Graphics is the last factor for me. I don't think how a game looks is as important as how it plays.
For me, it goes; system and/or controls, fun factor, story, and presentation (sound, graphics).
Sound is important for me, as I'm a total video game music junkie.
So, anyone mind if I bounce some ideas off of all of you?
In my game Rise, we've been noticing some issues with the concept of Defense.
Defense in Rise is similar to AC in 3.0/3.5 D&D, in that for the purpose of attacks, you need to make a dice roll + your attack score and surpass the target's defense to make a successful hit.
Your Defense Score is determined by adding your Stamina score to a base Defense Value, which is currently set at five. The ability score progression is a quick scaling point based, and it's not unnatural for mid level characters to have ATK and STA scores of between 20-40ish. Because of this, the DEF score seems to be somewhat inconsequential for all but the most specific roles- basically, if anything but a primary caster makes an attack, they almost always hit an enemy of an equivalent strength, unless that enemy ignores his other statistics and pours it all into STA (which is usually a bad idea, as you can't do anything but hold off attacks for a while and then die).
So, the system doesn't really allow for armor, as the characters are all ghosts, and thus unable to strap themselves down with a lot of armor- also, it has a modern setting, and random platemail would just seem silly.
So, the mods and I for the game were discussing a few options-
Option 1: Scrap the DEF system, incorporate a system for Evasion and Damage Reduction.
Pros: Much more functional.
Cons: Basically means rewriting all of the combat rules mid-game, and reteaching all of our players the rules, which we would really like to avoid.
Option 2: Incorporate a system of scaling base DEF, based on Defense Modes that are contigent on another unrelated stat.
Pros: Much easier to integrate into the system, works well with other mechanics in the game.
Cons: May not do much more than add more numbers to the problem in high-level play.
Any ideas you guys can give me? I would really appreciate it.
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
Option 1: Scrap the DEF system, incorporate a system for Evasion and Damage Reduction.
Pros: Much more functional.
Cons: Basically means rewriting all of the combat rules mid-game, and reteaching all of our players the rules, which we would really like to avoid.
Option 2: Incorporate a system of scaling base DEF, based on Defense Modes that are contigent on another unrelated stat.
Pros: Much easier to integrate into the system, works well with other mechanics in the game.
Cons: May not do much more than add more numbers to the problem in high-level play.
Any ideas you guys can give me? I would really appreciate it.
I like option one better. The thought of making stat calculation much more difficult makes my brain hurt. I already have to have 4 windows open to do it without making mistakes.
For the graphics discussion, It does actually annoy me when games have bad graphics. Not enough for me to drop a good game, but when the graphics manage to mess up the games play quality, (as in, you can't control your character because you can't see anything) then the game is not worth playing.
Oblivion looks fine on the Xbox 360 to me. The environment is incredible. I've definately heard it runs very slowly to have graphics comparable to the console version on a PC though.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Oh, don't get me wrong. For me, the priorities go- system, story, sound. Graphics don't factor in at all. I mean, I cut my teeth on NES and SNES RPGs... and I know how to use my imagination, so I'm not the sort to be scared off from a game just because it does appeal to all my aesthetic sensibilities.
Yeah, I'm the same way. At the same time, as an artist, I can really dig some excelent artwork. It wont make me play a game for a long time, but simple beauty can be appreciated for a bit. I picked up Magna Carta, and it has some great visuals. Unfortunatly, the game sucked. It's been setting on my shelf for a very long time. I did truly appreciate the visuals, but I wont play it.
Okami is on the other side of the spectrum. It's a brilliant story with imaginative and seamless gameplay. The music is great, as well as the visuals, which are breathtaking and artistic. The fact that they made the game resemble a classic watercolor painting, just effects some part of my psyche. The visuals and the music help the game be entrancing. The atmosphere it creates truly pulls me in.
I guess what I'm trying to say is; Graphics don't matter much to me, but when a wonderfull game happens to have artfull graphics, it simply drives me nuts.
One thing to consider about "beautifull" people in games. From my experience, a perfectly beautifull person is a lot easier to draw than an "ugly" person. It's the imperfections that make a human face complex and this means that the more "perfect" a face, the easier it is to create in a pixalated form.
I like option one better. The thought of making stat calculation much more difficult makes my brain hurt. I already have to have 4 windows open to do it without making mistakes.
That's my point, though. I'd basically have to hack the system apart and rebuild it to incorporate that, which is going to be hell on the people who are already struggling with the rules as it is.
Option 1 would require just as much calculation, and make it necessary for everyone to change their abilities, statistics, and passives, and I would have to totally rewrite the rules on combat (along with a good part of the ability generation guidelines) to suit it. Option 2 just sort of plugs into the game as it is, with only 1 simple formula that won't even effect most of the cast as it is now.
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
By 'ugly', I don't mean that the NPCs look like unattractive people; I would be more than fine with that. They are ugly in the sense that they look wrong. A general rule of cartoons is that the more detailed a character is, the more 'close-to-life' they have to look in order not to look jarring. (That is, the more iconic a character is, the less like reality they have to look.) Charlie Brown, for instance, is proportioned nothing like a real human. His eyes are just dots, his head is ginormous, he doesn't have the right number of fingers, his shoes are just ovals, and so on. Yet Charlie Brown doesn't look jarring, because the lack of detail makes him 'iconic'. If charlie brown was drawn in a highly detailed style but retained the same proportions and so on, he would look horrifying. The characters in Oblivion are unappealing because thier models contain a great deal of detail, but they look enough unlike real people that it's jarring.
By 'ugly', I don't mean that the NPCs look like unattractive people; I would be more than fine with that. They are ugly in the sense that they look wrong. A general rule of cartoons is that the more detailed a character is, the more 'close-to-life' they have to look in order not to look jarring. (That is, the more iconic a character is, the less like reality they have to look.) Charlie Brown, for instance, is proportioned nothing like a real human. His eyes are just dots, his head is ginormous, he doesn't have the right number of fingers, his shoes are just ovals, and so on. Yet Charlie Brown doesn't look jarring, because the lack of detail makes him 'iconic'. If charlie brown was drawn in a highly detailed style but retained the same proportions and so on, he would look horrifying. The characters in Oblivion are unappealing because thier models contain a great deal of detail, but they look enough unlike real people that it's jarring.
Are you sure its Oblivion you're thinking of? Morrowind is like that, but Oblivion is very much improved. Granted a few of the "randomly" generated faces are horribly disfigured but probably a 1:20 bad face to good ratio.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Quite certain. Witness the large number of fan-made face-modification packs available for download. That said, I've been looking at some shots of the console version, and the people there do look considerably better. However, having watched two roommates play through on the PC, I can say that the game's worst feature by far is the faces. (Note that the game itself is really nice, though occassionally strange things will happen, such as all of the town guards getting into a grand melee with each other.)
The weird things are awesome! Sometimes when you fool around and kill guards, all the townsfolk revolt with you. Then you climb to a high place and watch the blood bath :evil:.
And near the end of Oblivion's story mode, my friend
was standing right behind the spot where martin turns into a dragon then a statue, and he got stuck inside the statues tail :o. I have no clue how it happened, and neither does he, but he had to start over from his last save an hour ago :mad:. He has never been able to do it again.
EDIT: Psycho: Can you link to a page that talks about the AI please?
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
I wish I had a page at hand. The info I got on the A.I. was from a while back in a copy of EGM.
Basically, it sets up a system of needs that the characters fulfill. Then there's a second system that determines how those needs are to be fulfilled.
here are a few examples from their beta testing of the A.I.;
1. A minotaur was placed to protect a unicorn. Unfortunately, every time they made him hungry he would kill the Unicorn for food. They realized that his need for food was a top priority, so they set some random other creatures for him to eat.
2. They gave one NPC a rake and gave him the need to sweep. They gave another a broom and gave him a need to rake leaves. Rather than try their best with the tool they had (something they could do), they chose instead to attack each other. Upon his companion's death, the sweeper calmly continued to sweep the floor as if nothing happened.
3. On a lark, a developer made one of the guards of a town very hungry. His response? He grabbed his bow and went hunting. The other guards decided to run off and arrest him. In their absence, the townsfolk started robbing each other blind.
This reactive needs system is just insane.
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Banner and avatar by me.
Official Character Sheet Shredder of DAMNIT
DAMNIT: I should never have to shred my own character sheet in frustration.
Sound is important for me, as I'm a total video game music junkie.
So, anyone mind if I bounce some ideas off of all of you?
In my game Rise, we've been noticing some issues with the concept of Defense.
Defense in Rise is similar to AC in 3.0/3.5 D&D, in that for the purpose of attacks, you need to make a dice roll + your attack score and surpass the target's defense to make a successful hit.
Your Defense Score is determined by adding your Stamina score to a base Defense Value, which is currently set at five. The ability score progression is a quick scaling point based, and it's not unnatural for mid level characters to have ATK and STA scores of between 20-40ish. Because of this, the DEF score seems to be somewhat inconsequential for all but the most specific roles- basically, if anything but a primary caster makes an attack, they almost always hit an enemy of an equivalent strength, unless that enemy ignores his other statistics and pours it all into STA (which is usually a bad idea, as you can't do anything but hold off attacks for a while and then die).
So, the system doesn't really allow for armor, as the characters are all ghosts, and thus unable to strap themselves down with a lot of armor- also, it has a modern setting, and random platemail would just seem silly.
So, the mods and I for the game were discussing a few options-
Option 1: Scrap the DEF system, incorporate a system for Evasion and Damage Reduction.
Pros: Much more functional.
Cons: Basically means rewriting all of the combat rules mid-game, and reteaching all of our players the rules, which we would really like to avoid.
Option 2: Incorporate a system of scaling base DEF, based on Defense Modes that are contigent on another unrelated stat.
Pros: Much easier to integrate into the system, works well with other mechanics in the game.
Cons: May not do much more than add more numbers to the problem in high-level play.
Any ideas you guys can give me? I would really appreciate it.
Are you running a test game? If so, players should be understanding of rules tweaks. If the problem isn't their additude but their comprehension, you might find it easier to wrap up the story and then let them make new characters for another adventure. New characters will let them approach their play built on the new rules.
Another thing you can do to help the situation is to introduce another use for stamina. Stamina could be used in a fatigue check. After a certain amount of attacks, actions, or time in motion, characters have to make a fatigue check to see if they will get a fatigue penalty to all rolls. This increases the potential of the defensive player to win out in the end by holding off until the opponent is too tired to defend himself.
I think there's a difference between bad character design and ugly people. If someone is not a good looking person, they aren't. In most games, RPGs, anything, there are five types of NPCs...
1. Professional models who do something on the side.
2. Old people
3. Children
4. Odd looking people like anthromorphic animals and characters who just look weird.
5. Evil looking monsters that are supposed to look ugly.
Basically, if it's human (or mostly human), it's hot.
There are no children in TES
...I found myself fantasizing about that Khajit lady who sells horses in the stables out side of Chorrol. Is that so wrong?
Are you running a test game? If so, players should be understanding of rules tweaks. If the problem isn't their additude but their comprehension, you might find it easier to wrap up the story and then let them make new characters for another adventure. New characters will let them approach their play built on the new rules.
Another thing you can do to help the situation is to introduce another use for stamina. Stamina could be used in a fatigue check. After a certain amount of attacks, actions, or time in motion, characters have to make a fatigue check to see if they will get a fatigue penalty to all rolls. This increases the potential of the defensive player to win out in the end by holding off until the opponent is too tired to defend himself.
Well, "wrapping up" really isn't an option with this group. I have been talking with the mods and Psychoburner, and we've decided that the scaling system is the best- I did some testing with it, and it really seems to fit the bill and answer all our problems pretty well. The group is pretty adaptable to rules changes, but we are dealing with mixed levels of experience with gaming in general- for some of us, it's not a big deal, but for others, this is their first experience with a game that wasn't played on a console or without a system (i.e. Collo style games).
Stamina already has some other important applications, in that it is also the only statistic that factors into IP growth (IP being the basic equivalent to HP in most games). STA is never a dump stat to begin with, every character has to make something of a priority of it. The problem is that the attack values of individual characters and abilities is growing faster than the Defense scores are, making all dice rolls after a certain point to be primarily a formality. However, by allowing multiple statistics to contribute to the growth of Defense, the Defense scores now grow in such a way that they are usually capable of being just a bit ahead of attack- just enough that there is a 7-15 point margin between the values on any given character... which is fine, because that means a d20 roll adds enough variety that both hits and misses are viable at all levels of play, which is exactly what I wanted to do.
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[16:23] Alacar Leoricar: maybe if you do it'll make the porn more meaningful
The (basic) way that defense works in Rise is as follows:the character delivering an attack rolls a d20 and adds that to their ATK stat. If this is at least as high as the defender's DEF, then the attack is successful. Since DEF is normally equal to 5+STA, that means that a character with an ATK of 8 who makes an attack on a character with a STA of 8 will hit four out of five times. If the attacker's ATK is even a few points higher than the defender's STA, then any defense that the defender has is essentially useless. By scaling DEF up with level, the game still rewards putting points into stats that raise defense. Furthermore, the system Photon's proposed, which makes other stats matter a little for defense, will likely narrow the gaps between the DEF values of two characters. (If one character has a DEF that is at least 20 greater than his partner, then any enemy they fight will either be incapable of hitting the former or will never miss the latter.)
I was thinking something along the lines of building a character as a clan, to serve as our mascot.
Or perhaps a "make a spell" contest.
Or very possibly both.
I like the idea as well and it should bring some creativity to our clan which is good. On another note sorry i have not posted in awhile just been busy hanging out with friends and playing some video games mainly rpgs. I would like to participate in the contest but i do not know where to begin sorry.
Seems to me either A) We can come up with Natural 20's OWN gaming system, which would be a serious undertaking, or use the d20 system, which seems to be the most common and popular, just based on sheer numbers. I could be wrong though.
For me, it goes; system and/or controls, fun factor, story, and presentation (sound, graphics).
Sound is important for me, as I'm a total video game music junkie.
So, anyone mind if I bounce some ideas off of all of you?
In my game Rise, we've been noticing some issues with the concept of Defense.
Defense in Rise is similar to AC in 3.0/3.5 D&D, in that for the purpose of attacks, you need to make a dice roll + your attack score and surpass the target's defense to make a successful hit.
Your Defense Score is determined by adding your Stamina score to a base Defense Value, which is currently set at five. The ability score progression is a quick scaling point based, and it's not unnatural for mid level characters to have ATK and STA scores of between 20-40ish. Because of this, the DEF score seems to be somewhat inconsequential for all but the most specific roles- basically, if anything but a primary caster makes an attack, they almost always hit an enemy of an equivalent strength, unless that enemy ignores his other statistics and pours it all into STA (which is usually a bad idea, as you can't do anything but hold off attacks for a while and then die).
So, the system doesn't really allow for armor, as the characters are all ghosts, and thus unable to strap themselves down with a lot of armor- also, it has a modern setting, and random platemail would just seem silly.
So, the mods and I for the game were discussing a few options-
Option 1: Scrap the DEF system, incorporate a system for Evasion and Damage Reduction.
Pros: Much more functional.
Cons: Basically means rewriting all of the combat rules mid-game, and reteaching all of our players the rules, which we would really like to avoid.
Option 2: Incorporate a system of scaling base DEF, based on Defense Modes that are contigent on another unrelated stat.
Pros: Much easier to integrate into the system, works well with other mechanics in the game.
Cons: May not do much more than add more numbers to the problem in high-level play.
Any ideas you guys can give me? I would really appreciate it.
I like option one better. The thought of making stat calculation much more difficult makes my brain hurt. I already have to have 4 windows open to do it without making mistakes.
For the graphics discussion, It does actually annoy me when games have bad graphics. Not enough for me to drop a good game, but when the graphics manage to mess up the games play quality, (as in, you can't control your character because you can't see anything) then the game is not worth playing.
Oblivion looks fine on the Xbox 360 to me. The environment is incredible. I've definately heard it runs very slowly to have graphics comparable to the console version on a PC though.
Yeah, I'm the same way. At the same time, as an artist, I can really dig some excelent artwork. It wont make me play a game for a long time, but simple beauty can be appreciated for a bit. I picked up Magna Carta, and it has some great visuals. Unfortunatly, the game sucked. It's been setting on my shelf for a very long time. I did truly appreciate the visuals, but I wont play it.
Okami is on the other side of the spectrum. It's a brilliant story with imaginative and seamless gameplay. The music is great, as well as the visuals, which are breathtaking and artistic. The fact that they made the game resemble a classic watercolor painting, just effects some part of my psyche. The visuals and the music help the game be entrancing. The atmosphere it creates truly pulls me in.
I guess what I'm trying to say is; Graphics don't matter much to me, but when a wonderfull game happens to have artfull graphics, it simply drives me nuts.
One thing to consider about "beautifull" people in games. From my experience, a perfectly beautifull person is a lot easier to draw than an "ugly" person. It's the imperfections that make a human face complex and this means that the more "perfect" a face, the easier it is to create in a pixalated form.
That's my point, though. I'd basically have to hack the system apart and rebuild it to incorporate that, which is going to be hell on the people who are already struggling with the rules as it is.
Option 1 would require just as much calculation, and make it necessary for everyone to change their abilities, statistics, and passives, and I would have to totally rewrite the rules on combat (along with a good part of the ability generation guidelines) to suit it. Option 2 just sort of plugs into the game as it is, with only 1 simple formula that won't even effect most of the cast as it is now.
And near the end of Oblivion's story mode, my friend
EDIT: Psycho: Can you link to a page that talks about the AI please?
Basically, it sets up a system of needs that the characters fulfill. Then there's a second system that determines how those needs are to be fulfilled.
here are a few examples from their beta testing of the A.I.;
1. A minotaur was placed to protect a unicorn. Unfortunately, every time they made him hungry he would kill the Unicorn for food. They realized that his need for food was a top priority, so they set some random other creatures for him to eat.
2. They gave one NPC a rake and gave him the need to sweep. They gave another a broom and gave him a need to rake leaves. Rather than try their best with the tool they had (something they could do), they chose instead to attack each other. Upon his companion's death, the sweeper calmly continued to sweep the floor as if nothing happened.
3. On a lark, a developer made one of the guards of a town very hungry. His response? He grabbed his bow and went hunting. The other guards decided to run off and arrest him. In their absence, the townsfolk started robbing each other blind.
This reactive needs system is just insane.
I was thinking something along the lines of building a character as a clan, to serve as our mascot.
Or perhaps a "make a spell" contest.
Or very possibly both.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
That could work too, except I have no idea what you mean by marquee aspects.
Still, I'd like to try that
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
Are you running a test game? If so, players should be understanding of rules tweaks. If the problem isn't their additude but their comprehension, you might find it easier to wrap up the story and then let them make new characters for another adventure. New characters will let them approach their play built on the new rules.
Another thing you can do to help the situation is to introduce another use for stamina. Stamina could be used in a fatigue check. After a certain amount of attacks, actions, or time in motion, characters have to make a fatigue check to see if they will get a fatigue penalty to all rolls. This increases the potential of the defensive player to win out in the end by holding off until the opponent is too tired to defend himself.
There are no children in TES
...I found myself fantasizing about that Khajit lady who sells horses in the stables out side of Chorrol. Is that so wrong?
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Well, "wrapping up" really isn't an option with this group. I have been talking with the mods and Psychoburner, and we've decided that the scaling system is the best- I did some testing with it, and it really seems to fit the bill and answer all our problems pretty well. The group is pretty adaptable to rules changes, but we are dealing with mixed levels of experience with gaming in general- for some of us, it's not a big deal, but for others, this is their first experience with a game that wasn't played on a console or without a system (i.e. Collo style games).
Stamina already has some other important applications, in that it is also the only statistic that factors into IP growth (IP being the basic equivalent to HP in most games). STA is never a dump stat to begin with, every character has to make something of a priority of it. The problem is that the attack values of individual characters and abilities is growing faster than the Defense scores are, making all dice rolls after a certain point to be primarily a formality. However, by allowing multiple statistics to contribute to the growth of Defense, the Defense scores now grow in such a way that they are usually capable of being just a bit ahead of attack- just enough that there is a 7-15 point margin between the values on any given character... which is fine, because that means a d20 roll adds enough variety that both hits and misses are viable at all levels of play, which is exactly what I wanted to do.
I like the idea as well and it should bring some creativity to our clan which is good. On another note sorry i have not posted in awhile just been busy hanging out with friends and playing some video games mainly rpgs. I would like to participate in the contest but i do not know where to begin sorry.
The only thing is deciding on a system, since we all have such varying experiences with different tabletops.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei