MTG Salvation

Every single time I used to go to a prerelease, back when they were consolidated to a massive expo center in locations, I would.... see things.

Strange, unexplainable things to my eleven year old mind. (I started around the Mirrodin prerelease. Do the math.)

I would see things that I knew, even in prepubescence, were not appropriate to wear or display in public, displayed proudly on cards, swapped among friends, and shown off readily.

I am, of course, referring to anime/erotic/lolita/"girly" playmats, sleeves, card alters, and apparel. If you have ever been to a major tournament, you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. They started out pretty bad (ranging from blatantly sexualized underage anime girls drawn on land to full-on softcore pornography on the back of sleeves), but a line was drawn when my parents had to give me "the talk" after I saw a man with a barely censored sex scene publicly displayed on his shirt at the Ravnica prerelease. I believe he was a judge.

After a few years of hiatus from the game (not entirely due to the community, there are some incredibly well-socialized Magic players, and I'd be lying if I said the average engineer was any better), I began to shelter myself in friendly local stores consisting mainly of people in my own age group, unable to get their parents credit cards to buy their publicly displayed pornography. Every so often, however, I would make the trip to a convention that just happened to feature a Magic tournament, and I'd find the same garbage again. I turned 15, I started dating, and the most ironic moment of all time happened, I believe at one of the last "big-event" prereleases:

I gave my boyfriend (at the time) a small peck on the cheek goodbye, and a 250lb blob of a man told me he "didn't want to see any of that, it's not about homophobia, it's very inappropriate", blah blah blah. He sits down and begins pile shuffling his sleeves, which featured what looked like a twelve year old girl in a miniskirt flashing her panties.

I entered the tournament scene again recently, and the problem hasn't really fixed itself, especially among overweight males. Why aren't these disgusting sleeves/playmats banned from all competitive play? Will WoTC ever step in and realize that allowing this kind of behavior from the social misfits of Magic is what's keeping the hobby from becoming accepted by all genders and sexual orientations?

If you use these, give me a damn good defense as to why, and I'll listen to it. But to me, it's just misogynistic garbage that needs to be permanently removed from the world of Magic, so as not to continue making the Magic community look like a bunch of crazed neckbeards.

honestly i've never seen this....sure i've seen some anime girl sleaves and some revealing fantasy art ones...but nothing that could be deemed erotic and certinally not graphic.
i've been to many top level tournaments (Grand Prix and SCG opens) in the eastern US, Canada, and Europoe.
no offence intended but perhaps you are making a big deal out of nothing?

I'm a straight male, and I understand the alters/sleeves/mats with nearly naked women though I don't use them myself. However I find the images of VERY young cartoon girls creepy beyond belief. I don't understand why these aren't banned at events, and why anyone who gets these online isn't put on some watch list.

I think it really depends on the area honestly. I've seen some video game girl playmats and of course Lili looks pretty sexy on her new art... but I haven't seen anything too terribly "erotic." In our area people seem pretty respectful of each other for the most part, and the most IN YOUR FACE thing I ever see arew the "RTFC" sleeves.

Quote from Macabre

What worries me is...that those who use the naughty alt cards are "feeling" that while we are playing a game.


I hate to say it... but

That anti-hygiene greasy fat male you spoke of probably gets partially aroused simply by seeing/playing his deck.

And that usually kills the game for me.



edit; i although do use Vein Drinker sleeves, cause she's a bad ass.

Oh god, gross


PS: Vein Drinker has fantastic art, and that's speaking as a gay male. And yes, she is a bad ass. No official art can really be called pervy.... I mean, ffs, magic isn't anywhere near as bad as the video game industry with the whole "skimpy outfits on every girl, give her a spunky personality to make it not seem sexist, ship, print" thing.


Also, for those of you who have never seen this kind of thing, I urge you to google it, do ebay searches, whatever. Use terms like "sexy magic sleeves" "lolita mtg sleeves" "erotic mtg" "sexy mtg", etc. You will see what I'm talking about, you'll see there's a large amount of business producing them, and you'll see why it's a problem.

I'm not a fan of them and would rather people not use them, but I do always remind myself of the double standard I seem to have. We regularly play with cards which involve people being skewered, eaten alive, disemboweled, and burned to death, but it's the blatant sexuality that is "too much."

This thread gave me a chuckle. To be fair, the majority of magic players are 14-20.

It made me immediately think of this.

Quote from Zaphrasz

I'm not a fan of them and would rather people not use them, but I do always remind myself of the double standard I seem to have. We regularly play with cards which involve people being skewered, eaten alive, disemboweled, and burned to death, but it's the blatant sexuality that is "too much."

Completely true. As a society, we are repulsed by sexuality but celebrate violence, and it's terrible.

But that's something for the politics forum, because in the real world, it's not socially acceptable to wander around with a Magic deck sleeved with anime upskirt pics.

The other issue I'm pondering is how the hell you would enforce a rule prohibiting pornography/sexually charged material on sleeves.

Consider:

What is pornography?



It's impossible to define, and it's therefore impossible to make a rule that bans this kind of thing I guess I really can't blame WoTC for this, I just have to continue blaming neckbeards.

Head judges actually have the discretion to forbid certain imagery if they think it is a problem. Alters that go over the top, sleeves that are too explicit, they can require that you use something else. Most won't except in extreme circumstances.

I've seen some. Nude women hanging off of dragons, and the like. However, is that really preferable to upskirts...?

Though I agree 100% about underaged situations of the above. Repulsive.

I have seen these in both casual and tournament play repeatedly. Some people are saying they haven't, I guess it must be a regional thing. I feel that it is acceptable in casual play (provided of course that the imagery is not somehow illegal). At conventions even, I don't think that you should be able to tell people what they can and can not display provided that it is legal (conventions that are just anime / comic / etc. are not any better). At official tournaments however these things should be banned. It is no different from showing up at an all-ages poker tournament and having people face off with playboy cards. They want the game to be friendly to all types of people but I wouldn't let my kids see that kind of stuff, would you? A picture of a scantily clad warrior babe\dude? Fine. A tasteful non-sexual nude? Even that would be fine. But I agree that we seriously need to get rid of this hyper-sexual / loli / yiffy / tentacle / whatever that I keep seeing. I feel embarrassed to even be in a game with someone who has sleeves depicting an underage girl in her panties doing a sexy pose and it has happened more than a few times. It makes me want to call the cops and have them check that person's basement/computer for anything incriminating. It needs to be kept at the dinner table if anything. They're scaring away the new blood.

I don't think it happens at large tournaments that are serious. Someone had like anime girls that looked young but also sexualized for like two of his islands so I asked the judge on the oracle text for whatever it was and surely enough the judge gave him a warning and match loss when he found there to be only 4 in the deck pasted infront of blue spells and not islands.

Because poorly socialized, sexually repressed young males have a very poor sense of what is appropriate and what is not, especially in an environment that they consider "safe" (such as an even filled with other poorly socialized, sexually repressed young males).

Quote from dudebro

I don't think it happens at large tournaments that are serious. Someone had like anime girls that looked young but also sexualized for like two of his islands so I asked the judge on the oracle text for whatever it was and surely enough the judge gave him a warning and match loss when he found there to be only 4 in the deck pasted infront of blue spells and not islands.

That is encouraging. Been a while since I have been to a larger tournament, so I am glad that they are at least willing to crack down on this. I guess the thing to do is make an official complaint and hope that the judge agrees. It is rampant at FNMs where I live.

Quote from NekoOtoko

The other issue I'm pondering is how the hell you would enforce a rule prohibiting pornography/sexually charged material on sleeves.

Consider:

What is pornography?

The angle of the Infraction Procedure Guide seems to be that offensive or potentially offensive behaviour, and by extension offensive accessories, is an Unsporting Conduct infraction.
It's obviously awkward and difficult to call a judge, complain about "sexy" sleeves, argue that you feel offended, and demand a reparation.
You would have a high probability to be considered the aggressive and unsporting party, for rather good reasons:

• The opponent did nothing bad to you; the sleeves are the same for every game and every opponent.
• The sleeves don't have drawings up to the edge or other objective reasons to be prohibited.
• Bad taste is allowed and not at all unsporting.

Quote from LGTreturned

The opponent did nothing bad to you; the sleeves are the same for every game and every opponent.

With this in mind, my advice to anyone reporting inappropriate sleeves to the judge staff is to talk to a judge after your match, or outside of a match in general if you happen to see someone with such sleeves/apparel and he's not your opponent. This is a community issue and it does not have to have in-tournament consequences. It's disruptive to call a judge during a game and say "judge, my opponent is a neckbeard, and it's tilting me. please give him an infraction." The judges will also take you more seriously if they know you're not fishing for an easy win.

I see the solution to the problem to be privately reporting the offenders and letting the judges talk to them one on one outside of matches, when they have time to resleeve. We don't need to make a scene or make an announcement over the speakers before the tournament starts about what constitutes child pornography. That would make a lot of people who haven't been exposed to the problem yet feel uncomfortable and confused.

Quote from LGTreturned

It's obviously awkward and difficult to call a judge, complain about "sexy" sleeves, argue that you feel offended, and demand a reparation.
You would have a high probability to be considered the aggressive and unsporting party, for rather good reasons:

• The opponent did nothing bad to you; the sleeves are the same for every game and every opponent.
• The sleeves don't have drawings up to the edge or other objective reasons to be prohibited.
• Bad taste is allowed and not at all unsporting.

While I believe that provisions for "bad taste" and personal expression should be generous, I think that bringing blatantly offensive imagery into a tournament is unacceptable and guidelines should be drafted concerning the subject. These are images where if I wore them on a t-shirt I would be asked to leave a sit-down restaurant or toy store (I have seen people thrown out for less offensive apparel) so why would it be acceptable in our hobby?

Quote from el_pato

With this in mind, my advice to anyone reporting inappropriate sleeves to the judge staff is to talk to a judge after your match, or outside of a match in general if you happen to see someone with such sleeves/apparel and he's not your opponent. This is a community issue and it does not have to have in-tournament consequences. It's disruptive to call a judge during a game and say "judge, my opponent is a neckbeard, and it's tilting me. please give him an infraction." The judges will also take you more seriously if they know you're not fishing for an easy win.

I see the solution to the problem to be privately reporting the offenders and letting the judges talk to them one on one outside of matches, when they have time to resleeve. We don't need to make a scene or make an announcement over the speakers before the tournament starts about what constitutes child pornography. That would make a lot of people who haven't been exposed to the problem yet feel uncomfortable and confused.

Agreed one hundred percent here. I would NEVER attempt to complain during a game to a judge about this, and I'd even feel awkward about it after the match if I lost. It is indeed a community issue, and I don't think it's appropriate to win because someone offended you with their sleeves.

I don't think they should be allowed though. It's bad for the community.

I agree that these are rediculous, everytime i go on ebay looking for alters i see hundreds of basic lands with almost naked anime chicks and i think to myself, "Are there actually people who want/buy these things?" Now i am a straight young male who is engaged to a beautiful woman so i understand the desire to see beautiful girls/ centerfolds but how does that relate to magic cards? I think (and i hate to generalize) but the majority of mtg players seem to be single males who lack a lot of social/dating skills so maybe they are just trying to fill an empty part of their lives? I dont know if anything i wrote made sense lol but basically i dont feel like these sleeves and alters have a place in mtg, they are trashy, lame and dont relate to the game in anyway. Though i respect your freedom of expression and speech, i just feel like they are sleazy and embarassing to me when im scrolling ebay for alters and i have to keep minimizing the screen so my girl doesnt think im lookin at anime porn.

I'm gonna take this from the perspective of someone who's also played Yu-Gi-Oh, and a fair amount of the card arts do contain a lot of loli. Yes, most of it does get censored for overseas release, but even then, little is left to the imagination. Now consider that the target demographic for Yu-Gi-Oh is younger than Magic, and therein lies a problem, and some moral skew.

Also, at the risk of invalidating my view, I'm 20, single, and socially awkward on account of Asperger's Syndrome, and I do use lolita maid sleeves. So I would probably fall under the "neckbeard" category. I have no qualms about it and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

I am a strait male and I find them extremely creepy. Its really proof that some of these people need to have a life outside of their games and anime.

I have never met someone with the naked Lolita lands or anime upskirt sleeves that had redeeming characteristics.

I googled your examples. I did find something strange though.
I put "lolita mtg sleeves" through and got a very interesting search. Apparently the number one result is this thread! Strange indeed.

I have seen all the mainstream "erotic" sleeves that could be sold in a shop. The ladies are indeed wearing skimpy and are scantly-clad, but I haven't seen any nudity.

I know a guy that loves his anime and magic. He is not the stereotypical "neckbeard overweight unkempt social misfit" people like to throw out. He's a pretty cool dude and married to boot.
His commander deck is just about all filled out with female anime characters and they fit the card and are tasteful. You should see his "Go for the Throat"s.

I think the problem here is the eye of the beholder and ones sense of what is "decent". To each their own.

It comes down to what's considered too offensive versus what's considered to go beyond reasonable accommodation. Just because one or two people at a tournament might find certain imagery offensive, I don't think that's grounds for forbidding another player from using particular sleeves or altered cards. For example... If I find someone's sweatshirt offensive, would he have to take it off or turn it inside out? What if there's no nudity on the shirt but it promotes a band which has songs with offensive lyrics? What if the shirt is covered in cat hair and I start sneezing because I have allergies? What if someone's wearing a hat with Fidel Castro's face on it and I find communism to be offensive?...Would that give me the right to force him to remove his hat (or have a judge tell him to?). Unlikely.

See, I have a divided opinion on the topic, so I'll gladly debate the philosophy of it. While I do believe it's somewhat inappropriate to exhibit erotic artwork on card sleeves while participating in public events where younger players may be present, I still feel as though people generally tend to overreact and get offended a bit too easily by things which aren't meant, designed, or used with the intent to offend others. What we need to focus on is motive and intent. If someone does something specifically because he or she intends to offend others, they should be penalized or given some type of warning or infraction for poor social etiquette, but if not, could they really be held accountable for, or found guilty of doing anything wrong? Now I know what you're thinking... How can you possibly prove premeditation or intent to offend? Well, in all truth you can't. You can speculate, suppose, and reckon, but you can never know for certain that someone wanted to offend you unless they explicitly express said intent.

Now let's be real for a moment and each ask ourselves: Isn't it slightly odd or prude for me to get that offended by some harmless suggestive anime? Who knows, maybe I was just born with an iron stomach and have a more tolerant attitude than most people, but by the age of ten or eleven I was so desensitized to violence, sexuality, and the obvious corruption in society (because of media), that barely anything would phase me from that point on. I mean honestly, there could be plenty of more offensive things on sleeves to get all riled up about. Even if sleeve "pornography" was discouraged or banned at tournaments, would that really stop people from finding other ways of raising the bar and making their deck(s) appear more unique, intimidating, and/or distracting? Probably not. For all we know, someone out there is already designing sleeves with real life photos of severed fingers, fresh turds, dissected eyes, beheaded animals, or worse... I mean, so long as the imagery isn't evidence of a crime or crosses over into the realm of what's considered illegal to portray in art form, where does one draw the line and say "that's too offensive!"? It's purely subjective. To elaborate, while one person may be offended by movies like Visitor Q, Battle Royale, Cannibal Holocaust, or Fahrenheit 9/11 because of the violence or controversial opinions portrayed in the films, another person may be offended by the simple children's board game Guess Who because it perpetuates discrimination by encouraging and conditioning youth to visually stereotype others based on superficial appearances. Now nobody is arguing against the fact that we all have the right to be offended by something because we're naturally inclined to feel uncomfortable about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that being offended justifies chastising or censoring another person's right to freedom of expression because they have views or opinions which conflict with our own (or even those of the majority).

Should WOTC or judges at events start arbitrarily deciding what is or isn't offensive enough to be considered "inappropriate" simply to accommodate the minority group of individuals (or even a single individual) who may find certain images offensive? I mean hypothetically, if I sat down at a game and saw that my opponent had swastika sleeves on his deck, I would indeed be very offended and might mention something to a judge after the match, but I would never refuse to play again him or her, nor let it distract me from playing my game(s). Freedom of expression is a touchy gray area, so it's always hard to decide where to draw that fine line. After all, how could one assume or know with absolute certainty that such a person is even antisemitic to begin with, taking into account that the symbol design was originally a Hindu symbol called a "shakti" before the nazi's adopted it as their own?... And regardless, if someone is really that big of a douche that they wants to advertise the fact that they're racist, that's their prerogative, is it not? In fact, nobody can really do anything to stop such people from having those opinions, so unsleeving their deck or banning them from a tournament wont change who they are, how they feel, or what their social opinions are. Furthermore, before we limit what could be considered offensive to imagery on cards and sleeves, lets ask the following questions:

What if a player has an oily zit-covered face, and I find their lack of hygiene to be offensive? What if someone has bad breath? What if someone has a tattoo or a piece of religious jewelry on which conflicts with my own beliefs (or lack thereof)? What if someone farts during a game? What if someone is sipping their soft drink through a straw too loudly for my ears to tolerate? What someone is eating a chicken salad sandwich while I'm shuffling, and my obscure phobia of mayonnaise distracts me from sufficiently randomizing my deck? What someone is scratching their head during a game while contemplating a play response, and their dandruff falls on my playmat? What if I notice that my opponent is wearing Nike shoes, and I'm offended by the fact that by owning and wearing those shoes they're supporting child labor overseas? What if someone laughs uncontrollably after every turn and I don't like that they cackle like an an old crone? What if someone stops to pray between games and it offends me as an atheist? The list of potentially offensive scenarios could go on and on forever. The bottom line is this: If women depicted sexually on sleeves become banned, then it would oly be fair to ban all sleeves portraying any imagery other than authentic MTG related images. That being said, I think we all need to stop and think about what offends us in terms of imagery, and ask whether it's really worth blowing out of proportion and complaining about, or whether we could learn to tolerate something we might not necessarily agree with, if not permanently, at least temporarily for the duration of the match or tournament. Those of us who are mature will eventually come to the conclusion that it's not worth making a big deal out of something so trivial. For all I care, someone could have sleeves depicting a senior citizens orgy, and I wouldn't care or let it throw off my game focus. The way I see it, if someone else gets distracted by such sleeves, that's their problem, not the person using the sleeves. In conclusion, I'll leave you with this very relevant quote against censorship:

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." -Voltaire

It strikes me as spurious that Magic players would lash out against women in various stages of undress on card sleeves and other accessories, considering the fact that females dressed for the weather are a minority on the cards themselves. I don't personally own anything that verges on scandal, but I'm not willing to rebuke someone for having PG-13 sleeves containing a card that is likely to itself possess a busty angel/elf/kithkin on it.

I also find it uproarious how people manage to dislocate their personalities in unified hatred of anime. Unless your FNM is being held at Duchess Prunella of Sainsbury's Tea Nook and Gaming Collective, "straight males", there is probably going to be someone, maybe several someones, who thinks Japanese cartoon women are attractive. You can ignore it, or let it bother you and go 0-4 as a result. Your call.