I'm not sure why you are fighting so hard to try and argue that exercise is is somehow an equal method of protecting someone against a viral infection compared to vaccination. It's not. I'm also not sure why you are derailing the thread by hounding my posts. If you want to keep talking about this, take it to PM, don't clutter up the thread
I never said it compared to vaccination; in fact, I explicitly declared vaccination to be unparalleled in its safety and efficacy. I merely feel compelled -- as a person that studies infectious diseases -- to correct your inaccuracies. The innate immune system is capable of killing viruses. Some pathogens can evade these mechanisms, but that does not mean they never work. Vaccinations are an incredibly important part of preventing infections, but they are by no means the only method. Such a viewpoint is overly reductionist and inaccurate.
Edit: Since there was no reply overnight, I'll add a short summary. You made two claims that are demonstrably false. First, you claimed that overall physical health has no effect on a person's susceptibility to infection, which is untrue (for a recent peer-reviewed example, see this paper). Second, you implied that the adaptive immune system is the only mechanism capable of preventing infection, which is untrue (see my description of the innate immune response).
My point has nothing to do with vaccinations; I simply wanted to correct inaccurate claims about the immune system. Nobody benefits from the spread of misinformation, even if it's designed to encourage a beneficial action.
Further research? How about the billion+ people that have been vaccinated over the past 200+ years? That's a sufficient sample size and timeline to expose any side effect, no matter how rare. If vaccinations caused autism, or allergies, or anything else they are blamed for, then over half the country would be autistic. Conversely, 90% of kids who die from the flu die because they were not vaccinated.
I have a hard time believing that 90% of kids died from not taking a vaccine. There has to be outliers in data and other factors that led to the death (cancer, other medical conditions, birth defects, unknown ifections). What interests me in not taking the vaccines, besides tetnus shots, is that the vaccine is not for "you". It is made in a lab that does not use your DNA for the virus to populate and die in. Thus what DNA are you receiving in the culture? I don't know or can really test if the conditions you described are caused by vaccines, but it bothers me that no tests have occured or been released by a non-benefited third party. I just want to be extremely careful what I put into my body, and advice from you or a person working for a vaccination company feels biased to me.
You can watch porn and look at hot chicks, with the added benefit of not having to listen to neo conservative partisan nut jobs spewing their nonsense.
You lack humor. Not everything is an arguement or word fight. Neo conservatism is a European thing, not here (U.S.). That name is created by liberal media nut jobs trying compare us to Neo nazis in a hidden undertone. Grow up, not everyone in the world will agree with you and it would be boring if was.
You are claiming I said something that I did not say. I said that "healthy living" doesn't make you immune to viruses, and are not a substitute for vaccinations. You can be fat, tired, dehydrated, and out of shape, if you have been vaccinated against a virus, that virus is not going to hurt you (unless you are so sick that your overall immune system is compromised, but that's a given)
No data to prove that, but being healthy and fit does prevent illness. Why you dissagree with that makes me wonder.
I wasn't talking about ones health in getting vaccinated (although it's still a pretty small variable), I'm talking about ones health not having anything to do with preventing a virus from infecting you. Healthy living cannot cause spontaneous generation of new antibodies in your system.
Completely false statement. You fight disease, fungal, and Viruses 24/7, thus you are creating ant-bodies continually. Also going outdoors, excercising, and leaving the house is a great way to exspose your system to new threats to booste imminuties. A body that lives in a bubble will suffer greatly when exposed to normal diseases the rest of us are normally fighting without notice.
I was countering Wraiths claim that instead of getting vaccinated he can avoid viral infections through healthy living, exercise, hydration, and grape juice.
So you are talikng to someone else now? Care to use names? Or are our names not worthy to you?
It might do good in the world, but in my opinion, the price is to high. If she were actively trying to stop people getting vaccinated by blocking access to doctors offices or blowing up manufacturing facilities used to make vaccines, then arrest her and lock her up.
What? Arresting is OK, but a gag order is to much? This rational gives me a head ache.
But gagging her because of her ideas, no matter how flawed? I can't get on board with that. Having a thought police state where people can be gagged and/or censored just for thinking something is not a world I want to live in.
Responses in Bold. USE NAMES WHEN YOU QUOTE. Please.
I have a hard time believing that 90% of kids died from not taking a vaccine. There has to be outliers in data and other factors that led to the death (cancer, other medical conditions, birth defects, unknown ifections). What interests me in not taking the vaccines, besides tetnus shots, is that the vaccine is not for "you". It is made in a lab that does not use your DNA for the virus to populate and die in. Thus what DNA are you receiving in the culture? I don't know or can really test if the conditions you described are caused by vaccines, but it bothers me that no tests have occured or been released by a non-benefited third party. I just want to be extremely careful what I put into my body, and advice from you or a person working for a vaccination company feels biased to me.
A couple of points on this:
1. You're not receiving anyone's DNA in a vaccine, at least not in the way you seem to be thinking about it. For viral vaccines, some type of living cell is needed to grow the virus -- remember that viruses can't replicate by themselves. For many viral vaccines, the virus is grown in chicken eggs, which is why people with egg allergies can't take many vaccines. The part responsible for making the vaccine is the virus particle itself, not the DNA from the host in which it was grown. The Washington Post has a nice infographic explaining the process for the flu vaccine, and the CDC recommends this flash tutorial. So if you're worried about being injected with DNA from another person, that's not happening.
2. You claim that no tests have been conducted by a non-benefited third party. Do you not consider peer reviewed journal articles in scientific publications to qualify? If you do, I can provide you with dozens of studies; if not, could you please tell us what type of study you would trust?
Edit: Also, to clarify a bit, the middle parts of Valarin's quote where he's talking about health having no effect on ability to fight off infection are from his discussion with me. I agree that the lack of attributions makes it difficult to follow.
I have a hard time believing that 90% of kids died from not taking a vaccine. There has to be outliers in data and other factors that led to the death (cancer, other medical conditions, birth defects, unknown ifections).
What he's saying is that 90% of children who died from the flu were not vaccinated.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
1. You're not receiving anyone's DNA in a vaccine, at least not in the way you seem to be thinking about it. For viral vaccines, some type of living cell is needed to grow the virus -- remember that viruses can't replicate by themselves. For many viral vaccines, the virus is grown in chicken eggs, which is why people with egg allergies can't take many vaccines. The part responsible for making the vaccine is the virus particle itself, not the DNA from the host in which it was grown. The Washington Post has a nice infographic explaining the process for the flu vaccine, and the CDC recommends this flash tutorial. So if you're worried about being injected with DNA from another person, that's not happening.
2. You claim that no tests have been conducted by a non-benefited third party. Do you not consider peer reviewed journal articles in scientific publications to qualify? If you do, I can provide you with dozens of studies; if not, could you please tell us what type of study you would trust?
Edit: Also, to clarify a bit, the middle parts of Valarin's quote where he's talking about health having no effect on ability to fight off infection are from his discussion with me. I agree that the lack of attributions makes it difficult to follow.
Good information to know. Thanks. "Not my DNA" are still used to create more Virus material. I am not happy about it, but will work with it cause I am awaiting to become a Federal Law Enforcement.
Glad there are studies on Vaccines, but how far back data points (years) do they go? Were they looking for the recent medical conditions when the studies began? Did they take not of vaccine creation changes/processes? Throw a couple of research articles up for us you find credible.
I think McCarthy is a symptom of a greater problem, and that she should be gagged — not in some sort of kinky sense — so that she doesn't spout her nonsense. Goodness knows that there's enough malarkey without her and her learned medical opinions.
I disagree with this immensely. Firstly, censoring someone is wholly unethical. Be it your average Joe or a star. Secondly, censoring somethign like this just lends it credence. PARTICULARLY among those who believe that there's coverups and what have you to hide the "harmful effects" of vaccinations. The way to combat this is to educate, to get a counter message out that the views she's espousing are false. You don't fight ignorance by silencing you, you fight it with education.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Alex Jones/Infowars conspiracy theory video from Youtube, in case y'all are wondering. SFW. --Senori
Only Alex Jones and Infowars would take a vaccine that effectively promises to cure drug addiction and be terrified that it "ATTACKS YOUR BRAIN!" (Protip: It doesn't). This video is a case example of the problem with the anti-vaccers. They read about things way above their heads and cherry pick details or simply get their basic facts wrong, and then contrive complicated, but incorrect, explanations.
In either case, the antibodies created by these vaccines seem to work quickly enough to seek out cocaine as it enters the system, and stop it before it crosses into the brain. This is important because cocaine's addictive properties and physiological effects are created in the brain.
"If the vaccine works, then it would block the cocaine from reaching the brain and they wouldn't feel anything," Crystal said. Though there is a worry that drug addicts would try to "out-compete" their antibodies against the drug by taking it in much larger amounts, it remains to be seen if this work-around could defeat the vaccine.
The researchers are still working to test the toxicity of these injections in animals, before they can move on to human testing. They are hoping to start trials of the active vaccine in humans within a year, Crystal said.
I was really, really amused by him talking about how he's read 'hundreds' of government white papers, especially because he seems to think that all of this is some sort of government conspiracy. Sorry, Alex, we can barely get two offices in HHS to talk to one another effectively, much less concoct an elaborate conspiracy.
It's painful how much misinformation there is out there.
Only Alex Jones and Infowars would take a vaccine that effectively promises to cure drug addiction and be terrified that it "ATTACKS YOUR BRAIN!" (Protip: It doesn't). This video is a case example of the problem with the anti-vaccers. They read about things way above their heads and cherry pick details or simply get their basic facts wrong, and then contrive complicated, but incorrect, explanations.
I think there is a difference between Alex Jones and Jenny McCarthy
Alex Jones is obviously saying what he is saying to gain celebrity/make money. Just like Rush Limbaugh/Ann Coulter, he's really in it for the book sales/$$ by shouting absurd things louder than anyone else. He's not really promoting any agenda other than his own. People like him are mostly ignored anyway, their influence is limited to the fringe who already gobble up any conspiracy theory they see as absolute truth. Trying to fight them with facts just makes them happier, as it gives them another reason to shout and sell more books.
McCarthy is already rich, already famous, and is just misinformed. Misinformation can be fought with education, and her audience will likely listen.
I think a well spoken vaccination expert who excels at public speaking would be a great guest on The View to try and share that education to the audience to help correct the misconceptions McCarthy has. I would never send anyone to try and reason/explain something with Alex Jones.
I think there is a difference between Alex Jones and Jenny McCarthy
Alex Jones is obviously saying what he is saying to gain celebrity/make money. Just like Rush Limbaugh/Ann Coulter, he's really in it for the book sales/$$ by shouting absurd things louder than anyone else. He's not really promoting any agenda other than his own. People like him are mostly ignored anyway, their influence is limited to the fringe who already gobble up any conspiracy theory they see as absolute truth. Trying to fight them with facts just makes them happier, as it gives them another reason to shout and sell more books.
McCarthy is already rich, already famous, and is just misinformed. Misinformation can be fought with education, and her audience will likely listen.
I think a well spoken vaccination expert who excels at public speaking would be a great guest on The View to try and share that education to the audience to help correct the misconceptions McCarthy has. I would never send anyone to try and reason/explain something with Alex Jones.
Oh, I absolutely agree, for the most part - Except I think McCarthy's star would have waned already if it weren't for her controversial views. She gets a lot of money doing appearances and the like for the cause, so while she isn't necessarily spouting inflammatory nonsense for money (As Jones or Limbaugh do), she definitely profits off of her position.
Her audience, however, can be reasoned with and educated, but you'd be surprised how hard it is. My wife is in her 4th year of med school (so shes been treating patients for two years in a variety of specialties during her rotations), and the stories she's told me are both surprising and unsurprising. The biggest problem is that patients come in with their minds already made up for what they want (or don't want), and they trust the internet more than their doctor.
I apologize, I meant that access to medical care varies so much. Someone needs to have a family physician and see them to get vaccines. You are absolutely right that vaccines themselves are incredibly inexpensive.
Depends. A lot of schools and community centers have a team come in to offer free vaccines. It's not terribly difficult. I mean, it's mostly white, suburban, middle-class moms who are objecting to the shot. (And even then, I'm highly skeptical of claims that it's difficult to get vaccines in America, where Indians now have higher rates of immunization than whites.)
FWIW, vaccines were, along with fluoridation, evidence of creeping communist influence according to the John Birch Society, which is now the picture for the Poe's Law page on TV Tropes. Precious bodily fluids and all. Considering vaccines actually are a collectivist endeavor (as I described above), there might actually be evidence of that.
A Doctors (Arab guy I could barely understand) opinion I got was that possible that vaccines are messing with DNA in the very long term, and wierd mutations in Human DNA are being noticed. The severe, difficult problem is figuring out what causes it? Vaccines are just one of many suspects.
I am no conspiricy guy, but if you all the vaccine and a few of us don't; you should be OK?
The problem is when people with no "special case" start not getting the vaccines. I listed a few special cases earlier. But some parents, largely because of Bob Sears, decided herd immunity would be enough to protect them. Then enough of them decided that, and herd immunity broke down.
Folks believe current medical actions to be safe and later find out on TV through class action lawsuites that "X" medical action caused "x" side affects.
*cough* *cough* In this case, the MMR-autism link, it was because Wakefield was getting money from trial lawyers (and failed to disclose it) which was among the things prompting him to tell a few lies here or there; Wakefield's paper is one of the few papers the Lancet has ever retracted.
I think vaccines are great, but how they are made is of question.What are the side effects of the ingrediants when mixed with current patient drugs, food, life style, current patient weight, and I could go on forever.
Please do. Please, list some of these ingredients and how it might interact with other factors.
I know not all news sources are "good", but a grain of truthe is still worth knowing. You just need to sift, alot.
Yeah, that grain of truth depends. The only article on whale.to (Note: I'm using whale.to as an example, not as a reliable source, ergo no Scopie's Law.) with any truth to it is an article about coercive sterilization of Indian women by IHS in the 70s, something the government even acknowledged in 1976. And...here's an article from the American Journal of Public Health on that.
Of course, the conspiracist would likely say that modern medicine suppresses this, instead of publishing it.
McCarthy is already rich, already famous, and is just misinformed. Misinformation can be fought with education, and her audience will likely listen.
Except, you know, the part where they cut your mic. It'd just be The Drs vaccine episode all over again. You know, the one Jenny was on, with Jim Sears (brother of Bob Sears) as a "neutral" authority, and basically the conclusion was "Maybe most people can have a vaccine, but your family with a serious history of autism which probably would indicate autism is hereditary shouldn't use vaccines."
Interestingly, some conspiracy site (can't remember which one) is already saying Jenny McCarthy's being set up, that her being on The View is just a ploy to discredit her. Which naturally requires the most implausible fantasy of all: That rational people have any influence on the media whatsoever.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Good information to know. Thanks. "Not my DNA" are still used to create more Virus material. I am not happy about it, but will work with it cause I am awaiting to become a Federal Law Enforcement.
Just for clarification sake, all influenza are as far as I know RNA viruses not DNA ones. Unlikely to change anything for you, but still something that stood out to me reading this.
The first time you see what happens to a person with Polio you will see these people for the fools they are. Maybe people should accept that Doctors may be a tad more educated in the field of medicine than this woman and furthermore if they want to give people a shot it is usually with good reason.
Her audience, however, can be reasoned with and educated, but you'd be surprised how hard it is. My wife is in her 4th year of med school (so shes been treating patients for two years in a variety of specialties during her rotations), and the stories she's told me are both surprising and unsurprising. The biggest problem is that patients come in with their minds already made up for what they want (or don't want), and they trust the internet more than their doctor.
You get this is many other professions. This idea that you can do a job better than someone else. It is a type of arrogance really.
Depends. A lot of schools and community centers have a team come in to offer free vaccines. It's not terribly difficult. I mean, it's mostly white, suburban, middle-class moms who are objecting to the shot. (And even then, I'm highly skeptical of claims that it's difficult to get vaccines in America, where Indians now have higher rates of immunization than whites.)
I apologize, I missed this one (which happens from time to time). There are a lot of factors that affect access to vaccines, but having actual experience in distributing them, I can tell you it's a LOT harder than you would think.
Also, American Indians are an exception, as with have the Indian Health Services section of the Public Health Service, which caters exclusively to native tribes. When there is one hospital on the res, and everyone knows and trusts that hospital, it's easy to get lots of people vaccinated.
In the city, there is often distrust between the poorer population and some of the healthcare infrastructure (as some hospitals, especially research hospitals, were fairly seedy when it came to dealing with poor or minority city-dwellers years ago).
FWIW, vaccines were, along with fluoridation, evidence of creeping communist influence according to the John Birch Society, which is now the picture for the Poe's Law page on TV Tropes. Precious bodily fluids and all. Considering vaccines actually are a collectivist endeavor (as I described above), there might actually be evidence of that.
The who society? I'm not really sure where you are going with this point.
She's not more damaging than Andrew Wakefield who as a "scientist" who presented the idea to the public.
Working in a pharmacy, I have to keep some tabs on the talk shows like Dr. Oz, The Doctors, and the View to find out what's the latest snake oil they are pitching.
Green Coffee Bean, Tart Cherry Juice, and Raspberry Ketone are some products I wished we didn't have in the supplement section, but enough demand made them appear and made me cry a little inside.
I'll admit after watching enough of them, is that some of their opinions are scientifically valid, although alot of their audience misinterpret what they are saying.
I remember on "The Doctors" they were talking about how antibiotics for the common cold are useless. (True). Most physicians overprescribe antibiotics (true, but only true because patients complain when they leave the office without a prescription; and new reimbursement rules link payment with patient satisfaction).
Then they move on to say that antibiotic courses are generally too long and you may be able to talk to your doctor about stopping your antibiotic early. This statement, while on the surface kinda true, is highly, highly dangerous. Doctors do shortcut, some regimens say 5-7 days, and others are 7-10 days; so doctors shortcut them all to 7 days. So some could be shorter, but which one is highly bacteria/antibiotic combination specific. And you don't always get a culture to know exactly what bacteria you are dealing with.
The problem is the statement makes patients question the competence of their doctor and prompts many to often make decisions without consulting their doctor. A patient may start to feel better in 3 days on the antibiotic and discontinue it, thinking "TV said I could" This is the worst outcome as the bacteria that's still there is slightly resistant to the antibiotic, which would have been killed given enough time, but now it can regrow and spread the resistance around. This means a potential worse infection the second time around and requiring stronger antibiotics.
As long as the producers don't do a vaccination episode and the other hosts shoot her down quickly, I hope it should be fine. I tend to find out what happens at the pharmacy counter when a middle-aged woman walks up to the consultation counter.
Green Coffee Bean, Tart Cherry Juice, and Raspberry Ketone are some products I wished we didn't have in the supplement section, but enough demand made them appear and made me cry a little inside.
I'm surprised the coffee enema hasn't appeared on Walgreen shelves yet.
And a new one: An Anti-Vaccination Mega-Church is linked to the latest Measles outbreak in Texas.
The latest measles outbreak is in Texas, where the virus has sickened 25 people, most of whom are members or visitors of a church led by the daughter of televangelist Kenneth Copeland
I'm surprised the coffee enema hasn't appeared on Walgreen shelves yet.
It's been around since John Harvey Kellogg was big on the autointoxication theory. The best part of waking up is Folger's in your butt.
Seriously, it was because Kellogg was a Seventh Day Adventist (and thus a vegetarian). His view that medicine should reflect Biblical tradition also led him to follow the typical anti-masturbation woo of the time; most famously, this is why most white and black American men are circumcised. Kellogg also advocated clitoridectomy, but (since apparently the practice itself isn't sadistic enough already) with phenol.
So naturally the alternative medicine crowd picks and chooses which practices of his to support. You'll still find alties who think, as Kellogg did, that eggs are the worst threat to the American diet, never mind that egg sales have been in decline since World War II, having been replaced by breakfast cereals for the most part.
Read that story on a skeptic group I belong to. Part of me wants to point out how wrong the Bible is about medicine. Another part of me is just glad the kids get their jabs now, once they realized how bad it is.
Oh, on the Arab guy mentioned earlier, the irony of the antivaccine movement in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Nigeria is that variolation (the ancestor of vaccines; they work under the same principle, but vaccines are safer) has a long history in Muslim countries.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
WAIT WAIT WAIT
coffee enemas are an actual thing!?
Oh, you'd be surprised at the crazy ideas in the days before the FDA. But you don't have to be surprised: Our fearless leaders are going retro and taking us back to that time! (It started when they refused to regulate vitamin C in the 70s. You'll note you'd have to eat like, 80 melons to get Linus Pauling's recommended daily dose of ten grams of vitamin C. Then came DSHEA, which redefined 'supplement' to include botanicals, and further deregulated the supplement industry. And now Tom Harkin...But he'll be gone soon; he's said he won't run again.)
Most people these days can't name the Surgeon General, but they can recognize Dr Oz, Andrew Weil, or Deepak Chopra. This is the milieu of modern medicine.
We need a corollary for Rule 34: "Someone has thought it had medical value. No Exceptions."
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'm not sure why you are fighting so hard to try and argue that exercise is is somehow an equal method of protecting someone against a viral infection compared to vaccination. It's not. I'm also not sure why you are derailing the thread by hounding my posts. If you want to keep talking about this, take it to PM, don't clutter up the thread
Edit: Since there was no reply overnight, I'll add a short summary. You made two claims that are demonstrably false. First, you claimed that overall physical health has no effect on a person's susceptibility to infection, which is untrue (for a recent peer-reviewed example, see this paper). Second, you implied that the adaptive immune system is the only mechanism capable of preventing infection, which is untrue (see my description of the innate immune response).
My point has nothing to do with vaccinations; I simply wanted to correct inaccurate claims about the immune system. Nobody benefits from the spread of misinformation, even if it's designed to encourage a beneficial action.
Responses in Bold. USE NAMES WHEN YOU QUOTE. Please.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
A couple of points on this:
1. You're not receiving anyone's DNA in a vaccine, at least not in the way you seem to be thinking about it. For viral vaccines, some type of living cell is needed to grow the virus -- remember that viruses can't replicate by themselves. For many viral vaccines, the virus is grown in chicken eggs, which is why people with egg allergies can't take many vaccines. The part responsible for making the vaccine is the virus particle itself, not the DNA from the host in which it was grown. The Washington Post has a nice infographic explaining the process for the flu vaccine, and the CDC recommends this flash tutorial. So if you're worried about being injected with DNA from another person, that's not happening.
2. You claim that no tests have been conducted by a non-benefited third party. Do you not consider peer reviewed journal articles in scientific publications to qualify? If you do, I can provide you with dozens of studies; if not, could you please tell us what type of study you would trust?
Edit: Also, to clarify a bit, the middle parts of Valarin's quote where he's talking about health having no effect on ability to fight off infection are from his discussion with me. I agree that the lack of attributions makes it difficult to follow.
What he's saying is that 90% of children who died from the flu were not vaccinated.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Correct. I assume he's taking that number from this CDC report from May of this year; a citation would've been helpful.
Good information to know. Thanks. "Not my DNA" are still used to create more Virus material. I am not happy about it, but will work with it cause I am awaiting to become a Federal Law Enforcement.
Glad there are studies on Vaccines, but how far back data points (years) do they go? Were they looking for the recent medical conditions when the studies began? Did they take not of vaccine creation changes/processes? Throw a couple of research articles up for us you find credible.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
I disagree with this immensely. Firstly, censoring someone is wholly unethical. Be it your average Joe or a star. Secondly, censoring somethign like this just lends it credence. PARTICULARLY among those who believe that there's coverups and what have you to hide the "harmful effects" of vaccinations. The way to combat this is to educate, to get a counter message out that the views she's espousing are false. You don't fight ignorance by silencing you, you fight it with education.
The creator of Maro's Magic 8-Ball!
Alex Jones/Infowars conspiracy theory video from Youtube, in case y'all are wondering. SFW. --Senori
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Only Alex Jones and Infowars would take a vaccine that effectively promises to cure drug addiction and be terrified that it "ATTACKS YOUR BRAIN!" (Protip: It doesn't). This video is a case example of the problem with the anti-vaccers. They read about things way above their heads and cherry pick details or simply get their basic facts wrong, and then contrive complicated, but incorrect, explanations.
Here is an article on what Jones is talking about:
http://www.livescience.com/21132-cocaine-vaccine-cure-addiction.html
I was really, really amused by him talking about how he's read 'hundreds' of government white papers, especially because he seems to think that all of this is some sort of government conspiracy. Sorry, Alex, we can barely get two offices in HHS to talk to one another effectively, much less concoct an elaborate conspiracy.
It's painful how much misinformation there is out there.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I think there is a difference between Alex Jones and Jenny McCarthy
Alex Jones is obviously saying what he is saying to gain celebrity/make money. Just like Rush Limbaugh/Ann Coulter, he's really in it for the book sales/$$ by shouting absurd things louder than anyone else. He's not really promoting any agenda other than his own. People like him are mostly ignored anyway, their influence is limited to the fringe who already gobble up any conspiracy theory they see as absolute truth. Trying to fight them with facts just makes them happier, as it gives them another reason to shout and sell more books.
McCarthy is already rich, already famous, and is just misinformed. Misinformation can be fought with education, and her audience will likely listen.
I think a well spoken vaccination expert who excels at public speaking would be a great guest on The View to try and share that education to the audience to help correct the misconceptions McCarthy has. I would never send anyone to try and reason/explain something with Alex Jones.
Oh, I absolutely agree, for the most part - Except I think McCarthy's star would have waned already if it weren't for her controversial views. She gets a lot of money doing appearances and the like for the cause, so while she isn't necessarily spouting inflammatory nonsense for money (As Jones or Limbaugh do), she definitely profits off of her position.
Her audience, however, can be reasoned with and educated, but you'd be surprised how hard it is. My wife is in her 4th year of med school (so shes been treating patients for two years in a variety of specialties during her rotations), and the stories she's told me are both surprising and unsurprising. The biggest problem is that patients come in with their minds already made up for what they want (or don't want), and they trust the internet more than their doctor.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Depends. A lot of schools and community centers have a team come in to offer free vaccines. It's not terribly difficult. I mean, it's mostly white, suburban, middle-class moms who are objecting to the shot. (And even then, I'm highly skeptical of claims that it's difficult to get vaccines in America, where Indians now have higher rates of immunization than whites.)
FWIW, vaccines were, along with fluoridation, evidence of creeping communist influence according to the John Birch Society, which is now the picture for the Poe's Law page on TV Tropes. Precious bodily fluids and all. Considering vaccines actually are a collectivist endeavor (as I described above), there might actually be evidence of that.
How would that make any sense whatsoever?
Yes, but you're just injecting a viral protein. No DNA or RNA involved.
The problem is when people with no "special case" start not getting the vaccines. I listed a few special cases earlier. But some parents, largely because of Bob Sears, decided herd immunity would be enough to protect them. Then enough of them decided that, and herd immunity broke down.
*cough* *cough* In this case, the MMR-autism link, it was because Wakefield was getting money from trial lawyers (and failed to disclose it) which was among the things prompting him to tell a few lies here or there; Wakefield's paper is one of the few papers the Lancet has ever retracted.
Please do. Please, list some of these ingredients and how it might interact with other factors.
Yeah, that grain of truth depends. The only article on whale.to (Note: I'm using whale.to as an example, not as a reliable source, ergo no Scopie's Law.) with any truth to it is an article about coercive sterilization of Indian women by IHS in the 70s, something the government even acknowledged in 1976. And...here's an article from the American Journal of Public Health on that.
Of course, the conspiracist would likely say that modern medicine suppresses this, instead of publishing it.
Except, you know, the part where they cut your mic. It'd just be The Drs vaccine episode all over again. You know, the one Jenny was on, with Jim Sears (brother of Bob Sears) as a "neutral" authority, and basically the conclusion was "Maybe most people can have a vaccine, but your family with a serious history of autism which probably would indicate autism is hereditary shouldn't use vaccines."
Interestingly, some conspiracy site (can't remember which one) is already saying Jenny McCarthy's being set up, that her being on The View is just a ploy to discredit her. Which naturally requires the most implausible fantasy of all: That rational people have any influence on the media whatsoever.
On phasing:
Just for clarification sake, all influenza are as far as I know RNA viruses not DNA ones. Unlikely to change anything for you, but still something that stood out to me reading this.
You get this is many other professions. This idea that you can do a job better than someone else. It is a type of arrogance really.
I apologize, I missed this one (which happens from time to time). There are a lot of factors that affect access to vaccines, but having actual experience in distributing them, I can tell you it's a LOT harder than you would think.
Also, American Indians are an exception, as with have the Indian Health Services section of the Public Health Service, which caters exclusively to native tribes. When there is one hospital on the res, and everyone knows and trusts that hospital, it's easy to get lots of people vaccinated.
In the city, there is often distrust between the poorer population and some of the healthcare infrastructure (as some hospitals, especially research hospitals, were fairly seedy when it came to dealing with poor or minority city-dwellers years ago).
The who society? I'm not really sure where you are going with this point.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Working in a pharmacy, I have to keep some tabs on the talk shows like Dr. Oz, The Doctors, and the View to find out what's the latest snake oil they are pitching.
Green Coffee Bean, Tart Cherry Juice, and Raspberry Ketone are some products I wished we didn't have in the supplement section, but enough demand made them appear and made me cry a little inside.
I'll admit after watching enough of them, is that some of their opinions are scientifically valid, although alot of their audience misinterpret what they are saying.
I remember on "The Doctors" they were talking about how antibiotics for the common cold are useless. (True). Most physicians overprescribe antibiotics (true, but only true because patients complain when they leave the office without a prescription; and new reimbursement rules link payment with patient satisfaction).
Then they move on to say that antibiotic courses are generally too long and you may be able to talk to your doctor about stopping your antibiotic early. This statement, while on the surface kinda true, is highly, highly dangerous. Doctors do shortcut, some regimens say 5-7 days, and others are 7-10 days; so doctors shortcut them all to 7 days. So some could be shorter, but which one is highly bacteria/antibiotic combination specific. And you don't always get a culture to know exactly what bacteria you are dealing with.
The problem is the statement makes patients question the competence of their doctor and prompts many to often make decisions without consulting their doctor. A patient may start to feel better in 3 days on the antibiotic and discontinue it, thinking "TV said I could" This is the worst outcome as the bacteria that's still there is slightly resistant to the antibiotic, which would have been killed given enough time, but now it can regrow and spread the resistance around. This means a potential worse infection the second time around and requiring stronger antibiotics.
As long as the producers don't do a vaccination episode and the other hosts shoot her down quickly, I hope it should be fine. I tend to find out what happens at the pharmacy counter when a middle-aged woman walks up to the consultation counter.
I'm surprised the coffee enema hasn't appeared on Walgreen shelves yet.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/23/texas-measles-outbreak/2693945/
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
It's been around since John Harvey Kellogg was big on the autointoxication theory. The best part of waking up is Folger's in your butt.
Seriously, it was because Kellogg was a Seventh Day Adventist (and thus a vegetarian). His view that medicine should reflect Biblical tradition also led him to follow the typical anti-masturbation woo of the time; most famously, this is why most white and black American men are circumcised. Kellogg also advocated clitoridectomy, but (since apparently the practice itself isn't sadistic enough already) with phenol.
So naturally the alternative medicine crowd picks and chooses which practices of his to support. You'll still find alties who think, as Kellogg did, that eggs are the worst threat to the American diet, never mind that egg sales have been in decline since World War II, having been replaced by breakfast cereals for the most part.
Read that story on a skeptic group I belong to. Part of me wants to point out how wrong the Bible is about medicine. Another part of me is just glad the kids get their jabs now, once they realized how bad it is.
Oh, on the Arab guy mentioned earlier, the irony of the antivaccine movement in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Nigeria is that variolation (the ancestor of vaccines; they work under the same principle, but vaccines are safer) has a long history in Muslim countries.
EDIT: Afghanistan, not Iran.
On phasing:
coffee enemas are an actual thing!?
Oh, you'd be surprised at the crazy ideas in the days before the FDA. But you don't have to be surprised: Our fearless leaders are going retro and taking us back to that time! (It started when they refused to regulate vitamin C in the 70s. You'll note you'd have to eat like, 80 melons to get Linus Pauling's recommended daily dose of ten grams of vitamin C. Then came DSHEA, which redefined 'supplement' to include botanicals, and further deregulated the supplement industry. And now Tom Harkin...But he'll be gone soon; he's said he won't run again.)
Most people these days can't name the Surgeon General, but they can recognize Dr Oz, Andrew Weil, or Deepak Chopra. This is the milieu of modern medicine.
We need a corollary for Rule 34: "Someone has thought it had medical value. No Exceptions."
On phasing: