To be fair, you're not being racist per se, but you're still being supremely ignorant.
Illegal immigrants, some of whom work for less than minimum wage, actually help the economy somewhat rather than hurt it. If you're going to hire someone to do the most menial labour, would you rather hire them at $X/hour, or the $X+Y minimum wage? That $Y can go towards expanding the company (and no, not all money saved this way goes directly into executives' pockets, despite the stereotype). Bigger companies hire more workers. I assure you, giving these menial jobs to citizens wouldn't really help in the long run as much as you'd think.
It depends on how you calculate it out to be. For instance if you take it under the guise of specific community resources such as health care, adds an undue burden to that industry which drives up costs in that area. Just because in aggregate the ripple effects cause some good, the place where the original slash zone takes place is still heavily disrupted during a system perturbation.
Part of the issue with menial tasks versus the professionalization of these jobs is another issue of some complaint, especially among the left. If the jobs were to become professionalized then the wages would rise proportionately. One of the issue is mostly being in the "deadpool" for non advancement in jobs. Granted that for most of the public that wealth is generational, but there is a level of truth to that low advancement in a job tract does contribute to cyclical poverty.
If someone starts with a "☺☺☺☺ job" and then advances to a "real job" the person's contributions to the total economy awakens to a whole new level. Plus the children's destiny is also altered with increased social mobility, as with rising expectations comes new forms of opportunity and cultural change. It's one reason why many of you whites today have "good jobs" versus other minorities.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
To be fair, you're not being racist per se, but you're still being supremely ignorant.
Illegal immigrants, some of whom work for less than minimum wage, actually help the economy somewhat rather than hurt it. If you're going to hire someone to do the most menial labour, would you rather hire them at $X/hour, or the $X+Y minimum wage? That $Y can go towards expanding the company (and no, not all money saved this way goes directly into executives' pockets, despite the stereotype). Bigger companies hire more workers. I assure you, giving these menial jobs to citizens wouldn't really help in the long run as much as you'd think.
You simply can't look at it in a vacuum. Sure, illegal immigrants will work for lower than minimum wage, however:
1) They don't pay taxes.
2) They get free health care by going to the ER and never paying.
3) Their children get free school service, despite not paying taxes.
4) They get into car accidents but don't have insurance.
All of these things are a drain on the system, some in a huge way.
I'd imagine that if an illegal did have to pay taxes, they wouldn't be so quick to work for near nothing. (Although in this economy...)
Lastly, an illegal immigrant is a person who enters the country illegally. It has nothing to do with race whatsoever, so I'm not sure why it was brought up twice.
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My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
Last summer someone that lives by me made the statement, 'you can tell times are tough when the landscaping crews are all white guys.' I didnt think twice about it until I started to notice that almost every landscaping crew I saw was all 30 and 40 something white guys. So there are some white guys that will take the pay to do landscaping.
Landscaping also pays better than doing most retail, and a number of people just do not have the temperament to work in either retail or food service.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
not to sound like a jackass, but I have never made minimum wage. I am a lifeguard, but I can sympathize with the masses. Most of my friends gripe and groan about minimum wage. I don't think it's soul crushing, just not enough money to make a living on.
You simply can't look at it in a vacuum. Sure, illegal immigrants will work for lower than minimum wage, however:
1) They don't pay taxes.
2) They get free health care by going to the ER and never paying.
3) Their children get free school service, despite not paying taxes.
4) They get into car accidents but don't have insurance.
All of these things are a drain on the system, some in a huge way.
I'd imagine that if an illegal did have to pay taxes, they wouldn't be so quick to work for near nothing. (Although in this economy...)
Lastly, an illegal immigrant is a person who enters the country illegally. It has nothing to do with race whatsoever, so I'm not sure why it was brought up twice.
This is just untrue. Illegal immigrants actually pay more into the system than they get out because they still pay things like social security, but they are not allowed to collect it. Generally they pay taxes like everyone else, they just don't get the benefit of it.
This is just untrue. Illegal immigrants actually pay more into the system than they get out because they still pay things like social security, but they are not allowed to collect it. Generally they pay taxes like everyone else, they just don't get the benefit of it.
Is the amount they pay in social security more than the amount that they stiff hospitals? I doubt it.
You also have to take into account how many illegal immigrants pay taxes and how many get paid under the table.
This is just untrue. Illegal immigrants actually pay more into the system than they get out because they still pay things like social security, but they are not allowed to collect it. Generally they pay taxes like everyone else, they just don't get the benefit of it.
A purely utilitarian argument that presumes that all inputs and outputs are equal. In that course, you are correct. What becomes the issue are system shocks that weaken institutions and companies that surround those institutions.
If I throw a large rock into a pond, certainly the surface tension returns to normal. However, it will affect the bottom of the pond. If it lands on a frog, I just disturbed the frog's own personal life. The frog's friends, presuming sentience, will hate me as a person for "carelessly throwing a large rock into the pond." Then that "large rock" will be overpoliticized into the frog community, and the frog that got hit by the giant rock will become a martyr.
That's the difference between Walrasian equilibrium, the surface tension returning to normal, and "reality" of a single story. The issue is that the frog is a particular healthcare institution and the water surface tension is the overall economy. If you hit enough frogs with enough rocks, there's some major ecological problems in that particular pond which just pisses off more frogs that entertain ideologies of NIMBY groups. Eventually, some frogs form the Green Patriots and the like.. but I digress.
However, if you want to address the issue of illegals, drain the pond itself and the frogs will move to another pond. That being the economy's ability to wantonly hire these people, which removes the problem of a rock hitting a frog.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
3) Their children get free school service, despite not paying taxes.
Better than their children not getting school service, because an education means these children can live better lives than their parents and help the economy along in ways other than taking crappy work no one else wants to.
Note that I'm not arguing in favour of illegal immigration. They're illegal immigrants for a reason, and there are legal ways to immigrate. However, the reality of the situation is that it will never be fully addressed, so we might as well accept whatever positives come with it. If you want to look at it as a way of minimizing losses in order to make it more palatable to you, then do that.
Is the amount they pay in social security more than the amount that they stiff hospitals?
The American medical system, like its immigration system, is in dire need of modernization. Wholly privatized health care that allows people to "stiff" hospitals while basically denying proper care to people who can't afford it is a heinously regressive system. But I'm digressing from the topic at hand.
I worked a part-time minimum wage job for about 3 years. I hated it every step of the way, I didn't really need the money, but my parents forced me into it.
Looking back, I learned nothing about work ethic from the experience and the meager amount of money I earned is worth far less than had I committed myself to studying or learning valuable life skills with the time. Currently I have a part-time job at about double minimum wage, and while I still believe my time would be better spent on increasing my future earning potential, this at least provides some amount of programming and relevant industry experience.
I have several friends who are going straight out of college (technical fields) into 50-60k starting salaries, claiming that it wasn't hard to find a job despite the fact that they aren't particularly outstanding candidates. My dad is always warning me about the terrible job market and people with college degrees being forced to work at mcdonalds blah blah but I don't think the future looks all that grim at this point.
Better than their children not getting school service, because an education means these children can live better lives than their parents and help the economy along in ways other than taking crappy work no one else wants to.
Note that I'm not arguing in favour of illegal immigration. They're illegal immigrants for a reason, and there are legal ways to immigrate. However, the reality of the situation is that it will never be fully addressed, so we might as well accept whatever positives come with it. If you want to look at it as a way of minimizing losses in order to make it more palatable to you, then do that.
Except that me and the rest of the tax base are the ones paying for their schooling, which I don't care to do. I'd rather they took the crappy jobs. I mean, somebody has to do them.
Also, they're illegal no matter how you slice it, so no I don't have to just accept it. That's asinine.
Basically meh to this entire post.
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My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
The reason that low-wage employers don't want skilled employees is because they know that those employees will bail the minute that anything better comes along. If an employee says that they will not do this(which most understandably will), they are most likely lying.
....
And yes, minimum wage jobs generally feel like the ☺☺☺☺tiest ever. Sometimes, even being unemployed feels better. At least then you're not busting your ass for 40+ hours/week, only to have nothing to show for it at the end(working full time to make just enough to pay your bills is an extremely, extremely depressing thing to have to deal with). So it's not particularly surprising that people in this situation hate their life. They hate it because it sucks.
Every employee does that. A smart manager is looking at those skilled people saying, "what do you want"? Do you really want to work here, or do you just want a paycheck?
So you get 4 months instead of 6? 99% of people have not regulated themselves to a life of fast food, and if they have they will still get bored of working for you after 6-8 months.
Managers have to be smart about allocating thier training assets.
I mean think about where you work. If you got offered 50% more to move to a similar job wouldn't you jump ship?
If illegals pay rent, and if they pay sales tax then they contribute to the schools. If they pay gas taxes they pay for the roads. As the article states, they pay social security and medicare taxes and get nothing.
This is solely an issue of crime and healthcare. Insurance companies make it hard for doctors to treat these people for cash, so they go to the ER. Seems easy to fix.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I've never found myself to be in agreement with that logic. In my experience, illegals(and even legal immigrants) generally end up working the jobs that other white people think they are too good for anyway. I can assure you that you will never find 2-3 white guys that will spend 3 hours doing yardwork for 60 bucks. They would want 120-150. But in reality, 10 dollars/hr is all that kind of work is really worth, IMO.
First off I think your math is fail here, (3 hours x20=60 not 10 an hour) Second off $20 an hour is a reasonable going rate for landscaping starting pay. (I would know I not only work in this industry I have family who own different landscaping company's) The limit factor is a) you actually need to "work" and b) not everyone can do it, you need too be strong, if you can't lift that 75 pound bag of gravel or push that 200 pound load of wheelbarrel we don't want you.
Responding directly to the title I would have to say yes it is. I currently make just over minimum wage in MN and if I lived alone I would just barely be able to make rent food and bills working 40 hours a week. The point I want to highlight is that while one can survive on minimum wage, you can't live on it. There is no saving for the future or going out to the movies or mall or any of it. It requires living in a very different manner then most people. This is why it's soul crushing. The things most people do are just out of reach when you have to support yourself on minimum wage and that's what makes it harsh.
Responding directly to the title I would have to say yes it is. I currently make just over minimum wage in MN and if I lived alone I would just barely be able to make rent food and bills working 40 hours a week. The point I want to highlight is that while one can survive on minimum wage, you can't live on it. There is no saving for the future or going out to the movies or mall or any of it. It requires living in a very different manner then most people. This is why it's soul crushing. The things most people do are just out of reach when you have to support yourself on minimum wage and that's what makes it harsh.
The biggest problem is finding housing on that income, and getting a full schedule. If you get a full 40 every week which most people on min wage don't then you make $1200 before taxes. Taxes are going to eat 12-15% so you're down to $1020. In my area single bed room apartments cost $650 unless you find someone with a studio who might rent it for $400 or you're in some college town with "dorm style" apartments where you share a living space and don't have to find room-mates. Obv there is a big difference.
Single person should be able to live on $100 a month in food, but you're going to need to use public trans or get rides from friends because even a paid off car is going to run you $300 in gas/insurance/maint.
This is where lack of good public trans is keeping our young people down, esp since they pay more in car insurance than older folks.
With those 3 things you're at $800-1050. If you're hours get cut or whatever you're screwed so you end up at Job #2 for 20+ hours a week, or more than likely you already did that since Job #1 didn't give you the full 40.
I know not everyone has the option, but I lived with my parents when I wasn't in school till I was 27. Part of the reason for that decision was making bad choices about debt when I was making Min wage or close to it.
For the record I may sound ancient to some of you, but when I got my first job min wage was $4.15. I had a job tutoring for $10/hr and when they raised it to $4.25 and then $4.75 I thought I was really getting ripped off since my wages didn't go up.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
The biggest problem is finding housing on that income, and getting a full schedule. If you get a full 40 every week which most people on min wage don't then you make $1200 before taxes. Taxes are going to eat 12-15% so you're down to $1020. In my area single bed room apartments cost $650 unless you find someone with a studio who might rent it for $400 or you're in some college town with "dorm style" apartments where you share a living space and don't have to find room-mates. Obv there is a big difference.
(1) Do people who make $14,400 a year pay 12-15% in taxes???
Your standard deduction is around $9500 if I recall, and the lowest tax bracket is 10%. So if you make $14,400 a year, you have $5000 in taxable income, which taxed at 10% is $500 taxes a year. Throw in state taxes and whatever, and I think that's going to be maybe 5% taxes at most.
(2) If you're on minimum wage, get roommates, save money. I did it when I was going to school, and don't see why people think they're too good for roommates.
(1) Do people who make $14,400 a year pay 12-15% in taxes???
Your standard deduction is around $9500 if I recall, and the lowest tax bracket is 10%. So if you make $14,400 a year, you have $5000 in taxable income, which taxed at 10% is $500 taxes a year. Throw in state taxes and whatever, and I think that's going to be maybe 5% taxes at most.
(2) If you're on minimum wage, get roommates, save money. I did it when I was going to school, and don't see why people think they're too good for roommates.
Firstly, taxes are still taken out, so standard deductions don't mean anything when you're trying to make a monthly payment. Sure, it's a decent tax return, but that means little over the course of a whole year.
The standard deduction is 5,800 for a single individual meaning you end up paying more taxes than in your scenario. So, someone is probably paying around 10-15% of their taxes on full-time mininium wage.
Being on mininium wage sucks, 1,000 dollars a month is not livable, and you pay more taxes just for being single, so you have to rely on roomates, which is not always an option.
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"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
Except that me and the rest of the tax base are the ones paying for their schooling, which I don't care to do. I'd rather they took the crappy jobs. I mean, somebody has to do them.
You realize you're talking to a Canadian, right? I'm totally fine with the idea of my tax dollars paying for benefits for other people. Especially if those people will go on to be better-trained tax payers who'll contribute more to the economy than menial labour. Other peoples' taxes pay for my benefits, and my taxes pay for theirs. My taxes cost me less money than the benefits I receive, and because of them I'm better equipped to be a productive member of society rather than a hanger-on.
If someone's not a citizen but is still kicking around, you seriously do have to weigh the benefit of simply accepting their presence vs the cost of deporting them.
Also, they're illegal no matter how you slice it, so no I don't have to just accept it. That's asinine.
Yes, they're illegal. I acknowledged this in my post. But rather than leaving it at complaining about them, why not try to make the best of a situation that's not going to change any time soon? Policing immigration and jobs and so on even harder would take up more money than simply letting these people contribute to the economy—yeah, they get paid under the table, so no income taxes from them, but they're still buying things with that money. Sales taxes are good for the economy, and the more people buying things, the better.
Your entire post comes across as ignorant and full of self-entitlement.
The standard deduction is 5,800 for a single individual meaning you end up paying more taxes than in your scenario. So, someone is probably paying around 10-15% of their taxes on full-time mininium wage.
You're only making a $5800 deduction if you still live with your mommy, and therefore not paying rent.
The figure on the 2010 1040EZ is $9,350, unless you are being claimed as a dependent by somebody else, in which case they are getting the deduction for housing you, clothing you, and feeding you.
Responding directly to the title I would have to say yes it is. I currently make just over minimum wage in MN and if I lived alone I would just barely be able to make rent food and bills working 40 hours a week. The point I want to highlight is that while one can survive on minimum wage, you can't live on it. There is no saving for the future or going out to the movies or mall or any of it. It requires living in a very different manner then most people. This is why it's soul crushing. The things most people do are just out of reach when you have to support yourself on minimum wage and that's what makes it harsh.
I think he was making the distinction that subsistence doesn't mean you automatically have a life that you can stand living. If you can barely afford food and live in squalor, sure, you can keep going day to day, but you're not really "living" in the sense of getting any fulfillment out of life. You're just going through the motions until you inevitably die. That's "life" in the strictest sense, but it's not a life anyone should be subjected to having to live.
I thought that he made this abundantly clear, and find that you are just being obtuse. To survive is not to 'live' in anything but the literal sense of the word. And considering that this thread is about minimum wage work being 'soul crushing', obviously there are plenty of metaphors going around.
If someone's not a citizen but is still kicking around, you seriously do have to weigh the benefit of simply accepting their presence vs the cost of deporting them.
I understrand this, which is often times why nothing is being done, or it's baby steps. That doesn't mean that I can't discuss my thoughts and feelings on an internet forums about it.
Yes, they're illegal. I acknowledged this in my post. But rather than leaving it at complaining about them, why not try to make the best of a situation that's not going to change any time soon? Policing immigration and jobs and so on even harder would take up more money than simply letting these people contribute to the economy—yeah, they get paid under the table, so no income taxes from them, but they're still buying things with that money. Sales taxes are good for the economy, and the more people buying things, the better.
You realize that there's no sales tax on food and clothes under a certain amount, right? What luxury items do you think they're buying?
Your entire post comes across as ignorant and full of self-entitlement.
It's anything but. I'm the one who lives in the United States, right next to a place overrun with illegal immigrants. You don't even live in the country, and I'm the ignorant one?
All I want is that the money I make at my job, that I work extremely hard for, goes to me instead of somebody else. And I'm self-entitled? I don't think so. People who abuse the system are scum, and we shouldn't cater to them.
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My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
It's anything but. I'm the one who lives in the United States, right next to a place overrun with illegal immigrants. You don't even live in the country, and I'm the ignorant one?
All I want is that the money I make at my job, that I work extremely hard for, goes to me instead of somebody else. And I'm self-entitled? I don't think so. People who abuse the system are scum, and we shouldn't cater to them.
I live here, and you do benefit from your own taxes going to other people. Food stamps versus jailing starving people for instance, it's just cheaper to feed their asses than jail them. The same with the funding of schooling. For every stooge that majors in creative writing you have someone else that majors in something useful like medicine. That medicine major then creates a system where people can be on staff to save lives.
"Individual responsibility" is not how humanity evolved, and we're both selfish and altruistic.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
All I want is that the money I make at my job, that I work extremely hard for, goes to me instead of somebody else. And I'm self-entitled? I don't think so.
Do you use public utilities? Roads? Did you go to a public school? Are any medications you take approved by the FDA? Do you enjoy being protected from crime by the police? None of these things pay for themselves, you know. If you want to play the Internet-libertarian card, then sure, play it, but you should realize just how much benefit other people's taxes give you.
To be totally honest, it comes off like someone complaining about big corporations at a Starbucks. You go on about how "all you want is the money you make" but you make use of contributions from other people.
You don't even live in the country, and I'm the ignorant one?
Simply living in the country doesn't mean you automatically know the full ramifications of the subject at hand.
Edit:
For every stooge that majors in creative writing you have someone else that majors in something useful like medicine.
Incidentally, you don't see a whole lot of immigrants in fluff courses. You do, however, see them in business courses, engineering courses, medicine, and other courses directly aimed towards getting a useful job. It's mostly the rich people who are guaranteed income either way that major in things like English, Psychology, and so on.
It depends on how you calculate it out to be. For instance if you take it under the guise of specific community resources such as health care, adds an undue burden to that industry which drives up costs in that area. Just because in aggregate the ripple effects cause some good, the place where the original slash zone takes place is still heavily disrupted during a system perturbation.
Part of the issue with menial tasks versus the professionalization of these jobs is another issue of some complaint, especially among the left. If the jobs were to become professionalized then the wages would rise proportionately. One of the issue is mostly being in the "deadpool" for non advancement in jobs. Granted that for most of the public that wealth is generational, but there is a level of truth to that low advancement in a job tract does contribute to cyclical poverty.
If someone starts with a "☺☺☺☺ job" and then advances to a "real job" the person's contributions to the total economy awakens to a whole new level. Plus the children's destiny is also altered with increased social mobility, as with rising expectations comes new forms of opportunity and cultural change. It's one reason why many of you whites today have "good jobs" versus other minorities.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
You simply can't look at it in a vacuum. Sure, illegal immigrants will work for lower than minimum wage, however:
1) They don't pay taxes.
2) They get free health care by going to the ER and never paying.
3) Their children get free school service, despite not paying taxes.
4) They get into car accidents but don't have insurance.
All of these things are a drain on the system, some in a huge way.
I'd imagine that if an illegal did have to pay taxes, they wouldn't be so quick to work for near nothing. (Although in this economy...)
Lastly, an illegal immigrant is a person who enters the country illegally. It has nothing to do with race whatsoever, so I'm not sure why it was brought up twice.
Landscaping also pays better than doing most retail, and a number of people just do not have the temperament to work in either retail or food service.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
This is just untrue. Illegal immigrants actually pay more into the system than they get out because they still pay things like social security, but they are not allowed to collect it. Generally they pay taxes like everyone else, they just don't get the benefit of it.
Is the amount they pay in social security more than the amount that they stiff hospitals? I doubt it.
You also have to take into account how many illegal immigrants pay taxes and how many get paid under the table.
A purely utilitarian argument that presumes that all inputs and outputs are equal. In that course, you are correct. What becomes the issue are system shocks that weaken institutions and companies that surround those institutions.
If I throw a large rock into a pond, certainly the surface tension returns to normal. However, it will affect the bottom of the pond. If it lands on a frog, I just disturbed the frog's own personal life. The frog's friends, presuming sentience, will hate me as a person for "carelessly throwing a large rock into the pond." Then that "large rock" will be overpoliticized into the frog community, and the frog that got hit by the giant rock will become a martyr.
That's the difference between Walrasian equilibrium, the surface tension returning to normal, and "reality" of a single story. The issue is that the frog is a particular healthcare institution and the water surface tension is the overall economy. If you hit enough frogs with enough rocks, there's some major ecological problems in that particular pond which just pisses off more frogs that entertain ideologies of NIMBY groups. Eventually, some frogs form the Green Patriots and the like.. but I digress.
However, if you want to address the issue of illegals, drain the pond itself and the frogs will move to another pond. That being the economy's ability to wantonly hire these people, which removes the problem of a rock hitting a frog.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Better than their children not getting school service, because an education means these children can live better lives than their parents and help the economy along in ways other than taking crappy work no one else wants to.
Note that I'm not arguing in favour of illegal immigration. They're illegal immigrants for a reason, and there are legal ways to immigrate. However, the reality of the situation is that it will never be fully addressed, so we might as well accept whatever positives come with it. If you want to look at it as a way of minimizing losses in order to make it more palatable to you, then do that.
The American medical system, like its immigration system, is in dire need of modernization. Wholly privatized health care that allows people to "stiff" hospitals while basically denying proper care to people who can't afford it is a heinously regressive system. But I'm digressing from the topic at hand.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm
Also, I used to have a study that put a number on how much more the average illegal worker pays in taxes than they receive, but I can't find it.
Looking back, I learned nothing about work ethic from the experience and the meager amount of money I earned is worth far less than had I committed myself to studying or learning valuable life skills with the time. Currently I have a part-time job at about double minimum wage, and while I still believe my time would be better spent on increasing my future earning potential, this at least provides some amount of programming and relevant industry experience.
I have several friends who are going straight out of college (technical fields) into 50-60k starting salaries, claiming that it wasn't hard to find a job despite the fact that they aren't particularly outstanding candidates. My dad is always warning me about the terrible job market and people with college degrees being forced to work at mcdonalds blah blah but I don't think the future looks all that grim at this point.
Except that me and the rest of the tax base are the ones paying for their schooling, which I don't care to do. I'd rather they took the crappy jobs. I mean, somebody has to do them.
Also, they're illegal no matter how you slice it, so no I don't have to just accept it. That's asinine.
Basically meh to this entire post.
Every employee does that. A smart manager is looking at those skilled people saying, "what do you want"? Do you really want to work here, or do you just want a paycheck?
So you get 4 months instead of 6? 99% of people have not regulated themselves to a life of fast food, and if they have they will still get bored of working for you after 6-8 months.
Managers have to be smart about allocating thier training assets.
I mean think about where you work. If you got offered 50% more to move to a similar job wouldn't you jump ship?
If illegals pay rent, and if they pay sales tax then they contribute to the schools. If they pay gas taxes they pay for the roads. As the article states, they pay social security and medicare taxes and get nothing.
This is solely an issue of crime and healthcare. Insurance companies make it hard for doctors to treat these people for cash, so they go to the ER. Seems easy to fix.
First off I think your math is fail here, (3 hours x20=60 not 10 an hour) Second off $20 an hour is a reasonable going rate for landscaping starting pay. (I would know I not only work in this industry I have family who own different landscaping company's) The limit factor is a) you actually need to "work" and b) not everyone can do it, you need too be strong, if you can't lift that 75 pound bag of gravel or push that 200 pound load of wheelbarrel we don't want you.
The biggest problem is finding housing on that income, and getting a full schedule. If you get a full 40 every week which most people on min wage don't then you make $1200 before taxes. Taxes are going to eat 12-15% so you're down to $1020. In my area single bed room apartments cost $650 unless you find someone with a studio who might rent it for $400 or you're in some college town with "dorm style" apartments where you share a living space and don't have to find room-mates. Obv there is a big difference.
Single person should be able to live on $100 a month in food, but you're going to need to use public trans or get rides from friends because even a paid off car is going to run you $300 in gas/insurance/maint.
This is where lack of good public trans is keeping our young people down, esp since they pay more in car insurance than older folks.
With those 3 things you're at $800-1050. If you're hours get cut or whatever you're screwed so you end up at Job #2 for 20+ hours a week, or more than likely you already did that since Job #1 didn't give you the full 40.
I know not everyone has the option, but I lived with my parents when I wasn't in school till I was 27. Part of the reason for that decision was making bad choices about debt when I was making Min wage or close to it.
For the record I may sound ancient to some of you, but when I got my first job min wage was $4.15. I had a job tutoring for $10/hr and when they raised it to $4.25 and then $4.75 I thought I was really getting ripped off since my wages didn't go up.
Your standard deduction is around $9500 if I recall, and the lowest tax bracket is 10%. So if you make $14,400 a year, you have $5000 in taxable income, which taxed at 10% is $500 taxes a year. Throw in state taxes and whatever, and I think that's going to be maybe 5% taxes at most.
(2) If you're on minimum wage, get roommates, save money. I did it when I was going to school, and don't see why people think they're too good for roommates.
Firstly, taxes are still taken out, so standard deductions don't mean anything when you're trying to make a monthly payment. Sure, it's a decent tax return, but that means little over the course of a whole year.
The standard deduction is 5,800 for a single individual meaning you end up paying more taxes than in your scenario. So, someone is probably paying around 10-15% of their taxes on full-time mininium wage.
Being on mininium wage sucks, 1,000 dollars a month is not livable, and you pay more taxes just for being single, so you have to rely on roomates, which is not always an option.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
You realize you're talking to a Canadian, right? I'm totally fine with the idea of my tax dollars paying for benefits for other people. Especially if those people will go on to be better-trained tax payers who'll contribute more to the economy than menial labour. Other peoples' taxes pay for my benefits, and my taxes pay for theirs. My taxes cost me less money than the benefits I receive, and because of them I'm better equipped to be a productive member of society rather than a hanger-on.
If someone's not a citizen but is still kicking around, you seriously do have to weigh the benefit of simply accepting their presence vs the cost of deporting them.
Yes, they're illegal. I acknowledged this in my post. But rather than leaving it at complaining about them, why not try to make the best of a situation that's not going to change any time soon? Policing immigration and jobs and so on even harder would take up more money than simply letting these people contribute to the economy—yeah, they get paid under the table, so no income taxes from them, but they're still buying things with that money. Sales taxes are good for the economy, and the more people buying things, the better.
Your entire post comes across as ignorant and full of self-entitlement.
The figure on the 2010 1040EZ is $9,350, unless you are being claimed as a dependent by somebody else, in which case they are getting the deduction for housing you, clothing you, and feeding you.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040ez.pdf
See line 5.
What exactly do you think 'living' means?
I think he was making the distinction that subsistence doesn't mean you automatically have a life that you can stand living. If you can barely afford food and live in squalor, sure, you can keep going day to day, but you're not really "living" in the sense of getting any fulfillment out of life. You're just going through the motions until you inevitably die. That's "life" in the strictest sense, but it's not a life anyone should be subjected to having to live.
I thought that he made this abundantly clear, and find that you are just being obtuse. To survive is not to 'live' in anything but the literal sense of the word. And considering that this thread is about minimum wage work being 'soul crushing', obviously there are plenty of metaphors going around.
Well I'm not, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I understrand this, which is often times why nothing is being done, or it's baby steps. That doesn't mean that I can't discuss my thoughts and feelings on an internet forums about it.
You realize that there's no sales tax on food and clothes under a certain amount, right? What luxury items do you think they're buying?
It's anything but. I'm the one who lives in the United States, right next to a place overrun with illegal immigrants. You don't even live in the country, and I'm the ignorant one?
All I want is that the money I make at my job, that I work extremely hard for, goes to me instead of somebody else. And I'm self-entitled? I don't think so. People who abuse the system are scum, and we shouldn't cater to them.
I live here, and you do benefit from your own taxes going to other people. Food stamps versus jailing starving people for instance, it's just cheaper to feed their asses than jail them. The same with the funding of schooling. For every stooge that majors in creative writing you have someone else that majors in something useful like medicine. That medicine major then creates a system where people can be on staff to save lives.
"Individual responsibility" is not how humanity evolved, and we're both selfish and altruistic.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Do you use public utilities? Roads? Did you go to a public school? Are any medications you take approved by the FDA? Do you enjoy being protected from crime by the police? None of these things pay for themselves, you know. If you want to play the Internet-libertarian card, then sure, play it, but you should realize just how much benefit other people's taxes give you.
To be totally honest, it comes off like someone complaining about big corporations at a Starbucks. You go on about how "all you want is the money you make" but you make use of contributions from other people.
Simply living in the country doesn't mean you automatically know the full ramifications of the subject at hand.
Edit:
Incidentally, you don't see a whole lot of immigrants in fluff courses. You do, however, see them in business courses, engineering courses, medicine, and other courses directly aimed towards getting a useful job. It's mostly the rich people who are guaranteed income either way that major in things like English, Psychology, and so on.