How is anyone supposed to keep caring about sensitivities of groups in society when people are offended as quickly and about such little details as is often the case today?
Take racism. The anti racism movement used to be about equal rights for everyone regardless of race. Which is something I wholeheartedly agree with. But now we have gotten to the point where the sole act of a white man dressing up as a black man is already considered racist even though there's no negative intent or depiction, see for example the recent issue with Antoine Griezmann or the recurring discussion each year about Black Pete in the Netherlands which even had someone from the UN getting involved. Or the N-word. White men can't say it even if they don't do so in a negative fashion yet black people are calling each other N... all the time and then it's ok. It's turned from "Race shouldn't matter" to "Being black shouldn't matter".
Take feminism. Feminism used to be about women having the same choice as men. Which is something I wholeheartedly agree with. But now, politicans and lobby clubs are constantly pushing that the outcomes have to be the same as well: as if everything has to be 50/50. The whole notion that maybe women in general might make different choices than men in general is completely ignored even though the % of women in higher education is actually higher than men's by now. It's turned from forcing one group of women to stay home to forcing another group of women to leave home.
Take freedom of religion. Freedom of religion used to be about being able to follow your religion of choice without fear of any repercussions for doing so. Which is something I wholeheartedly agree with (as an atheist). But now, religion is more and more trying to enforce it's rules upon those who do not follow it: legislation that allows stores to be open on sunday is actively opposed by Christian groups here in the Netherlands (just not going yourself is apparantly not enough), women dressing attractively are being harassed by Islam youngsters because it's not ok in their views etc. It's turned from the freedom to follow your religion of choice to the freedom of enforcing your religion of choice.
There are probably many more examples like this. It seems as if society wide, interest groups who started from a legitimate position are pushing their points beyond the reasonable in a struggle to stay relevant and ultimately, preserve their own jobs. But more and more, they are becoming like the boy who cried wolf, which makes you notice them but not listend anymore.
And it's also people themselves. People need to be able to separate themselves from the collective. I wear glasses and I'm a little overweight yet I don't feel offended when someone says something negatively about people who wear glasses or who are overweight. Belonging (in your own opinion) to a certain group does not make all critiscism towards that group automatically critiscism to you personally.
So how do keep caring about these kind of discussions? I feel too engaged about societal topics to simply ignore everything yet as described above it is at the same time made impossible to care.
(And yes, in addtion to being goggled and slightly overweight I'm also white and male. If your only contribution to this discussion is that's probably the reason why I can't tell I wish to thank you in advance for your potential contribution to this thread but kindly suggest you take it elsewhere.)
In all seriousness, have you considered you're just not as good a person as you believe you are?
Your entire post here says "I'm all for freedom and equality! Except when it means I'm not already a good person doing all the right things."
It's pretty clear you've made up your mind where the problem is on all these issues, especially because you seem to know you're in the key "I don't see it, it doesn't impact me, so I don't get it" demographic. So what, exactly, are we supposed to talk about?
I absolutely would have agreed with this post ten years ago. I thought I knew everything, and that it was just other people being stupid.
Then I realized I'd been heavily influenced by just one side of the story. I started reading research and real articles on the issues I thought were settled and people were oversensitive. Ostensibly, to tear them apart for being so dumb. I started working EMS among the "lazy, oversensitive" communities. I paid attention to the actual arguments people I disagreed with were making, not the strawmen that people I agreed with made them out to be. And no, they weren't all correct in my view, but it was a vastly different experience.
You know what I found out? I was just an ********.
In all seriousness, have you considered you're just not as good a person as you believe you are?
Your entire post here says "I'm all for freedom and equality! Except when it means I'm not already a good person doing all the right things."
It's pretty clear you've made up your mind where the problem is on all these issues, especially because you seem to know you're in the key "I don't see it, it doesn't impact me, so I don't get it" demographic. So what, exactly, are we supposed to talk about?
I absolutely would have agreed with this post ten years ago. I thought I knew everything, and that it was just other people being stupid.
Then I realized I'd been heavily influenced by just one side of the story. I started reading research and real articles on the issues I thought were settled and people were oversensitive. I started working EMS among the lazy, oversensitive communities. I paid attention to the actual arguments people I disagreed with were making, not the strawmen that people I agreed with made them out to be. And no, they weren't all correct in my view, but it was a vastly different experience.
You know what I found out? I was just an ********.
In all seriousness, how do you get from that interpretation from my post? Not being a jerk here, I honestly can't follow your logic how you came to your interpretation of me saying "I'm all for freedom and equality! Except when it means I'm not already a good person doing all the right things.".
As for for having my mind made up about these issues: This is what I think is going on after reading about these discussions in the media and discussing these with people and thinking about them myself. Feel free to educate me! That's exactly what I'm asking for! I explain what I see happening and I realize what it does to me and how I start to handle this issue. I also know a lot of people feel different than I do so that's why I'm here asking other how they keep caring. To see if there are trains of thought that I can get behind that I have not seen yet. How that makes me believe I'm a good person and that's that is beyond me, from where I sit it seems to te the direct opposite. If I believed that I would have just post a rant about how all minorities/subgroups/genergroups/[insert your special interest here] are stupid and have to shut up. instead I'm here looking for input from the other side.
As for which demographic I belong to: I specifically mention that in my post because "you're male and white so you wouldn't understand" is just as condescending and honestly, plain stupid, as "you're black and female so you wouldn't understand" would be or any other gender/color/race combination would be. It's exactly this that bothers me in these types of discussions: if you claim something, then the opposite must also be true: either color/race/gender matters or it doesn't. But not just when it suits the person making the argument. Which kind of is the essence of my opening post.
Also Jay13x, I've read quite some comments from you on this boards and I know form the Archive Trap articles you write that logic and deduction is in your skill set. Not too mention that you usually treat people on this form with more respect than average. I must have somehow hit an open nerve with you on this one with you implicitly calling me an ******** as it doesn't suit your normal MO. Having said that I did not mean to offend you or anyone with this post, just hoping to get some genuine input and have a sensible and adult discussion on this topic.
Also Jay13x, I've read quite some comments from you on this boards and I know form the Archive Trap articles you write that logic and deduction is in your skill set. Not too mention that you usually treat people on this form with more respect than average. I must have somehow hit an open nerve with you on this one with you implicitly calling me an ******** as it doesn't suit your normal MO. Having said that I did not mean to offend you or anyone with this post, just hoping to get some genuine input and have a sensible and adult discussion on this topic.
I apologize for coming off that way. It's early in the morning here and I hadn't had my caffeine yet. We shut down debate here because it was just too many reports for such a small section. Random forum goers aren't really the ones to follow on these issues anyway. The idea of another debate-style thread was just exhausting.
Let me explain why this hits a nerve. This general attitude, here in the United States, has made the country actively more dangerous for myself and my family. My wife is originally from India (as in, she emigrated here when she was a kid, not just of Indian descent). She's a physician, and ever since the 2016 election here, harassment and actual attacks from patients for being whatever they think she is (a terrorist and muslim, an illegal mexican, just brown in 'their' country, whatever) have skyrocketed.
Not that any of my white family or friends actually see that. They think we're exaggerating. If anything, we don't tell them everything that's going on.
Here's what I was trying to get at, without turning this into a debate-style thread: I'm not kidding or trying to slyly insult you when I said I used to think exactly like you. I was definitely an ******** about it. You want to understand? Start with the assumption that you might not be right. Then start reading about these issues from people with a different opinion, accepting that not everyone is right and being wrong about some things doesn't invalidate their entire argument. You don't have to change your mind.
I understand you're from the Netherlands, and it's a lovely place but probably not the best for seeing the issues surrounding diversity and sensitivity. So reach out and learn. Is that fair?
Also Jay13x, I've read quite some comments from you on this boards and I know form the Archive Trap articles you write that logic and deduction is in your skill set. Not too mention that you usually treat people on this form with more respect than average. I must have somehow hit an open nerve with you on this one with you implicitly calling me an ******** as it doesn't suit your normal MO. Having said that I did not mean to offend you or anyone with this post, just hoping to get some genuine input and have a sensible and adult discussion on this topic.
I apologize for coming off that way. It's early in the morning here and I hadn't had my caffeine yet.
Let me explain why this hits a nerve. This general attitude, here in the United States, has made the country actively more dangerous for myself and my family. My wife is originally from India (as in, she emigrated here when she was a kid, not just of Indian descent). She's a physician, and ever since the 2016 election here, harassment and actual attacks from patients for being whatever they think she is (a terrorist and muslim, an illegal mexican, just brown in 'their' country, whatever) have skyrocketed.
Not that any of my white family or friends actually see that. They think we're exaggerating. If anything, we don't tell them everything that's going on.
...
I understand you're from the Netherlands, and it's a lovely place but probably not the best for seeing the issues surrounding diversity and sensitivity. So reach out and learn. Is that fair?
I'm sorry to hear that and I can see why experiencing those things first hand makes you feel more strongly on this subjects. To further clarify n regards to my opening post: harassment and assault is obviously never ok, whether for racist reasons or not. This falls under the wholehearteldy agreeing part and is not the kind of thing I mean when I talk about crying wolf.
As for The Netherlands v.s. the US: we have racial/ethnic and other interest group tensions too. I do think the US is a more polarized society and these things are taken to more extremes. Then again, if Geert Wilders or a similar alt-right leader were to become prime-minister here, these tensions would heat up quickly over here too. If know people abroad often feel like the Netherlands is this multicultural happy place where everybody just gets along but we have issues with segregation and group concentrations and immigrants just as well, not too mention the starting emergence of a few no-go area's where even the police can't really keep up law and order. So I do feel as a Dutch man I am qualified enough to have a intellectual debate on this.
I'm not kidding or trying to slyly insult you when I said I used to think exactly like you. I was definitely an ******** about it. You want to understand? Start with the assumption that you might not be right. Then start reading about these issues from people with a different opinion, accepting that not everyone is right and being wrong about some things doesn't invalidate their entire argument. You don't have to change your mind.
That's exactly what I'm trying to achieve by starting this thread.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I should be clear, I don't think you're unqualified to talk about this, but that tensions over there aren't necessarily the same. I can't do a point by point rebuttal of all your points, but let me address one or two.
Reclamation of a slur isn't unfair, it's really the way to make a slur lose its power. It's still something that no one else should be using outside of an explicitly educational context.
Also, don't mistake activism for a specific cause (like Black Lives Matter) as that being the only thing that matters. In the US and many other countries, black people were stripped of their ethnic identities and abused for centuries. A group focusing on police brutality against the black population doesn't mean they don't also care about police brutality elsewhere. See: Justine Damond. It just happens to be something more prevalent elsewhere. And there are a lot of things that we, as people outside the community, don't necessarily see, or haven't come to light until more recently.
As for Feminism, there's a lot of strawmen out there. The big issue I see is that people assume that "What women want" is "What women are doing". Take Computer Science. Women used to dominate the industry, especially early in the field's lifetime. Yet today, they make up a small minority. Why? When did it become a boy's club? In what other fields is this true? You might look at the male/female demographic breakdown of doctors and nurses and conclude women just like being nurses. But there's a societal prejudice at play, too. Male nurses are often looked at as unmasculine, and I can tell you from experience that my wife can introduce herself as Dr. Mrs. Jay13x every day to a patient for a month, and they still think she's their nurse. And that's the most minor issue, even once women become doctors they're pressured into certain professions and out of others. Having the same choices on paper isn't the same thing as full equality, that's something that needs to be very clear. And there's not always empirical data to prove where these problems lie. Look at all the sexual harassment scandals popping up, where it was clear women knew they wouldn't be believed or the system ensured they couldn't talk about it.
As for the religion thing, I don't know. There's a feeling in some groups that Christianity is under attack in the US, which seems absurd when the vast majority of Americans identify as Christian. Some people can't see giving others freedom from your religion as religious freedom, I guess?
To be clear, there are people who go overboard on every topic. It doesn't make that position wrong. It doesn't mean you have to buy into everything they say.
That seems like a fair way to look at it. But how do you draw the line between a "fair position" and "something you don't have to buy into"? I mean some issues are more clear than others, and even a legitimate position can reach a tipping point. I fully understand where the Black Lives Matter movement is coming from and it's horrible that it is neccesary in the first place. But when every white cop using force when arresting a black man is under extra scrutiny because of colors involved, then that's taking it too far. Surely there must be a way to fight the fair fight without overcompensating? Because I think it's the overcompensating that creates the polarization on both sides: people dig in to their positions and nothing happens.
As for the example with your wife being doctor and not a nurse, I can see how that might be an annoyance from time to time but is something like that really something worth to make a fuzz about? I work as Financial Controller, yet people occasionally treat me like I'm just a Bob from accounting because they can't tell the difference. It's how you deal with that yourself that makes it a problem or not: you can't change everyone, but you can change the way you deal with it yourself.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I am inclined to say that all police activity should occur under intense scrutiny. When we, as a society, grant power to an individual through an office (be it police officer, member of the military, elected official or any other job which, in theory, they are to be serving and are empowered by the public), we need to keep a close watch on all of their actions for potential abuses of power if for no other reason than that potential exists.
Take racism. The anti racism movement used to be about equal rights for everyone regardless of race. Which is something I wholeheartedly agree with. But now we have gotten to the point where the sole act of a white man dressing up as a black man is already considered racist even though there's no negative intent or depiction, see for example the recent issue with Antoine Griezmann or the recurring discussion each year about Black Pete in the Netherlands which even had someone from the UN getting involved. Or the N-word. White men can't say it even if they don't do so in a negative fashion yet black people are calling each other N... all the time and then it's ok. It's turned from "Race shouldn't matter" to "Being black shouldn't matter".
Take feminism. Feminism used to be about women having the same choice as men. Which is something I wholeheartedly agree with. But now, politicans and lobby clubs are constantly pushing that the outcomes have to be the same as well: as if everything has to be 50/50. The whole notion that maybe women in general might make different choices than men in general is completely ignored even though the % of women in higher education is actually higher than men's by now. It's turned from forcing one group of women to stay home to forcing another group of women to leave home.
Take freedom of religion. Freedom of religion used to be about being able to follow your religion of choice without fear of any repercussions for doing so. Which is something I wholeheartedly agree with (as an atheist). But now, religion is more and more trying to enforce it's rules upon those who do not follow it: legislation that allows stores to be open on sunday is actively opposed by Christian groups here in the Netherlands (just not going yourself is apparantly not enough), women dressing attractively are being harassed by Islam youngsters because it's not ok in their views etc. It's turned from the freedom to follow your religion of choice to the freedom of enforcing your religion of choice.
There are probably many more examples like this. It seems as if society wide, interest groups who started from a legitimate position are pushing their points beyond the reasonable in a struggle to stay relevant and ultimately, preserve their own jobs. But more and more, they are becoming like the boy who cried wolf, which makes you notice them but not listend anymore.
And it's also people themselves. People need to be able to separate themselves from the collective. I wear glasses and I'm a little overweight yet I don't feel offended when someone says something negatively about people who wear glasses or who are overweight. Belonging (in your own opinion) to a certain group does not make all critiscism towards that group automatically critiscism to you personally.
So how do keep caring about these kind of discussions? I feel too engaged about societal topics to simply ignore everything yet as described above it is at the same time made impossible to care.
(And yes, in addtion to being goggled and slightly overweight I'm also white and male. If your only contribution to this discussion is that's probably the reason why I can't tell I wish to thank you in advance for your potential contribution to this thread but kindly suggest you take it elsewhere.)
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Your entire post here says "I'm all for freedom and equality! Except when it means I'm not already a good person doing all the right things."
It's pretty clear you've made up your mind where the problem is on all these issues, especially because you seem to know you're in the key "I don't see it, it doesn't impact me, so I don't get it" demographic. So what, exactly, are we supposed to talk about?
I absolutely would have agreed with this post ten years ago. I thought I knew everything, and that it was just other people being stupid.
Then I realized I'd been heavily influenced by just one side of the story. I started reading research and real articles on the issues I thought were settled and people were oversensitive. Ostensibly, to tear them apart for being so dumb. I started working EMS among the "lazy, oversensitive" communities. I paid attention to the actual arguments people I disagreed with were making, not the strawmen that people I agreed with made them out to be. And no, they weren't all correct in my view, but it was a vastly different experience.
You know what I found out? I was just an ********.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
In all seriousness, how do you get from that interpretation from my post? Not being a jerk here, I honestly can't follow your logic how you came to your interpretation of me saying "I'm all for freedom and equality! Except when it means I'm not already a good person doing all the right things.".
As for for having my mind made up about these issues: This is what I think is going on after reading about these discussions in the media and discussing these with people and thinking about them myself. Feel free to educate me! That's exactly what I'm asking for! I explain what I see happening and I realize what it does to me and how I start to handle this issue. I also know a lot of people feel different than I do so that's why I'm here asking other how they keep caring. To see if there are trains of thought that I can get behind that I have not seen yet. How that makes me believe I'm a good person and that's that is beyond me, from where I sit it seems to te the direct opposite. If I believed that I would have just post a rant about how all minorities/subgroups/genergroups/[insert your special interest here] are stupid and have to shut up. instead I'm here looking for input from the other side.
As for which demographic I belong to: I specifically mention that in my post because "you're male and white so you wouldn't understand" is just as condescending and honestly, plain stupid, as "you're black and female so you wouldn't understand" would be or any other gender/color/race combination would be. It's exactly this that bothers me in these types of discussions: if you claim something, then the opposite must also be true: either color/race/gender matters or it doesn't. But not just when it suits the person making the argument. Which kind of is the essence of my opening post.
Also Jay13x, I've read quite some comments from you on this boards and I know form the Archive Trap articles you write that logic and deduction is in your skill set. Not too mention that you usually treat people on this form with more respect than average. I must have somehow hit an open nerve with you on this one with you implicitly calling me an ******** as it doesn't suit your normal MO. Having said that I did not mean to offend you or anyone with this post, just hoping to get some genuine input and have a sensible and adult discussion on this topic.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Let me explain why this hits a nerve. This general attitude, here in the United States, has made the country actively more dangerous for myself and my family. My wife is originally from India (as in, she emigrated here when she was a kid, not just of Indian descent). She's a physician, and ever since the 2016 election here, harassment and actual attacks from patients for being whatever they think she is (a terrorist and muslim, an illegal mexican, just brown in 'their' country, whatever) have skyrocketed.
Not that any of my white family or friends actually see that. They think we're exaggerating. If anything, we don't tell them everything that's going on.
Here's what I was trying to get at, without turning this into a debate-style thread: I'm not kidding or trying to slyly insult you when I said I used to think exactly like you. I was definitely an ******** about it. You want to understand? Start with the assumption that you might not be right. Then start reading about these issues from people with a different opinion, accepting that not everyone is right and being wrong about some things doesn't invalidate their entire argument. You don't have to change your mind.
I understand you're from the Netherlands, and it's a lovely place but probably not the best for seeing the issues surrounding diversity and sensitivity. So reach out and learn. Is that fair?
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I'm sorry to hear that and I can see why experiencing those things first hand makes you feel more strongly on this subjects. To further clarify n regards to my opening post: harassment and assault is obviously never ok, whether for racist reasons or not. This falls under the wholehearteldy agreeing part and is not the kind of thing I mean when I talk about crying wolf.
As for The Netherlands v.s. the US: we have racial/ethnic and other interest group tensions too. I do think the US is a more polarized society and these things are taken to more extremes. Then again, if Geert Wilders or a similar alt-right leader were to become prime-minister here, these tensions would heat up quickly over here too. If know people abroad often feel like the Netherlands is this multicultural happy place where everybody just gets along but we have issues with segregation and group concentrations and immigrants just as well, not too mention the starting emergence of a few no-go area's where even the police can't really keep up law and order. So I do feel as a Dutch man I am qualified enough to have a intellectual debate on this.
I though this was the proper forum for discussions like these, feel free to move it if it's wrong?
That's exactly what I'm trying to achieve by starting this thread.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Reclamation of a slur isn't unfair, it's really the way to make a slur lose its power. It's still something that no one else should be using outside of an explicitly educational context.
Also, don't mistake activism for a specific cause (like Black Lives Matter) as that being the only thing that matters. In the US and many other countries, black people were stripped of their ethnic identities and abused for centuries. A group focusing on police brutality against the black population doesn't mean they don't also care about police brutality elsewhere. See: Justine Damond. It just happens to be something more prevalent elsewhere. And there are a lot of things that we, as people outside the community, don't necessarily see, or haven't come to light until more recently.
As for Feminism, there's a lot of strawmen out there. The big issue I see is that people assume that "What women want" is "What women are doing". Take Computer Science. Women used to dominate the industry, especially early in the field's lifetime. Yet today, they make up a small minority. Why? When did it become a boy's club? In what other fields is this true? You might look at the male/female demographic breakdown of doctors and nurses and conclude women just like being nurses. But there's a societal prejudice at play, too. Male nurses are often looked at as unmasculine, and I can tell you from experience that my wife can introduce herself as Dr. Mrs. Jay13x every day to a patient for a month, and they still think she's their nurse. And that's the most minor issue, even once women become doctors they're pressured into certain professions and out of others. Having the same choices on paper isn't the same thing as full equality, that's something that needs to be very clear. And there's not always empirical data to prove where these problems lie. Look at all the sexual harassment scandals popping up, where it was clear women knew they wouldn't be believed or the system ensured they couldn't talk about it.
As for the religion thing, I don't know. There's a feeling in some groups that Christianity is under attack in the US, which seems absurd when the vast majority of Americans identify as Christian. Some people can't see giving others freedom from your religion as religious freedom, I guess?
To be clear, there are people who go overboard on every topic. It doesn't make that position wrong. It doesn't mean you have to buy into everything they say.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
As for the example with your wife being doctor and not a nurse, I can see how that might be an annoyance from time to time but is something like that really something worth to make a fuzz about? I work as Financial Controller, yet people occasionally treat me like I'm just a Bob from accounting because they can't tell the difference. It's how you deal with that yourself that makes it a problem or not: you can't change everyone, but you can change the way you deal with it yourself.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I mean Austria is the only continental European nation that has figured out what to do, and it was integrating people back in, not shunning them.
The reason I bring it up is that the whole if you dont like it then leave, doesnt pan out in the long run.
Modern: Goblins,Storm
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Simic Merfolk