I was rather torn on how to build my pool, considering I opened a pretty decent Abzan-colored pool (starring 2x Siege Rhino).......
.......with 3x Singing Bell Strike. I'm seriously still wondering if I should have just cut the pump spells that were in green and splashed for those (I had two common duals that supported blue and my tertiary primary colors
Yeah, I was pleased with the pace and play of the games today. Seemed just about right. I'm liking this format so far.
My main concern at this point is balance. It seems that some of the clans are just structurally stronger than others. It wouldn't surprise me at this point if a typical balanced draft table has half the players or more in Abzan.
Unless you're very aggressive, I think Singing Bell Strike is awful. So I think it was the right call not to.
(this is just in theory; I've never played with or against the card)
The evaluations of that card (from people who are good) range from bad to one of the best commons. It will be very interesting to see who turns out to be right.
Sealed I think strongly favors Abzan, but if there's an aggro deck to be had in the format, it's more likely to come out in draft than sealed. So I guess we'll see.
Singing-Bell Strike got used a lot against me at the prerelease, and it functioned as reasonable removal against me in the sense that I generally never wanted to untap the guy. But it doesn't do much of anything to Outlast guys because their static ability is still on. It's not impressive, and if I had really wanted to, I could pretty easily have slowed down the game by playing more defensively and then negated the card just with mana. I wouldn't run it unless I had a very specific plan for how to end the game before turn 8, and I'm not sure that's something that happens in this sealed format.
The evaluations of that card (from people who are good) range from bad to one of the best commons.
Definitely not one of the best Commons, which I'm quite confident in without having played any of the set at all.
This card is functionally like bad, sorcery speed bounce most of the time. As such, Force Away is better in almost every situation and the cases where it isn't can't possibly come up often enough to make Singing Bell the stronger card. Crippling Chill is probably also better in most decks which would want Singing Bell. And both of those are in the same colour, so far from being the best Common I suspect Bell will often stay in the sideboard.
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<Limited Clan>
Both of my decks had singing bell strikes in them. You have to remember that 6 mana is a lot, so even in the late game, it will at least slow your opponent down. Obviously, I'd prefer hard removal if I could get it, but beggars can't be choosers. And I felt it was generally worth the card unless I was against a defensive deck or we'd reached the very late game when my opponent had 9+ lands. I'd take it in my opening hand 9/10 over force away and 10/10 over crippling chill.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Sealed I think strongly favors Abzan, but if there's an aggro deck to be had in the format, it's more likely to come out in draft than sealed. So I guess we'll see.
I don't think Sealed favors Abzan. At its core, Abzan is a synergy deck, with outlast cards granting abilities to other outlast cards, Kind of like Allies/Slivers, which were much stronger in Draft than in Sealed. So Abzan should be even stronger in Draft.
The problem with aggro decks in this format is that all the common/uncommon fixing lands ETBT. So I wonder if aggro decks will want to just be 2 colors. Of course, by just being 2 colors you give up a lot of power.
I don't think Sealed favors Abzan. At its core, Abzan is a synergy deck, with outlast cards granting abilities to other outlast cards, Kind of like Allies/Slivers, which were much stronger in Draft than in Sealed. So Abzan should be even stronger in Draft.
Maybe. The thing is that all of the Outlast guys are mono-color, and the all of the ones that grant abilities are strong cards on their own. It's completely reasonable to have just one Ainok Bond-Kin as an Outlaster, for example - it'll still be an unbelievable blowout with Mer-Ek Nightblade or Incremental Growth, of course, but even without it, it's one of the best 2-drops in the set.
I kind of see Abzan (or at least, Outlast) getting forced a lot in draft, so the ceiling on its power level shouldn't be nearly as high as it was at the prerelease.
RE: Singing Bell Strike. Every time I had it used against me, I typically didn't pay the piper to untap because I needed the mana for other things (usually flipping morphs). 6 is quite a lot, and Strike functions as a cheaper Claustrophobia very early on as well. Since 5 mana is the make-or-break point in Limited, asking someone to commit 6 is quite an investment to reuse one creature every turn. If they plop 2-3 Strikes, you're basically getting Claustrophobia for two mana and shutting down their development (and chance for tricks) should they decide to untap. That's how I see it, anyway.
On a different note, I had a time of it deciding when using Outlast was beneficial, typically against Mardu decks (since those can just turn sideways with something like Disowned Ancestor and not worry too much about losing it while still enabling Raid conditions). Usually we'd have roughly equivalent boards, so forcing one of mine to grow larger didn't really seem productive since it came with the attachment of "lose X life" because they could sneak some damage through. For those of you that have played with it, what were your thoughts because I kept frowning at my board multiple times wondering: "Is it even worth losing a potential blocker/Mardu-halter for a +1/+1 counter?"
I realized after posting that last post that I was being hyperbolic - the card is not awful, but I will personally play it very rarely, most likely. My play style is very attrition-based, and Singing Bell Strike and Oppressive Rays are the kind of cards that I will go out of my way to not run in my deck, since they spew value. Granted, I do think Strike is better than Rays, but it still doesn't fit into the sort of deck that I like to draft.
Had a so-so pre-release. I continued my tradition of taking an unpopular clan/color/guild for my first pre-release event and chose BUG (sorry not used to the new Clan names yet). I was very lucky with the rares I pulled: 4/5 flying delve guy, the two-mana Cat Demon that seems super undervalued right now, the Lich Lord, and the Ascendancy (which was better than I expected), and no fetchlands. I won my first 3 matches pretty easily. Round 4 we went to time, and I conceded the match, which led to my opponent offering a prize split (I accepted). My last round opponent also offered a prize split (which I thought I clearly accepted), but then took the prizes for himself. I had tried to explain before we started that we should still play the match, since a draw would lead to fewer packs for us to split, but he didn't seem to understand. He was a pretty new player, so it may have been partially my fault not explaining the situation clearly enough. He beat me in two quick games where I drew lots of delve cards with no way to play them, and then he left with all the packs. Luckily, my 4th round opponent did not leave with the packs, so I still went home with 9 packs (that contained exactly zero fetchlands). I just kept trying to remind myself not to get too mad about my opponent pocketing the packs because I still ended up with some prize.
For 2HG we chose Junk and RUG and went 2-2. We opened 3 fetchlands (I took home two of them, and my partner took home the blue one).
On Sunday I went to another store. I picked Junk and went 2-1 in a 10 person event. No fetches in the pool or the 3 prize packs.
General casual Magic event question: During the Sunday event I was playing against a guy I've played before. It is a pre-release, so fairly casual. He's a pretty good player, and we get along pretty well. On his turn he played something for 3 mana before combat. He then attacks, and I declare my blockers. He then starts to cast a spell, and realizes that none of the lands he has untapped produce white mana. He never asks if he can retap his lands, but he clearly wants me to offer that he can redo it. In these types of events, I will often let people take things back, like if they attack but didn't see that my blocker had reach, or retap lands when they realize right after they cast something that they did their lands wrong. My thought in this particular situation was that since we were in a new phase, that it was too late to go back to change the way he tapped his lands. Also, since I had already declared blocks, I could have said something like, "If you had white mana open, I may not have blocked that way." I'm not sure that's true, but I could still make the claim. He was pretty mad (mostly at himself), but does my decision make sense? How strict are you guys about things like this at FNM and pre-releases and other similar events? Thoughts?
I'm more strict about it if it's an experienced player I'm facing, even at prereleases. But if they seem new or inexperienced, I'm lenient and allow certain takebacks, like that one.
I'm a very casual player; I'd pretty much always allow a takeback like that unless the opponent has been trying to rules lawyer, or if he's one particular player at my store who is WAY better than me and wouldn't make that sort of mistake in the first place. Especially not at a prerelease.
@Sene and @Puddle, both of your perspectives played into my decision: My opponent was a very good, experienced player. He knew that he had tapped carelessly. I probably just asked because I feel like I am usually too nice. I often let players take things back, but I almost never ask my opponents to let me take things back. Play errors are my biggest weakness (as you've seen in my video evidence), so part of me feels like if I let myself get away with them at FNM, I'll never learn when I travel to GPs and other big events where there are no take-backs.
I'd probably allow the takeback there, unless the blocks had somehow given away information.
Amusing Cube game today. I have Ratchet Bomb for the opponent's morph, but decide not to pop it immediately because I want to Tinker with it (for Battlesphere). Turns out it's Nantuko Vigilante and blows up my Bomb, so I draw into Channel, channel out a Sundering Titan, copy my own Titan, then Force Spike his reanimation attempt.
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
The level at the local shop has dropped somewhat, but i did manage to 3-0 my first Khans draft. Have to start practicing for the WMC (since i was fortunate enough to win the local one). Drafted Temur with no removal except for two man-o-wars and 2 of the +6/+6 card. Seemed really strong with all my trample guys. The format seem slow and grindy, which is just the way i like it. I'm making a box of limited decks, where i'll save all my decks before the WMC. Which ones go 3-0, 2-1, which colors do well etc. Maybe i'll have some insights.
This format seems fun to me so far. I spiked my two prereleases, going 5-0 in the midnight for 27 packs and 4-0-1 in the second for 27 more. I didn't drop a game the entire time. First deck was straight Abzan with bombs galore, and the second was a Tahn special: a 5-color mess of dual lands and powerful, grindy spells.
Drafted Jeskai tonight and had a fairly easy time going 3-0, in spite of pairing the 2 toughest players in the pod (besides me, cough) in round 1 and 3. I had amazing fixing and amazing card quality, including double Jeskai Charm, triple Force Away, Crater Claws, Icy Blast, Mantis Rider, and triple Efreet Weaponmaster. The set seems fairly interactive and skill intensive so far.
Sorry I haven't been around much. Teaching is kicking my behind right now.
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Providing a plethora of pompous and pedantic postings here since 2009.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
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I hereby found the American Chapter of the Zealots of Semantics. All glory to The Curmudgeon.
Bad beat story incoming! Normally I don't do these, but this one was beyond ridiculous. I'd say likely the most insane randomness I've ever experienced in a game of Magic.
Innistrad draft.
I'm on the play. Keep 4 land (including Nephalia Drownyard), Forbidden Alchemy, Fortress Crab, Murder of Crows. My first couple of draw steps are lands, he plays turn 2 Manor Skeleton, 3 Trepanation Blade. I Alchemy at the end of his turn, revealing 4 lands. Untap, draw land, play Fortress Crab. His turn, he equips his skeleton, attacks. Trepanation Blade mills me for FIFTEEN. I tank before taking the damage, going to 2 (he has regeneration up). Play Murder of Crows. He apparently has nothing but the Skeleton going on, and attacks again, milling 3 more spells. At this point, I only have two more spells in my deck (Ghoulcaller's Chant and Undead Alchemist), either would probably be good enough to win the game, but I end up drawing/milling all lands (including with a couple of Think Twice flashbacks), with my two spells being on the bottom, with him on 4 life and 3 cards left in his library.
End of story: I got decked in a game where I never drew a single spell beyond my opening hand. Just mindbogglingly unlikely.
@Sene: That'll teach you to ALWAYS draft a Memory's Journey, right?
I've gotten a few KTK drafts in (four by now to be precise) and I'm loving this format. It might become my favorite format ever. The fact that I'm winning a ton helps (went 3-0 in three of them, and 2-1 in one, and all 11 of my victories were 2-0), but more importantly - well, just look at the last deck I drafted. I think it speaks for itself:
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
Nice. I drafted once last week, and my friend had two Warden of the Eye, Master the Way and Treasure Cruise in his deck. I was incredibly jealous. I had drafted B/R aggro splashing white for three Mardu Charms. I won 6-4 against him when we played (we just jammed a bunch of games to learn more about the decks and cards we had drafted), but if he only had a couple more cheap spells I don't think I would have been favored. The Goblinslides you had there would have been quite problematic for me.
But yeah, I agree, I have been very pleased with what I've seen so far, and I anticipate drafting this format a ton. During the rumor season I was reserving my judgment until I had seen the common manafixing, and the common manafixing turned out to be great, so I was pretty optimistic after that
Still haven't drafted the new set, but my LGS held a sealed event on Saturday. I managed to put together a decent BUG deck splashing white for Siege Rhino. I was a little bummed that I didn't have the mana to make red work since I opened a Sarkhan, but I'm sure I'll get to play with him some other time. The card that really made the deck was Trail of Mystery. I played 8 morph creatures, and that card just wrecked. Later I was discussing the new format with some friends. One of them had been having early success primarily playing aggro strategies because early in games people are reluctant to trade their morphs. I think that's going to be one of the big skill testers of the format. I was able to have success with my heavy morph deck (even without drawing Trail of Mystery) partially because I was willing to trade off my morphs with my opponents' creatures. Sure I would have loved to see some of them morph into bigger threats, but I also wanted to live long enough to even have that option!
So I went 4-0 and won 16 packs. The store lets us "bank" packs to use as partial entry fees for future drafts. I asked if I could open packs until I opened a fetch and bank the rest. The owner was cool with it, so he handed me a few packs and said start with those and give back whatever you want. I opened the first pack, saw a Polluted Delta, and immediately banked the other 15. Victory!
I'm going to a PTQ this Saturday to try and get back to the Pro Tour. This will be my first time playing the set. Wish me luck. Format looks awesome so far and am really looking forward to it.
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2nd place behind Paulo after round 3 of Pro Tour M15
(finished 8-8, but beat Alexander Hayne and Ben Stark)
@Ulthwithian: Yeah, it's pretty fun. Seems like people are really into this draft format, more than I have ever seen before. I mean, for the forum draft, usually each thread has like 10-12 replies, but in this case we're talking 60-70 replies for each pick. But the format is really difficult! I've done a couple of them IRL and it's incredibly hard to know whether you should take manafixing, an easy-to-cast card to hedge, or the more powerful multicolored card. I'm looking forward to drafting it more, and even more than that am I looking forward to the Pro Tour. Following this one will be a ton of fun.
Also, 8-Way Draft is correct; 8 - Way Draft is not
I will concur that the forum draft has been fascinating this time around. It's always fun to vote and share an opinion before I've even drafted a set. I'm praying for a chance to draft once or twice this weekend. Not sure it's going to work out though. Either way, this set looks really cool and really fun and I'm so excited!
.......with 3x Singing Bell Strike. I'm seriously still wondering if I should have just cut the pump spells that were in green and splashed for those (I had two common duals that supported blue and my tertiary primary colors
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
(this is just in theory; I've never played with or against the card)
My main concern at this point is balance. It seems that some of the clans are just structurally stronger than others. It wouldn't surprise me at this point if a typical balanced draft table has half the players or more in Abzan.
The evaluations of that card (from people who are good) range from bad to one of the best commons. It will be very interesting to see who turns out to be right.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Singing-Bell Strike got used a lot against me at the prerelease, and it functioned as reasonable removal against me in the sense that I generally never wanted to untap the guy. But it doesn't do much of anything to Outlast guys because their static ability is still on. It's not impressive, and if I had really wanted to, I could pretty easily have slowed down the game by playing more defensively and then negated the card just with mana. I wouldn't run it unless I had a very specific plan for how to end the game before turn 8, and I'm not sure that's something that happens in this sealed format.
This card is functionally like bad, sorcery speed bounce most of the time. As such, Force Away is better in almost every situation and the cases where it isn't can't possibly come up often enough to make Singing Bell the stronger card. Crippling Chill is probably also better in most decks which would want Singing Bell. And both of those are in the same colour, so far from being the best Common I suspect Bell will often stay in the sideboard.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I don't think Sealed favors Abzan. At its core, Abzan is a synergy deck, with outlast cards granting abilities to other outlast cards, Kind of like Allies/Slivers, which were much stronger in Draft than in Sealed. So Abzan should be even stronger in Draft.
The problem with aggro decks in this format is that all the common/uncommon fixing lands ETBT. So I wonder if aggro decks will want to just be 2 colors. Of course, by just being 2 colors you give up a lot of power.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Maybe. The thing is that all of the Outlast guys are mono-color, and the all of the ones that grant abilities are strong cards on their own. It's completely reasonable to have just one Ainok Bond-Kin as an Outlaster, for example - it'll still be an unbelievable blowout with Mer-Ek Nightblade or Incremental Growth, of course, but even without it, it's one of the best 2-drops in the set.
I kind of see Abzan (or at least, Outlast) getting forced a lot in draft, so the ceiling on its power level shouldn't be nearly as high as it was at the prerelease.
On a different note, I had a time of it deciding when using Outlast was beneficial, typically against Mardu decks (since those can just turn sideways with something like Disowned Ancestor and not worry too much about losing it while still enabling Raid conditions). Usually we'd have roughly equivalent boards, so forcing one of mine to grow larger didn't really seem productive since it came with the attachment of "lose X life" because they could sneak some damage through. For those of you that have played with it, what were your thoughts because I kept frowning at my board multiple times wondering: "Is it even worth losing a potential blocker/Mardu-halter for a +1/+1 counter?"
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
For 2HG we chose Junk and RUG and went 2-2. We opened 3 fetchlands (I took home two of them, and my partner took home the blue one).
On Sunday I went to another store. I picked Junk and went 2-1 in a 10 person event. No fetches in the pool or the 3 prize packs.
General casual Magic event question: During the Sunday event I was playing against a guy I've played before. It is a pre-release, so fairly casual. He's a pretty good player, and we get along pretty well. On his turn he played something for 3 mana before combat. He then attacks, and I declare my blockers. He then starts to cast a spell, and realizes that none of the lands he has untapped produce white mana. He never asks if he can retap his lands, but he clearly wants me to offer that he can redo it. In these types of events, I will often let people take things back, like if they attack but didn't see that my blocker had reach, or retap lands when they realize right after they cast something that they did their lands wrong. My thought in this particular situation was that since we were in a new phase, that it was too late to go back to change the way he tapped his lands. Also, since I had already declared blocks, I could have said something like, "If you had white mana open, I may not have blocked that way." I'm not sure that's true, but I could still make the claim. He was pretty mad (mostly at himself), but does my decision make sense? How strict are you guys about things like this at FNM and pre-releases and other similar events? Thoughts?
Amusing Cube game today. I have Ratchet Bomb for the opponent's morph, but decide not to pop it immediately because I want to Tinker with it (for Battlesphere). Turns out it's Nantuko Vigilante and blows up my Bomb, so I draw into Channel, channel out a Sundering Titan, copy my own Titan, then Force Spike his reanimation attempt.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Drafted Jeskai tonight and had a fairly easy time going 3-0, in spite of pairing the 2 toughest players in the pod (besides me, cough) in round 1 and 3. I had amazing fixing and amazing card quality, including double Jeskai Charm, triple Force Away, Crater Claws, Icy Blast, Mantis Rider, and triple Efreet Weaponmaster. The set seems fairly interactive and skill intensive so far.
Sorry I haven't been around much. Teaching is kicking my behind right now.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
Innistrad draft.
I'm on the play. Keep 4 land (including Nephalia Drownyard), Forbidden Alchemy, Fortress Crab, Murder of Crows. My first couple of draw steps are lands, he plays turn 2 Manor Skeleton, 3 Trepanation Blade. I Alchemy at the end of his turn, revealing 4 lands. Untap, draw land, play Fortress Crab. His turn, he equips his skeleton, attacks. Trepanation Blade mills me for FIFTEEN. I tank before taking the damage, going to 2 (he has regeneration up). Play Murder of Crows. He apparently has nothing but the Skeleton going on, and attacks again, milling 3 more spells. At this point, I only have two more spells in my deck (Ghoulcaller's Chant and Undead Alchemist), either would probably be good enough to win the game, but I end up drawing/milling all lands (including with a couple of Think Twice flashbacks), with my two spells being on the bottom, with him on 4 life and 3 cards left in his library.
End of story: I got decked in a game where I never drew a single spell beyond my opening hand. Just mindbogglingly unlikely.
I've gotten a few KTK drafts in (four by now to be precise) and I'm loving this format. It might become my favorite format ever. The fact that I'm winning a ton helps (went 3-0 in three of them, and 2-1 in one, and all 11 of my victories were 2-0), but more importantly - well, just look at the last deck I drafted. I think it speaks for itself:
1 Tranquil Cove
6 Island
6 Plains
4 Mountain
1 Jeskai Elder
1 Dragon's Eye Savants
1 Monastery Flock
1 Kheru Spellsnatcher
1 Warden of the Eye
1 Singing Bell Strike
2 Kill Shot
1 Jeskai Charm
1 Crippling Chill
1 Smite the Monstrous
1 End Hostilities
1 Master the Way
2 Blinding Spray
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Cancel
1 Treasure Cruise
2 Dig Through Time
Five creatures, with a grand total of 7 power? That has to be right.
(FYI: Goblinslide is insane and I intend to beat people with it until everyone knows it. I'm of course hoping that never happens.)
But yeah, I agree, I have been very pleased with what I've seen so far, and I anticipate drafting this format a ton. During the rumor season I was reserving my judgment until I had seen the common manafixing, and the common manafixing turned out to be great, so I was pretty optimistic after that
So I went 4-0 and won 16 packs. The store lets us "bank" packs to use as partial entry fees for future drafts. I asked if I could open packs until I opened a fetch and bank the rest. The owner was cool with it, so he handed me a few packs and said start with those and give back whatever you want. I opened the first pack, saw a Polluted Delta, and immediately banked the other 15. Victory!
2nd place behind Paulo after round 3 of Pro Tour M15
(finished 8-8, but beat Alexander Hayne and Ben Stark)
As people have noted in the Forum Draft, people's estimation of card value is... kinda all over the place.
@Ulthwithian: Yeah, it's pretty fun. Seems like people are really into this draft format, more than I have ever seen before. I mean, for the forum draft, usually each thread has like 10-12 replies, but in this case we're talking 60-70 replies for each pick. But the format is really difficult! I've done a couple of them IRL and it's incredibly hard to know whether you should take manafixing, an easy-to-cast card to hedge, or the more powerful multicolored card. I'm looking forward to drafting it more, and even more than that am I looking forward to the Pro Tour. Following this one will be a ton of fun.
Also, 8-Way Draft is correct; 8 - Way Draft is not