Dota comes back to write that one post, after writing an unfinished wall post, saying he is going to continue catching up
and he doesn't even attempt to answer my questions, only killjoys
Can you repeat any questions I missed? I had a quick look back but I didn't see any direct questions apart from one which you answered yourself in your next post.
As for the reread I haven't forgotten (I need to carry on from page 6), things are just a bit rough here at the moment. Been struggling to concentrate these past few days (life issues).
I thought he meant to ask about Axel, because that was the only read I could think of that he might have thought of since you never switched your read on Osie's slot
That's what confused me as well. It seems he was asking about me moving from a town lean before the replacement to a scum read after, which makes no sense. And if KJ did mean Axel, the question still doesn't make sense.
I read DoTA's post 823 but the structure of the post is really confusing to me. I felt that it was a lot of IIoA (information instead of analysis), though, which doesn't reflect super well on DoTA. He's also not giving a whole lot of insight into the genuineness of his mindset with that post. Just "here are my notes, KJ looks more town, Cantrip and Wisp look more scummy". Like, there's no pizzazz or attempt to convince others that he is right at all.
There's nothing to convince anyone of yet, I'm not even halfway through the reread. It was 2am when I got to the end of page 5, so I added the links for the quotes and dropped the notes I'd taken into the thread.
I thought he meant to ask about Axel, because that was the only read I could think of that he might have thought of since you never switched your read on Osie's slot
That's what confused me as well. It seems he was asking about me moving from a town lean before the replacement to a scum read after, which makes no sense. And if KJ did mean Axel, the question still doesn't make sense.
Grape does a re-read of Osie in post #290. The TLDR take away is he still thinks Osie is scum, and the read is strengthening. Presumably this means stronger than the "late D1" strength he stated earlier.
There's a lot to pick through here. Grape says he doesn't like Osie's Rainbow read post where he gave an early opinion on everyone in the game. Even though this ended in a mild town-lean on Grape himself, Grape appears to not like it, thinking that Osie (1) harped too much on Grape voting second on someone during RVS, and (2) was very "staccato" in his other remarks about Grape - i.e. would comment what he liked about one post, and then what he didn't like about another post without showing how his thought processes evolved over time, and this seemed like a more scummy way to do an analysis of someone. Like throwing stuff out there to see if anything would stick to the wall. Grape also thought Osie was doing the same kind of thing with his assessment of DV (which ended in scum-lean). But not with Last, which he felt was more "fluid."
So Grape says he doesn't like Osie's "process" here, even before looking at the actual conclusions (which he also I guess disagrees with to some extent, though it is not clear exactly which ones he disagrees with - Grape does not really give any opinions on anyone else here). He also seems to allow that if it's really Osie, it's less of a red flag than it might otherwise be.
He questions Osie's meta dive on me, says it feels agenda driven, which, fair. He also seems to feel Osie might be sucking up to Proph at bit (appeasement?) in agreeing with him, and following him onto a vote on DoTA. I'm just going to quote his conclusion:
So major thoughts are the intial tone felt off but that improved throughout the game. Probably was mostly early Roleplay missing for me. The readswall and team sort are agenda'y red flags to me. As is the intial Axel push. Then the buddying up to Proph and DV just doesn't feel like town core building to me (given the different handling of Wisp for example).
And, eh. That is maybe my biggest take-away, in that Grape had already said he had a "late D1" strength read on Osie, and now after this re-read the read was "increasing in intensity," but it still doesn't seem all that strong. So there's some disconnect for me there.
I don't love that Grape has Osie and Proph as his bottom two read while at the same time saying he specifically doesn't think they are scum together. That's just not how my mind works. Then, when Osie reveals himself, Grape seems to think that weakens a bunch of his points enough to the point he Unvotes pending re-evaluation. Don't care a lot for this, in as much as it really seems to be relying almost entirely on meta.
Grape doesn't really give much in the way of opinions on other people until #543 when he comes down with a vote for Proph. I haven't re-read the post of Proph's that Grape didn't like (in which Proph is explaining why he thinks Osie is Town), and I don't really want to, in as much as this post is already too long. I feel like I have to put an assessment of this particular vote on hold until I do, and then decide if what Grape is saying is reasonable. The fact that it's largely a single post prompting the vote isn't great, but I acknowledge that Grape previously expressed suspicion of Proph.
In #552 Grape says that Proph's wall was "howling", which seems a stronger statement than what he said before. And he's still doing the "Proph not aligned with Osie" (who is now GJ) thing, and seems to be using it as an excuse to not look at GJ.
Something probably noteworthy. I did not realize that, with literally 50 minutes to go until the dealine, Proph was actually in the top spot (this was the HR post at #651 that I missed). In my mind, Osie/GJ was the leading candidate, and I knew there had been traditional last minute flailing, but I did not realize until this moment how close it was for Proph. This means I now have to actually go and look at that whole sequence again, which I totally do not have time to do. But, what I was saying, with 50 minutes until deadline, this was the vote:
Grape then comes back and indicates he's still happy with his Proph vote at #654. DV is the one who literally flips the balance in the very next post, #655, by switching from Proph to GJ. That is insta-followed by Last at #657 (I have no idea what Last was saying about GJ before this. I have a feeling he was saying "Town", but maybe he was conflicted, and maybe this was strictly a deadline thing). Last then follows Proph and switches to Grape.
Grape sticks on Proph though. Not really saying much about GJ. They just appear to be a non-aligned pair for him, and when one goes up the other goes down.
GJ comes back and adds his vote to Grape, and now they are actually tied 3-3, with 17 minutes left.
To his credit, Grape does NOT hop the GJ wagon immediately to preserve himself here. In fact, in #686 he says that GJ doesn't really seem like a wolf to him. And I want to say that's remarkably cool-headed, if Grape is scum. I can only imagine, but if I was scum getting run up at deadline and there was a viable counter-wagon, I feel like I would find a way to get on it. Or at least start making some posts that could influence others to get on the counter-wagon. Something more frantic and/or desperate than what I'm seeing here. Grape does say, at #693 that he guesses he should vote for GJ, which is kind of what I'm talking about, but also says he doesn't feel great about it, will hold off for 10 minutes, and encourages people to come back to the Proph wagon. Still pretty cool-headed if scum.
Grape makes a point I considered myself, which was the way Proph very vocally encouraged Osie to reveal his true identity, in the hopes that our knowing it was Osie would change our reads of him. I thought it strange at the time, and (when envisioning Proph/Osie wolf teams) imagined him doing this as a way to try and save his partner, as at least a few people (myself included) had said that if Crossbell was Osie, at least some of what he had posted would be more explainable as Town. We now know Proph. obviously wasn't doing that to save his partner, but I feel like it was a legitimate speculation.
Then, at #705, after a post from DV leads Grape to believe that DV will vote him at deadline over GJ, Grape seems to think that means it's over for him, and he'd better make a legacy post. And that's also remarkably calm for scum about to get voted out.
The "Legacy" post is at #715. As these things go, I guess it's fine. It's weird because GJ is the actual vote leader, but Grape seems to be assuming that DV is about to switch his vote at the last second. DV isn't actually around, as far as I can tell though. Killjoy finishes it off with 1 minute to deadline (though this was almost irrelevant, as we are on plurality and GJ would have been lynched anyway had Killjoy not voted).
I guess in scum-Killjoy worlds there's a world where it's him and Grape and Killjoy was voting here to ensure that there wouldn't be a last second switch onto his partner, but I don't really think that.
Grape continues to give some more of his reads, even after GJ is voted out. And frankly that's another really good look. Maybe he didn't realize the deadline had past? No real reason for him to continue on that way as scum though. He would have just been breathing a big sigh of relief, I think is all.
And, man, I wasn't sure before all that stuff at the end, but the end really shot Grape up. I have a hard time seeing all those posts coming from Mafia, esp. Mafia on the edge, in that way. It all really looks pretty Town to me.
Verdict: Now thinking not Mafia. Probably above Killjoy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
There is no actual way I am ever wading through all of Proph and Last's posts before Thursday. Grape was a bear, and they have like 10x more post between them.
I am wondering if I have to, though, as - unless it is exactly Proph/Last and they are actually post-counting us to death - it is only 1 there at worst, and that still leaves 1 Mafia and I think I would be pretty comfortable with voting Cantrip down at the bottom right now. (Sorry Eco.)
Maybe DoTA, but it would have to be based on D2 stuff I haven't reviewed yet, not the D1 comparisons.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I would prefer to extinguish DoTA now because I think he's objectively more scummy, and I trust that Eco will give us more readable content for us to work off of as the game progresses.
And Axel, what I said earlier remains true - just slot Last and I as town if you don't want to read through all of our content. I won't deny that I am quite interested in reading a dissertation of my posts and how I've been playing this game. However, I agree with you that it will be an arduous task.
Also my a.d.h.d does not allow me to play the way the majority of the players play on this site. I just don't have to attention span for going through every post in every iso, making a comment. That's usually not even how I find wolves. I go through an iso, pick out townie posts, and I pick out wolfie posts instead
Top town reads are Proph and Axelrod. Proph picked up the most + points as I was reading, but in general I think his D1 progression was organic and didn't really fit a mafia mindset. He makes a lot of big calls (LW from mafia to town under zero pressure, Crossbell as Town, DV Mafia then Town) when it would have been easy to ride on any read (or at least shelve them rather than reverse when they didn't gain traction).
Just to play devil's advocate here a bit: Is there a reason why you're interpreting my reads-reversal on Wisp in a more charitable way than your predecessor? Here's what he said:
Quote from Cantripmancer »
I can see what you're saying a bit with 19 and 25, but I'm really not seeing the reactiveness of 8 or 29. I know you've recently re-evaluated Wisp townward, but given the conviction you were showing based on early game meta comparison, right now it just looks like you've decided that trying to get Wisp mis-eliminated isn't worth the effort and you're going to push elsewhere. (I saw your explanation, and I don't want to ask you to provide more detail because I generally agree with what you "found", but your change in position is a bit, as you say, jarring.)
Quote from Ecophagy »
- GF really does not have a lot of content. I liked #66 for an against the grain LW town read. Similarly in #543 GF votes Proph in contrast to many easier wagons (GJ, DoTA, KJ) and it was a doubling down of an existing slightly dangerous read. The major problem is that GF hasn't done much else D2 other than just chip at Proph and make some fencesitting reads without voting anywhere. So he's either Mafia who's just clinging to a vanity vote or town in a tunnel who need to look back at the macro game. I think #768 is the latter direction but that's only a first step
Grape also was an early vote and advocate for more pressure on the Osie slot, and he very specifically made a read that me and Osie were unaligned. He also stopped tunnelling Osie after he revealed his identity (and started tunnelling me). Do you have any thoughts on that, and what that means for his alignment?
Quote from Ecophagy »
Proph I need your help here on LW. During my reread I was nodding along with your early mafia-read of him - I thought he was overly defensive, inconsistent, trying pretty hard to seem relaxed/detached, and spent a lot of time agreeing and voting with you despite reading you as mafia. I picked out #230 as a broad "let's look at the low posters" very soon after you cased him in #181. Even in D2 while there's been more engagement he's been holding back waiting for results of this "game" which I'm very unimpressed by because needing to wait for everyone to answer is a great way to stall out when you have lurkers.
But, Proph, you've switched your read to pretty much ride or die town and I need you to help me because I don't get it. I get that you read him from a town mindset and it fit, and I can see some positives like it sounds like he's talking without a filter, and I think that his voting would be less erratic (or at least more tactical) if he was mafia. But I also feel like his votes have been pretty safe and he's tried quite hard to make sure we all know he's having trouble nailing down reads. So, uh, help please?
This read is kind of hard to unpack for me because it's based a lot on my own experience and meta with Wisp, but it boils down to this. His attempts at solving and working out the gamestate feel real, and his interactions with specifically me also feel not-malicious and accompanied with a healthy amount of paranoia on his side, paranoia that I think would be much harder to fake or seem natural if he was a wolf.
I think my little blurb on him in 660 summarizes my townread on him decently well, but if I have some extra time I'll go ahead and put in words why I think he's so town.
I feel bad about pressuring DoTA like this when he has RL issues, but I really do think that it's likely that he's one of our two wolves. I suppose all we can do it give him some time to see if he can prove us wrong WRT our suspicions of his alignment.
Quote from DoTArchon »
There's nothing to convince anyone of yet, I'm not even halfway through the reread. It was 2am when I got to the end of page 5, so I added the links for the quotes and dropped the notes I'd taken into the thread.
Okay. Any content you can provide us would be welcome.
---
I read Axel's Grape post on my phone and it was an amazing read. Let me read it on my desktop again and try to follow through with his thought process.
Will also note that I think Axel continues to be strongly +town, especially for this post. The beginning of this post makes it seem like he's going to slam-dunk Grape for being scum, but his traverse through his read is so /real/ (especially where he stops and realizes that I was the leading wagon at EoD, and how he uses that information to change how he evaluates Grape). If Axel is a wolf here, that is some real impressive gameplay.
Quote from Grapefruit21 »
Then, at #705, after a post from DV leads Grape to believe that DV will vote him at deadline over GJ, Grape seems to think that means it's over for him, and he'd better make a legacy post. And that's also remarkably calm for scum about to get voted out.
Yes, this is the only thing I disliked about Grape's EoD. His reaction to getting voted out felt flat/calm/emotionless, when I feel that maybe as town he would be more emotive about potentially getting lunched? It was a very quick "well, I guess I have to give my legacy reads" which felt weird.
That said, I think Grape is town for other reasons, so I'm fine tabling that off. I appreciate that you reached the same conclusion as me even if we worked with different pieces of evidence.
There are a couple of things on my to-do list WRT this game, but I'd prefer to do them later in the day when the lower posters have posted more content or gotten more engaged with the thread.
Still on Eco/DoTA. It's theoretically possible that I could be completely snowed by someone here (someone being one of Axel/Wisp), but I'm choosing to trust in my reads + the reads of others + Occam's Razor.
There is no actual way I am ever wading through all of Proph and Last's posts before Thursday. Grape was a bear, and they have like 10x more post between them.
I am wondering if I have to, though, as - unless it is exactly Proph/Last and they are actually post-counting us to death - it is only 1 there at worst, and that still leaves 1 Mafia and I think I would be pretty comfortable with voting Cantrip down at the bottom right now. (Sorry Eco.)
Maybe DoTA, but it would have to be based on D2 stuff I haven't reviewed yet, not the D1 comparisons.
Just to play devil's advocate here a bit: Is there a reason why you're interpreting my reads-reversal on Wisp in a more charitable way than your predecessor?
I can see Cantrip's point, but I did allude to why I disagree - I think if you had (as mafia) decided LW wasn't a viable execute you wouldn't switch over to a hard town read, you'd just shelve it with a "OK he's not the best but he still could be scum" to keep the option open. Even now you're telling Axel to just accept town LW, if you were mafia looking for a LW execute letting Axel have a run at LW would be great. I'm struggling to agree with the strength of your LW read, but I buy that you believe it.
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Grape also was an early vote and advocate for more pressure on the Osie slot, and he very specifically made a read that me and Osie were unaligned. He also stopped tunnelling Osie after he revealed his identity (and started tunnelling me). Do you have any thoughts on that, and what that means for his alignment?
I actually agreed that Osie's early read wall was a big red flag and I'd have pushed him for it if I'd been in the game. It is reasonable on the surface to retract to Osie read on reveal because the read wall a core component but Grape mentioned seeing Osie get "raked over the coals" for making one in another game. Grape did promise a reevaluation when he unvoted but it doesn't look like he ever did which is at best lazy. Moving over to his next scum read (you) is at least consistent.
I think it's slightly +town. The full reevalaution would have been much more so since without it the unvote could be tactical, but Grape had enough of a case in #290 that he could have easily stuck to his Osie vote as mafia if he'd wanted. Similarly the vote on Proph came at a time where both KJ and DoTA were softer wagons - I don't see why he would as mafia pick a fight with someone who agrees with him that Osie/GJ is not-mafia.
Quote from Prophylaxis »
This read is kind of hard to unpack for me because it's based a lot on my own experience and meta with Wisp, but it boils down to this. His attempts at solving and working out the gamestate feel real, and his interactions with specifically me also feel not-malicious and accompanied with a healthy amount of paranoia on his side, paranoia that I think would be much harder to fake or seem natural if he was a wolf.
I think my little blurb on him in 660 summarizes my townread on him decently well, but if I have some extra time I'll go ahead and put in words why I think he's so town.
I was kind of worried it was going to be like that. #660 is reasonable, but I really don't get the same sense of genunine engagement that you do - it feels more performative. I agree that if LW was mafia he could easily have reciprocated when you town read him, but his continuing changes of heart aren't really figuring you out, just reminding us that he hasn't nailed you down yet. Or could LW really Just Be Like That? If you could point me at some example games that illuminate the key meta behaviour you're leaning on that would help me get there.
When you first swapped to town LW, you said that you'd looked at his posts from a town mindset to see if they fit. Have you/would you like to do that with anyone else in the game? Or does it require a lot of meta familiarity? Do LW's posts fit if you try a scum mindset?
Also I agree with Proph that Axel starting the Grape post looking negative from Grape but ultimately coming to a positive conclusion is a Good Look for Axel. I am slightly nervous that Axel is doing re-reads rather than engaging with the thread, as it's allowing him to do control his own narrative as it were. But it's not like there's very much actually happening in thread to engage with, and there is a lot of content on Axel to analyse. I do have some things I'm looking for on how Axel spends the rest of the Day, and I can explain them later.
I can see Cantrip's point, but I did allude to why I disagree - I think if you had (as mafia) decided LW wasn't a viable execute you wouldn't switch over to a hard town read, you'd just shelve it with a "OK he's not the best but he still could be scum" to keep the option open. Even now you're telling Axel to just accept town LW, if you were mafia looking for a LW execute letting Axel have a run at LW would be great. I'm struggling to agree with the strength of your LW read, but I buy that you believe it.
Okay. I guess I can buy this? Just to play devil's advocate a little more, I'm not sure that I would leave Wisp on the mislunch table as scum given that I had quite a fair bit of pushback in the early game when I called him scum. I think I was the only player to actively scumread him at that stage. But fair, I can buy this line of reasoning.
Quote from Ecophagy »
I actually agreed that Osie's early read wall was a big red flag and I'd have pushed him for it if I'd been in the game. It is reasonable on the surface to retract to Osie read on reveal because the read wall a core component but Grape mentioned seeing Osie get "raked over the coals" for making one in another game.
I think Axel mentioned Osie geting ranked over the coals for doing that early reads-list, not Grape, unless I'm misremembering?
Quote from Ecophagy »
I think it's slightly +town. The full reevalaution would have been much more so since without it the unvote could be tactical, but Grape had enough of a case in #290 that he could have easily stuck to his Osie vote as mafia if he'd wanted. Similarly the vote on Proph came at a time where both KJ and DoTA were softer wagons - I don't see why he would as mafia pick a fight with someone who agrees with him that Osie/GJ is not-mafia.
This is true and adds another reason to believe why Grape is ~likely town? I thought Grape was trying to chain mislunches, but thinking about it more, scum Grape picking a fight with hyperposting me would be a gutsy move unless he really leveled up as scum in the past two years.
Quote from Ecophagy »
I was kind of worried it was going to be like that. #660 is reasonable, but I really don't get the same sense of genunine engagement that you do - it feels more performative. I agree that if LW was mafia he could easily have reciprocated when you town read him, but his continuing changes of heart aren't really figuring you out, just reminding us that he hasn't nailed you down yet. Or could LW really Just Be Like That? If you could point me at some example games that illuminate the key meta behaviour you're leaning on that would help me get there.
I just got done wolfing with Wisp in a game from ~two months ago and his scum game was notably weaker than his town game. If you want scum meta on him and me, knock yourself out. (I recommend clicking his name and ISOing him that way rather than remotely slog through the forum software over there)
Here's another recent town game of his I was using as cross-comparison. I'll also try to put into words why I think he's town sometime soon.
Quote from Ecophagy »
When you first swapped to town LW, you said that you'd looked at his posts from a town mindset to see if they fit. Have you/would you like to do that with anyone else in the game? Or does it require a lot of meta familiarity? Do LW's posts fit if you try a scum mindset?
I specifically did it with Wisp because I have a lot of experience with him. Haven't done so for anyone else. I was tunnelling Wisp and assuming everything he was doing was from a scum mindset earlier in the game.
I like Eco's observation of Axel in 916, but I think that if Axel is operating with limited time then he is making by far the best use of it by doing these rereads. I think they're way more enlightening in terms of figuring out his alignment than if he were to do something else. Plus, I'd take hard player/game PBPAs than real-time all day (I also can't imagine Axel realtiming unless he's really engaged or has a surplus of time on his hands; don't think he's that type of player)
Still want Killjoy to make not another narrow post every three days.
I feel bad for the people who don't have time to play this game but.. mafia is a time commitment. You signed up for this. I signed up for this knowing that my work-from-home schedule easily allows me to post easily. If my posting quantity is making the game actively unenjoyable or daunting for people, let me know.
Okay. I guess I can buy this? Just to play devil's advocate a little more, I'm not sure that I would leave Wisp on the mislunch table as scum given that I had quite a fair bit of pushback in the early game when I called him scum. I think I was the only player to actively scumread him at that stage. But fair, I can buy this line of reasoning.
The discrepancy presumably comes from Cantrip making that post in context, whereas I have the benefit of having more data points. I don't know if I'd have read it as towny as I am if I'd been in the game at the time.
Quote from Prophylaxis »
I think Axel mentioned Osie geting ranked over the coals for doing that early reads-list, not Grape, unless I'm misremembering?
Both Axel and Grape used the phrase in #206 and #225 respectively.
Quote from Prophylaxis »
I just got done wolfing with Wisp in a game from ~two months ago and his scum game was notably weaker than his town game. If you want scum meta on him and me, knock yourself out. (I recommend clicking his name and ISOing him that way rather than remotely slog through the forum software over there)
Here's another recent town game of his I was using as cross-comparison. I'll also try to put into words why I think he's town sometime soon.
I like Eco's observation of Axel in 916, but I think that if Axel is operating with limited time then he is making by far the best use of it by doing these rereads. I think they're way more enlightening in terms of figuring out his alignment than if he were to do something else. Plus, I'd take hard player/game PBPAs than real-time all day (I also can't imagine Axel realtiming unless he's really engaged or has a surplus of time on his hands; don't think he's that type of player).
I totally agree Axel is Goodposting. I'm just paranoid that Goodposting is what mafia-Axelrod would be trying to do as well, so I want to test the hypothesis starting with some meta. He definitely shouldn't stop.
Yo, everyone. We have two mafia. Who do you currently think they are? I would just like 2 names in your next post. Don’t care if you explain why right now. (I know some people have already done this, please just re-state for the record)
DoTA and Grape checked in but did not answer this. Killjoy has not checked in since I asked. Still want this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Acutally @Axel: When was the last time you were mafia? I fear the meta I have from when we were scumbuddies in 2009 might be a bit outdated...
I do not remember exactly what the last game was, but I believe it was 5-6 years ago at this point. And I also seem to recall it didn’t go especially well. I could probably figure it out scrolling back.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I do not remember exactly what the last game was, but I believe it was 5-6 years ago at this point. And I also seem to recall it didn’t go especially well. I could probably figure it out scrolling back.
If you would be so kind. Offsite is OK too if that was more recent.
If I die tonight snap vote wisp out of the game thanks.
That's all I got so far.
Once again, I has solved the game. It was here all along.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Reading Axel's wall on me and it has reminded me that I need to go reread the end of day. Definitely joining the chorus that the change in opinion on me through the wall just feels incredibly natural. Especially since given my lack of cache Axel could just try to bury me here with little chance of blowback. If he was scum he is A in great position and B definitely does not need to defend me there. Doesn't even feel like he was trying to leave himself a back door to come back to me tomorrow while putting me on the backburner to focus on Dota or Eco toDay.
Need to dive into Eco's entrance a bit deeper but I am trying to figure out the repeated interactions with Proph. The repeated invocation of playing devil's advocate just is pinging me. Proph is in the position of power here and I'm not sure why he's putting the WIFOM out there on his handling of Wisp and Eco's reaction to it. Feels overly defensive while still trying to maintain distance from his actions. Why is proph spilling wine about his own theoretical scum motivations here. Rather than just the more assertive tone he was using at EoD and garnering town reads from DV for, just feels wrong to me.
Okay. I guess I can buy this? Just to play devil's advocate a little more, I'm not sure that I would leave Wisp on the mislunch table as scum given that I had quite a fair bit of pushback in the early game when I called him scum. I think I was the only player to actively scumread him at that stage. But fair, I can buy this line of reasoning.
But can't we like try to find his partner, in theoretical wolf!Proph worlds so that I don't have a panic attack? I mean I don't want to do what I did in was it modern mafia? Where I had a break down, while being bullied by Killjoy
But like it's also NAI I think? Don't see outside context what specifically makes hypothetical statements wolfy? I do them as both alignments honestly, and I know many others do as well. With the slight jabs me and axel and you? Can't recall, against him, I mean I know I would react to almost every push on me immediately to try to quell fear and paronioa that could lead to a misyeet
Proph I need your help here on LW. During my reread I was nodding along with your early mafia-read of him - I thought he was overly defensive, inconsistent, trying pretty hard to seem relaxed/detached, and spent a lot of time agreeing and voting with you despite reading you as mafia. I picked out #230 as a broad "let's look at the low posters" very soon after you cased him in #181. Even in D2 while there's been more engagement he's been holding back waiting for results of this "game" which I'm very unimpressed by because needing to wait for everyone to answer is a great way to stall out when you have lurkers.
But, Proph, you've switched your read to pretty much ride or die town and I need you to help me because I don't get it. I get that you read him from a town mindset and it fit, and I can see some positives like it sounds like he's talking without a filter, and I think that his voting would be less erratic (or at least more tactical) if he was mafia. But I also feel like his votes have been pretty safe and he's tried quite hard to make sure we all know he's having trouble nailing down reads. So, uh, help please?
I have a few qusetions about this Eco, first why did you specifically ask Proph for help reading Wisp? Just because of the fact that he changed his read? I get that you ask a couple questions to him here but it feels like you could ask anyone town reading Wisp. Second what is your actual read? Do you think it's Wisp/Dota? Or are you just not convinced on him one way or another yet?
But like it's also NAI I think? Don't see outside context what specifically makes hypothetical statements wolfy? I do them as both alignments honestly, and I know many others do as well. With the slight jabs me and axel and you? Can't recall, against him, I mean I know I would react to almost every push on me immediately to try to quell fear and paronioa that could lead to a misyeet
They definitely aren't wolfy on their own, I know I do them too. It's about the change in tone from EoD where he was absolutely direct about things and that's what flipped DV's read on Proph.
As for finding his partner that's my goal for the rest of today.
Dudes, stop talking about other things and answer that question.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Three impossible teams, DV flipped town and I know my alignment. Definite scum in his early townreads...
@Dote what grabbed you about the Osie/Crossbell team building post? Feels weird to mention definite scum in his early town reads when talking about someone who flipped town.
Dudes, stop talking about other things and answer that question.
Been working on it. Definitely think the first is Proph. The second is probably Eco or KJ. Dota feels like the miss Proph is trying to push through before going to the rest of the PoE. Gun to my head I'd lean KJ right now but that will probably change as I do the reading today.
K so I think based on gameflow, perhaps the scum build of this game is one low poster/one high poster. This game doesn't feel overly dominated by scum (there's not like a couple townreads dominating the game that were somehow not nightkilled N1 or something like that) so not exactly Wisp/Proph.
I feel like Axel is being really passive to be the lead scum. He's making a lot of big opinion posts, but isn't pushing really. Axel hasn't really been too proactive either, so he could be scum.
Grape has 4 wolf reads in the GTHH in 775, which is unusual for scum to do. Also his progression on his reads feel natural.
Between Wisp and Proph, in the event that I'm right here and there's one in the top posters... I think Proph is less liekly to be scum there.
Axel or DotA + Wisp for scum? The scum don't really have another really good leader, and I feel like they have one.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Lmao axel for wolf, get the **** out of here, you give Proph the benefit of the doubt and not me? Doesn't need to be a leader when none of you are playing the game. Proph isn't even that unnatural enough to give those wolf controlling the narrative vibes. And if he is a wolf who is able to do this, is strictly because enough of you have 0 presence in this game.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Nah there is no more opportunities, I can't trust you to re-evaluate in lylo if get there if you are town, and still thinking axel is a wolf is just as god damn dangerous. I do not trust you at all anymore. Playing your own game was cute for a while, but now it's dangerous whether malicious or not.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
K so I think based on gameflow, perhaps the scum build of this game is one low poster/one high poster. This game doesn't feel overly dominated by scum (there's not like a couple townreads dominating the game that were somehow not nightkilled N1 or something like that) so not exactly Wisp/Proph.
What would a game dominated by scum feel like? Just a weird N1 kill? Are there other things you'd expect to see?
K so I think based on gameflow, perhaps the scum build of this game is one low poster/one high poster. This game doesn't feel overly dominated by scum (there's not like a couple townreads dominating the game that were somehow not nightkilled N1 or something like that) so not exactly Wisp/Proph.
What would a game dominated by scum feel like? Just a weird N1 kill? Are there other things you'd expect to see?
Too much consensus (which could also mean that scum are sitting back and enjoy the game state) but that's not happening here. Or like, psudo consensus where town doesn't have to fight hard for their scumreads because scum knows they're wrong.
This game, we can't seem to come to a conclusion on who is the scum and who is not.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Axel isn't eliminated as a wolf, but it's unlikely.
Why is it BS?
I gave u a chance with your first big set of reads. Making up bs as to why DV could be a wolf, then randomly re-evaluating that. You then reached so far to call me a wolf and not once have you tried to see me as town. You even suggesting that axel can be in the PoEz without even talking about his posts, just blows my mind. I don't think you are reading the game with the intention of solving from a town perspective, if you are even fully reading, or rather skimming to find what can keep people in the PoE. It's literally day 2, of a micro, with only one more mis yeet available. And I feel like y'all aren't even trying to remove people from the PoE. But you have the audacity to keep shading me and Proph? And now Axel?
Again I will ask those who have not played my game
List every living player, and tell me in exactly one word, if they are town, or a wolf, and you are not allowed to call them null. Or say anything else.
As for the reread I haven't forgotten (I need to carry on from page 6), things are just a bit rough here at the moment. Been struggling to concentrate these past few days (life issues).
Why would you have a teenager kick 5th????There has been enough pain and hot takes.Anyway going to do some of my own ISO'ing today. Malaise has crept in and it's not great.
Why doesn't it make sense? Either way?
Grape does a re-read of Osie in post #290. The TLDR take away is he still thinks Osie is scum, and the read is strengthening. Presumably this means stronger than the "late D1" strength he stated earlier.
There's a lot to pick through here. Grape says he doesn't like Osie's Rainbow read post where he gave an early opinion on everyone in the game. Even though this ended in a mild town-lean on Grape himself, Grape appears to not like it, thinking that Osie (1) harped too much on Grape voting second on someone during RVS, and (2) was very "staccato" in his other remarks about Grape - i.e. would comment what he liked about one post, and then what he didn't like about another post without showing how his thought processes evolved over time, and this seemed like a more scummy way to do an analysis of someone. Like throwing stuff out there to see if anything would stick to the wall. Grape also thought Osie was doing the same kind of thing with his assessment of DV (which ended in scum-lean). But not with Last, which he felt was more "fluid."
So Grape says he doesn't like Osie's "process" here, even before looking at the actual conclusions (which he also I guess disagrees with to some extent, though it is not clear exactly which ones he disagrees with - Grape does not really give any opinions on anyone else here). He also seems to allow that if it's really Osie, it's less of a red flag than it might otherwise be.
He questions Osie's meta dive on me, says it feels agenda driven, which, fair. He also seems to feel Osie might be sucking up to Proph at bit (appeasement?) in agreeing with him, and following him onto a vote on DoTA. I'm just going to quote his conclusion: And, eh. That is maybe my biggest take-away, in that Grape had already said he had a "late D1" strength read on Osie, and now after this re-read the read was "increasing in intensity," but it still doesn't seem all that strong. So there's some disconnect for me there.
I don't love that Grape has Osie and Proph as his bottom two read while at the same time saying he specifically doesn't think they are scum together. That's just not how my mind works. Then, when Osie reveals himself, Grape seems to think that weakens a bunch of his points enough to the point he Unvotes pending re-evaluation. Don't care a lot for this, in as much as it really seems to be relying almost entirely on meta.
Grape doesn't really give much in the way of opinions on other people until #543 when he comes down with a vote for Proph. I haven't re-read the post of Proph's that Grape didn't like (in which Proph is explaining why he thinks Osie is Town), and I don't really want to, in as much as this post is already too long. I feel like I have to put an assessment of this particular vote on hold until I do, and then decide if what Grape is saying is reasonable. The fact that it's largely a single post prompting the vote isn't great, but I acknowledge that Grape previously expressed suspicion of Proph.
In #552 Grape says that Proph's wall was "howling", which seems a stronger statement than what he said before. And he's still doing the "Proph not aligned with Osie" (who is now GJ) thing, and seems to be using it as an excuse to not look at GJ.
Something probably noteworthy. I did not realize that, with literally 50 minutes to go until the dealine, Proph was actually in the top spot (this was the HR post at #651 that I missed). In my mind, Osie/GJ was the leading candidate, and I knew there had been traditional last minute flailing, but I did not realize until this moment how close it was for Proph. This means I now have to actually go and look at that whole sequence again, which I totally do not have time to do. But, what I was saying, with 50 minutes until deadline, this was the vote:
Grape then comes back and indicates he's still happy with his Proph vote at #654. DV is the one who literally flips the balance in the very next post, #655, by switching from Proph to GJ. That is insta-followed by Last at #657 (I have no idea what Last was saying about GJ before this. I have a feeling he was saying "Town", but maybe he was conflicted, and maybe this was strictly a deadline thing). Last then follows Proph and switches to Grape.
Grape sticks on Proph though. Not really saying much about GJ. They just appear to be a non-aligned pair for him, and when one goes up the other goes down.
GJ comes back and adds his vote to Grape, and now they are actually tied 3-3, with 17 minutes left. To his credit, Grape does NOT hop the GJ wagon immediately to preserve himself here. In fact, in #686 he says that GJ doesn't really seem like a wolf to him. And I want to say that's remarkably cool-headed, if Grape is scum. I can only imagine, but if I was scum getting run up at deadline and there was a viable counter-wagon, I feel like I would find a way to get on it. Or at least start making some posts that could influence others to get on the counter-wagon. Something more frantic and/or desperate than what I'm seeing here. Grape does say, at #693 that he guesses he should vote for GJ, which is kind of what I'm talking about, but also says he doesn't feel great about it, will hold off for 10 minutes, and encourages people to come back to the Proph wagon. Still pretty cool-headed if scum.
Grape makes a point I considered myself, which was the way Proph very vocally encouraged Osie to reveal his true identity, in the hopes that our knowing it was Osie would change our reads of him. I thought it strange at the time, and (when envisioning Proph/Osie wolf teams) imagined him doing this as a way to try and save his partner, as at least a few people (myself included) had said that if Crossbell was Osie, at least some of what he had posted would be more explainable as Town. We now know Proph. obviously wasn't doing that to save his partner, but I feel like it was a legitimate speculation.
Then, at #705, after a post from DV leads Grape to believe that DV will vote him at deadline over GJ, Grape seems to think that means it's over for him, and he'd better make a legacy post. And that's also remarkably calm for scum about to get voted out.
The "Legacy" post is at #715. As these things go, I guess it's fine. It's weird because GJ is the actual vote leader, but Grape seems to be assuming that DV is about to switch his vote at the last second. DV isn't actually around, as far as I can tell though. Killjoy finishes it off with 1 minute to deadline (though this was almost irrelevant, as we are on plurality and GJ would have been lynched anyway had Killjoy not voted).
I guess in scum-Killjoy worlds there's a world where it's him and Grape and Killjoy was voting here to ensure that there wouldn't be a last second switch onto his partner, but I don't really think that.
Grape continues to give some more of his reads, even after GJ is voted out. And frankly that's another really good look. Maybe he didn't realize the deadline had past? No real reason for him to continue on that way as scum though. He would have just been breathing a big sigh of relief, I think is all.
And, man, I wasn't sure before all that stuff at the end, but the end really shot Grape up. I have a hard time seeing all those posts coming from Mafia, esp. Mafia on the edge, in that way. It all really looks pretty Town to me.
Verdict: Now thinking not Mafia. Probably above Killjoy.
I am wondering if I have to, though, as - unless it is exactly Proph/Last and they are actually post-counting us to death - it is only 1 there at worst, and that still leaves 1 Mafia and I think I would be pretty comfortable with voting Cantrip down at the bottom right now. (Sorry Eco.)
Maybe DoTA, but it would have to be based on D2 stuff I haven't reviewed yet, not the D1 comparisons.
And Axel, what I said earlier remains true - just slot Last and I as town if you don't want to read through all of our content. I won't deny that I am quite interested in reading a dissertation of my posts and how I've been playing this game. However, I agree with you that it will be an arduous task.
Gimme a sec to catch up.
I mean if we miss here, my poe will still be one of dota/Cantrip, and then Killjoy/Proph as the other wolf
I'm quite satisfied with grape and you.
Just to play devil's advocate here a bit: Is there a reason why you're interpreting my reads-reversal on Wisp in a more charitable way than your predecessor? Here's what he said:
Grape also was an early vote and advocate for more pressure on the Osie slot, and he very specifically made a read that me and Osie were unaligned. He also stopped tunnelling Osie after he revealed his identity (and started tunnelling me). Do you have any thoughts on that, and what that means for his alignment?
This read is kind of hard to unpack for me because it's based a lot on my own experience and meta with Wisp, but it boils down to this. His attempts at solving and working out the gamestate feel real, and his interactions with specifically me also feel not-malicious and accompanied with a healthy amount of paranoia on his side, paranoia that I think would be much harder to fake or seem natural if he was a wolf.
I think my little blurb on him in 660 summarizes my townread on him decently well, but if I have some extra time I'll go ahead and put in words why I think he's so town.
Okay. Any content you can provide us would be welcome.
---
I read Axel's Grape post on my phone and it was an amazing read. Let me read it on my desktop again and try to follow through with his thought process.
Will also note that I think Axel continues to be strongly +town, especially for this post. The beginning of this post makes it seem like he's going to slam-dunk Grape for being scum, but his traverse through his read is so /real/ (especially where he stops and realizes that I was the leading wagon at EoD, and how he uses that information to change how he evaluates Grape). If Axel is a wolf here, that is some real impressive gameplay.
Yes, this is the only thing I disliked about Grape's EoD. His reaction to getting voted out felt flat/calm/emotionless, when I feel that maybe as town he would be more emotive about potentially getting lunched? It was a very quick "well, I guess I have to give my legacy reads" which felt weird.
That said, I think Grape is town for other reasons, so I'm fine tabling that off. I appreciate that you reached the same conclusion as me even if we worked with different pieces of evidence.
There are a couple of things on my to-do list WRT this game, but I'd prefer to do them later in the day when the lower posters have posted more content or gotten more engaged with the thread.
Still on Eco/DoTA. It's theoretically possible that I could be completely snowed by someone here (someone being one of Axel/Wisp), but I'm choosing to trust in my reads + the reads of others + Occam's Razor.
Boo Axel. You know you can trust me!
I can see Cantrip's point, but I did allude to why I disagree - I think if you had (as mafia) decided LW wasn't a viable execute you wouldn't switch over to a hard town read, you'd just shelve it with a "OK he's not the best but he still could be scum" to keep the option open. Even now you're telling Axel to just accept town LW, if you were mafia looking for a LW execute letting Axel have a run at LW would be great. I'm struggling to agree with the strength of your LW read, but I buy that you believe it.
I actually agreed that Osie's early read wall was a big red flag and I'd have pushed him for it if I'd been in the game. It is reasonable on the surface to retract to Osie read on reveal because the read wall a core component but Grape mentioned seeing Osie get "raked over the coals" for making one in another game. Grape did promise a reevaluation when he unvoted but it doesn't look like he ever did which is at best lazy. Moving over to his next scum read (you) is at least consistent.
I think it's slightly +town. The full reevalaution would have been much more so since without it the unvote could be tactical, but Grape had enough of a case in #290 that he could have easily stuck to his Osie vote as mafia if he'd wanted. Similarly the vote on Proph came at a time where both KJ and DoTA were softer wagons - I don't see why he would as mafia pick a fight with someone who agrees with him that Osie/GJ is not-mafia.
I was kind of worried it was going to be like that. #660 is reasonable, but I really don't get the same sense of genunine engagement that you do - it feels more performative. I agree that if LW was mafia he could easily have reciprocated when you town read him, but his continuing changes of heart aren't really figuring you out, just reminding us that he hasn't nailed you down yet. Or could LW really Just Be Like That? If you could point me at some example games that illuminate the key meta behaviour you're leaning on that would help me get there.
When you first swapped to town LW, you said that you'd looked at his posts from a town mindset to see if they fit. Have you/would you like to do that with anyone else in the game? Or does it require a lot of meta familiarity? Do LW's posts fit if you try a scum mindset?
I think Axel mentioned Osie geting ranked over the coals for doing that early reads-list, not Grape, unless I'm misremembering?
This is true and adds another reason to believe why Grape is ~likely town? I thought Grape was trying to chain mislunches, but thinking about it more, scum Grape picking a fight with hyperposting me would be a gutsy move unless he really leveled up as scum in the past two years.
I just got done wolfing with Wisp in a game from ~two months ago and his scum game was notably weaker than his town game. If you want scum meta on him and me, knock yourself out. (I recommend clicking his name and ISOing him that way rather than remotely slog through the forum software over there)
Here's another recent town game of his I was using as cross-comparison. I'll also try to put into words why I think he's town sometime soon.
I specifically did it with Wisp because I have a lot of experience with him. Haven't done so for anyone else. I was tunnelling Wisp and assuming everything he was doing was from a scum mindset earlier in the game.
Still want Killjoy to make not another narrow post every three days.
I'll see myself out.
The discrepancy presumably comes from Cantrip making that post in context, whereas I have the benefit of having more data points. I don't know if I'd have read it as towny as I am if I'd been in the game at the time.
Both Axel and Grape used the phrase in #206 and #225 respectively.
Thanks, I will have a look.
I totally agree Axel is Goodposting. I'm just paranoid that Goodposting is what mafia-Axelrod would be trying to do as well, so I want to test the hypothesis starting with some meta. He definitely shouldn't stop.
If you would be so kind. Offsite is OK too if that was more recent.
I can't remember my own games, but I can sure remember other people's
Reading Axel's wall on me and it has reminded me that I need to go reread the end of day. Definitely joining the chorus that the change in opinion on me through the wall just feels incredibly natural. Especially since given my lack of cache Axel could just try to bury me here with little chance of blowback. If he was scum he is A in great position and B definitely does not need to defend me there. Doesn't even feel like he was trying to leave himself a back door to come back to me tomorrow while putting me on the backburner to focus on Dota or Eco toDay.
Need to dive into Eco's entrance a bit deeper but I am trying to figure out the repeated interactions with Proph. The repeated invocation of playing devil's advocate just is pinging me. Proph is in the position of power here and I'm not sure why he's putting the WIFOM out there on his handling of Wisp and Eco's reaction to it. Feels overly defensive while still trying to maintain distance from his actions. Why is proph spilling wine about his own theoretical scum motivations here. Rather than just the more assertive tone he was using at EoD and garnering town reads from DV for, just feels wrong to me.
I have a few qusetions about this Eco, first why did you specifically ask Proph for help reading Wisp? Just because of the fact that he changed his read? I get that you ask a couple questions to him here but it feels like you could ask anyone town reading Wisp. Second what is your actual read? Do you think it's Wisp/Dota? Or are you just not convinced on him one way or another yet?
They definitely aren't wolfy on their own, I know I do them too. It's about the change in tone from EoD where he was absolutely direct about things and that's what flipped DV's read on Proph.
As for finding his partner that's my goal for the rest of today.
@Dote what grabbed you about the Osie/Crossbell team building post? Feels weird to mention definite scum in his early town reads when talking about someone who flipped town.
Been working on it. Definitely think the first is Proph. The second is probably Eco or KJ. Dota feels like the miss Proph is trying to push through before going to the rest of the PoE. Gun to my head I'd lean KJ right now but that will probably change as I do the reading today.
I'll vote eco before I vote killjoy. I don't care, either way, eco or Dota. It's different for me since I'm not currently hedging on Proph.
I'm gunna think about stuff again tomorrow
Grape/Axel, are completely off the table for me now
Kill/Dota/Eco/Proph
Is where all the wolves lay, tho Proph is still completely off the table day 2 for me
I feel like Axel is being really passive to be the lead scum. He's making a lot of big opinion posts, but isn't pushing really. Axel hasn't really been too proactive either, so he could be scum.
Grape has 4 wolf reads in the GTHH in 775, which is unusual for scum to do. Also his progression on his reads feel natural.
Between Wisp and Proph, in the event that I'm right here and there's one in the top posters... I think Proph is less liekly to be scum there.
Axel or DotA + Wisp for scum? The scum don't really have another really good leader, and I feel like they have one.
Suggest I'm a wolf again, I dare you.
That post is honestly just bs it might just be that that DV was completely correct with his PoE of Eco/Killjoy
You/Eco makes sense as well.
It could be a middling player with a lower player if you're not scum I suppose.
Why is it BS?
What would a game dominated by scum feel like? Just a weird N1 kill? Are there other things you'd expect to see?
This game, we can't seem to come to a conclusion on who is the scum and who is not.
I'm going to sleep, this is irritating
List every living player, and tell me in exactly one word, if they are town, or a wolf, and you are not allowed to call them null. Or say anything else.