I've got friends in France (Lyon) and my buddy's girlfriend's familly is in Paris at the moment : things are out of control really. State of emergency and two terrorist attacks in less than a year...
The people doing these attacks are kinda the people the refugees are fleeing from.
There have already been cases of refugees identifying former IS memebers posing as refugees, so you should not assume that all refugees are opposed to IS.
The threat of terrorists using the masses to get into Europe easier is very real, and you can't always rely on official IS pictures to identify them.
I'm living in Poland, but I must admit, I got shivers when I heard of it, mostly because the goverment of my country is really stuck up on the entire "we gotta help the refugees" deal. Yeah, excuse me I don't want potential thousands of terrorists around me. Who can guarantee something like this won't happen here? Yes, I know it's extremists, not all Muslims are bloodthirsty psychos. But it's been a while since I heard about a terrorist from German or whatever.
I think combo and Jay13x are right on the money. France did indeed have extremist Muslims long before this refugee crisis, and I don't think the people who are refugees because they're fleeing from the IS are the ones you'd first think of with regards to terrorists.
There have already been cases of refugees identifying former IS memebers posing as refugees, so you should not assume that all refugees are opposed to IS.
The threat of terrorists using the masses to get into Europe easier is very real, and you can't always rely on official IS pictures to identify them.
Alright, let's let X equal the number of IS members posing as refugees, and let's let Y equal the total number of refugees.
What would you say X/Y equals?
We already have a thread for this in the Debate forum, Gusto. Why don't you keep it there?
I can't go further back then Julian Röpcke's Twitter post, everything beneath that is about Charlie Hebdo. The very first mention of people killed is 2 attackers, then 4 attackers at another venue, 14 in Le Petit Cambodge, 80 at Bataclan etc.
Btw, they already connect it to the refugee crisis:"Immediate suspicion for the events in Paris falls to so-called returnees -- people who have traveled to Syria and Iraq and have returned, the officials said."
But it's true that they already had radical Muslims before that, of course.
Btw, they already connect it to the refugee crisis:"Immediate suspicion for the events in Paris falls to so-called returnees -- people who have traveled to Syria and Iraq and have returned, the officials said."
... Which is not what a refugee is.
In fact, that's the complete opposite of what a refugee is.
Btw, they already connect it to the refugee crisis:"Immediate suspicion for the events in Paris falls to so-called returnees -- people who have traveled to Syria and Iraq and have returned, the officials said."
... Which is not what a refugee is.
In fact, that's the complete opposite of what a refugee is.
Did not say that they were refugees...
But it apparently turns out they are.
The Islamic world should have a cultural revolution. Not all Muslims are evil but there are a significant number of them who support these atrocities against infidels. Until Muslims learned how to co-exist with people of other faiths/beliefs then I am afraid these types or barbaric acts will continue.
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The Islamic world should have a cultural revolution. Not all Muslims are evil but there are a significant number of them who support these atrocities against infidels. Until Muslims learned how to co-exist with people of other faiths/beliefs then I am afraid these types or barbaric acts will continue.
This is absurd. The 'significant number' you talk about, when you combine every Muslim in every terrorist group across the entire world, makes up a fraction of 1% of the total population.
What we're talking about here is IS, which isn't really Muslim so much as a death cult that's number one victim is other Muslims.
This is absurd. The 'significant number' you talk about, when you combine every Muslim in every terrorist group across the entire world, makes up a fraction of 1% of the total population.
What we're talking about here is IS, which isn't really Muslim so much as a death cult that's number one victim is other Muslims.
I'm not saying that all Muslims are terrorist and I do know that IS represents a small fraction of the Muslim world. But it is a fact that Muslim countries are among the most intolerant nations in the world. Even on secular Muslim countries, the level of tolerance against those that doesn't belong to the Islamic faith are tested.
For example in Malaysia, perhaps the most secular Muslim country that claims to uphold national unity over religion. On that country, laws that favor Muslims over non-Muslims exist. It's a headache to be a non-Muslim specially in legal cases where your opponent is a Muslim.
In Iran, just recently the government implemented a policy that prevents/prohibits lots of Christians from joining and being promoted in the army.
In Pakistan, a law that punishes people who insults the Muslim prophet is used by many Muslims to settle scores with non-Muslim opponents.
Apostasy which should have stucked in the middle ages is still being practiced in these countries: Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. All Muslim countries.
And these are just some of the examples. If you watch an Arab television show, you will see shows and commercials that depict Jews as money-grabbing and power hungry schemers (just like what Hitler and the Nazi party did in 1930s Germany). Lots of televised preaching from Imams (Arabs, Pakistani, Indonesians) blaming the West and non-Muslims for the current woes the Islamic world is experiencing.
All these hatred are fueling the IS recruiting machine. They see Westerners as evil because they were exposed to that type of propaganda in their childhood.
In a study made by World Public Opinion.Org in 2009:
61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
In an ICM poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 London bombers. Forty-five percent say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments.
I am pretty sure that not all Muslims are evil but the largest and worst terrorists organizations belong the the Islamic faith. For these guys, if you are not part of Islam, then you are free game. Let's say that Muslim terrorists and their active followers only consists of 1% of the entire Muslim population, but that is still a huge number. And that is not including the sympathizers and other supporters who are actively supporting these terrorist organizations.
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You did. You said, "Btw, they already connect it to the refugee crisis"
Yes, cause they were part of the war in Syria which is the reason for people fleeing the country, the refugee crisis. Never did I write or insinuate that they are refugees themselves, which is clearly readable in what you quoted. Many people and happenings are connected to the refugee crisis without being refugees.
But it apparently turns out they are.
How so? What you quoted does not describe refugees.
Not what I quoted, what Morphling linked to directly above my comment. I never claimed to have brought the information regarding that.
BTW, update your start post. It's been more than a day, the death toll is pretty much official, and let's hope the people in critical condition come through.
We knew these guys were ISIS the moment they began the attack. As coordinated as they were, it was either ISIS, or AQAP. That ISIS was able to take three cells and pull off an attack this coordinated speaks to their improvement as a threat outside of Syria and Iraq.
We had no warnings of this happening, which is the scariest part. There was no chatter, there was no talk between the terrorists. Very likely this was an attack that had been planned for months, but they moved the timetable up after we killed "Jihadi John" as retaliation for the attack. This happened in France, also, which has been lax in its security matters for a while. Not long ago, GIGN--the French federal police counterterrorism unit--had a large restructuring, and they lost a lot of good men in the furloughs and firings.
When GIGN was forced to raid the Bataclan, the German GSG-9 and KSK were already en route. The French foreign minister had requested "assistance" from the British, and the 22nd SAS was standing-to and ready to deploy. A Marine Corps FAST team was actually IN France at the time and had received orders to prepare to move to Paris, and Marine security guards at the embassy were prepared to help Parisian police with securing the perimeter. France understands their limitations, which not every country does. They made the right plays, and had GIGN not moved when they did, the bloodbath could have been worse.
This is likely the first in a series of attacks that are shaping up. There is talk that Washington, London, and Sydney have been mentioned in chatter between ISIS cells worldwide. More to the point, this is exactly the problem with bringing in so many "refugees" from that part of the world. I know there's going to be cries of racism, or Islamophobia, but the truth is that we know ISIS is infiltrating with the refugees. This is not a case of "these people are running away from the terrorists", this is an issue of inviting the terrorists in, because they don't need to get everyone in, just enough.
But it is a fact that Muslim countries are among the most intolerant nations in the world. Even on secular Muslim countries, the level of tolerance against those that doesn't belong to the Islamic faith are tested.
Muslims countries tend to have a few things in common that make an important distinction in statements like this. They're either poor, dictatorships, or recently (within the last 50 years) incorporated into their current states. They're located in regions with a lot of instability, regardless of faith. These conditions are the breeding grounds for extremism.
For example in Malaysia, perhaps the most secular Muslim country that claims to uphold national unity over religion. On that country, laws that favor Muslims over non-Muslims exist. It's a headache to be a non-Muslim specially in legal cases where your opponent is a Muslim.
Malaysia is a Monarchy based on elections of a pool of heriditary candidates. While it's secular technically, it still has Islam as the state religion.
Apostasy which should have stucked in the middle ages is still being practiced in these countries: Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. All Muslim countries.
Actually, most of these have roots in colonialism. You know who first instituted Pakistan's anti-blasphemy laws? The British.
Also, Don't forget Germany, Poland, the Bahamas, Peru, etc, where it is illegal for various reasons
And these are just some of the examples. If you watch an Arab television show, you will see shows and commercials that depict Jews as money-grabbing and power hungry schemers (just like what Hitler and the Nazi party did in 1930s Germany). Lots of televised preaching from Imams (Arabs, Pakistani, Indonesians) blaming the West and non-Muslims for the current woes the Islamic world is experiencing.
It never takes very long for Godwin's law to take effect.
Around 30% of blacks and latinos in the US hold Anti-semitic views. Did you know that? Similar levels of anti-semitism can be found in the heavily Catholic Latin America, who, not by coincidence, are experiencing the exact same problems of North African, the Middle East and South East Asia. They have about as much violence, too. The difference is that the same disaffected people that are being extremized to radical Islam there are instead being picked up by the gangs and cartels.
All these hatred are fueling the IS recruiting machine. They see Westerners as evil because they were exposed to that type of propaganda in their childhood.
In a study made by World Public Opinion.Org in 2009:
61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
In an ICM poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 London bombers. Forty-five percent say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments.
So here is the big part missing here: why? What exactly are they agreeing or disagreeing with? What are the politics? Simplifying it to 'propaganda', which may be true in part but then you can't ignore the equal effect of western or American propaganda on our own views. Do you know why so many Muslims are anti-Israel? Is being anti-Israel the same thing as being anti-semitic? If American views were polled, would we come across as equally ignorant (the answer is yes)? When was the last time you heard about how many people were killed in an American airstrike - do you think maybe that affects their views?
but the largest and worst terrorists organizations belong the the Islamic faith. For these guys, if you are not part of Islam, then you are free game.
That's not actually true for quite a few of the organizations. Many of these terror groups are pretty specific in their political goals. I used a Latin America example earlier, but the cartels are even worse, and kill more people annually than any of the terror groups.
Let's say that Muslim terrorists and their active followers only consists of 1% of the entire Muslim population, but that is still a huge number. And that is not including the sympathizers and other supporters who are actively supporting these terrorist organizations.
Yes, a fraction of 1% is still a big number when the population you're talking about is in the billions.
What we're talking about here is IS, which isn't really Muslim so much as a death cult that's number one victim is other Muslims.
Of course they're muslims. Christians killed a whole bunch of other Christians during the religious wars of Europe too. Didn't stop either side from being Christian, from basing their ideology on Christian thought, from repressing non-Christians and from having considerable characteristics of a death cult.
Secularism and Islam have not been getting along well the last century and with the increasing radicalization of different Islamic branches, it's only getting worse.
Be specific. Secularism and Islam haven't been getting along for the last 50ish years, since the end of colonialism and from the heavy handed tactics of western powers in these countries causing instability. Just like in South America. We see the same levels of violence and instability in both places. The only difference is how it's expressed.
I'm saying this not to defend anyone committing violence, but to try and prevent the kind of ignorance of the issues that leads to responses that just drive recruitment even further, and to put these countries into perspective. Extremist Islam is a problem in the world today, but less so than Narco traffickers in our own hemisphere (who, by the way, are their own special brand of religious extremists). Muslim extremists are flashy and attention grabbing, and that drives people to irrational prejudices without an real consideration of the history or risks involved.
About the refugee issue : the perpetrators of the January attacks were all french born. I'm french. those guys were bred here.
Now a Syrian passport has been found but it is yet unsure the corpse it was found alongside to belonged really to the true owner of the passport. The passport could be just a tool for crossing borders more easyly (it may have been stolen). What is sure is that the three identified gunmen (at this hour) are all born in France.
It's the Sad truth : Young thugs, born here, gone there to raise hell, back home to raise the same hell all out of sheer stupidity.
So far, some have been french and belgiums and possibly 2 came in undercover as refugees.
This is absurd. The 'significant number' you talk about, when you combine every Muslim in every terrorist group across the entire world, makes up a fraction of 1% of the total population.
What we're talking about here is IS, which isn't really Muslim so much as a death cult that's number one victim is other Muslims.
I'm not saying that all Muslims are terrorist and I do know that IS represents a small fraction of the Muslim world. But it is a fact that Muslim countries are among the most intolerant nations in the world. Even on secular Muslim countries, the level of tolerance against those that doesn't belong to the Islamic faith are tested.
For example in Malaysia, perhaps the most secular Muslim country that claims to uphold national unity over religion. On that country, laws that favor Muslims over non-Muslims exist. It's a headache to be a non-Muslim specially in legal cases where your opponent is a Muslim.
In Iran, just recently the government implemented a policy that prevents/prohibits lots of Christians from joining and being promoted in the army.
In Pakistan, a law that punishes people who insults the Muslim prophet is used by many Muslims to settle scores with non-Muslim opponents.
Apostasy which should have stucked in the middle ages is still being practiced in these countries: Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. All Muslim countries.
And these are just some of the examples. If you watch an Arab television show, you will see shows and commercials that depict Jews as money-grabbing and power hungry schemers (just like what Hitler and the Nazi party did in 1930s Germany). Lots of televised preaching from Imams (Arabs, Pakistani, Indonesians) blaming the West and non-Muslims for the current woes the Islamic world is experiencing.
All these hatred are fueling the IS recruiting machine. They see Westerners as evil because they were exposed to that type of propaganda in their childhood.
In a study made by World Public Opinion.Org in 2009:
61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
In an ICM poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 London bombers. Forty-five percent say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments.
I am pretty sure that not all Muslims are evil but the largest and worst terrorists organizations belong the the Islamic faith. For these guys, if you are not part of Islam, then you are free game. Let's say that Muslim terrorists and their active followers only consists of 1% of the entire Muslim population, but that is still a huge number. And that is not including the sympathizers and other supporters who are actively supporting these terrorist organizations.
You're right. Muslims don't get along with any other religious groups, hell they don't even get along with each other! Sunni's and shiites kill eachother, and people say it's just the extremists that give them a bad light. On a regular basis muslims, average muslims go out and attack anyone who is not of their religion. Before the Syrian refuges were hording Europe they were coming across on small boats from Africa. I remember reading on two different occasions about people being thrown off the boats because they were not muslim. These were just muslims taking out non-muslims. These muslims don't stand out against the terrorism they support it and want to kill anyone not muslim, and then we should let these people come into our country? The arguement that christians killed each other in the holy war is so stupid, it's like saying "Well it's a phase, they'll work through it." Muslims have never gotten along with any other religion. They fight with everyone. People get mad when a Christian extremist doesn't bake a gay couple a cake but when Islamic extremists throw gays off buildings "We can't judge the whole religion by the acts of the extremists."
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@Mad Mat - I'll respond to you in full soon, but suffice it to say you make some fair point and I disagree with some.
My point about Middle East/Latin America is that they're a lot more similar than you think. They all have a history of colonialism, and many have emerged from ongoing conflicts in the 20th century. Ongoing policies (the war on drugs, the war on terror) continue to contribute to, or at least fail to suppress, the issue. IS has been repeatedly noted to operate like a cartel, as does the Taliban (which is also a major drug operation).
Also, google and read up on Narco death cults. There is a reason the violence has turned more extreme in recent years, and a large part of that is the switch from the image of the Catholic cartels to Santa Muerte.
The origins of both conflicts might vary, but what they do have in common is heavy handed western intervention during the Cold War and a large population of the disaffected. Both have conditions ripe for extremizing people, whether that's into gangs and cartels or into terror groups (which South America has as well) is entirely up to whats available.
People get mad when a Christian extremist doesn't bake a gay couple a cake but when Islamic extremists throw gays off buildings "We can't judge the whole religion by the acts of the extremists."
Dozens of LGBT people have been killed in the US by gay bashers. Christian Extremism is a lot more dangerous than you think. If you head over to countries in Africa, women and children are routinely murdered as 'witches'.
Muslims have never gotten along with any other religion.
This is definitely not true. There are plenty of examples of Muslim countries which were and are tolerant of other faiths, especially compared to Christian contemporaries. See for example the Mughals and even the Ottomans. Modern Senegal, despite being overwhelmingly muslim, is more tolerant than many Christian African countries (see for example Angola), and elected and re-elected a Catholic as their president several times.
Muslims countries tend to have a few things in common that make an important distinction in statements like this. They're either poor, dictatorships, or recently (within the last 50 years) incorporated into their current states. They're located in regions with a lot of instability, regardless of faith. These conditions are the breeding grounds for extremism.
There are a lot of poor countries in this world and there are many dictators out there, but I have yet to see an Atheist/Buddhist/Christian and other infidel terror group that operates on the same global scale as that of ISIS, the Taliban, or Al Qaeda. And these Islamic terrorists are not fighting for equality, they want people to convert to their own brand of evil Islam.
Malaysia is a Monarchy based on elections of a pool of heriditary candidates. While it's secular technically, it still has Islam as the state religion.
Doesn't change the fact it is one of the most secular Muslim countries out there (aside from Turkey), and yet biased laws that favor Muslims over non-Muslims exist.
In the United States, there are states where it is illegal for an Atheist to run for office.
And now that law is being challenged in those 7 states, and just like Same Sex Marriage -before it- will soon be abolished. Anyone who tries to argue for the abolition of anti-atheist and anti-apostasy laws in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and others would likely be meet with death. Treatment of minority views in Islamic nations are among the worst in the world.
Actually, most of these have roots in colonialism. You know who first instituted Pakistan's anti-blasphemy laws? The British.
Also, Don't forget Germany, Poland, the Bahamas, Peru, etc, where it is illegal for various reasons
I forgot to include "Death For" Apostasy. Death penalty for being an apostate in the Islamic world is still practiced by those countries I mentioned. A practice that should have stuck in the middle ages.
It never takes very long for Godwin's law to take effect.
Around 30% of blacks and latinos in the US hold Anti-semitic views. Did you know that? Similar levels of anti-semitism can be found in the heavily Catholic Latin America, who, not by coincidence, are experiencing the exact same problems of North African, the Middle East and South East Asia. They have about as much violence, too. The difference is that the same disaffected people that are being extremized to radical Islam there are instead being picked up by the gangs and cartels.
The big difference is, in the western world, if a show tried to paint Jews/Blacks/Asians/Latinos in a bad light, the people involve (producers/hosts/actors/directors) would meet public backlash/outrage and the consequences are in the form of suspension, public apology, resignation, and even cancellation. Middle Eastern TV paints Jews as evil/greedy folks and Europeans/Americans as modern day equivalent of the crusaders in the past, and this is supported by the government themselves. Hate preachers in the Islamic world are very common that they even find their opinions and views broadcasted on TV. And people asks why do these Islamic terrorists hate the western world so much? The answer is they've been exposed to that type of propaganda in their childhood.
That's not actually true for quite a few of the organizations. Many of these terror groups are pretty specific in their political goals. I used a Latin America example earlier, but the cartels are even worse, and kill more people annually than any of the terror groups.
The Taliban, Isis, and Al Qaeda are among the world's largest traffickers of opium, heroin, and other ingredients that make drugs. A huge chunk of their income comes from drugs. So yeah, they are the worst.
Yes, a fraction of 1% is still a big number when the population you're talking about is in the billions.
At least we agree on something although the 1% figure you provided is not really accurate. No one really knows what fraction of the Muslim community supports these terror attacks (could be lower or could be higher).
2007 Pew Research response to a question whether suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified (taken from wikipedia btw).
Europe:
64% of Muslims in France believed it could never be justified, 19% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.
70% of Muslims in Britain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 12% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.
83% of Muslims in Germany believed it could never be justified, 6% believed it could be justified rarely, 6% sometimes, and 1% thought it could be justified often.
69% of Muslims in Spain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.
In mainly Muslim countries:
45% of Muslims in Egypt believed it could never be justified, 25% believed it could be justified rarely, 20% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.
61% of Muslims in Turkey believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 14% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.
43% of Muslims in Jordan believed it could never be justified, 28% believed it could be justified rarely, 24% sometimes, and 5% thought it could be justified often.
28% of Muslims in Nigeria believed it could never be justified, 23% believed it could be justified rarely, 38% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.
69% of Muslims in Pakistan believed it could never be justified, 8% believed it could be justified rarely, 7% sometimes, and 7% thought it could be justified often.
71% of Muslims in Indonesia believed it could never be justified, 18% believed it could be justified rarely, 8% sometimes, and 2% thought it could be justified often.
Glad to see that majority are against it but there are still a "significant" number who thinks it can be justified. Suicide bombing that targets innocent civilians should never ever be justified.
So here is the big part missing here: why? What exactly are they agreeing or disagreeing with? What are the politics? Simplifying it to 'propaganda', which may be true in part but then you can't ignore the equal effect of western or American propaganda on our own views. Do you know why so many Muslims are anti-Israel? Is being anti-Israel the same thing as being anti-semitic? If American views were polled, would we come across as equally ignorant (the answer is yes)? When was the last time you heard about how many people were killed in an American airstrike - do you think maybe that affects their views?
The thing that you are missing from my post is that I indicated that these terrorist attack is mainly a product of the untolerance, prejudices, and religious politics that exist in Islamic countries. Blaming the west and the Jews is common in their media. When a Danish cartoonist draw a harmless picture of their prophet, many Muslims threatened him with death. When a Mauritanian essay writer, wrote about his observations of his religion Islam and what he thinks need to be changed, he was rewarded with death penalty. When a Pakistani farmer reacted negatively because no one wants to drink on the well she just drunk with just because she is a Christian, she was punished by death and her Christian village attacked by angry mobs. These are not nit-pickings, these are common day events experienced by free-thinking Muslims, apostates, and minorities in their world.
I don't even know why we are arguing about this. My statement that the "Islamic world should have a cultural revolution" is just a reiteration by many politicians, celebrities, and other people all over the world. As long as many of the untolerant views persists in their culture, then they will continue to produce these Hitler-wannabes, and these types of violent attacks would go on. In the end, it's their people that will suffer and we outsiders are becoming casualties. We shouldn't hide what is on plain sight. It's very obvious that what is driving these terrorist groups are: isolation, hatred, prejudice, and a twisted version of their religion.
Doesn't change the fact it is one of the most secular Muslim countries out there (aside from Turkey), and yet biased laws that favor Muslims over non-Muslims exist.
How is Turkey the poster country for secular Islam? What about Albania? Or Kazakhstan? Or Kosovo? I'm not sure Malaysia even cracks the top ten.
How is Turkey the poster country for secular Islam? What about Albania? Or Kazakhstan? Or Kosovo? I'm not sure Malaysia even cracks the top ten.
I did say "one of the most" tolerant. Turkey is not even the most tolerant, a case could be made for Indonesia even though the infamous Jamaah Islamiyah terror group have their base of operations there.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34814203
Three coordinated attacks in Paris, resulting in a reported 18 dead and an ongoing hostage situation.
This is not going to end well for France.
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Even the sources you cite say over 100 dead, why do you write 18? Did you miss a 0 somewhere in between?
There have already been cases of refugees identifying former IS memebers posing as refugees, so you should not assume that all refugees are opposed to IS.
The threat of terrorists using the masses to get into Europe easier is very real, and you can't always rely on official IS pictures to identify them.
Look at when the stories were updated, then look at when Highroller posted them. Then apologize.
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I think combo and Jay13x are right on the money. France did indeed have extremist Muslims long before this refugee crisis, and I don't think the people who are refugees because they're fleeing from the IS are the ones you'd first think of with regards to terrorists.
Also, not every refugee is Muslim.
Alright, let's let X equal the number of IS members posing as refugees, and let's let Y equal the total number of refugees.
What would you say X/Y equals?
We already have a thread for this in the Debate forum, Gusto. Why don't you keep it there?
Btw, they already connect it to the refugee crisis:"Immediate suspicion for the events in Paris falls to so-called returnees -- people who have traveled to Syria and Iraq and have returned, the officials said."
But it's true that they already had radical Muslims before that, of course.
In fact, that's the complete opposite of what a refugee is.
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Did not say that they were refugees...
But it apparently turns out they are.
How so? What you quoted does not describe refugees.
Studying, Working, and being Productive is bad for your MTG skills!
What we're talking about here is IS, which isn't really Muslim so much as a death cult that's number one victim is other Muslims.
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I'm not saying that all Muslims are terrorist and I do know that IS represents a small fraction of the Muslim world. But it is a fact that Muslim countries are among the most intolerant nations in the world. Even on secular Muslim countries, the level of tolerance against those that doesn't belong to the Islamic faith are tested.
For example in Malaysia, perhaps the most secular Muslim country that claims to uphold national unity over religion. On that country, laws that favor Muslims over non-Muslims exist. It's a headache to be a non-Muslim specially in legal cases where your opponent is a Muslim.
In Iran, just recently the government implemented a policy that prevents/prohibits lots of Christians from joining and being promoted in the army.
In Pakistan, a law that punishes people who insults the Muslim prophet is used by many Muslims to settle scores with non-Muslim opponents.
Apostasy which should have stucked in the middle ages is still being practiced in these countries: Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. All Muslim countries.
And these are just some of the examples. If you watch an Arab television show, you will see shows and commercials that depict Jews as money-grabbing and power hungry schemers (just like what Hitler and the Nazi party did in 1930s Germany). Lots of televised preaching from Imams (Arabs, Pakistani, Indonesians) blaming the West and non-Muslims for the current woes the Islamic world is experiencing.
All these hatred are fueling the IS recruiting machine. They see Westerners as evil because they were exposed to that type of propaganda in their childhood.
In a study made by World Public Opinion.Org in 2009:
61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
In an ICM poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 London bombers. Forty-five percent say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments.
I am pretty sure that not all Muslims are evil but the largest and worst terrorists organizations belong the the Islamic faith. For these guys, if you are not part of Islam, then you are free game. Let's say that Muslim terrorists and their active followers only consists of 1% of the entire Muslim population, but that is still a huge number. And that is not including the sympathizers and other supporters who are actively supporting these terrorist organizations.
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Yes, cause they were part of the war in Syria which is the reason for people fleeing the country, the refugee crisis. Never did I write or insinuate that they are refugees themselves, which is clearly readable in what you quoted. Many people and happenings are connected to the refugee crisis without being refugees.
Not what I quoted, what Morphling linked to directly above my comment. I never claimed to have brought the information regarding that.
BTW, update your start post. It's been more than a day, the death toll is pretty much official, and let's hope the people in critical condition come through.
We had no warnings of this happening, which is the scariest part. There was no chatter, there was no talk between the terrorists. Very likely this was an attack that had been planned for months, but they moved the timetable up after we killed "Jihadi John" as retaliation for the attack. This happened in France, also, which has been lax in its security matters for a while. Not long ago, GIGN--the French federal police counterterrorism unit--had a large restructuring, and they lost a lot of good men in the furloughs and firings.
When GIGN was forced to raid the Bataclan, the German GSG-9 and KSK were already en route. The French foreign minister had requested "assistance" from the British, and the 22nd SAS was standing-to and ready to deploy. A Marine Corps FAST team was actually IN France at the time and had received orders to prepare to move to Paris, and Marine security guards at the embassy were prepared to help Parisian police with securing the perimeter. France understands their limitations, which not every country does. They made the right plays, and had GIGN not moved when they did, the bloodbath could have been worse.
This is likely the first in a series of attacks that are shaping up. There is talk that Washington, London, and Sydney have been mentioned in chatter between ISIS cells worldwide. More to the point, this is exactly the problem with bringing in so many "refugees" from that part of the world. I know there's going to be cries of racism, or Islamophobia, but the truth is that we know ISIS is infiltrating with the refugees. This is not a case of "these people are running away from the terrorists", this is an issue of inviting the terrorists in, because they don't need to get everyone in, just enough.
Malaysia is a Monarchy based on elections of a pool of heriditary candidates. While it's secular technically, it still has Islam as the state religion.
In the United States, there are states where it is illegal for an Atheist to run for office.
Also with Muslim opponents, or pretty much any enemy. It's a terrible law, and not just because it's a theocratic one.
Actually, most of these have roots in colonialism. You know who first instituted Pakistan's anti-blasphemy laws? The British.
Also, Don't forget Germany, Poland, the Bahamas, Peru, etc, where it is illegal for various reasons
It never takes very long for Godwin's law to take effect.
Around 30% of blacks and latinos in the US hold Anti-semitic views. Did you know that? Similar levels of anti-semitism can be found in the heavily Catholic Latin America, who, not by coincidence, are experiencing the exact same problems of North African, the Middle East and South East Asia. They have about as much violence, too. The difference is that the same disaffected people that are being extremized to radical Islam there are instead being picked up by the gangs and cartels.
So here is the big part missing here: why? What exactly are they agreeing or disagreeing with? What are the politics? Simplifying it to 'propaganda', which may be true in part but then you can't ignore the equal effect of western or American propaganda on our own views. Do you know why so many Muslims are anti-Israel? Is being anti-Israel the same thing as being anti-semitic? If American views were polled, would we come across as equally ignorant (the answer is yes)? When was the last time you heard about how many people were killed in an American airstrike - do you think maybe that affects their views?
Pretty sure?
That's not actually true for quite a few of the organizations. Many of these terror groups are pretty specific in their political goals. I used a Latin America example earlier, but the cartels are even worse, and kill more people annually than any of the terror groups.
Yes, a fraction of 1% is still a big number when the population you're talking about is in the billions.
Be specific. Secularism and Islam haven't been getting along for the last 50ish years, since the end of colonialism and from the heavy handed tactics of western powers in these countries causing instability. Just like in South America. We see the same levels of violence and instability in both places. The only difference is how it's expressed.
I'm saying this not to defend anyone committing violence, but to try and prevent the kind of ignorance of the issues that leads to responses that just drive recruitment even further, and to put these countries into perspective. Extremist Islam is a problem in the world today, but less so than Narco traffickers in our own hemisphere (who, by the way, are their own special brand of religious extremists). Muslim extremists are flashy and attention grabbing, and that drives people to irrational prejudices without an real consideration of the history or risks involved.
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So far, some have been french and belgiums and possibly 2 came in undercover as refugees.
You're right. Muslims don't get along with any other religious groups, hell they don't even get along with each other! Sunni's and shiites kill eachother, and people say it's just the extremists that give them a bad light. On a regular basis muslims, average muslims go out and attack anyone who is not of their religion. Before the Syrian refuges were hording Europe they were coming across on small boats from Africa. I remember reading on two different occasions about people being thrown off the boats because they were not muslim. These were just muslims taking out non-muslims. These muslims don't stand out against the terrorism they support it and want to kill anyone not muslim, and then we should let these people come into our country? The arguement that christians killed each other in the holy war is so stupid, it's like saying "Well it's a phase, they'll work through it." Muslims have never gotten along with any other religion. They fight with everyone. People get mad when a Christian extremist doesn't bake a gay couple a cake but when Islamic extremists throw gays off buildings "We can't judge the whole religion by the acts of the extremists."
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
My point about Middle East/Latin America is that they're a lot more similar than you think. They all have a history of colonialism, and many have emerged from ongoing conflicts in the 20th century. Ongoing policies (the war on drugs, the war on terror) continue to contribute to, or at least fail to suppress, the issue. IS has been repeatedly noted to operate like a cartel, as does the Taliban (which is also a major drug operation).
Also, google and read up on Narco death cults. There is a reason the violence has turned more extreme in recent years, and a large part of that is the switch from the image of the Catholic cartels to Santa Muerte.
The origins of both conflicts might vary, but what they do have in common is heavy handed western intervention during the Cold War and a large population of the disaffected. Both have conditions ripe for extremizing people, whether that's into gangs and cartels or into terror groups (which South America has as well) is entirely up to whats available.
Dozens of LGBT people have been killed in the US by gay bashers. Christian Extremism is a lot more dangerous than you think. If you head over to countries in Africa, women and children are routinely murdered as 'witches'.
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This is definitely not true. There are plenty of examples of Muslim countries which were and are tolerant of other faiths, especially compared to Christian contemporaries. See for example the Mughals and even the Ottomans. Modern Senegal, despite being overwhelmingly muslim, is more tolerant than many Christian African countries (see for example Angola), and elected and re-elected a Catholic as their president several times.
There are a lot of poor countries in this world and there are many dictators out there, but I have yet to see an Atheist/Buddhist/Christian and other infidel terror group that operates on the same global scale as that of ISIS, the Taliban, or Al Qaeda. And these Islamic terrorists are not fighting for equality, they want people to convert to their own brand of evil Islam.
Doesn't change the fact it is one of the most secular Muslim countries out there (aside from Turkey), and yet biased laws that favor Muslims over non-Muslims exist.
And now that law is being challenged in those 7 states, and just like Same Sex Marriage -before it- will soon be abolished. Anyone who tries to argue for the abolition of anti-atheist and anti-apostasy laws in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and others would likely be meet with death. Treatment of minority views in Islamic nations are among the worst in the world.
I forgot to include "Death For" Apostasy. Death penalty for being an apostate in the Islamic world is still practiced by those countries I mentioned. A practice that should have stuck in the middle ages.
The big difference is, in the western world, if a show tried to paint Jews/Blacks/Asians/Latinos in a bad light, the people involve (producers/hosts/actors/directors) would meet public backlash/outrage and the consequences are in the form of suspension, public apology, resignation, and even cancellation. Middle Eastern TV paints Jews as evil/greedy folks and Europeans/Americans as modern day equivalent of the crusaders in the past, and this is supported by the government themselves. Hate preachers in the Islamic world are very common that they even find their opinions and views broadcasted on TV. And people asks why do these Islamic terrorists hate the western world so much? The answer is they've been exposed to that type of propaganda in their childhood.
Yeah?
The Taliban, Isis, and Al Qaeda are among the world's largest traffickers of opium, heroin, and other ingredients that make drugs. A huge chunk of their income comes from drugs. So yeah, they are the worst.
At least we agree on something although the 1% figure you provided is not really accurate. No one really knows what fraction of the Muslim community supports these terror attacks (could be lower or could be higher).
2007 Pew Research response to a question whether suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets to defend Islam could be justified (taken from wikipedia btw).
Europe:
64% of Muslims in France believed it could never be justified, 19% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.
70% of Muslims in Britain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 12% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.
83% of Muslims in Germany believed it could never be justified, 6% believed it could be justified rarely, 6% sometimes, and 1% thought it could be justified often.
69% of Muslims in Spain believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 10% sometimes, and 6% thought it could be justified often.
In mainly Muslim countries:
45% of Muslims in Egypt believed it could never be justified, 25% believed it could be justified rarely, 20% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.
61% of Muslims in Turkey believed it could never be justified, 9% believed it could be justified rarely, 14% sometimes, and 3% thought it could be justified often.
43% of Muslims in Jordan believed it could never be justified, 28% believed it could be justified rarely, 24% sometimes, and 5% thought it could be justified often.
28% of Muslims in Nigeria believed it could never be justified, 23% believed it could be justified rarely, 38% sometimes, and 8% thought it could be justified often.
69% of Muslims in Pakistan believed it could never be justified, 8% believed it could be justified rarely, 7% sometimes, and 7% thought it could be justified often.
71% of Muslims in Indonesia believed it could never be justified, 18% believed it could be justified rarely, 8% sometimes, and 2% thought it could be justified often.
Glad to see that majority are against it but there are still a "significant" number who thinks it can be justified. Suicide bombing that targets innocent civilians should never ever be justified.
The thing that you are missing from my post is that I indicated that these terrorist attack is mainly a product of the untolerance, prejudices, and religious politics that exist in Islamic countries. Blaming the west and the Jews is common in their media. When a Danish cartoonist draw a harmless picture of their prophet, many Muslims threatened him with death. When a Mauritanian essay writer, wrote about his observations of his religion Islam and what he thinks need to be changed, he was rewarded with death penalty. When a Pakistani farmer reacted negatively because no one wants to drink on the well she just drunk with just because she is a Christian, she was punished by death and her Christian village attacked by angry mobs. These are not nit-pickings, these are common day events experienced by free-thinking Muslims, apostates, and minorities in their world.
I don't even know why we are arguing about this. My statement that the "Islamic world should have a cultural revolution" is just a reiteration by many politicians, celebrities, and other people all over the world. As long as many of the untolerant views persists in their culture, then they will continue to produce these Hitler-wannabes, and these types of violent attacks would go on. In the end, it's their people that will suffer and we outsiders are becoming casualties. We shouldn't hide what is on plain sight. It's very obvious that what is driving these terrorist groups are: isolation, hatred, prejudice, and a twisted version of their religion.
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How is Turkey the poster country for secular Islam? What about Albania? Or Kazakhstan? Or Kosovo? I'm not sure Malaysia even cracks the top ten.
I did say "one of the most" tolerant. Turkey is not even the most tolerant, a case could be made for Indonesia even though the infamous Jamaah Islamiyah terror group have their base of operations there.
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