Ignoring Cross' alignment here, Grapefruit scum leans can be hit or miss
but whats important, is deciding if he is pushing it maliciously or not, and I don't see that
neither from how he outlined his thoughts, nor in regards to how I perceive his ability as a wolf to outline scum leans
yes I am low-key shading his wolf game here
anyways, off to bed
I am liking Cross on a macro level, but as I stated before I still have quells with his early game
and I don't really care about his thoughts on you, nor your thoughts on him
if I'm not dead tonight, can I death tunnel you? Lol
@Prophylaxis - Is this a mafia-slip for Lastwhisper?
I'm not a super fan of this question, but possibly I don't understand it. What were you asking here? What was the slip you possibly thought you saw that you wanted Proph to confirm if it was a thing that scum-Wisp does?
I was attempting to engage Proph on something that he might have a better idea about than I would, and assuage a tinfoil that Wisp was trying to LAMIST his way into a townread. I still have some tinfoils there heh.
The team sort in 155 is just incomprehensible to me. I have no clue how any Cantrip teams were eliminated at that point. Cantrip had 1 post at that point. 1.
Only a very good one for Cantrip though.
I think this might be confirmation bias because I've been scum reading Cross through this ISO but the friendly meme'ing with Proph and DV feels like if not a pocket attempt and attempt to get in their good graces.
Proph knows who I am and DV could figure it out if he thought about it.
Barn Wisp. I disagree with Grape's Crossbell read, but I do like how he is reading me in relation to his read on Crossbell, and his two posts above show a decent amount of nuance I wouldn't expect from scum Grape. Plus, I like how he townread me for pivoting on Wisp and then dropped his read on me in the same post. It feels like a real thought he had.
(Crossbell, Wisp, Grapefruit) town.
(killjoy, Axel, DoTA, DV, Cantrip) <- two scum in five?
So after I pointed out that Cross was scumreading Axel without having any interactions with each other, they've now got a series of posts that still don't go anywhere towards moving the game forward. And Cross has moved their vote to me.
I have pointed out that part of my issue with Axel is that they haven't been doing enough to progress the game. But given that you two are likely teammates, I'm not surprised that you're trying to handwave my actual read on Axel.
If you feel Axel isn't doing much, then why didn't you poke him for reads, analysis, explanations, anything while the two of you had your back and forth?
@DoTArchon: I want you to zoom out a little. What are your thoughts on players in this game not named Killjoy, Crossbell, or Axelrod?
Also, can you link me your most completed town/scum games? I feel like we've played together in the past, but my memory is not great regarding games on this site because of the consecutive wolf rands I had from 2016 to.. 2020 lol.
I'll give some thoughts on the rest later when I have time, but for games I played see below:
That is...a weird way to conclude your statement. Your suspicion of Cross is apparent, so I get that you think they're either W/W or T/W, but why say it this way instead of just pondering whether Axel is a buddy or not? That doesn't seem to jive with your "are they trying to figure each other out" possibility, either, as that would only happen with T/T.
If I'm wrong about Cross being scum then I have to reevaluate my reads and that includes Cross's scum read of Axel.
I feel like my question (in 265) was essentially what KJ asked in 267. Why did you give me this dismissive response while going into detail when responding to KJ?
@Cantripmancer - Because we're so diametrically opposed on our reads of the slot, can you talk to me in more detail about what you don't like about Proph? I await a glorious wall of evaluation.
Sure, but it'll have to wait until tonight. Because I'm out of time.
(As a random aside: One of my bigger pet peeves I've seen floating around recently is when people say "lunch me right now in f7/f5/whatever so I don't get mislunched in f3". This is such a stupid stance to take because if you know you're town, and there is one wolf remaining, then advocating for your own mislunch just so that you don't bear responsibility in f3 is basically you just throwing the game away. You should just work on lunching literally any other person, because that's someone's alignment you don't know, and that's a chance that you can end the game right there. If you DO end up in f3 or whatever, the game isn't lost. You might have to give it your all and/or try your hardest, but the game isn't over just because you got to f3.)
FWIW, I've recently made comments like this, and (for me) it's not "oh, the game is over; I hate losing!!!" going into the f3. It's that I feel a lot of pressure and responsibility to do a good job, and I seem to inevitably choke.
Note to self: had 278, 280, 281, 299 in the multi-quote to respond to when I ran out of time.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
For jumping a second vote on a town player before that player entered the thread.
On a scale of RVS to Final 3 how serious is this vote?
Firmly RVS.
Actually, have you considered it seriously? This game size is 3/4 of the usual size. From a theory standpoint, is the second vote on a hypothetical town player in RVS actually be more significant than not?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I am continually amazed/amused by people who continually remark about how I don't seem to be doing anything early on D1 (or on D1 period) in a mafia game and seem to think this is suspect, and yet, I think literally every single person in this game has seen me do it, so, like, really people? And I already know it's going to be doubly bad in this game because there are no claims and (historically, at least) that's easily 50% of how I suss people out.
I mean, it is entirely possible that if I drew a scum card for the first time in forever, I might try to coast on "Axel never does anything on D1 anyway" for a while, but the reason I would hypothetically be doing that would be because I do it as Town. It would be the definition of not alignment indicative, at least for me.
This doesn't mean I'm just going to shrug my shoulders D1. On the contrary, I really want to get it right, but it's also going to be really hard from where I'm sitting. I have exactly one hard data point - me Town. So anyone who expresses suspicions of me is (1) innocently mistaken, or (2) scum. I may be able to garner a few impressions there. If I can get a hard-Town read on someone else, I might get another data point, but I'm pretty unlikely to get a read like that that I really feel confident about this early.
All that said, I'm going to go re-read some stuff, and see if anything sticks out.
I understand what you're saying here (and I am familiar with your meta, hence why I did not join Crossbell on their suspicion of you). However, you have to keep in mind that this is a nine player game with six day deadlines, and we do not have the benefit of the game setup to bail us out. On the contrary, actually - this setup is quite scumsided, and I would not be surprised if they end up winning in the end here.
If this was a 12 player game with two week deadlines, then sure. But given that we need to solve for every player in the game through the Day phase, and keeping in mind the short deadline length, you need to kick it into gear earlier than usual if you're town here. (If you're scum, then go ahead and continue slanking )
Two things:
(1) It's well and good to say "this game is smaller and has shorter deadlines than other games, therefore, you can't afford to play as laid back on D1 as you usually do." I can understand, and even agree with that. You understand, however, that this is something entirely different from saying "he's not playing like his "usual" meta (ignoring for the moment how true or not that might be). It's almost the opposite. So, which thing are you currently being suspicious of me for? Not acting like myself, or not kicking it into gear fast enough?
(2) You say here you didn't "join" Crossbell in their suspicion of me, but right after Crossbell's big "meta" post, what you said was:
I see where Crossbell is coming from wrt Axel but again, I still want to take the "wait and see" approach, given what I know about Axel's meta.
What did you mean, "I see where Crossbell is coming from" if you didn't agree with it?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm sure they explain this later (maybe it's just the "meta" post), but, given that I had posted absolutely nothing to this point that could possibly have merited a "serious" vote, this does make me raise the eyebrow a bit.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Know this is par for the course for their playstyle, but would appreciate if Crossbell would explain their mindset a little more, rather than list out town/scumreads with scant explanation.
Grapefruit, talk to me about how your read on Crossbell has developed over these past 24 hours?
I wouldn't say it's developed so much as my initial impression has been negative. Didn't like the mafia slip question towards you at all (looked like asking for permission to push) and the town read on you seemed flimsy. I also find their presence to be a bit jaggedy and uneven. A weird mixture of relaxation and discomfort that I can't quite figure out. Knowing they're familiar with everyone here makes me lean towards the discomfort I'm picking up on be from rolling scum but it's a minor thing.
TLDR a couple reads that feel like they skipped a step and weird tone stuff I'm putting way too much stock into.
I have positive feelings about GF. That is all.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
DV - might still be a wolf, but I am mind-melding with his thought process, I think he is decent enough at pushing an agenda, but I don't think this is how he approaches it as a wolf. Overall I think he is veeeeery likely to be town
Axel - gets to be below DV for claiming to be town in his post, I like those things, fight me.
Grape - might be pocketing me, but I like his posts overall
Everyone else - don't really care yet?
Proph - I'm not even thinking about his meta, I think its an unfun way to interact with Proph. I do very much dislike his handling of me, and pieces of that wall post, that include calling me out for not placing my vote, when that statement was should not have really led to that conclusion, unless you are trying to push malicious thoughts? He definitely needs to like blow me away today, for me to change this, possibly?
Crossbell - Something, something, about straddling the line of like knowing who we are, but also playing like he doesn't know who we are, kinda rubs me the wrong way. I think Grape explains it a lot better
24 hours in, but I would be baffled if there is not a wolf between proph and fake proph.
Feels like I hate all the people that hate me, guess that's how the cookie crumbles
So, this is maybe particular to me, but I don't think that scum-Last says this about me here. There's really not any benefit to him in doing so. Why "town read" me when he certainly doesn't have to, and for not even a very good reason? Yah, it's flimsy and Last is prone to flip on a dime, so, it is also way premature for me to town-read him for this, but it feels like something more likely to come from a Town-Last. To just put this gut read out there and not care what it looks like. Whereas scum-Last might be a little more hesitant to town read me early for no real reason.
Plus, as a bonus, the rest of this post is actually okay too.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
FWIW, I've recently made comments like this, and (for me) it's not "oh, the game is over; I hate losing!!!" going into the f3. It's that I feel a lot of pressure and responsibility to do a good job, and I seem to inevitably choke.
I think if the town ever gets to a final 3 (like say, there's 7 people alive with one scum, they mislunch twice and then it becomes f3), then every townie who was alive at the time deserves some of the blame for letting the game reach that state. If everyone is working hard and doing their job (aka, not getting complacent), then a larger number of games should be ending before then.
Yes, sometimes you do literally have to go through all the PoE, and sometimes the last scum is indeed playing quite well, but mafia is still a team game. The responsibility might end up going to one person in the end, but it was everyone else's efforts that made the game reach that state. /theory
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Quote from Axelrod »
(1) It's well and good to say "this game is smaller and has shorter deadlines than other games, therefore, you can't afford to play as laid back on D1 as you usually do." I can understand, and even agree with that. You understand, however, that this is something entirely different from saying "he's not playing like his "usual" meta (ignoring for the moment how true or not that might be). It's almost the opposite. So, which thing are you currently being suspicious of me for? Not acting like myself, or not kicking it into gear fast enough?
I'm not suspicious of you at the moment. You are in my PoE for not doing a whole lot when other players have worked themselves into my town core, but I am waiting on you to read the game and produce content before I begin my interrogation of you.
(I put you in my gun-to-head hypothetical scumteam because I have a sneaking suspicion that the scum are having trouble integrating themselves into the game thread. It's a YOLO guess)
Quote from Axelrod »
What did you mean, "I see where Crossbell is coming from" if you didn't agree with it?
I see where Crossbell is coming from because I have made snap judgement reads/RVS/first post reads in the past, and I felt that Crossbell was doing something similar.
Not really sure why Wisp likes Axel for claiming to be town in his post 13, when Crossbell literally did a similar thing in post 11.
(townsplaining gets old real quick)
Already mentioned, but what I said and what Crossbell said were really different things, and said in different ways. I have a hard time seeing you draw this parallel in your mind.
And then there was Crossbell's big review post. TLDR: I do not like this post.
Crossbell - Town. Relaxed and focused when present. Joking around a very small amount early on, but quickly sorting.
Feels slightly weird to me, joke notwithstanding. When I do these, I will often list myself at the top, but I don't think I've ever done a joke analysis of myself.
Prophylaxis - Townlean. I like their response to my existence and I like how they took things seriously even only 20ish posts in. Post #30 is a good look for them; I like the reasoning behind calling out Wisp and DV, and I agree that Wisp seemed to be stumbling early on. #39 is a good response to DV and Wisp. Pushing for more from both. I particularly like the last paragraph. My thanks for reminding me and Grapefruit to elaborate in #71. Post #77 is a good way to joke while pushing Wisp to do more. Their read on me is likely based on them thinking that I'm a mutual friend of ours, but it's not awful. Post #88 is a good callout. Townread.
And here I just disagree. The conclusion of Proph in post #30 and his vote for Wisp was on the basis that Wisp feels "incredibly clumsy" to him, and I don't see that. So when I see people agreeing with something I don't agree with, again the
Grapefruit21 - I generally don't like second votes in RVS but ehh, it's mostly NAI. The Wisp question is kinda random; sorta looks like busywork. The Proph question is okay. While I don't agree with the wording of Post #66, I think I like the flow/point of it overall? Post #69 just is unexplained. Out of nowhere. I like the thought process in Post #73 even though it's wrong. Mild Townlean.
I have a mild Town read on GF also, but I don't know why they even bring up the "second vote in RVS" thing only to dismiss it. This post reads more like a neutral read, with the calling the Wisp question "random," another Proph question "okay," and another post "unexplained," but ends with Town-lean based on liking the overall "flow/point" of another post (despite disagreeing with the wording) and then liking the "thought process" of a final post (even though it's wrong). All those qualifications really call this read into question for me.
Wisp - Comes in a little social, looking okay. But their first mechanical post is talking about death-tunneling Proph if Wisp is alive. Which, while jokey, is awkward and could be scum trying to derpclear. They responded jokingly to me prodding out about a possible slip with a stiffness and odd confidence I don't like. And then they have a strange follow-up of semi-politely approaching me as if they want to me to talk to them but don't necessarily care about my answer since if I don't shift to a townread on them, they can just kill me. Wisp then discusses Proph as an authority on them. Post #29 feels like they're being cheeky to direct attention away from scumtells. And then they invalidate their only implied reads with Post #32. I agree wholeheartedly with Proph in #33, that Wisp is playing reactively. Post #35 feels like Wisp is trying to fall back on people not taking them seriously but that doesn't get to happen any more. #36 and #37 are stilted AF but that may just be #TooWispyToBeAWolf. Their responses in #55 and #56 ] to my posts are very handwavey. A slight wolfping there. Readlist is... very unexplained. Two hours later to expand on reads, and still doesn't really expand on some of them? Do not like at all. Despite my misgivings, I think I'm overall at very slightly above null right now mostly because #TooWispyToBeAWolf, but I want to see them get energetic for a bit.
This is another post where, like, everything they are saying about Wisp is bad. Everything seems to be reason for suspicion. But they end on "slightly above null" for no discernable reason at all. This is just not my town mind-set. If I'm town-leaning someone, I don't go on and on about the things I don't like about them. It's irrational.
Killjoy - Very slightly above null. #41 isn't bad, it just isn't enough. The focus on the Axel/DoTA potential world is not bad. Keeping an eye on that for later.
Killjoy had exactly 1 post with any game content in it to this point. Now, I also kind of liked that 1 post, but for apparently different reasons. Killjoy was NOT, as far as I can tell, floating an "Axel/DoTA are potential scum-buddies" theory. He was specifically saying that the fact I left Timetwister (DoTA) off my list of Blue cards to vote probably means we WOULDN'T be scum-buddies together. So, I don't even know what Crossbell is talking about here.
Cantripmancer - Hasn't posted because it's the weekend. Null.
Okay
DoTArchon - Asks Wisp a question for their first real bit of content. Okay. Hasn't really posted since. Null to slight scumlean.
Don't know why this is even a slight scumlean unless what they're really just saying is "DoTA hasn't posted enough for me and I suspect lurking scum." Without quite saying that. Because it would be silly to accuse someone of lurking less than 100 posts into the game.
DV - Starts out with Post #28. A linking conditional that is particularly easy to make as mafia. Then they come along with Post #34 and are hard defending Wisp partially as an OMGUS over low pressure. Their read on the Proph push on Wisp seems to take the push much more seriously than it is. They then come along with Post #62, not-very-explained thoughts on my posts. Post #79 I could see being an honest mistake, but I also feel like they're getting away with not doing much since people are treading on eggshells around them to avoid them blowing up. "Don't worry about me not being careful on reading the game." Eww. Post #93 and it's follow-up in #95 are the first real-looking and solid thoughts I've seen from DV all game. I kinda like it, but it doesn't make up for the previous posts. I'mma leave DV at a scumlean for now.
DV mentioned already, but to characterize what DV did as "hard defending" Wisp is such a stretch that it really kind of boggles the mind. DV forgetting who he was voting for is possibly a legit concern, but that's about all I see there.
Axelrod - Needed to explain their RVS vote. Feels generally a bit awkward; possibly their first scumgame in a while? The only talk in the game they really do after that point is still playing defense, it seems. Not a good start for one of the better town players on the site. Scumread.
To quote Luke Skywalker: Amazing, every word of what you just said was wrong.
Unvote
Vote: Crossbell
This may be as good as it gets for D1 (caveat, I have 5 more pages to review, but this is pretty bad.)
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Crossbell: Are you able to just, out who you are?
It feels pretty angle-y that I am 95-99% sure I know who you are, but other players in the game do not have a clue, despite you saying that you've played with everyone in this game before. I can respect if you want to keep it hidden, but it's making it tough for me to both engage with you and talk to other players about you given the identity bifurcation here.
Looking forward to Axel catching up on the next five pages.
I haven't played with the person behind the Crossbell alt very much, but I don't think they will flip scum. I'll try to put into words why I think they are town later tonight.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hey DV, I'd like to know why you think Crossbell potentially has inside info for what is obviously a reaction to Proph's play? That post is obviously "Proph is town [based on something unsaid as of yet] but you jumped straight to inside info/discrediting. What gives there?
When I'm scum I typically throw out some town reads and I've observed almost all scum to do so. They know X person is town, and thus get there through incredibly weak reads. Its not an inside read as Proph seemed to suggest based upon some setup knowledge its literal scum inside info knowing that a person is town.
I guess you could call it a scum slip, but its not really that its more of a scum supposition.
Hm.
DV/Cross probably not aligned I think. Cross could have just... had a weak read on Proph. Town does that. It's a thing.
But I don't think DV makes such a weak scumread on a buddy that makes him look so bad, especially not this early.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@DV how did you arrive your two groups? How much of it just scum reads versus partner worldbuilding? Your stance on me seems to have worsened on basically nothing as far as I can see.
I hadn't said anything about Grape at all prior to my posting of my semi sorting hat. I'm not exactly sure what to make of the question Grape is asking. Going to have to do some thinking on Grape tonight. Like his big post, don't like this question he made.
Dota seems like Low Hanging Fruit to me. Strongly oppose that elim right now.
Got side tracked feel decently confidant KJ is town.
Axel seems decently town to me at this point.
Really still eating away at the Crossbell response to me where I pointed out that the read was weak and so I suspected scum adhoc making up a reason to town read someone. Crossbell's response "I'm more tricky than that."
Like no you're not. You're either town with a weak read or scum with a weak read.
Basically I'm asking did you flip heads or tails. And Cross's response is "Heads, but I'm tricky". Great.
Hey DV, I'd like to know why you think Crossbell potentially has inside info for what is obviously a reaction to Proph's play? That post is obviously "Proph is town [based on something unsaid as of yet] but you jumped straight to inside info/discrediting. What gives there?
When I'm scum I typically throw out some town reads and I've observed almost all scum to do so. They know X person is town, and thus get there through incredibly weak reads. Its not an inside read as Proph seemed to suggest based upon some setup knowledge its literal scum inside info knowing that a person is town.
I guess you could call it a scum slip, but its not really that its more of a scum supposition.
Sure, but I'm not that predictable, lmao.
I mean there is really only two ways to play scum.
You either lock in reads and don't shift.
Or you waffle hard and leave every possible out you can to jump onto a wagon.
Yes you can color in between, but its really one of these two extremes. You can't outplay this inevitability.
Meh?
Also, would you say this applies to any alignment? Also calling my reads weak is a pretty surface-level attack. I might even call it a "weak read."
Calling someone's reads surface level is not a surface level attack. Its a pertinent attack. Cross isn't even denying that their reads are surface level, its just a straight up a strawman argument mixed with a what aboutism.
This is my first time randing town on this site in literal forever, and I took a long break from mafia such that I forgot most people's meta.
Why do you ask?
When I'm reading your posts, I see a lot of myself in them. Old me who asked a lot of questions that perhaps I didn't think about in too much depth first. It's unlike you.
Like when you compare Axel calling himself town in the first post and Cross doing it. The intent is very different I think. Cross meant it to be more subtle. Axel was very open with it. It's not the same.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Pretty sure Cross is at L-1, so we should be careful with our votes.
Quote from Killjoy »
When I'm reading your posts, I see a lot of myself in them. Old me who asked a lot of questions that perhaps I didn't think about in too much depth first. It's unlike you.
I'll shoot you a question then - when was the last time you have played with town Prophylaxis? Can't imagine any meta on me would very useful given that my last town game on MTGS was literally five years ago, if I remember correctly.
Pretty sure Cross is at L-1, so we should be careful with our votes.
Quote from Killjoy »
When I'm reading your posts, I see a lot of myself in them. Old me who asked a lot of questions that perhaps I didn't think about in too much depth first. It's unlike you.
I'll shoot you a question then - when was the last time you have played with town Prophylaxis? Can't imagine any meta on me would very useful given that my last town game on MTGS was literally five years ago, if I remember correctly.
Last game I recall was... Winterfell? I tunnelled you like crazy and I think Seppel had to talk me down.
Bear in mind I'm not saying you're scum for seeming rusty. I just noticed your questions are not as good as they usually are.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Like when you compare Axel calling himself town in the first post and Cross doing it. The intent is very different I think. Cross meant it to be more subtle. Axel was very open with it. It's not the same.
The intent and tone of the posts are different, yes, but when I saw those two posts I immediately noticed that they were self-declarations of towniness. It's something I've done in the past, so my brain immediately slotted them in as "largely being the same".
----
I actually think that Crossbell is low-hanging fruit. I'm pretty sure the entirety of the playerbase besides me and Cantrip are either indifferent on them or want them dead.
I'll do my due diligence in defending them in a bit, but I would like to hear from them WRT if they are comfortable outing their identity first. I think that would potentially assuage people's fears of them.
Last game I recall was... Winterfell? I tunnelled you like crazy and I think Seppel had to talk me down.
Bear in mind I'm not saying you're scum for seeming rusty. I just noticed your questions are not as good as they usually are.
Winterfell was... seven years ago heh. I was 15 years old then. Time sure does fly.
The approach I'm taking to this game Day is "ask a bunch of questions, get as much information out of people as possible, and then do focused rereads once alignment flips happen" so that may be impacting your evaluation on me.
@Crossbell: Are you able to just, out who you are?
It feels pretty angle-y that I am 95-99% sure I know who you are, but other players in the game do not have a clue, despite you saying that you've played with everyone in this game before. I can respect if you want to keep it hidden, but it's making it tough for me to both engage with you and talk to other players about you given the identity bifurcation here.
Fine...
While Osie was taking a break to do hosting and focus on work, he (myself) felt like joining in for the potential last game on the site and a game run by Highroller in general.
I've also just come off of multiple wolf rands (Snow White, Darling, Ever-Changing Seasons) with /some/ town games interspersed in there, though they were not very long. That could be impacting my play this game as well.
This Day 1 feels a little weird to me because Crossbell and I have strong-ish townreads on each other, and we've also been the most active players in the game. Everyone else has signified strong displeasure on either my slot or Crossbell's slot. Which is making me wonder - am I the doofus here, or are the scum taking advantage of gamestate to discredit/smear/mislunch two high-WIM, solving villagers?
(This is amusing to me because I think it confirms that my playstyle reads as naturally wolfy to others)
@Crossbell: Are you able to just, out who you are?
It feels pretty angle-y that I am 95-99% sure I know who you are, but other players in the game do not have a clue, despite you saying that you've played with everyone in this game before. I can respect if you want to keep it hidden, but it's making it tough for me to both engage with you and talk to other players about you given the identity bifurcation here.
Fine...
While Osie was taking a break to do hosting and focus on work, he (myself) felt like joining in for the potential last game on the site and a game run by Highroller in general.
Appreciate it.
Apologies for not letting you have your fun, but I think that me playing with the knowledge that you were Osie and the rest of the game not feels kinda borderline.
This is my first time randing town on this site in literal forever, and I took a long break from mafia such that I forgot most people's meta.
Why do you ask?
When I'm reading your posts, I see a lot of myself in them. Old me who asked a lot of questions that perhaps I didn't think about in too much depth first. It's unlike you.
Like when you compare Axel calling himself town in the first post and Cross doing it. The intent is very different I think. Cross meant it to be more subtle. Axel was very open with it. It's not the same.
I feel like this statement usually comes from a town mindset for KJ.
Pretty sure Cross is at L-1, so we should be careful with our votes.
Quote from Killjoy »
When I'm reading your posts, I see a lot of myself in them. Old me who asked a lot of questions that perhaps I didn't think about in too much depth first. It's unlike you.
I'll shoot you a question then - when was the last time you have played with town Prophylaxis? Can't imagine any meta on me would very useful given that my last town game on MTGS was literally five years ago, if I remember correctly.
I'm reasonably confident that there are two scum in those 4 btw. Based on how worthless 99% of the reads on me have been, I think I've managed successfully to draw
both scum to voting my slot.
Pretty sure Cross is at L-1, so we should be careful with our votes.
Quote from Killjoy »
When I'm reading your posts, I see a lot of myself in them. Old me who asked a lot of questions that perhaps I didn't think about in too much depth first. It's unlike you.
I'll shoot you a question then - when was the last time you have played with town Prophylaxis? Can't imagine any meta on me would very useful given that my last town game on MTGS was literally five years ago, if I remember correctly.
I'm reasonably confident that there are two scum in those 4 btw. Based on how worthless 99% of the reads on me have been, I think I've managed successfully to draw
both scum to voting my slot.
Drop the faux anger and actually talk about the reads instead of strawmaning them.
I'm asking if killjoy has any recently completed town or scum games I can look through - because I am not sure why everyone is townreading him. You're misreading my post.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
As previously mentioned, day is currently set to end on Friday, 11 PM EST.
Given that it's Fourth of July weekend, in addition to people having various scheduling issues, I was thinking about extending day 72 hours to 11 PM, Monday, EST.
To express your opinions on this matter, remember to bold text. Also, to make it easier for me, probably best to quote this post as well.
I would like to know what you all think, whether the answer be agreement, disagreement, agreement to day extension but disagreement as to the length, or just general ambivalence.
Of course it's Osie, of course it is.
@Proph we have different definitions of LHF if u think Osie is that.
I would prefer not to be wrong on someone who is actually playing the game, but both Axel and DV have pointed out things not to like. And if this was town!Osie, I think he'd be more frustrated?
I mean, this is a mafia game, but the mafia are the ones who are supposed to be doing the lying.
I am in favor of a deadline extension
/phone post
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
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but whats important, is deciding if he is pushing it maliciously or not, and I don't see that
neither from how he outlined his thoughts, nor in regards to how I perceive his ability as a wolf to outline scum leans
yes I am low-key shading his wolf game here
anyways, off to bed
I am liking Cross on a macro level, but as I stated before I still have quells with his early game
and I don't really care about his thoughts on you, nor your thoughts on him
I was attempting to engage Proph on something that he might have a better idea about than I would, and assuage a tinfoil that Wisp was trying to LAMIST his way into a townread. I still have some tinfoils there heh.
Only a very good one for Cantrip though.
Proph knows who I am and DV could figure it out if he thought about it.
Nuance or just detail?
Expressing emotion or just expressing?
I'll give some thoughts on the rest later when I have time, but for games I played see below:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/793343-friends-and-enemies-mafia-game-over-friendship-is
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/791150-arkham-horror-mafia-a-peaceful-town-town-win
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/786378-haiku-mafia-it-is-currently-over-haikus-were-easy
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/783914-it-was-a-dark-and-stormy-night-game-over-mafia
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/782463-russian-roulette-game-over-unless-the-winning
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/762050-bare-bones-mafia-basic-89-game-over-town-and
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/719646-star-trek-myriad-universes-mafia-iv-game-over
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/677880-ace-attorney-mafia-game-over-the-bitter-taste-of
I feel like my question (in 265) was essentially what KJ asked in 267. Why did you give me this dismissive response while going into detail when responding to KJ?
Sure, but it'll have to wait until tonight. Because I'm out of time.
FWIW, I've recently made comments like this, and (for me) it's not "oh, the game is over; I hate losing!!!" going into the f3. It's that I feel a lot of pressure and responsibility to do a good job, and I seem to inevitably choke.
Note to self: had 278, 280, 281, 299 in the multi-quote to respond to when I ran out of time.
MY CURSE IS FIXED!
I'm rereading now, but I feel the need to ask this important game-altering question.
Wisp: any entrance based reads?
It might actually be.
(1) It's well and good to say "this game is smaller and has shorter deadlines than other games, therefore, you can't afford to play as laid back on D1 as you usually do." I can understand, and even agree with that. You understand, however, that this is something entirely different from saying "he's not playing like his "usual" meta (ignoring for the moment how true or not that might be). It's almost the opposite. So, which thing are you currently being suspicious of me for? Not acting like myself, or not kicking it into gear fast enough?
(2) You say here you didn't "join" Crossbell in their suspicion of me, but right after Crossbell's big "meta" post, what you said was:
What did you mean, "I see where Crossbell is coming from" if you didn't agree with it?
Plus, as a bonus, the rest of this post is actually okay too.
I think if the town ever gets to a final 3 (like say, there's 7 people alive with one scum, they mislunch twice and then it becomes f3), then every townie who was alive at the time deserves some of the blame for letting the game reach that state. If everyone is working hard and doing their job (aka, not getting complacent), then a larger number of games should be ending before then.
Yes, sometimes you do literally have to go through all the PoE, and sometimes the last scum is indeed playing quite well, but mafia is still a team game. The responsibility might end up going to one person in the end, but it was everyone else's efforts that made the game reach that state. /theory
----
I'm not suspicious of you at the moment. You are in my PoE for not doing a whole lot when other players have worked themselves into my town core, but I am waiting on you to read the game and produce content before I begin my interrogation of you.
(I put you in my gun-to-head hypothetical scumteam because I have a sneaking suspicion that the scum are having trouble integrating themselves into the game thread. It's a YOLO guess)
I see where Crossbell is coming from because I have made snap judgement reads/RVS/first post reads in the past, and I felt that Crossbell was doing something similar.
I'm down to do some real-time if anyone else is up for it.
And then there was Crossbell's big review post. TLDR: I do not like this post.
Here's the piece by piece:
Feels slightly weird to me, joke notwithstanding. When I do these, I will often list myself at the top, but I don't think I've ever done a joke analysis of myself.
And here I just disagree. The conclusion of Proph in post #30 and his vote for Wisp was on the basis that Wisp feels "incredibly clumsy" to him, and I don't see that. So when I see people agreeing with something I don't agree with, again the
I have a mild Town read on GF also, but I don't know why they even bring up the "second vote in RVS" thing only to dismiss it. This post reads more like a neutral read, with the calling the Wisp question "random," another Proph question "okay," and another post "unexplained," but ends with Town-lean based on liking the overall "flow/point" of another post (despite disagreeing with the wording) and then liking the "thought process" of a final post (even though it's wrong). All those qualifications really call this read into question for me.
This is another post where, like, everything they are saying about Wisp is bad. Everything seems to be reason for suspicion. But they end on "slightly above null" for no discernable reason at all. This is just not my town mind-set. If I'm town-leaning someone, I don't go on and on about the things I don't like about them. It's irrational.
Killjoy had exactly 1 post with any game content in it to this point. Now, I also kind of liked that 1 post, but for apparently different reasons. Killjoy was NOT, as far as I can tell, floating an "Axel/DoTA are potential scum-buddies" theory. He was specifically saying that the fact I left Timetwister (DoTA) off my list of Blue cards to vote probably means we WOULDN'T be scum-buddies together. So, I don't even know what Crossbell is talking about here.
Okay
Don't know why this is even a slight scumlean unless what they're really just saying is "DoTA hasn't posted enough for me and I suspect lurking scum." Without quite saying that. Because it would be silly to accuse someone of lurking less than 100 posts into the game.
DV mentioned already, but to characterize what DV did as "hard defending" Wisp is such a stretch that it really kind of boggles the mind. DV forgetting who he was voting for is possibly a legit concern, but that's about all I see there.
To quote Luke Skywalker: Amazing, every word of what you just said was wrong.
Unvote
Vote: Crossbell
This may be as good as it gets for D1 (caveat, I have 5 more pages to review, but this is pretty bad.)
It feels pretty angle-y that I am 95-99% sure I know who you are, but other players in the game do not have a clue, despite you saying that you've played with everyone in this game before. I can respect if you want to keep it hidden, but it's making it tough for me to both engage with you and talk to other players about you given the identity bifurcation here.
I haven't played with the person behind the Crossbell alt very much, but I don't think they will flip scum. I'll try to put into words why I think they are town later tonight.
your avatars all look the same to me
knowing who he is would probably help me, since I work quite decently with meta
DV/Cross probably not aligned I think. Cross could have just... had a weak read on Proph. Town does that. It's a thing.
But I don't think DV makes such a weak scumread on a buddy that makes him look so bad, especially not this early.
Who said I had?
I hadn't said anything about Grape at all prior to my posting of my semi sorting hat. I'm not exactly sure what to make of the question Grape is asking. Going to have to do some thinking on Grape tonight. Like his big post, don't like this question he made.
Dota seems like Low Hanging Fruit to me. Strongly oppose that elim right now.
This is my first time randing town on this site in literal forever, and I took a long break from mafia such that I forgot most people's meta.
Why do you ask?
Axel seems decently town to me at this point.
Really still eating away at the Crossbell response to me where I pointed out that the read was weak and so I suspected scum adhoc making up a reason to town read someone. Crossbell's response "I'm more tricky than that."
Like no you're not. You're either town with a weak read or scum with a weak read.
Basically I'm asking did you flip heads or tails. And Cross's response is "Heads, but I'm tricky". Great.
Also in response to this
Vote Crossbell
Axel had a decent entrance, and Proph definitely had one of the worst
Like when you compare Axel calling himself town in the first post and Cross doing it. The intent is very different I think. Cross meant it to be more subtle. Axel was very open with it. It's not the same.
Pretty sure Cross is at L-1, so we should be careful with our votes.
I'll shoot you a question then - when was the last time you have played with town Prophylaxis? Can't imagine any meta on me would very useful given that my last town game on MTGS was literally five years ago, if I remember correctly.
Bear in mind I'm not saying you're scum for seeming rusty. I just noticed your questions are not as good as they usually are.
----
I actually think that Crossbell is low-hanging fruit. I'm pretty sure the entirety of the playerbase besides me and Cantrip are either indifferent on them or want them dead.
I'll do my due diligence in defending them in a bit, but I would like to hear from them WRT if they are comfortable outing their identity first. I think that would potentially assuage people's fears of them.
Winterfell was... seven years ago heh. I was 15 years old then. Time sure does fly.
The approach I'm taking to this game Day is "ask a bunch of questions, get as much information out of people as possible, and then do focused rereads once alignment flips happen" so that may be impacting your evaluation on me.
Fine...
While Osie was taking a break to do hosting and focus on work, he (myself) felt like joining in for the potential last game on the site and a game run by Highroller in general.
This Day 1 feels a little weird to me because Crossbell and I have strong-ish townreads on each other, and we've also been the most active players in the game. Everyone else has signified strong displeasure on either my slot or Crossbell's slot. Which is making me wonder - am I the doofus here, or are the scum taking advantage of gamestate to discredit/smear/mislunch two high-WIM, solving villagers?
(This is amusing to me because I think it confirms that my playstyle reads as naturally wolfy to others)
Appreciate it.
Apologies for not letting you have your fun, but I think that me playing with the knowledge that you were Osie and the rest of the game not feels kinda borderline.
That seems kinda useless though since I'm not a wolf.
I feel like this statement usually comes from a town mindset for KJ.
I'm reasonably confident that there are two scum in those 4 btw. Based on how worthless 99% of the reads on me have been, I think I've managed successfully to draw
both scum to voting my slot.
I do agree that there is likely at least one scum voting you, but unsure about two.
---
I'm also not getting the memo about everyone townreading killjoy. Does he have recent scum/town games I can look back on?
@killjoy? I don't recall you randing scum recently.
Drop the faux anger and actually talk about the reads instead of strawmaning them.
Thx.
What even is this post?
Recognizes Osie is saying OMGUS, goes IDK man, but doesn't say anything more than that.
Then uses some large of law numbers fallacy to suggest KJ rolled scum.
I'm asking if killjoy has any recently completed town or scum games I can look through - because I am not sure why everyone is townreading him. You're misreading my post.
As previously mentioned, day is currently set to end on Friday, 11 PM EST.
Given that it's Fourth of July weekend, in addition to people having various scheduling issues, I was thinking about extending day 72 hours to 11 PM, Monday, EST.
To express your opinions on this matter, remember to bold text. Also, to make it easier for me, probably best to quote this post as well.
I would like to know what you all think, whether the answer be agreement, disagreement, agreement to day extension but disagreement as to the length, or just general ambivalence.
Crossbell - 4 (Grapefruit21, DOTArchon, Axelrod, D_V) - PLURALITY
DOTArchon - 2 (Prophylaxis, Crossbell)
Prophylaxis - 1 (Cantripmancer)
@Proph we have different definitions of LHF if u think Osie is that.
I would prefer not to be wrong on someone who is actually playing the game, but both Axel and DV have pointed out things not to like. And if this was town!Osie, I think he'd be more frustrated?
I mean, this is a mafia game, but the mafia are the ones who are supposed to be doing the lying.
I am in favor of a deadline extension
/phone post