Dota comes back to write that one post, after writing an unfinished wall post, saying he is going to continue catching up
and he doesn't even attempt to answer my questions, only killjoys
Can you repeat any questions I missed? I had a quick look back but I didn't see any direct questions apart from one which you answered yourself in your next post.
As for the reread I haven't forgotten (I need to carry on from page 6), things are just a bit rough here at the moment. Been struggling to concentrate these past few days (life issues).
I read DoTA's post 823 but the structure of the post is really confusing to me. I felt that it was a lot of IIoA (information instead of analysis), though, which doesn't reflect super well on DoTA. He's also not giving a whole lot of insight into the genuineness of his mindset with that post. Just "here are my notes, KJ looks more town, Cantrip and Wisp look more scummy". Like, there's no pizzazz or attempt to convince others that he is right at all.
There's nothing to convince anyone of yet, I'm not even halfway through the reread. It was 2am when I got to the end of page 5, so I added the links for the quotes and dropped the notes I'd taken into the thread.
I thought he meant to ask about Axel, because that was the only read I could think of that he might have thought of since you never switched your read on Osie's slot
That's what confused me as well. It seems he was asking about me moving from a town lean before the replacement to a scum read after, which makes no sense. And if KJ did mean Axel, the question still doesn't make sense.
I'd have to go find what I asked u back then
Why doesn't it make sense? Either way?
Scenario 1 (What was asked): KJ is asking how I went from a townlean on Cross/Osie to a scumread of GJ. I never had a townlean on Crossbell so where is he getting that from?
Scenario 2 (What you suspect he meant to ask): How do I get from a townlean on Axel to a scumread of GJ? Why would KJ ask this, and how would he confuse Cross/Osie for Axel?
Yo, everyone. We have two mafia. Who do you currently think they are? I would just like 2 names in your next post. Don’t care if you explain why right now. (I know some people have already done this, please just re-state for the record)
DoTA and Grape checked in but did not answer this. Killjoy has not checked in since I asked. Still want this.
Right now, Killjoy and Cantrip/Eco, but I'm still busy with the read through. Should have time tonight (few hours from now).
Three impossible teams, DV flipped town and I know my alignment. Definite scum in his early townreads...
@Dote what grabbed you about the Osie/Crossbell team building post? Feels weird to mention definite scum in his early town reads when talking about someone who flipped town.
When I was rereading I noticed the team building and made the note to keep track of his reads, since DV flipped town and I know I'm town, he was obviously fooled by someone into thinking they're town. Was a note to self to keep track of how his reads developed from that point.
This is becoming an issue though.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I can't believe you are pulling out dota before Proph even has flipped, it baffles me that you would rather believe your own narrative and drive the game around selfishness, even if the possibility of you being right exists.
I also think, however, that Eco has the strongest scumgame out of everyone in this game, and I still haven't seen a whole lot from him that I think would be unfakeable or hard to fake for him as scum.
This. But, apparently contrary to you, this makes me want him gone more.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I also think, however, that Eco has the strongest scumgame out of everyone in this game, and I still haven't seen a whole lot from him that I think would be unfakeable or hard to fake for him as scum.
This. But, apparently contrary to you, this makes me want him gone more.
Has anything about Eco's posting concerned you?
Generally, I'd much always vote out a lurker who hasn't been townie, rather than someone who is actively engaging with the thread and posting well.
Not really.
But Eco's capability as scum concerns me a great deal....
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I already know I'm just going to run out of time again. I don't get home until after 6. But I can't stay up late for this either, I gotta sleep.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I can't believe you are pulling out dota before Proph even has flipped, it baffles me that you would rather believe your own narrative and drive the game around selfishness, even if the possibility of you being right exists.
Because Proph is my strongest scum read. And if I'm right Dota isn't scum. So if we're not doing Proph I want to vote KJ. Because he and Proph have kind of been on similar pages here. At this point in a game you can't have your reads in a vacuum. You're asking me to evaluate Dota and KJ independent of my read on Proph. And I'm just not going to do that. I'll read their posts on their own merits but for overall reads you have to connect these things.
Man it doesn't feel like killjoy...
Idk why Grape is like this...
WHy doesn't it feel like KJ? I was town reading him earlier but his townie floatiness has diminished a bit and he's been more reactive lately. It has felt more and more like him to me.
@Proph I'll respond to the rest later but if you were confirmed town I'd have to completely reevaluate but my initial guess would be Dota/Eco.
@Grape
Probably still unlikely to vote Proph here, but let's say we can get people to vote Killjoy. How does your world view change if Killjoy is town?
Man it doesn't feel like killjoy...
Idk why Grape is like this...
WHy doesn't it feel like KJ? I was town reading him earlier but his townie floatiness has diminished a bit and he's been more reactive lately. It has felt more and more like him to me.
@Proph I'll respond to the rest later but if you were confirmed town I'd have to completely reevaluate but my initial guess would be Dota/Eco.
and I guess the towniness just comes from his floatiness,but given I can't really form an actual decent solf read on dota nor Eco, and I can'form ones on both proph and killjoy, you might just be correct. Has killjoy even voted yet?
i mean it doesn't matter either way, I guess it depends on Dota's flip, how serious I take Grape's read of you
Which I understand fully why it exists
The PoE doesn't really change either way
because you buss
so the PoE is always just Killjoy/Eco/You, regardless of his flip
Me voting Dota would mostly be strictly PoE, removing someone who is irrelevant to the game at this point, and dangerous and somewhat hard to work around. But outside his non-existent progression, he doesn't have anything that makes me believe is a wolf, like Killjoy does, or even you. The above even holds true for KJ, who hasn't made any progression, piss poor reads, and his evaluation of the game direction is just completely made up, unless I consider the possibility of inside info pushing him in that direction. He also has only voted once, which is a big no no in my book. The only reason, "evaluating the game thread incorrectly", would even be townie, is strictly because its in Killjoy's meta to just be completely in his own head.
Either way, my towncore includes Grape/Axel
If anyone knows how I do my towncores, I don't use the word lightly On another note, Axel's point towards Eco is dumb
and outside like super extreme situations I usually consider anyone voting inside that, to be close to game throwing
I'm choosing to trust in Axel's harder townread of KJ.
I won't really shed a tear if KJ gets lunched - his progression has been wonky and his focus in the thread has been narrow. But I also don't really see him working towards a grander agenda, as I said earlier. Some of his micro has been genuine, like when he re-evaluated you and when he compared me to himself. I'm choosing to trust in that over his objectively poor macro.
Meanwhile DoTA just has really struggled to get invested in this game and has done jack ***** Today. That's why I want to lunch him.
Eco - I guess one thing that might be missing from that ISO sans context was that our scumteam was actually pushing Wisp most of the time. I was pretty critical of Wisp starting Day 2, and Aelin in that game was Wisp's scumbuddy but she didn't realize that until Day 2. From there she tried turbobussing because of some mechanical information and it worked; we were able to skate to lylo based on that unprompted bus. You can look at Tarot Mafia on MU to see another example of his scum meta, or Modern Mafia I guess for meta from 2 years ago. My brain just went to that FoL game because Wisp and I /just/ wolfed together a couple of months ago on that site.
OK, that might explain why LW wasn't so aggressive in defense since the big posts I mentioned were directed at Aelin. And if bussing was the strategy I can see LW being less engaged/fiery than usual. I guess this is why multiple data points are important, but at least it doesn't look like he's being bussed in this game!
I will have a look through Tarot since Grape also asked.
But, are you? Or rather, you have presnted a few fronts (early NKA pairs, proposed VCA, verifying Axel's Cantrip read, the recent "game flow"). But you've not tried to unify any of these tools - I would expect you to be trying to build one coherent world view, not one disconnected world view per front.
Proph just keeps coming back to scum for me. There just is an undercurrent of agenda to a lot of what he's doing. The Osie clear and urging to reveal the identity. The utterly bizarre in retrospect scum read and reversal on DV. The super eager to kill me to being more or less fine with me on D2. The complete focus on Dota before the last couple of hours. Just feels like he's pushing the game where he wants it to be rather than following what he's reading.
uh, what? If you're going to say things are "agenday" you have to explain what the scum agenda is. Because I'm reading those events essentially completely the opposite to you because I can't come up with a reason for mafia-Proph to have done them. If Proph was pushing the game where he wanted there were paths of significantly lower resistance he could have taken.
This. But, apparently contrary to you, this makes me want him gone more.
At this stage I don't know what I could do that you would consider unfakeable. Very flattering of course, but it didn't help you read me correctly in Feelgood 80's Movies Mafia.
At the end of all this, I...actually mostly like Killjoy? I agree with some of his stuff, but even more than that, I like his thought processes, and I don't see anything malicious here. His whole Tone is also very natural and just appears unforced to me. It's not an enormous amount of content, but it's not a lurking scum amount of content.
maybe not a hard town read per se, but axel did express reservations on lunching killjoy and gave a good list of reasons why he might be town
This. But, apparently contrary to you, this makes me want him gone more.
At this stage I don't know what I could do that you would consider unfakeable. Very flattering of course, but it didn't help you read me correctly in Feelgood 80's Movies Mafia.
Right, but in 80’s mafia you were actively scummy, despite being town. Here you have not been actively scummy, and therefore are more likely scum (that’s how that works, right?). Also, I have no idea if that’s how it went down in 80’s and can’t look at it right now, so that’s how I’m choosing to remember it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Serious question: Why would I as scum shoot D_V, one of the few people who never wavered on a town read of me?
How about not asking this question and instead doing the thing you said you were going to have time to do yesterday and then didn’t do?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Still on my phone here and unable to review anything. I don’t see myself voting anyone but Eco/DoTA at this point.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Serious question: Why would I as scum shoot D_V, one of the few people who never wavered on a town read of me?
I don't know.
Scum make suboptimal/weird plays all the time.
If you're town here, who are the scum? I've been pushing you for nearly the entire Day phase, and Eco has since he replaced in. Who is pushing you in bad faith?
I've tried to get you to interact with the gamestate at large for nearly the entire Day phase, my dude.
I'll have trouble making EoD because I'm hanging out with a friend, so my plan for the next couple of hours is to do ISOs on DoTA and KJ to make sure I am living in the correct world.
Still on my phone here and unable to review anything. I don’t see myself voting anyone but Eco/DoTA at this point.
Are you able to talk about KJ's most recent posts and how that affects your read on him, or nah?
I really can’t. Aside from supposed to be working right now, I can’t review stuff on my phone.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
]Right, but in 80’s mafia you were actively scummy, despite being town. Here you have not been actively scummy, and therefore are more likely scum (that’s how that works, right?). Also, I have no idea if that’s how it went down in 80’s and can’t look at it right now, so that’s how I’m choosing to remember it.
I was so scummy that I caught two baddies and got killed N1!
Having a quick look at LW in Tarot mafia, and it's acutally somewhere between the other games I looked at. His average post length is a longer than the scum game, and there is a decent number of reads given out, quite a lot of engagement/asking questions/poking. More spiky in defense, but still no OMGUS votes - it's snarky not confrontational. There is a decent amount of proactive voting as well - but not hopping it around.
The differences between Tarot and the town game are not nearly as stark as the Throne of Lies game. Compared to this game LW is still very much doing more of the Town-meta things (like aggro voting, longer posts with more thoughts), but I am now less convinced that scum-LW is incapable of emulating his town game. I would actually be interested Proph (and GF) if you guys could review Tarot and compare it to LW's town games/this game and tell me what you think.
I also noticed LW only does "alignment games" as Town. So, I guess he's lock town here?
I also noticed LW only does "alignment games" as Town. So, I guess he's lock town here?
What does this mean?
I'll take a look at Tarot but not before the deadline. I still think he's town though - his frustration and bouncing around on you/Killjoy today is something I don't think happens if he's a wolf.
I also noticed LW only does "alignment games" as Town. So, I guess he's lock town here?
What does this mean?
I'll take a look at Tarot but not before the deadline. I still think he's town though - his frustration and bouncing around on you/Killjoy today is something I don't think happens if he's a wolf.
Sure, doesn't really need to be before the deadline, LW is not on the table toDay.
I mean the "game" he's doing at the moment where he wants lists of alignments. He did a similar thing in Ballade des Dames du Temps Jadis but not the two scum games, so I was (tongue in cheek) clearing him with the power of small sample size.
I think Axel not including Timetwister kinda reads to me as "less likely aligned" than "criminal mastermind obviously avoiding his buddy" especially since that would be optimal distancing time.
Shows how rusty I am, I hadn't even considered that it could be distancing. I don't think scumKJ brings this up so early in the game when it could have been used later on if I was facing being defenestrated.
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@Crossbell
Your only interactions with Axelrod before your reads wall were: A
Crossbell, on a scale of “Fish” to “Spaghetti” just how serious is this vote?
Bottom of my readlist.
Can you elaborate a bit more on how you have a solid scumread on Axel without having engaged with them once so far?
How do these two posts below affect your read on Axel?
Axelrod - Needed to explain their RVS vote. Feels generally a bit awkward; possibly their first scumgame in a while? The only talk in the game they really do after that point is still playing defense, it seems. Not a good start for one of the better town players on the site. Scumread.
Axel always talks about himself and always spends more time explaining himself. Its not a scum read for him to want to explain himself fully so that players know what he is thinking. This is a newb scum read at best that doesn't understand the complexities of the game.
@Crossbell
I don't know, this is exactly how I expect Axelrod to start off as town, but then again, I have never seen an Axel wolf game
He think that KJ is potentially town due to bringing up the distancing comment with regards to the game flavor and Axel's mangling of it. This is a weird read because I don't see how RVS is "optimal distancing time". His questioning of the Osieslot is good, though. It's a liiiitle weird that he links two posts that are about Axel rather than from him when he is asking Osie about his read of Axel, but I don't think it's alignment indicative.
Can you elaborate a bit more on how you have a solid scumread on Axel without having engaged with them once so far?
I've seen a lot of their games and talked with them some personally and am just feeling that they are awkward here, as I had explained. I feel like you aren't really taking my actual explanation into account in terms of my thoughts on Axelrod.
How do these two posts below affect your read on Axel?
I don't get a ton out of them. DV focused in on the very first sentence of my comment on Axelrod and clearly didn't think much about the rest. Lastwhisper is using a meta read, which is just spewing wine into the thread.
I did read your explanation, I'm just not buying it. You're not trying to figure out Axelrod through questions and discussion, you're using meta to justify your scumread. And then you dismiss Wisp's opinion on the basis that it's a meta read...? Unvote Vote: Crossbell
Here's the post where he votes the Osie slot, and the reasoning is fine. I can see how you could scumread Osie for having meta be a such a strong basis for his Axel read. Osie did go "Lastwhisper is using a meta read, which is just spewing wine into the thread." At first I thought the vote was opportunistic, but I can see how he could come to a scumread on Osie, since Osie was behaving pretty erratically at the time.
@Dota Welcome to the right side of history. Can you talk about the KJ distancing read though. I'm really confused what you think the significance of it is. KJ is more likely to be town because he pointed out an interaction could be distancing? Are you an MTG player? Because Axel is right that Time Walk and Ancestral really do massively overshadow Timetwister to a massive degree. So if anything I'd put KJ making a point of it more likely to KJ trying to generate an interaction than anything to do with Axel. Now I'm not going to scum read him over it because that would be ridiculous, but I think I'd put it as a tiny unaligned between KJ and Axel if KJ were to flip scum. Think it's entirely meaningless from Axel's side though. His flip would mean nothing towards KJs.
It was a viewpoint I hadn't considered, and one that didn't make sense to bring up as scum. I played MTG for a number of years and I agree, it is possible he just overlooked Timetwister. I just see a town mindset from KJ in considering all the possibilities.
Can you elaborate a bit more on how you have a solid scumread on Axel without having engaged with them once so far?
I've seen a lot of their games and talked with them some personally and am just feeling that they are awkward here, as I had explained. I feel like you aren't really taking my actual explanation into account in terms of my thoughts on Axelrod.
How do these two posts below affect your read on Axel?
I don't get a ton out of them. DV focused in on the very first sentence of my comment on Axelrod and clearly didn't think much about the rest. Lastwhisper is using a meta read, which is just spewing wine into the thread.
I did read your explanation, I'm just not buying it. You're not trying to figure out Axelrod through questions and discussion, you're using meta to justify your scumread. And then you dismiss Wisp's opinion on the basis that it's a meta read...? Unvote Vote: Crossbell
to each their own I guess? What is wrong with using meta to justify a scum read? I guess on a very simplistic level, you are being just as dismissive. Meh
come back and play plz
Nothing wrong with using meta as a means to determine a players alignment, but Crossbell uses a meta read of Axel and dismisses your meta read as spewing wine. You can't have it both ways, either you consider meta to be a valid method or you dismiss it completely. The two bolded sections above are at odds with one another. Crossbell did later refer to it as a tonal read but I don't see the difference, reading the players tone without even engaging with them once requires knowledge of how the player posts as both alignments across various games.
There is some engagement around page 4/5 between Axel and Crossbell but are they trying to figure each other out or just posting for the sake of having spoken to one another. I don't know if this makes them W/W or T/W but I have a gut feeling that it's not T/T.
Explanation of his Osie scumread, which also reads as completely fine to me. I don't know how to interpret the W/W, T/W, T/T thing. It seems like it's yet another thing that DoTA is using to scumread Osie.
@Dota: "There is some engagement around page 4/5 between Axel and Crossbell but are they trying to figure each other out or just posting for the sake of having spoken to one another. I don't know if this makes them W/W or T/W but I have a gut feeling that it's not T/T." If one of the possibilities is 'trying to figure each other out, wouldn't T/T be possible there? What specifically makes you lean that they are not [both] doing that which would specifically make it a not t/t interaction?
This is the full interaction between the two of them, apart from some early questions from Axel that Cross answered in one post, the rest is all speculation as to who Cross might be behind the alt and a some banter. Little to no attempt at a proper discussion regarding the state of the game.
Axelrod - Needed to explain their RVS vote. Feels generally a bit awkward; possibly their first scumgame in a while? The only talk in the game they really do after that point is still playing defense, it seems. Not a good start for one of the better town players on the site. Scumread.
I'm wondering what part of my RVS vote you thought that I thought I needed to explain? That I was going to vote for a Blue card? Why I was voting for a Blue card? Or how I chose between Timewalk and Ancestral?
And is the "defense" you are speaking of when I answered someone's not very serious question with a not very serious answer?
I mean, seems like you are reeeeeeally stretching to try and reach this point.
I was also going to say I have no idea who Crossbell is and was not going be spending any brain power at all trying to figure it out, when he said this:
Can you elaborate a bit more on how you have a solid scumread on Axel without having engaged with them once so far?
I've seen a lot of their games and talked with them some personally and am just feeling that they are awkward here, as I had explained. I feel like you aren't really taking my actual explanation into account in terms of my thoughts on Axelrod.
Which actually narrows it down to, um...one person?
Sooooo, 'sup?
Sorry I still haven't done the thing. I am terrible.
I'm wondering what part of my RVS vote you thought that I thought I needed to explain? That I was going to vote for a Blue card? Why I was voting for a Blue card? Or how I chose between Timewalk and Ancestral?
And is the "defense" you are speaking of when I answered someone's not very serious question with a not very serious answer?
I mean, seems like you are reeeeeeally stretching to try and reach this point.
The fact and manner in which you chose between Time Walk and Ancestral. But yes, I want to push you out of your comfort zone and make you get serious early on.
Quote from "Axelrod" »
Which actually narrows it down to, um...one person?
Sooooo, 'sup?
Sorry I still haven't done the thing. I am terrible.
I can truthfully say that I don't know what you're talking about.
I swear there was a game in the not-that-distant past where someone opened the game, in like their very first post with a way-too-in-depth analysis of every player in the game up to that point. And proceeded to get raked over the coals for it.
Does that sound familiar to anyone? I feel like this happened.
I swear there was a game in the not-that-distant past where someone opened the game, in like their very first post with a way-too-in-depth analysis of every player in the game up to that point. And proceeded to get raked over the coals for it.
Does that sound familiar to anyone? I feel like this happened.
That's definitely happened to me in the past, but I suspect it might not be the same person. I've done the way-too-in-depth thing for a while now, though.
It was on Mafia Universe. Osie. Who is/was who I thought Crossbell was.
I was going to say that would be somewhat town+ for Osie. But if Crossbell is saying that's not him, then I guess I don't think anything.
Osie got flak for that? I vaguely remember them getting most of the flak that game for putting their foot in their mouth, not for trying to draw blood out of a stone.
No, because while my explanation is a meta-read since it's easier to explain things that way, my actual read was off of tonal dissonance to what I feel is Axelrod's chakra.
YOU said you had talked with me personally. And Osie is (I think) literally the only person on this site I have ever actually spoken to.
So what you MEANT was like, in PMs, or on Discord, or something. Hmmmmm?
My identity aside, you now have two votes on you again. Hopefully that's enough to get you to say something about players/posts outside of Crossbell/Prophylaxis/Wisp?
YOU said you had talked with me personally. And Osie is (I think) literally the only person on this site I have ever actually spoken to.
So what you MEANT was like, in PMs, or on Discord, or something. Hmmmmm?
My identity aside, you now have two votes on you again. Hopefully that's enough to get you to say something about players/posts outside of Crossbell/Prophylaxis/Wisp?
Yes, hopefully.
Right now though I am going to sleep. :link::link:
YOU said you had talked with me personally. And Osie is (I think) literally the only person on this site I have ever actually spoken to.
So what you MEANT was like, in PMs, or on Discord, or something. Hmmmmm?
My identity aside, you now have two votes on you again. Hopefully that's enough to get you to say something about players/posts outside of Crossbell/Prophylaxis/Wisp?
Yes, hopefully.
Right now though I am going to sleep. :link::link:
So after I pointed out that Cross was scumreading Axel without having any interactions with each other, they've now got a series of posts that still don't go anywhere towards moving the game forward. And Cross has moved their vote to me.
EBWODP:
So while there is a chance of them being T/T, I am more inclined to believe they are T/W or W/W.
This is him trying to read into the banter between Osie and Axel. I don't really know how you come to the conclusion that this is W/W given that scum often don't really like interacting pointlessly in the game thread, but I can sort of follow DoTA's thought process here.
So after I pointed out that Cross was scumreading Axel without having any interactions with each other, they've now got a series of posts that still don't go anywhere towards moving the game forward. And Cross has moved their vote to me.
I have pointed out that part of my issue with Axel is that they haven't been doing enough to progress the game. But given that you two are likely teammates, I'm not surprised that you're trying to handwave my actual read on Axel.
If you feel Axel isn't doing much, then why didn't you poke him for reads, analysis, explanations, anything while the two of you had your back and forth?
@DoTArchon: I want you to zoom out a little. What are your thoughts on players in this game not named Killjoy, Crossbell, or Axelrod?
Also, can you link me your most completed town/scum games? I feel like we've played together in the past, but my memory is not great regarding games on this site because of the consecutive wolf rands I had from 2016 to.. 2020 lol.
I'll give some thoughts on the rest later when I have time, but for games I played see below:
I feel like my question (in 265) was essentially what KJ asked in 267. Why did you give me this dismissive response while going into detail when responding to KJ?
I answered you in 266, then when KJ asked in 267 I read it as looking for a more in-depth explanation. My response to you wasn't meant to come across as dismissive, my apologies if it did.
This is also wholly fine. Maybe this dismissive comment is a little unaligned for Cantrip/DoTA.
@DoTArchon: I want you to zoom out a little. What are your thoughts on players in this game not named Killjoy, Crossbell, or Axelrod?
I'm sitting with a lot of null/slight town reads outside of those three.
Grape has been a town read for me since early in the game, I tunneled townGrape hard in the last game I played before I left (Friends and Enemies) and I might be biased in favour of a townGrape here, but I don't get scum vibes from his posts. I might not agree 100% with his read of you but I can see how he got there.
I've been struggling with Wisp since the early game, a lot of their posts feel like I'm reading a private conversation between you, CrOsie and Wisp. Their posts engaging with others outside of that grouping have been ok but since most of their posts are within that discussion I'm having a hard time getting a bearing on them. I'm sure I remember townWisp being a bit more volatile than they've been here but it's been three years since I last played Mafia and people change so I can't trust that as a meta read. Wisp is just below null for me at this point.
D_V is another player I've been townreading since early on, I played a few games with D_V during my time here and this feels more like townD_V than scumD_V, although like I said it's been three years so I can't trust meta. Feels like antagonistic town, pushing people to engage and not letting them handwave his questions away (as seen in his interactions with both Wisp and Osie)
Cantrip hasn't had a lot of posts, but every post has content and every post looks to be progressing his reads and the game state. He's trying to figure things out and asking relevant questions toward that end.
As for you Proph, I have a similar difficulty with you as with Wisp, as most of your posts have either been talking with the two of them, or with others about the two of them. I can't understand your solid towncore read of you/Wisp/Osie, but that is mostly because my top scumread is in there.
I've liked your engagement with people outside of your towncore though, like this question to me. You're asking people to look beyond just one or two reads and to evaluate the game as a whole.
Looking over your ISO I'm having a paranoid moment thinking you and Osie could be scum together, deciding in scumchat to push for being top posters in the game by focusing on conversing with one another and Wisp,especially since Osie decided to emulate you. It seems like too easy a trap to fall into though, so I'm trying not to give too much thought to it.
I'm beginning to have doubts about my townread of KJ, I liked the early question he asked and the follow up on that, but he has more posts than I do and only 2 or 3 of those are content posts. The rest are just short answers to questions about old games or complaints about Curse (which we can all understand)
This is also all wholly fine. I can see the progression on KJ here now that he's read more of KJ's posts. The Grape read is pretty flat. "I don't get scum vibes from his posts" is kinda eh. Struggling to understand Wisp is also fine, and I can see how he would have trouble doing so. DV read is also fine. His read on me and Cantrip is fine and I liked a little where he became paranoid that me and Osie could be scum together.
Here he unvotes GJ as he replaces in and then re-votes him with this reasoning. This is the first time I think that I'm actively disliking one of DoTA's posts:
DotaArchon, the guy who plays my favorite game. I just haven't liked his tone. I thought his post about me/Axel being unlikely V/V, but more likely W/V or W/W just reads bad.
Favourite game? What about my tone seems off to you?
@Axel: Took the words right out of my mouth.
You seem to want a force a dichotomy there, and it felt like a particulary forced one as well. Yeah, you say we might be V/V but that's not where you seem to lean. If we assume I never subbed in, would you still have thought Axel could be w/w with me?
I wasn't trying to push a dichotomy at all. There are more town players than scum players so T/T is not something that can ever be ruled out entirely except in very specific circumstances. But I was more inclined to believe it was either T/W or W/W, based on my belief that yours is a scumslot. To answer your question, my read of Axel moved from null to townread when he made this post. So no, I moved on from the W/W possibility even before the replacement.
I'm still convinced you're the right vote for today, especially after you posted this:
Interesting that Axel is on your eliminate list, I've found him to be townier as he posts more.
Tempted to hammer, but I still owe you an answer from earlier and this day is not over yet.
The bolded is so bad, I can't believe anyone is even considering me.
Vote DotArchon
You list the order you want players eliminated if you're voted out, with Grape as your top read, in the same post accuse Axel of having an agenda, and then vote me seven posts later when I point out that I want you eliminated. With the amount of discussion your slot has generated your's would be the most informative flip for today, especially to me as you've been my top scum read for the majority of the day.
Vote: Gentleman Johnny
This reasoning feels overexplained, and I also do not like when he says that his flip would be the "most informative flip for the day". Scum love pushing information lunches so they can absolve themselves of responsibility when the person they tunnel flips town.
Worked through the first few pages, haven't had time to properly organise all my thoughts so I'm just posting the notes I made while reading.
The TLDR is: Last and Cantrip are at the bottom of my T/S list by the end of page 5, KJ looking better in retrospect of this.
Post 151 Cantripmancer -
Town read of Crossbell/Osie seems a bit light. Grape calls this out in 152.
Response in post 236
The meta read is actually playing a lot stronger here than I think I realized. Each subsequent post makes me feel like it's more likely who I think it is, and I'm freaking loving it. (Spoiler: I'm probably completely wrong, because I'm almost always wrong on these things, but something something blind squirrel...) I'm also happy with the volume of output. Again, not necessarily town on its own, but in combination with everything, feels indicative to me. The Axel read still doesn't meld with me (nor the DoTa one, tbf), but the meta dive at least lets me see where Cross is coming from.
Leaning heavily on a meta read of Cross even while uncertain on who the alt is. Slightly contradictory statement here.
-----------
Killjoy read also light. Calls KJ paranoid TownKJ for post 150 but there’s no paranoia there, just a question to DV
Hey DV, I'd like to know why you think Crossbell potentially has inside info for what is obviously a reaction to Proph's play? That post is obviously "Proph is town [based on something unsaid as of yet] but you jumped straight to inside info/discrediting. What gives there?
Proph asks about this in post 166.
Response in post 245:
It's not the content, it's the sharpness of the insight. Iirc, the feeling I often get from scum!KJ is sort of a meandering lost. He can't have sharp insights because he feels there's nothing to solve. He's honing in on something that he doesn't understand and applying focused scrutiny. I think that comes from town!KJ.
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Has a townread on me for trying to solve, especially for my insight into KJ, but doesn’t mention my Cross/Osie analysis/vote from post 139. “Insight into KJ” was just me pointing out that KJ saw something I didn’t in the early RVS posts (possible distancing) and wouldn’t mention it as scum. This is speculation on my part, townlean not solid townread. Would make more sense to have pointed out Cross vote imo.
Mentions my Cross post/vote in post 241, but hadn’t really posted anything in between 151 and 241. Still think it should have come up in his catch up post in 151 as it forms part of his townread of me.
Post 155 Crossbell/Osie -
Axel-Cantrip
Axel-DoTA X
Axel-DV X
Axel-KJ
Axel-Wisp
Cantrip-DoTA X
Cantrip-DV X
DoTA-DV X
DV-Grape X
Grape-KJ
KJ-Wisp
After removing townreads, ends up with:
Axel-DoTA
Axel-DV
DoTA-DV
Three impossible teams, DV flipped town and I know my alignment. Definite scum in his early townreads...
Post 156 Lastwhisper -
Calls Osie’s townlean on Proph a stretch. Last line stands out
Maybe if Proph finds a wolf lean that's not me, that I can evaluate, I might think about moving him up
Post 183 Lastwhisper -
Similar to post 156 above, asks Proph to talk to him when he has a scum read on someone other than him, throws out a townread on DV. Looking back, previous DV mentions from Wisp to this point:
Quote from Post 29 »
Quote from D_V »
If I die tonight snap vote wisp out of the game thanks.
That's all I got so far.
ya that's fair game too, lol
didn't realize you were in this game
hmm, hard debate on which of you I would kill first
Quote from Post 55 »
(answer to a question from DV)
Lastwhisper is an outdated name anyways. I am Wisp or Wiisp on almost every site nowadays
Quote from Post 72 »
DV
Axel
Grape
Everyone else
Proph
Cross
DV is top townread without any mention to date?
Quote from Post 75 »
DV - might still be a wolf, but I am mind-melding with his thought process, I think he is decent enough at pushing an agenda, but I don't think this is how he approaches it as a wolf. Overall I think he is veeeeery likely to be town
Might still be a wolf? Hasn’t said anything about a read on DV to this point. Claims to be mindmelding with DV but keeping options open?
This is the next mention of DV here in 183 “still probably not DV”
Looking for further info.
Post 191 DV -
Suspects Lastwhisper might be trying to pocket him
Post 230 Lastwhisper -
@Proph
I would probably see myself voting Dota, as it stands at the moment
not that I necessarily have a read on KJ or Grape, but I think its correct to vote in the lower posters, then trying to figure out if consistent posters are being malicious
I can pull out reasons to like, as well as hate you, but that's mostly tone, and I know how much u hate tonal reads
the same goes for Crossbell, but on a macro level, the reasons to town lean him, heavily outweigh the reasons to wolf read him
I can also pull out reasons to like DV/Axel
which leaves a PoE of Cantrip/KJ/Grape/Dota
I am hoping I can lower that PoE more so as day 1 goes on
also I agree that we shouldn't be putting people to L2
but at the same time, its been stated several times that Cross is at L2, so any new vote isn't really "blissful ignorance", at this point
well actually he should be L3 now, since one of the voters was DV
I am curious to see how Dota re-evaluates Crossbell
No solid reads on anyone, can go either way on most. “Can also pull out reasons to like DV/Axel” Strange way to talk about his top two townreads from 60 posts back with nothing indicating a change of heart in between.
Mentions a Cantrip/KJ/Grape/DoTA PoE.
Cross/Osie in post 98:
the other mafia team member I suspect to be one of KJ/Cantrip/Archon.
DV in post 194:
0 - 2 scum exist in Dota, KJ, Grape and Cantrip. Conclusion Dota, KJ, Grape and Cantrip are a better place to vote out right now. Not sure where to point though.
Keeping options open to see which way the wind blows with the now confirmed two townies?
Posts 231 and 235 Prophylaxis -
Meta checked and re-ISO’s Wisp, moves from scumread to townlean. Likes post 230 from Wisp but as above, 230 looks very non-committal to me.
Post 250 Crossbell -
Notes to refer back to Wisp’s 230 at a later point. (looking for follow up on this)
The unorganized notes dump post. Since DoTA composes his posts in Word before posting I don't think the structure of this post is very alignment indicative.
His read on KJ is evolving (from town, to scum, to town again) so that's a plus for him I guess?
I'm not really sure why DoTA is analyzing Osie's "teams" post when Osie flipped town. Oh, Grape noticed this as well so that's a plus for him.
It's clear that he was in the middle of a Wisp analysis but the notes got cut off.
He's stuck on his reread and stuck in RL.
Quote from DoTA »
Serious question: Why would I as scum shoot D_V, one of the few people who never wavered on a town read of me?
Nightkill wine post which is eh. Maybe like a little townie but not strong.
Conclusion: Basically the same as Axel's. His posts have been generally fine - not really that scummy besides the GJ vote which I thought was overexplained. He has an evolution of his KJ read, from town to scum to town (and I guess to scum again, now that he thinks the team is KJ/Eco?). He's obviously very busy this Day phase.
I'm coming out of this with a collective shrug. It's really hard to read people who just do not post.
Like if we lunch DoTA and he flips town then I'd feel bad because his posts for the most part have been fine, they're just not enough of them. His tone has been consistent and flat which makes it hard to divine his mindset. I was hoping to find some sort of smoking gun here but he really doesn't have any.
I guess the main thing I want to hear from DoTA is this:
This is his entire progression on Killjoy.
Quote from DoTArchon »
Shows how rusty I am, I hadn't even considered that it could be distancing. I don't think scumKJ brings this up so early in the game when it could have been used later on if I was facing being defenestrated.
Quote from DoTArchon »
It was a viewpoint I hadn't considered, and one that didn't make sense to bring up as scum. I played MTG for a number of years and I agree, it is possible he just overlooked Timetwister. I just see a town mindset from KJ in considering all the possibilities.
Quote from DoTArchon »
I'm beginning to have doubts about my townread of KJ, I liked the early question he asked and the follow up on that, but he has more posts than I do and only 2 or 3 of those are content posts. The rest are just short answers to questions about old games or complaints about Curse (which we can all understand)
Quote from DoTArchon »
The TLDR is: Last and Cantrip are at the bottom of my T/S list by the end of page 5, KJ looking better in retrospect of this.
Quote from DoTArchon »
Right now, Killjoy and Cantrip/Eco, but I'm still busy with the read through. Should have time tonight (few hours from now).
How the heck did he shift from his PoE going from "Last/Cantrip, KJ looking better" to "Killjoy and Cantrip/Eco"?
I mean it's +town for Proph to be bothering with this, but lurking scum don't usually have smoking guns. If they did then picking them out from lurking town wouldn't be so hard.
The fact that like, KJ and DoTA both have had unanswered questions directed at them is a little tough. Though I guess I shouldn't say DoTA because I haven't really started to interrogate him until now. That is my fault.
His wolf team is you/Killjoy, I know exactly where he is going with this.
Generally, I'd much always vote out a lurker who hasn't been townie, rather than someone who is actively engaging with the thread and posting well.
Idk why Grape is like this...
But Eco's capability as scum concerns me a great deal....
Because Proph is my strongest scum read. And if I'm right Dota isn't scum. So if we're not doing Proph I want to vote KJ. Because he and Proph have kind of been on similar pages here. At this point in a game you can't have your reads in a vacuum. You're asking me to evaluate Dota and KJ independent of my read on Proph. And I'm just not going to do that. I'll read their posts on their own merits but for overall reads you have to connect these things.
WHy doesn't it feel like KJ? I was town reading him earlier but his townie floatiness has diminished a bit and he's been more reactive lately. It has felt more and more like him to me.
@Proph I'll respond to the rest later but if you were confirmed town I'd have to completely reevaluate but my initial guess would be Dota/Eco.
Probably still unlikely to vote Proph here, but let's say we can get people to vote Killjoy. How does your world view change if Killjoy is town?
Going back to this
vote: Killjoy
Signing off for the night
Not gonna go for bat for KJ as I did with GJ, but I would prefer a DoTA lunch over KJ.
Which I understand fully why it exists
The PoE doesn't really change either way
because you buss
so the PoE is always just Killjoy/Eco/You, regardless of his flip
Me voting Dota would mostly be strictly PoE, removing someone who is irrelevant to the game at this point, and dangerous and somewhat hard to work around. But outside his non-existent progression, he doesn't have anything that makes me believe is a wolf, like Killjoy does, or even you. The above even holds true for KJ, who hasn't made any progression, piss poor reads, and his evaluation of the game direction is just completely made up, unless I consider the possibility of inside info pushing him in that direction. He also has only voted once, which is a big no no in my book. The only reason, "evaluating the game thread incorrectly", would even be townie, is strictly because its in Killjoy's meta to just be completely in his own head.
Either way, my towncore includes Grape/Axel
If anyone knows how I do my towncores, I don't use the word lightly
On another note, Axel's point towards Eco is dumband outside like super extreme situations I usually consider anyone voting inside that, to be close to game throwing
I won't really shed a tear if KJ gets lunched - his progression has been wonky and his focus in the thread has been narrow. But I also don't really see him working towards a grander agenda, as I said earlier. Some of his micro has been genuine, like when he re-evaluated you and when he compared me to himself. I'm choosing to trust in that over his objectively poor macro.
Meanwhile DoTA just has really struggled to get invested in this game and has done jack ***** Today. That's why I want to lunch him.
I feel very tunneled into a specific gamestate at the moment, and I need flips to tell me if I'm wrong or not.
OK, that might explain why LW wasn't so aggressive in defense since the big posts I mentioned were directed at Aelin. And if bussing was the strategy I can see LW being less engaged/fiery than usual. I guess this is why multiple data points are important, but at least it doesn't look like he's being bussed in this game!
I will have a look through Tarot since Grape also asked.
But, are you? Or rather, you have presnted a few fronts (early NKA pairs, proposed VCA, verifying Axel's Cantrip read, the recent "game flow"). But you've not tried to unify any of these tools - I would expect you to be trying to build one coherent world view, not one disconnected world view per front.
uh, what? If you're going to say things are "agenday" you have to explain what the scum agenda is. Because I'm reading those events essentially completely the opposite to you because I can't come up with a reason for mafia-Proph to have done them. If Proph was pushing the game where he wanted there were paths of significantly lower resistance he could have taken.
At this stage I don't know what I could do that you would consider unfakeable. Very flattering of course, but it didn't help you read me correctly in Feelgood 80's Movies Mafia.
DOTArchon - 2 (Ecophagy, Prophylaxis) - PLURALITY
Prophylaxis - 1 (Grapefruit21)
Killjoy - 1 (LastWhisper)
OK, I won't be here for that then since it will be 3am my time.
maybe not a hard town read per se, but axel did express reservations on lunching killjoy and gave a good list of reasons why he might be town
Right, but in 80’s mafia you were actively scummy, despite being town. Here you have not been actively scummy, and therefore are more likely scum (that’s how that works, right?). Also, I have no idea if that’s how it went down in 80’s and can’t look at it right now, so that’s how I’m choosing to remember it.
Scum make suboptimal/weird plays all the time.
If you're town here, who are the scum? I've been pushing you for nearly the entire Day phase, and Eco has since he replaced in. Who is pushing you in bad faith?
I've tried to get you to interact with the gamestate at large for nearly the entire Day phase, my dude.
I guess I'll do all the legwork myself then.
Look forward to my meager attempts at analysis over the next couple of hours.
If NK WIFOM is the only thing you have I suggest you just anti-spew now.
I was so scummy that I caught two baddies and got killed N1!
The differences between Tarot and the town game are not nearly as stark as the Throne of Lies game. Compared to this game LW is still very much doing more of the Town-meta things (like aggro voting, longer posts with more thoughts), but I am now less convinced that scum-LW is incapable of emulating his town game. I would actually be interested Proph (and GF) if you guys could review Tarot and compare it to LW's town games/this game and tell me what you think.
I also noticed LW only does "alignment games" as Town. So, I guess he's lock town here?
I'll take a look at Tarot but not before the deadline. I still think he's town though - his frustration and bouncing around on you/Killjoy today is something I don't think happens if he's a wolf.
Sure, doesn't really need to be before the deadline, LW is not on the table toDay.
I mean the "game" he's doing at the moment where he wants lists of alignments. He did a similar thing in Ballade des Dames du Temps Jadis but not the two scum games, so I was (tongue in cheek) clearing him with the power of small sample size.
First post is RVS.
Second post he asks Wisp why would scum me kill Wisp on N1. Wisp answers but he never follows up on this.
He think that KJ is potentially town due to bringing up the distancing comment with regards to the game flavor and Axel's mangling of it. This is a weird read because I don't see how RVS is "optimal distancing time". His questioning of the Osieslot is good, though. It's a liiiitle weird that he links two posts that are about Axel rather than from him when he is asking Osie about his read of Axel, but I don't think it's alignment indicative.
Here's the post where he votes the Osie slot, and the reasoning is fine. I can see how you could scumread Osie for having meta be a such a strong basis for his Axel read. Osie did go "Lastwhisper is using a meta read, which is just spewing wine into the thread." At first I thought the vote was opportunistic, but I can see how he could come to a scumread on Osie, since Osie was behaving pretty erratically at the time.
I believe that DoTA is now scumreading KJ? So I want to see some semblance of visible progression here.
Explanation of his Osie scumread, which also reads as completely fine to me. I don't know how to interpret the W/W, T/W, T/T thing. It seems like it's yet another thing that DoTA is using to scumread Osie.
This is him trying to read into the banter between Osie and Axel. I don't really know how you come to the conclusion that this is W/W given that scum often don't really like interacting pointlessly in the game thread, but I can sort of follow DoTA's thought process here.
I didn't really check DoTA's meta since it's from years ago and he has a flat tone as either alignment. His question to Osie was good.
This is also wholly fine. Maybe this dismissive comment is a little unaligned for Cantrip/DoTA.
This is also all wholly fine. I can see the progression on KJ here now that he's read more of KJ's posts. The Grape read is pretty flat. "I don't get scum vibes from his posts" is kinda eh. Struggling to understand Wisp is also fine, and I can see how he would have trouble doing so. DV read is also fine. His read on me and Cantrip is fine and I liked a little where he became paranoid that me and Osie could be scum together.
Here he unvotes GJ as he replaces in and then re-votes him with this reasoning. This is the first time I think that I'm actively disliking one of DoTA's posts:
This reasoning feels overexplained, and I also do not like when he says that his flip would be the "most informative flip for the day". Scum love pushing information lunches so they can absolve themselves of responsibility when the person they tunnel flips town.
The unorganized notes dump post. Since DoTA composes his posts in Word before posting I don't think the structure of this post is very alignment indicative.
His read on KJ is evolving (from town, to scum, to town again) so that's a plus for him I guess?
I'm not really sure why DoTA is analyzing Osie's "teams" post when Osie flipped town. Oh, Grape noticed this as well so that's a plus for him.
It's clear that he was in the middle of a Wisp analysis but the notes got cut off.
He's stuck on his reread and stuck in RL.
Nightkill wine post which is eh. Maybe like a little townie but not strong.
Conclusion: Basically the same as Axel's. His posts have been generally fine - not really that scummy besides the GJ vote which I thought was overexplained. He has an evolution of his KJ read, from town to scum to town (and I guess to scum again, now that he thinks the team is KJ/Eco?). He's obviously very busy this Day phase.
I'm coming out of this with a collective shrug. It's really hard to read people who just do not post.
This is his entire progression on Killjoy.
How the heck did he shift from his PoE going from "Last/Cantrip, KJ looking better" to "Killjoy and Cantrip/Eco"?
The fact that like, KJ and DoTA both have had unanswered questions directed at them is a little tough. Though I guess I shouldn't say DoTA because I haven't really started to interrogate him until now. That is my fault.