Suicide is one of the dumbest things you could ever do. My friend Jim did it two years ago, and I'm still mad at him for doing something so incredibly stupid. He had a wonderful life, and no one could understand why he did it.
Anyway...Mikey and I went to see the sunrise this morning. It was really pretty. Then we went rock climbing [on the rocks on the shore]...came back here, and slept until like..noon. Then one thing kind of led to another....and a while later my brother and his friend noticed what we were doing and came downstairs on purpose.
I'm going to ****ing murder them.
two more days....
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Wow. I'm somewhat shocked to see a forum member talking about suicide, but I'm more shocked at the reaction. Micah, Jo... I'll grant you that some people who threaten suicide might just be feeling sorry for themselves and need a good kick in the ass. But many are honestly and truly suicidal and they need help. Do either of you know iamnotjohn well enough to tell the difference?
iamnotjohn, obviously I do not know your situation but based on what you've said, here is what I think. First, it looks like you've said your suicidal thoughts are a reaction to the events of the past year but that they came on rather suddenly and recently. I also see you said you haven't been sleeping. I'm going to take a guess and say that you haven't had much of an appetite lately either. To me this sounds more like a case of depression rather than suidical feelings.
Generally, if you're suicidal it means you are enduring more pain than you know how to cope with. On the other hand, if you're depressed you're not really feeling overwhelmed with pain, but you never really feel good; you feel tired, you don't feel like doing anything at all. Either way is not a way you want to live, but it's important to understand how you feel before you can do anything about it.
You said you want help but don't know how to get it or who to talk to. These are people who will listen, who will understand exactly what you are going through, who won't judge you, and can tell you exactly what you need to do in order to get the help you need. Call them. Don't think about it, just do it.
And, of course, you can talk to us. We'll listen and we will do our best to help. I also strongly encourage you to talk to someone in your life. Obviously, your coworkers aren't the best place to start. But I'd be willing to bet there's a minumum of one person you know who will be there for you if you have an honest and open discussion about how you feel and why and how they might be able to help you. But, seriously, call the hotline. Even if it's just for a little advice, or to be able to vent to someone who will listen. It doesn't have to be a big deal. Just call them. Right now. Not later, not when you finish whatever you're doing. Right now.
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Wow. I'm somewhat shocked to see a forum member talking about suicide, but I'm more shocked at the reaction. Micah, Jo... I'll grant you that some people who threaten suicide might just be feeling sorry for themselves and need a good kick in the ass. But many are honestly and truly suicidal and they need help. Do either of you know iamnotjohn well enough to tell the difference?
iamnotjohn, obviously I do not know your situation but based on what you've said, here is what I think. First, it looks like you've said your suicidal thoughts are a reaction to the events of the past year but that they came on rather suddenly and recently. I also see you said you haven't been sleeping. I'm going to take a guess and say that you haven't had much of an appetite lately either. To me this sounds more like a case of depression rather than suidical feelings.
Generally, if you're suicidal it means you are enduring more pain than you know how to cope with. On the other hand, if you're depressed you're not really feeling overwhelmed with pain, but you never really feel good; you feel tired, you don't feel like doing anything at all. Either way is not a way you want to live, but it's important to understand how you feel before you can do anything about it.
You said you want help but don't know how to get it or who to talk to. These are people who will listen, who will understand exactly what you are going through, who won't judge you, and can tell you exactly what you need to do in order to get the help you need. Call them. Don't think about it, just do it.
And, of course, you can talk to us. We'll listen and we will do our best to help. I also strongly encourage you to talk to someone in your life. Obviously, your coworkers aren't the best place to start. But I'd be willing to bet there's a minumum of one person you know who will be there for you if you have an honest and open discussion about how you feel and why and how they might be able to help you. But, seriously, call the hotline. Even if it's just for a little advice, or to be able to vent to someone who will listen. It doesn't have to be a big deal. Just call them. Right now. Not later, not when you finish whatever you're doing. Right now.
Here in gaymers we pretty much have a "No suicide" policy. People have talked about it before and we basically won't tolerate it. It's not for lack of compassion for most of others I guess but for me it's a non-answer to a real problem. I don't mean to seem callous really. I promise I don't. I want to have more compassion but for some reason I just don't.
That's why I want to know what his problem because just saying "I'm thinking about suicide" is not an answer to the question, "What's the problem"
That was supposed to be the gist in the original message. Without knowing more the only thing I can offer up is my opinion of suicide in general. I took from the tone that iamnotjohn was being subtle and when it comes to problems I don't believe in hiding behind a facade.
iamnotjohn: We all have a lot of experience helping people. I know I do. I'm logical and cold but I can help. Sometimes it's okay to feel down and out. It's not the end of the world just because you're not happy. People get like that from time to time.
I didn't mean that iamnotjohn is stupid, I meant the idea of suicide is stupid. i also agree with Blue's last post completely.
It's okay to feel down sometimes [trust me, I'd know all about that], but talking about killing yourself doesn't earn you any pity from anyone. It gets you attention in a bad way. Attention that's not going to help you fix your problems. You have to be semi-positive [i know it can be hard], or else you're not going to get anywhere in terms of making your life better/making you happy again.
I'm sorry if I came across as telling iamnotjohn that he himself was stupid, that totally wasn't the intention at all.
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Ok this is the last thing I'll say about suicide. In my experience no one that threatens suicide will actually commit the crime. They say it so someone will stop them.
iamnotjohn consider yourself stopped. Now if you tell us what's going on a little less vaguely we can help. But no more suicide.
Here in gaymers we pretty much have a "No suicide" policy. People have talked about it before and we basically won't tolerate it. It's not for lack of compassion for most of others I guess but for me it's a non-answer to a real problem.
That's all well and good, but how does that help anyone? I mean, it's pretty obvious that anyone who isn't suicidal doesn't view it as a favorable option. No one is going to say, "Well if that's how you feel, then you should do it." But people generally don't choose how they feel, so telling someone they're "wrong" for feeling suicidal - no matter how you phrase it - is unconstructive and it makes about as much sense as telling someone they're wrong for feeling sad.
I understand the point of view that talking about suicide all the time is not healthy to the Gaymer environment, but there's a difference between dwelling on the subject and helping someone in need. While this doesn't apply to iamnotjohn, homosexuals are 200% more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals. If you're going to be part of a gay community, you should have at least some ability to handle the subject. By declaring the subject of suicide off-limits, you're telling the people who would talk to us when they have no one else to talk to that they actually have no one to talk to. And your doing it to the group of people most likely to need it.
I'm sorry to those who have strong opinions about or personal experiences with suicide, but pushing away or belittling those who ask for help is just plain wrong.
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It's one thing to ask for help but it's another to veil it like he did. I may seem too caustic now to proffer advice. I see what you mean Kraj. The policy is unwritten and unspoken. But as you can see we have a very negative view of the act of suicide. We're not against helping people we do that openly and willingly.
So what I should say to iamnotjohn is: Look. We're not going to talk about suicide. I'm sure if you're strong enough to go through with it you're strong enough to survive. If you're not strong enough to do it you're not going to do it! I want to help you. I want to be able to understand. But all you have to do is ask for help. Don't be afraid of that.
And don't be afraid of us. We're here as a tool at the moment. (pun not intended). So use us to help facilitate your expression. Let us help you. But no more suicide.
Also, yay for Mage: The Ascension. It has been fun to play. Any of you all play it?
Yes. You do mean the LARP, right? I play it every Friday night during the school year. Got a nice group of 30-40 people and people are *mostly* non-irritating. Heh. Speaking of that, I have to get in my summer downtime before tomorrow, and I don't know what to write, mmrm...
Quote from iamnotjohn »
It almost seems like everything I worked so hard to achieve last year burnt to the ground in the course of a month.
I really need some help but I have no idea who I'm supposed to talk to. I'm too timid to just talk to anyone. No-one around me is going to figure it out unless I actually do it.
What happened? Hard to offer advice about something without knowing what I'm giving advice about. In any case, Kraj gave some good general advice. Listen to him!
In completely other random news, and most *definitely* not why I came here.... (God I haven't been around for a long time. I blame the lack of a good rumor season....)
I've entered myself into a little (big?) contest/idol thing over at Londes.com. Partly because I think it will be interesting... and partly because I'm poor and I've love to actually win some cards to play with. (Then I don't have to argue with my boyfriend about buying Magic cards, heh.) In any case, I think you should go over to here and look at the articles... and then vote for me. I'm "Evan DeBack" to the confused. It's probably not the "bestest," but I worked on it!
They set it up pretty weirdly, I'm not surprised you thought it was like that, but we're actually all against each other. We're all on our own. Londes must have set it up that way so that there weren't 9 new articles every few days... easier to compress things.
I didn't realize there was a policy at all. Unwritten/unspoken or otherwise.
At any rate, I've already given my opinion on the topic in general awhile back. In case you missed it: I'm callous and completely unwilling to coddle (even for a moment) people too weak to find a more constructive way to solve their problems. I refuse to even listen if all someone is going to do is go on a self-pitying wallow-diatribe (not that such is the case here and now). I'm very hard on people who threaten suicide, so I'm reluctant to pipe up on any specific issues here now. Though that's not to say I'm not an able listener if real issues are going to be discussed.
Quote from Kraj »
No one is going to say, "Well if that's how you feel, then you should do it."
Well...this is it. Today is mikey's last full day here.
I've cried three times in the past 24 hours, and it's only going to go downhill from here.
First time was in the shower today, because it had finally hit me...he's leaving me, and I won't see him for two weeks. And after that, two months. And after that...god only knows. And I'm really really scared.
I went to pick him up so we could go play poker...I was fine, until i noticed everything was in boxes, or just nonexistant. I broke down, 'cause I couldn't stand seeing my "home" in boxes like that. I've considered Mikey's house my home for so long, and yet it feels like such a short time all at once.
Then I cried dropping him off, realizing that's probably the last time I'll see the house while they still live in it. Cried all the way home, and here I am, still crying.
christ....
* Leilani bites lip
So much for sleeping tonight. I just don't want him to leave.
Okay, I need to leave now.
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You know what? You guys really should have a policy on not discussing the topic. Because otherwise, sooner or later someone is going to turn to this group as a last hope, and you all are going to let that person down.
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You know what? You guys really should have a policy on not discussing the topic. Because otherwise, sooner or later someone is going to turn to this group as a last hope, and you all are going to let that person down.
I think we should just stop talking about it. iamnotjohn hasn't even responded to the first thing you wrote.
All in favor of making suicide a topic we aren't allowed to discuss say aye. I'll put a notice on the first page:
"No Suicide Policy. We're willing to talk through your problems but suicide is never an answer and not a topic open for disucssion. Suicide hotline: ### website. We're here to support YOU not death."
You know what? You guys really should have a policy on not discussing the topic. Because otherwise, sooner or later someone is going to turn to this group as a last hope, and you all are going to let that person down.
QFT. If someone was really seriously contemplating suicide and the general response here was "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard", not only would that be inconsiderate, it'd be downright cruel.
Speaking of Cruel, my cousin passed away on Monday, she was 35 and the mother of 2 girls aged 1 and 3 (who is turning 4 tommorow). I wen tover there yesterday to do what I could. the whole thing is quite Tragic.
And yes, Blue, you can add my real name to the first post.
Speaking of Cruel, my cousin passed away on Monday, she was 35 and the mother of 2 girls aged 1 and 3 (who is turning 4 tommorow). I wen tover there yesterday to do what I could. the whole thing is quite Tragic.
And yes, Blue, you can add my real name to the first post.
I said it in the other threads but again, sorry for your and their loss.
your real name's still Trenton is it not? I mean you could have changed it to T-Dawg or Applecrust Milliphitus or something. You canadians these days psh.
That's all well and good, but how does that help anyone? I mean, it's pretty obvious that anyone who isn't suicidal doesn't view it as a favorable option. No one is going to say, "Well if that's how you feel, then you should do it." But people generally don't choose how they feel, so telling someone they're "wrong" for feeling suicidal - no matter how you phrase it - is unconstructive and it makes about as much sense as telling someone they're wrong for feeling sad.
I understand the point of view that talking about suicide all the time is not healthy to the Gaymer environment, but there's a difference between dwelling on the subject and helping someone in need. While this doesn't apply to iamnotjohn, homosexuals are 200% more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals. If you're going to be part of a gay community, you should have at least some ability to handle the subject. By declaring the subject of suicide off-limits, you're telling the people who would talk to us when they have no one else to talk to that they actually have no one to talk to. And your doing it to the group of people most likely to need it.
I'm sorry to those who have strong opinions about or personal experiences with suicide, but pushing away or belittling those who ask for help is just plain wrong.
I don't think I've ever lacked respect for you, but I'm sure my respect level has just gone way up.
Way to be practical, Kraj.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
I have. A few times. And I've honestly meant it.
I doubt anyone is surprised.
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I'm callous and completely unwilling to coddle (even for a moment) people too weak to find a more constructive way to solve their problems.
Funny, I would have thought you'd find self-termination to be a pretty constructive course of action for most people.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
I refuse to even listen if all someone is going to do is go on a self-pitying wallow-diatribe (not that such is the case here and now). I'm very hard on people who threaten suicide, so I'm reluctant to pipe up on any specific issues here now. Though that's not to say I'm not an able listener if real issues are going to be discussed.
I imagine this shall come as a surprise to you, but suicidal thoughts are in themselves a real problem, and a pretty severe problem at that. You are making some pretty unnecessary assumptions, namely that suicide is always a cry for attention or emotional "coddling" (implied), and that your view of suicide is the most reasonable and only a fool would doubt it. You are also downplaying the danger of suicide and suicide threats, regardless of how self-pitying or how much a sign of "weakness" they may be.
You are underestimating the nature of the mind to centralize one's present condition, making it seem unlikely that the situations could ever improve. The extreme of this is called "despair" and is a very real problem.
Also, I find it strange that you should talk about constructive ways to solve problems, as your attitude isn't constructive at all. If someone is embroiled in despair, I am going to tell you that bringing down your disdain on them is not likely to be a very effective means of dispelling that emotion. Quelle surprise. Partially this is because the disdain of others tends to contribute to that particular emotional state, and partially because emotions cannot simply be "exorcised" by the right words (least of all negative ones) and the proper amount of social disapproval. They must be allowed to run their natural course and coped with. Don't assume that hope or at least simple apathy is in abundance for everyone. Kraj is correct. People simply are not masters of their feelings and thoughts.
I somewhat doubt your claim that you can be an "able listener" if you make such sharp distinction between "real problems" (read: problems worth your time) and other "imaginary" problems. An able listener realizes that if something poses any kind of negative or unnecessary disturbance, or is treated as a problem, however "imaginary" it may be, that, at least, is in itself a problem.
People have emotions, thoughts, and characteristics that are undesirable and unpleasant to behold. All people. This is a fact of life. If you are simply overwhelmed by your discomfort at being reminded of this, please exucse my skepticism that you are an "able listener" at all. Imperfectionis life. Part of living is learning to accept this.
Now, if you just don't care whether people you don't know very personally live or die, then you may as well simply state that. Otherwise, your self-justification seems a bit lacking to me. If you were to say, "I am too uncomfortable talking about suicide to be supportive to someone in crisis, because suicide is conceptually repulsive to me and people who consider it seem weak in my eyes," fine. You are entitled to feel that way. But attempting to cast some kind of "blame" on people with suicidal thoughts and feelings demonstrates a certain lack of awareness about the issue.
Also, I shall preempt you with this comment, should it become relevant. You may find yourself apathetic to my words, or of those who agree with me about this. If so, there is no need to clarify that. I am not saying this to get a reaction out of you, or to elicit "caring" from you. Your receptivity on this matter is not of especial consequence to me.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
"No Suicide Policy. We're willing to talk through your problems but suicide is never an answer and not a topic open for disucssion. Suicide hotline: ### website. We're here to support YOU not death."
So if were someone were to come here and post as a last resort, now they can keep quiet longer?
I guess I don't really understand that attitude. I'd expect that when there's a large collection of people who have been talked down to, discriminated against, and otherwise mistreated, you would have more compassion for peoeple who are depressed or have other major issues in their life. Sometimes being able to overcome a problem on your own isn't an option. As nice as being able to get through things on your own is, people need support sometimes.
Seriously, if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything, etc. When someone is thinking about suicide, regardless of the reason, they're depressed. The last thing they need to hear is hostility. Rather than making posts that come off as stand-offish, just post the suicide hotline number and leave it alone if you can't help any more than that.
Funny, I would have thought you'd find self-termination to be a pretty constructive course of action for most people.
Avoiding the issue is never a constructive course of action and suicide is the epitome of avoiding the issue. It's running away from your problems taken to the highest level, and I see nothing constructive in that.
I imagine this shall come as a surprise to you, but suicidal thoughts are in themselves a real problem, and a pretty severe problem at that.
Strangely enough, that's not much of a surprise to me.
You are making some pretty unnecessary assumptions, namely that suicide is always a cry for attention or emotional "coddling" (implied)
Never did I say that suicidal thoughts were always a cry for attention and/or coddling. Though I did say that announcing the fact that you're having those thoughts more often than not is a grab for attention, something only made worse by coddling the individual. Which isn't to say I feel that way about anyone who has suicidal thoughts, just those who would use those thoughts as a cry for attention. And there are many that do. Which I have no respect for since it takes away from those who truly do need help or suffer in silence.
and that your view of suicide is the most reasonable and only a fool would doubt it.
Really, I assumed that? That must've been what I typed between the lines. Good work on catching that!
You are also downplaying the danger of suicide and suicide threats, regardless of how self-pitying or how much a sign of "weakness" they may be.
The only thing I'm downplaying is my level of sympathy for those who would cry wolf for attention. I don't think suicide threats aren't serious, they very well can be. I just don't give one ounce of sympathy to those that aren't.
Also, I find it strange that you should talk about constructive ways to solve problems, as your attitude isn't constructive at all.
It isn't? I fail to see how lavishing attention-seekers with sympathy and coddling does anything but reinforce their own weak behavior. I may be blunt and I may be callous, but I refuse to contribute to someone's weakness.
If anyone wants constructive, the real constructive solution is to deal with the issues leading an individual to suicidal thoughts in the first place. Which I'm more than happy to discuss. I may not be the most comforting of confidants, but I'm certainly one of the ones who will tell you exactly what they think. most of my friends consider me to be the go-to guy with their problems. Why? Because I'm honest and focus on the problem, not making people feel better.
I somewhat doubt your claim that you can be an "able listener" if you make such sharp distinction between "real problems" (read: problems worth your time) and other "imaginary" problems.
No, I make a distinction between problems that are worth my time and ones that aren't. People stuck in wallow-mode aren't worth my time because they don't usually hear anything I have to say. If it's not sympathy or pity, it's in one ear and out the other. People who have no interest in helping themselves are absolutely a waste of my time. On the other hand, people who want to make their lives better and solve their problems are very much worth my time.
But attempting to cast some kind of "blame" on people with suicidal thoughts and feelings demonstrates a certain lack of awareness about the issue.
I don't think you have any idea just how aware I am about this issue.
And besides that, once more you make faulty assumptions. The only people I cast blame on are those who would use threats of suicide as cries for attention. Those who have suicidal thoughts as a result of confusion, depression and despair don't fall in that category for me. They need compassion not blame. Though do note that I don't compassion requires copious amounts of pity or sympathy.
Your receptivity on this matter is not of especial consequence to me.
Odd, considering the time and energy you put into holding my views in contempt.
Mike, looking back at what you wrote I see language that could be interpreted as seperating genuininely suicidal people from those who just like to talk about it repeatedly. However, that statement is very unclear and very easily interpreted as applicable to anyone who expresses suicidal feelings, especially since the rest of your posts imply that is the case. Furthermore, you personally may have dealt with people who repeatedly threaten suicide but that is not the case now and no one has been advocating on behalf of people who do so. Therefore, without a clear distinction being made it is only reasonable to assume your comments applied to the issue at hand. The fact that such an assumption turns out to be faulty is a reason to clarify your statements, not defend them.
Though your actual feelings differ from what your post lead us to believe, it was your post that was misleading, not mamelon's (or mine, since prior to your post above I had interpreted your position the same way mamelon did) failure to understand you correctly. So don't get snooty with her.
You also are self-contradicting in your post. First, you declare suicide the epitome of avoiding the issue (which, by the way, is a possibility but generally not the case) but then acknowledge that suicide is an issue itself. Those two beliefs are contradictory.
Finally, this discussion was sparked by iamnotjohn's statements. No one else's. And iamnotjohn has not made repeated posts whining about how he wants to kill himself. He made one, and he asked for help - not attention. Discussing how to interact with people who behaive differently than iamnotjohn has behaived is irrelvent and, frankly, ludicrous. So let's all do each other a favor and discuss the issue that's actually at hand instead of a hypothetical one.
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Avoiding the issue is never a constructive course of action and suicide is the epitome of avoiding the issue. It's running away from your problems taken to the highest level, and I see nothing constructive in that.
Oh, don't mistake me. I understand if you don't feel suicide is constructive. I don't think ending one's life is constructive, either.
Though, I will note that escaping problems is not the only reason people commit suicide.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
Strangely enough, that's not much of a surprise to me.
Strange indeed, as you essentially said that you don't feel that suicidal thoughts are generally serious.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
Never did I say that suicidal thoughts were always a cry for attention and/or coddling.
I know. As I said, it was implicit.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
Though I did say that announcing the fact that you're having those thoughts more often than not is a grab for attention, something only made worse by coddling the individual.
I apologize if I didn't make it clear that is one of the assumptions of yours I found unnecessary. Whether or not you meant all announcements of suicidal intent are "cries for attention," or merely most of them, it makes little difference. You said that you don't care for people who have thoughts of suicide and talk about those thoughts, and that you refuse to listen to them. This is exactly what you said, and you were quite explicit:
Quote from {mikeyG} »
In case you missed it: I'm callous and completely unwilling to coddle (even for a moment) people too weak to find a more constructive way to solve their problems.
In other words, people who feel they might wish to kill themselves. If you were attempting to make any kind of distinction between "honestly" suicidal people and "attention-grabbing" suicidal people, you didn't do a very good job of it.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
Which isn't to say I feel that way about anyone who has suicidal thoughts, just those who would use those thoughts as a cry for attention. And there are many that do. Which I have no respect for since it takes away from those who truly do need help or suffer in silence.
Could it possible be that people who "cry" for attention perhaps need attention? Sarcasm aside, I find it presumptuous and impractical to assume that desire for attention is a sign of not needing attention. Many of us have stories of people who seem to drink attention, looking for as much as they can because they never seem to get enough, and how unpleasant it can be to try and satisfy or avoid such a person. A stereotype develops that if such people exist, then all people who desire attention and perform actions to gain that attention must be like those people. If a baby cries, ignoring the baby is many times not a good idea. Sometimes it really is necessary to just let the baby cry, but that is why one needs to be able to judge circumstances so that one can gauge how one should act when the rote course of action is unclear.
In short, making blanket statements about people who are vocal about suicidal thoughts (which is exactly what you did, despite your disingenuous protest that you didn't make any claims about all suicidal people) demonstrates ignorance not only to the fact that that people sometimes really do want or need attention, and that this is normal, but to the sometimes not-so-childish implications of such a need. If someone is telling me he is thinking of suicide, I should think it'd be obvious that he is trying to get attention. That is generally what one does when one wants outside help with a problem, or when one wants someone to listen. I disagree with your decidely negative judgments about this phenomenon.
Basically, you are saying that you should never come to a baby's cry (which you did say, metaphorically, even though you later qualified it with an "almost never"), which is not contributive to situations in which answering the cry would be better. And, yes, I'd call that unconstructive. Just because you claim that you have some authority to judge whether or not "most" situations merit ignoring the cry rather than heeding it, that claim does not actually evidence itself.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
Really, I assumed that? That must've been what I typed between the lines. Good work on catching that!
Like I said, it was implicit. I'll explain -
You said, more or less, that to consider suicide is to be too weak to be constructive about one's problems, as if to say that a mature person of strong character would never, ever be in the situation in which he did not feel like life is worth living, and that ending it may not be such a bad idea. Or if he were, that he would not talk about it (once again, implying that talking about it would be the less constructive solution, that keeping it to himself would somehow be better).
This reflects your view of suicide - that suicide is not a good idea, that people should try to live their lives, all the problems intact, and deal with them. And, in the case that suicide seems appealing not because it would provide escape from problems, but because life in general actually holds less appeal than death, and suicide would just be quicker and easier, that people try to find something worth living for. I agree with that view.
There is a certain psychological state involved with this view. For instance, you feel pretty confident that the view is correct, that life is worth living despite it all, and that keeping on with life is the better option. You feel confident that suicide isn't necessary, so on and so on.
Now, it is very possible to be in another state of mind, one in which one's confidence in these ideas is not so strong, perhaps nearly nonexistent. One may no longer see why life really is so important. One may feel that death just makes more sense.
Your comments made pretty clear that if someone were to be in such a state of mind, one in which his/her view of suicide changed, then that person must be weak (or weak-minded, which is what I meant by "fool").
So I didn't actually have to read between lines. You were rather straightforward about it.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
The only thing I'm downplaying is my level of sympathy for those who would cry wolf for attention.
I meant "downplaying" as in ignoring the significance of something - i.e. the danger of suicide threats, no matter how insincere they seem, which you downplayed by assuming that most suicide threats aren't really serious or worth taking into consideration.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
I don't think suicide threats aren't serious, they very well can be. I just don't give one ounce of sympathy to those that aren't.
I mentioned above why I think that even insincere suicide threats are signs of a problem worth attention.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
It isn't? I fail to see how lavishing attention-seekers with sympathy and coddling does anything but reinforce their own weak behavior. I may be blunt and I may be callous, but I refuse to contribute to someone's weakness.
For one, I commented on this above.
Secondly, you need to define coddling, because your diction implies that you think "coddling = listening." You seem to be saying that you either ignore the suicidal person and tell him to stop whining, or you're coddling. That there are only two choices.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
If anyone wants constructive, the real constructive solution is to deal with the issues leading an individual to suicidal thoughts in the first place. Which I'm more than happy to discuss. I may not be the most comforting of confidants, but I'm certainly one of the ones who will tell you exactly what they think. most of my friends consider me to be the go-to guy with their problems. Why? Because I'm honest and focus on the problem, not making people feel better.
Another assumption, that "making people feel better" and "focusing on the problem" are mutually exclusive. That in order to do one, one must not be doing the other.
Also, are you saying that listening is helping the person avoid his or her problems? Even though sometimes that is all one needs is someone to listen?
I should say that in assisting someone with a problem, that would be something that generally lead to "feeling better." There are also times when feeling better leads to improvement of a problem.
What exactly would you say to a suicidal person? "Don't feel that way, I don't think you should"? Would that be far enough away from coddling to be constructive in your eyes?
Quote from {mikeyG} »
No, I make a distinction between problems that are worth my time and ones that aren't.
Um, that's exactly what I said.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
People stuck in wallow-mode aren't worth my time because they don't usually hear anything I have to say. If it's not sympathy or pity, it's in one ear and out the other. People who have no interest in helping themselves are absolutely a waste of my time. On the other hand, people who want to make their lives better and solve their problems are very much worth my time.
I just want it to be clear that it is the attitude that people who consider suicide generally are people who have no interest in helping themselves with which I have contention.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
I don't think you have any idea just how aware I am about this issue.
Which is acceptable, since I never claimed I actually knew how aware you were about this issue.
Now, I want to be pefectly clear here, and at the same time make it known that I am not trying to cast any negativity or judgment on you or your experiences:
Here's the thing. Making unfair and impractical generalizations about people who consider suicide generally demonstrates insensitivity towards said people. Even if you have known scads of suicidal people, even if you yourself have been suicidal or attempted suicide before, that does not give you a "free ticket" to make such comments without appearing ignorant of what actually is needed when dealing with suicidal tendency.
Heck, you could be a suicide counselor, and you can still have or at least show insensitivity (lack of appropriate awareness) towards the issue.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
And besides that, once more you make faulty assumptions. The only people I cast blame on are those who would use threats of suicide as cries for attention. Those who have suicidal thoughts as a result of confusion, depression and despair don't fall in that category for me. They need compassion not blame. Though do note that I don't compassion requires copious amounts of pity or sympathy.
For one, you didn't say that. I have already pointed out that you made it fairly clear what you thought of suicidal people in general, making no useful or sufficent distinction between sincere and insincere people in terms of your behavior. It can hardly be my faulty assumption if you did not see fit to communicate your intent.
Second, I don't get the last sentence. How do you define sympathy? Because, roughly, it usually means "good will" or "agreeableness, caring attitude," which is kind of implied with compassion.
Though I might presume that you meant sugar-coating and actions meant only to pacify and "cheer up" the person, even if that is not what one may need.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
Odd, considering the time and energy you put into holding my views in contempt.
I didn't. I put my time and energy into stating my thoughts on the matter, not on heaping contempt upon you. As I said, this wasn't some grand tirade devised for the purpose of inflaming or shaming you.
And my last comment amounts to saying that should you see fit to ignore me or ask me why you should care about any of my points, that would be alright by me. There's no reason that you must heed me, or even read my words. I'm not your mother. It is quite possible for me to express my ideas on this topic without it being some kind of "big deal," or an attempt to chastise you.
In light of that, I will note that if you felt that I was being unnecessarily negative or discourteous, I wish to apologize. I did use a good bit of sarcasm, and intentionally, but I did not mean to be inflamatory. I wanted to disagree with the attitude that was apparent to me in your posts, and provide points of my own, not to "put you down" or any such thing.
Quote from Kraj »
Finally, this discussion was sparked by iamnotjohn's statements. No one else's. And iamnotjohn has not made repeated posts whining about how he wants to kill himself. He made one, and he asked for help - not attention. Discussing how to interact with people who behaive differently than iamnotjohn has behaived is irrelvent and, frankly, ludicrous. So let's all do each other a favor and discuss the issue that's actually at hand instead of a hypothetical one.
This is pretty much what I am talking about. I did not actually read each post in this thread, and if you, {mikeyG} stated earlier that you don't lack compassion for people who are suicidally depressed instead of "merely" wanting attention, then I either did not see it, or I misread it. If that is my fault, then I acknowledge that and cede that I was mistaken about that.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Ok just so we're all clear, no one is actually flaming or hurting anyone else? Good. I like that we're having this discussion and not moving it to the debate forum because this is definitely an issue that is dealt with all the time (As Greg said 200% more than with heteros) with homosexuals. And I think we can keep it here as long as everyone is heard correctly.
I made my comments based on the way iamnotjohn presented his case. To me he never said to us "I want to kill myself I need your help" he said, "I told them but no one believes me. I need help but I don't know who to ask". That's one thing that set me off down my path. To me he wasn't asking for our help nor telling us that he was going to kill himself. And because it was subvertive I believed it to be more manipulative than a cry for help. I don't like that. Maybe he doesn't have the strength to ask the question or say it but he told his friends so why not us? That's why I want him to get back online and explain more than just one thing and then log off.
And yes I understand that I come off very cruel and coldhearted. I won't be an advocate of the policy of no talking about suicide but I don't feel that talking about suicide is actually constructive either. Talking about and through problems is. I may be insensitive to the suicide part because I regard it with such disdain but that doesn't make me incapable of solving a problem. Suicide to me is NOT the cause of a problem so I don't factor that in at any point when trying to help. I've been friends with suicidal people but after meeting me and hanging out with me they lose the urge to kill themselves. To me that suggests that a lot of feelings of suicide have to do with environment and perception. They're a lot happier now and that's what I want to try to do with iamnotjohn.
I think, though, whatever we could do his friends could do better. You can say that his posting that was a cry for attention but it's so passive.
To be frank, and I'm guilty of this too, it's no more constructive to criticize our reactions toward suicide than it is to have said such opinions to begin with. Mamelon you make some good points but if we're to really help iamnotjohn we should focus on him. The problem is that he hasn't said anything since that post.
iamnotjohn: You need to learn to ask for help. Don't be afraid to ask. Go to your friends. They'll know by your tone that you're not being sarcastic. Tell them, "Look. I really need help. I don't know what to do. And it scares me that suicide is the most appealing option I have." Make sure they know you're not joking and get their help even if you don't tell us what all is happening or has happened.
Anyway...Mikey and I went to see the sunrise this morning. It was really pretty. Then we went rock climbing [on the rocks on the shore]...came back here, and slept until like..noon. Then one thing kind of led to another....and a while later my brother and his friend noticed what we were doing and came downstairs on purpose.
I'm going to ****ing murder them.
two more days....
I know it seems that I don't care,
but something in me does I swear.
[gaymers]
founder of the MTGS Forum Pirates
'tar/banner by R&Doom.
iamnotjohn, obviously I do not know your situation but based on what you've said, here is what I think. First, it looks like you've said your suicidal thoughts are a reaction to the events of the past year but that they came on rather suddenly and recently. I also see you said you haven't been sleeping. I'm going to take a guess and say that you haven't had much of an appetite lately either. To me this sounds more like a case of depression rather than suidical feelings.
Generally, if you're suicidal it means you are enduring more pain than you know how to cope with. On the other hand, if you're depressed you're not really feeling overwhelmed with pain, but you never really feel good; you feel tired, you don't feel like doing anything at all. Either way is not a way you want to live, but it's important to understand how you feel before you can do anything about it.
That said, no matter what your answer is, go here and call these people:
http://suicidehotlines.com/southdakota.html
You said you want help but don't know how to get it or who to talk to. These are people who will listen, who will understand exactly what you are going through, who won't judge you, and can tell you exactly what you need to do in order to get the help you need. Call them. Don't think about it, just do it.
And, of course, you can talk to us. We'll listen and we will do our best to help. I also strongly encourage you to talk to someone in your life. Obviously, your coworkers aren't the best place to start. But I'd be willing to bet there's a minumum of one person you know who will be there for you if you have an honest and open discussion about how you feel and why and how they might be able to help you. But, seriously, call the hotline. Even if it's just for a little advice, or to be able to vent to someone who will listen. It doesn't have to be a big deal. Just call them. Right now. Not later, not when you finish whatever you're doing. Right now.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Great job, gang! At least that'll dispell the stereotype of gays being sensitive...
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Here in gaymers we pretty much have a "No suicide" policy. People have talked about it before and we basically won't tolerate it. It's not for lack of compassion for most of others I guess but for me it's a non-answer to a real problem. I don't mean to seem callous really. I promise I don't. I want to have more compassion but for some reason I just don't.
That's why I want to know what his problem because just saying "I'm thinking about suicide" is not an answer to the question, "What's the problem"
That was supposed to be the gist in the original message. Without knowing more the only thing I can offer up is my opinion of suicide in general. I took from the tone that iamnotjohn was being subtle and when it comes to problems I don't believe in hiding behind a facade.
iamnotjohn: We all have a lot of experience helping people. I know I do. I'm logical and cold but I can help. Sometimes it's okay to feel down and out. It's not the end of the world just because you're not happy. People get like that from time to time.
Share with us do.
It's okay to feel down sometimes [trust me, I'd know all about that], but talking about killing yourself doesn't earn you any pity from anyone. It gets you attention in a bad way. Attention that's not going to help you fix your problems. You have to be semi-positive [i know it can be hard], or else you're not going to get anywhere in terms of making your life better/making you happy again.
I'm sorry if I came across as telling iamnotjohn that he himself was stupid, that totally wasn't the intention at all.
I know it seems that I don't care,
but something in me does I swear.
[gaymers]
founder of the MTGS Forum Pirates
'tar/banner by R&Doom.
iamnotjohn consider yourself stopped. Now if you tell us what's going on a little less vaguely we can help. But no more suicide.
That's all well and good, but how does that help anyone? I mean, it's pretty obvious that anyone who isn't suicidal doesn't view it as a favorable option. No one is going to say, "Well if that's how you feel, then you should do it." But people generally don't choose how they feel, so telling someone they're "wrong" for feeling suicidal - no matter how you phrase it - is unconstructive and it makes about as much sense as telling someone they're wrong for feeling sad.
I understand the point of view that talking about suicide all the time is not healthy to the Gaymer environment, but there's a difference between dwelling on the subject and helping someone in need. While this doesn't apply to iamnotjohn, homosexuals are 200% more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals. If you're going to be part of a gay community, you should have at least some ability to handle the subject. By declaring the subject of suicide off-limits, you're telling the people who would talk to us when they have no one else to talk to that they actually have no one to talk to. And your doing it to the group of people most likely to need it.
I'm sorry to those who have strong opinions about or personal experiences with suicide, but pushing away or belittling those who ask for help is just plain wrong.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
So what I should say to iamnotjohn is: Look. We're not going to talk about suicide. I'm sure if you're strong enough to go through with it you're strong enough to survive. If you're not strong enough to do it you're not going to do it! I want to help you. I want to be able to understand. But all you have to do is ask for help. Don't be afraid of that.
And don't be afraid of us. We're here as a tool at the moment. (pun not intended). So use us to help facilitate your expression. Let us help you. But no more suicide.
Yes. You do mean the LARP, right? I play it every Friday night during the school year. Got a nice group of 30-40 people and people are *mostly* non-irritating. Heh. Speaking of that, I have to get in my summer downtime before tomorrow, and I don't know what to write, mmrm...
What happened? Hard to offer advice about something without knowing what I'm giving advice about. In any case, Kraj gave some good general advice. Listen to him!
In completely other random news, and most *definitely* not why I came here.... (God I haven't been around for a long time. I blame the lack of a good rumor season....)
I've entered myself into a little (big?) contest/idol thing over at Londes.com. Partly because I think it will be interesting... and partly because I'm poor and I've love to actually win some cards to play with. (Then I don't have to argue with my boyfriend about buying Magic cards, heh.) In any case, I think you should go over to here and look at the articles... and then vote for me. I'm "Evan DeBack" to the confused. It's probably not the "bestest," but I worked on it!
Heya again Gaymers.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
They set it up pretty weirdly, I'm not surprised you thought it was like that, but we're actually all against each other. We're all on our own. Londes must have set it up that way so that there weren't 9 new articles every few days... easier to compress things.
I didn't realize there was a policy at all. Unwritten/unspoken or otherwise.
At any rate, I've already given my opinion on the topic in general awhile back. In case you missed it: I'm callous and completely unwilling to coddle (even for a moment) people too weak to find a more constructive way to solve their problems. I refuse to even listen if all someone is going to do is go on a self-pitying wallow-diatribe (not that such is the case here and now). I'm very hard on people who threaten suicide, so I'm reluctant to pipe up on any specific issues here now. Though that's not to say I'm not an able listener if real issues are going to be discussed.
I have. A few times. And I've honestly meant it.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I've cried three times in the past 24 hours, and it's only going to go downhill from here.
First time was in the shower today, because it had finally hit me...he's leaving me, and I won't see him for two weeks. And after that, two months. And after that...god only knows. And I'm really really scared.
I went to pick him up so we could go play poker...I was fine, until i noticed everything was in boxes, or just nonexistant. I broke down, 'cause I couldn't stand seeing my "home" in boxes like that. I've considered Mikey's house my home for so long, and yet it feels like such a short time all at once.
Then I cried dropping him off, realizing that's probably the last time I'll see the house while they still live in it. Cried all the way home, and here I am, still crying.
christ....
* Leilani bites lip
So much for sleeping tonight. I just don't want him to leave.
Okay, I need to leave now.
I know it seems that I don't care,
but something in me does I swear.
[gaymers]
founder of the MTGS Forum Pirates
'tar/banner by R&Doom.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I think we should just stop talking about it. iamnotjohn hasn't even responded to the first thing you wrote.
All in favor of making suicide a topic we aren't allowed to discuss say aye. I'll put a notice on the first page:
"No Suicide Policy. We're willing to talk through your problems but suicide is never an answer and not a topic open for disucssion. Suicide hotline: ### website. We're here to support YOU not death."
QFT. If someone was really seriously contemplating suicide and the general response here was "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard", not only would that be inconsiderate, it'd be downright cruel.
Speaking of Cruel, my cousin passed away on Monday, she was 35 and the mother of 2 girls aged 1 and 3 (who is turning 4 tommorow). I wen tover there yesterday to do what I could. the whole thing is quite Tragic.
And yes, Blue, you can add my real name to the first post.
[Left Play Designs][Coffeehouse][DeviantArt]
Winner MTGS Weekly Sig/Banner Contest
Weeks: 37/85/87/94/135/159/160/226
I said it in the other threads but again, sorry for your and their loss.
your real name's still Trenton is it not? I mean you could have changed it to T-Dawg or Applecrust Milliphitus or something. You canadians these days psh.
I don't think I've ever lacked respect for you, but I'm sure my respect level has just gone way up.
Way to be practical, Kraj.
I doubt anyone is surprised.
Funny, I would have thought you'd find self-termination to be a pretty constructive course of action for most people.
I imagine this shall come as a surprise to you, but suicidal thoughts are in themselves a real problem, and a pretty severe problem at that. You are making some pretty unnecessary assumptions, namely that suicide is always a cry for attention or emotional "coddling" (implied), and that your view of suicide is the most reasonable and only a fool would doubt it. You are also downplaying the danger of suicide and suicide threats, regardless of how self-pitying or how much a sign of "weakness" they may be.
You are underestimating the nature of the mind to centralize one's present condition, making it seem unlikely that the situations could ever improve. The extreme of this is called "despair" and is a very real problem.
Also, I find it strange that you should talk about constructive ways to solve problems, as your attitude isn't constructive at all. If someone is embroiled in despair, I am going to tell you that bringing down your disdain on them is not likely to be a very effective means of dispelling that emotion. Quelle surprise. Partially this is because the disdain of others tends to contribute to that particular emotional state, and partially because emotions cannot simply be "exorcised" by the right words (least of all negative ones) and the proper amount of social disapproval. They must be allowed to run their natural course and coped with. Don't assume that hope or at least simple apathy is in abundance for everyone. Kraj is correct. People simply are not masters of their feelings and thoughts.
I somewhat doubt your claim that you can be an "able listener" if you make such sharp distinction between "real problems" (read: problems worth your time) and other "imaginary" problems. An able listener realizes that if something poses any kind of negative or unnecessary disturbance, or is treated as a problem, however "imaginary" it may be, that, at least, is in itself a problem.
People have emotions, thoughts, and characteristics that are undesirable and unpleasant to behold. All people. This is a fact of life. If you are simply overwhelmed by your discomfort at being reminded of this, please exucse my skepticism that you are an "able listener" at all.
Imperfection is life. Part of living is learning to accept this.
Now, if you just don't care whether people you don't know very personally live or die, then you may as well simply state that. Otherwise, your self-justification seems a bit lacking to me. If you were to say, "I am too uncomfortable talking about suicide to be supportive to someone in crisis, because suicide is conceptually repulsive to me and people who consider it seem weak in my eyes," fine. You are entitled to feel that way. But attempting to cast some kind of "blame" on people with suicidal thoughts and feelings demonstrates a certain lack of awareness about the issue.
Also, I shall preempt you with this comment, should it become relevant. You may find yourself apathetic to my words, or of those who agree with me about this. If so, there is no need to clarify that. I am not saying this to get a reaction out of you, or to elicit "caring" from you. Your receptivity on this matter is not of especial consequence to me.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
So if were someone were to come here and post as a last resort, now they can keep quiet longer?
I guess I don't really understand that attitude. I'd expect that when there's a large collection of people who have been talked down to, discriminated against, and otherwise mistreated, you would have more compassion for peoeple who are depressed or have other major issues in their life. Sometimes being able to overcome a problem on your own isn't an option. As nice as being able to get through things on your own is, people need support sometimes.
Seriously, if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything, etc. When someone is thinking about suicide, regardless of the reason, they're depressed. The last thing they need to hear is hostility. Rather than making posts that come off as stand-offish, just post the suicide hotline number and leave it alone if you can't help any more than that.
I'm glad my reputation precedes me.
Avoiding the issue is never a constructive course of action and suicide is the epitome of avoiding the issue. It's running away from your problems taken to the highest level, and I see nothing constructive in that.
Strangely enough, that's not much of a surprise to me.
Never did I say that suicidal thoughts were always a cry for attention and/or coddling. Though I did say that announcing the fact that you're having those thoughts more often than not is a grab for attention, something only made worse by coddling the individual. Which isn't to say I feel that way about anyone who has suicidal thoughts, just those who would use those thoughts as a cry for attention. And there are many that do. Which I have no respect for since it takes away from those who truly do need help or suffer in silence.
Really, I assumed that? That must've been what I typed between the lines. Good work on catching that!
The only thing I'm downplaying is my level of sympathy for those who would cry wolf for attention. I don't think suicide threats aren't serious, they very well can be. I just don't give one ounce of sympathy to those that aren't.
It isn't? I fail to see how lavishing attention-seekers with sympathy and coddling does anything but reinforce their own weak behavior. I may be blunt and I may be callous, but I refuse to contribute to someone's weakness.
If anyone wants constructive, the real constructive solution is to deal with the issues leading an individual to suicidal thoughts in the first place. Which I'm more than happy to discuss. I may not be the most comforting of confidants, but I'm certainly one of the ones who will tell you exactly what they think. most of my friends consider me to be the go-to guy with their problems. Why? Because I'm honest and focus on the problem, not making people feel better.
No, I make a distinction between problems that are worth my time and ones that aren't. People stuck in wallow-mode aren't worth my time because they don't usually hear anything I have to say. If it's not sympathy or pity, it's in one ear and out the other. People who have no interest in helping themselves are absolutely a waste of my time. On the other hand, people who want to make their lives better and solve their problems are very much worth my time.
I don't think you have any idea just how aware I am about this issue.
And besides that, once more you make faulty assumptions. The only people I cast blame on are those who would use threats of suicide as cries for attention. Those who have suicidal thoughts as a result of confusion, depression and despair don't fall in that category for me. They need compassion not blame. Though do note that I don't compassion requires copious amounts of pity or sympathy.
Odd, considering the time and energy you put into holding my views in contempt.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Though your actual feelings differ from what your post lead us to believe, it was your post that was misleading, not mamelon's (or mine, since prior to your post above I had interpreted your position the same way mamelon did) failure to understand you correctly. So don't get snooty with her.
You also are self-contradicting in your post. First, you declare suicide the epitome of avoiding the issue (which, by the way, is a possibility but generally not the case) but then acknowledge that suicide is an issue itself. Those two beliefs are contradictory.
Finally, this discussion was sparked by iamnotjohn's statements. No one else's. And iamnotjohn has not made repeated posts whining about how he wants to kill himself. He made one, and he asked for help - not attention. Discussing how to interact with people who behaive differently than iamnotjohn has behaived is irrelvent and, frankly, ludicrous. So let's all do each other a favor and discuss the issue that's actually at hand instead of a hypothetical one.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Oh, don't mistake me. I understand if you don't feel suicide is constructive. I don't think ending one's life is constructive, either.
Though, I will note that escaping problems is not the only reason people commit suicide.
Strange indeed, as you essentially said that you don't feel that suicidal thoughts are generally serious.
I know. As I said, it was implicit.
I apologize if I didn't make it clear that is one of the assumptions of yours I found unnecessary. Whether or not you meant all announcements of suicidal intent are "cries for attention," or merely most of them, it makes little difference. You said that you don't care for people who have thoughts of suicide and talk about those thoughts, and that you refuse to listen to them. This is exactly what you said, and you were quite explicit:
In other words, people who feel they might wish to kill themselves. If you were attempting to make any kind of distinction between "honestly" suicidal people and "attention-grabbing" suicidal people, you didn't do a very good job of it.
Could it possible be that people who "cry" for attention perhaps need attention? Sarcasm aside, I find it presumptuous and impractical to assume that desire for attention is a sign of not needing attention. Many of us have stories of people who seem to drink attention, looking for as much as they can because they never seem to get enough, and how unpleasant it can be to try and satisfy or avoid such a person. A stereotype develops that if such people exist, then all people who desire attention and perform actions to gain that attention must be like those people. If a baby cries, ignoring the baby is many times not a good idea. Sometimes it really is necessary to just let the baby cry, but that is why one needs to be able to judge circumstances so that one can gauge how one should act when the rote course of action is unclear.
In short, making blanket statements about people who are vocal about suicidal thoughts (which is exactly what you did, despite your disingenuous protest that you didn't make any claims about all suicidal people) demonstrates ignorance not only to the fact that that people sometimes really do want or need attention, and that this is normal, but to the sometimes not-so-childish implications of such a need. If someone is telling me he is thinking of suicide, I should think it'd be obvious that he is trying to get attention. That is generally what one does when one wants outside help with a problem, or when one wants someone to listen. I disagree with your decidely negative judgments about this phenomenon.
Basically, you are saying that you should never come to a baby's cry (which you did say, metaphorically, even though you later qualified it with an "almost never"), which is not contributive to situations in which answering the cry would be better. And, yes, I'd call that unconstructive. Just because you claim that you have some authority to judge whether or not "most" situations merit ignoring the cry rather than heeding it, that claim does not actually evidence itself.
Like I said, it was implicit. I'll explain -
You said, more or less, that to consider suicide is to be too weak to be constructive about one's problems, as if to say that a mature person of strong character would never, ever be in the situation in which he did not feel like life is worth living, and that ending it may not be such a bad idea. Or if he were, that he would not talk about it (once again, implying that talking about it would be the less constructive solution, that keeping it to himself would somehow be better).
This reflects your view of suicide - that suicide is not a good idea, that people should try to live their lives, all the problems intact, and deal with them. And, in the case that suicide seems appealing not because it would provide escape from problems, but because life in general actually holds less appeal than death, and suicide would just be quicker and easier, that people try to find something worth living for. I agree with that view.
There is a certain psychological state involved with this view. For instance, you feel pretty confident that the view is correct, that life is worth living despite it all, and that keeping on with life is the better option. You feel confident that suicide isn't necessary, so on and so on.
Now, it is very possible to be in another state of mind, one in which one's confidence in these ideas is not so strong, perhaps nearly nonexistent. One may no longer see why life really is so important. One may feel that death just makes more sense.
Your comments made pretty clear that if someone were to be in such a state of mind, one in which his/her view of suicide changed, then that person must be weak (or weak-minded, which is what I meant by "fool").
So I didn't actually have to read between lines. You were rather straightforward about it.
I meant "downplaying" as in ignoring the significance of something - i.e. the danger of suicide threats, no matter how insincere they seem, which you downplayed by assuming that most suicide threats aren't really serious or worth taking into consideration.
I mentioned above why I think that even insincere suicide threats are signs of a problem worth attention.
For one, I commented on this above.
Secondly, you need to define coddling, because your diction implies that you think "coddling = listening." You seem to be saying that you either ignore the suicidal person and tell him to stop whining, or you're coddling. That there are only two choices.
Another assumption, that "making people feel better" and "focusing on the problem" are mutually exclusive. That in order to do one, one must not be doing the other.
Also, are you saying that listening is helping the person avoid his or her problems? Even though sometimes that is all one needs is someone to listen?
I should say that in assisting someone with a problem, that would be something that generally lead to "feeling better." There are also times when feeling better leads to improvement of a problem.
What exactly would you say to a suicidal person? "Don't feel that way, I don't think you should"? Would that be far enough away from coddling to be constructive in your eyes?
Um, that's exactly what I said.
I just want it to be clear that it is the attitude that people who consider suicide generally are people who have no interest in helping themselves with which I have contention.
Which is acceptable, since I never claimed I actually knew how aware you were about this issue.
Now, I want to be pefectly clear here, and at the same time make it known that I am not trying to cast any negativity or judgment on you or your experiences:
Here's the thing. Making unfair and impractical generalizations about people who consider suicide generally demonstrates insensitivity towards said people. Even if you have known scads of suicidal people, even if you yourself have been suicidal or attempted suicide before, that does not give you a "free ticket" to make such comments without appearing ignorant of what actually is needed when dealing with suicidal tendency.
Heck, you could be a suicide counselor, and you can still have or at least show insensitivity (lack of appropriate awareness) towards the issue.
For one, you didn't say that. I have already pointed out that you made it fairly clear what you thought of suicidal people in general, making no useful or sufficent distinction between sincere and insincere people in terms of your behavior. It can hardly be my faulty assumption if you did not see fit to communicate your intent.
Second, I don't get the last sentence. How do you define sympathy? Because, roughly, it usually means "good will" or "agreeableness, caring attitude," which is kind of implied with compassion.
Though I might presume that you meant sugar-coating and actions meant only to pacify and "cheer up" the person, even if that is not what one may need.
I didn't. I put my time and energy into stating my thoughts on the matter, not on heaping contempt upon you. As I said, this wasn't some grand tirade devised for the purpose of inflaming or shaming you.
And my last comment amounts to saying that should you see fit to ignore me or ask me why you should care about any of my points, that would be alright by me. There's no reason that you must heed me, or even read my words. I'm not your mother. It is quite possible for me to express my ideas on this topic without it being some kind of "big deal," or an attempt to chastise you.
In light of that, I will note that if you felt that I was being unnecessarily negative or discourteous, I wish to apologize. I did use a good bit of sarcasm, and intentionally, but I did not mean to be inflamatory. I wanted to disagree with the attitude that was apparent to me in your posts, and provide points of my own, not to "put you down" or any such thing.
This is pretty much what I am talking about. I did not actually read each post in this thread, and if you, {mikeyG} stated earlier that you don't lack compassion for people who are suicidally depressed instead of "merely" wanting attention, then I either did not see it, or I misread it. If that is my fault, then I acknowledge that and cede that I was mistaken about that.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
I made my comments based on the way iamnotjohn presented his case. To me he never said to us "I want to kill myself I need your help" he said, "I told them but no one believes me. I need help but I don't know who to ask". That's one thing that set me off down my path. To me he wasn't asking for our help nor telling us that he was going to kill himself. And because it was subvertive I believed it to be more manipulative than a cry for help. I don't like that. Maybe he doesn't have the strength to ask the question or say it but he told his friends so why not us? That's why I want him to get back online and explain more than just one thing and then log off.
And yes I understand that I come off very cruel and coldhearted. I won't be an advocate of the policy of no talking about suicide but I don't feel that talking about suicide is actually constructive either. Talking about and through problems is. I may be insensitive to the suicide part because I regard it with such disdain but that doesn't make me incapable of solving a problem. Suicide to me is NOT the cause of a problem so I don't factor that in at any point when trying to help. I've been friends with suicidal people but after meeting me and hanging out with me they lose the urge to kill themselves. To me that suggests that a lot of feelings of suicide have to do with environment and perception. They're a lot happier now and that's what I want to try to do with iamnotjohn.
I think, though, whatever we could do his friends could do better. You can say that his posting that was a cry for attention but it's so passive.
To be frank, and I'm guilty of this too, it's no more constructive to criticize our reactions toward suicide than it is to have said such opinions to begin with. Mamelon you make some good points but if we're to really help iamnotjohn we should focus on him. The problem is that he hasn't said anything since that post.
iamnotjohn: You need to learn to ask for help. Don't be afraid to ask. Go to your friends. They'll know by your tone that you're not being sarcastic. Tell them, "Look. I really need help. I don't know what to do. And it scares me that suicide is the most appealing option I have." Make sure they know you're not joking and get their help even if you don't tell us what all is happening or has happened.
Break down the list for me.
Tignle is a character that gets in your way and overcharges for maps in The Legend of Zelda games.
Ohhhh that Tingle