Well it didn't per say, but. I would have just gunned for eco's head before anything else crossed my mind. The circumstances have changed, because now we are in F5 lylo
Also I have 0 outside bias. I'm just not going to execute the next top poster to me, when we have the 3 stooges down under us
Killjoy works with Proph because of him pushing the fact that their is a deep wolf, that's about it. But yester's EOD tells a completely different story
KJ has expressed more emotion than DoTA, and I found some of his micro to be townie, which is why I have heavy reservations on him. I think his macro by and large has been poor. In addition, I was relying heavily on Axel's stated townread on KJ, which is why I did not want to lunch him Yesterday.
Meanwhile DoTA literally did not do anything Yesterday and sounded like a robot. I would have expected him to at least acknowledge that he was wrong on GJ, or say some thing to defend himself, but he did not do that. He dropped a passionless case on KJ, similar to how he treated GJ, and then peaced out from the thread. I thought that was strong wolf behavior.
Emotion!=alignment indicative. Emotion is personality indicative and may indicate something specific to that person but without a specific meta emotional read it doesn't really mean anything.
Your focus on Dota over KJ was evident before Axel's ISO but I didn't highlight it to instead focus on the EoD. You also mention nowhere that I saw after your own wall that you were choosing to trust Axel's read.
Yes it does, if you don't think emotion plays a heavy portion on at least 80% of the mafia player base, you are out of your damn mind. Meta definitely makes it easier to read, that's for sure, but it's not ignored when meta doesn't exist.
Killjoy works with Proph because of him pushing the fact that their is a deep wolf, that's about it. But yester's EOD tells a completely different story
Explain it to me then. Because to me it sure looks like yesterday painted them as buddies thanks to EoD. Which is what I've been talking about since I came back.
And reevaluating me in a F5 is fine. I was expecting that I was more confused about the keeping me as a town read if he flipped scum but that's neither here nor there. Choosing not to reevaluate Proph because of vote count is less inspriring...
Yes it does, if you don't think emotion plays a heavy portion on at least 80% of the mafia player base, you are out of your damn mind. Meta definitely makes it easier to read, that's for sure, but it's not ignored when meta doesn't exist.
It should be ignored when meta doesn't exist because frustration, combativeness, placidness, and excitement can all come out for different reasons in different people. For DV being combative/angry means something very different than it does for me. Axel being calm and relaxed means something very different than it does for you. Attempting to read Dota being flat in his first game back after a several year gap while acknowledging that he wasn't particularly emotional then as scummy is malpractice or more probably malintent in Proph's case.
@Grape
I will see how Proph evaluates Killjoy today
that will say a lot about their possible partnership
also I said nothing about vote counts, I said post counts
If any of the bottom 3 put even half the amount of work of Proph, I think this would be easy
or even if you guys evaluated stuff like Axel
Eco is like the next best thing here, I think he is somewhat natural
Killjoy is a jumbled mess
and you are tunneled, whether right or wrong
and I, well I just don't want to be wrong here, that's why I am trying to understand everything
Yes it does, if you don't think emotion plays a heavy portion on at least 80% of the mafia player base, you are out of your damn mind. Meta definitely makes it easier to read, that's for sure, but it's not ignored when meta doesn't exist.
It should be ignored when meta doesn't exist because frustration, combativeness, placidness, and excitement can all come out for different reasons in different people. For DV being combative/angry means something very different than it does for me. Axel being calm and relaxed means something very different than it does for you. Attempting to read Dota being flat in his first game back after a several year gap while acknowledging that he wasn't particularly emotional then as scummy is malpractice or more probably malintent in Proph's case.
Im not talking about combatiness, frustration, placidness, or excitement, as invidivual aspects, I am talking about as a whole, and in that regard, and Proph being frustrated says a lot when he is stiff as a board as wolf, and it definitely doesn't help Killjoy, who has been a literal robot this entire game, and entirely wrong, about everything
@Proph
needs to talk about the bottom 3, and I need to see how he evaluates them
I don't need all this small stuff, I need him to do what he does best, and take the time to write a good wall on all 3 of you
@Grape
At the end of the day, as it stands I am probably voting Killjoy, you shouldn't have any reservations about that. Someone who has individual scum equity, and someone I wouldn't care if they flipped town, given how they've played the game and how horribly wrong they've been
Yeah, I'll get to writing walls/analyses about every single individual player other than myself throughout this week. Just give me a little time.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Emotion!=alignment indicative. Emotion is personality indicative and may indicate something specific to that person but without a specific meta emotional read it doesn't really mean anything.
Your focus on Dota over KJ was evident before Axel's ISO but I didn't highlight it to instead focus on the EoD. You also mention nowhere that I saw after your own wall that you were choosing to trust Axel's read.
I haven't played with DoTA in a very long time (I think the last time was in Arkham Horror, and my memory has blanked out everything related to that game because I flaked) so I had little meta knowledge to work off with. He gave me a list of games, but I skimmed them and found that he was similar tonally as either alignment. Him just not expressing any type of regret or any awareness of the gamestate besides who he was specifically targeting was the reason why I scumread him, and it's why I am taking full responsibility for his mislunch. If we lose the game, I acknowledge that most of it will be my fault.
And this is where I trusted Axel's read, before my wall:
At the end of all this, I...actually mostly like Killjoy? I agree with some of his stuff, but even more than that, I like his thought processes, and I don't see anything malicious here. His whole Tone is also very natural and just appears unforced to me. It's not an enormous amount of content, but it's not a lurking scum amount of content.
maybe not a hard town read per se, but axel did express reservations on lunching killjoy and gave a good list of reasons why he might be town
@Grape
I will see how Proph evaluates Killjoy today
that will say a lot about their possible partnership
also I said nothing about vote counts, I said post counts
If any of the bottom 3 put even half the amount of work of Proph, I think this would be easy
or even if you guys evaluated stuff like Axel
Eco is like the next best thing here, I think he is somewhat natural
Killjoy is a jumbled mess
and you are tunneled, whether right or wrong
and I, well I just don't want to be wrong here, that's why I am trying to understand everything
Definitely meant post count and not vote count. Can't type today.
And I'm not sure how much his evaluation of KJ means now that we're both in F5 and he's been called out on it for yesterday. As for my being tunneled I've had no reason to reevaluate. Yes I'm tunneled but unlike everyone else my primary scum read hasn't been flipped. Much easier to not be tunneled when you get to flip your reads. Before EoD yesterday most everyone was tunneled on Dota being scum.
As for the emotions part what you're saying is kind of my point. Just looking at emotions without knowing what they mean for the individual is pointless.
@Proph I wasn't trying to say that you didn't trust Axel's read. I was trying to say that it was weird you continued to shade KJ at EoD despite that without specifically mentioning the Axel trust as a reason to not vote him at EoD. I also am being informed by the fact that you opened D2 with a focus on Dota. We see you aknowledge the Axel read and trust it in the 880's. But there was a Dota focus prior to that. See his response to Wisp's game in 769 and 788 then in 828 and 834 you mention wanting Axel to post his thoughts for you to analyze. Which I missed before and it's kind of really interesting to me. You mentioned twice wanting to blast all 3 of Dota, KJ, and Cantrip at once but with KJ you're here asking to be persuaded differently but not for the other two. And after his wall you initially say he's still PoE for you but you plan to reevaluate. Then finally in 883 you say you can buy Axel's town case on KJ. By this point you had already voted for both Dota and Cantrip at various parts of the day.
So in addition to you being more proactive wrt voting Dota you also were giving KJ more rope than the rest of the PoE. Which to some extent is fair because he was the most active poster of that trio but I think your leniency there goes beyond just his higher post count.
Sorry I missed Day start, I was away over the weekend.
Fundamentally, there are now three possible worlds:
- The team is exactly Proph and LW
- The team is exactly Grape and KJ
- The team is split between those two groups
The first is unlikely because a) LW is the town read I am most comfortable with and b) the way Proph and LW have interacted and read each other throughout the game would be an unreal and unecessary amount of scum theatre, especially after reading the game where they were buddies where they acted much more simply and tactically.
Given that KJ and Grape don't look great but also not that scummy, the second world is not only possible but realistically more likely since Proph was at leasta town read which is harder than either KJ or GF managed, but I am nervous about sticking with the same PoE which hasn't worked out so far. Because of my read on LW, the last world only works with Proph + KJ/GF. So not really that many options.
So the key questions for my due diligence now are: is Proph scum? And if so, with whom?
But if anyone has any doubt on LW now would be a really good time to share it.
back to this post
I understand why you lumped KJ and Grape together with
[b]Given that KJ and Grape don't look great but also not that scummy[/b]
given your poe, but at the same time, this is just not true
How is it that nobody else see's the tangible reasons for Killjoy being a wolf here, how is it that Grape, is the only person that see's tangible reasons for Proph being a wolf here, and me, of course.
Killjoy is a mess, there is nothing consistent about anything thing he has done
He has voted twice? this whole game
His read of DV day 1, was completely false and made up
not to mention from your PoV, @Eco, that's two townies so far, me and DV, not to include that he said "**** it", hammered another townie, and also voted Dota, after doing so very little in between any of that
He believes there is a random deep wolf for 0 reason, can't even offer to tell me why Proph is a wolf, when both me and Grape can
He thinks its me and proph, he randomly likes one of my responses, says I can be town, doesn't re-evaluate his team after that
hedges on Axel, and pretty much everyone, without ever trying at all to fix that
but calls out Grape for having 4 wolves
then he randomly says Proph is town because of almost the same reason he called me town
but then today, argues, "There is nothing generally wolfy about Proph"... results = ?????????????????
Eco shades grape for talking about Proph being a wolf in a tone, that is overall exaggerated
His meta dive of me is good, but like in eco!wolf worlds, its not hard to correlate what it sees from other games, with this game, if he already knows I am wolf, which I will say, god those thoughts on me, make me want to jump in his pocket
His first post today doesn't feel like thoughts, just stuff that we know is true, from his PoV.
but the fact that he is still justifying why people dont work together, is kinda good for him, because its really hurting his chances to vote. Though Idk how much I care for that in lylo, since you only need one more person to die here, to win
also looking back, remembering that Killjoy randomly shaded Cantrip for lurking exceptionally more than usual, never voted there, and then that read went out the god damn window, never to be seen again
[b]Killjoy has only voted two times[/b]
[/b]between Eco and Cantrip there is one vote (correction, two votes, his main read, which was Dota, who flipped town)[/b]
also this post count is exceptionally low for killjoy, like insanely low, to the point where, "post count is irrelevant for my alignment" should mean nothing to anybody
To make it very clear, this is my pet scum team
also before u say, "but you said you wouldn't vote Eco unless new information came up"
and to that I will say, "ok boomer", and also its called, "reading"
Grape is tunneled on Proph, but we can compromise on Killjoy
whether I am right or not on Eco, will continue to change based on what he says as today goes on, and what others say on him
but the only other obvious wolf here would be Proph, I still don't think its Grape here
and yes I did go into those thoughts on Killjoy already with a wolf read in mind
you can find my thoughts literally everywhere on the townie things I liked from him, and also in a lot of Proph's posts
so yes, I have continued to look at this from both angles
Eco is not with Proph
Eco can be with Grape, but there really isn't much of a reason to think way, does it means its impossible, no, but I obviously have my team
Eco can be with Killjoy
Grapefruit is not with Proph
Grapefruit is not with Killjoy?
Grapefruit could be with Eco, but ya
Killjoy is not with Proph after how he interacted with Proph yesterday, but I think its the only other reasonable team
Killjoy is not with Grape?
Killjoy is can be Eco for reasons I stated
Proph can be with Killjoy
Proph is never with Grape
Proph is not with Eco, based solely on how Eco interacted with Grape's wolf read of Proph
killjoy/Grape is a question mark, idk if anyone has any reasons they can tell me for why this is unlikely
Grape had full intensions of killing Killjoy yesterday, but does that make them not a team? How likely would the killjoy lynch go through, also kinda plays a part here.
And for the record I'm not disagreeing that you can make a proactive case on KJ I'm just coming to this from the perspective of I need to convince you and Eco on scum!Proph. At some point if it's not going to happen I'm then going to do my due diligence to make sure it's KJ and not Eco or you but priority one for me is doing the legwork on Proph.
And for the record I'm not disagreeing that you can make a proactive case on KJ I'm just coming to this from the perspective of I need to convince you and Eco on scum!Proph. At some point if it's not going to happen I'm then going to do my due diligence to make sure it's KJ and not Eco or you but priority one for me is doing the legwork on Proph.
I understand that, and I don't think I will ever vote outside of Killjoy today, neither Proph nor Eco
but yes that case will be needed for future reference in the case we get to lylo
in wolf Killjoy worlds, its hard to say who exactly will be in that lylo
I presume, either me or you dies?
I understand that, and I don't think I will ever vote outside of Killjoy today, neither Proph nor Eco
but yes that case will be needed for future reference in the case we get to lylo
in wolf Killjoy worlds, its hard to say who exactly will be in that lylo
I presume, either me or you dies?
I guess? Probably you? Either way it's a lot of wine.
I understand that, and I don't think I will ever vote outside of Killjoy today, neither Proph nor Eco
but yes that case will be needed for future reference in the case we get to lylo
in wolf Killjoy worlds, its hard to say who exactly will be in that lylo
I presume, either me or you dies?
I guess? Probably you? Either way it's a lot of wine.
it was more of a statement, rather than a question lol
Finished Day 1, will reread Day 2 in its full context then start working on individual player read-throughs.
This game is gonna be devilish to solve, but in the meantime, I have a couple of questions for Killjoy:
Quote from Killjoy »
I think Axel not including Timetwister kinda reads to me as "less likely aligned" than "criminal mastermind obviously avoiding his buddy" especially since that would be optimal distancing time.
@Killjoy: Why is RVS "optimal distancing time"? Can you talk to me about what was going through your head when you made this statement?
Quote from Killjoy »
I'm rereading now, but I feel the need to ask this important game-altering question.
Wisp: any entrance based reads?
KJ - was this a joke question? Why did you ask this to Wisp, if it is? What are "entrance based reads" exactly?
Also, I kept asking you this earlier but I never got an answer to it. What made you change your read on DV at the end of Day 1, and why did you say I was "scum" mid-late of Day 2, before reverting to a null-townish read on me?
Quote from Killjoy »
I guess Proph wolf, wisp town, grape town, axel town, dota town eco scum.
@LW: I lumped KJ and GF together because if Proph is town, then it has to be exactly KJ and GF, so it doesn't really matter which is worse. But I totally agree that KJ is scummier, that's why I was asking him yesterDay about unifying his theories: because I felt that KJ had been using theory to create many possible worlds that had contradictions but hadn't been trying to unify them at all the way I would have expected town KJ to. I have been trying to give him some rope rather than just outright accuse him because KJ was much more likely to answer questions than DoTA was.
In fact, since Proph/Grape is a very unlikely team, KJ pretty much has to be Mafia here regardless of how strong the case is on him.
So, sorry I posted "just" facts at the start of the Day, but we are fundamentally on the same side here. Just trying to work out if Proph or Grape is the last bad guy.
@Wisp: The answer to your question is in the long post I'm making.
Quick question though: Do you actually think I'm scum? Because I keep seeing references to how badly I'm playing and that you'd feel least guilty yeeting me.
@Proph It's not so much RVS, but that post that was optimal distancing time. Adding in Timetwister didn't cost anything, and would have felt completely normal to do. In an Axel-DotA world, having DotA in there, or rather not specifically excluding him, wouldn't have felt weird at all.
As to entrance based reads, it was KIND OF a joke question, but kind of serious as well. One game, a long time ago, Wisp said he was really good at reading people based on entrances. (I think that) every game sincs, I've asked that question. This is actually the first game that I've gotten an affirmative answer (which I've kind of been holding that in the back of my head as a possible reason he might be scum, that that answer was false and he made up the reads.) Entrance based reads are being able to make decisions on alignment based on first posts.
Per DV: I think you're referring to when I was reading DV's initial aggressiveness as malice, but then I recontextualized it as just DV being emotional? I'm not sure? Can you quote where you're referring to here?
Literally the reason you're a wolf there is because I was doubting Wisp being scum at that point and you being scum with Eco fit my "one high one low" theory I was actively looking at. That's it.
@Eco: Why does Grape/Proph not make sense? What about Grape Wisp? Or Wisp Proph? Why am I scum?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Killjoy
Do I think you are a wolf, yes, am I omnipotent? No, so yes there is still a part of me that expects town!Killjoy to play this poorly, but that ship has long sailed imo
I still gotta reread Proph and Grape. Proph will probably be left till my day off on Thurs, and Grape will probably be tomorrow a long side other stuff
@Eco: Why does Grape/Proph not make sense? What about Grape Wisp? Or Wisp Proph? Why am I scum?
GF/Proph is unlikely because I don't think scum-GF's strategy would be to spend the whole game trying to bus his senior (or at least more active) partner. Grape/Wisp because I think Wisp is town. Wisp/Proph because their interactions would be an unbelieveable and unnecesary level of scum theatre, espcially compared to how the interacted as buddies in the Throne of Lies game.
But that you don't know all this makes you look pretty desperate - or do you have some counter argument or behavioural evidence for one of these teams?
Don't really know why u had to answer those questions, that killjoy himself couldn't spend find minutes finding those answers already in your iso, I think?, nor why he can't talk about those things himself
There has been 0 real attempt from him to solve this game, and even in lylo, there is no attempt to find those answers himself, he is just content with whatever happens
And he keeps shading me for being uninformed, it's annoying, he wants me to be a god, while he does absolutely nothing? This game has been crazy hard for 0 reason, if killjoy was actually town here, I should be able to see it in his posts, not with the garbage meta, that tells me, "Killjoy is just being useless old killjoy". Which isn't even technically true, because I looked at his recent town games, and he pushes his thoughts, and does not hold his vote close to his chest. If he believes someone is a wolf, he votes them, he fights with them.
The only thing giving me pause with KJ is that everyone seems to be on board with him being scum. In F5 like this I'd have thought scum would be trying to win toDay but maybe KJ is such a lost cause that Proph is just going to try and win tomorrow.
Anyway toDay is my KJ and maybe Eco/Cantrip rereads.
Has anyone reread EoD1 recently? I have a few thoughts about KJ's hammer I want a check on. It's a super weird hammer in a KJ/Proph world, but also makes sense in a very galaxy brain way if they are buddies. Reading into hammers is the worst but feels important here. @Wisp or @Eco can you talk to me about the KJ hammer there in the KJ/Proph world?
Wait nevermind. I'm an idiot and forgot how ties worked. The hammer makes sense in that world regardless. I forgot ties ended the day without a death and not a random result.
@Grape
From your PoV this should be ez, Killjoy has to be in either team. Look at how Eco talked about your scum read of Proph, and tell me how he talks about his partner like that, I can't go find the post. Buts it's basically the one where he basically shaded u for having it
Yeah, it's just throwing me that no one is really even half heartedly attempting to defend KJ. But I guess his buddy (Proph) assumes he's as good as gone, and to be fair Proph has been promising a reread on KJ and not given it yet so it could have been coming and I just got weirded out before it happened. Still meaning to look through KJ's ISO today but going to be watching game 6 of Bucks/Suns so it will be slow going. If you have anything you want me to look at just ask.
it's coming, just been very busy this week. trying to carve out time at night for this game but I get very sleepy
I looked through all of KJ's posts yesterday at eod2. think his post about body pillows and ***** is one of the more important ones for gauging his alignment but it's difficult to parse/step into the shoes of
it's coming, just been very busy this week. trying to carve out time at night for this game but I get very sleepy
I looked through all of KJ's posts yesterday at eod2. think his post about body pillows and ***** is one of the more important ones for gauging his alignment but it's difficult to parse/step into the shoes of
@Killjoy
man its crazy how you haven't said anything that isn't a question, for like 3-4 days, and then you drop that god awful post on me? and your reaction to DV is even more piss poor than DV's reactions to pressure, which honestly it isn't even pressure, he just reacts to posts he believes are stupid. When exactly did DV become a wolf-lean for you? because you worded one post, "DV/Cross probably not aligned", and I am curious if you were already trying to find DV's partner in your world, or if you were just making a general statement. Either way, when did DV become a wolf lean for u? Also idk if you think its townie to just not saying anything about the top wagon, but heads up, its not townie, in the slightest lol. So like I asked before, please come back and give me a read on Osie/GJ, so I can actually evaluate your presence in this game
That's quite a post.
@Wisp:So first of all, you seem to be implying that you saying that I'm really null somehow means that you want to yeet me, which is why you countered with "but I said I didn't want you dead" or whatever, but that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that you saying that I'm really null so much is an attempt to persuade others of this, possibly in counter to others townreading me. I interepretted this as an attempt to drive the conversation subtly in that direction.
Like, imagine a conversation about you. "Wisp is a great dude" I say.
Just that, it's an opinion. It's just kinda sitting there. Others are talking about you, saying various things. DV is trying real hard to figure out what your name means. GJ is talking about the ecology of Will-o-the-Wisps from Scottish folklore. Proph is describing the shrine he has of you in his bedroom.
So a bit later, I pop in with another "Wisp is a great dude". The more I say this, the less passive it is. It's not just "I think he's cool" but now it's starting to move towards "and I think you should think so too". Conversation continues. DV: "WISP WHY". GJ: "And the Faeries in Ireland..." Proph: "Wisp body pillow"
Then I come in again "great dude". It's meant to be persuasive now. I said it again.
So, back to reality here: Just because you say you weren't gonna yeet me doesn't mean you weren't trying to degrade the townread on me to make yeeting me easier later. That was what I was saying there, that that's what I felt you were doing.
Second of all, DV. I know you've played with me enough to get how I do things. Obviously I haven't posted much this game, but activity is not alignment indicative for me, you know that. When did I think DV was scum? here. I thought that was DV showing his hand a bit. DV saw that Cross thought that Proph might be town, and instead of analyzing that info and trying to discern it's origin, he assumes the reason and jumps straight to "inside info" which does not logically follow. It was obviously just "Osie saw something that he thought was indicative of Proph's town game". Potentially manufacturing a scummy reason for that is bloodthirsty scum material. I'd argue he's doing the same with me when he said I claimed scum. Like, I made a post he supposedly disagreed with and in response... I'm scum. He doesn't seem to care why I hold this opinion, he just wants me gone. And that's not what town do typically.
Thirdly, I feel like trying to force me to have an opinion on someone I'm null on isn't gonna tell you much about my alignment, but I'll give it a go.
@DV: I'd say react inquisitively to my 'attack'. You don't have to kill everything that has a scumread on you.
Proph: I'll answer you vis a vis Axel's detractors after I finish rereading Osie.
tbh that post probably needs a the newcomb treatment, and IDK if I did it before so...
Quote from Killjoy »
Like, imagine a conversation about you. "Wisp is a great dude" I say.
Just that, it's an opinion. It's just kinda sitting there. Others are talking about you, saying various things. DV is trying real hard to figure out what your name means. GJ is talking about the ecology of Will-o-the-Wisps from Scottish folklore. Proph is describing the shrine he has of you in his bedroom.
So a bit later, I pop in with another "Wisp is a great dude". The more I say this, the less passive it is. It's not just "I think he's cool" but now it's starting to move towards "and I think you should think so too". Conversation continues. DV: "WISP WHY". GJ: "And the Faeries in Ireland..." Proph: "Wisp body pillow"
Ok Wisp. you really need to stop. I need to stop seeing posts from you about me being so personal. You keep saying things like "He's a literal robot. he's wrong about EVERYTHING, he's playing so horribly omg, HE'S SHADING ME WITH HIS ACCUSATIONS OMG" and they are literally like... personal attacks, not actually analyzing my play. Like, honestly, glass houses and the like.
I already said this one, and this is the last time I'll be polite about it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
that is not personal at all, its a decent enough scum tell, that's not personal
you have been wrong about literally everything, that's not personal
You are shading me, that's not personal
I have analyzed your posts
where are the wolves then, I am not one of them, go find them
stop jabbing me for not trying to understand you, when I have been trying to understand you
if you are not a wolf, I don't understand this game
my last attempt at a scum team in not you worlds
would be Grape/Proph, or Eco/Grape, but holy***** Eco all but lowered the chances of him being a wolf with either Grape or Proph, to about 0 with just one post
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ I appreciate you taking your time to get this long post right but if you're town the sooner you drop it the better. Is this still the post where you're trying to town clear Proph?
Also I have 0 outside bias. I'm just not going to execute the next top poster to me, when we have the 3 stooges down under us
Emotion!=alignment indicative. Emotion is personality indicative and may indicate something specific to that person but without a specific meta emotional read it doesn't really mean anything.
Your focus on Dota over KJ was evident before Axel's ISO but I didn't highlight it to instead focus on the EoD. You also mention nowhere that I saw after your own wall that you were choosing to trust Axel's read.
Explain it to me then. Because to me it sure looks like yesterday painted them as buddies thanks to EoD. Which is what I've been talking about since I came back.
And reevaluating me in a F5 is fine. I was expecting that I was more confused about the keeping me as a town read if he flipped scum but that's neither here nor there. Choosing not to reevaluate Proph because of vote count is less inspriring...
It should be ignored when meta doesn't exist because frustration, combativeness, placidness, and excitement can all come out for different reasons in different people. For DV being combative/angry means something very different than it does for me. Axel being calm and relaxed means something very different than it does for you. Attempting to read Dota being flat in his first game back after a several year gap while acknowledging that he wasn't particularly emotional then as scummy is malpractice or more probably malintent in Proph's case.
I will see how Proph evaluates Killjoy today
that will say a lot about their possible partnership
also I said nothing about vote counts, I said post counts
If any of the bottom 3 put even half the amount of work of Proph, I think this would be easy
or even if you guys evaluated stuff like Axel
Eco is like the next best thing here, I think he is somewhat natural
Killjoy is a jumbled mess
and you are tunneled, whether right or wrong
and I, well I just don't want to be wrong here, that's why I am trying to understand everything
@Proph
needs to talk about the bottom 3, and I need to see how he evaluates them
I don't need all this small stuff, I need him to do what he does best, and take the time to write a good wall on all 3 of you
At the end of the day, as it stands I am probably voting Killjoy, you shouldn't have any reservations about that. Someone who has individual scum equity, and someone I wouldn't care if they flipped town, given how they've played the game and how horribly wrong they've been
I haven't played with DoTA in a very long time (I think the last time was in Arkham Horror, and my memory has blanked out everything related to that game because I flaked) so I had little meta knowledge to work off with. He gave me a list of games, but I skimmed them and found that he was similar tonally as either alignment. Him just not expressing any type of regret or any awareness of the gamestate besides who he was specifically targeting was the reason why I scumread him, and it's why I am taking full responsibility for his mislunch. If we lose the game, I acknowledge that most of it will be my fault.
And this is where I trusted Axel's read, before my wall:
Definitely meant post count and not vote count. Can't type today.
And I'm not sure how much his evaluation of KJ means now that we're both in F5 and he's been called out on it for yesterday. As for my being tunneled I've had no reason to reevaluate. Yes I'm tunneled but unlike everyone else my primary scum read hasn't been flipped. Much easier to not be tunneled when you get to flip your reads. Before EoD yesterday most everyone was tunneled on Dota being scum.
As for the emotions part what you're saying is kind of my point. Just looking at emotions without knowing what they mean for the individual is pointless.
@Proph I wasn't trying to say that you didn't trust Axel's read. I was trying to say that it was weird you continued to shade KJ at EoD despite that without specifically mentioning the Axel trust as a reason to not vote him at EoD. I also am being informed by the fact that you opened D2 with a focus on Dota. We see you aknowledge the Axel read and trust it in the 880's. But there was a Dota focus prior to that. See his response to Wisp's game in 769 and 788 then in 828 and 834 you mention wanting Axel to post his thoughts for you to analyze. Which I missed before and it's kind of really interesting to me. You mentioned twice wanting to blast all 3 of Dota, KJ, and Cantrip at once but with KJ you're here asking to be persuaded differently but not for the other two. And after his wall you initially say he's still PoE for you but you plan to reevaluate. Then finally in 883 you say you can buy Axel's town case on KJ. By this point you had already voted for both Dota and Cantrip at various parts of the day.
So in addition to you being more proactive wrt voting Dota you also were giving KJ more rope than the rest of the PoE. Which to some extent is fair because he was the most active poster of that trio but I think your leniency there goes beyond just his higher post count.
I understand why you lumped KJ and Grape together with
[b]Given that KJ and Grape don't look great but also not that scummy[/b]
given your poe, but at the same time, this is just not true
How is it that nobody else see's the tangible reasons for Killjoy being a wolf here, how is it that Grape, is the only person that see's tangible reasons for Proph being a wolf here, and me, of course.
Killjoy is a mess, there is nothing consistent about anything thing he has done
He has voted twice? this whole game
His read of DV day 1, was completely false and made up
not to mention from your PoV, @Eco, that's two townies so far, me and DV, not to include that he said "**** it", hammered another townie, and also voted Dota, after doing so very little in between any of that
He believes there is a random deep wolf for 0 reason, can't even offer to tell me why Proph is a wolf, when both me and Grape can
He thinks its me and proph, he randomly likes one of my responses, says I can be town, doesn't re-evaluate his team after that
hedges on Axel, and pretty much everyone, without ever trying at all to fix that
but calls out Grape for having 4 wolves
then he randomly says Proph is town because of almost the same reason he called me town
but then today, argues, "There is nothing generally wolfy about Proph"... results = ?????????????????
Eco shades grape for talking about Proph being a wolf in a tone, that is overall exaggerated
His meta dive of me is good, but like in eco!wolf worlds, its not hard to correlate what it sees from other games, with this game, if he already knows I am wolf, which I will say, god those thoughts on me, make me want to jump in his pocket
His first post today doesn't feel like thoughts, just stuff that we know is true, from his PoV.
but the fact that he is still justifying why people dont work together, is kinda good for him, because its really hurting his chances to vote. Though Idk how much I care for that in lylo, since you only need one more person to die here, to win
also looking back, remembering that Killjoy randomly shaded Cantrip for lurking exceptionally more than usual, never voted there, and then that read went out the god damn window, never to be seen again
[b]Killjoy has only voted two times[/b]
[/b]between Eco and Cantrip there is one vote (correction, two votes, his main read, which was Dota, who flipped town)[/b]
also this post count is exceptionally low for killjoy, like insanely low, to the point where, "post count is irrelevant for my alignment" should mean nothing to anybody
To make it very clear, this is my pet scum team
also before u say, "but you said you wouldn't vote Eco unless new information came up"
and to that I will say, "ok boomer", and also its called, "reading"
Grape is tunneled on Proph, but we can compromise on Killjoy
whether I am right or not on Eco, will continue to change based on what he says as today goes on, and what others say on him
but the only other obvious wolf here would be Proph, I still don't think its Grape here
thanks for coming to my ted talk
is also something boggles my mind
you can find my thoughts literally everywhere on the townie things I liked from him, and also in a lot of Proph's posts
so yes, I have continued to look at this from both angles
as well as in regards to Eco, Proph, and Grape
Eco is not with Proph
Eco can be with Grape, but there really isn't much of a reason to think way, does it means its impossible, no, but I obviously have my team
Eco can be with Killjoy
Grapefruit is not with Proph
Grapefruit is not with Killjoy?
Grapefruit could be with Eco, but ya
Killjoy is not with Proph after how he interacted with Proph yesterday, but I think its the only other reasonable team
Killjoy is not with Grape?
Killjoy is can be Eco for reasons I stated
Proph can be with Killjoy
Proph is never with Grape
Proph is not with Eco, based solely on how Eco interacted with Grape's wolf read of Proph
killjoy/Grape is a question mark, idk if anyone has any reasons they can tell me for why this is unlikely
Grape had full intensions of killing Killjoy yesterday, but does that make them not a team? How likely would the killjoy lynch go through, also kinda plays a part here.
And for the record I'm not disagreeing that you can make a proactive case on KJ I'm just coming to this from the perspective of I need to convince you and Eco on scum!Proph. At some point if it's not going to happen I'm then going to do my due diligence to make sure it's KJ and not Eco or you but priority one for me is doing the legwork on Proph.
but yes that case will be needed for future reference in the case we get to lylo
in wolf Killjoy worlds, its hard to say who exactly will be in that lylo
I presume, either me or you dies?
I guess? Probably you? Either way it's a lot of wine.
This game is gonna be devilish to solve, but in the meantime, I have a couple of questions for Killjoy:
@Killjoy: Why is RVS "optimal distancing time"? Can you talk to me about what was going through your head when you made this statement?
KJ - was this a joke question? Why did you ask this to Wisp, if it is? What are "entrance based reads" exactly?
Also, I kept asking you this earlier but I never got an answer to it. What made you change your read on DV at the end of Day 1, and why did you say I was "scum" mid-late of Day 2, before reverting to a null-townish read on me?
In fact, since Proph/Grape is a very unlikely team, KJ pretty much has to be Mafia here regardless of how strong the case is on him.
So, sorry I posted "just" facts at the start of the Day, but we are fundamentally on the same side here. Just trying to work out if Proph or Grape is the last bad guy.
Have some actual work to do, but later today gonna finish up my game reread, then look to do some individual analyses.
KJ's posts Today do not inspire confidence in me.
Quick question though: Do you actually think I'm scum? Because I keep seeing references to how badly I'm playing and that you'd feel least guilty yeeting me.
@Proph It's not so much RVS, but that post that was optimal distancing time. Adding in Timetwister didn't cost anything, and would have felt completely normal to do. In an Axel-DotA world, having DotA in there, or rather not specifically excluding him, wouldn't have felt weird at all.
As to entrance based reads, it was KIND OF a joke question, but kind of serious as well. One game, a long time ago, Wisp said he was really good at reading people based on entrances. (I think that) every game sincs, I've asked that question. This is actually the first game that I've gotten an affirmative answer (which I've kind of been holding that in the back of my head as a possible reason he might be scum, that that answer was false and he made up the reads.) Entrance based reads are being able to make decisions on alignment based on first posts.
Per DV: I think you're referring to when I was reading DV's initial aggressiveness as malice, but then I recontextualized it as just DV being emotional? I'm not sure? Can you quote where you're referring to here?
Literally the reason you're a wolf there is because I was doubting Wisp being scum at that point and you being scum with Eco fit my "one high one low" theory I was actively looking at. That's it.
@Eco: Why does Grape/Proph not make sense? What about Grape Wisp? Or Wisp Proph? Why am I scum?
Do I think you are a wolf, yes, am I omnipotent? No, so yes there is still a part of me that expects town!Killjoy to play this poorly, but that ship has long sailed imo
will get to you in a bit
GF/Proph is unlikely because I don't think scum-GF's strategy would be to spend the whole game trying to bus his senior (or at least more active) partner. Grape/Wisp because I think Wisp is town. Wisp/Proph because their interactions would be an unbelieveable and unnecesary level of scum theatre, espcially compared to how the interacted as buddies in the Throne of Lies game.
But that you don't know all this makes you look pretty desperate - or do you have some counter argument or behavioural evidence for one of these teams?
There has been 0 real attempt from him to solve this game, and even in lylo, there is no attempt to find those answers himself, he is just content with whatever happens
And he keeps shading me for being uninformed, it's annoying, he wants me to be a god, while he does absolutely nothing? This game has been crazy hard for 0 reason, if killjoy was actually town here, I should be able to see it in his posts, not with the garbage meta, that tells me, "Killjoy is just being useless old killjoy". Which isn't even technically true, because I looked at his recent town games, and he pushes his thoughts, and does not hold his vote close to his chest. If he believes someone is a wolf, he votes them, he fights with them.
Anyway toDay is my KJ and maybe Eco/Cantrip rereads.
Has anyone reread EoD1 recently? I have a few thoughts about KJ's hammer I want a check on. It's a super weird hammer in a KJ/Proph world, but also makes sense in a very galaxy brain way if they are buddies. Reading into hammers is the worst but feels important here. @Wisp or @Eco can you talk to me about the KJ hammer there in the KJ/Proph world?
From your PoV this should be ez, Killjoy has to be in either team. Look at how Eco talked about your scum read of Proph, and tell me how he talks about his partner like that, I can't go find the post. Buts it's basically the one where he basically shaded u for having it
I looked through all of KJ's posts yesterday at eod2. think his post about body pillows and ***** is one of the more important ones for gauging his alignment but it's difficult to parse/step into the shoes of
I already said this one, and this is the last time I'll be polite about it.
I'm continuing my post about Proph now.
you have been wrong about literally everything, that's not personal
You are shading me, that's not personal
I have analyzed your posts
where are the wolves then, I am not one of them, go find them
stop jabbing me for not trying to understand you, when I have been trying to understand you
if you are not a wolf, I don't understand this game
my last attempt at a scum team in not you worlds
would be Grape/Proph, or Eco/Grape, but holy***** Eco all but lowered the chances of him being a wolf with either Grape or Proph, to about 0 with just one post
sigh
I'm going to sleep
Grapes been asking questions about me. What do you think of them?
@KJ I appreciate you taking your time to get this long post right but if you're town the sooner you drop it the better. Is this still the post where you're trying to town clear Proph?
he is getting nervous over the lack of town reads on you
if its not you
then its Proph/Eco
I am not re-evaluating Grape, Axel and Me both agreed on that town read
maybe I am drawing the line somewhere, but I dont see it
and you are wrong if you don't think I will blame myself if we lose this game
but I am glad you decided to actually make a non-robotic post