MTG Salvation

You win at life for making Jason Mraz the hot guy of the week. I love his music, and he sure as hell isn't bad looking.

In other news...people are annoying. Yeah, let's scream and run around and kick people's doors! This is college, stop acting like you're 2. kthnx.

Quote from Mamelon

Well, I guess anything "chemical" would be endocrinological, wouldn't it? LOL.

"Hormone" is actually a pretty broad category. More things fit into it than you might expect, like "vitamin" D.

As for mosaicism and chimerism, I had read some basic overview of how it supposedly occurs . . . more specifically, both of these conditions entail having XY in some cells and XX in others, or even more exotic karyotypes. It probably occurs in a similar way to any intersexed condition, as you said. And, like you siad, you can't be defined by genotype, surely.

I don't have my biology textbook with me, but what you're describing sounds like the kind of situation where a mother has fraternal embryos, and some or all of the cellular tissue of one embryo is commandeered by the other and incorporated into its body, which would explain the mix of cells with different karyotypes. I imagine the tissue being absorbed into the other embryo must be related to genitalia or adhere to a point on the embryo that correlates to sexual organs, which might not have as much "priority" over other cell differentiation over, say, cells that relate to the anterior-posterior directionality (which gets you a third embryo attached to the second depending on where you graft the cells). It's interesting to think about one organism that has cells with different genes, but I guess it happens sometimes. You'd think that the foreign cells would be rejected by the host, but that doesn't happen in embryonic development because it takes awhile for the embryo to develop antibodies, so if a mix of cells are all growing concertedly before the immunity trigger, they'll all be marked safe.

Anyway, I see what you mean now that you specify that you aren't merely talking about hormones created by gonads.

Yep. Gene expression is wild, sometimes.

The theory you posed above is actually pretty close to the more popular theory I'm familiar with. Hormonal signals influence growth and development, and it's believed that there are some conditions of the prenatal environment that alter the process by which a fetus' development to trigger. Theoretically, it's possible for whatever process of the brain that controls this kind of hormone regulation (hypothalamus, isn't it?) to develop differently than the process which determines sexual organs. And we generally define sex and gender by which sex organs you have, since that is the most visible (even if it doesn't have as much influence on your behavior).
It's probably also possible that it has to do with a genetic mutation.
As for psychological development, I've considered that, and it's possible. Though there doesn't seem to be much evidence supporting it. You'd think that something as abstract as "gender identity" would almost universally be something psychological, and there's certainly a psychological element to it (as you have pointed out in your sense). However, transgender children typically manifest prominent signs of gender dysphoria and "cross-gender" identification as early as pre-school age or earlier, and this tends to develop contrary to the way they are being socialized, and not in context to a particularly outstanding environmental factor in common. And the fact that this persists throughout life, again despite socialization, and resists change is somewhat different from other learned behaviors, even strong ones like personality disorders. And lastly, the experience of gender dysphoria in transgender people lines up logically with the experience of gender dysphoria in cisgender people who undergo some process that alters their visible sex characteristics and social treatment.

It is possible that the hormones the brain of the foetus is exposed to differ from its own sexual development in some way. In this situation, the transgendered person literally has the physical brain properties of the opposite sex.

I tend to doubt "nurture" arguments for stuff like sexuality and gender identity. I think many people tend to assume stereotypes about certain kinds of childhood that give a proclivity to "abnormal" development, and it's really mostly baseless. And, I think, the motivation for many is to trivialize the issue into it being a "disorder," which it's not.

Ultimately, the cause of such things is really... irrelevant. It's not going to change how people identify themselves either way, so it doesn't really matter in the long run. It almost feels like exploration the causation is there to satisfy the needs of the prejudiced and confirm their "perfect form" ideology.

And you're right, it's kind of a mystery. Even if we determine it's because of prenatal development, it's still pretty obscure and ambiguous. Psychologically speaking, I think it's hard to figure out. I myself don't claim to understand it, why it happens, and why it matters so much.

I think so long as you're ok with who you are and at peace with it, you don't need to know. It's just another thing, like any other part of our personalities, that some people are way too preoccupied with, I think.

You know, that doesn't sound that strange to me. I've known a lot of people who have a neutral or ambiguous sense of gender in themselves. My guess is that the strong gender identification that most people supposedly have is somewhat a result of socialization. Even my gender identity is fluid and not entirely clear, although it's not weak, either.

Hmm.

It may be that for me, the strong competiting themes of masculinity and femininity in my childhood caused me to just reject gender altogether. If I were to make a list of my personality traits, few of them could be explicitly said to be attributed to the maculine or feminine.

I think that facial hair is influenced by testosterone, because genetic females who take testosterone start to grow facial hair.

You're right; it is.

My testosterone levels are probably in the normal range. There could be more minor hormones involved as well, though.

Yeah, I have that problem, too, including with other things, like exercise.

Oh, yes. I should exercise more, because I'm wretchedly out of shape. I think my metabolism has encouraged laziness.

Uh huh. The introjection is rough, too. It's one thing to be uncomfortably stimulated by emotional atmospheres, and another to start feeling that emotion youself, as if it were your own, inexplicably. It's annoying, not to say overwhelming.

I think it's probably the basis for a lot of my non-social qualities. I've just become so deterred from social situations that I associate them with unpleasant sensations. I've developed more control over how it hits me than when I was a child, but the correlation is still there in my mind.

Quote from Kraj

Ugh. This place has been entirely too serious lately. Bring on the...




*Cues the music"

This installment of HGoTW once again eschews expectations by ignoring the "beefcake of a hunka-hunka with a perfect body and chiseled face" standard and going with a more "boy next door" cutie. Ladies and gentlm.... meh, ladies will do... I give you: Jason Mraz!

I know a girl who is obsessed with him.

It's kind of interesting, because she's this virulently racist black woman who always says she would never date a white man because he "wouldn't understand black issues," but all of the men she wants to sleep with (including myself) are white.

Quote from Kraj »

Ugh. This place has been entirely too serious lately.

Sorry. I didn't mean to hijack the thread.

And my God, his voice could melt my pants right off.

Quite an amazing voice. I know I've heard ones like it. Mmm.

Quote from Ain_Soph_Aur »

I don't have my biology textbook with me, but what you're describing sounds like the kind of situation where a mother has fraternal embryos, and some or all of the cellular tissue of one embryo is commandeered by the other and incorporated into its body, which would explain the mix of cells with different karyotypes. I imagine the tissue being absorbed into the other embryo must be related to genitalia or adhere to a point on the embryo that correlates to sexual organs, which might not have as much "priority" over other cell differentiation over, say, cells that relate to the anterior-posterior directionality (which gets you a third embryo attached to the second depending on where you graft the cells). It's interesting to think about one organism that has cells with different genes, but I guess it happens sometimes. You'd think that the foreign cells would be rejected by the host, but that doesn't happen in embryonic development because it takes awhile for the embryo to develop antibodies, so if a mix of cells are all growing concertedly before the immunity trigger, they'll all be marked safe.

What you're talking about, I believe, is the definition of chimerism, which is having karyotypes integrated from others cells.

It is possible that the hormones the brain of the foetus is exposed to differ from its own sexual development in some way. In this situation, the transgendered person literally has the physical brain properties of the opposite sex.

Actually, as I understand it, this is the most prominent theory that seems plausible. Many scientists are thinking of transgenderism/transsexuality as a less visible form of intersexed condition, a neurological intersexed condition. A term I've seen used to describe it is "neurological dimorphism" or sometimes "brain hermaphroditism." I mean, there are documented intersexed conditions in which a person can have a uterus and commonly female behavior patterns (such as attraction to men, female self-identification) and yet have a high level of androgens which masculinize the body, even causing ambiguous genitals. Isn't it also possible that a person could, then, develop one reproductive system and gonads in utero, and yet still have the other neurological and endocrinological traits of the sex not aligned with that reproductive system? After all, it's estrogen and testosterone that affect external appearance and secondary sex characteristics, but not really behavior.

I tend to doubt "nurture" arguments for stuff like sexuality and gender identity. I think many people tend to assume stereotypes about certain kinds of childhood that give a proclivity to "abnormal" development, and it's really mostly baseless. And, I think, the motivation for many is to trivialize the issue into it being a "disorder," which it's not.

Ultimately, the cause of such things is really... irrelevant. It's not going to change how people identify themselves either way, so it doesn't really matter in the long run. It almost feels like exploration the causation is there to satisfy the needs of the prejudiced and confirm their "perfect form" ideology.

Yeah, I agree. It seems many people try to prove or disprove that transgenderism or homosexuality are inborn because that would insinuate that these traits are "unnatural." I can understand that, because if I could prove that being transgender were inborn, it would add some more authority to the idea for some audiences and perhaps force them to view it as a legitimate status and not an abnormal deviation. But, ultimately, it really is irrelevent. Even if being gay, or trans, is learned behavior, that doesn't change anything about its nature morally or in terms of how it should be addressed. As you say, it's not a disorder because it doesn't fit any reasonable criteria for being unhealthy. Admittedly gender dysphoria is similar to depression in terms of how unhealthy it is, but the solution almost invariably appears to be to embrace the natural gender identity and not to reject it, and to attain social support rather than being made out to be unbalanced or delusional.

I think so long as you're ok with who you are and at peace with it, you don't need to know. It's just another thing, like any other part of our personalities, that some people are way too preoccupied with, I think.

Right. Though it's understandable to be concerned if you are gay or trans, since it's hard to fit comfortably into many communities as such. It's difficult to feel okay with who you are when so many people seem to be prejudiced against you for it - not to say that you shouldn't try.

It may be that for me, the strong competiting themes of masculinity and femininity in my childhood caused me to just reject gender altogether. If I were to make a list of my personality traits, few of them could be explicitly said to be attributed to the maculine or feminine.

I get that. I'd say I'm the same way, but that's evidently untrue. I do, however, tend to reject traditional ideals about gender. I've often wished we didn't even have gender because of how embittered I felt by the whole situation.

Oh, yes. I should exercise more, because I'm wretchedly out of shape. I think my metabolism has encouraged laziness.

I'm really lazy, too. I tend to have low energy and enjoy quiet time.

I think it's probably the basis for a lot of my non-social qualities. I've just become so deterred from social situations that I associate them with unpleasant sensations. I've developed more control over how it hits me than when I was a child, but the correlation is still there in my mind.

I think it's neat how this came up, because it sounds so similar to my own situation.
I often just feel like an exposed nerve in public, and it's very uncomfortable.
One thing I really hate is when people touch me without my permission, which is something I'd dislike about being at a club. I'm very sensitive about physical contact and proximity, and if someone touches me at all, I almost always react by being startled. It's okay if I'm comfortable with someone, but that's kind of hard to get to.

I remember when my ex-boyfriend and I first started having much physical contact. It felt very strange for me for a long while. He was the kind of person who would spontaneously reach over and grab my hand, or squeeze my leg, or gently kiss my temple. It was really nice, but I felt ambivalent about it, probably in part because I'm not used to that. I'd always feel this sudden warmth rush through my body, and my face would become hot. It was comforting and endearing but also flustering. I'd get weak in the knees. I freaked about it a little at first, I admit, because I didn't expect to have such a strong reaction to that kind of thing. I was worried about whether I could handle it if we ever had sex (we never did, thankfully).

I think I'd like to become more comfortable with this kind of contact, though it's not easy. It's very similar to wanting some space, emotionally speaking, between yourself and others. It's easy to feel overcome, sometimes, by someone else's intensity.

It's kind of interesting, because she's this virulently racist black woman who always says she would never date a white man because he "wouldn't understand black issues," but all of the men she wants to sleep with (including myself) are white.

That sort of of reminds of that friend I was talking about earlier. He's black (well, biracial, but more black in appearance), and seems to have a lot against other black guys. He tends to dislike black guys by default and only dates white guys. However, he likes white guys that behave "like a thug" in his terms.

Quote from Kraj »

He's absolutely adorable, has a great sense of humor (remember that video from a minute ago?), loves the color pink, and he very much believes in experimenting with sexuality. Score!

Awww. He does sound very cute.

Oops. Sorry about that, stud. Let me wipe that off for you...

Hee hee. Devilish.

Quote from Mamelon

What you're talking about, I believe, is the definition of chimerism, which is having karyotypes integrated from others cells.

I believe you're right; chimerism. I knew about that, but I didn't know it actually affected the sex organs of some of the embryos. That's quite interesting, because normally there's only a small percentage of the differing cells.

Actually, as I understand it, this is the most prominent theory that seems plausible. Many scientists are thinking of transgenderism/transsexuality as a less visible form of intersexed condition, a neurological intersexed condition. A term I've seen used to describe it is "neurological dimorphism" or sometimes "brain hermaphroditism." I mean, there are documented intersexed conditions in which a person can have a uterus and commonly female behavior patterns (such as attraction to men, female self-identification) and yet have a high level of androgens which masculinize the body, even causing ambiguous genitals. Isn't it also possible that a person could, then, develop one reproductive system and gonads in utero, and yet still have the other neurological and endocrinological traits of the sex not aligned with that reproductive system? After all, it's estrogen and testosterone that affect external appearance and secondary sex characteristics, but not really behavior.

That's very interesting. But I wonder how you effect the neurology of an organism but not its sexual organs. Perhaps there are cycles of hormonal baths at different points in development. It may be a situation where the gene expression strongly asserts itself despite the hormonal environment to develop the genotypal genitalia.

Yeah, I agree. It seems many people try to prove or disprove that transgenderism or homosexuality are inborn because that would insinuate that these traits are "unnatural." I can understand that, because if I could prove that being transgender were inborn, it would add some more authority to the idea for some audiences and perhaps force them to view it as a legitimate status and not an abnormal deviation. But, ultimately, it really is irrelevent. Even if being gay, or trans, is learned behavior, that doesn't change anything about its nature morally or in terms of how it should be addressed. As you say, it's not a disorder because it doesn't fit any reasonable criteria for being unhealthy. Admittedly gender dysphoria is similar to depression in terms of how unhealthy it is, but the solution almost invariably appears to be to embrace the natural gender identity and not to reject it, and to attain social support rather than being made out to be unbalanced or delusional.

Really I feel the whole "unnatural argument" is insincere. There are any number of natural things which would be considered immoral for humans to do, and as humans we do unnatural things every day that are perfectly moral.

If people want to question the morality of being queer or genderqueer, they need to show how it is necessarily harmful. Which they can't, because it isn't. So instead we have to crack our teeth arguing about whether or not its natural, which no one really cares about to begin with.

Psychology does a real disservice to us here because in assuming its a "learned behavior," you open the door to the notion that the behavior can be "corrected." And that's all the argument is really about. We're still in the dark as to why it needs to be corrected. Oh, that's right. Religion.

The attack on the queer community by the dominionists is, in my view, only the beginning. We're the most expedient political scapegoat, and there's a lot of already present homophobia and such to feed off of. As soon as they marginalize us to their liking, they'll go after the next group, and then the next. You'd almost think there isn't anything personal about it, but it doesn't make it any less evil.

Right. Though it's understandable to be concerned if you are gay or trans, since it's hard to fit comfortably into many communities as such. It's difficult to feel okay with who you are when so many people seem to be prejudiced against you for it - not to say that you shouldn't try.

That's definitely true. My hope for most people in our situations is that they do get to a point where they are ok with it and can live comfortably as themselves in their community. It is not always the case. I think it would be great to live in a society where such stigmas didn't exist, but I don't know how likely that is. I wish people would stop and think about the subtle harm all their prejudices cause. But they don't, I think, because they are selfish.

I get that. I'd say I'm the same way, but that's evidently untrue. I do, however, tend to reject traditional ideals about gender. I've often wished we didn't even have gender because of how embittered I felt by the whole situation.

Hmm.

I have a vague sense of being male, but that may just be from the fact that that is what I am physically. The "he" pronoun doesn't bother me as such.

When I was an adolescent, I strove to become a more "masculine" person. At the time I had been under the impression from the gay community that I was exposed to that no one would ever find me attractive the way that I was; it wasn't enough to not be girly, you had to be overtly "straight acting." I even began to see a therapist in order to correct my mannerisms and behavior, which I described as being linked to an anxiety disorder (from emotional bombardment). Of course, in those days, I was more notably "feminine" than I am now. I think as I matured, the stoic state I tended to have when I was alone or in a comfortable environment became more and more common in the public as well. Eventually I came to think "why bother? I don't need to be beholden to someone else's idea of what gender means." I think getting to the point where I really didn't give a **** what anyone else thought was what really made the anxiety go away.

I'm really lazy, too. I tend to have low energy and enjoy quiet time.

I think that is one of the sacrifices I made for being a calmer, more under-control person. I went from having excessively high levels of energy to... almost always being exhausted. Sometimes it's strange to remember the hysterical enthusiasm of my youth. I was a completely different person, then.

I'm trying to find ways to combat my laziness. It's very difficult, because growing up I didn't have any really good authority figure, so I have to completely rely on self-discipline, which falters. I also struggle with epic procrastination.

I think it's neat how this came up, because it sounds so similar to my own situation.
I often just feel like an exposed nerve in public, and it's very uncomfortable.
One thing I really hate is when people touch me without my permission, which is something I'd dislike about being at a club. I'm very sensitive about physical contact and proximity, and if someone touches me at all, I almost always react by being startled. It's okay if I'm comfortable with someone, but that's kind of hard to get to.

For me it was almost a kind of emotional claustrophobia. Being near people was like being enveloped in their psychological states, it felt like I was drowning. Some people are especially more "loud" than others. I had to learn how to put a distance between myself and others, and I think that makes me come off as stand-offish and indifferent. It's funny, because I have so much compassion for other people's misfortunes and sadness it's almost unbearable. I must be very unapproachable, now.

I remember when my ex-boyfriend and I first started having much physical contact. It felt very strange for me for a long while. He was the kind of person who would spontaneously reach over and grab my hand, or squeeze my leg, or gently kiss my temple. It was really nice, but I felt ambivalent about it, probably in part because I'm not used to that. I'd always feel this sudden warmth rush through my body, and my face would become hot. It was comforting and endearing but also flustering. I'd get weak in the knees. I freaked about it a little at first, I admit, because I didn't expect to have such a strong reaction to that kind of thing. I was worried about whether I could handle it if we ever had sex (we never did, thankfully).

I think I'd like to become more comfortable with this kind of contact, though it's not easy. It's very similar to wanting some space, emotionally speaking, between yourself and others. It's easy to feel overcome, sometimes, by someone else's intensity.

Exactly.

The first time I had ever been kissed, I was terrified of the whole thing for that very reason up until the moment his lips touched mine. After which, I just melted completely. The sensation of being touched and kissed was definitely overwhelming, but knowing that it involved someone who I cared about and who cared about me helped. Normally I am somewhat stiff from tense muscles, but I became a puddle in his lap... it was amazing. It was kind of a mistake, though, because minutes later he was introducing me to his friends, and I found I couldn't keep my hands off him. He later told me that he thought I had been faking my reaction. It must have seemed very... dramatic.

I think being comfortable with certain people touching helps alleviate the sensitivity. If just anyone touched or kissed me, even if they were hot, I might recoil.

That sort of of reminds of that friend I was talking about earlier. He's black (well, biracial, but more black in appearance), and seems to have a lot against other black guys. He tends to dislike black guys by default and only dates white guys. However, he likes white guys that behave "like a thug" in his terms.

She's a great kid, otherwise. I think living in the most racist part of Indiana has really colored her perception of what white people are like, which is unfortunate. I think at some level she realizes the ridiculousness of it, but it is such a gut reaction with her. I imagine having powerful emotions and associations like that must be really tough. But I have my own prejudices as well, and it's probably something we all struggle against to a degree.

Quote from Mamelon

Sorry. I didn't mean to hijack the thread.

I hope I didn't make you feel bad. If I did, I'm sorry. I think it's fantastic that Gaymers has a "support group" element to it and can help our friends tackle the tough issues.

I just feel the need to interject some fun and light-heartedness once in a while. After all, what fun is a group of gays if we can't have shallow, self-indulgent, hedonistic gaiety now and again? And if Mikey doesn't do it then by golly I guess I have to!

Quote from Ain Soph Aur »

That's very interesting. But I wonder how you effect the neurology of an organism but not its sexual organs. Perhaps there are cycles of hormonal baths at different points in development. It may be a situation where the gene expression strongly asserts itself despite the hormonal environment to develop the genotypal genitalia.

That's the very theory, I believe. It's thought, as I understand, that what stimuli triggers development of these characteristics are discrete, but similar. Neurological development and development of gonads occur in different stages, from different "triggers."

Really I feel the whole "unnatural argument" is insincere. There are any number of natural things which would be considered immoral for humans to do, and as humans we do unnatural things every day that are perfectly moral.

Precisely.

If people want to question the morality of being queer or genderqueer, they need to show how it is necessarily harmful. Which they can't, because it isn't. So instead we have to crack our teeth arguing about whether or not its natural, which no one really cares about to begin with.

Psychology does a real disservice to us here because in assuming its a "learned behavior," you open the door to the notion that the behavior can be "corrected." And that's all the argument is really about. We're still in the dark as to why it needs to be corrected. Oh, that's right. Religion.

The attack on the queer community by the dominionists is, in my view, only the beginning. We're the most expedient political scapegoat, and there's a lot of already present homophobia and such to feed off of. As soon as they marginalize us to their liking, they'll go after the next group, and then the next. You'd almost think there isn't anything personal about it, but it doesn't make it any less evil.

This is generally the argument I use. "Unnatural" is vague and superstitious. Even if it's "learned" behavior, that'd still be a natural behavior, as it's certainly not artificial. It strikes me that many people don't have any real grasp as to what makes something natural or unnatural, and what is a meaningful definition thereof. And, of course, that's an eminently poor standard for moral systems.

Even the most cohesive and well reasoned explanations used by religious groups as to why homosexuality or gender "deviation" are wrong operate on unreasonable premises, rely on an authoritarian ethos, or exist in the context of an agenda concerning gender that doesn't have any moral merit.

And religious people really wonder why so many don't follow their religion?

That's definitely true. My hope for most people in our situations is that they do get to a point where they are ok with it and can live comfortably as themselves in their community. It is not always the case. I think it would be great to live in a society where such stigmas didn't exist, but I don't know how likely that is. I wish people would stop and think about the subtle harm all their prejudices cause. But they don't, I think, because they are selfish.

I know. I might say that, generally, most people don't care about others, and they don't care about equality.

When I was an adolescent, I strove to become a more "masculine" person. At the time I had been under the impression from the gay community that I was exposed to that no one would ever find me attractive the way that I was; it wasn't enough to not be girly, you had to be overtly "straight acting." I even began to see a therapist in order to correct my mannerisms and behavior, which I described as being linked to an anxiety disorder (from emotional bombardment). Of course, in those days, I was more notably "feminine" than I am now. I think as I matured, the stoic state I tended to have when I was alone or in a comfortable environment became more and more common in the public as well. Eventually I came to think "why bother? I don't need to be beholden to someone else's idea of what gender means." I think getting to the point where I really didn't give a **** what anyone else thought was what really made the anxiety go away.

Mhm. I went through a phase similar to that, to please my parents. For me, it was a step to realizing how incredibly harmful and wrong repression is.

I'm trying to find ways to combat my laziness. It's very difficult, because growing up I didn't have any really good authority figure, so I have to completely rely on self-discipline, which falters. I also struggle with epic procrastination.

Me, too. I don't know about you, but I feel as if I tend to be handicapped when it comes to being motivated. I balk, make excuses, feel overwhelmed by pressure, and just try to avoid it all.

For me it was almost a kind of emotional claustrophobia. Being near people was like being enveloped in their psychological states, it felt like I was drowning. Some people are especially more "loud" than others. I had to learn how to put a distance between myself and others, and I think that makes me come off as stand-offish and indifferent. It's funny, because I have so much compassion for other people's misfortunes and sadness it's almost unbearable. I must be very unapproachable, now.

I understand that, and I wouldn't feel bad about it, if you can help it. I experience this not only from physical proximity, but from any kind of interaction, even just from reading someone's words. I sometimes feel disrupted, somehow, as if someone else's consciousness is bearing down on me. This makes sense with viewing someone else's expressions or emotional cues; someone who is more emotionally sensitive is more likely to perceive them in the first place, and then to have a sympathetic reaction, such as responding with similar muscular movements unconsciously, facial expressions, states of mind, etc. Empathy has a very real basis, and is not the mystical faculty of ESP some people insist it must be, and therefore doesn't exist. It's all very overstimulating. Some people think attention is almost like an energy or a medium that transfers this is in metaphysical sense. In any case, it's really amazing how delicate one's emotional "receptors" can be.

There are lot of people who tend to avoid others to decrease exposure to this stimulation. I know I do it, and sometimes to my detriment. If I feel like I just can't take it, I can be very aloof and stand-offish, even when I do care. For instance, I like to help by listening to peoples' problems, but it can get to be too much, and I just need to seperate myself. I tend to feel guilty about it, but I have a problem with guilt anyway. I also experience this when someone wants attention from me and I just don't feel like I have it in me to give at the moment - I tend to turn away, avert my gaze, hunch my shoulders. It's not very nice, but sometimes I feel like it's the only reaction I can make.
Also not uncommon, I often feel a need to what to help someone else with their feelings, though this isn't always even possible. Sometimes all someone needs from you is a listener, and the desire to alleviate the pain or discomfort can be maddening when there really isn't anything to be said. I've had so many times when friends have regularly come to me with their issues, oftentimes heartbreaking ones, and this just tore at me internally because I felt powerless to do anything but sit there and absorb it all. As I'm sure you can understand, there have been a lot of times when all I've been able to do in this situation was go somewhere private and cry until it felt better.

Exactly.

The first time I had ever been kissed, I was terrified of the whole thing for that very reason up until the moment his lips touched mine. After which, I just melted completely. The sensation of being touched and kissed was definitely overwhelming, but knowing that it involved someone who I cared about and who cared about me helped. Normally I am somewhat stiff from tense muscles, but I became a puddle in his lap... it was amazing. It was kind of a mistake, though, because minutes later he was introducing me to his friends, and I found I couldn't keep my hands off him. He later told me that he thought I had been faking my reaction. It must have seemed very... dramatic.

That's kind of what I'm afraid of. I feel I can really understand your predicament. Part of what might make it so overwhelming, I guess, is that this person you care about so deeply is so close to you at the moment. Those feelings have to be very strong, both satisfying and frightening. As for melting into a puddle, I definitely feel you there. It used to be all he'd have to do was brush against my cheek with his finger, and I'd start trembling, feeling almost helpless. He never kissed me in a very intimate way, such as on the mouth, though, as it didn't get too far. Maybe that was a good thing?
I'd still like to have someone special like that in my life again, only this time someone who really cared about me, too. I hope I'd be able to handle the intensity of the experience. I'm sure time helps. Part of it, for me at least, is this sense of vulnerability that comes over you. Feeling intensely emotionally stimulated, your normal barriers passed over, absorbed into this other person, suddenly very willing to go along with them . . . that kind of thing sounds like it'd be much safer and easier, not to mention more pleasurable, if it's with someone you have a lot of trust for. If you can know that they won't betray that vulnerability, and will share themselves with you in the same way, it doesn't seem as scary, and even becomes immensely gratifying, I'd think.

I have noticed I feel less strange about touching someone else, now. He kind of helped me realize that it was okay, and even good, and that I could express that to someone. I didn't feel so weird initiating hugs, and the like, though he was still usually the one to initiate physical contact. I think I came to realize it really isn't some form of aggression, an image I'd had because of my feelings about sex.

Interestingly, I also tend to have very tense muscles.

I think being comfortable with certain people touching helps alleviate the sensitivity. If just anyone touched or kissed me, even if they were hot, I might recoil.

Yeah, me too. I tend to jump when people touch me at all, though very soft contact isn't so bad. If it's more intimate contact, such as touching a more private area (small of back, for example), then I panic.

She's a great kid, otherwise. I think living in the most racist part of Indiana has really colored her perception of what white people are like, which is unfortunate. I think at some level she realizes the ridiculousness of it, but it is such a gut reaction with her. I imagine having powerful emotions and associations like that must be really tough. But I have my own prejudices as well, and it's probably something we all struggle against to a degree.

Very much so.

Quote from Kraj »

I hope I didn't make you feel bad. If I did, I'm sorry. I think it's fantastic that Gaymers has a "support group" element to it and can help our friends tackle the tough issues.

I just feel the need to interject some fun and light-heartedness once in a while. After all, what fun is a group of gays if we can't have shallow, self-indulgent, hedonistic gaiety now and again? And if Mikey doesn't do it then by golly I guess I have to!

Oh, okay.
It's just that I know I have this tendency to go on and on, and sometimes derail topics and scare some posters off. I fear I've done this in the Coffeehouse, as some have complained at all the trans-centered talk that goes on there now. I really like these drawn out, in depth conversations, but I don't want to alienate anyone with them. I hope that's not becoming a problem here.
And feel free to interject as much of anything as you see fit.

Quote from Ain_Soph_Aur

I know a girl who is obsessed with him.

It's kind of interesting, because she's this virulently racist black woman who always says she would never date a white man because he "wouldn't understand black issues," but all of the men she wants to sleep with (including myself) are white.

*lol* I confess that I myself am a black woman who loves white men. Black men tend to be either extremely rude to be(because I'm fat) or just don't know how to take me(because I'm smart). White men seem less bothered by my fat and my brains. Also, all but 1 of my friends is a white guy. When you play Magic that's all you really meet.

I do know a bunch of black and hispanic Yu-Gi-Oh players but most of them aren't really friends. I'd like to befriend a group of Yu-Gi-Oh players I've named the "Hispanic Death Squad". Its 5 guys who come to the saturday tournaments at the local shop and just murder everyone. They keep up on the most popular decks, know what a side deck is and how to use it, and help each other out when it comes to stuff like trades and playtesting. Most of the YGO players in the area suck(I do in comparison to them) and only 2 people aside from them have any chance of T8'ing at Regionals or an SJC(its somewhere between MSS and the Pro Tour). My mentor(who ironically sucked at YGO when I met him) is the best player in the area(no one ever argues this point; its just how it is) but is a shy person and doesn't like calling attention to himself. He's a good Magic player too but quit(at least for now) to focus more on YGO judging. I'm a YGO judge as well and I wish I were a Magic judge but no events come close enough. Some come to Canada but now I need a passport to go to Canada and that's going to take some time. Toronto and Hamilton are closer than Syracuse and Rochester. Being a Magic judge would be easier than being a YGO judge. YGO has alot of contradictory rulings and gameplay can get extremely complicated, especially during the battle phase. Anyone who says YGO is a simple game has either never played or never played well.

I like really long, in-depth discussions, but I find I can't get into them unless I'm there from the beginning. Otherwise, I just seem incapable of finding a place to intercede with my opinion. And, since I'm not online all that mmuch, I usually stay uninvolved.

On a more personal note: I wasn't posting because I was sick (my throat started closing. It was awful. I couldn't swallow without intense pain. I still don't know what caused it). But I feel much better now! Hurrah!
A bit gloomy, because the guy I like went out on a date today, but even that isn't getting me too down, because my friend Chelsea, who knows both of them, feels that while they could be friends, they probably wouldn't be very close ones, and likely won't hit it off romantically.
I feel kind of bad wishing a blight on a romance, but...there you go.

My uncle's girlfriend seriously drives me nuts. She can be nice, but it's the fake-nice. She works in real-estate, so she's gotta be fake-nice lots. Except she doesn't know when to turn the fake-nice off and just be herself.

It's not the only reason she drives me nuts. EVERYONE who knows my uncle knows he has a drinking problem. But she doesn't think so. According to her, "he just enjoys a drink now and then". Yeah, right now? he's on his second beer since we met up with them at dinner. Which was like, an hour ago. Who knows how many he had before that. The way she dresses isn't...exactly...decent, either. Her skirt barely covers her ass, and her boots are like...something you'd find whores wearing. Middle-aged women + clothes like that = someone stab my eyes out.

I'm not trying to be judgemental. I just don't like her.

I've met her sisters, too. and her mom. and oh, my god, i swear her mom was on crack when she named her kids. All three are girls: Malkin, Nathania, and Marley.

lol wut. and i thought my name was strange. [[shrugs]]

anyway, i got sick of trying to be social. i can only stand people for so long, haha.

Quote from FMota »

I could've said "Yes" rather than being sarcastic, but it was more fun and I don't think I need to deal with coming out right now. At least not for another week.

That's cute. It's fine not wanting to come out right away. The other day at work, I had another coworker asking me about my sexuality. She was asking was asking me if I had a girlfriend or boyfriend, and I just told her, "Honey, that's not the kind of thing I talk about."
She kept apologizing in case she was rude (and some of the others there were scolding her because they said she was being very rude), but I assured her it was fine. However, I wouldn't give her a non-ambiguous answer. To be fair, I am not usually in the business of being non-ambiguous, apparently.

Quote from Bitsy »

Anyone who says YGO is a simple game has either never played or never played well.

I played YuGi-Oh a couple times, and had a hard time getting a grasp. The power level seemed very high, but there did seem to be a surprising level of subtley and intricacy in the different card abilities and card types.

Quote from Tuatha »

I like really long, in-depth discussions, but I find I can't get into them unless I'm there from the beginning. Otherwise, I just seem incapable of finding a place to intercede with my opinion. And, since I'm not online all that mmuch, I usually stay uninvolved.

I understand that. There are a lot of times when I've wanted to join in a thread or a discussion and just didn't have time or couldn't find the right entry point. Sorry if you felt alienated or drowned out. And that goes for the whole thread.

On a more personal note: I wasn't posting because I was sick (my throat started closing. It was awful. I couldn't swallow without intense pain. I still don't know what caused it). But I feel much better now! Hurrah!

It's great that you feel better.

Quote from FMota »

OH GOD, WHY IS THE ONLY PROMINENT GAY CHARACTER CALLED FRANK? ARGGH. COULD'VE USED A DIFFERENT NAME.

I sort of like the name "Frank." I think it's because I like the name Francis.
I sort of wish I had that name - Francis, I mean. Then I'd insist on being called Francis since it's not gender specific.

<at the risk of starting a theological debate in the the thread> Happy Easter.

That's right - Happy Easter, to everyone who observes it! Not that I wouldn't want this time to be happy for nonobservers.

Easter is just another holiday that i have to sit through even though i don't believe in god at all. apparently the people i'm related to don't understand "JOLENE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD AND NEVER HAS". Although I was forced to get confirmed.

I'm currently in an argument about how i don't have a job for summer yet. it's a crime, according to my mom, to want to go visit mikey's family in ohio for a week or two, before starting work. I'm sorry, they're part of my family too. I only get to see them two or three times a year. I'd REALLY like to see them. I can still work for summer when i get back to wisconsin.

then there's the part where i don't have one at all yet. i've never had a job, because i've always had to focus on homework. seriously, if i don't focus on homework i would probably fail out of school.

i don't have a job, never have, and i'm absolutely terrified of having one. And NO ONE SEEMS TO ****ING UNDERSTAND THIS. not even mikey gets it. Having to talk to people i've never met before in person is more terrifying to me than needles [and needles make me shake uncontrollably]. i've explained this time and time again and no one understands. or cares. maybe they get it, they just don't care.

mikey's listing off all these places to go apply...i just don't want to. i need a job, 'cause i need the money, i just don't want to have to deal with people i don't know. I'm terrible at small talk and making eye contact with people. if i think of something smartass to say, i say it no matter what, i'm terrible at keeping that under control.

i just want to say **** it all and go live in a cave and never come out.

Quote from Leilani »

Easter is just another holiday that i have to sit through even though i don't believe in god at all. apparently the people i'm related to don't understand "JOLENE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD AND NEVER HAS". Although I was forced to get confirmed.

Sucks that they made you do that. As for Easter, not having any Christian beliefs can make one less than comfortable with this decidedly religious holiday. However, some people enjoy it because of the social significance, and not the religious meaning.

i don't have a job, never have, and i'm absolutely terrified of having one. And NO ONE SEEMS TO ****ING UNDERSTAND THIS. not even mikey gets it. Having to talk to people i've never met before in person is more terrifying to me than needles [and needles make me shake uncontrollably]. i've explained this time and time again and no one understands. or cares. maybe they get it, they just don't care.

It's perfectly understandable for you to feel this way. I had a miserable time getting a job, because I had the same anxieties. Some fields, especially, entail very frustrating customer service experiences, and can just make it worse. It is possible, though, to find a job in which you have minimal contact with customers or clients, such as cook/food prep, stocking and inventory, errands, or other jobs employing a technical skill.
And if you do have to settle on a job in which you deal with people, don't panic. I have terrible social anxiety usually, and had a hard time of it, but I did learn coping methods. Your discomfort with lessen with some time, if it comes to that.

I completely sympathize with your feelings about this. Job hunting, in itself, can often be tremendously tedious and stressful, especially if just no one seems to understand. But I have confidence that you can eventually find a way to make money that you're comfortable with. It might take a while, so don't lose hope. For instance, if you got into fast food, you can generally request a position in which you don't deal with customers, instead focusing on cleaning and preparation.

i just want to say **** it all and go live in a cave and never come out.

That's not surprising. If you have a lot of discomfort with other people and this kind of everyday interaction, just living in society can be a major pain. Don't feel weird about it, though. You'll be to adjust, in time, and it's easier if you adjust your behavior and exposure to suit your needs.

Quote from FMota

I just watched Little Miss Sunshine. It's funny.
I recommend it. Plus, Frank is gay.

OH GOD, WHY IS THE ONLY PROMINENT GAY CHARACTER CALLED FRANK? ARGGH. COULD'VE USED A DIFFERENT NAME.

Sorry for the caps.

That's really all I have to say. Sorry.

What's so wrong with the name Frank?

Quote from Leilani

i don't have a job, never have, and i'm absolutely terrified of having one. And NO ONE SEEMS TO ****ING UNDERSTAND THIS. not even mikey gets it. Having to talk to people i've never met before in person is more terrifying to me than needles [and needles make me shake uncontrollably]. i've explained this time and time again and no one understands. or cares. maybe they get it, they just don't care.

mikey's listing off all these places to go apply...i just don't want to. i need a job, 'cause i need the money, i just don't want to have to deal with people i don't know. I'm terrible at small talk and making eye contact with people. if i think of something smartass to say, i say it no matter what, i'm terrible at keeping that under control.

i just want to say **** it all and go live in a cave and never come out.

Im getting out of the military in September and was looking for a job recently. The idea of leaving the military is quite scary to me, ive been in since i was 17 and its all i know, its all im really good at. So i finally found a job... it just happens to be as a Combat Intelligence Specialist for Blackwater. For those who dont know Blackwater is essentially a mercenary group doing military contracts in Iraq and Afghanistan. http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

Now the terrifying prospect of knowingly signing myself to highly hostile enviornments just to make a buck, thats scary, even if self induced. But what would be worse would to stumble out of the military being forced in to some analyst job staring at a computer screen under flouresent lighting until my social security check rolls in and i can retire 40 years from now. Now thats scary.

P.S. When im gone ill look for a nice comfy cave for ya. lol.

Quote from Mamelon

Sucks that they made you do that. As for Easter, not having any Christian beliefs can make one less than comfortable with this decidedly religious holiday. However, some people enjoy it because of the social significance, and not the religious meaning.

My family is heavily Catholic where as im not so much, although the saying "we all find religions in fox holes" stands true, i like easter and alot of the traditional christian holidays more so for the culture, tradition, and social aspects of it as you say. Celebrating in someone elses beliefs still makes for a fun time, as ive been to plenty other relgious (muslim, buddist) events and have always had a great time.

mikey's listing off all these places to go apply...i just don't want to. i need a job, 'cause i need the money, i just don't want to have to deal with people i don't know. I'm terrible at small talk and making eye contact with people. if i think of something smartass to say, i say it no matter what, i'm terrible at keeping that under control.

You don't need to talk to people in every job you have. I've worked at a some retail-ish places (like a tree farm during Christmas) where you need to talk to random people, but even then it's not necessary more than, "Is this the tree you want?" But if you want a job without having to deal with customers, just keep looking. I'm trying to get a job this summer with the high school's tech department, which just involves moving computers around and making images of files. There's definitely jobs out there for high school/college students where you don't talk to people walking into your store.

Quote from Mamelon

Sucks that they made you do that. As for Easter, not having any Christian beliefs can make one less than comfortable with this decidedly religious holiday. However, some people enjoy it because of the social significance, and not the religious meaning.

that's what my mom tried to tell me, but to her "social significance" equals to "family dinner". family dinners are usually a disaster, and thus i try to avoid them. haha.

thanks for the replies guys, you're so awesome.

Quote from Leilani

Easter is just another holiday that i have to sit through even though i don't believe in god at all. apparently the people i'm related to don't understand "JOLENE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD AND NEVER HAS". Although I was forced to get confirmed.

Being an atheist is probably easier than having a religion. *lol* I believe in God but I'm a Pagan and people are sort of confused by that. They're like "You believe in one god but you're not a Christian?". Also, my belief in God is sort of practical. It doesn't cost me anything to believe in God so I do. I don't believe in heaven or hell but I do believe that when we die we're reincarnated(not necessarily as a human or other sentient being though). I've never understood how Christians can believe what they do. Their version of heaven is a real nightmare. Once the Rapture is over and done with, everyone who didn't convert will go to hell and their name will be stricken from the Book of Life. Meaning no one will even remember that they ever existed. *shudder* What if you went to heaven but you spouse, parents, or even worse child didn't? Real nightmare stuff. At least in hell you'd suffer knowing there was a God AND you'd remember your family.

Truthfully, I don't think about religion much. Except when I think about extraterrestrials. Can you imagine how many religions would be proven dead wrong if aliens visited Earth? I'd love to meet some aliens. Its been a dream of mine since I was about 5.

Meeting aliens would rock. As long as they don't look like ET, because that little thing has seriously scarred me for life. Although perhaps that's my mom's fault, for letting me watch it when I was like, 3. Haha.

Mota: Thanks. Mikey and I talked it out last night [as we always do. :p], and he said he'd rather see me try to get a job and end up without one, than not try at all. Though, obviously, he'd be happiest if I had a job, but y'know. Small steps with me, i guess.

Bitsy: I don't really understand Pagan-things [lacking a better way to put it. :P], but i don't see a reason why you couldn't believe in god without being a christian. Apparently people don't see gray, they only see black and white. [[shrugs]] Me personally, I believe in ghosts and reincarnations and all that kinda stuff.

Unfortunately, my interest with ghosts and the paranormal leads me to reading books or watching tv programs at night, which scares me silly and leaves me unable to sleep. That's my overactive imagination for you, i guess. Though, our house DOES have a poltergeist-slash-ghost. I named it Patti....because it needed a name. I'm not sure what it is exactly...because it behaves like a poltergeist...except I've seen it on more than one occasion, like you would a ghost.

and now i'm babbling. lollers.

I love you for choosing the name Patti, because of my well-documented obsession with Patti LuPone.

I LOVE HER. AND HER GINORMOUS MOUTH.

THough to my knowledge, she is still alive and therefore probably not haunting your house.

Though one can never be sure...

Quote from Mamelon

That's the very theory, I believe. It's thought, as I understand, that what stimuli triggers development of these characteristics are discrete, but similar. Neurological development and development of gonads occur in different stages, from different "triggers."

They would have to.

I wonder how rare that is, though?

Precisely.
This is generally the argument I use. "Unnatural" is vague and superstitious. Even if it's "learned" behavior, that'd still be a natural behavior, as it's certainly not artificial. It strikes me that many people don't have any real grasp as to what makes something natural or unnatural, and what is a meaningful definition thereof. And, of course, that's an eminently poor standard for moral systems.

I tend to think of the word "natural" to mean "occurs in nature." Which, as it happens, there are incidences of homosexuality among non-human animals, not that it matters. Often the anti-gay arguer means something along the lines "intended by nature." The problem with this is that it is anthropocentric; nature does not have "intent." Our organs do not possess a "primary biological function." If one day one of our organs was used for a different purpose than it had been used previously, this would be just as valid a function for that organ than any other, though over time if this use continued in the species, the organ might adapt to the new function if it were not particularly efficient to begin with. The functions our organs take are dictated by the environment, and as the environment is not static, neither is the function. For the same reason evolution is more cyclic than progressive. In any case, I think the argument of "natural law" is really little more than a plant for theism and by extension, theocracy or at least some kind of moral authority that isn't based on any logical or practical grounds.

I have very strict ideas about morality, and I definitely think trying to live the "natural" way would be very immoral. I guess that's why I dislike Green, because I think society should have ethics and function independently of the cruel way in which nature operates. It may be short sighted, but I think it's better to cure the person now then to let them die and allow their million-years descendant develop immunity to the same illness. But I'm not a eugenicist.

Even the most cohesive and well reasoned explanations used by religious groups as to why homosexuality or gender "deviation" are wrong operate on unreasonable premises, rely on an authoritarian ethos, or exist in the context of an agenda concerning gender that doesn't have any moral merit.

I have long sought a logically sound argument against being gay (among other things). At one point I even offered to a forum to provide a valid argument against homosexuality where I set aside all of the many invalid arguments (of which there were about 10 I thought up). The response was poor, with everyone responding only to whine that I was being "unfair" to take their arguments away from them.

And religious people really wonder why so many don't follow their religion?

I think when you're placed in such a box where you've never had to think outside your own premises for any reason, it becomes hard to see how anyone could possibly disagree with you. It's easier to think that everyone else is just evil and being "deceived by Satan" than to actually question oneself.

I really love the types who tell you to read the Bible, and then when you inform them that you have, they assert you only disagree because you either "didn't have faith" or "lacked the understanding of the holy ghost." Either way it has to be your fault, and not some flaw on their perfect, divine book's part. Raging idolatry, I say.

I know. I might say that, generally, most people don't care about others, and they don't care about equality.

That's where the White in me comes out.

I don't know if it's a matter of them not caring about equality, so much as not really understanding what it is. I always hear conservatives complaining about how the queer community wants "special rights." They really just don't understand on a fundamental basis what equality under the law is.

Mhm. I went through a phase similar to that, to please my parents. For me, it was a step to realizing how incredibly harmful and wrong repression is.

It's more difficult I think when you are visibly different. Some people can be in the closet if they choose, but that was never an opportunity for me. In a sense I wanted to become more covert and unnoticeable, to not draw attention to myself. I was tired of all the negativity and having a poor self image in which I was a dramatic, transparent and obnoxious stereotypical homosexual.

It took not caring to realize I was never any of those things to begin with.

Me, too. I don't know about you, but I feel as if I tend to be handicapped when it comes to being motivated. I balk, make excuses, feel overwhelmed by pressure, and just try to avoid it all.

Yep.

I keep struggling against it and reverting back to my lazy ways. Perhaps I need a change in environment.

I understand that, and I wouldn't feel bad about it, if you can help it. I experience this not only from physical proximity, but from any kind of interaction, even just from reading someone's words. I sometimes feel disrupted, somehow, as if someone else's consciousness is bearing down on me. This makes sense with viewing someone else's expressions or emotional cues; someone who is more emotionally sensitive is more likely to perceive them in the first place, and then to have a sympathetic reaction, such as responding with similar muscular movements unconsciously, facial expressions, states of mind, etc. Empathy has a very real basis, and is not the mystical faculty of ESP some people insist it must be, and therefore doesn't exist. It's all very overstimulating. Some people think attention is almost like an energy or a medium that transfers this is in metaphysical sense. In any case, it's really amazing how delicate one's emotional "receptors" can be.

Very much so.

I think part of what attracted me to the internet was the remote nature of the communication. I could be "normal" with people and express myself comfortably. I'm much less able to communicate my thoughts in person through speaking.

There are lot of people who tend to avoid others to decrease exposure to this stimulation. I know I do it, and sometimes to my detriment. If I feel like I just can't take it, I can be very aloof and stand-offish, even when I do care. For instance, I like to help by listening to peoples' problems, but it can get to be too much, and I just need to seperate myself. I tend to feel guilty about it, but I have a problem with guilt anyway. I also experience this when someone wants attention from me and I just don't feel like I have it in me to give at the moment - I tend to turn away, avert my gaze, hunch my shoulders. It's not very nice, but sometimes I feel like it's the only reaction I can make.
Also not uncommon, I often feel a need to what to help someone else with their feelings, though this isn't always even possible. Sometimes all someone needs from you is a listener, and the desire to alleviate the pain or discomfort can be maddening when there really isn't anything to be said. I've had so many times when friends have regularly come to me with their issues, oftentimes heartbreaking ones, and this just tore at me internally because I felt powerless to do anything but sit there and absorb it all. As I'm sure you can understand, there have been a lot of times when all I've been able to do in this situation was go somewhere private and cry until it felt better.

Not too many people have come to rely upon me. I have very few close relationships with anyone, and I don't anticipate developing any soon. I think growing up being a loner and an outcast for my sexuality really stunted my social development. Every so often I get caught in the wake of someone else's problems, and it can set me off course for awhile. On one occasion, I overheard a conversation about a girl who had been shot. Her parents refused to come and see her and she was all alone in the hospital. For days I felt miserable about it, thinking about her pain and lonliness and not being able to do anything about it. I eventually had to lock myself in my room and cry it away. Closer encounters are often even more severe.

I like to show compassion to others and help them when I can, but I find the opportunities infrequent. Most do not come to me with their personal problems or ask advice. I think I was bothered by this for a long time, but I have become comfortable with being solitary. Maybe things would be different if I was more charismatic, I don't know.

That's kind of what I'm afraid of. I feel I can really understand your predicament. Part of what might make it so overwhelming, I guess, is that this person you care about so deeply is so close to you at the moment. Those feelings have to be very strong, both satisfying and frightening. As for melting into a puddle, I definitely feel you there. It used to be all he'd have to do was brush against my cheek with his finger, and I'd start trembling, feeling almost helpless. He never kissed me in a very intimate way, such as on the mouth, though, as it didn't get too far. Maybe that was a good thing?
I'd still like to have someone special like that in my life again, only this time someone who really cared about me, too. I hope I'd be able to handle the intensity of the experience. I'm sure time helps. Part of it, for me at least, is this sense of vulnerability that comes over you. Feeling intensely emotionally stimulated, your normal barriers passed over, absorbed into this other person, suddenly very willing to go along with them . . . that kind of thing sounds like it'd be much safer and easier, not to mention more pleasurable, if it's with someone you have a lot of trust for. If you can know that they won't betray that vulnerability, and will share themselves with you in the same way, it doesn't seem as scary, and even becomes immensely gratifying, I'd think.

Yes, and I find that over times it grows and strengthens. We share a bond now that in some ways holds us close even though we spend much of our time apart.

In one sense, I believe sharing with him has allowed me to grow. Many of the things that I had told no one all my life I told to him, and having someone to really talk to was immensely nice. I still have my secrets, but they're the ones I choose to keep, now.

I have noticed I feel less strange about touching someone else, now. He kind of helped me realize that it was okay, and even good, and that I could express that to someone. I didn't feel so weird initiating hugs, and the like, though he was still usually the one to initiate physical contact. I think I came to realize it really isn't some form of aggression, an image I'd had because of my feelings about sex.

Ah.

Hmm. I'm somewhat used to touching people in a platonic way. Ever since I was a child I've had very strong hands with which to give wondrous massages. More intimate interaction is slightly more awkward.

Interestingly, I also tend to have very tense muscles.

I would like to invest in a hot tub of some sort. Although I should probably just move to the tropics. It's a lot colder when you don't have any blubber to protect yourself.

Yeah, me too. I tend to jump when people touch me at all, though very soft contact isn't so bad. If it's more intimate contact, such as touching a more private area (small of back, for example), then I panic.

I am very ticklish, so receiving affections can be challenging at times. I think I've learned to focus and ignore the urge to jump away, but only to an extent.

Quote from FMota

I feel like I'm just crossing that point as well. I'm not surprised at how much more fun it is to be myself, I'm just wondering... why oh why didn't I take the blue pill earlier?

Oh, today I made a funny to myself. Today it was freezing outside. So when I was getting stuff out of my locker, I told Will "The weather's nice outside." And he asked, out of the blue, "Are you gay?" [He does this every now and then. I know he doesn't really mean anything with it.] And I replied "No, and the weather is hot."



I could've said "Yes" rather than being sarcastic, but it was more fun and I don't think I need to deal with coming out right now. At least not for another week.

I first came out to people in middle school. I remember it being such a relief. Weight off your shoulders, even. And it really neutralized the taunts, because suddenly being called gay wasn't an insult... it was an obvious statement.

Quote from BitsyTheInfraggable

*lol* I confess that I myself am a black woman who loves white men. Black men tend to be either extremely rude to be(because I'm fat) or just don't know how to take me(because I'm smart). White men seem less bothered by my fat and my brains. Also, all but 1 of my friends is a white guy. When you play Magic that's all you really meet.

I do know a bunch of black and hispanic Yu-Gi-Oh players but most of them aren't really friends. I'd like to befriend a group of Yu-Gi-Oh players I've named the "Hispanic Death Squad". Its 5 guys who come to the saturday tournaments at the local shop and just murder everyone. They keep up on the most popular decks, know what a side deck is and how to use it, and help each other out when it comes to stuff like trades and playtesting. Most of the YGO players in the area suck(I do in comparison to them) and only 2 people aside from them have any chance of T8'ing at Regionals or an SJC(its somewhere between MSS and the Pro Tour). My mentor(who ironically sucked at YGO when I met him) is the best player in the area(no one ever argues this point; its just how it is) but is a shy person and doesn't like calling attention to himself. He's a good Magic player too but quit(at least for now) to focus more on YGO judging. I'm a YGO judge as well and I wish I were a Magic judge but no events come close enough. Some come to Canada but now I need a passport to go to Canada and that's going to take some time. Toronto and Hamilton are closer than Syracuse and Rochester. Being a Magic judge would be easier than being a YGO judge. YGO has alot of contradictory rulings and gameplay can get extremely complicated, especially during the battle phase. Anyone who says YGO is a simple game has either never played or never played well.

I think the wording on Yu-Gi-Oh cards is a little bit awkward and even mangled sometimes. Magic has really streamlined its legalistic language on cards, which I prefer.

I think that Yu-Gi-Oh has some potential, but it hasn't reached it yet. It would be great if they had some kind of resource system to work with, because just playing everything for free leads to cards being binary - broken or trash.

Quote from Erasmus

...

Any relation to Charles Darwin?

The problem I have with Yu-Gi-Oh is almost entirely rules text. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, BE CONSISTENT.

Really. Half the time I can't tell what a card does, because it's vague, and I can't go to another card for guidance, because that may say the same thing differently.

And, yes, "everything-for-free" can be an issue too.

Yu-Gi-Oh had a huge overhaul about 2 years ago where they changed the wording of alot of cards, which were incorrect due to bad translators, when they did the reprint series Dark Beginnings and Dark Revalations. So most of the confusing text has been cleared up. Its just that some cards that seemed bad at first are now top tier. Chaos Sorcerer is a prime example. It has 2300 ATK(DEF doesn't matter that much) and can remove 1 faceup monster from play every turn but you can't attack with it if you activate its effect. When it was originally released only poor people(like me!!) played with it. But once UDE(Upper Deck Entertainment) posted an FAQ explaining the relationship between certain effects and priority people started playing it. When a monster has an Ignition Effect you can use it right away and your opponent can't stop it and can only respond to the summon of the monster. Meaning your opponent could bring out Chaos Emperor Dragon-Envoy of The End(flashy name huh ;)) and blow everything up before you can Bottomless Trap Hole. In Magic CED couldn't exist.


Believe it or not Konami is trying to ban all the free cards. But no one wants to play the alternatives they give us. Right now monster related themes are being pushed alot and most of them aren't very good. Konami seems afraid to shake the metagame up by making some cards that can be used in nearly any deck. Nowadays many of the new cards are "almost good". The newest set has some actually good stuff and the next set is the one that will make or break Yu-Gi-Oh. Chaos is returning in a new form and there's a series of monsters that are nearly immortal. Plus we're getting a new banned list on 9/1 and I'm hoping Konami, UDE, and Shueisha(they own the copyright to the Yu-Gi-Oh franchise) can hammer out a list that will make people happy. Our current list made most people indifferent at best.

Yu-Gi-Oh will likely fail in the next few years. Not because of poor sales, which are on the rise after a two year slump according to Konami's annual Toy & Hobby report, but because of how poorly the game is managed. Most of the cards Konami designs are bad, Shueisha owns a great deal of the promo cards and they aren't releasing them to the US or are taking their sweet time(it took 4 years to get Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon!!), and UDE doesn't understand how to create and manage different game formats. In every country but Japan Yu-Gi-Oh has two formats: Traditional(Vintage) and Advanced(Standard). All UDE's attention is placed on Advanced and Traditional languishes. Many players bash Traditional as unskilled but I doubt those players were any good at it. Its just alot of fun to use whatever cards you want, so long as they're legal cards, and some decks that are unplayable in Advanced are actually good in Traditional. I think UDE doesn't do anything with Traditional because they make no money off of it. People already have the cards or they can get them easily enough w/o buying any packs. There isn't a Team format at all. Heck, there aren't any official team rules! My good friend Chris, who's also a judge, and I have been trying to hammer out rules for team duels but Yu-Gi-Oh rules can be tricky. Some of the UDE designers made up some team rules but they know as much about the game as a earthworm. *lol* Some of them are our rules gurus but its technical knowledge vs. real life experience. Who knows which is better?

Bah...I hate talking about Yu-Gi-Oh sometimes. It makes me mad. If I weren't so good at it and if I didn't love the kids so much I'd quit. I spend hours of Yahoo! Answers rating decks and giving people advice. I answer Magic questions too but I'm not as good with Magic rulings. I usually end up referring people to Wizards or the various Magic FAQs. I always plug MTGSalvation when I answer Magic questions. Its too awesome to keep to myself.

...Wow. That sounds so ungodly complicated that I'm glad I only tried to play YGO once.

This is the part where I say MTG sounded complicated when I first started, but...no. not really. haha. I remember how i started....went to mall of america for vacation one summer...wandered through the Wizards store...

saw the starter pack for 7E, and went "hey mom, can i have this?" And so it began. I never played tournament stuff though, only casual against my brother and my best friend. He said for having taught myself, i was actually pretty decent at it.

I don't play anymore though, my brother's lost interest and the best friend and i don't speak often [due to..a whole lot of things. would take a week to explain], so..the cards kind of just sit in a binder.

I've considered selling them, but i don't know of any places around the house that would buy them from me. So they sit in the binder, all protected and safe. haha.