Oh it absolutely was as well when I got it - just when people categorized them - like school counselors and such, they presented it as an alternative to an MBA to get a MSHRM since the applications overlap to a degree.
(And to be fair on my college GPA - I did cheat with some crowdsourcing [in 80's means] on my English type courses - probably deserved a mid 3 - since I would basically just use my (at the time - it's still here, but mostly topical - gaming I'm still near photo with, names I can barely remember now...) near photographic memory to plagiarize practice from my study groups and the like to use for testing in those classes.... and flat out get others to do 90% of my English work...)
I voted b/w top 2- and 5%. I've always scored preposterously high on aptitude tests and my IQ places me around there in relation to the nation. But I don't think I'm top 2% material because I always assume there's someone better/smarter than me out there. And with a population as large as MTGS, I assume there are many.
Granted, I could discuss for days the meaning of intelligence or the validity of IQ tests so . . .
EDIT: As for degrees, I'm majoring in Psychology, Spanish, and French currently.
Okay, I'm going to address this since it's been mentioned throughout the thread.
IQ tests, ACT/SAT, and the like are NOT barometers to measure intellectual capabilities.
In they end, they are largely domain knowledge. They can be studied and practiced for, making them only superficially different from a game of Trivial Pursuit.
A properly administered IQ test actually has timing factors and the like to preclude that and a rapidly varying pool of questions that are intentionally similarly caged to catch memorizers versus thinkers.
I would agree they focus on a limited degree of intellect, but studying for an IQ test is a very limited proposition. Especially on like the spacial reasoning sections.
In my life I have consistently scored between two and three standard deviations above the norm. (or between 2 and 3 sigma) which places me at about 5% on the lower bound and 1% on the upper bound.
From the totality of factors, I would actually place myself around the 2% of the general populace mark.
But so what? Others here, out of their humility appear to be under-estimating their IQ. But I don't think this is even necessary.
I mean say I really was in the top 2%? What does that even mean? It means statistically, there are more than 6 million people in the United States alone smarter than I. It means that in the world, there are approximately 120 million people with higher mental faculties than I. It means that I'm of comparable IQ with a great deal more.
Chances are if you're a college educated person working a white collar job that employs active use of your mental faculties, you're probably already in the upper percentiles.
But all that has to do with the general populace. I have no idea where the IQ of the average MTGS poster is.
What I can deduce however is that we here at MTGS are most definitely a cut above the normal populace. For one thing, people who are mentally retarded (I mean that in the clinical sense) do not post on MTGS.
It's just not likely that people who have down syndrome, suffer mental retardation, or other serious cognitive deficits would find their way to a forum that celebrates a strategy game.
IQ is distributed among the general population along a bell curve.
By filtering off mentally challenged individuals, you're cutting off entire parts of the bell curve. In fact, I'm going to go off on a limb and conservatively suggest that those who are one standard deviation below the bell curve in IQ probably wouldn't find magic enjoyable.
They would probably find the rules and strategic thinking taxing.
If the mtgs community precludes those people too, that means that statistically speaking, MTGS only includes people from lower 36% percentile in IQ onwards. Even that is probably too conservative of a guess.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
If the mtgs community precludes those people too, that means that statistically speaking, MTGS only includes people from lower 36% percentile in IQ onwards. Even that is probably too conservative of a guess.
Which would mean that those of us placing ourselves at the bottom is probably even more accurate. Because the poll asks us how intelligent we think we are in comparison to other MTGS members.
So if you believe this forum only houses people who exist on a spectrum above the top 36% of people in the world, then people like myself are especially on the low tier of intelligence. As I am not college educated, am a consistently lower class citizen who's not even close to earning even $15,000 a year which the Government deems as the poverty level. I post advice threads about drug related drama that most well adjusted people never even have to worry about in their entire lives.
Although some of these members may just be humble, I can assure you I am a complete failure at life. lol. The fact that I can play a Strategy Game moderately well does not lend itself useful in the real world.
Although that probably explains why I get infracted so often for little things. I can't veil my insults or spam as well as some of the more educated people here. It's probably a miracle that I've lasted as long as I have.
I would actually say it has more to do with personality than ability. Pretty much anyone can learn a given ability - but if someone doesn't want to learn or doesn't have the right attitude, it'll never sink in.
I would disagree with this point. In my opinion this is a common misconception held by the very bright, however some people have mental limits that hard work is unable to overcome.
I agree that good attitude will take you further than bad attitude, and hard working dunces can enjoy greater academic success than the lazy genius, but mental acumen has its limits and that is hard for someone who is 'gifted' and finds learning complicated concepts very easy to comprehend that others may find it hard, instead attributing their failure to laziness or bad attitude, when in fact it might simply be that the concepts are too complicated (likely also badly communicated) for the learner.
Although that probably explains why I get infracted so often for little things. I can't veil my insults or spam as well as some of the more educated people here. It's probably a miracle that I've lasted as long as I have.
Okay, srsbsns mode for a moment: Speaking as a moderator, we actually don't like people who veil flaming/spam in such a way that it tiptoes the line but doesn't go over. It's not a good thing that some people are good at that.
I would disagree with this point. In my opinion this is a common misconception held by the very bright, however some people have mental limits that hard work is unable to overcome.
Just to expand on it, here's a real-life example. I'm very good at math. Higher-level math is just plain intuitive to me. Now, a friend of mine who's very intelligent in his own right is also the kind of guy who sees calculus as some kind of magical mystical voodoo. I've walked him through really basic derivatives/integrals, and while he understands some of the processes on a purely mechanical level, he simply doesn't seem able to get the underlying concepts. And it's not a strike against him, either—like I said, he's very smart, just in different areas than me (for instance, he can analyze literature far better than I can). There's no one single linear "intelligence" scale. There are a whole bunch of different areas that you can rank very differently in.
I voted top 2%, I really don't think it's a stretch. I'm much more cerebral and intellectual than the vast majority of people I know/encounter (particularly on this website). Call me arrogant, but It's what I honestly believe.
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I voted top 2%, I really don't think it's a stretch. I'm much more cerebral and intellectual than the vast majority of people I know/encounter (particularly on this website). Call me arrogant, but It's what I honestly believe.
So would you agree that you are actually the only one of the 30% who voted top 2% that is actually top 2%, and that you are smarter than the rest of the 30% who voted accordingly?
It's very interesting how many high-intelligence people suffer OCD type traits as well as a degree of empathy towards other peoples moods, it probably explains the higher than average suicide rates at top universities.
I'm no psychologist, but i'd imagine the insane workload combined with high demand to meet unrealistic expectations is much more of a relevant factor.
I voted myself in the 30-40% I generally feel more intelligent than most people but there are certainly other more intelligent people out there. I can't imagine that more than two or three of the people who voted themselves in the top 2% are actually in that percentile, I reckon most of those people are actually in a fairly low percentile with extremely inflated egos.
I can't imagine that more than two or three of the people who voted themselves in the top 2% are actually in that percentile, I reckon most of those people are actually in a fairly low percentile with extremely inflated egos.
I think it's more likely people are voting based on the assumption that the MTGS community has the same spread of intelligence as the whole population, and basing their voting on that. What this seems to indicate to me, is that a lot of the MTGS people are very bright compared to the whole population. Some may have inflated opinions of themselves, but that still doesn't necessarily follow that they are in the lower percentiles.
I don't feel stupid when I read things on this site, but I'm not comfortable saying I'm more intelligent than anyone until I meat them in person and understand them.
Intelligence draws heavily on experience, and everyone has experienced different things than I have. It doesn't take a lot of humility to understand that you can't just guess the answer to a question like that with your gut.
Also, you can be sharp as a tack one day and dumb as a brick the next... I've seen some stupid stuff come out of the mouths of people I respect. It happens.
I think it's more likely people are voting based on the assumption that the MTGS community has the same spread of intelligence as the whole population, and basing their voting on that. What this seems to indicate to me, is that a lot of the MTGS people are very bright compared to the whole population. Some may have inflated opinions of themselves, but that still doesn't necessarily follow that they are in the lower percentiles.
Really? After all the Mind Rots we're probably scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
Interesting. You practically for all intents and purposes described my situation with the exception of your 3rd point which to me became more of a disadvantage than a positive that you seem to have turned it into, although luckily I fixed it as I grew to adulthood.
This is probably getting off-topic so I make take it up with you via PM if that's ok.
Oversensitivty is a side effect of being an empathic person. I don't think it's necessarily a by-product of intelligence so much as the result of being picked on or otherwise being the subject to mood swings in other people, and for me it was a developed trait to avoid angering parents/other kids.
It's very interesting how many high-intelligence people suffer OCD type traits as well as a degree of empathy towards other peoples moods, it probably explains the higher than average suicide rates at top universities.
I'm no psychologist, but i'd imagine the insane workload combined with high demand to meet unrealistic expectations is much more of a relevant factor.
I'd just add that, as above, feelings of being alienated, separation anxiety (school is rough for people who've never lived away from home) and high levels of stress due to what Rivaltuna said.
I wouldn't imagine being intelligence is much of a factor other than that intelligent people tend to be unhappier than the average person, which complicates things, and its worse for nerds who don't develop as much of a social safety net.
I think it's more likely people are voting based on the assumption that the MTGS community has the same spread of intelligence as the whole population, and basing their voting on that. What this seems to indicate to me, is that a lot of the MTGS people are very bright compared to the whole population. Some may have inflated opinions of themselves, but that still doesn't necessarily follow that they are in the lower percentiles.
I wouldn't say Magic Players are, on the whole, are much more intelligent than the general population. We skew nerdy (obviously), but even nerds aren't as intelligent as they think. Most nerds I know are in the above average range - but not brilliant. And many of the ones I thought were smarter than me simply dead-ended after college. I would say there are far more nerds working retail or in low paying salary jobs than there are working in the hard sciences or just being successful. It is because of this that probably put myself a little higher than I should have, but not by more than 5%, I think. It's why I've said that intelligence by itself is meaningless. Without both a drive and a social ability, rarely does intelligence go anywhere. All the super-successful nerds out there have ambition and charisma to go with their brains.
I would disagree with this point. In my opinion this is a common misconception held by the very bright, however some people have mental limits that hard work is unable to overcome.
I agree that good attitude will take you further than bad attitude, and hard working dunces can enjoy greater academic success than the lazy genius, but mental acumen has its limits and that is hard for someone who is 'gifted' and finds learning complicated concepts very easy to comprehend that others may find it hard, instead attributing their failure to laziness or bad attitude, when in fact it might simply be that the concepts are too complicated (likely also badly communicated) for the learner.
You may be right that I'm overestimating people, but I was referring to otherwise intelligent people putting limits on themselves. I've seen way too many people put up barriers the moment something gets difficult and declaring it 'impossible', when in reality if they didn't stress themselves out over it they are capable of doing it. It's frustrating for me watching someone put up mental barriers on themselves and simply saying 'they can't do it' without really trying. That's what I was referring to, not that 'anyone can learn anything' - although I'd like to believe with enough time and reasonable goals most people could learn just about anything. And I'm not talking about quantum physics, either, I'm talking about practical job skills. There is no reason an otherwise mildly intelligent person can't learn accounting.
The ability to handle stress is hugely important, and many people can't handle having any real responsibility. Which is why, as I stated above, so many of the nerds I know ended up working retail of low-end or dead-end jobs (I'm NOT including the people who actually enjoy the job they are in).
Although again, you are correct - I've noticed I do tend to have unrealistically high expectations of people. Just because I can learn something quickly doesn't mean everyone else will, and it's a frequent frustration with friends who aren't quite as adept at picking up skills as I am.
[BAAAAAH - hit back by accident (via delete key) just making a short post instead of the medium one I was working on]
Jay13x: You touched on but didn't absolutely say the largest factor IMO - which does come from the background you mentioned largely (Although mine was hunky-dory at home, my genetic oddity always made me feel like an outsider so I had a tough childhood at school [now that I'm an adult though, I know how slight noticing such is - and how many people aren't bothered - wife actually noticed it day one for example]) - and that is SELF CRITICALITY.
I, and I imagine you, and I know one of the brighter (I'd label him the brightest personally - Morgan) people around here absolutely does it - we both absolutely continue to look at everything and continue to absorb more information on topics and things to continue to improve our views and methodologies of such rather than just getting stuck into a single mindset or following a pack mentality.
Additionally: I will say the last point you made Jay13x is something I absolutely can relate to, teaching for me has always been a nightmare - since I get everything so quickly and my brain likes to order everything one way in my brain once it knows something - which leads to "I don't get that" being me repeating the same exact thing by rote pretty much, and then getting annoyed once the next request comes as it invariably does.
It's ironic in fact, since I'm so flexible on my own opinions of methodology, but when asked to teach or explain I hone in on one only - any other way is wrong.
FWIW: I wouldn't read too much into the percent claiming they're in the top 2%, because it's very easy the way this poll is set up to miss the part where it's in the MTGS community and not the general population (yes, even if you're really bright). I'd bet a lot of folks on this site really do fall in the top few percent of the general population.
I didn't miss it, but voted top 2% anyway, because hey, I have absolutely no way of knowing where I fall on this site. There are some extremely bright individuals and some, well, less so. I haven't counted the users or done a study, any guess I could hazard is going to be totally disconnected from reality (I know where I stand in the general population, but this isn't the general population), so I might as well stroke my own ego
Jay13x: You touched on but didn't absolutely say the largest factor IMO - which does come from the background you mentioned largely - and that is SELF CRITICALITY.
Haha, I felt it was a little to self-aggrandizing to talk about actually having self-reflective qualities. I do agree that is a major part of it, and since you opened the door I'll talk about it a bit.
I have two very divergent impulses that are constantly at war with one another.
The first is my pathological fear of being weak. Not strength-wise, but as a person. As a little kid I taught myself to ride a bike because I didn't want anyone to see me fail. That fear came from both being socially awkward and teased mercilessly in school, and from home where, to make a long story short, I began to have a bit of a complex about being considered worthless. These feelings weren't helped by being moved to Catholic school, where in a class of 30 I was definitely the most intelligent person, but where kids are far, far crueler than public school. Self-reflection and an acute awareness of my mistakes are traits I inherited from these things as part of how I tried to improve myself. This didn't turn around for me until high school.
In high school several things went right for me over the course of a couple years that turned my attitude on life around. The first was the recognition that girls could actually find me attractive - after having no chance with any girl my age for the years I was in Catholic school. The thing that finally changed me was the realization that while I would never be the best at anything, I was better than most people at most things - and someone who could completely outclass me in something could usually only do that in one specific area (In retrospect, a lot of problems I had with friends as a kid may stem from the fact that I was a sore sport when I would lose - not realizing I was usually better than them at most other things. But for me, I could only ever think about my failings). It also helped that I was both a Firefighter and an Artist by my Junior year, which meant by the end of High School I had no trouble getting dates. Being involved in so many diverse activities - and doing well in all of them - is what really changed me.
The second is my ego (in a layman's sense), where after years of thinking very little of myself, suddenly I was more or less on top. It took until the end of High School to get it mostly under control, and the humbling event of very nearly being killed in fatal car crash to get it more or less under control. It was about that point that I can safely say I had developed a sense of self-confidence and certain knowledge that I could take anything the world has to throw at me. I think balancing the extreme self-reflection and criticality with a very sure confidence in myself is what made me a strong person without being overly arrogant (although I will admit to a good amount of arrogance).
I, and I imagine you, and I know one of the brighter (I'd label him the brightest personally - Morgan) people around here absolutely does it - we both absolutely continue to look at everything and continue to absorb more information on topics and things to continue to improve our views and methodologies of such rather than just getting stuck into a single mindset or following a pack mentality.
I've never been much of a follower. My friends jokingly refer to me as the 'Alpha'. I never realized it as a kid, but looking back I was always able to project a sense of confidence in what I was doing, to the point where people I considered better than me (in most ways) would follow my lead.
A large part of that, and this is something I realized later, was that I would take the best personality traits of my friends and begin mimicking them. I wasn't outgoing enough so I started mimicking a good friend of mine who didn't seem to care what others thought of him. I admired the self-assurance of another friend and started mimicking how he would respond to a question, rather than equivocating. It would be an act for me - but when I acted that way long enough it became part of who I actually was.
A little bit of confidence and a whole lot of bull**** will get you everywhere, apparently. It's part of the reason I don't value intelligence as highly anymore - anyone can appear to be smart - but I've found much, much fewer people can back that up.
Additionally: I will say the last point you made Jay13x is something I absolutely can relate to, teaching for me has always been a nightmare - since I get everything so quickly and my brain likes to order everything one way in my brain once it knows something - which leads to "I don't get that" being me repeating the same exact thing by rote pretty much, and then getting annoyed once the next request comes as it invariably does.
It's ironic in fact, since I'm so flexible on my own opinions of methodology, but when asked to teach or explain I hone in on one only - any other way is wrong.
Lol, GMing for my friends can get tiresome, because I subconsciously expect them to have an intuitive grasp for systems like I do - and I expect them to be able to reason out an answer when the connections aren't as obvious as I think. This trait, more than anything, is probably the source of much of my jerkiness in real life.
FWIW: I wouldn't read too much into the percent claiming they're in the top 2%, because it's very easy the way this poll is set up to miss the part where it's in the MTGS community and not the general population (yes, even if you're really bright). I'd bet a lot of folks on this site really do fall in the top few percent of the general population.
I didn't miss it, but voted top 2% anyway, because hey, I have absolutely no way of knowing where I fall on this site. There are some extremely bright individuals and some, well, less so. I haven't counted the users or done a study, any guess I could hazard is going to be totally disconnected from reality (I know where I stand in the general population, but this isn't the general population), so I might as well stroke my own ego
It does make sense that an intellectual game would attract more than an average number of high IQ people. I'm willing to bet that the intelligence spread would be rather hard to measure. It's not like we are talking about IQ 130 vs 140. We're talking about 130 vs 131 type scenarios.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
It does make sense that an intellectual game would attract more than an average number of high IQ people. I'm willing to bet that the intelligence spread would be rather hard to measure. It's not like we are talking about IQ 130 vs 140. We're talking about 130 vs 131 type scenarios.
We have to also ask what we mean by intelligence, especially considering a few points about theories on the nature of intelligence, Flynn Effect, and ect. That and the overall generation for wisdom. Proverbs 4:7 and Proverbs 26:11 comes into play heavily here.
There's also other aspects that are rather intriguing, the role of nature and nurture. Take for example BS, who by any measure is an intelligent and gifted young man, and Teia who is equally as intelligent and gifted young woman. Each have their own separate experiences and ways of seeing the world and spheres of expertise given the nature of their interests and personal histories. The debate area is one such strategy game, an ongoing one at that each with interesting effects when watching how education and personal histories play out. It is fun to watch those differences come to play there. And that's where individualism matters more than the statistics, we are defined by our relationships and the choices we make.
There are just some fun people to watch go at each other, Teia vs. BS and Vaclav vs. mystery45. All of which are experienced and educated, but their own personal preferences and methods and strategy all define them and what they can teach others and have.
The rivalries, the great game, the grand strategy, the stories. There's so much "there" that goes into a good game than intelligence and measuring it.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
cant say im on top, thats too hipster (plus i dont want to be sarcastic.. thats more of a hipster attitude and it kinda suck for me if i do it), so maybe im at 50%, Im a normal person, i play a lot of magic and work at night.. i do sports before i go to work... so physical + mental attribute. i guess.... only I guessed it. LOL
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A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
When I was in high school and college, I fancied myself highly intelligent, if lazy. Why not? I consistently landed 99th percentile in various official intelligence and aptitude tests, college entrances, and med school entrance exams. So, if we were to take this poll at that stage in my life, I can genuinely claim being at the top 2 percent, if not top 1%.
As I grew older, i began to work with people who makes me look and feel like crap. I'm talking jaw-dropping, holy bajeesus, he/she's effing smart. I'm the trained chimp surrounded by guys in labcoats.
These days, I consider myself slightly above average, and I'm not sure if that's just the level of education talking.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Man....there's alot of geniuses in here. Why don't you guys spend more time curing cancer or creating the longer lasting lightbulb than play magic? Cause surely, all you 2%ers could be doing SO much good for society instead of turning small pieces of animated cardboard sideways and ******ing at the long face of your acne scarred virgin opponent.
But I digress. I answered that I'm smarter than about 40% of the nation. Why? Because roughly 40% of the nation falls into the following categories:
Hill folk
Uneducated
Too bored to BECOME educated
Gas station employed
And just DUMB.
Enizzle. The cream of the crop when it comes to being just intelligent enough to put on my own clothes, but not intelligent enough to understand Panoptic Mirror.
The warning for censor evasion has been overturned, however this post reads in a negative and somewhat antagonistic way that sends it into trolling territory. Infraction issued.
- Teia
Even some stuff like http://www.businessmanagementdaily.com/1294/mba-or-mshrm-five-questions-to-help-you-decide aren't rare to come up in searches. It's absolutely separate, but the overlap exists.
(And to be fair on my college GPA - I did cheat with some crowdsourcing [in 80's means] on my English type courses - probably deserved a mid 3 - since I would basically just use my (at the time - it's still here, but mostly topical - gaming I'm still near photo with, names I can barely remember now...) near photographic memory to plagiarize practice from my study groups and the like to use for testing in those classes.... and flat out get others to do 90% of my English work...)
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Granted, I could discuss for days the meaning of intelligence or the validity of IQ tests so . . .
EDIT: As for degrees, I'm majoring in Psychology, Spanish, and French currently.
IQ tests, ACT/SAT, and the like are NOT barometers to measure intellectual capabilities.
In they end, they are largely domain knowledge. They can be studied and practiced for, making them only superficially different from a game of Trivial Pursuit.
I would agree they focus on a limited degree of intellect, but studying for an IQ test is a very limited proposition. Especially on like the spacial reasoning sections.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
URWTwin
XAffinity
From the totality of factors, I would actually place myself around the 2% of the general populace mark.
But so what? Others here, out of their humility appear to be under-estimating their IQ. But I don't think this is even necessary.
I mean say I really was in the top 2%? What does that even mean? It means statistically, there are more than 6 million people in the United States alone smarter than I. It means that in the world, there are approximately 120 million people with higher mental faculties than I. It means that I'm of comparable IQ with a great deal more.
Chances are if you're a college educated person working a white collar job that employs active use of your mental faculties, you're probably already in the upper percentiles.
But all that has to do with the general populace. I have no idea where the IQ of the average MTGS poster is.
What I can deduce however is that we here at MTGS are most definitely a cut above the normal populace. For one thing, people who are mentally retarded (I mean that in the clinical sense) do not post on MTGS.
It's just not likely that people who have down syndrome, suffer mental retardation, or other serious cognitive deficits would find their way to a forum that celebrates a strategy game.
IQ is distributed among the general population along a bell curve.
By filtering off mentally challenged individuals, you're cutting off entire parts of the bell curve. In fact, I'm going to go off on a limb and conservatively suggest that those who are one standard deviation below the bell curve in IQ probably wouldn't find magic enjoyable.
They would probably find the rules and strategic thinking taxing.
If the mtgs community precludes those people too, that means that statistically speaking, MTGS only includes people from lower 36% percentile in IQ onwards. Even that is probably too conservative of a guess.
Or they think everyone else on MTGS is stupid.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Which would mean that those of us placing ourselves at the bottom is probably even more accurate. Because the poll asks us how intelligent we think we are in comparison to other MTGS members.
So if you believe this forum only houses people who exist on a spectrum above the top 36% of people in the world, then people like myself are especially on the low tier of intelligence. As I am not college educated, am a consistently lower class citizen who's not even close to earning even $15,000 a year which the Government deems as the poverty level. I post advice threads about drug related drama that most well adjusted people never even have to worry about in their entire lives.
Although some of these members may just be humble, I can assure you I am a complete failure at life. lol. The fact that I can play a Strategy Game moderately well does not lend itself useful in the real world.
Although that probably explains why I get infracted so often for little things. I can't veil my insults or spam as well as some of the more educated people here. It's probably a miracle that I've lasted as long as I have.
I would disagree with this point. In my opinion this is a common misconception held by the very bright, however some people have mental limits that hard work is unable to overcome.
I agree that good attitude will take you further than bad attitude, and hard working dunces can enjoy greater academic success than the lazy genius, but mental acumen has its limits and that is hard for someone who is 'gifted' and finds learning complicated concepts very easy to comprehend that others may find it hard, instead attributing their failure to laziness or bad attitude, when in fact it might simply be that the concepts are too complicated (likely also badly communicated) for the learner.
Okay, srsbsns mode for a moment: Speaking as a moderator, we actually don't like people who veil flaming/spam in such a way that it tiptoes the line but doesn't go over. It's not a good thing that some people are good at that.
Just to expand on it, here's a real-life example. I'm very good at math. Higher-level math is just plain intuitive to me. Now, a friend of mine who's very intelligent in his own right is also the kind of guy who sees calculus as some kind of magical mystical voodoo. I've walked him through really basic derivatives/integrals, and while he understands some of the processes on a purely mechanical level, he simply doesn't seem able to get the underlying concepts. And it's not a strike against him, either—like I said, he's very smart, just in different areas than me (for instance, he can analyze literature far better than I can). There's no one single linear "intelligence" scale. There are a whole bunch of different areas that you can rank very differently in.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
So would you agree that you are actually the only one of the 30% who voted top 2% that is actually top 2%, and that you are smarter than the rest of the 30% who voted accordingly?
I'm no psychologist, but i'd imagine the insane workload combined with high demand to meet unrealistic expectations is much more of a relevant factor.
I think it's more likely people are voting based on the assumption that the MTGS community has the same spread of intelligence as the whole population, and basing their voting on that. What this seems to indicate to me, is that a lot of the MTGS people are very bright compared to the whole population. Some may have inflated opinions of themselves, but that still doesn't necessarily follow that they are in the lower percentiles.
Intelligence draws heavily on experience, and everyone has experienced different things than I have. It doesn't take a lot of humility to understand that you can't just guess the answer to a question like that with your gut.
Also, you can be sharp as a tack one day and dumb as a brick the next... I've seen some stupid stuff come out of the mouths of people I respect. It happens.
Really? After all the Mind Rots we're probably scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
Oversensitivty is a side effect of being an empathic person. I don't think it's necessarily a by-product of intelligence so much as the result of being picked on or otherwise being the subject to mood swings in other people, and for me it was a developed trait to avoid angering parents/other kids.
I think Rivaltuna has a more accurate picture:
I'd just add that, as above, feelings of being alienated, separation anxiety (school is rough for people who've never lived away from home) and high levels of stress due to what Rivaltuna said.
I wouldn't imagine being intelligence is much of a factor other than that intelligent people tend to be unhappier than the average person, which complicates things, and its worse for nerds who don't develop as much of a social safety net.
I wouldn't say Magic Players are, on the whole, are much more intelligent than the general population. We skew nerdy (obviously), but even nerds aren't as intelligent as they think. Most nerds I know are in the above average range - but not brilliant. And many of the ones I thought were smarter than me simply dead-ended after college. I would say there are far more nerds working retail or in low paying salary jobs than there are working in the hard sciences or just being successful. It is because of this that probably put myself a little higher than I should have, but not by more than 5%, I think. It's why I've said that intelligence by itself is meaningless. Without both a drive and a social ability, rarely does intelligence go anywhere. All the super-successful nerds out there have ambition and charisma to go with their brains.
Edit: Sorry, Gelf - I missed this one:
You may be right that I'm overestimating people, but I was referring to otherwise intelligent people putting limits on themselves. I've seen way too many people put up barriers the moment something gets difficult and declaring it 'impossible', when in reality if they didn't stress themselves out over it they are capable of doing it. It's frustrating for me watching someone put up mental barriers on themselves and simply saying 'they can't do it' without really trying. That's what I was referring to, not that 'anyone can learn anything' - although I'd like to believe with enough time and reasonable goals most people could learn just about anything. And I'm not talking about quantum physics, either, I'm talking about practical job skills. There is no reason an otherwise mildly intelligent person can't learn accounting.
The ability to handle stress is hugely important, and many people can't handle having any real responsibility. Which is why, as I stated above, so many of the nerds I know ended up working retail of low-end or dead-end jobs (I'm NOT including the people who actually enjoy the job they are in).
Although again, you are correct - I've noticed I do tend to have unrealistically high expectations of people. Just because I can learn something quickly doesn't mean everyone else will, and it's a frequent frustration with friends who aren't quite as adept at picking up skills as I am.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Jay13x: You touched on but didn't absolutely say the largest factor IMO - which does come from the background you mentioned largely (Although mine was hunky-dory at home, my genetic oddity always made me feel like an outsider so I had a tough childhood at school [now that I'm an adult though, I know how slight noticing such is - and how many people aren't bothered - wife actually noticed it day one for example]) - and that is SELF CRITICALITY.
I, and I imagine you, and I know one of the brighter (I'd label him the brightest personally - Morgan) people around here absolutely does it - we both absolutely continue to look at everything and continue to absorb more information on topics and things to continue to improve our views and methodologies of such rather than just getting stuck into a single mindset or following a pack mentality.
Additionally: I will say the last point you made Jay13x is something I absolutely can relate to, teaching for me has always been a nightmare - since I get everything so quickly and my brain likes to order everything one way in my brain once it knows something - which leads to "I don't get that" being me repeating the same exact thing by rote pretty much, and then getting annoyed once the next request comes as it invariably does.
It's ironic in fact, since I'm so flexible on my own opinions of methodology, but when asked to teach or explain I hone in on one only - any other way is wrong.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
I didn't miss it, but voted top 2% anyway, because hey, I have absolutely no way of knowing where I fall on this site. There are some extremely bright individuals and some, well, less so. I haven't counted the users or done a study, any guess I could hazard is going to be totally disconnected from reality (I know where I stand in the general population, but this isn't the general population), so I might as well stroke my own ego
Haha, I felt it was a little to self-aggrandizing to talk about actually having self-reflective qualities. I do agree that is a major part of it, and since you opened the door I'll talk about it a bit.
I have two very divergent impulses that are constantly at war with one another.
The first is my pathological fear of being weak. Not strength-wise, but as a person. As a little kid I taught myself to ride a bike because I didn't want anyone to see me fail. That fear came from both being socially awkward and teased mercilessly in school, and from home where, to make a long story short, I began to have a bit of a complex about being considered worthless. These feelings weren't helped by being moved to Catholic school, where in a class of 30 I was definitely the most intelligent person, but where kids are far, far crueler than public school. Self-reflection and an acute awareness of my mistakes are traits I inherited from these things as part of how I tried to improve myself. This didn't turn around for me until high school.
In high school several things went right for me over the course of a couple years that turned my attitude on life around. The first was the recognition that girls could actually find me attractive - after having no chance with any girl my age for the years I was in Catholic school. The thing that finally changed me was the realization that while I would never be the best at anything, I was better than most people at most things - and someone who could completely outclass me in something could usually only do that in one specific area (In retrospect, a lot of problems I had with friends as a kid may stem from the fact that I was a sore sport when I would lose - not realizing I was usually better than them at most other things. But for me, I could only ever think about my failings). It also helped that I was both a Firefighter and an Artist by my Junior year, which meant by the end of High School I had no trouble getting dates. Being involved in so many diverse activities - and doing well in all of them - is what really changed me.
The second is my ego (in a layman's sense), where after years of thinking very little of myself, suddenly I was more or less on top. It took until the end of High School to get it mostly under control, and the humbling event of very nearly being killed in fatal car crash to get it more or less under control. It was about that point that I can safely say I had developed a sense of self-confidence and certain knowledge that I could take anything the world has to throw at me. I think balancing the extreme self-reflection and criticality with a very sure confidence in myself is what made me a strong person without being overly arrogant (although I will admit to a good amount of arrogance).
I've never been much of a follower. My friends jokingly refer to me as the 'Alpha'. I never realized it as a kid, but looking back I was always able to project a sense of confidence in what I was doing, to the point where people I considered better than me (in most ways) would follow my lead.
A large part of that, and this is something I realized later, was that I would take the best personality traits of my friends and begin mimicking them. I wasn't outgoing enough so I started mimicking a good friend of mine who didn't seem to care what others thought of him. I admired the self-assurance of another friend and started mimicking how he would respond to a question, rather than equivocating. It would be an act for me - but when I acted that way long enough it became part of who I actually was.
A little bit of confidence and a whole lot of bull**** will get you everywhere, apparently. It's part of the reason I don't value intelligence as highly anymore - anyone can appear to be smart - but I've found much, much fewer people can back that up.
Lol, GMing for my friends can get tiresome, because I subconsciously expect them to have an intuitive grasp for systems like I do - and I expect them to be able to reason out an answer when the connections aren't as obvious as I think. This trait, more than anything, is probably the source of much of my jerkiness in real life.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
It does make sense that an intellectual game would attract more than an average number of high IQ people. I'm willing to bet that the intelligence spread would be rather hard to measure. It's not like we are talking about IQ 130 vs 140. We're talking about 130 vs 131 type scenarios.
We have to also ask what we mean by intelligence, especially considering a few points about theories on the nature of intelligence, Flynn Effect, and ect. That and the overall generation for wisdom. Proverbs 4:7 and Proverbs 26:11 comes into play heavily here.
There's also other aspects that are rather intriguing, the role of nature and nurture. Take for example BS, who by any measure is an intelligent and gifted young man, and Teia who is equally as intelligent and gifted young woman. Each have their own separate experiences and ways of seeing the world and spheres of expertise given the nature of their interests and personal histories. The debate area is one such strategy game, an ongoing one at that each with interesting effects when watching how education and personal histories play out. It is fun to watch those differences come to play there. And that's where individualism matters more than the statistics, we are defined by our relationships and the choices we make.
There are just some fun people to watch go at each other, Teia vs. BS and Vaclav vs. mystery45. All of which are experienced and educated, but their own personal preferences and methods and strategy all define them and what they can teach others and have.
The rivalries, the great game, the grand strategy, the stories. There's so much "there" that goes into a good game than intelligence and measuring it.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
cant say im on top, thats too hipster (plus i dont want to be sarcastic.. thats more of a hipster attitude and it kinda suck for me if i do it), so maybe im at 50%, Im a normal person, i play a lot of magic and work at night.. i do sports before i go to work... so physical + mental attribute. i guess.... only I guessed it. LOL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
As I grew older, i began to work with people who makes me look and feel like crap. I'm talking jaw-dropping, holy bajeesus, he/she's effing smart. I'm the trained chimp surrounded by guys in labcoats.
These days, I consider myself slightly above average, and I'm not sure if that's just the level of education talking.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
But I digress. I answered that I'm smarter than about 40% of the nation. Why? Because roughly 40% of the nation falls into the following categories:
Hill folk
Uneducated
Too bored to BECOME educated
Gas station employed
And just DUMB.
Enizzle. The cream of the crop when it comes to being just intelligent enough to put on my own clothes, but not intelligent enough to understand Panoptic Mirror.
The warning for censor evasion has been overturned, however this post reads in a negative and somewhat antagonistic way that sends it into trolling territory. Infraction issued.
- Teia
Volrath the FallenB Empress GalinaU Oona, Queen of the FaeBUAgrus Kos, Wojek VeteranRW