PeterGriffin: Now you're just trolling and pretending everything I post in this thread is directed at you. Seriously, you're being denser than your namesake.
I'm done with you and your trollish ignorance. Seriously this time.
Superior numbers, better technology, winning key wars, greater advances, whatever the reason...it's still all environmental. Any other race could have had the same outcome, but they didn't. We're not the dominant race simply because we're white, like we suddenly slipped in by default for no reason.
Ah, so the superiority (technological, social, whatever) of the white race is to blame? But yet because white people are the pinnacle of the social hierarchy in North America, other races are clearly at a social disadvantage owing to the fact that they aren't quite so white as you.
What you're basically doing is saying "white people came out on top through sheer effort, so the current social situation is okay." Doesn't work like that.
But when that resource comes directly from me, then I have an issue.
If your issues are so great, I hear there's a political party that backs socially regressive policies you can vote for. Not sure how well they'll do against Obama in the next election, but hey, if you don't like their prospects, you can always run, yourself.
And speaking as a woman who's very openly on the LGBT spectrum
You know, I don't hang around this part of the forums very much, but in the threads I have been in, in *every single one of them*, you seem to make it a point to point out just how LGBT you are. I can't figure out if you are trying to prove someone or if you are insecure about it and overcompensating
You know, I don't hang around this part of the forums very much, but in the threads I have been in, in *every single one of them*, you seem to make it a point to point out just how LGBT you are. I can't figure out if you are trying to prove someone or if you are insecure about it and overcompensating
You only think I do that. In reality, while I do bring it up a lot, it's hardly something I do every time.
Ah, so the superiority (technological, social, whatever) of the white race is to blame? But yet because white people are the pinnacle of the social hierarchy in North America, other races are clearly at a social disadvantage owing to the fact that they aren't quite so white as you.
No, other races are at a disatvantage because they didn't invent [insert something relevant here] or didn't win [insert important war here]. Any other group of individuals could have changed history. But the fact remains that discrimination isn't ever really about a single thing. Today it could be racial, during WWII it was religious. When you discuss a political topic, those sorts of statistics should be left out because there's so many exceptions and generalizations. Coming full circle, I'm against welfare not because I have something against a particular race, but because the government has decided for me that I should help somebody else. That should be my choice.
What you're basically doing is saying "white people came out on top through sheer effort, so the current social situation is okay." Doesn't work like that.
I never said it was ok, but I recognize it for what it is, just like you. It's really unfortunate that some employers may be racist, but the entire white race shouldn't be held accountable for that.
If your issues are so great, I hear there's a political party that backs socially regressive policies you can vote for. Not sure how well they'll do against Obama in the next election, but hey, if you don't like their prospects, you can always run, yourself.
Actually I can't run, there's age laws on a presidential candidacy, plus I have no political background so no one would take me seriously anyway. And yes, I doo vote a certain way, so?
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My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
Coming full circle, I'm against welfare not because I have something against a particular race, but because the government has decided for me that I should help somebody else. That should be my choice.
If you don't know about the person in need, how then can you make a choice at all? Again taking same said person in "some far away city" in your own state, gets arrested for shop lifting food, and then is arrested, processed, housed, prosecuted and ect. Where as we can by pass all that trifle bother by handing out food stamps and lowering petty theft that therefore decreases theft, keeps jail costs low, and altogether keeps food prices lower.
So the invisible hand when it becomes visible in aggregate becomes a pimp hand that slaps mightily. The world is an overly complex place so we have people that control certain sections of our lives, including where our water, homes, food, and even where babies come from. Your sphere of personal responsibility from the getgo is low, even without the existence of government. Life is a bit more complicated than the Pepsi Challenge when making decisions.
-Some suggestion pursue works by people such as Ostrom that did a bit of work on the "tragedy of commons" issues in society without rose colored glasses.
Ah, so the superiority (technological, social, whatever) of the white race is to blame? But yet because white people are the pinnacle of the social hierarchy in North America, other races are clearly at a social disadvantage owing to the fact that they aren't quite so white as you.
Whites got a few things right, but Jews and Asians do culture better when it comes to social mobility. My own race and others are at a distinct disadvantage because of the inherent problems that our culture and locality places upon us. It's not a pretty fact, sure racism then and now does contribute. However, slow assimilation to not "become white" is equally stupid. Most races have highly educated men and women of the highest caliber that contributed to this society and other golden ages in other past societies. To ignore that is repulsive, and a real dereliction of our culture, not something that the whites "keeping us down."
We perpetuate bad parts of our culture that chain our own youth and damn them to become low lives. Those of us that have escaped the cycles of despair often do not "give back" and separate ourselves over generations from the underclasses. Whites do that too, it is a dark part of human nature that is tied universally to both rural and urban poor.
I don't know whether it's one portion of modern feminism to take into account privilege of biology or your own personal experiences with autism. But there are just somethings that are beyond skin color. I've had to ask myself some times why some people that came from the same neighborhood as I did why are they dead? And to be quite frank, when you sit down and look at a lot of it goes beyond skin color. It's about something more vivid, it's about culture, community, and other intangibles that are harder to define than fleeting nomenclature for races.
What you're basically doing is saying "white people came out on top through sheer effort, so the current social situation is okay." Doesn't work like that.
Biology is certainly a part, the other part is nurture and individual choice. To have a failure to take into account all sides is like blaming and claiming all your own personal success and failures by fiat of having a mutation and having that single mutation defining yourself in your entirety.
If your issues are so great, I hear there's a political party that backs socially regressive policies you can vote for. Not sure how well they'll do against Obama in the next election, but hey, if you don't like their prospects, you can always run, yourself.
Look specifically at the plans put forward by some people like Newt Gingrich if you have a chance, on some of the specifics Republicans are more leftists than the so called "progressive liberal socialist" in the Democratic Party. The first thing you should know about American politics is never listen to what is said, but rather see what is done.
Also, I watched a speech by Obama tonight on the "smart grid" idea he's been selling:
1. He's open to localism to take charge to have different regions of the country put up a patch work system that's eventually tied together
2. Private investment mostly funding the tab
This is some of the densest ☺☺☺☺ I have ever read. Black people's overall economic status and position in contemporary US society is directly formed by generations of racial oppression. The effects of this are still felt as is evidenced by the significantly greater likelihood of black Americans to be poor, with all that that entails (education, employment, health and so on!). A consequence-free way for the political establishment to win votes is to destroy social programs that attempt to help poor people while smearing those who need it as "welfare queens". Did you really think it was just coincidence that black people are more likely to be poor?
That's a culture problem. Even looking at whites and the US government compared to the Canadian government there's a high amount of debt for consumption purposes. Here's a fun little stereotype that plays into that:
It's sad, but again that's the American culture. Buy now, pay later. Sure it works for homes and the like, but the consistent viral use of it has devastating effects. The American (this includes our white countrymen) was negative prior to the recession. That's some scary ☺☺☺☺.
As an aside, why do Europeans suck at integrating Arabs? To be honest, Arabs for the most part don't look too far from white and are actually counted as white in the States. Is is because of the Crusades?
I spent over $40k and worked my ass off to get my degree in biochemistry. I didn't go out and party, I didn't skip class, I didn't slack off; instead, I joined clubs, I did research, and I earned top grades in my class. It was a hard as hell to do and I'm very proud of my accomplishment.
I now work as a telemarketer. Am I happy to have a job that keeps me alive? Yes. Am I thankful or grateful that I have the job that I do? Hell no. I spent four and a half years of my life studying my buns off to learn something valuable to society. The knowledge I have is something beyond what a huge portion of the general public can't grasp. Am I happy that I'm wasting my abilities at a crappy hourly job? No.
Now, as for the "Is minimum wage really as soul crushing as it seems" question. If I were doing chemistry for the same pay I'm getting now, I would be happy as a clam. But I'm not, I'm doing something stupid and menial. It isn't the pay that depresses me, it's the work I am doing.
Whites got a few things right, but Jews and Asians do culture better when it comes to social mobility.
The part you quoted right above this is partially sarcastic.
Skin colour isn't the be-all and end-all, but like sex and gender it's one of the most highly visible things about someone.
Look specifically at the plans put forward by some people like Newt Gingrich if you have a chance, on some of the specifics Republicans are more leftists than the so called "progressive liberal socialist" in the Democratic Party. The first thing you should know about American politics is never listen to what is said, but rather see what is done.
This is why I call the Republicans a regressive party, actually. What they say they'll do and what they wind up doing are usually two entirely different things. But this is digressing pretty far from the point of this thread, so I'll shut up about it now.
Sp, first we had the "evidence", then we had the flaming and putting words in my mouth. Now we have the troll card. You really have pulled out all the stops to someone who has nothing to back up their claim with. What's next? Threatening to report me to a mod or something? I wouldn't be surprised.
and pretending everything I post in this thread is directed at you.
I never did that, I only thought you directed something at me because you quoted me and then said it. If you quote someone, and then write something, it's assumed that you directed your point at the person you quoted. With your history of putting words in my mouth, I think it's reasonable that's what you were doing.
Captain Morgan really put it way more eloquently then I ever could. Black people aren't in the position they are in because they are black, it is because of the neighborhoods and families they are born into. Which is a result of years of slavery, then segregation, and various amounts of oppression over that time. It is also because they all moved to towns like Chicago, Detroit and New York in the "Great Migration"(I think that's what it was called, I am not sure. Someone correct me if I'm wrong), which today are a mess, mostly due to some of the policies they have had over the years.
But in the past 30 or 40 years, many black people have broken out, and succeeded without the policies and such we had before. In fact, in the past 30 years, black women have had the highest median income growth. Is that the "oppression" you were talking about? Am I supposed to say, that is a sign that the system is now stacked against white people? No, of course not, that would be silly because there is no evidence and no reason to believe that.
Captain Morgan put it very well, and that was basically what I was trying to say, maybe I could have been more clear to get my point across.
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
As long as you're happy with the job you have and are able to live within your means, then I don't see any big deal as to how much it pays. The problem that most people have is that they put a status on a person based off of how much they make, so that can cause some problems.
But if you enjoy what you're doing and not hurting financially because of it, shoot, go for it!
If you don't know about the person in need, how then can you make a choice at all? Again taking same said person in "some far away city" in your own state, gets arrested for shop lifting food, and then is arrested, processed, housed, prosecuted and ect. Where as we can by pass all that trifle bother by handing out food stamps and lowering petty theft that therefore decreases theft, keeps jail costs low, and altogether keeps food prices lower.
The only thing I need to know is that the resource is coming from my own private property. (Am I forced to care about someone else?) Taxes are one thing, social handouts another. They are not the same. My personal belief is that the Government shouldn't be justified to essentially give one person's resources to another.
To you, social handouts keep people off the street, out of jails and overall save money (which is probably true), but to me it just breeds stagnation and laziness at the expense of the working class. Two different mindsets I think. I definitely agree something needs to be done, but I don't think welfare is it. At least not in its current form.
The rest of your post I 100% agree with. Thank you for stating it better than I.
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My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
I spent over $40k and worked my ass off to get my degree in biochemistry.
Unfortunately, what actually occurred was your parents, guidance councilors, professors or you yourself failed to look into careers in the sciences having only an undergrad degree. There are very few science-oriented degrees that lead to satisfying careers in you only have an undergrad. One exception is engineering, but that's because it IS a professional degree. B.Sc.'s are not professional degrees - you need to do a Ph.D. to be considered a professional in your field of study. I would also say that spending 40k on tuition fees and the like suggests you didn't have the best marks (no scholarships) and hence how could you expect to get a job in a field that you're not at the top of? Tech/science fields are extremely competitive - having a degree means dick if you don't stand out in some manner.
Captain Morgan really put it way more eloquently then I ever could. Black people aren't in the position they are in because they are black, it is because of the neighborhoods and families they are born into. Which is a result of years of slavery, then segregation, and various amounts of oppression over that time. It is also because they all moved to towns like Chicago, Detroit and New York in the "Great Migration"(I think that's what it was called, I am not sure. Someone correct me if I'm wrong), which today are a mess, mostly due to some of the policies they have had over the years.
But in the past 30 or 40 years, many black people have broken out, and succeeded without the policies and such we had before. In fact, in the past 30 years, black women have had the highest median income growth. Is that the "oppression" you were talking about? Am I supposed to say, that is a sign that the system is now stacked against white people? No, of course not, that would be silly because there is no evidence and no reason to believe that.
Captain Morgan put it very well, and that was basically what I was trying to say, maybe I could have been more clear to get my point across.
You are coming across with a position that makes it seem as though racial minorities are in a position where institutional racism is constantly working against them.
Which basically means those in power (white people) built a system and inherently that system plays better to white individuals.
Example: Black males make up 1/3 of the individuals in prison. Black males make up 13% of the male US population. That is census data.
Derived from court case data (nationally) was that black males are 50% more likely to serve jail time for the exact same crimes and with similar backgrounds than their white counterparts.
So if Joe (black) and Joe Bob (white) both have identical backgrounds and commit the same crime and have the same track record Joe is 50% more likely to serve time for his minor crime because of his skin color.
I can go out and get a bunch of sources and sites to throw at you that explain and talk about racism (which is different then prejudice), but really are you going to listen or believe any of it? Probably not. You have been dismissing other's opinions quite a bit.
You can see racism really easily when you look at President Obama. When was the last time a significant portion of the population called the president- that which we ALL fight against and hate and vilify- which is what the purpose of calling him a Muslim is. Infact people actually think that he is a Muslim. They buy this reoccurring rhetoric. Often presidents are called tyrants, dictators, or Hitler, or etc- but those are personifications- no one really thinks that president is actually anywhere near Hitler or a tyrant (if they know what that is), but with Obama people actually vilify him to an extreme extent.
And honestly, I believe it is because he is black. Because people can't come to grips with saying, "I hate our president because he is black, and a black president defies an ethno-centric government. I guess I can apply labels to him I can hate. Like Muslim."
You are coming across with a position that makes it seem as though racial minorities are in a position where institutional racism is constantly working against them.
Which basically means those in power (white people) built a system and inherently that system plays better to white individuals.
Minorities have also built a system that is defensive against de jure and de facto segregation and racism. The institutions are there, the issues are the institutions within the community. Could there be better education system, infrastructure, and macro economic policy for urban and rural poor? Most certainly, but the Second Reconstruction has went a long way to purging the Jim Crow institutions.
Example: Black males make up 1/3 of the individuals in prison. Black males make up 13% of the male US population. That is census data.
Note black male, which has been a demographic problem in comparison with women that get more education and are often the center of black communities. The incarceration system does not help, but equally the culture in poor black areas is not conducive to it. Black men that hit the middle class, though, have a much lower incarceration rate, higher marriage prospects, and become a part of an upper class eventually that is quite welcoming.
Our drug policies suck ass, there's no other words for the War on Drugs that does not decrease drug use. Education and culture are far more guiding places for use.
Derived from court case data (nationally) was that black males are 50% more likely to serve jail time for the exact same crimes and with similar backgrounds than their white counterparts.
Whites are wealthier, and can afford better lawyers. Public defenders, like other social workers, tend to be underpaid, understaffed, and overworked.
So if Joe (black) and Joe Bob (white) both have identical backgrounds and commit the same crime and have the same track record Joe is 50% more likely to serve time for his minor crime because of his skin color.
Where does Joe the Black and Joe Bob the White come from? If we're going to talk statistics, in specific rural towns Joe Bob would be screwed worse off than Joe the Black in suburbia.
And honestly, I believe it is because he is black. Because people can't come to grips with saying, "I hate our president because he is black, and a black president defies an ethno-centric government. I guess I can apply labels to him I can hate. Like Muslim."
Yes, some hate Obama because he's black(and ironically white), we already know that. The issue is mostly:
1. Birthers whether he was born in the states or not
-This happens to white politicians as well, look at the Adams v. Jackson election, it was far, far more vicious than what we see today.
2. "Colonial mentality" or whatever wordy nonsense that Gingrich came up with is common tactics today in politics, it is right up there with the "progressive liberal socialist agenda." Socialist not sexy enough for anarchists?
The amusing part though is other than "true believers"/die hards typically don't smoke that ☺☺☺☺. The only time where these become an issue is because of our primary set up, where people have to follow the "Nixon Plan" by pandering to the base during the primaries and during the general they rotate to become more moderate. A real reflection of our institutions, rather than having true open primaries that include independents in more states so that politicians can go tell those on either side of the far flung corners to be ignored.
People "do it" because the strategy works, take away the incentives and the problem becomes inundated. It is similar to how Olberman and now his best friend over at Fox are downsized or out of a job. People can only go so far before society tells them to screw off.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Minorities have also built a system that is defensive against de jure and de facto segregation and racism. The institutions are there, the issues are the institutions within the community. Could there be better education system, infrastructure, and macro economic policy for urban and rural poor? Most certainly, but the Second Reconstruction has went a long way to purging the Jim Crow institutions.
While the system has improved and so have the socialized constructions of what "black people" do/are- it isn't over. Racism (as in a systematic, institutionalized sense) still exists. It is why within class tiers we still see anyone other than the privileged making less than their counterparts on average. Across the board. So unless we are saying that across the board minorities are always less capable we can easily see racism.
Attempts at justification just further entrench our society into racism.
Also- and this is not towards you, but arguments I have seen other people bringing up that only one type of -ism applies. I believe in the overarching kyriarchy. Which basically means that in the US the white, straight, suburban, cis-male has great advantages. Unfair advantages over the rest of society.
Attempts at justification just further entrench our society into racism.
Also- and this is not towards you, but arguments I have seen other people bringing up that only one type of -ism applies. I believe in the overarching kyriarchy. Which basically means that in the US the white, straight, suburban, cis-male has great advantages. Unfair advantages over the rest of society.
Quote from Kyriarchy is a neologism coined by Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza,[1 »
as a modification of the term patriarchy which elaborates intersecting structures of domination. The word is derived from the Greek words κύριος (kyrios), "lord" or "master"[2] and ἄρχω (archō), meaning amongst others "to lead, rule, govern"[3] and defines a system of "ruling and oppression" in which many people may interact and act as oppressor or oppressed. The term was coined in But She Said: Feminist Practices of Biblical Interpretation, published in 1992.
Quote from Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza (born 1938) is a feminist theologian. She received her Theologicum (MDiv), Lic. Theol., University of Würzburg, Thoel.D. from the University of Munster, Germany. She identifies as Catholic and her work is generally in the context of Christianity, although much of her work has broader applicability. She is currently the Krister Stendahl Professor of Divinity at Harvard Divinity School.
She is the co-founder and editor of the Journal of Feminist Studies in Religion and is a co-editor of Concilium.[1 »
She was the first woman elected as president of the Society of Biblical Literature and she was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 2001.[1] Her husband, also a chaired professor at Harvard Divinity School, is Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, a Catholic theologian.
In Memory of Her: A Feminist Theological Reconstruction of Christian Origins is one of her earliest and best-known books. This work, which argued for the retrieval of the overlooked contributions of women in the early Christian church, set a high standard for historical rigor in feminist theology. Additionally, she has published widely in journals and anthologies.
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Actually, I'll add in these few works on top of the others I suggested earlier:
Bowling Alone by Robert D Putnam
The Culture of Narcissism and The Revolt of the Elites by Christopher Lasch
The Moral Consequences of Economic Growth by Benjamin M. Friedman
Generations by Neil Howe and William Strauss
Bowling Alone and The Moral Consequences would probably be more lock in step with some of your own beliefs, the Christopher Lasch work not so much. There's plenty of decent reviews on them on Amazon, and they tend to be worth the read. I read some of these works a few decades ago now, but I found them worthwhile still or at least some of it.
I'm really not going to change your mind to any degree with anecdotes or taking a meticulous deconstruction of modern feminism. I'm certain you've gotten the gist of my counter arguments already. However, if you're intellectually curious about the factors and intellectualism I draw from it is a far different tradition than feminism for all it's limitations for socio-economic factors in our civilization.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Actually, I'll add in these few works on top of the others I suggested earlier:
Bowling Alone by Robert D Putnam
The Culture of Narcissism and The Revolt of the Elites by Christopher Lasch
The Moral Consequences of Economic Growth by Benjamin M. Friedman
Generations by Neil Howe and William Strauss
Bowling Alone and The Moral Consequences would probably be more lock in step with some of your own beliefs, the Christopher Lasch work not so much. There's plenty of decent reviews on them on Amazon, and they tend to be worth the read. I read some of these works a few decades ago now, but I found them worthwhile still or at least some of it.
I'm really not going to change your mind to any degree with anecdotes or taking a meticulous deconstruction of modern feminism. I'm certain you've gotten the gist of my counter arguments already. However, if you're intellectually curious about the factors and intellectualism I draw from it is a far different tradition than feminism for all it's limitations for socio-economic factors in our civilization.
Thanks! I always appreciate new literature.
Really the only way to change minds is through experience and dialogue. And that is not to say that you couldn't change how I think over MTGSalvation; I am currently seeing the world through a lens that seems correct to me.
I'd say face to face it is much easier to listen to a position then over the internet. The unintentional hostility and anonymity are not conducive to an open dialogue.
I am utterly amazed that this argument has been going on for this many pages. Where do large amounts of ethnicities live? For the sake of it, let's use blacks. Where in America is this specific group living? The majority are living in poor inner cities which have faced severe economical depression.
Let's use Cleveland, simply because I am from there and It's the city I can provide the most accurate insight on. Cleveland was absolutely crushed when the steel industry collapsed. Thousands became unemployed. Thousands of white males. The African American population in Cleveland since then has increased dramatically.Where did all the unemployed white males stated earlier go? Most moved away to find WORK.
Inner city schools, especially the one I MYSELF went to (I'm your lower class white male, btw) were at a 9 black, 1 white ratio. Some classes I was the only white student. School was not easy for me. Constant outbursts from everyone around me made it very hard to concentrate in class, and I still, although it isn't actually factual, contribute this to the reason that I am currently working 40 hrs a week in a minimum wage job. This is what happens when you squeeze 40+ children into one class room with ONE teacher who is getting paid half of what they deserve to make. That's a problem in itself, and an entirely different issue, though.
Remember we are only talking about black people in Cleveland at this moment. Why is it that children who grow up being educated in a system like this often end up as a product of the system? Be it ☺☺☺☺ty minimum wage jobs, social security or jail. Why? We wronged African Americans. They have been discriminated against. This is undeniable. But, when do you stop and think about it? When do you actually start to just accept this? You. Don't. I consider the way I grew up a blessing. I am not racist. I am not a homophobe and I do not think my race and gender make me better than anyone. It's all in my character and I wouldn't be the person I am without seeing truly unfortunate people around me.
How many black children grow up without fathers? Why are father figures important? Father figures will show you hard work. You will follow their example. If your father works 50 hrs a week at minimum wage, odds are he's going to want a better life for his child that he actually STUCK AROUND to raise. The child will see a hard working man acting selflessly to support his family. They won't see a single mother, be her white or black, working her ass off and not being able to cut it while getting help from social security, which still isn't enough. This is a cycle. This will not stop unless the economy in ethnic areas increases. African American teens can't find jobs. White american teens can't find jobs in places like this, either. But, do you think it's easier for the white teen to get a job? Hell yes. Especially if the person hiring them in Human Resources is a white person themselves.
My point is, regardless of color, race, sexuality or creed, if you grow up in a ☺☺☺☺ty area surrounded by crime and oppression, your children most likely will too. And it repeats itself. When you grow up with poor education and the idea that whites get more chances, and whites get more of everything than you, you will undoubtedly not be able to aquire the skills needed to succeed in society the way that you should.
And then there's myself. The white male who faced all of the same problems the black males did, and I still get turned down at interviews and i still have ☺☺☺☺ jobs because I DO NOT have a good education. And, not to sound smug, I don't think i'm an ignorant person. I think my opinions, including the one stated here, are very much so valid. If i work my ass off with this job, while being fortunate enough not to pay rent and put myself through college, will I have a better life? Undoubtedly.
This goes for ethnicities as well. You have to stop pointing fingers, and realize that there's an inner spirit and strength that some do not have, and this comes from growing up being discriminated and the world of bull☺☺☺☺ that inner city African Americans face daily. Now, what about the black male that was fortunate enough to come from a family that is upper-middle class? Bet you he doesn't struggle at all.
If the city has no money, the schools have no money. The children aren't educated correctly, they drop out, can't find work, turn to crime and continue to damage the economy. Just look at jails.
Sorry that was long. I had a lot to say. This is all my own opinion, and should not be taken as complete fact. I don't want to debate about race, save it. I call it like I see it.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
An excellent question and I'm glad that I can help you with it, since I myself recently became interested in it. It was not easy for me to find the answer to it, but you went the easy way and just asked the people. There is one minus, they may give you the wrong answer, because I want to share an excellent article on the site http://www.analyticsinsight.net/how-does-minimum-wage-affect-the-automation-market/ so that you can be sure in the veracity of my words. Here you can find out what is the minimum wage and how it affects the automation market. I hope that I was able to help you.
I'm done with you and your trollish ignorance. Seriously this time.
Ah, so the superiority (technological, social, whatever) of the white race is to blame? But yet because white people are the pinnacle of the social hierarchy in North America, other races are clearly at a social disadvantage owing to the fact that they aren't quite so white as you.
What you're basically doing is saying "white people came out on top through sheer effort, so the current social situation is okay." Doesn't work like that.
If your issues are so great, I hear there's a political party that backs socially regressive policies you can vote for. Not sure how well they'll do against Obama in the next election, but hey, if you don't like their prospects, you can always run, yourself.
You know, I don't hang around this part of the forums very much, but in the threads I have been in, in *every single one of them*, you seem to make it a point to point out just how LGBT you are. I can't figure out if you are trying to prove someone or if you are insecure about it and overcompensating
You only think I do that. In reality, while I do bring it up a lot, it's hardly something I do every time.
No, other races are at a disatvantage because they didn't invent [insert something relevant here] or didn't win [insert important war here]. Any other group of individuals could have changed history. But the fact remains that discrimination isn't ever really about a single thing. Today it could be racial, during WWII it was religious. When you discuss a political topic, those sorts of statistics should be left out because there's so many exceptions and generalizations. Coming full circle, I'm against welfare not because I have something against a particular race, but because the government has decided for me that I should help somebody else. That should be my choice.
What you're basically doing is saying "white people came out on top through sheer effort, so the current social situation is okay." Doesn't work like that.
I never said it was ok, but I recognize it for what it is, just like you. It's really unfortunate that some employers may be racist, but the entire white race shouldn't be held accountable for that.
If your issues are so great, I hear there's a political party that backs socially regressive policies you can vote for. Not sure how well they'll do against Obama in the next election, but hey, if you don't like their prospects, you can always run, yourself.
Actually I can't run, there's age laws on a presidential candidacy, plus I have no political background so no one would take me seriously anyway. And yes, I doo vote a certain way, so?
If you don't know about the person in need, how then can you make a choice at all? Again taking same said person in "some far away city" in your own state, gets arrested for shop lifting food, and then is arrested, processed, housed, prosecuted and ect. Where as we can by pass all that trifle bother by handing out food stamps and lowering petty theft that therefore decreases theft, keeps jail costs low, and altogether keeps food prices lower.
So the invisible hand when it becomes visible in aggregate becomes a pimp hand that slaps mightily. The world is an overly complex place so we have people that control certain sections of our lives, including where our water, homes, food, and even where babies come from. Your sphere of personal responsibility from the getgo is low, even without the existence of government. Life is a bit more complicated than the Pepsi Challenge when making decisions.
-Some suggestion pursue works by people such as Ostrom that did a bit of work on the "tragedy of commons" issues in society without rose colored glasses.
Whites got a few things right, but Jews and Asians do culture better when it comes to social mobility. My own race and others are at a distinct disadvantage because of the inherent problems that our culture and locality places upon us. It's not a pretty fact, sure racism then and now does contribute. However, slow assimilation to not "become white" is equally stupid. Most races have highly educated men and women of the highest caliber that contributed to this society and other golden ages in other past societies. To ignore that is repulsive, and a real dereliction of our culture, not something that the whites "keeping us down."
We perpetuate bad parts of our culture that chain our own youth and damn them to become low lives. Those of us that have escaped the cycles of despair often do not "give back" and separate ourselves over generations from the underclasses. Whites do that too, it is a dark part of human nature that is tied universally to both rural and urban poor.
I don't know whether it's one portion of modern feminism to take into account privilege of biology or your own personal experiences with autism. But there are just somethings that are beyond skin color. I've had to ask myself some times why some people that came from the same neighborhood as I did why are they dead? And to be quite frank, when you sit down and look at a lot of it goes beyond skin color. It's about something more vivid, it's about culture, community, and other intangibles that are harder to define than fleeting nomenclature for races.
Biology is certainly a part, the other part is nurture and individual choice. To have a failure to take into account all sides is like blaming and claiming all your own personal success and failures by fiat of having a mutation and having that single mutation defining yourself in your entirety.
Look specifically at the plans put forward by some people like Newt Gingrich if you have a chance, on some of the specifics Republicans are more leftists than the so called "progressive liberal socialist" in the Democratic Party. The first thing you should know about American politics is never listen to what is said, but rather see what is done.
Also, I watched a speech by Obama tonight on the "smart grid" idea he's been selling:
1. He's open to localism to take charge to have different regions of the country put up a patch work system that's eventually tied together
2. Private investment mostly funding the tab
Interesting ☺☺☺☺, no? Almost sounds Republican.
That's a culture problem. Even looking at whites and the US government compared to the Canadian government there's a high amount of debt for consumption purposes. Here's a fun little stereotype that plays into that:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ghetto+fabulous
It's sad, but again that's the American culture. Buy now, pay later. Sure it works for homes and the like, but the consistent viral use of it has devastating effects. The American (this includes our white countrymen) was negative prior to the recession. That's some scary ☺☺☺☺.
As an aside, why do Europeans suck at integrating Arabs? To be honest, Arabs for the most part don't look too far from white and are actually counted as white in the States. Is is because of the Crusades?
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
I now work as a telemarketer. Am I happy to have a job that keeps me alive? Yes. Am I thankful or grateful that I have the job that I do? Hell no. I spent four and a half years of my life studying my buns off to learn something valuable to society. The knowledge I have is something beyond what a huge portion of the general public can't grasp. Am I happy that I'm wasting my abilities at a crappy hourly job? No.
Now, as for the "Is minimum wage really as soul crushing as it seems" question. If I were doing chemistry for the same pay I'm getting now, I would be happy as a clam. But I'm not, I'm doing something stupid and menial. It isn't the pay that depresses me, it's the work I am doing.
The part you quoted right above this is partially sarcastic.
Skin colour isn't the be-all and end-all, but like sex and gender it's one of the most highly visible things about someone.
This is why I call the Republicans a regressive party, actually. What they say they'll do and what they wind up doing are usually two entirely different things. But this is digressing pretty far from the point of this thread, so I'll shut up about it now.
Sp, first we had the "evidence", then we had the flaming and putting words in my mouth. Now we have the troll card. You really have pulled out all the stops to someone who has nothing to back up their claim with. What's next? Threatening to report me to a mod or something? I wouldn't be surprised.
I never did that, I only thought you directed something at me because you quoted me and then said it. If you quote someone, and then write something, it's assumed that you directed your point at the person you quoted. With your history of putting words in my mouth, I think it's reasonable that's what you were doing.
Alright, give me on example of me being overly "dense".
Oh, there's the troll card again.
I don't believe you.
Captain Morgan really put it way more eloquently then I ever could. Black people aren't in the position they are in because they are black, it is because of the neighborhoods and families they are born into. Which is a result of years of slavery, then segregation, and various amounts of oppression over that time. It is also because they all moved to towns like Chicago, Detroit and New York in the "Great Migration"(I think that's what it was called, I am not sure. Someone correct me if I'm wrong), which today are a mess, mostly due to some of the policies they have had over the years.
But in the past 30 or 40 years, many black people have broken out, and succeeded without the policies and such we had before. In fact, in the past 30 years, black women have had the highest median income growth. Is that the "oppression" you were talking about? Am I supposed to say, that is a sign that the system is now stacked against white people? No, of course not, that would be silly because there is no evidence and no reason to believe that.
Captain Morgan put it very well, and that was basically what I was trying to say, maybe I could have been more clear to get my point across.
But if you enjoy what you're doing and not hurting financially because of it, shoot, go for it!
The only thing I need to know is that the resource is coming from my own private property. (Am I forced to care about someone else?) Taxes are one thing, social handouts another. They are not the same. My personal belief is that the Government shouldn't be justified to essentially give one person's resources to another.
To you, social handouts keep people off the street, out of jails and overall save money (which is probably true), but to me it just breeds stagnation and laziness at the expense of the working class. Two different mindsets I think. I definitely agree something needs to be done, but I don't think welfare is it. At least not in its current form.
The rest of your post I 100% agree with. Thank you for stating it better than I.
Unfortunately, what actually occurred was your parents, guidance councilors, professors or you yourself failed to look into careers in the sciences having only an undergrad degree. There are very few science-oriented degrees that lead to satisfying careers in you only have an undergrad. One exception is engineering, but that's because it IS a professional degree. B.Sc.'s are not professional degrees - you need to do a Ph.D. to be considered a professional in your field of study. I would also say that spending 40k on tuition fees and the like suggests you didn't have the best marks (no scholarships) and hence how could you expect to get a job in a field that you're not at the top of? Tech/science fields are extremely competitive - having a degree means dick if you don't stand out in some manner.
There's a wonderful quote that a professor once told me: undergrads think they know everything, PhD's know they know nothing.
You are coming across with a position that makes it seem as though racial minorities are in a position where institutional racism is constantly working against them.
Which basically means those in power (white people) built a system and inherently that system plays better to white individuals.
Example: Black males make up 1/3 of the individuals in prison. Black males make up 13% of the male US population. That is census data.
Derived from court case data (nationally) was that black males are 50% more likely to serve jail time for the exact same crimes and with similar backgrounds than their white counterparts.
So if Joe (black) and Joe Bob (white) both have identical backgrounds and commit the same crime and have the same track record Joe is 50% more likely to serve time for his minor crime because of his skin color.
I can go out and get a bunch of sources and sites to throw at you that explain and talk about racism (which is different then prejudice), but really are you going to listen or believe any of it? Probably not. You have been dismissing other's opinions quite a bit.
You can see racism really easily when you look at President Obama. When was the last time a significant portion of the population called the president- that which we ALL fight against and hate and vilify- which is what the purpose of calling him a Muslim is. Infact people actually think that he is a Muslim. They buy this reoccurring rhetoric. Often presidents are called tyrants, dictators, or Hitler, or etc- but those are personifications- no one really thinks that president is actually anywhere near Hitler or a tyrant (if they know what that is), but with Obama people actually vilify him to an extreme extent.
And honestly, I believe it is because he is black. Because people can't come to grips with saying, "I hate our president because he is black, and a black president defies an ethno-centric government. I guess I can apply labels to him I can hate. Like Muslim."
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
Minorities have also built a system that is defensive against de jure and de facto segregation and racism. The institutions are there, the issues are the institutions within the community. Could there be better education system, infrastructure, and macro economic policy for urban and rural poor? Most certainly, but the Second Reconstruction has went a long way to purging the Jim Crow institutions.
Note black male, which has been a demographic problem in comparison with women that get more education and are often the center of black communities. The incarceration system does not help, but equally the culture in poor black areas is not conducive to it. Black men that hit the middle class, though, have a much lower incarceration rate, higher marriage prospects, and become a part of an upper class eventually that is quite welcoming.
Our drug policies suck ass, there's no other words for the War on Drugs that does not decrease drug use. Education and culture are far more guiding places for use.
Whites are wealthier, and can afford better lawyers. Public defenders, like other social workers, tend to be underpaid, understaffed, and overworked.
Where does Joe the Black and Joe Bob the White come from? If we're going to talk statistics, in specific rural towns Joe Bob would be screwed worse off than Joe the Black in suburbia.
Yes, some hate Obama because he's black(and ironically white), we already know that. The issue is mostly:
1. Birthers whether he was born in the states or not
-This happens to white politicians as well, look at the Adams v. Jackson election, it was far, far more vicious than what we see today.
2. "Colonial mentality" or whatever wordy nonsense that Gingrich came up with is common tactics today in politics, it is right up there with the "progressive liberal socialist agenda." Socialist not sexy enough for anarchists?
The amusing part though is other than "true believers"/die hards typically don't smoke that ☺☺☺☺. The only time where these become an issue is because of our primary set up, where people have to follow the "Nixon Plan" by pandering to the base during the primaries and during the general they rotate to become more moderate. A real reflection of our institutions, rather than having true open primaries that include independents in more states so that politicians can go tell those on either side of the far flung corners to be ignored.
People "do it" because the strategy works, take away the incentives and the problem becomes inundated. It is similar to how Olberman and now his best friend over at Fox are downsized or out of a job. People can only go so far before society tells them to screw off.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
While the system has improved and so have the socialized constructions of what "black people" do/are- it isn't over. Racism (as in a systematic, institutionalized sense) still exists. It is why within class tiers we still see anyone other than the privileged making less than their counterparts on average. Across the board. So unless we are saying that across the board minorities are always less capable we can easily see racism.
Attempts at justification just further entrench our society into racism.
Also- and this is not towards you, but arguments I have seen other people bringing up that only one type of -ism applies. I believe in the overarching kyriarchy. Which basically means that in the US the white, straight, suburban, cis-male has great advantages. Unfair advantages over the rest of society.
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Sch%C3%BCssler_Fiorenza
Actually, I'll add in these few works on top of the others I suggested earlier:
Bowling Alone by Robert D Putnam
The Culture of Narcissism and The Revolt of the Elites by Christopher Lasch
The Moral Consequences of Economic Growth by Benjamin M. Friedman
Generations by Neil Howe and William Strauss
Bowling Alone and The Moral Consequences would probably be more lock in step with some of your own beliefs, the Christopher Lasch work not so much. There's plenty of decent reviews on them on Amazon, and they tend to be worth the read. I read some of these works a few decades ago now, but I found them worthwhile still or at least some of it.
I'm really not going to change your mind to any degree with anecdotes or taking a meticulous deconstruction of modern feminism. I'm certain you've gotten the gist of my counter arguments already. However, if you're intellectually curious about the factors and intellectualism I draw from it is a far different tradition than feminism for all it's limitations for socio-economic factors in our civilization.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Thanks! I always appreciate new literature.
Really the only way to change minds is through experience and dialogue. And that is not to say that you couldn't change how I think over MTGSalvation; I am currently seeing the world through a lens that seems correct to me.
I'd say face to face it is much easier to listen to a position then over the internet. The unintentional hostility and anonymity are not conducive to an open dialogue.
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
Let's use Cleveland, simply because I am from there and It's the city I can provide the most accurate insight on. Cleveland was absolutely crushed when the steel industry collapsed. Thousands became unemployed. Thousands of white males. The African American population in Cleveland since then has increased dramatically.Where did all the unemployed white males stated earlier go? Most moved away to find WORK.
Inner city schools, especially the one I MYSELF went to (I'm your lower class white male, btw) were at a 9 black, 1 white ratio. Some classes I was the only white student. School was not easy for me. Constant outbursts from everyone around me made it very hard to concentrate in class, and I still, although it isn't actually factual, contribute this to the reason that I am currently working 40 hrs a week in a minimum wage job. This is what happens when you squeeze 40+ children into one class room with ONE teacher who is getting paid half of what they deserve to make. That's a problem in itself, and an entirely different issue, though.
Remember we are only talking about black people in Cleveland at this moment. Why is it that children who grow up being educated in a system like this often end up as a product of the system? Be it ☺☺☺☺ty minimum wage jobs, social security or jail. Why? We wronged African Americans. They have been discriminated against. This is undeniable. But, when do you stop and think about it? When do you actually start to just accept this? You. Don't. I consider the way I grew up a blessing. I am not racist. I am not a homophobe and I do not think my race and gender make me better than anyone. It's all in my character and I wouldn't be the person I am without seeing truly unfortunate people around me.
How many black children grow up without fathers? Why are father figures important? Father figures will show you hard work. You will follow their example. If your father works 50 hrs a week at minimum wage, odds are he's going to want a better life for his child that he actually STUCK AROUND to raise. The child will see a hard working man acting selflessly to support his family. They won't see a single mother, be her white or black, working her ass off and not being able to cut it while getting help from social security, which still isn't enough. This is a cycle. This will not stop unless the economy in ethnic areas increases. African American teens can't find jobs. White american teens can't find jobs in places like this, either. But, do you think it's easier for the white teen to get a job? Hell yes. Especially if the person hiring them in Human Resources is a white person themselves.
My point is, regardless of color, race, sexuality or creed, if you grow up in a ☺☺☺☺ty area surrounded by crime and oppression, your children most likely will too. And it repeats itself. When you grow up with poor education and the idea that whites get more chances, and whites get more of everything than you, you will undoubtedly not be able to aquire the skills needed to succeed in society the way that you should.
And then there's myself. The white male who faced all of the same problems the black males did, and I still get turned down at interviews and i still have ☺☺☺☺ jobs because I DO NOT have a good education. And, not to sound smug, I don't think i'm an ignorant person. I think my opinions, including the one stated here, are very much so valid. If i work my ass off with this job, while being fortunate enough not to pay rent and put myself through college, will I have a better life? Undoubtedly.
This goes for ethnicities as well. You have to stop pointing fingers, and realize that there's an inner spirit and strength that some do not have, and this comes from growing up being discriminated and the world of bull☺☺☺☺ that inner city African Americans face daily. Now, what about the black male that was fortunate enough to come from a family that is upper-middle class? Bet you he doesn't struggle at all.
If the city has no money, the schools have no money. The children aren't educated correctly, they drop out, can't find work, turn to crime and continue to damage the economy. Just look at jails.
Sorry that was long. I had a lot to say. This is all my own opinion, and should not be taken as complete fact. I don't want to debate about race, save it. I call it like I see it.
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