@Proph
Honestly Im in currently in the mindset of, "This game is over is killjoy is town", anyways
call that lazy, but that's how I view the game right now, which is probably why I'm not overly freaking out right now
ill reread Grape now
if there are any specific posts, you want me to look into, plz let me know, since I don't really iso dive like you do
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Proph
Honestly Im in currently in the mindset of, "This game is over is killjoy is town", anyways
call that lazy, but that's how I view the game right now, which is probably why I'm not overly freaking out right now
ill reread Grape now
if there are any specific posts, you want me to look into, plz let me know, since I don't really iso dive like you do
I guess like, on a macro level, investigate worlds where an Eco/Grapefruit team is possible. As for specific posts.. maybe like try and figure out if his posts are crafted to look good vs his thoughts being organic or not. Like, you've seen my scum posts - they're crafted to specifically look good and appeal to the playerbase. Do you see that coming from Grape?
And I guess if his tunnel on me is real or not, or if it's coming from a more agenda-based mindset.
Wisp: Obviously, but if I get lynched we lose. So I would like to convince people not to do that.
you had 3 day phases to do that, but its ok, cause in town you worlds, you cross voting with Eco, is one of the best positions for town right now, I think
The first post worth mentioning from him is #30. It starts with his saying he believes knows who Cross is, then is followed by a decent progression leading to a pressure vote on Wisp. He also criticized DV a bit. When DV clapped back, Proph reacted in a relaxed way and continued his pressure of Wisp.
His tone for the next 100 posts is casual and inquisitive. #130 is the next post of note where he continues to question people about their views, but there continues to be a subtle focus on Wisp that makes me think there's actually something going on in his head that he thinks Wisp is suspicious.
#160 is another good post. Cross gives Proph a lazy townish read and Proph claps back against it, saying it's not a good tell. Proph's points on Axel and DV I think have aged well here as well.
His transitions seem pretty natural, as with his transition to DV in 375. He even has a bunch of reasons in 377, which are fine.
He has a pretty in depth townread of Osie in 499. It starts out saying he doesn't have a good idea of his scumrange, and expanding that his idea of Osie's play this game started off pretty null, and his reads wall didn't do much to change that. The fact that he was being impersonated seems to have been distracting him from reading him correctly. Proph and Osie keep interacting, and Proph begins warming up to him. Near the end of the post, he summarizes it as "not seeing malice" and "reminds me of me" basically. And basically this post seems to refect his actual honest thoughts, and that's a lot of thoughts to fake as scum.
TBH I'm not a huge fan on 501 voting me for PoE instead of an actual scumread, but that might also be because I know the vote is wrong.
I also like 593 as an honest answer as well.
Ok so I think I've proved what I'm trying to say well enough. Overall, I think Proph is playing honestly, and his transitions make me think he doesn't have the agenda inherent in scum. There's also effort but that's not actually a tell.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Wisp: Obviously, but if I get lynched we lose. So I would like to convince people not to do that.
you had 3 day phases to do that, but its ok, cause in town you worlds, you cross voting with Eco, is one of the best positions for town right now, I think
If Eco is scum I agree. I think he almost has to be?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
kj comes off as super oblivious to the larger gamestate
like he goes "we have to be doing x" as if that hasn't already been set in stone ever since the day began
he says like "eco almost has to be?" scum when eco should be nearly lock scum from his perspective
he does this iso on me which goes up to like day 1 and doesnt cover day 2/3 and if you think I'm scum at this point omegalul
it scares me
these are the things I would use to call Killjoy town, these are the things I used to call him town here
but it feels kinda of nutty to be this oblivious to the game state, like even for Killjoy standards
Quote from Grape »
@Cantrip I don't get your town read on crossbell at all. You only added two details beyond engaged and solvey=town. The first was the Proph roleplay was a factor in other people (DV and myself notably) scum reading the wall post and you having a guess to the identity and projecting that to the town meta. I have a hard time seeing how that equals a top town read.
He calls out Cantrip here, but I don't think I can say anything in regards to them not being aligned here
(KJ, Dota, and Cantrip are murky soup
calls this group all null, which is correct for the time it was made
Someone else mentioned but the wording on Axel is weird when paired with the Wisp and Proph reads. If he didn't have town reads then whatever but that read feels wrong coming after two town reads.
in reference to GJ's thoughts on Cantrips DV read
Quote from Cantrip »
]The meta read is actually playing a lot stronger here than I think I realized. Each subsequent post makes me feel like it's more likely who I think it is, and I'm freaking loving it. (Spoiler: I'm probably completely wrong, because I'm almost always wrong on these things, but something something blind squirrel...) I'm also happy with the volume of output. Again, not necessarily town on its own, but in combination with everything, feels indicative to me. The Axel read still doesn't meld with me (nor the DoTa one, tbf), but the meta dive at least lets me see where Cross is coming from.
we get a hrmmm in reference to this, whatever that means
Quote from Grape »
Proph: wolf
DoTA: wolf
Cantrip: wolf
Wisp: Town
Axelrod: town
KJ: Wolf
Have everyone but Wisp and Axel at slightly above random to be a wolf.
in reference to my game
Quote from Grape »
As for Eco his heavy interactions with Proph don't strike me as W/W stuff. Feels like Eco is genuinely trying to figure Proph out despite having him as a town read. Time to actually read the walls and reply to stuff.
more team references to Proph lol
meh iso diving like this is hard for my brain
Grape has been asking really good questions to both Killjoy and Eco
Ya, I dont really think he is aligned with either of them?
I don't really believe scum!Grape crafts posts this well, nor is he able to constantly poke at you if you are town and he is a wolf. Its hard to read the tunneling, maybe if this wasn't Grape it might bother me, but like I know he does it, and now he is re-evaluating you, which doesn't really make sense if he is a wolf? I mean he already has the misyeet he needs here between Killjoy or Eco
i'm wondering if the correct lunch is eco, because he is scum in kj/eco and grape/eco worlds
but then we lose to the kj/grape team if that is a thing
===
to-do list:
- evaluate all the three possible teams (eco/kj, kj/grape, grape/eco) and try to cross one off
- look at pirates mafia
- do the meta dive for killjoy
- do the meta dive for eco (?)
I just got out of work so I'm gonna try to enjoy my friday for the next several hours
If people are on tonight, I'll be on, but I don't want to keep thinking about this game 24/7 like I have been doing over the past couple of days
also I just find it really friggin funny that KJ is townreading me hard for 499 when that was the post that set Grapefruit off on me in the first place
Classic no one posting for the past six hours :dag:
I guess I'll look at this game again tomorrow morning, but if the scumteam doesn't include KJ then let me wish you guys a pre-emptive congratulations in advance.
Classic no one posting for the past six hours :dag:
I guess I'll look at this game again tomorrow morning, but if the scumteam doesn't include KJ then let me wish you guys a pre-emptive congratulations in advance.
/I told you I wouldn't be able to post at work.
I'm gonna get up and try my best tomorrow though, it's 3am atm and I'm tired.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
At this point KJ has to know his goose is cooked and is just anti-spewing. If he was truly trying to figure Proph out he would have done more than just use D1 and say his transitions are honest without further elaboration. D2 and D3 is where the nuance on Proph is, but KJ simply has no interest.
/I told you I wouldn't be able to post at work.
I'm gonna get up and try my best tomorrow though, it's 3am atm and I'm tired.
Didn't mean you, was just kinda hoping one of Eco/Wisp/Grape would stop by and work on one of the tasks I had on the little to-do list I posted.
Also I feel compelled to mention two things:
- The posting gaps from Grapefruit unnerve me on a gut level. It reminds me of my own scum game, where I would certainly be capable of goodposting for a short period of time, but then would take long breaks from the thread because I hated being scum. I know that reading people off of activity is bad (and I know that other people besides Wisp have had similar posting breaks) but I felt the need to at least mention this.
- I had a dream last night where Togs replaced in for Wisp. Grapefruit and Togs ended up being the scum team after we mislunched KJ
Quote from Eco »
At this point KJ has to know his goose is cooked and is just anti-spewing. If he was truly trying to figure Proph out he would have done more than just use D1 and say his transitions are honest without further elaboration. D2 and D3 is where the nuance on Proph is, but KJ simply has no interest.
This is all factually true, but Eco's tone also slightly unnerves me since it's so flat. It doesn't feel like he... genuinely believes he's catching scum here, is what I guess I'm trying to say?
Man, all I have to say about this endgame is that it feels like I'm jamming in my square pegs into round holes.
The Eco/KJ team I've settled on is so friggin bizarre because KJ doesn't feel like he's caught scum, and also Eco/KJ both chose to /defend/ me. It's so weird. In the world where both are scum, I would have expected one of them to at least push against me to try and go for the win instead of boxing themselves into crossvoting.
It feels like no matter what I do, we will end up losing, and I'll feel really bad when postgame hits.
I want to vote Eco as well, but if he's our last townie and for some reason GF/KJ is our scumteam then I'll feel doubly bad since at least Eco is trying to play the game lol.
I knew this game was gonna be fairly scumsided going in but I'll still feel bad if I lose
I want to vote Eco as well, but if he's our last townie and for some reason GF/KJ is our scumteam then I'll feel doubly bad since at least Eco is trying to play the game lol.
I knew this game was gonna be fairly scumsided going in but I'll still feel bad if I lose
mountainous games are as scum sided as the level of effort of the players in the game, which for the most part is usually poor
I'm kinda busy today but we have like 11 hours left, so I'll see if I can work on some of the items from the to-do list I have there.
I should have spent my Friday evening on this game LMAO.
Read token power 4 for KJ's scum game, read Pirates Mafia for GF.
I have to say that one thing that makes me actually scumread KJ is that he hasn't tunneled or pressured anyone all game. Normally I'm pretty sure KJ has like some weird focus on a specific player and tunnels them as town right? But he hasn't done that at all this game? Can anyone confirm?
I'm kinda busy today but we have like 11 hours left, so I'll see if I can work on some of the items from the to-do list I have there.
I should have spent my Friday evening on this game LMAO.
Read token power 4 for KJ's scum game, read Pirates Mafia for GF.
I have to say that one thing that makes me actually scumread KJ is that he hasn't tunneled or pressured anyone all game. Normally I'm pretty sure KJ has like some weird focus on a specific player and tunnels them as town right? But he hasn't done that at all this game? Can anyone confirm?
i mean ya, that's what I tend to look for in killjoy
all factually true, but Eco's tone also slightly unnerves me since it's so flat. It doesn't feel like he... genuinely believes he's catching scum here, is what I guess I'm trying to say?
Are you really expecting me to be an emotional player here? KJ just is boxed out scum. Maybe I'd be more excited if I wasn't inexplicably being listed as his buddy and having to gear up for a big F3 fight.
Oh, and @Proph: You were saying that Eco should have been confirmed scum from my perspective instead of just "has to be, right?" but that's not the case, as I haven't eliminated Wisp/Grape worlds yet. He could still have been town.
FTR my gut is leaning Wisp/Eco based on how they're handling my slot. It's not for the high low thing either, though that may actually be a thing I have no real way to prove it. It's like a blind guy trying to point at a rainbow. There's just no way to know I'm right.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I know it's the plan but I would have thought you would be more resistant to it, since from your pov one of your scum suspects is telling you to vote his buddy
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I know it's the plan but I would have thought you would be more resistant to it, since from your pov one of your scum suspects is telling you to vote his buddy
why is grape not scum here btw?
Again, I never said Grape WASN'T scum. That's not what gut means.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I know that, but I was just curious to see why you went to eco/wisp first as the team over grape, especially when imo wisp has been in a league of his own in terms of towniness
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Okay, here's some KJ meta analysis if the game doesn't end randomly while I'm typing this post lol.
Token Power 4
He gets mixed up on Rodemy early game, and then is able to pivot off of this in this post:
So I spent today at work trying to figure out where the miscommunication was between me and Sunglasses. That whole conversation felt like he felt he was right, but he couldn't be because what I was saying was contradicting him.
But I realized something: I made a jump in logic that was incorrect.
I saw those questions, and he was asking shadow about something he thought was odd. I jumped from odd to scummy, and that's where that came from.
So there's some merit to his reaction. It might have been premature, but I'm not ready to make the jump to that being alignment indicative for Pizza. Partially because that wagon that sprouted up on him has my attention.
@Shadow: What do you think of Pizza's #44?
He is able to put himself into the mindset of others a little bit if he is scum, so that's a good thing to note.
He does a whole big post where he summarizes what is going on and offers some.. decent-ish analysis on top of it? The thing that strikes me about this post is that KJ has a very solid understanding of what is going on in the gamestate, which isn't really representative here.
Shadow: Did you ever answer my question about #44? Also what is your read on Rhand?
tom: Do you have any other reads besides Grape?
Grape: Talk to me about tom. You seem to be scumreading him for scumreading you because info, but he's not. Is there something I'm missing there, or did you miss the post where he gave his reason?
Actually. Lets start a new wagon.
Vote Rhand
Asks some token questions and votes one of his scumreads. Pretty bog standard scum play so far.
The first point is a disagreement of others thoughts. People can be wrong and still be compenent scumhunters.
Rhand doesn't have to be town to correctly townread someone? It could be TMI, it could just be fake townhunting. It doesn't make him town.
The third point is an opinion that is coloring my read on him, that's true. But it might not be correct.
"I feel like there's mafia on that train" is a response to the wagon popping up suddenly/my townread of Pizza.
I don't think Rhand pushed the wagon. No, he did the opposite.
WTF are you doing?
It's funny that he's sparring with Wisp in that game as well, because.. well, a similar thing is happening in this game. Wisp lays into him for this, and KJ goes "wtf are you doing".
Yes I think there's very likely scum on the wagon.
But my gut is telling me it's you and Rhand,
It could be grape and Rhand. It could be you and grape. It could be you and Rhand. It could even be Tom or shadow. But things that have happened make me lean towards you and Rhand.
How is this unclear?
He's particularly pushing a desired gamestate here, since he's hyperfocusing on Rhand and Wisp. He also uses gut a /lot/ as for reads justification.
Last, that's what PoE is. I don't have a specific town read of you, but I can't eliminate you as scum either. Also, if people have a string of NAI posts, they usually are >rand nontown because town tend to do town things just by virtue of playing to their win con.
With regards to your question, it felt like you'd already formed a conclusion, and that you didn't really want an answer to that question. Rhand felt like he wanted to know, so I answered him.
So what I take from this is I was unclear in my conclusions? I'm unsure how it's unclear though. I'll restate it later I guess to see if I can help that happen later.
He's saying that same ***** as this game. "I don't have a townread on you, but I can't eliminate you as scum either" is classic "keeping people in the PoE" and he did say something similar this game as well.
so it 's either tom or rod (still townreading pizza) with grape or rhand.
I'm seeing Grape claiming they might be the nk but the bus driver drove him away from it and it hit Last.
But, with claimed roles, the BD would have to be the role not in the game, so someone's lying about it. Which means it's one of the scum roles. And it can't be tom or rodemy, since rodemy for sure commuted tom.
It really could be either grape or rhand, where Grape is lying about being bus driven to himself to grant towncred by being the kill and Rhand just doesn't have a doc shot. I'm leaning Grape atm, but it's always tom I think here.
Willing to vote him when we're done. We can figure out a partner tomorrow.
Shows more awareness of the gamestate, is working towards a particular goal and agenda.
So far the only thing I've got from his scum game is that he has particular goals in mind and shows more of an awareness of the gamestate. Let's see his town game.
80s Fun Mafia Whatever
He reacts pretty strangely to a (fake) daykill attempt by Grape.
He asks a lot of questions. He also posts way more (getting up to a postcount of 230).
Town
Grape:
Grape started out the game with a bang (OR NOT APPERENTLY) but I kind of like his 160 as a reaction to the progression of the game in reaction to his (not actually) daykill. He has a habit of strongly townreading me early, and I think he's been right every time (though I think he was scum once) so it's not out of the ordinary for him to be townreading me out the gate.
I don't agree with his townread of HR in 383, I think it's too early for that.
I'm also slightly paranoid of the sheepvote onto Sloth in 402. In that same post, he asserts that there "should not be scumreads on HR" which, again, might be too early for that but the overtness of that is... kinda too much for scum maybe?
Also, this may be too overt, but Grape claiming that something is a "great reason to scumread Rhand" in 519 very obviously oozes scum motivation, and is thus an oppertunisitic vote on Rhand. The question is: is it too obvious? Grape's better scum than that, isn't he?
Eco:
Eco goes here because his posting has been reasonable, I can generally follow the logic, and there was a bit there in our questioning of Ignoramus that he was on the same page thought processwise. I also kind of like that he's analyzing the focus on himself. He also does what I do in that he attacks the problem from several sides (see 371, where he tries to get Axel to analyze his townreads that are scumreading him) which usually shows a genuine attempt to solve a puzzle he doesn't have all the pieces to.
I will say I disagree with 384, saying that Axel's long post about Eco vs. Igno is possibly negatively relevent to Axel's alignment. Specifically he says it's a lot of words to say that Axel will do the same, but whether or not Axel would do that is not relevent to Eco's alignment.
Townish
Vaimes:
So I'm rereading Vaimes and I don't hate him as much as I did. 167 seems a good attempt to poke Grape from odd angles, and is a fair analysis. I find myself agreeing with a good portion of his contentful posts (167, 282)and the ones I don't agree with (284,285) seem to have been arrived at naturally. My initial respose to not liking Vaimes was due to the fact that our reactions to things tend to be the same, and I felt like the incredulity in 350 in particular was out of nowhere and a bit too intense to be real.
Axelrod:
I'm not a huge fan of 311, where he says he says his list is similar to Vaimes barring Igno, but later when I ask him to commit to that he just says no. Normally I'd lightly townread such defiance but his response feels less "I haven't really thought about it" and more "I'm not going to commit on placement because i don't want to" which townie defiance would likely be more "you can't make me" or soemthing similar.
The read about Eco vs Igno is fair in 376. I can follow it, and it's not unreasonable. There' s a little bias in it, but it doesn't feel initially malicious.
I don't hate 536. The way he handled Rhand's post feels natural, as if he actually had those problems with it.
Actually, if I'm putting too much emphasis on the defiant non-commital in 311, I kind of... don't hate what else he's been doing.
TerRaine:
I still think, even though she's claimed that it's within her personality, the push on Eco is natural. It likely comes from a place of not knowing his alignment.
The list in 327 is a bit superficial, but maybe not unreasonable.
The fact that she's done a major push on two of my townreads is a thing I'm noticing though.
It also is worth noting that despite her having the highest postcount at the moment, I have the least confident read on her. That's kind of in the back of my mind rn but I'll leave her in town because genuine.
Null
ZDS:
I can kinda make sense of his read on Ignoramus in 140, and it's a nice train of thought in terms of possible determining motive. I think that depends on Ignoramus's alignment though, as it's not as objectively true as I'd like it to be. He's thinking outside the box, which is good. I just worry that this type of read is the kind of obscure off the wall read that can be used to recolor scummy behavior to be town. Though, I think if the read was made sincerely, it's likely accurate.
The complete flip on Eco in 469 is fine though. It's similar to the read on Igno, but was predicated with ZDS up his Brexit up to then, which would be counterproductive because he could have easily gotten Eco executed if he wasn't careful. It's not out of [Eco/ZDS] range to distance/bus like that, but if it was theatre wouldn't Eco recipricate?
But then he votes Eco again in 538 and I hate it. It's completely unconnected to his other thoughts on Eco. The read just kind of materialized after an ISO. It makes sense, but Jack's posting being NAI is subjective and I wish ZDS would have questioned Eco a bit more on this before hardjumping on him if this was real. BUT I could logically see that read coming from an ISO. I'm just not a fan of his progression not having a trail here.
The position that Rhand is townish for not being able to figure out what to do feels like a bit of a softball, and I disagree with it.
Highroller:
He hasn't done much this game, but Elderlings just ended so I'm not willing to commit to a read on this slot just yet. I was hard scumreading him for Not Being Town, but he was and apperently that's just what he does. My earlier townread was a bit because I was scumreading him in Elderlings and I could follow his thoughts slightly better here than I could there, so, different play=different alignment, right? Since that's not the case, I don't wanna jump to any conclusions here, and want him to do more before I form a solid opinion.
One sidenote: One thing that may point to a town HR is the "currently listening to" music blurbs. If it's not role related, it might point to a relaxed, carefree HR this game, but I'm not confident in that this early in the game.
Ignoramus:
So originally, I had a noob town read on them, but they're not noob enough for that read to be relevent.Their playstyle is, by admission, generally scummy (shallow, weak reads) so I can't really read that as AI for them. Thus there's nothing REALLY telling in their posts, though I have the weirdest feeling they're trying to pocket me. From the gut/persisting townread on me out the gate to copying my list style. It's not super solid, but also I don't think it's completely baseless either.
I specifically don't like how they flipped on Eco and Axel in 456 because the read on Axel is based on someone else's read. and the Eco read doesn't make a whole lot sense to me, but again, maybe this is just a thing they do. I'd like to take more time and do research into their other games to see how much of this is normal/AI for them. I don't wanna fall into the trap I fell into in Elderlings where I read HR as Scummy In A Vacuum and didn't check to see if that was normal for them. I'm not gonna let this all go forever, but since they claim they thrive off of wolf spew, I'm willing to let them live a bit to maybe last long enough for a wolf to die to see what they do with that.
Scummy
Sloth:
He hasn't really done anything. He says he wants to put as little effort into this game as possible, true, but still. He's blankvoted Rhand, and hinted that me and possibly Grape are scum because... theatre revolving around the daykill mix up? It's unclear.
The one thing I found noteworthy is that he stubbornly hugged his scumread of Rhand when I asked him to analyze whether or not a quick wagon popping up (even at Rhand's own behest) would, in a vacuum mean anything to his alignment, and instead of taking it into his analysis, he ignores it, claiming that "context matters". While that's true, it still makes sense to look at all angles, and his reluctence to do that is scummy to me.
Jackarito:
Jack has some big posts, which is good. I'm seeing him describe Igno as a "big red flag" and HR as "not a big fan of" but in the following post he votes HR because it's more recent. I feel like that language doesn't match the vote, and I feel like they should have added to the pressure already there on Igno instead of pushing somewhere else. It may well be a vanity scumread on Igno while pushing away on a townie. This is possibly compounded by the fact that in 451 they admit they might be wrong on HR, but don't actually make the decision on where to move the vote. Then he goes back to it in 540 where he's still scumreading Igno, but not voting for either now. I sense the scumread on HR is actually fake, though whether or not this is actually "pushing away from a buddy" or "latching on to executable town" is still up in the air.
Scum:
Rhand:
Rhand starts off the game fluffing, like the rest of us do, though that's unusual for him I think... enough so that it's worth commenting on but not enough to assign as alignment telling. I still dislike that he decided to complain and flail instead of trying to do anything. I'm specifically against the fact that the one thing he DOES do to drum up content (asking us to vote him) he doesn't even analyze. I can't see Rhand asking us to vote him without a plan to analyze afterward.
I believe that he didn't grasp the subtle context of 'townread vs. read' regardless of alignment. The timing of it might be suspect as he was under pressure to have reads, but for now I'm gonna throw that in the NAI category
His reads list in 346 doesn't mention any of his nulls, nor Grape, nor Terraine. He later says that Grape is a 'total gut read' when Grape asks him. I get that he was rushing, but wouldn't he logically have said that after he said me and Eco were town in his list?I guess that's not super telling, given I don't actually know how much of a rush he was in.
Then he tunnels on Vaimes for a while, which is NAI.
I kinda like his take on Sloth though, that despite his postcount, he is low content. I also had this though.
However, 429 is a weird post. He's interacting with someone he believes to be town, but the post goes from "my reads aren't strong, you might be paranoid" to a series of accusatory questions that I'm not sure are asked of a townread generally. Also of note here, I don't think scum!Rhand makes this post to scum!Eco. The progression from just answering Eco to "maybe you're paranoid" to "why you do scummy things" don't make sense in that context, nor from a logical progression perspective.
Colorful List
Grape/Eco/Vaimes/Axel/TerRaine
ZDS/HR/Igno
Sloth/Jack/Rhand
Note: ZDS is gray because despite all he's done, I keep not being able to come down on one side or the other. HR and Igno I could come down, but want to wait to see what they do later.
THIS POST. I'm looking for something like this post for this game. In this post he does a brief summary of his reads on everyone and is generally just way more proactive/solving in that game than in this one.
Like he has much more nuance in his questions and posts more general gamestate evaluation posts in that game than in this one.
Ok so, I feel like regardless of Rhands alignment, the gymnastics required to justify his vote makes Jack slightly more likely scum here?
Vote Jackarito
He catches Jack red-handed here. He hasn't done anything like that for ***** in this game, he's just been hammering people.
Looking at Jack's ISO in Prison Block.
Jack seems different in Prison Block. More open, more natural then this game.
Actually friggin caring about how to read other people.
@Eco: TBH I was hoping for a pat on the back having caught Jack. The read on Rhand appeared from nowhere, and like I said, Rhand might be scum, but Jack def is for the gymnastics needed to justify that vote on Rhand. I'd rather got for the sure thing.
I remember Jack in Prison Block, and his posting had very clear, if rambly thinking behind it.
But talk to me about 625. You (should be) currently scumreading Jack, and you think Rhand is scum. Wouldn't flipping onto Rhand when Rhand wasn't very high in his PoE be exactly what scum!Jack would do?
@ZDS: It could be both bussing and opportunistic though. Jack would have been tracking buddy!Rhand's transgressions and when the tide was impossibly out of favor he cobbles them together in a scumread and votes.
Also AFAICT he was very lightly scumreading him up until 569. I outlined his whole progression in 592, do you disagree with that?
Were you townreading Jack prior to this? Refresh my memory.
@Vaimes: How significantly would my interrogation change him though? I would expect a similar naturalness to come from him even during that. A casualness perhaps?
@Rhand: Now that youy're caught up: reads list?
Fine responses and again, he's actually caring about what other people provide and what other people think. Like, reading his ISO in that game versus this one is kinda night and day. In 80s Mafia he's way more proactive, he's way more solvey, and he actually cares about the outcome of the game. In this game he hasn't made any contributions to the larger gamestate but more importantly just hasn't shown the range of thought and care like he did in 80s Mafia. In that game, he is basically me FFS - he does a lot of ISOing his scumspects, he does good post-flip analysis (I know we didn't get a scumflip but shrug) and he does good gamestate summations on where he's at.
I'm only through like 3/4s of his ISO but I've seen enough. KJ is definitely capable of playing just BETTER if he's town, and he hasn't in this game. I don't really care now about the weird gamestate evaluations he has. The thing I care more about is that he definitely has the potential to play like an active, engaged, solving player, but I haven't seen any of that in this game. He's been passive, lurky, only around for EoDs, and hasn't advocated for *****. I don't think this game is KJ's towngame.
Honestly Im in currently in the mindset of, "This game is over is killjoy is town", anyways
call that lazy, but that's how I view the game right now, which is probably why I'm not overly freaking out right now
ill reread Grape now
if there are any specific posts, you want me to look into, plz let me know, since I don't really iso dive like you do
I guess like, on a macro level, investigate worlds where an Eco/Grapefruit team is possible. As for specific posts.. maybe like try and figure out if his posts are crafted to look good vs his thoughts being organic or not. Like, you've seen my scum posts - they're crafted to specifically look good and appeal to the playerbase. Do you see that coming from Grape?
And I guess if his tunnel on me is real or not, or if it's coming from a more agenda-based mindset.
Idk. This is a lot of macro in the end lol.
The first post worth mentioning from him is #30. It starts with his saying he believes knows who Cross is, then is followed by a decent progression leading to a pressure vote on Wisp. He also criticized DV a bit. When DV clapped back, Proph reacted in a relaxed way and continued his pressure of Wisp.
His tone for the next 100 posts is casual and inquisitive. #130 is the next post of note where he continues to question people about their views, but there continues to be a subtle focus on Wisp that makes me think there's actually something going on in his head that he thinks Wisp is suspicious.
#160 is another good post. Cross gives Proph a lazy townish read and Proph claps back against it, saying it's not a good tell. Proph's points on Axel and DV I think have aged well here as well.
His transitions seem pretty natural, as with his transition to DV in 375. He even has a bunch of reasons in 377, which are fine.
He has a pretty in depth townread of Osie in 499. It starts out saying he doesn't have a good idea of his scumrange, and expanding that his idea of Osie's play this game started off pretty null, and his reads wall didn't do much to change that. The fact that he was being impersonated seems to have been distracting him from reading him correctly. Proph and Osie keep interacting, and Proph begins warming up to him. Near the end of the post, he summarizes it as "not seeing malice" and "reminds me of me" basically. And basically this post seems to refect his actual honest thoughts, and that's a lot of thoughts to fake as scum.
TBH I'm not a huge fan on 501 voting me for PoE instead of an actual scumread, but that might also be because I know the vote is wrong.
I also like 593 as an honest answer as well.
Ok so I think I've proved what I'm trying to say well enough. Overall, I think Proph is playing honestly, and his transitions make me think he doesn't have the agenda inherent in scum. There's also effort but that's not actually a tell.
Day end is 24 hours right? Not within the next 12 or so? I won't be able to post for the next 12 hours at least.
kj comes off as super oblivious to the larger gamestate
like he goes "we have to be doing x" as if that hasn't already been set in stone ever since the day began
he says like "eco almost has to be?" scum when eco should be nearly lock scum from his perspective
he does this iso on me which goes up to like day 1 and doesnt cover day 2/3 and if you think I'm scum at this point omegalul
these are the things I would use to call Killjoy town, these are the things I used to call him town here
but it feels kinda of nutty to be this oblivious to the game state, like even for Killjoy standards
He calls out Cantrip here, but I don't think I can say anything in regards to them not being aligned here
calls this group all null, which is correct for the time it was made
in reference to GJ's thoughts on Cantrips DV read
we get a hrmmm in reference to this, whatever that means
in reference to my game
more team references to Proph lol
meh iso diving like this is hard for my brain
Grape has been asking really good questions to both Killjoy and Eco
Ya, I dont really think he is aligned with either of them?
I don't really believe scum!Grape crafts posts this well, nor is he able to constantly poke at you if you are town and he is a wolf. Its hard to read the tunneling, maybe if this wasn't Grape it might bother me, but like I know he does it, and now he is re-evaluating you, which doesn't really make sense if he is a wolf? I mean he already has the misyeet he needs here between Killjoy or Eco
but then we lose to the kj/grape team if that is a thing
===
to-do list:
- evaluate all the three possible teams (eco/kj, kj/grape, grape/eco) and try to cross one off
- look at pirates mafia
- do the meta dive for killjoy
- do the meta dive for eco (?)
that way i won't feel as bad if I lose
If people are on tonight, I'll be on, but I don't want to keep thinking about this game 24/7 like I have been doing over the past couple of days
also I just find it really friggin funny that KJ is townreading me hard for 499 when that was the post that set Grapefruit off on me in the first placeI guess I'll look at this game again tomorrow morning, but if the scumteam doesn't include KJ then let me wish you guys a pre-emptive congratulations in advance.
This is in 19 hours and 35 minutes.
I'm gonna get up and try my best tomorrow though, it's 3am atm and I'm tired.
I will be voting in about 6 hours.
but I will be periodically checking the thread at work
Also I feel compelled to mention two things:
- The posting gaps from Grapefruit unnerve me on a gut level. It reminds me of my own scum game, where I would certainly be capable of goodposting for a short period of time, but then would take long breaks from the thread because I hated being scum. I know that reading people off of activity is bad (and I know that other people besides Wisp have had similar posting breaks) but I felt the need to at least mention this.
- I had a dream last night where Togs replaced in for Wisp. Grapefruit and Togs ended up being the scum team after we mislunched KJ
This is all factually true, but Eco's tone also slightly unnerves me since it's so flat. It doesn't feel like he... genuinely believes he's catching scum here, is what I guess I'm trying to say?
The Eco/KJ team I've settled on is so friggin bizarre because KJ doesn't feel like he's caught scum, and also Eco/KJ both chose to /defend/ me. It's so weird. In the world where both are scum, I would have expected one of them to at least push against me to try and go for the win instead of boxing themselves into crossvoting.
It feels like no matter what I do, we will end up losing, and I'll feel really bad when postgame hits.
I am getting unnerved by Killjoy as well
and I know both me and you will be around to hammer whichever one we want regardless of grapefruit
I knew this game was gonna be fairly scumsided going in but I'll still feel bad if I lose
I should have spent my Friday evening on this game LMAO.
Read token power 4 for KJ's scum game, read Pirates Mafia for GF.
I have to say that one thing that makes me actually scumread KJ is that he hasn't tunneled or pressured anyone all game. Normally I'm pretty sure KJ has like some weird focus on a specific player and tunnels them as town right? But he hasn't done that at all this game? Can anyone confirm?
Are you really expecting me to be an emotional player here? KJ just is boxed out scum. Maybe I'd be more excited if I wasn't inexplicably being listed as his buddy and having to gear up for a big F3 fight.
FTR my gut is leaning Wisp/Eco based on how they're handling my slot. It's not for the high low thing either, though that may actually be a thing I have no real way to prove it. It's like a blind guy trying to point at a rainbow. There's just no way to know I'm right.
SIR YES SIR
Vote Eco
I'll check off stuff on the to do list today if the game doesn't abruptly end
like does he think that wisp is telling him to vote his buddy? lol
why is grape not scum here btw?
It still could def be Grape, my gut is just leaning EcoWisp for the way they're both pushing me atm.
Eco is worse than Wisp for sure, but I've felt that Wisp has wanted me dead for a while now.
Token Power 4
He gets mixed up on Rodemy early game, and then is able to pivot off of this in this post:
He is able to put himself into the mindset of others a little bit if he is scum, so that's a good thing to note.
He does a whole big post where he summarizes what is going on and offers some.. decent-ish analysis on top of it? The thing that strikes me about this post is that KJ has a very solid understanding of what is going on in the gamestate, which isn't really representative here.
Asks some token questions and votes one of his scumreads. Pretty bog standard scum play so far.
It's funny that he's sparring with Wisp in that game as well, because.. well, a similar thing is happening in this game. Wisp lays into him for this, and KJ goes "wtf are you doing".
He's particularly pushing a desired gamestate here, since he's hyperfocusing on Rhand and Wisp. He also uses gut a /lot/ as for reads justification.
He's saying that same ***** as this game. "I don't have a townread on you, but I can't eliminate you as scum either" is classic "keeping people in the PoE" and he did say something similar this game as well.
Shows more awareness of the gamestate, is working towards a particular goal and agenda.
So far the only thing I've got from his scum game is that he has particular goals in mind and shows more of an awareness of the gamestate. Let's see his town game.
80s Fun Mafia Whatever
He reacts pretty strangely to a (fake) daykill attempt by Grape.
He asks a lot of questions. He also posts way more (getting up to a postcount of 230).
THIS POST. I'm looking for something like this post for this game. In this post he does a brief summary of his reads on everyone and is generally just way more proactive/solving in that game than in this one.
Like he has much more nuance in his questions and posts more general gamestate evaluation posts in that game than in this one.
He catches Jack red-handed here. He hasn't done anything like that for ***** in this game, he's just been hammering people.
Actually friggin caring about how to read other people.
Fine responses and again, he's actually caring about what other people provide and what other people think. Like, reading his ISO in that game versus this one is kinda night and day. In 80s Mafia he's way more proactive, he's way more solvey, and he actually cares about the outcome of the game. In this game he hasn't made any contributions to the larger gamestate but more importantly just hasn't shown the range of thought and care like he did in 80s Mafia. In that game, he is basically me FFS - he does a lot of ISOing his scumspects, he does good post-flip analysis (I know we didn't get a scumflip but shrug) and he does good gamestate summations on where he's at.
I'm only through like 3/4s of his ISO but I've seen enough. KJ is definitely capable of playing just BETTER if he's town, and he hasn't in this game. I don't really care now about the weird gamestate evaluations he has. The thing I care more about is that he definitely has the potential to play like an active, engaged, solving player, but I haven't seen any of that in this game. He's been passive, lurky, only around for EoDs, and hasn't advocated for *****. I don't think this game is KJ's towngame.