could take a feat or something that gave me a "holy guardian angel" or something to help with the spellcasting lag, that would be très cool.
Dual progression PrCs like Eldritch Theurge (or Mystic Theurge, or Arcane Trickster, or so on) are banned in gestalt, because they **** things up like crazy.
ahhhh.... but that showed so much promise.... well at least theres nothing stopping the enlightened soul/seeker combination
does melodic casting let me use spell like abilities with verbal components together with bardic music?
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
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That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
I have not heard of that rules vairant. Could you please explain it to me?
Photon, feel free to summarize.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
It works a lot like 2e multiclassing.
You have two sides. Each side is a class. Let's say you pick wizard and fighter. That means as a level 12 character, you'll be considered a level 12 wizard, complete with all the options a level 12 wizard has (spells, bonus feats, etc), and everything a level 12 fighter has, too. When it comes to things both sides have, such as BAB, saves, HP, skill points per level, and the like, you take the best of both, which means you would have a character with full BAB, a d10 hit die, and good Fort like a fighter, but the good Will of a wizard, and the class skills as both.
It's a more high powered option, but it's damn fun and it is the only way I'll play a character that is multiclass. In order to be balanced, you need to make sure that A) power level is adjusted accordingly, and B) everyone is doing it to maintain fairness, but it works well in games where you have a smaller party, for higher power players who still like things to remain more balanced, and for people who really like to try out different classes but just don't have the time, opportunities, or energy to be running multiple characters at once.
There are more rules on it (I think Unearthed Arcana has it, but there are a few sites online that have detailed rules as well, I just can't think of them offhand and I'm too lazy to Google them), but that's about it.
Edit: Curse your witch's speed, Lollycar!
Wow, I've never actually seen those before and it looks hilarious is quite fun (assuming the DM sets up a balanced game). I'm a complete sucker for really powerful stuff, but I often try to hold back a little in the interest of making the game more fun. It seems like a gestalt campaign would let you do something that feels completely broken without actually unbalancing the game and/or making it unfun.
*Krashbot calls dibs on a slot in the unlikely event that someone starts a gestalt campaign in the P&PI.*
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
I had actually started one some time ago, but it just died out, like that sort of thing does.
I would start a new one, but honestly, I have enough on my plate. It is great fun. Some character combinations are amazing, others are just interesting, and some are less potent, but okay.
The key is to try not to stretch yourself too far- for example, it may sound fun to be a rogue/cleric, but consider that with those two classes, your role will be split up in such a way that it would be hard to do one without neglecting the other a bit- unless your party has another healer on hand.
Party balance is important to consider, but due to the openness it is easy to fill your roles- even if Wizard/Fighter is not the most powerful combination (since being a Wizard at low levels and being a fighter at low levels doesn't really synergize at all), but if all your bases are already covered, you can do it, flesh it out, and just worry about having a good time.
Some amazing combos are Favored Soul/Paladin, Bard/Swashbuckler, Rogue/Fighter, Ranger/Scout (particularly archer ranger)... there are a lot of great ones, really, but those are some that are exceptionally amazing... favored soul/paladin being one of the best possible ones.
Meanwhile, Druid does fairly mediocre. It's basically a gestalt class all on its own, so it doesn't really have synergy with anything in particular. it's still viable, though.
It looks like the one you started was before I signed up for anything there. Also, seeing as I didn't know the gestalt rules until today, I may not have joined anyway.
As for specific class combinations, my immediate thought was "I should try a Fighter/Sorcerer" but then I realized that I basically already have one. So, I figure I'd probably go with a different combination, but I honestly don't know what it would be. I'd probably consider Fighter/Rogue as that could be a really fun combination and I might take a look at what I could do with a Warlock/Cleric build.
Ok, the more I think about this, the more I really want to play one of these.
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
Yeah, whatever happened to that? I was kind of disappointed, waiting months and months for my cue.
I don't want to be involved in two campaigns at once, but when the godslayer one is over, I definitely want to do something gestalt. Maybe gestalt-y and epic-y. I could also handle most of the aspects of a campaign from the seat of DM, though I might nevertheless like some help on the finer mechanical details. I've always been very good with plot formulation and such...
...
O HAI GUYS
The things that happen when I start trollin' the fora.
Yeah, it really does spark the imagination. One of the combos I like is rogue/cleric, especially if it's a cleric of Olidammara. Favored Soul/Sorcerer is fairly awesome, and one of my favorites. I loved my favored soul/sorcerer character, he was just spells in pants, it was amazing.
Yes, it was.
Well, that's just the nature of the beast, I guess. It's pretty common for a campaign not to pan out. There were a lot of people involved, and to be honest, that's hard for me to handle. When people stop being as involved as they were in a campaign that isn't as revolving-door, that can really trip things up.
If I were ever to do it again (and given all the preparation and work I put into it, I would definitely like to do it), I would probably want to do it with a much smaller group- 3, 4 players tops, and with a lower point buy to create more of a sense of direness.
If someone wants to collaborate with me on something in advance, I'm a font of ideas. :s
Hahaha.
I remember specifically making that statement to you when you submitted your first few concepts, and you were pretty resistant to that notion. So now I have to chuckle a bit after reading that.
Yeah, highly planar, strict morality, and higher powered PCs were not a great idea in that game- it was supposed to be more of a gothic fantasy, with gestalt A) covering missing party roles, and B) providing a solution to the reduced amount of equipment.
I'm a bit of a weird D&D player in the sense that I like higher power, but tend to avoid powerful spellcasting and a lot of magic equipment- I usually tone both down. So I guess you could say I'm a low-power power gamer, which is probably why I found my happy niche in the d20 Modern franchise. Speaking of which, my d20 Future/Past fusion campaign had been on the top 5 campaign list on Obsidian Portal since the November/December period, and it just now finally got bumped down. I had a pretty good run, I guess!
There's nothing to say you can't be in many campaigns at the same time, unless you personally can't handle it for time reasons or the like. I'm currently in five separate campaigns at the moment (and another one that doesn't really count). At this point I'm extremely hesitant to join any more campaigns just because it's starting to get really difficult to keep up with the various personalities of my characters and keep the RP up, but otherwise it seems to be working fine.
Well given the rules of gestalt campaign it sounds like that would be more interesting anyway. I know in general campaigns are a little more fun when you only have 3-5 people (as opposed to the 8-10 we have in Godslayer War). And lowering the power level with lower point buy could really make things more interesting.
However, if you're doing that I would recommend starting at a reasonable level. I don't know what level you started the last one at, but low point buy really lends itself to people randomly dying at very low levels from that bugbear that happened to roll really well in one round.
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
Last one started at 9. That's really the sweet spot for me, mechanically. Classes have access to the bulk of what makes them what they are, casters get their much needed level 5 spells (including the imperative raise dead), and yet things are not to the point where you are tossing moons at each other.
It's nice for me, I think, because characters are pretty well defined by roles and customization choices, but there are still plenty of interesting challenges available.
It would still be on the Mamelon point buy, which is terribly generous anyway. Probably like, 24 to 28 points, full equipment up to wealth per level guidelines (barring a few items choices for the sake of preserving the setting integrity). A lot of the same character gen guidelines would apply, I would think.
Unfortunately, with 3 offline campaigns, Godslayer, and a few sessions of Freaking Elves left, I probably won't have time or energy to do something like this for a bit. But who knows, I tend to change my mind on a whim.
Well, I knew you were right, of course. I was so excited to see a gestalt campaign going on that I was disappointed that I wouldn't get to play the kind of character that I'm really interested in playing.
I don't like magic items at all, I guess that's what attracts me to VoP. I hate the idea of people having no actual personal power and deriving all of their abilities from extrinsic objects. Especially when it comes to things like ancient artifacts whose power level is beyond the ken of any contemporary mage... I find that kind of theme of the degradation of magic to be depressing.
I could probably handle one or even two campaigns just fine, but I would hate for my participation level to become crappier trying to maintain two situations as opposed to quality performance in just one. It's also the case that I'm busier now than I have ever been in my life, so it might not be a good idea.
Josh (ethersphere if you aren't familiar) actually derived a fix around it in our current game. Characters have spiritual companions- some that are just contracted normally, some that are from past lives, etc (the campaign is highly based in Hindu mythology). Each level, we get a sum of points, which are spent on different aspects of those spiritual guides, which conveys a certain bonus to the character. These abilities emulate equipment abilities of all kinds, but also grant spell-like abilities, skill bonuses, and other things. Meanwhile, aside from mundane equipment, scrolls, potions, and consumable items, there is no magic equipment whatsoever. Want a ring of wizardry III? Put points into your guide's Arcane Lore aspect. Want to boost your CON? Throw points into Vital Soul. Want to make your sword a +2 sword with flaming and keen? Invest in Gift of Arms, Flaming Spirit, and Keen Spirit.
You know, as a DM and as a player, I would much rather not have a player than have a player who is overextended. It's important to know your limits, and I'm glad when people do, because when you are trying to get your foot in the door in a campaign you can't really afford to be playing- either due to time constraints or a lack of creative energy from having too many other characters/campaigns- it not only makes it harder for you to enjoy the game, but it makes it harder for everyone else. I can't tell you how much it irks me to have a player who really shouldn't be playing and knows it, but insists on doing it anyway and then just drags everything down because they are tired, bored, tapped out, or just plain missing.
P.S. Mr Stuff, since I see you watching-
There is a new DS RPG coming out called Subarashiki Kono Sekai (renamed The World Ends With You in America) that is set exclusively in Shibuya. It focuses a lot on Japanese youth culture and fashion trends, and basically is looking to be a very unique, very stylish game. I just thought it looked like the sort of game you might enjoy.
In the book I'm writing, there are magical items, but the only people who use them are the ones who otherwise would have no power whatsoever, and it's at the low, low price of their eternal soul.
...Basically, there's two ways to get what might be the equivalent of spellcasting abilities. You can tap into channels of divine energy provided by emanations that feed into the material world, or you can make pacts with spiritual entities that do not have your best interest in mind. The latter use "magic items," the former do not and in fact live quite ascetic lives. And the two groups don't get along well at all, to put it lightly. The latter mainly serve as one of a handful of antagonistic forces in the story given the whole oppressive theocracy they've got going on.
So I guess it's okay if the option of magic items exists, just as long as the alternate options are similarly accessible and mechanically palatable.
That's a really interesting fix. It sounds like a significantly different game from the D&D that is chalk full of crazy items that do insane things, but it still sounds very fun. Definitely something I'd like to try some time (though not now, see below).
I was going to try to hold myself to 3-4 campaigns (which is something I feel I can handle and really play well in all of them), but right now I have 5. One of them actually takes very little RP (Alacar's Half-Life), so that takes a little strain off, and one of my characters is naturally quiet (Tanth's Gaean Guerillas) which is somewhat easier to RP. Also, my fifth campaign I kind of got sucked in because I already had an idea I wanted to play and Caex needed a replacement. Still, at this point, I'm going to try to exercise some self-control and not join any more campaigns until one or two of the ones I'm in now either ends or dies.
On a different note, it's quite late and I have to get up tomorrow so I'm heading to sleep now. Tomorrow (unfortunately) looks to be quite busy, so there's a good chance I won't be able to log on. As a result, I'll probably see you folks on Tuesday.
*Krashbot waves goodnight.*
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
Well, I'm all for house rules and fixing issues you don't like, but at the same time, I think it's generally a good idea not to expect a horse to fly. Even if you remove magic items from the game, the mechanical concept of equipment is part of how the gameplay is balanced at all levels, so that's why we wanted to avoid anything as radical as restricting magic items to any one type of character. Of course, in fiction, it's a different story.
I don't mind magic items on principle, I just don't like shopping in D&D, and I resent feeling like my characters are nothing in the buff, so to speak. I also hate how easy it is for the wrong combination of equipment to allow a character to get out of hand, and for all my experience as a DM, I still have difficulty mitigating those types of issues. I don't want to seem like an arbitrary bully (shut up, Alacar) and take things away, but I also don't want to be so permissive that the players are basically sitting around describing how awesome they are while I continue throwing goombas out the proverbial pipe for them to squish.
3-4 is doable. Right now, I'm running my d20 Future, playing in Josh's gestalt incarnum game, playing and helping develop Mamelon's True20 game, and doing two casual games- PbP on Godslayer, and Freaking Elves, which is mostly improv and not a tremendous taxation of my energies or time. More than that would probably start to wear on me, too.
If anyone is interested, here's my character's "guide", called an Asura.
Purusha is an unknown entity that makes claims of being a powerful naga priest. During his life, he served under the Naga King, but was put to death for treason when he betrayed Ananta, the goddess of the naga, to their enemies among the raksasha. He was buried alive and branded with one hundred curses tattooed onto his hide. The curses strip him of his one true power and pride as a naga, his true name- the moniker Purusha, which means "demon" in Old Dharmic, is a title applied only to the most reviled naga heretics.
Purusha's agenda, primarily, is to use his knowledge of the Original Tongue to guide those who bear both a passion for knowledge and a foolish disregard for what should remain unknown towards uncovering his true name and allowing him to be reincarnated. Until then, he is but a mere Asura. While he is bonded to a mortal, he occasionally influences their speech by making them speak more harshly than normal, and the handwriting of his bonded individual is often small and quick, like a scribe's would typically be. He is clearly wicked, but pragmatic enough to know that helping even the virtuous can bring him closer to his reclamation.
Purusha offers the following aspects to his bonded individual.
Action Point Ability: Purusha can grant his bonded individual a +4 profane bonus to one of the following skills- Knowledge (history), Knowledge (religion), or Truespeak. This bonus lasts for 1 hour per character level the bonded individual possesses.
Wisdom Plus (6 levels, 3 pts per level): Increase Wisdom over time. Considered an enhancement bonus.
Intelligence Plus (6 levels, 3 pts per level): Increase Intelligence over time. Considered an enhancement bonus.
Force of Will (6 levels, 3 pts per level): Gain a bonus to Will saves over time. Considered an enhancement bonus.
True Sagacity (10 levels, 1 pt per level): Gain an enhancement bonus to Truespeak.
Pious Sagacity (10 levels, 1 pt per level): Gain an enhancement bonus to Knowledge: Religion.
Ancient Sagacity (10 levels, 1 pt per level): Gain an enhancement bonus to Knowledge: History.
Beckon Person (1 to invest, 1 pt per level afterward): Cast Beckon Person as a spell-like ability 1/day per 4 character levels (minimum 1). The default caster level is level 1, but it increases by 1 with each level.
Lesser Truename Binding (9 to invest, 1 pt per level afterward): Cast Lesser Truename Binding as a spell-like ability 1/day per 4 character levels. The default caster level is level 9, but it increases by 1 with each level.
Greater Truename Binding (17 to invest, 1 pt per level afterward): Cast Charm Person as a spell-like ability 1/day per 4 character levels. The default caster level is level 17, but it increases by 1 with each level.
Hidden Alignment (1 level, 5 pts per level): Your alignment cannot be detected by effects that detect alignment, such as detect evil.
Staff of Law (5 levels, 3 pt per level): Purusha's self defense abilities with a staff are conveyed to your weapon. Gain a +1 enhancement bonus per level.
Naga-hide (5 levels, 3 pts per level): Purusha's natural defenses are granted to your armor. Gain a +1 enhancement bonus per level.
Deflection Sphere (6 levels, 3 pts per level): Generate a sphere of protective energy that grants a +1 deflection bonus to AC per level.
Loremaster (4 levels, 4 pts per level): Gain bonus spell slots depending on level. At level 1, you double your number of level 1 spell slots. At level 2, you double your level 1 and 2 spell slots, and so on until level 4.
Scroll Scribing (9 levels, 1 pt per level): Each day, you can scribe a number of spell levels equal to your Scroll Scribing level into scrolls without paying the cost. You must still prepare the spells as per normal in order to scribe them.
Cold Resistance (10 levels, 1 pt per level): You gain cold resistance equal to your level.
Poison Resistance (8 levels, 1 pt per level): You gain a +1 bonus per level to Fortitude saves against poison.
Summoner's Gravitas (10 levels, 1 pt per level): You gain a +1 bonus to CHA checks made to bind or call a summoned creature.
The main problem is that in the story, the concept of an item of power is sort of nonsense; it doesn't fit with the metaphysics of the setting. In the case of the item-bearing pact makers I mentioned above, it's not the fact that their artifacts or relics are supernatural so much as the spiritual entities involved humor the mortals. Any kind of supernatural effect in the universe is the discrete application of one mind's Will and its capacity to tap into the divine energy that permeates everything. Physical items, by definition, lack this capacity.
I think that in a "normal" D&D setting I wouldn't really restrict magic items at all, but I would let my players know that there are other options. I like the spiritual companion concept that you've described, and I think there are other possibilities also.
Dual progression PrCs like Eldritch Theurge (or Mystic Theurge, or Arcane Trickster, or so on) are banned in gestalt, because they **** things up like crazy.
The asura thing only really works if you make sure that the economy of the game is lower. My character is level 7, and she's probably seen a grand total of 1000 gold pieces across her entire career, no exaggeration. Of course, on the other hand, a character with built in equipment doesn't really NEED gold... what are they gonna do? Buy a bunch of riding dogs, awaken them, and then abuse leadership?
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
Apparently being a member of Gaymers doesn't preclude joining someplace else, so I guess there's nothing stopping me. Muahaha.
"ASA" always gives me horrible high school geometry flashbacks.
does melodic casting let me use spell like abilities with verbal components together with bardic music?