Joyd, I liked your last blog entry, and I wanted to comment on it, but the comment box is too small, so I'm posting it here.
I think that the situation blue is in could be described thusly: when it comes to blue, WotC has made it's bed, and is lying in it. Not unlike you, I've had my contentions with the design of blue, only perhaps for different reasons.
As someone who regularly plays with blue, I can say that it's necessary to have an array of countermagic to function as removal, because nothing else in color can cut it. That's the way the color is designed. WotC doesn't want countermagic heavy control to be the staple blue deck, and yet they enable it under the table, so to speak, by consistently printing sets of cards in which that is blue's dynamic. They can't expect players to build historically atypical, proactive blue decks when they refuse to print tools for such a theoretical deck. And what makes it worse is that this responsibility is often overlooked, and players who play the "typical" blue decks with 8+ counterspells are blamed for being insensitive to their opponents and expressing arrogant personalities through Magic.
They made some steps by assigning less quality to hard counterspells, and making less cards that would allow a player to get everything done on the opponent's turn, such as instant card draw. I think these were important steps, and they made a difference, but they weren't enough. The color blue is still delegated to almost pure control, and "control" for blue stills means "countering my opponent's spells."
I see cards like Spin into Myth as quite anomalous, because it's blue "permanent removal." This kind of effect is the kind which WotC seems very reluctant to give to blue, because part of blue's identity has always entailed difficulty getting rid of permanents (because blue is supposed to counter them before they become permanents). Case in point - Spin into Myth is interesting, and playable, but unfortunately, not enough to change much. If I'm running a mono-blue deck and I have four slots to devote to creature removal, I'm probably not going to run Spin into Myth. I'm probably going to run Boomerang or something similar, even though it's a less powerful answer. Why? Because Spin into Myth costs five mana! If you look at other forms of non-countermagic, non-bounce blue removal, it's the same pattern. Confiscate and Polymorph are fine cards, but not really able to compete with all of the other cards that you could use in that slot - like Mana Leak and Remove Soul. If you're playing blue, and you want to get rid of something, and you want it to stay gone, you usually have no option but to try to counter it.
Polymorph, I think, really should cost less. It's stricly worse than Terror no matter what it costs, because it's a sorcery and it's card disadvantage, and sometimes doesn't even really do anything. I've had plenty of times when I've Polymorphed a Serra Angel, or something, only to have my opponent put another Angel into play. That should really cost 1U, but it's the kind of effect that they don't like blue to have, because it feels too much like "destruction."
Only recently have they seemed to work outside the box a bit when it comes to this. Pongify is a surprisingly serviceable card, Threads of Disloyalty was deceptively powerful, and Erratic Mutation and Piracy Charm are much better than they look. But all of those care are either rare, or intentionally atypical in color.
And that's not even the entire problem. More often than not I find myself disappointed with blue's selection of creatures and other cards which aren't pure answers. Another part of blue's identity has always been "weak creatures." They don't want blue to be an aggressive color, a 'violent' color, I suppose. I respect that, but it seems like they could still make quality blue creatures that fit that mold. Now, I'm not saying blue creatures are universally bad. I like a lot of them, but if you want to build a deck that wins with creatures, if often seems like your only choices are a narrow set of flying weenies that white does better, or a few massive finishers that you still need to be playing control to use. Blue is just such an answer-oriented color, and for blue, counterspells are the answers.
There is another thing I want to address. I think one must recognize that the unfunness of blue really is a subjective thing, and that's not insignificant. You said you think most people would agree that Counterspell is an unfun card to play against. I think you are right, because I would certainly agree with that. However, what not everyone may agree with is the extent to which it is unfun. For example, most people may not see Counterspell are being significantly more unfun than other cards with similar functions - like Mortify, Duress, Wrath of God, Orim's Chant, Shunt, or Terror.
I think all of those cards have huge potential to be unfun to play against. I do recognize that many players feel worse about having their spells countered, though, and there must be some merit to that feeling. I do not like having my spell countered either. I paid good mana for that spell! I think one reason people don't like that is because they would be, at that moment, thinking about that spell and wanting it to 'go through,' and then it doesn't. If someone kills your creature during your upkeep, or something, it's not necessarily such a big deal because you're not thinking about that creature. Perhaps for the same reason, I get frustrated with my stuff being killed during combat. I want that attack to connect, and when someone uses Incinerate or something, it just feels like a waste.
One thing I hate more than my spell being countered is someone making me discard cards in my hand. This may be because you have some limited control over something being countered - you can attempt to outmaneuver the counterspell player, trick them into countering the wrong spell, into tapping out, etc. With someone playing a discard spell, there's nothing you can do. It's totally proactive. Likewise, I really don't like playing against burn. Lord, do I hate burn. To me, losing because of some high-damage spell like Consume Spirit or Demonfire or something is one of the most unfun ways to lose. One reason I like counterspells is because those are among the only ways to stop such effects (though white can too, now).
Other players surely do not all feel that way. It may also have to do with what we are used to, and we all have different standards. I definitely agree that Deflection is mean, but I wouldn't agree that it is the meanest. I think that Grapeshot, Persecute, Duress, and stuff like Flashfires are much meaner. The last few examples are just hateful. Choke? Hibernation? Karma? Those are narrow, but downright vicious when applicable!
The only other thing I'd disagree with you about is why people play blue. I think there must be some truth to the idea that people play blue because they value what seems to be blue values - intellectualism, etc - or to feel superior and in control. But there are a lot of reasons why anyone plays anything. I think that's a bit like saying that people play aggro because they are violent, or that people play control because they're paranoid. I've certainly had my fair share of opponents who liked to sit back and grin condescendingly at me as they countered every spell I played. So I can hardly find fault with your having that opinion, but I think it misses something. For instance, some people play colors like blue and white because they are more suited to slower play, and these players enjoy building up resources and having slightly longer or fuller games. I know I have that tendency - when I used to play Warcraft 3, I used to spend at least twice as long as my brother on a given map, because part of the fun for me was constructing a big city or encampment. I am very aware that longer games can be boring, but I don't mean that I prefer really long games (like the ones you and I played that one time, heh), but games that go at least into ten turns and yield larger creatures and more exciting combat and combinations. Also, I just tend to be a person who typically does things at a slower pace, so I like a color that doesn't punish its wielder for that tendency (white and blue are the best examples). I also like green for that reason, because green is the best at accelerating resources.
I really like blue in particular, not just because of its flavor, but because it has a lot of mechanics I like - copying, stealing, bounce, and library manipulation. And, yes, countermagic, because countermagic is excellent protection against all the stuff I really don't like playing against, as I mentioned above. But I do notice that, except for removal and the aforementioned effects, I tend to be bad at using counterspells well. If someone plays a creature, and I have Cancel in my hand, my tendency is not to play the Cancel. For some reason, it's not like that with kinds of removal. I seem to play bounce and stuff like Pacifism just fine every time, but for some reason I don't like to counter things much. Maybe it's because of how much timing goes into playing a counterspell. For this reason I often only play 4 or so countermagic cards in a deck, and often wish I had more to solve the stuff I really hate. I'm starting to think that a greater depth of non-counter removal would help that, and let the counterspells be there for the coup type cards (Cranial Extraction, Ire of Kaminari, etc.). This may be why I'm slowly moving closer and closer to white. It seems like you need more counterspells than other kinds of removal if you want to have it when you need it, and this is why I get tired of having to rely on it.
I'm sure you realize perfectly well that not everyone plays blue cards because they want to counter the hell out of an opponent. I think that's even true of people who like monoblue. It's still irritating as all get out when peopel deify draw-go style control, because it's a miserable archetype to play against. However, what is even more frustrating is that there just doesn't seem to be many other options if you like blue. A lot of people are fine playing with a wall of counterspells, and I'm not.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
@buzz: awww thanks for the sweet compliment *blushes*
@mooka: have a great night and a great weekend!
Well i probably will do legacy of the week later tonight and also i am going to play some dragon quest 7 in a few. Ill be on aol messenger if anyone wants to chat. Have a great morning all and a great saturday! *hugs and blows kisses*
Love,
Cecilia
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I thank Mr. stuff for my banner and avatar.
I thank Sakura for the animation of my avatar.
"Miracles are only worth happening if you make them happen."
--Cecilia
Yoda of Legacy since 2006. Member of the 2005 and 2007 MTGS Magic Team. Also known as kevinliu2333. Current favorite Magic card is Time Elemental
Heh, well...you know. Anyway, I may have answered my RotW in that post, but then again, I was just answering the questions.
Anyway, I'm enjoying my day off so far, but lunch is ready and I'm being dragged along to my brother's haircut. I'm still up for PCL, so PM me if you want to play in a bit.
Wow, didn't think this was possible...but I am both managing to have a bad hair day and a good hair day. I cannot do anything with my hair. I put it even in just a ponytail and clip it aside and I still get random whisps here and there...in my eyes and poking me in the ear...bleh. However, last night I got a ticket in the mail to go pick up what I assume is my wigs Finally
For anyone following my blog, I made ammends with Elsiha. We are getting together tonite to hang out and talk. Things were back to normal with us last night chatting online, and in a few cases better...since we both realized we need to communicate better.
Anyone see this new Key Locket or whatever it is called in Future Sight. OMG. They made Sensei Sensei playable in Extended. I love this card. My only beef with this block, is too many duplicate cards. Two or more cards which do basically the same thing. Why would a block have both Locket of Yesteryears and Key Locket???? Admitted each is better in certain situations...but still. There are alot of cards like this in this block. Heck, they remade Sedge Troll twice.
Don't get me wrong, I love this block. I just wish they didn't duplicate alot of cards functionally within the same block. Some cards are fine, but a card as Narrow in design as locket is kind of silly and redundant.
I like duplicate cards, it lets you more effectively run specific effects than you could. I mean, you wouldn't ***** if there were multiple burn spells or multiple counters. I like being able to make use of less common effects in greater reliability.
After perusing the art and flavor texts of the new cards, I have some interesting speculations-
Muraganda Petroglyphs, Imperiosaur, Nactl War-Band, Narcomeba: These cards seem to suggest a future set taking place in an Aztec, rainforest, or South American setting.
Patrician's Scorn: This card has an interesting flavor and art. The art and flavor seems almost Victorian in a way.
Goldmeadow Lookout, Phosphorescent Feast, Mistmeadow Skulk: They sort of have a distinct fairy tale flavor, and sort of suggest a possible Irish or Celtic inspired set in the future.
From a design perspective, duplicate effects are something you want to avoid. Effects with a similar goal but executed differently are fine and dandy. I love those 2 cards, but one of those 2 might not have made it in the block if I was designing it, but I wouldn't be against it from the get-go.
I was coughing kinda alot this morning i think i caught a minor cold and hopefully it doesnt get worse. Im glad i have saturday and tommorrow off though so i can relax and get some rest before i go back to work. I was surprised at myself that i was able to work 31 hours this week i might work more hours next week too. I wanted to stay longer for work but i couldnt stay beyond 8 hours and i wouldve been the only courtesy clerk there again.
See you all soon! *hugs and blows kisses*
Love,
Cecilia
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I thank Mr. stuff for my banner and avatar.
I thank Sakura for the animation of my avatar.
"Miracles are only worth happening if you make them happen."
--Cecilia
Yoda of Legacy since 2006. Member of the 2005 and 2007 MTGS Magic Team. Also known as kevinliu2333. Current favorite Magic card is Time Elemental
From a design perspective, duplicate effects are something you want to avoid. Effects with a similar goal but executed differently are fine and dandy. I love those 2 cards, but one of those 2 might not have made it in the block if I was designing it, but I wouldn't be against it from the get-go.
A) I am a player. I actually don't care about the design problems of it. I like having multiple effects, it's nice for me.
B) Locket of Yesterdays and Cloud Key aren't in the same block at all. They are just in the same Standard currently.
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
1. What do you prefer to be called?
On here, Yukora. I only like having my closer firneds on here call me Ryan.
2. What's the meaning behind your screen name?
First rare from a draft, and it was the first card I won a tournament with. 3. When did you first come to MTGS, and why?
May 2005. I heard it was a great place for spoilers. 4. Where is your favorite place to visit on MTGS?
The Clans forum is easily my favorite. It's where I got my start on Salvation, and where I spend the majority of my timeon this site. 5. What is your favorite card in MTG, and why?
I don't know right now. It used to be counterspell, but there are a lot of cards in Future Sight that have caught my eye. 6. What's your favorite/current deck, and tell us a bit about it.
I'll use an entire post to answer this. 7. What other hobbies do you have?
Football, wrestling, and Scouts. 8. Tell us a bit about yourself- it can be anything, so long as it is something we may not know and you are comfortable sharing it.
. 9. What are some of your hopes and dreams?
Get into the pharmacy program at UMKC. 10. Are you currently working on any creative or personal projects? If so, tell us a bit more about them.
. 11. What's your favorite thing about the Coffeehouse?
Great place to relax, and vent when need be. 12. What's your favorite menu item at the Coffeehouse?
eh, don't have one. 13. Name someone in the Coffeehouse you really admire/enjoy having around.
I really enjoy having Mamelon around. She always seems to have some good advice, and a comforting word when it's needed.
Sorry to kinda nullify your second argument, Photon, but Locket of Yesterdays and Cloud Key are indeed in the same block. Not in the same set.
Anyway, as a player, it's fine by me what Wizards prints.
Damn, made a mistake. I thought it was from Coldsnap.
Regardless, I don't really see the harm in it. It just proves that Magic players will whine about anything, though.
"Damn Wizards giving us too much good stuff! That key should have been a futureshifted Kitsune Samurai, dammit! Not another playable combo enabler! Isn't Tier 1 already pretty crowded?!"
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
Reducing the costs of spells is a very, very broad mechanic; there's not a single deck that wouldn't benefit from a cost reduction for its spells. (Okay, maybe Ichorid or something). Locket of Yesterdays and Cloud Key have -completely- different applications. Both are cards that grow in potential if your deck is built around them, but the direction they encourage you to pull your deck in are totally unrelated. They're duplicates no more than, say Flow of Ideas and Novijen Sages are duplicates.
Kevin, I hope you feel better soon. You said you were sick a while back, too. You might still be adjusting to working as you do. It's nice to have the weekend off, at least, since you can relax.
Have fun with Dragon Quest 7. I might talk to you later tonight, hun.
@Duplicate effects: I think they are good from a design perspective for certain purposes. Many cards which regularly appear together might be thought of as duplicate effects. But powerful effects need to be mitigated in some way, and keeping them rare is one way to do that. I agree with Joyd's assessment about these two cards.
And welcome to the Coffeehouse, MKZ. I hope you enjoy it here.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
@Cecilia - I'm sorry to hear that you feel ill. I hope you feel better soon.
@"Top in sight" - I love Cloud Key. I have been toying with an extended deck that abuses locket and top, only it seems a turn too slow. Cloud key, in tandem with locket, should be enough to push my deck into serious viability. The art is very nice as well.
@CA - Yeah, we should totally do our own prerelease. Omna and I talked about it in the last thread a bit, and I think it would be great fun.
@Mooka - Welcome to the Coffeehouse!
@Sakura - I'm glad you worked some of the issues out with your friend. Just so I'm not confused, is she the "friend with benifits"? or the one who tested your choice? Either way, I'm happy to hear things are going better.
Kevin, I hope you feel better soon. You said you were sick a while back, too. You might still be adjusting to working as you do. It's nice to have the weekend off, at least, since you can relax.
Have fun with Dragon Quest 7. I might talk to you later tonight, hun.
@Duplicate effects: I think they are good from a design perspective for certain purposes. Many cards which regularly appear together might be thought of as duplicate effects. But powerful effects need to be mitigated in some way, and keeping them rare is one way to do that. I agree with Joyd's assessment about these two cards.
And welcome to the Coffeehouse, MKZ. I hope you enjoy it here.
Its definetly a cold but although its not really that bad at all mamelon so dont worry;). Yeah probably am still adjusting to work but its going to take awhile to adjust since my schedule constantly changes each week and working increasing hours each week isnt something im used to yet but its all good though. Thank you so much for your concern mamelon. Sure ill be on later tonight hun see you soon.
Thanks mamelon im pretty sure ill have fun playing dq7.
@shaharazad:Thanks for your concern as well i just feel a little bit sick its not too bad i know it probably could of been alot worse but im pretty glad it isnt.
@CA - Yeah, we should totally do our own prerelease. Omna and I talked about it in the last thread a bit, and I think it would be great fun.
That's sorta why I brought it up. Of course, I didn't think the FS Netdraft patch would be released so soon. I usually don't hear about that stuff until a week or two after the set's been released. So that's my bad on that.
The MWS patch is another thing, entirely. Funnily enough I only found one source of that so far - and that's a thread in Magic Software. FS is happening totally backwards for me!
@Locket and Key: Joyd - FTW! That's all I gots to say on that.
This is every single day of my life. My bangs aren't quite long enough to reach the ponytail joint unless I wear it high, and then the hair on the top of my neck sort of splays out underneath. What I do many days is to make highish, forwardish pigtails first, then tie the pigtails in the back.
That sounds like a good idea.
I have similar problems with my hair. My hair is so troublsome it drives me nuts. It used to be long enough that I tied it in the back, and it had the same kind of problem. The problem I have is that my hair is really culry and wavy, and it falls over my ears and annoys me when its long, and tends to get kind of frizzy. I think I might just need to let it grow even longer. I've begun just using hair clips on the sides to hold it in place, and that seems to work fine.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Alrighty folks. My project for today: Finally organize and list what I have for trade in my binder, and see if I can't arrange something with some of you guys for trades. Then I'm gonna go shopping online for singles--my gift to myself for not going to the prerelease.
@Sakura - I'm glad you worked some of the issues out with your friend. Just so I'm not confused, is she the "friend with benifits"? or the one who tested your choice? Either way, I'm happy to hear things are going better.
The first one.
At duplicate cards. Multiple burn spells in a block is not a big deal. Two functional reprints of Sedge Troll in the same block is redundant. Teferi's Moat and Magus of the Moat? There are alot of cards like this in the block. While Locket of Yesterdays and Cloud Key can find homes in different decks, they overlap alot and are not a very common ability. Though twice we have seen this effect as part of a cycle, these both make artifacts cheaper as well which has proven to be an abusive problem. While Locket required alot of tinkering to make work right, the Cloud Key is nuts. As Johnny I approve and want 4, but it just seems odd and out of place with Locket already in place.
Alacar's GW Ach hans deck is pretty crazy last night i was playing with it against alacar for some casual matches. The deck is alot more deadly then it looks but i like it. The ability to continue thinning out your deck of lands is like drawing cards for the deck.
Love,
Cecilia
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I thank Mr. stuff for my banner and avatar.
I thank Sakura for the animation of my avatar.
"Miracles are only worth happening if you make them happen."
--Cecilia
Yoda of Legacy since 2006. Member of the 2005 and 2007 MTGS Magic Team. Also known as kevinliu2333. Current favorite Magic card is Time Elemental
Well, since my Regular of the Week was like, a long time ago, here we go
1. What do you prefer to be called? Jeff, Psychoburner, or any reasonable shortening of my username
2. What's the meaning behind your screen name?
One of my first ever decent-quality decks was a R/U deck that I called Psychoburn
3. When did you first come to MTGS, and why?
January of last year. I came for the rumors, stayed for the people
4. Where is your favorite place to visit on MTGS?
Clans forum, specifically the Coffeehouse and Natural 20
5. What is your favorite card in MTG, and why?
Niv Mizzet, the Firemind. Dragons, burning, and card drawing
6. What's your favorite/current deck, and tell us a bit about it.
Currently my mono-black deck. It's a very johnny-timmy deck
7. What other hobbies do you have?
reading, writing, DnD and videogames
8. Tell us a bit about yourself- it can be anything, so long as it is something we may not know and you are comfortable sharing it.
I have seizures, but they are under control
9. What are some of your hopes and dreams?
to be an author, and to meet a nice girl and settle down to have a family
10. Are you currently working on any creative or personal projects? If so, tell us a bit more about them.
I am always working on creative personal projects. From poetry to short stories to novels to doodling to my own homebrew tabletop RPG
11. What's your favorite thing about the Coffeehouse?
The people. You guys are great
12. What's your favorite menu item at the Coffeehouse?
13. Name someone in the Coffeehouse you really admire/enjoy having around
It's a tie, really, 3 ways. Ethersphere's the RPG expert and I always enjoy what he has to say. Photon's someone I consider a good friend and very funny, and Omna is a sweet and gentle person that I share many things in common with.
Today's been a pretty good day. The weather's lovely, and we're having homemade fajitas for dinner.
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Banner and avatar by me.
Official Character Sheet Shredder of DAMNIT
DAMNIT: I should never have to shred my own character sheet in frustration.
Ugg, I can't figure out how to update MWS. I hate being noobish to these things, but I'm using it for the first time in the Coffeehouse league. I downloaded it, and unzipped it to mws. I looked over mws and couldn't find the file you described, so I put it in both my data folder (which didn't work) and then into MWS dirrectly. I have no clue how to incorporate it into my existing dirrecory as I can't find it.
As someone who regularly plays with blue, I can say that it's necessary to have an array of countermagic to function as removal, because nothing else in color can cut it. That's the way the color is designed. WotC doesn't want countermagic heavy control to be the staple blue deck, and yet they enable it under the table, so to speak, by consistently printing sets of cards in which that is blue's dynamic. They can't expect players to build historically atypical, proactive blue decks when they refuse to print tools for such a theoretical deck. And what makes it worse is that this responsibility is often overlooked, and players who play the "typical" blue decks with 8+ counterspells are blamed for being insensitive to their opponents and expressing arrogant personalities through Magic.
They made some steps by assigning less quality to hard counterspells, and making less cards that would allow a player to get everything done on the opponent's turn, such as instant card draw. I think these were important steps, and they made a difference, but they weren't enough. The color blue is still delegated to almost pure control, and "control" for blue stills means "countering my opponent's spells."
I see cards like Spin into Myth as quite anomalous, because it's blue "permanent removal." This kind of effect is the kind which WotC seems very reluctant to give to blue, because part of blue's identity has always entailed difficulty getting rid of permanents (because blue is supposed to counter them before they become permanents). Case in point - Spin into Myth is interesting, and playable, but unfortunately, not enough to change much. If I'm running a mono-blue deck and I have four slots to devote to creature removal, I'm probably not going to run Spin into Myth. I'm probably going to run Boomerang or something similar, even though it's a less powerful answer. Why? Because Spin into Myth costs five mana! If you look at other forms of non-countermagic, non-bounce blue removal, it's the same pattern. Confiscate and Polymorph are fine cards, but not really able to compete with all of the other cards that you could use in that slot - like Mana Leak and Remove Soul. If you're playing blue, and you want to get rid of something, and you want it to stay gone, you usually have no option but to try to counter it.
Polymorph, I think, really should cost less. It's stricly worse than Terror no matter what it costs, because it's a sorcery and it's card disadvantage, and sometimes doesn't even really do anything. I've had plenty of times when I've Polymorphed a Serra Angel, or something, only to have my opponent put another Angel into play. That should really cost 1U, but it's the kind of effect that they don't like blue to have, because it feels too much like "destruction."
Only recently have they seemed to work outside the box a bit when it comes to this. Pongify is a surprisingly serviceable card, Threads of Disloyalty was deceptively powerful, and Erratic Mutation and Piracy Charm are much better than they look. But all of those care are either rare, or intentionally atypical in color.
And that's not even the entire problem. More often than not I find myself disappointed with blue's selection of creatures and other cards which aren't pure answers. Another part of blue's identity has always been "weak creatures." They don't want blue to be an aggressive color, a 'violent' color, I suppose. I respect that, but it seems like they could still make quality blue creatures that fit that mold. Now, I'm not saying blue creatures are universally bad. I like a lot of them, but if you want to build a deck that wins with creatures, if often seems like your only choices are a narrow set of flying weenies that white does better, or a few massive finishers that you still need to be playing control to use. Blue is just such an answer-oriented color, and for blue, counterspells are the answers.
There is another thing I want to address. I think one must recognize that the unfunness of blue really is a subjective thing, and that's not insignificant. You said you think most people would agree that Counterspell is an unfun card to play against. I think you are right, because I would certainly agree with that. However, what not everyone may agree with is the extent to which it is unfun. For example, most people may not see Counterspell are being significantly more unfun than other cards with similar functions - like Mortify, Duress, Wrath of God, Orim's Chant, Shunt, or Terror.
I think all of those cards have huge potential to be unfun to play against. I do recognize that many players feel worse about having their spells countered, though, and there must be some merit to that feeling. I do not like having my spell countered either. I paid good mana for that spell! I think one reason people don't like that is because they would be, at that moment, thinking about that spell and wanting it to 'go through,' and then it doesn't. If someone kills your creature during your upkeep, or something, it's not necessarily such a big deal because you're not thinking about that creature. Perhaps for the same reason, I get frustrated with my stuff being killed during combat. I want that attack to connect, and when someone uses Incinerate or something, it just feels like a waste.
One thing I hate more than my spell being countered is someone making me discard cards in my hand. This may be because you have some limited control over something being countered - you can attempt to outmaneuver the counterspell player, trick them into countering the wrong spell, into tapping out, etc. With someone playing a discard spell, there's nothing you can do. It's totally proactive. Likewise, I really don't like playing against burn. Lord, do I hate burn. To me, losing because of some high-damage spell like Consume Spirit or Demonfire or something is one of the most unfun ways to lose. One reason I like counterspells is because those are among the only ways to stop such effects (though white can too, now).
Other players surely do not all feel that way. It may also have to do with what we are used to, and we all have different standards. I definitely agree that Deflection is mean, but I wouldn't agree that it is the meanest. I think that Grapeshot, Persecute, Duress, and stuff like Flashfires are much meaner. The last few examples are just hateful. Choke? Hibernation? Karma? Those are narrow, but downright vicious when applicable!
The only other thing I'd disagree with you about is why people play blue. I think there must be some truth to the idea that people play blue because they value what seems to be blue values - intellectualism, etc - or to feel superior and in control. But there are a lot of reasons why anyone plays anything. I think that's a bit like saying that people play aggro because they are violent, or that people play control because they're paranoid. I've certainly had my fair share of opponents who liked to sit back and grin condescendingly at me as they countered every spell I played. So I can hardly find fault with your having that opinion, but I think it misses something. For instance, some people play colors like blue and white because they are more suited to slower play, and these players enjoy building up resources and having slightly longer or fuller games. I know I have that tendency - when I used to play Warcraft 3, I used to spend at least twice as long as my brother on a given map, because part of the fun for me was constructing a big city or encampment. I am very aware that longer games can be boring, but I don't mean that I prefer really long games (like the ones you and I played that one time, heh), but games that go at least into ten turns and yield larger creatures and more exciting combat and combinations. Also, I just tend to be a person who typically does things at a slower pace, so I like a color that doesn't punish its wielder for that tendency (white and blue are the best examples). I also like green for that reason, because green is the best at accelerating resources.
I really like blue in particular, not just because of its flavor, but because it has a lot of mechanics I like - copying, stealing, bounce, and library manipulation. And, yes, countermagic, because countermagic is excellent protection against all the stuff I really don't like playing against, as I mentioned above. But I do notice that, except for removal and the aforementioned effects, I tend to be bad at using counterspells well. If someone plays a creature, and I have Cancel in my hand, my tendency is not to play the Cancel. For some reason, it's not like that with kinds of removal. I seem to play bounce and stuff like Pacifism just fine every time, but for some reason I don't like to counter things much. Maybe it's because of how much timing goes into playing a counterspell. For this reason I often only play 4 or so countermagic cards in a deck, and often wish I had more to solve the stuff I really hate. I'm starting to think that a greater depth of non-counter removal would help that, and let the counterspells be there for the coup type cards (Cranial Extraction, Ire of Kaminari, etc.). This may be why I'm slowly moving closer and closer to white. It seems like you need more counterspells than other kinds of removal if you want to have it when you need it, and this is why I get tired of having to rely on it.
I'm sure you realize perfectly well that not everyone plays blue cards because they want to counter the hell out of an opponent. I think that's even true of people who like monoblue. It's still irritating as all get out when peopel deify draw-go style control, because it's a miserable archetype to play against. However, what is even more frustrating is that there just doesn't seem to be many other options if you like blue. A lot of people are fine playing with a wall of counterspells, and I'm not.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
@mooka: have a great night and a great weekend!
Well i probably will do legacy of the week later tonight and also i am going to play some dragon quest 7 in a few. Ill be on aol messenger if anyone wants to chat. Have a great morning all and a great saturday! *hugs and blows kisses*
Love,
Cecilia
I thank Mr. stuff for my banner and avatar.
I thank Sakura for the animation of my avatar.
"Miracles are only worth happening if you make them happen."
--Cecilia
Yoda of Legacy since 2006.
Member of the 2005 and 2007 MTGS Magic Team.
Also known as kevinliu2333.
Current favorite Magic card is Time Elemental
Anyway, I'm enjoying my day off so far, but lunch is ready and I'm being dragged along to my brother's haircut. I'm still up for PCL, so PM me if you want to play in a bit.
Windmills do not work that way!
The cards you are thinking of are Locket of Yesterdays and Cloud Key.
I like duplicate cards, it lets you more effectively run specific effects than you could. I mean, you wouldn't ***** if there were multiple burn spells or multiple counters. I like being able to make use of less common effects in greater reliability.
After perusing the art and flavor texts of the new cards, I have some interesting speculations-
Muraganda Petroglyphs, Imperiosaur, Nactl War-Band, Narcomeba: These cards seem to suggest a future set taking place in an Aztec, rainforest, or South American setting.
Patrician's Scorn: This card has an interesting flavor and art. The art and flavor seems almost Victorian in a way.
Goldmeadow Lookout, Phosphorescent Feast, Mistmeadow Skulk: They sort of have a distinct fairy tale flavor, and sort of suggest a possible Irish or Celtic inspired set in the future.
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Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
See you all soon! *hugs and blows kisses*
Love,
Cecilia
I thank Mr. stuff for my banner and avatar.
I thank Sakura for the animation of my avatar.
"Miracles are only worth happening if you make them happen."
--Cecilia
Yoda of Legacy since 2006.
Member of the 2005 and 2007 MTGS Magic Team.
Also known as kevinliu2333.
Current favorite Magic card is Time Elemental
A) I am a player. I actually don't care about the design problems of it. I like having multiple effects, it's nice for me.
B) Locket of Yesterdays and Cloud Key aren't in the same block at all. They are just in the same Standard currently.
On here, Yukora. I only like having my closer firneds on here call me Ryan.
First rare from a draft, and it was the first card I won a tournament with.
3. When did you first come to MTGS, and why?
May 2005. I heard it was a great place for spoilers.
4. Where is your favorite place to visit on MTGS?
The Clans forum is easily my favorite. It's where I got my start on Salvation, and where I spend the majority of my timeon this site.
5. What is your favorite card in MTG, and why?
I don't know right now. It used to be counterspell, but there are a lot of cards in Future Sight that have caught my eye.
6. What's your favorite/current deck, and tell us a bit about it.
I'll use an entire post to answer this.
7. What other hobbies do you have?
Football, wrestling, and Scouts.
8. Tell us a bit about yourself- it can be anything, so long as it is something we may not know and you are comfortable sharing it.
.
9. What are some of your hopes and dreams?
Get into the pharmacy program at UMKC.
10. Are you currently working on any creative or personal projects? If so, tell us a bit more about them.
.
11. What's your favorite thing about the Coffeehouse?
Great place to relax, and vent when need be.
12. What's your favorite menu item at the Coffeehouse?
eh, don't have one.
13. Name someone in the Coffeehouse you really admire/enjoy having around.
I really enjoy having Mamelon around. She always seems to have some good advice, and a comforting word when it's needed.
Anyway, as a player, it's fine by me what Wizards prints.
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Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
Damn, made a mistake. I thought it was from Coldsnap.
Regardless, I don't really see the harm in it. It just proves that Magic players will whine about anything, though.
"Damn Wizards giving us too much good stuff! That key should have been a futureshifted Kitsune Samurai, dammit! Not another playable combo enabler! Isn't Tier 1 already pretty crowded?!"
Have fun with Dragon Quest 7. I might talk to you later tonight, hun.
@Duplicate effects: I think they are good from a design perspective for certain purposes. Many cards which regularly appear together might be thought of as duplicate effects. But powerful effects need to be mitigated in some way, and keeping them rare is one way to do that. I agree with Joyd's assessment about these two cards.
And welcome to the Coffeehouse, MKZ. I hope you enjoy it here.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
@"Top in sight" - I love Cloud Key. I have been toying with an extended deck that abuses locket and top, only it seems a turn too slow. Cloud key, in tandem with locket, should be enough to push my deck into serious viability. The art is very nice as well.
@CA - Yeah, we should totally do our own prerelease. Omna and I talked about it in the last thread a bit, and I think it would be great fun.
@Mooka - Welcome to the Coffeehouse!
@Sakura - I'm glad you worked some of the issues out with your friend. Just so I'm not confused, is she the "friend with benifits"? or the one who tested your choice? Either way, I'm happy to hear things are going better.
Its definetly a cold but although its not really that bad at all mamelon so dont worry;). Yeah probably am still adjusting to work but its going to take awhile to adjust since my schedule constantly changes each week and working increasing hours each week isnt something im used to yet but its all good though. Thank you so much for your concern mamelon. Sure ill be on later tonight hun see you soon.
Thanks mamelon im pretty sure ill have fun playing dq7.
@shaharazad:Thanks for your concern as well i just feel a little bit sick its not too bad i know it probably could of been alot worse but im pretty glad it isnt.
Love,
Cecilia
I thank Mr. stuff for my banner and avatar.
I thank Sakura for the animation of my avatar.
"Miracles are only worth happening if you make them happen."
--Cecilia
Yoda of Legacy since 2006.
Member of the 2005 and 2007 MTGS Magic Team.
Also known as kevinliu2333.
Current favorite Magic card is Time Elemental
That's sorta why I brought it up. Of course, I didn't think the FS Netdraft patch would be released so soon. I usually don't hear about that stuff until a week or two after the set's been released. So that's my bad on that.
The MWS patch is another thing, entirely. Funnily enough I only found one source of that so far - and that's a thread in Magic Software. FS is happening totally backwards for me!
@Locket and Key: Joyd - FTW! That's all I gots to say on that.
That sounds like a good idea.
I have similar problems with my hair. My hair is so troublsome it drives me nuts. It used to be long enough that I tied it in the back, and it had the same kind of problem. The problem I have is that my hair is really culry and wavy, and it falls over my ears and annoys me when its long, and tends to get kind of frizzy. I think I might just need to let it grow even longer. I've begun just using hair clips on the sides to hold it in place, and that seems to work fine.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
The first one.
At duplicate cards. Multiple burn spells in a block is not a big deal. Two functional reprints of Sedge Troll in the same block is redundant. Teferi's Moat and Magus of the Moat? There are alot of cards like this in the block. While Locket of Yesterdays and Cloud Key can find homes in different decks, they overlap alot and are not a very common ability. Though twice we have seen this effect as part of a cycle, these both make artifacts cheaper as well which has proven to be an abusive problem. While Locket required alot of tinkering to make work right, the Cloud Key is nuts. As Johnny I approve and want 4, but it just seems odd and out of place with Locket already in place.
Also, adding a solid Helm of Awakenning/Medallion redo to a standard meta full of good storm cards seems pretty freaky. Cloud Key + Grinning Ignus + Empty the Warrens/Grapeshot/Demonfire seems like a good start for a deck to me. Add Rite of Flame/Seething Song. Add Locket of Yesterdays of consistancy.
Love,
Cecilia
I thank Mr. stuff for my banner and avatar.
I thank Sakura for the animation of my avatar.
"Miracles are only worth happening if you make them happen."
--Cecilia
Yoda of Legacy since 2006.
Member of the 2005 and 2007 MTGS Magic Team.
Also known as kevinliu2333.
Current favorite Magic card is Time Elemental
1. What do you prefer to be called? Jeff, Psychoburner, or any reasonable shortening of my username
2. What's the meaning behind your screen name?
One of my first ever decent-quality decks was a R/U deck that I called Psychoburn
3. When did you first come to MTGS, and why?
January of last year. I came for the rumors, stayed for the people
4. Where is your favorite place to visit on MTGS?
Clans forum, specifically the Coffeehouse and Natural 20
5. What is your favorite card in MTG, and why?
Niv Mizzet, the Firemind. Dragons, burning, and card drawing
6. What's your favorite/current deck, and tell us a bit about it.
Currently my mono-black deck. It's a very johnny-timmy deck
7. What other hobbies do you have?
reading, writing, DnD and videogames
8. Tell us a bit about yourself- it can be anything, so long as it is something we may not know and you are comfortable sharing it.
I have seizures, but they are under control
9. What are some of your hopes and dreams?
to be an author, and to meet a nice girl and settle down to have a family
10. Are you currently working on any creative or personal projects? If so, tell us a bit more about them.
I am always working on creative personal projects. From poetry to short stories to novels to doodling to my own homebrew tabletop RPG
11. What's your favorite thing about the Coffeehouse?
The people. You guys are great
12. What's your favorite menu item at the Coffeehouse?
13. Name someone in the Coffeehouse you really admire/enjoy having around
It's a tie, really, 3 ways. Ethersphere's the RPG expert and I always enjoy what he has to say. Photon's someone I consider a good friend and very funny, and Omna is a sweet and gentle person that I share many things in common with.
Today's been a pretty good day. The weather's lovely, and we're having homemade fajitas for dinner.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
lady evangela, chromium, gosta dirk, kei takahashi, angus mackenzie, arcades sabboth, rubinia soul singer, rubinia signed, nebuchadnezzar, boris devilboon, hunding gjornersen, ragnar, jasmine boreal, tetsuo umezawa, lord magnuss.
Nice avatar and banner alacar!
See you all soon! *hugs and blows kisses*
Love,
Cecilia
I thank Mr. stuff for my banner and avatar.
I thank Sakura for the animation of my avatar.
"Miracles are only worth happening if you make them happen."
--Cecilia
Yoda of Legacy since 2006.
Member of the 2005 and 2007 MTGS Magic Team.
Also known as kevinliu2333.
Current favorite Magic card is Time Elemental
Looks good, except for the Gitu Fire pic...its bleh.
As for making it blink.. I'll attach the full art for you. Feel free to make her blink! I'd love it.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei