hmm, @GJ, welcome my friend
you are L1, and everyone wants your neck
I am a bit indifferent? I still hate your slot, but I am more reserved than most
Well i have no computer ans 5 percent. So don't expect miracles from me tonight. This one page though from skimming makes me think at least proph isnt reading me as wolf.
hmm, @GJ, welcome my friend
you are L1, and everyone wants your neck
I am a bit indifferent? I still hate your slot, but I am more reserved than most
Well i have no computer ans 5 percent. So don't expect miracles from me tonight. This one page though from skimming makes me think at least proph isnt reading me as wolf.
no, Proph is your biggest defender, and I think I can either become one given how you approach the rest of this day phase or I will continue to be impartial on your slot
Dangit; I promised myself I wouldn't fall behind this time!
I've read up to current, have many responses I want to make, but they'll have to wait until morning. And I *will* post in the morning.
I know we're no longer to indicate deadline preference in-thread, but if the deadline is extended, a PSA: my weekend, especially being a holiday one, is going to be very busy. I *may* have opportunity for in-depth posting, but I may only be able to skim and post the most pertinent. My daytimes (I'm MST) will likely be spent nowhere near an internet signal. So...my apologies in advance.
A few quick points:
-- Dangit. I thought Cross was Bur or--with a hopeful heart--an outside possibility of Tom. Ah well.
-- With Osie behind the portrait, I'm still pretty much at a townlean, although not as strong. I thought Axel's points against Osie were pretty insightful, and even if I don't necessarily agree with all of them, Axel is certainly trending upward for me.
-- I'm also liking DV a bit more.
-- Still have Proph as most likely scum, but I *have* liked some of his responses. I'll go into more detail when I'm not exhausted.
-- Alas, poor OsieBell. Adieu.
-- Greetings G_J!
That just completely kneecaps everything I was doing. His total lack of engagement with me and hand-waving my issues was something he was going to have to address or get voted out. How is GJ supposed to address that?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Of course it's Osie, of course it is.
@Proph we have different definitions of LHF if u think Osie is that.
I would prefer not to be wrong on someone who is actually playing the game, but both Axel and DV have pointed out things not to like. And if this was town!Osie, I think he'd be more frustrated?
Not if the game is going exactly as planned.
and this? I was prepared to really get into the weeds on this remark. B/C on its face it seems like complete bull. How can I do that now?
/rant
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I reread Famous Historical Figures Mafia a month or so ago and that was such a fantastic game. Thank you for hosting it.
Flattery will get you everywhere. Even though I created the role, that's where I started to dislike including 3rd party roles just because. But I did enjoy the amount of flavor I put into that.
Through page 3. Kind of lolsy that I've been at L-2 since then.
GJ, the retired person who keeps getting dragged back in
Wisp, guy who feels genuine and solvy
Proph, don't get why he is getting any hate, I don't see it
Axelrod, I don't know, doesn't seem that town, but seems townier than anyone else.
KJ, still doesn't dazzle me
DV, probably straight null. Gun to my head, I move him to town, since he seems interactive but I really got nothing here.
Cantripmancer: That DV read looked real bad. I hesitate as I feel one of the few players left who has played longer than me really makes that move as a wolf, but eh.
DotaArchon, the guy who plays my favorite game. I just haven't liked his tone. I thought his post about me/Axel being unlikely V/V, but more likely W/V or W/W just reads bad.
I am missing someone based on the game name which feels awkward. I could go back to look, but nothing has actually stuck out to me about them to remember they are in the game so take that as you will.
Have to say that I like Axel's indignation here that his primary wolf suspect just got yoinked. Think it's potentially fakeable but not really the first thing a wolf would think of when the person they're pushing gets replaced.
I'll devote energy to this game tonight - gonna be gone for the entire 4th I believe. Got unexpectedly busy yesterday.
Of course it's Osie, of course it is.
@Proph we have different definitions of LHF if u think Osie is that.
I would prefer not to be wrong on someone who is actually playing the game, but both Axel and DV have pointed out things not to like. And if this was town!Osie, I think he'd be more frustrated?
Not if the game is going exactly as planned.
and this? I was prepared to really get into the weeds on this remark. B/C on its face it seems like complete bull. How can I do that now?
/rant
Yeah that post and this post made my head want to explode.
Recognizes Osie is saying OMGUS, goes IDK man, but doesn't say anything more than that.
Except it's not just OMGUS. I've been very conscious about my play this game and paid attention to how I'm drawing people onto my wagon. You handwaving it as OMGUS is a strawman to defend yourself.
I'm willing to wait to see what GJ has to say, but to really be honest I just don't have another direction to take right now.
Disagree. That quoted post with bolded emphasis feels like an aha moment, which is harder for scum to fake than town. Not impossible, but the conviction feels more likely town, too.
I actually reread the surrounding context and you're right. I can see how DoTA could come to the conclusion that Crossbell is scum for using Axel's meta as the basis for scumreading him, all the while Crossbell is dismissing Wisp's read on DV as "spewing wine into the thread". I'll read through more of DoTA's posts as I go on, but the bolded emphasis is a good catch and something I didn't fully comprehend as I was reading DoTA's post.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
It's not the content, it's the sharpness of the insight. Iirc, the feeling I often get from scum!KJ is sort of a meandering lost. He can't have sharp insights because he feels there's nothing to solve. He's honing in on something that he doesn't understand and applying focused scrutiny. I think that comes from town!KJ.
Okay. I don't think I've played with scum KJ in forever (I've wolfed against him a couple of times IIRC semi-recently) so I will continue to monitor how he is playing.
I like that you're willing to re-eval on these points.
Quote from Proph »
Quote from Cantripmancer »
I can see what you're saying a bit with 19 and 25, but I'm really not seeing the reactiveness of 8 or 29. I know you've recently re-evaluated Wisp townward, but given the conviction you were showing based on early game meta comparison, right now it just looks like you've decided that trying to get Wisp mis-eliminated isn't worth the effort and you're going to push elsewhere. (I saw your explanation, and I don't want to ask you to provide more detail because I generally agree with what you "found", but your change in position is a bit, as you say, jarring.)
The reason why I thought his post 8 was clumsy was because he didn't lead off with an RVS vote, and he did a LOT of this type of behavior when we wolfed together in Darling. (At first I thought this was indicative of wolf him, but thinking about it more critically I think it means he might be town, because I don't think he would do this type of outreach if he rolled scum again)
Fair.
Quote from Proph »
Post 29 still strikes me as a little weird. Not really sure what he is implying when he says "hmm, hard debate on which of you I would kill first". Does he mean in a hypothetical world where he randed scum, he would have trouble figuring out which one of me or DV to nightkill N1?
That's what I took it as, but maybe @Wisp could confirm?
Up until less than 12 hours ago, we were bifurcated on Wisp as well, and I think there's a good chance you're mafia, so are you really that surprised that our reads don't align? Looking forward to you sorting and responding to my questions.
I'm surprised because I think we have similar playstyles and ways of approaching the game. I'm also town, so I'm trying to figure out if you pushing me is you attempting to actively sort me or if you are trying to get me mislunched. (Gun to head, I think it's the former, but I know your scumgame is good - which is why I am putting you at arm's length)
Ok. I mean, even if you say we have similar playstyles (which I agree with), feelings about any given individual's posts are going to vary from player to player, so...yeah.
My scumread on DV boils down to a couple of things:
1) Out of all of the votes on the Crossbell wagon, his feels the most agenda-driven. With an exception, he's been pretty gung-ho about not liking Crossbell or I. I fear that he may be trying to chain mislunches (he's tunnelling Crossbell, then when he flips town he will shift to focus to me)
2) I feel like his posts have been kind of narrow? Like he doesn't show much insight into his thought process for his townreads, and he went from post 223 to 327 without really catching up.
3) PoE. Think if Crossbell is town, there's likely at least scum on his wagon. I like Grape atm, and DoTA may be town. We'll see on Axel after he completes his catchup.
I have to say that I do like this post from DV though. It's self meta, but it reads as somewhat genuine.
Quote from DV »
This is a severe misunderstanding of my scum rage game play. Typically as scum I argue about pendantic ***** to appear playing the game and then get annoyed by players ignoring my correct statements.
Its likely hard for players to seperate that from my town game play, because my town play focused on specific things but for me it was always with a purpose. Maybe not a purpose that other players understood, but a purpose none the less. Largely my town reads/gameplay in the last 5(? more maybe) years hyper evolved into me taking an active role to get players to respond to me to see these specific things/meta reads and that turned into me largely bullying people/becoming more toxic as I took the game too seriously.
My scum games I'd just get mad because people would say that something I did was a scum tell or something really dumb and then I'd just use that as a cover for my aimlessness which is in my opinion always been my biggest scum tell. Really though what I'm trying to get across is that it wasn't fake, it was always anger misplaced as it may have been.
This is feeling more like town!Proph.
I have no more responses, but I do have more thoughts, but I'm also out of time. So more when I can.
What did you mean, "I see where Crossbell is coming from" if you didn't agree with it?
Post 311
I don't get this critique of Proph. This is a really common thing to say. It's basically saying I don't agree with a statement, but can see why they think that way. This is a pretty common think in conversation even outside of mafia.
Just a little bit down, don't get your feels about Grape. He is more than capable of making a post like that as a wolf (Grape was the player I missed up above. Put him right below KJ).
Post 329
I can't obviously speak for Cross @DV, but it really feels like you took a meme very seriously.
Osie re-evaluating me looks better, I don't what the hell your re-evaluation was
Did you want me to talk about my thought process behind this? I alluded to my approach a little earlier but I can go more in-depth if you'd like.
Quote from Wisp »
my wolf game is abysmal, so like IDK why u keep talking about being snowed
Because like I said - I genuinely do not know what your alignment is this time. Has wolf me ever pushed town you?
Wut.
I don't really have much more to add to this. I do much better on reads in real time than reevaluating with no bodies. Mostly be on phone for the next day or so, and weekends are still turrible for me. Glgl, I don't count this as a mislynch to my sterling record if I go down.
GJ, will you around more Monday/Tuesday? Can probably do some real time with you then. (I will also try my best to defend you/prevent you from being lunched; hopefully my schedule is freer tonight)
Quote from Cantripmancer »
Why do you say this?
Wisp was pussyfooting around voting me/Osie for the entirety of the game, and I literally told him to vote me multiple times if he believed I was mafia. That's why I said that.
Quote from Gentleman Johnny »
Wut.
In my past games with Wisp, when he was town and I was a wolf, I generally locked him as town or cleared him quite quickly, because I had TMI knowledge that he was town. That's why I asked him that question. I genuinely don't know what Wisp's alignment is this time, which is why I pushed him for the first half of the game.
By the way, a general note to all players in this game.
If you don't understand what one of my posts means or want me to clear something up, PLEASE let me know.
I read posts, process them, and type responses to them extremely quickly, so my posts may have poor grammar or they might not make a whole lot of sense. I want to make sure that my posts are readable and understandable to everyone else.
GJ, will you around more Monday/Tuesday? Can probably do some real time with you then. (I will also try my best to defend you/prevent you from being lunched; hopefully my schedule is freer tonight)
Quote from Cantripmancer »
Why do you say this?
Wisp was pussyfooting around voting me/Osie for the entirety of the game, and I literally told him to vote me multiple times if he believed I was mafia. That's why I said that.
Quote from Gentleman Johnny »
Wut.
In my past games with Wisp, when he was town and I was a wolf, I generally locked him as town or cleared him quite quickly, because I had TMI knowledge that he was town. That's why I asked him that question. I genuinely don't know what Wisp's alignment is this time, which is why I pushed him for the first half of the game.
Yeah, a buddy should be fixinng my computer today or tomorrow. I got my part. I haven't played dota 2 in a month and I am jonesing.
@proph
I mean "if you are town" which I'm still having heavy doubts at this moment, the things you find to be my wolf meta aren't really meta. Some games I can find that vote, some games I can't, especially not early on. I want to be correct, I don't want to be fence-sitty, I don't want to move my vote around a lot, I don't want to be inconsistent, which several people have already called out this game. I work better off other people's reads, evaluating the possibility of them being correct or incorrect. I am giving u a higher benefit of the doubt, because I know your work schedule as changed drastically from the old days.
I am also again hesitating on Osie/GJ, while 4 players are so certain he is a wolf, and I have no idea what that means yet. While u think he is like obvious town, and Cantrip also has him leaning town. So I really don't know.
DotaArchon, the guy who plays my favorite game. I just haven't liked his tone. I thought his post about me/Axel being unlikely V/V, but more likely W/V or W/W just reads bad.
Favourite game? What about my tone seems off to you?
DotaArchon, the guy who plays my favorite game. I just haven't liked his tone. I thought his post about me/Axel being unlikely V/V, but more likely W/V or W/W just reads bad.
Favourite game? What about my tone seems off to you?
@Axel: Took the words right out of my mouth.
You seem to want a force a dichotomy there, and it felt like a particulary forced one as well. Yeah, you say we might be V/V but that's not where you seem to lean. If we assume I never subbed in, would you still have thought Axel could be w/w with me?
Quick post Cross being Osie weakens a bunch of my points against him. Definitely going to need to reevaluate and see how much of my case still makes sense with that meta.
Sorry I haven't been as present a lot. Work has been stressful.
Anyway, I think Axel might be town. Early game he got a fair amount of hate for his typical playstyle (in which he doesn't usually start Doing Things until not early game) and that makes me feel like he was a target for scum. I'm confident enough in this at least to put him in the Not Yeeting Today pile.
Proph as I said earlier reminds me of me when I'm trying to get info, and a rusty Proph who isn't used to needing to solve as town probably fits that criteria.
I don't really have a specific opinion on Cantrip as of now. He's one of the Tricksy Hobbits and uses a lot of words. I think I'd prefer overNight to try to figure him out.
I had no good opinion on Osiebell. Osie being Proph is not Osie enough for me to judge him outright. His posts were... fine I guess?
DotA had some decent posts but has not a lot of content, so he's not out of the PoE I suppose but he's not on my chopping block right now.
I need to reread Grape honestly because I just straight up don't remember things from him.
The two people I think currently are scum are DV and Wisp. DV has aggressively jumped on at least Proph for minutia and has also been hedgy in a bad way. Wisp I specifically think is scum for his progression on me. He keeps maintaining (353, 417, 432) that I've been really null. I feel like it's not just an opinion of his, he's trying to convince others of it, possibly to counteract the townleans people seem to have developed on me. He's not scumreading me as of now, so why is he pushing so hard that other's should not be townreading me? I think he knows I'm town and misyeetable so he's trying to preserve that.
Vote Wisp
I'm also fine with an extesion, espceially so GJ can catch up fully etc.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Wait where have I told people to not town read you? I have even stated that I would be against your lunch. Killjoy if you are going to play the game, then play the game. Don't write stupid posts, or I will turn into DV
Still on my phone for the moment. I really feel like writing a quite lengthy dissertation on how scummy what Osie (ostensibly) was doing was. But I’m not sure if it is worth the words.
My other option seems to be pivoting to examine Proph and whether his completely unjustified faith in Osie could possibly be coming from a genuine Town mindset.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@proph what day are you free? Since apparently I gotta solve this game on day 1, and you are problem. Maybe Osie was right and it was omgus response. Maybe that has skewed my read on you. But I haven't seen anything that screams town Proph. I might just go back read mostly seinen 2 and see if I can find what I saw there, that made me so confident.
@Killjoy where has DV been hedgy, and why does hedgy make him a wolf? I think his aggressive behavior is mostly nai, pushing tomwards somewhat townie. Like him he is aggressively pushing something maliciously, you can usually see it. But you have all but ignored everything people have been saying on Osie. If anything you took the easiest route by not even bothering, when he has been the top train, since the start of the game. While I have been getting flack for hedging on his alignment.
@proph what day are you free? Since apparently I gotta solve this game on day 1, and you are problem. Maybe Osie was right and it was omgus response. Maybe that has skewed my read on you. But I haven't seen anything that screams town Proph. I might just go back read mostly seinen 2 and see if I can find what I saw there, that made me so confident.
Should have some time later tonight and most likely Monday/Tuesday. My weekend is pretty booked.
If I'm a problem, then slot me in as town and then trust that I'll clear myself in a couple of days, or just keep engaging with me until you reach a conclusion as to what alignment I am by yourself. I'm going to keep playing at my own pace and solve things my own way. This gamestate has been pretty *weird* all-in-all but I'm pretty satisfied of what we've been able to do at a macro level (producing a *****ton of content that is valuable to look back on in reread).
@Proph
Fair
I'm at like 75/25, wolf/town in regards to GJ, like his posting was just a bandaid, he has not done anything of the things I am looking for yet
Sorry I haven't been as present a lot. Work has been stressful.
Anyway, I think Axel might be town. Early game he got a fair amount of hate for his typical playstyle (in which he doesn't usually start Doing Things until not early game) and that makes me feel like he was a target for scum. I'm confident enough in this at least to put him in the Not Yeeting Today pile.
Proph as I said earlier reminds me of me when I'm trying to get info, and a rusty Proph who isn't used to needing to solve as town probably fits that criteria.
I don't really have a specific opinion on Cantrip as of now. He's one of the Tricksy Hobbits and uses a lot of words. I think I'd prefer overNight to try to figure him out.
I had no good opinion on Osiebell. Osie being Proph is not Osie enough for me to judge him outright. His posts were... fine I guess?
DotA had some decent posts but has not a lot of content, so he's not out of the PoE I suppose but he's not on my chopping block right now.
I need to reread Grape honestly because I just straight up don't remember things from him.
The two people I think currently are scum are DV and Wisp. DV has aggressively jumped on at least Proph for minutia and has also been hedgy in a bad way. Wisp I specifically think is scum for his progression on me. He keeps maintaining (353, 417, 432) that I've been really null. I feel like it's not just an opinion of his, he's trying to convince others of it, possibly to counteract the townleans people seem to have developed on me. He's not scumreading me as of now, so why is he pushing so hard that other's should not be townreading me? I think he knows I'm town and misyeetable so he's trying to preserve that.
Vote Wisp
I'm also fine with an extesion, espceially so GJ can catch up fully etc.
Please quote any attack I've ever made on Proph. Thank you.
You're doing the same thing as Wisp - why are you waiting until you're dead to get people to vote for the person you're scumreading? People generally do not listen to dead/NK'd players - every townie this game is working off of the same information, besides the fact that each of them knows that they're town.
Unvote, vote Lastwhisper
His early posts feel incredibly clumsy to me.
Not a huge fan of this post.
I'm not truly advocating for anything. Me saying if I die "Whisp is scum" is more of a meta joke than anything else.
I see nothing out of the ordinary for whisp's posts.
Vote Proph
This post. I hated it even you made it. I hate it now.
And you just did the same thing to me right now. You jumped straight to hyper defense mode even I accused you of attacking proph. I keep feeling that you want to get the yeet without caring why people are doing things.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You're doing the same thing as Wisp - why are you waiting until you're dead to get people to vote for the person you're scumreading? People generally do not listen to dead/NK'd players - every townie this game is working off of the same information, besides the fact that each of them knows that they're town.
Unvote, vote Lastwhisper
His early posts feel incredibly clumsy to me.
Not a huge fan of this post.
I'm not truly advocating for anything. Me saying if I die "Whisp is scum" is more of a meta joke than anything else.
I see nothing out of the ordinary for whisp's posts.
Vote Proph
This post. I hated it even you made it. I hate it now.
And you just did the same thing to me right now. You jumped straight to hyper defense mode even I accused you of attacking proph. I keep feeling that you want to get the yeet without caring why people are doing things.
How is that jumping on Proph because of minutia?
That's a post from 6 days ago and you are just now voting me over that?
Also to call my posting defensive is such a blatent missuse of the term.
What am I supposed to do not respond to such attacks?
I could do as Axel prefers to do and answer much more passively, but I disagree with that being towny. Hell if there is one thing that has made me side eye Axel its that style of posting, because its very passive and him answering or defending himself is not advancing the game in terms of him scum hunting. Its just answering questions.
And to be clear too despite what Osie might have said, I never once took issue with him having me in the POE. I understood in my mind why I could be in his POE if he was town, and never once took issue with it or said I took issue with it. Here I do take issue with it because to call me hedgy, or to say that I "Jumped on Proph" which I dropped by my next post is sort of strange.
And despite what Proph has been saying about me "Setting him up as the next elimination" I have not pushed him at all. I haven't even mentioned him for the most part this game. Largely because I was trying to sort him out through the circlejerk he was having with Osie despite still never explaining how he was town reading Osie.
@Proph I still expect an explanation as to how you were town reading Osie, you've been promising it for like 3 days now.
You're doing the same thing as Wisp - why are you waiting until you're dead to get people to vote for the person you're scumreading? People generally do not listen to dead/NK'd players - every townie this game is working off of the same information, besides the fact that each of them knows that they're town.
Unvote, vote Lastwhisper
His early posts feel incredibly clumsy to me.
Not a huge fan of this post.
I'm not truly advocating for anything. Me saying if I die "Whisp is scum" is more of a meta joke than anything else.
I see nothing out of the ordinary for whisp's posts.
Vote Proph
This post. I hated it even you made it. I hate it now.
And you just did the same thing to me right now. You jumped straight to hyper defense mode even I accused you of attacking proph. I keep feeling that you want to get the yeet without caring why people are doing things.
you will not get any reassurance from me, his voting tells a completely different story.
why? I will argue that, it's easy to perceive you as a wolf given you do keep aggressively jumping on people while holding your vote on GJ, which adds more context to your aggressive posting, which is less NAI, then your overall attitude
Alright, let's see how much I can catch up on this game before I have to do errands later.
---
I like DoTA's 437. I asked him to zoom out and evaluate players that weren't the ones he was focusing on, and he did precisely that. Not only that, though - you can also see the gears in his brain turning when you read the bottom part of that post, where he goes (paraphrasing) -
"I feel like your posts are a private conversation with Osie/Wisp, so it's hard to read into them. Looking over your ISO though, I'm paranoid that you and Osie could be scum together but it's an easy trap to fall into"
"I'm beginning to have doubts about KJ"
I like how DoTA's second thought is put at the bottom of his post. It feels like he is trying to evaluate every player and is organizing people in his mind for people he is townreading and he is not. It makes sense that he would try to re-evaluate killjoy after townreading Grape, DV, Cantrip, and potentially me (as evidenced by his double post below). Feel like you can see the gears in his brain turning IMO.
--
Quote from Axelrod »
Replaced out? Really?
That just completely kneecaps everything I was doing. His total lack of engagement with me and hand-waving my issues was something he was going to have to address or get voted out. How is GJ supposed to address that?
Quote from Axelrod »
and this? I was prepared to really get into the weeds on this remark. B/C on its face it seems like complete bull. How can I do that now?
/rant
Mentioned this earlier, but I liked Axel's indignation/anger here. Think if he was a savvy scum player he could fake it, but it's not something that I think first springs to mind for scum to fake - while I think this type of emotion comes across much more naturally as town.
Quote from GJ »
Axelrod, I don't know, doesn't seem that town, but seems townier than anyone else.
What does this mean?
Quote from GJ »
DotaArchon, the guy who plays my favorite game. I just haven't liked his tone. I thought his post about me/Axel being unlikely V/V, but more likely W/V or W/W just reads bad.
Can you expand as to why you don't like his tone? Aside from his vote, I have liked his posts thus far.
Quote from Wisp »
I mean "if you are town" which I'm still having heavy doubts at this moment, the things you find to be my wolf meta aren't really meta. Some games I can find that vote, some games I can't, especially not early on. I want to be correct, I don't want to be fence-sitty, I don't want to move my vote around a lot, I don't want to be inconsistent, which several people have already called out this game. I work better off other people's reads, evaluating the possibility of them being correct or incorrect. I am giving u a higher benefit of the doubt, because I know your work schedule as changed drastically from the old days.[/qoute] Yes, this is why I re-evaluated on you. I looked at some of your other town games on MTGS and found that you did not vote early as often. Plus, I stepped through your posts coming from the mindset of town you, and your early-game erraticness makes more sense now.
My worry at the moment is that there are a lot of players in this game that have given me light townie signals, which either means that a wolf or both have sneaked somewhere in my townreads, or my PoE is decently accurate and I've accurately townread town players. Much more inclined to believe the first over the second given that I don't think my accuracy rate is the best on Day 1.
However, think I'm content to write down my reasoning for these reads right now and then revisit once we have flips. (This should be happening once I get some free time)
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[quote=Killjoy]Anyway, I think Axel might be town. Early game he got a fair amount of hate for his typical playstyle (in which he doesn't usually start Doing Things until not early game) and that makes me feel like he was a target for scum. I'm confident enough in this at least to put him in the Not Yeeting Today pile.
Given that you're currently scumreading Wisp and DV (both of whom which weren't voting or pressuring Axelrod to the best of my knowledge), who exactly was the scum targeting Axel? It feels weird to me that you say this then put Osie/GJslot in null, given that Osie was the primary person pushing Axel.
Quote from DV »
@Proph I still expect an explanation as to how you were town reading Osie, you've been promising it for like 3 days now.
Yes, sorry, been busy for the past two evenings. I have a long to-do list that I've been meaning to get to wrt this game and I'll get through it bit by bit.
Unvote
No longer as convinced as I was on DV scum.
Now that I've mostly caught up, let me work on this laundry list of things that need to get done.
So here's my explanation as to why I think Osie is town. Keep in mind that I'm like.. 70% confident on this - I've interacted with Osie a lot, but it's rare for us to be in any games together. As a result, I don't have a great framework for what his scumrange is. Hence why people (namely Wisp) have gotten the impression that I'm sort of wishy-washy on me defending him - I just don't want to be /wrong/. I like to think that one of my strengths is identifying and preventing the mislunch of low-hanging fruit players, but I'm just consistently terrified of being wrong and being a virtual asset to the scum team, hence the second-guessing. Here goes though:
First off, I had kind of a null-slightly negative impression of Osie's posts. He was playing intentionally curt, which is something I've seen from Osie in the past (he likes to give strong reads with little explanation of his mindset or how he got that way), which is why I asked him to clarify/expand on his reasoning in #71.
Then he posts his #98 read wall, which was just way too early for something like that. I skimmed through the wall without fully digesting it, and my first gut impression was also negative. But given that Osie copied my avatar across an old site and was trying to roleplay/emulate my playstyle, I kind of accepted it as null since I know I have a habit of jumping the gun too early. This is what I said at the time:
Quote from Prophylaxis »
I'll look at/respond to Cross's wall in the morning. Preliminary thoughts are that the wall feels like it's trying to roleplay/emulate me, but I also find objectively speaking that posting a huge read wall when most players (Cantrip, KJ, DoTA, Axel) have not really sat down and played the game yet is.. not the best look?
I'm all for more discussion, but the wallpost feels intentionally played up - which is easily explained by the fact that the account holder behind the Crossbell alt is deliberately trying to emulate my posting style. Blegh.
I watched Osie interact with Wisp here (on page 3) and I also felt that they were trying to lean into the roleplay harder, with stuff like the Minamimoto image, the "lols" and "lmaos" at end of sentences, and off-the-cuff responses without punctuation (#113). I prodded with them about their Wisp progression and their response was fine.
I then went back on page 4 and actually took time to read and comprehend their wall on post 98 instead of just skimming it, and I did not find many major structural problems with the post. Yes, overeager, yes, deliberately trying to emulate my style, but I didn't think it came from a malicious mindset. Again, you can see me comprehend the post here:
Quote from Prophylaxis »
I like how you charted your thought process behind your Wisp read; I have a different perspective on his first couple of posts but I'll get into that after I've finished catching up. I don't think Grape has done much of anything alignment indicative thus far - I'll try to sort him as the Day progresses.
I think DV is playing very intentionally curt, and I remember I could find him as town in past games by watching how he explains his thought process and mindset. So far, he's mostly tunneling me and you. I want him to hopefully disengage a bit and focus more on the other players OR talk to/engage with us since we both are pretty active posters at the moment.
IMO, you're jumping the gun with Axel, and I think his alignment should become clearer as Day 1 progresses. Not sure how this will manifest in this game, but the Axel I know isn't a huge Day 1 poster and generally locks things up more towards the mid/endgame. It's been a long while since he randed wolf, but I don't think his wolf game is of particular note? I'm pretty sure his last wolf game was Amistarian III, and his team kinda lurked until they lost. So unless he's wolfed offsite or something, or gotten better at wolfing since that game, I would wait and see WRT his alignment.
So I went into this wall expecting to critique a fair bit of Crossbell's process but I can sort of see where they're coming from. I'll take a look at their more recent big wallpost in a bit.
I keep interacting with Osie and I am using him sort of a sounding board to re-evaluate my own reads, like the one scumread I had on Wisp at the time:
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Crossbell had a good point where him getting frustrated with dealing with both of us might point to him being town, though - but I still having a lot of concerns/misgivings about Wisp that I will hopefully get the chance to air out... right now.
Quote from Crossbell »
With 2 miselims and 2 scum, this is effectively a micro, my home turf. Solving the micros quickly and off of hard and fast worldbuilding is usually more effective than hoping you're going to get a ton of information out of two and a half day phases maximum, IMO.
I also bought this from him as an explanation as to why he was trying to read so hard into scraps.
Now I post my townread on Osie here:
Quote from Prophylaxis »
My sole townread at this point is Crossbell because 1) I think they're thinking about the game in a fairly nuanced fashion, 2) I think the early wagon on them was pushed in bad faith, and 3) sort by postcount become werewolf expert.
He was playing in a pretty disorganized fashion, but I could see how he was trying to work, talk, and engage with other players. His scumread on Axelrod based on his awkward opener made sense (even if I disagreed about pressuring him at the time), and it parallels what I saw with regards to Wisp. He was talking to Wisp and amped up the roleplay to see how he'd react, and came out of it from a null read to a townread of Wisp. He was trying to sort out his DoTA read here before eventually deciding to vote him with me:
Quote from Crossbell »
I kinda think that DoTA actually believes what he's saying despite having the tonal dissonance of a chromatic scale of tritones.
He kind of had lower activity at this point and then he replaced out, so yeah.
tl;dr - I just don't see the maliciousness. Osie was super over the top and hyperactive, but I think he has constant foot-in-mouth syndrome like me, and that was even more amplified because he chose to intentionally emulate my posting style. I feel like if he randed scum this game, he would have been a lot more reserved and play more by-the-book rather than ruffle people's feathers early.
Well i have no computer ans 5 percent. So don't expect miracles from me tonight. This one page though from skimming makes me think at least proph isnt reading me as wolf.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I reread Famous Historical Figures Mafia a month or so ago and that was such a fantastic game. Thank you for hosting it.
I've read up to current, have many responses I want to make, but they'll have to wait until morning. And I *will* post in the morning.
I know we're no longer to indicate deadline preference in-thread, but if the deadline is extended, a PSA: my weekend, especially being a holiday one, is going to be very busy. I *may* have opportunity for in-depth posting, but I may only be able to skim and post the most pertinent. My daytimes (I'm MST) will likely be spent nowhere near an internet signal. So...my apologies in advance.
A few quick points:
-- Dangit. I thought Cross was Bur or--with a hopeful heart--an outside possibility of Tom. Ah well.
-- With Osie behind the portrait, I'm still pretty much at a townlean, although not as strong. I thought Axel's points against Osie were pretty insightful, and even if I don't necessarily agree with all of them, Axel is certainly trending upward for me.
-- I'm also liking DV a bit more.
-- Still have Proph as most likely scum, but I *have* liked some of his responses. I'll go into more detail when I'm not exhausted.
-- Alas, poor OsieBell. Adieu.
-- Greetings G_J!
That just completely kneecaps everything I was doing. His total lack of engagement with me and hand-waving my issues was something he was going to have to address or get voted out. How is GJ supposed to address that?
/rant
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Flattery will get you everywhere. Even though I created the role, that's where I started to dislike including 3rd party roles just because. But I did enjoy the amount of flavor I put into that.
Through page 3. Kind of lolsy that I've been at L-2 since then.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
GJ, the retired person who keeps getting dragged back in
Wisp, guy who feels genuine and solvy
Proph, don't get why he is getting any hate, I don't see it
Axelrod, I don't know, doesn't seem that town, but seems townier than anyone else.
KJ, still doesn't dazzle me
DV, probably straight null. Gun to my head, I move him to town, since he seems interactive but I really got nothing here.
Cantripmancer: That DV read looked real bad. I hesitate as I feel one of the few players left who has played longer than me really makes that move as a wolf, but eh.
DotaArchon, the guy who plays my favorite game. I just haven't liked his tone. I thought his post about me/Axel being unlikely V/V, but more likely W/V or W/W just reads bad.
I am missing someone based on the game name which feels awkward. I could go back to look, but nothing has actually stuck out to me about them to remember they are in the game so take that as you will.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I'll devote energy to this game tonight - gonna be gone for the entire 4th I believe. Got unexpectedly busy yesterday.
Yeah that post and this post made my head want to explode.
I'm willing to wait to see what GJ has to say, but to really be honest I just don't have another direction to take right now.
Fair.
That's what I took it as, but maybe @Wisp could confirm?
Ok. I mean, even if you say we have similar playstyles (which I agree with), feelings about any given individual's posts are going to vary from player to player, so...yeah.
Why do you say this?
This is feeling more like town!Proph.
I have no more responses, but I do have more thoughts, but I'm also out of time. So more when I can.
Post 311
I don't get this critique of Proph. This is a really common thing to say. It's basically saying I don't agree with a statement, but can see why they think that way. This is a pretty common think in conversation even outside of mafia.
Just a little bit down, don't get your feels about Grape. He is more than capable of making a post like that as a wolf (Grape was the player I missed up above. Put him right below KJ).
GF looking real Sus as I think his vote as an RVS one that didn't budge.
Wut.
I don't really have much more to add to this. I do much better on reads in real time than reevaluating with no bodies. Mostly be on phone for the next day or so, and weekends are still turrible for me. Glgl, I don't count this as a mislynch to my sterling record if I go down.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Wisp was pussyfooting around voting me/Osie for the entirety of the game, and I literally told him to vote me multiple times if he believed I was mafia. That's why I said that.
In my past games with Wisp, when he was town and I was a wolf, I generally locked him as town or cleared him quite quickly, because I had TMI knowledge that he was town. That's why I asked him that question. I genuinely don't know what Wisp's alignment is this time, which is why I pushed him for the first half of the game.
If you don't understand what one of my posts means or want me to clear something up, PLEASE let me know.
I read posts, process them, and type responses to them extremely quickly, so my posts may have poor grammar or they might not make a whole lot of sense. I want to make sure that my posts are readable and understandable to everyone else.
Yeah, a buddy should be fixinng my computer today or tomorrow. I got my part. I haven't played dota 2 in a month and I am jonesing.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I mean "if you are town" which I'm still having heavy doubts at this moment, the things you find to be my wolf meta aren't really meta. Some games I can find that vote, some games I can't, especially not early on. I want to be correct, I don't want to be fence-sitty, I don't want to move my vote around a lot, I don't want to be inconsistent, which several people have already called out this game. I work better off other people's reads, evaluating the possibility of them being correct or incorrect. I am giving u a higher benefit of the doubt, because I know your work schedule as changed drastically from the old days.
I am also again hesitating on Osie/GJ, while 4 players are so certain he is a wolf, and I have no idea what that means yet. While u think he is like obvious town, and Cantrip also has him leaning town. So I really don't know.
Hello GJ, long time.
Favourite game? What about my tone seems off to you?
@Axel: Took the words right out of my mouth.
Of course it's a hypothetical world, idk why I have to state that.
This is probably irrelevant? But idk how u thought that was Bur lmao
You seem to want a force a dichotomy there, and it felt like a particulary forced one as well. Yeah, you say we might be V/V but that's not where you seem to lean. If we assume I never subbed in, would you still have thought Axel could be w/w with me?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Unvote
Anyway, I think Axel might be town. Early game he got a fair amount of hate for his typical playstyle (in which he doesn't usually start Doing Things until not early game) and that makes me feel like he was a target for scum. I'm confident enough in this at least to put him in the Not Yeeting Today pile.
Proph as I said earlier reminds me of me when I'm trying to get info, and a rusty Proph who isn't used to needing to solve as town probably fits that criteria.
I don't really have a specific opinion on Cantrip as of now. He's one of the Tricksy Hobbits and uses a lot of words. I think I'd prefer overNight to try to figure him out.
I had no good opinion on Osiebell. Osie being Proph is not Osie enough for me to judge him outright. His posts were... fine I guess?
DotA had some decent posts but has not a lot of content, so he's not out of the PoE I suppose but he's not on my chopping block right now.
I need to reread Grape honestly because I just straight up don't remember things from him.
The two people I think currently are scum are DV and Wisp. DV has aggressively jumped on at least Proph for minutia and has also been hedgy in a bad way. Wisp I specifically think is scum for his progression on me. He keeps maintaining (353, 417, 432) that I've been really null. I feel like it's not just an opinion of his, he's trying to convince others of it, possibly to counteract the townleans people seem to have developed on me. He's not scumreading me as of now, so why is he pushing so hard that other's should not be townreading me? I think he knows I'm town and misyeetable so he's trying to preserve that.
Vote Wisp
I'm also fine with an extesion, espceially so GJ can catch up fully etc.
My other option seems to be pivoting to examine Proph and whether his completely unjustified faith in Osie could possibly be coming from a genuine Town mindset.
Honestly I get the feeling like you don't actually care if GJ dies, like you keep saying it, but I'm not feeling that you actually do
I have a lot of things I want to do WRT this game that I will get to when I actually have time to pore over the thread, rather than real-timing.
If I'm a problem, then slot me in as town and then trust that I'll clear myself in a couple of days, or just keep engaging with me until you reach a conclusion as to what alignment I am by yourself. I'm going to keep playing at my own pace and solve things my own way. This gamestate has been pretty *weird* all-in-all but I'm pretty satisfied of what we've been able to do at a macro level (producing a *****ton of content that is valuable to look back on in reread).
Fair
I'm at like 75/25, wolf/town in regards to GJ, like his posting was just a bandaid, he has not done anything of the things I am looking for yet
and Killjoy playing his own version of the game changes nothing
I will be around tomorrow
honestly, Killjoy seems to be at his towniest when it feels like he has 0 ideas of what is actually happening
Gentleman Johnny - 2 (Axelrod, D_V) - PLURALITY
Prophylaxis - 1 (Cantripmancer)
D_V - 1 (Prophylaxis)
LastWhisper - 1 (Killjoy)
Please quote any attack I've ever made on Proph. Thank you.
A) I'd love to see any evidence of me hedging but Wisp already asked about that.
B) IF KJ tries to weasel out and say he meant Osie, Axel and I were both attacking Osie for the same thing and I started doing it first.
And you just did the same thing to me right now. You jumped straight to hyper defense mode even I accused you of attacking proph. I keep feeling that you want to get the yeet without caring why people are doing things.
How is that jumping on Proph because of minutia?
That's a post from 6 days ago and you are just now voting me over that?
And in what way have I been hedgy?
What am I supposed to do not respond to such attacks?
I could do as Axel prefers to do and answer much more passively, but I disagree with that being towny. Hell if there is one thing that has made me side eye Axel its that style of posting, because its very passive and him answering or defending himself is not advancing the game in terms of him scum hunting. Its just answering questions.
And to be clear too despite what Osie might have said, I never once took issue with him having me in the POE. I understood in my mind why I could be in his POE if he was town, and never once took issue with it or said I took issue with it. Here I do take issue with it because to call me hedgy, or to say that I "Jumped on Proph" which I dropped by my next post is sort of strange.
And despite what Proph has been saying about me "Setting him up as the next elimination" I have not pushed him at all. I haven't even mentioned him for the most part this game. Largely because I was trying to sort him out through the circlejerk he was having with Osie despite still never explaining how he was town reading Osie.
@Proph I still expect an explanation as to how you were town reading Osie, you've been promising it for like 3 days now.
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I like DoTA's 437. I asked him to zoom out and evaluate players that weren't the ones he was focusing on, and he did precisely that. Not only that, though - you can also see the gears in his brain turning when you read the bottom part of that post, where he goes (paraphrasing) -
"I feel like your posts are a private conversation with Osie/Wisp, so it's hard to read into them. Looking over your ISO though, I'm paranoid that you and Osie could be scum together but it's an easy trap to fall into"
"I'm beginning to have doubts about KJ"
I like how DoTA's second thought is put at the bottom of his post. It feels like he is trying to evaluate every player and is organizing people in his mind for people he is townreading and he is not. It makes sense that he would try to re-evaluate killjoy after townreading Grape, DV, Cantrip, and potentially me (as evidenced by his double post below). Feel like you can see the gears in his brain turning IMO.
--
Mentioned this earlier, but I liked Axel's indignation/anger here. Think if he was a savvy scum player he could fake it, but it's not something that I think first springs to mind for scum to fake - while I think this type of emotion comes across much more naturally as town.
What does this mean?
Can you expand as to why you don't like his tone? Aside from his vote, I have liked his posts thus far.
Given that you're currently scumreading Wisp and DV (both of whom which weren't voting or pressuring Axelrod to the best of my knowledge), who exactly was the scum targeting Axel? It feels weird to me that you say this then put Osie/GJslot in null, given that Osie was the primary person pushing Axel.
Yes, sorry, been busy for the past two evenings. I have a long to-do list that I've been meaning to get to wrt this game and I'll get through it bit by bit.
Unvote
No longer as convinced as I was on DV scum.
Now that I've mostly caught up, let me work on this laundry list of things that need to get done.
First off, I had kind of a null-slightly negative impression of Osie's posts. He was playing intentionally curt, which is something I've seen from Osie in the past (he likes to give strong reads with little explanation of his mindset or how he got that way), which is why I asked him to clarify/expand on his reasoning in #71.
Then he posts his #98 read wall, which was just way too early for something like that. I skimmed through the wall without fully digesting it, and my first gut impression was also negative. But given that Osie copied my avatar across an old site and was trying to roleplay/emulate my playstyle, I kind of accepted it as null since I know I have a habit of jumping the gun too early. This is what I said at the time:
I watched Osie interact with Wisp here (on page 3) and I also felt that they were trying to lean into the roleplay harder, with stuff like the Minamimoto image, the "lols" and "lmaos" at end of sentences, and off-the-cuff responses without punctuation (#113). I prodded with them about their Wisp progression and their response was fine.
I then went back on page 4 and actually took time to read and comprehend their wall on post 98 instead of just skimming it, and I did not find many major structural problems with the post. Yes, overeager, yes, deliberately trying to emulate my style, but I didn't think it came from a malicious mindset. Again, you can see me comprehend the post here:
I keep interacting with Osie and I am using him sort of a sounding board to re-evaluate my own reads, like the one scumread I had on Wisp at the time:
I also bought this from him as an explanation as to why he was trying to read so hard into scraps.
Now I post my townread on Osie here:
He was playing in a pretty disorganized fashion, but I could see how he was trying to work, talk, and engage with other players. His scumread on Axelrod based on his awkward opener made sense (even if I disagreed about pressuring him at the time), and it parallels what I saw with regards to Wisp. He was talking to Wisp and amped up the roleplay to see how he'd react, and came out of it from a null read to a townread of Wisp. He was trying to sort out his DoTA read here before eventually deciding to vote him with me:
He kind of had lower activity at this point and then he replaced out, so yeah.
tl;dr - I just don't see the maliciousness. Osie was super over the top and hyperactive, but I think he has constant foot-in-mouth syndrome like me, and that was even more amplified because he chose to intentionally emulate my posting style. I feel like if he randed scum this game, he would have been a lot more reserved and play more by-the-book rather than ruffle people's feathers early.