Why did you want to do that?
Are you townreading Axel?
Are you arguing on principle against a bad argument? (If so, what's the point? Can't scum-Axel be "caught for the wrong reasons"?)
I thought he was both new and town
What did he do that made you think he was Town?
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
TerRaine, you answer this question for me and I'll take one from you. Do you have anything resembling a solid opinion on ZDS? Since he's being a good lttle tryhard and has the most content at this point, aside from maybe Eco, I'm not gonna go and count post numbers.
TerRaine, you answer this question for me and I'll take one from you. Do you have anything resembling a solid opinion on ZDS? Since he's being a good lttle tryhard and has the most content at this point, aside from maybe Eco, I'm not gonna go and count post numbers.
my opinion of ZDS is I've been scum with him before and he is VERY good at appearing town...he's also just good and thorough at being town. I do not trust him but that's my hang up. Barring him doing something scummy AF or a confirm from a PR it's a slot I am not really looking to solve out D1.
My question is are you finding the content Eco posting to be substance or volume masquerading as substance?
Thank goodness like 1/3 of this thread is memes. All caught up.
Vote TerRaine.
The push on Ecophagy does not feel organic, it feels like someone looking for someone to attack and a bandwagon to hop on.
ZDS’ vote on Eco was bad. Of course it was. It was a presumptuous, baseless vote about how someone isn’t hunting enough done during RVS. They're always bad. Now Shoushiling Mafia demonstrated that this may or may not just be ZDS’s favorite thing, I don’t know. I’m calling it NAI based on my knowledge of him as a player.
What is really bad is that TerRaine gets right on the bandwagon. For no less than FOUR posts, TerRaine proceeds to jump down Ecophagy’s throat for basically nothing. My favorite gem was this one:
....I am wounded. And after I welcomed you to the party with a sexy saxophone solo.
I have to say if you think THAT was me jumping down a players throat..anyone who's played with me can tell ya we're in for a good time.
@KJ and Jack. Were you both in the Prison game with me? If not can someone give me a refresher on who was cause I'm lazy and don't feel like looking it up at the moment
....I am wounded. And after I welcomed you to the party with a sexy saxophone solo.
I have to say if you think THAT was me jumping down a players throat..anyone who's played with me can tell ya we're in for a good time.
@KJ and Jack. Were you both in the Prison game with me? If not can someone give me a refresher on who was cause I'm lazy and don't feel like looking it up at the moment
I was in prison game, I was the poor sap who was in a cell with ZDS and got suckered by him the entire game. Pretty sure KJ was in that game also but may of died early.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I was just doing my reread, not the most content for this part of the game, but still enough for me to have some soft town reads. The main ones being ZDS and Ter both in my view are trying to move the game foward and asking the right questions. I know this is very much in ZDS scum meta, but willing to back it until they is something that makes me doubt him. I mainly like Ter for their pushing on Eco and how she explains herself imo it feels like a real mindset rather then a scum trying to force something.
Lagoon is in my town pile also not sure how true his cop claim is, but the general play is solid enough especially compared to others, I liked his posts about grape's view on KJ seeming a bit forced and not real especially since it bothered me also in my reread.
Eco is also in my town pile also I feel they handled the questions well, and they are showing their thoughts clearly and asking the right questions, it is of course possible for scum to do all of this, but they feel natural to me. semi interested why they voted me and asked Ter about me also though.
Not a big fan of Highroller recent post and vote, mainly because it is the reverse of my own view on Terr, and it feels like a forced read I can't believe he thinks Terr questions on Eco are too much. This is a game of mafia we don't get anywhere unless we question others and try to figure out if their thoughts and play are consistent. Scum reading someone for moving game forward in a normal manner makes no sense to me.
Igno is a big red flag to me atm, he starts off with this weird push on Axel which is beyond weak, and shocked people are considering this real enough to vote or scum read him on. After getting some early heat off that he has mainly being in answering questions mode. I also don't like when people give own self meta because it is easy to lie about that stuff to your own advantage. I want to see them put some of what they say into practice to see how good they are rather then answering questions which is a easy way to hide.
Need more from Grape, but his last post also felt a bit forced imo, but from memory every game so far here I have had issues with Grape's style something about it just comes off scummy to me. His view on Axel and KJ just does not feel like something real to me and something he espically would believe at this stage.
I know Sloth fluffs a bit, but he is really lacking impact. My memory could be wrong, but I remember he had more impact in my other games with him and he was a easy town read for me. This game he lacks impact and comes off a bit nervous and unnatural could be insane here though you all know him better.
I have no issue with the Rhand wagon as well, we need to start making movements and his last post of having no thoughts, just seems weird to me because they is content to discuss and make pushs on.
I need a lot more from Axel because in this game he is more a topic of discussion then an actual player adding to the game.
Oh yea that's right. What vibes are you getting from ZDS this time around having been more exposed to scum ZDS as town that game?
This feels more like the town ZDS that I played with in games after, far too early to tell though and my sample size is too small. I'm not going to worry about him too much today, if he is still alive by day 3 I deep dive him.
Not a big fan of Highroller recent post and vote, mainly because it is the reverse of my own view on Terr, and it feels like a forced read I can't believe he thinks Terr questions on Eco are too much.
Terr went after Ecophagy five times in less than two hours/16 posts. You regard that as a normal amount?
Not a big fan of Highroller recent post and vote, mainly because it is the reverse of my own view on Terr, and it feels like a forced read I can't believe he thinks Terr questions on Eco are too much.
Terr went after Ecophagy five times in less than two hours/16 posts. You regard that as a normal amount?
Is Terrain known as a busser? Because if so, then a Terrain/Eco w/w world's chances are higher.
@Jackrito: Was your first vote on goooLagoon a joke vote, or did you see something worth investigating? Why are you voting HR over ignoramus when you read on the latter is stronger?
Apparently it’s necessary, so here’s my view on the game in more words. I’ll put this part in a spoiler because it’s just a bunch of nothingness and I don’t want to clog up the thread with a pointless wall.
Page 1: A bunch of gif’s and Grape accusing Axel for no reason.
Page 2: More gif’s among which the one where Grape “killed” KJ with an Indiana Jones gif. Which was clearly a joke because no mod ever will give you a role that says “Quote someone’s post and add this gif and that person will die”. So yeh, more nothingness on this page.
I guess Terraine looks ok with trying to get things started somewhat.
I have no idea how ZDS comes out of this with townreads / mindmelds with KJ and Grape. (he says it’s for their takes on Axel and each other later. Ok I guess, I don’t see it but :shrug:).
Page 3: Ignoramus’ entrance is totally NAI, as is the questioning of his entrance by Ter / Eco and the suspicion by Axel. I get that it’s a bad Axel vote, so I understand the talk about it, but it’s not scummy bad. Just bad. Which also explains ZDS coming to a townread there. It’s all fine.
Then there’s the Eco is coaching thing which is really too little to get a read out of. I have to squint to detect the coaching to start with and helping a new player can come from helpful town and pocketing mafia both.
I understand Terraine’s push on Eco, but I don’t agree that making assumptions is scummy. Town does that too. Making that whole thing NAI.
Page 4: Grape’s town read on KJ is well explained: he knows it’s a flimsy one because the dayvig thing was clearly not a dayvig. Vaimes’ reaction to that is also understandable.
Rest of the page is just random talk that leads nowhere.
Page 5: I can see Igno go for that Axel read as both alignments. ZDS is paying attention but his big post is NAI. The whole conversation about Eco / Ignoramus feels totally useless. As do the questions KJ and Eco ask him (maybe not useless for them to get to know Igno a bit, but they won’t advance the game / reveal alignment info).
And then we arrive where I was with my “this whole game is NAI and I find nothing to talk about” issue.
@Rhand You know if you can't see anything to have opinions on you need to do something like ask questions or vote. Why are you pretending that you don't know how to generate Day 1 reads?
What makes you think I’m pretending anything? I will get Day 1 reads. I just need something to trigger me. So far there’s just nothing.
Highroller seems to go a bit too hard at Terraine. But it’s Highroller, that’s NAI for him.
Is Jackrito scumreading half the game?
Condensed, it seems like he’s saying:
(lean) Town: ZDS, Ter, Lagoon, Eco
(lean) Scum: HR, Igno, Grape, Sloth, Rhand, Axel
That’s way too many scumreads (and reads in general for the content that we have).
@Jackrito: do you approach the game with a guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty mindset?
What makes you think I’m pretending anything? I will get Day 1 reads. I just need something to trigger me. So far there’s just nothing.
It's more than you know that sitting around going "man nothing is happening" is a bad way to make things happen. So I was wondering why you aren't asking questions or anything to generate something you can base a read off. I don't think it's scummy, just weird.
What makes you think I’m pretending anything? I will get Day 1 reads. I just need something to trigger me. So far there’s just nothing.
It's more than you know that sitting around going "man nothing is happening" is a bad way to make things happen. So I was wondering why you aren't asking questions or anything to generate something you can base a read off. I don't think it's scummy, just weird.
Yeh and it's frustrating me to no end. It's never happened to me before that I feel utterly useless on page 6 of a game lol.
I do realise now that my game start is reactive and not proactive. I don't have a bunch of standardised questions that can kick off a game.
I think if Eco's scum Axel is marginally +town. Shielding him for basically no reason makes them look related (in my biased Eco-is- view), but Axel is a big boy who can defend himself on his own against an ignoramus.
Jack disappearing for ~2 days and miraculously reappearing as soon as Ter asked him a question made me jump, but the analysis dump afterwards was decent and somewhat justifies the absence. It looks like he put thought into these reads and isn't just bull*****ting, like he is capable of doing.
Rhand having a hard time forming opinion is a good thing (to a minor extent), since scum-him could easily throw a couple logical or consensual town reads here or there to pretend he's doing something and hide among the crowd. I think he is legitimately struggling.
Highroller going after someone who made a bad early-Day 1 push is... typical Highroller. He's allergic to bad attacks even when it's early Day 1 and everything is flimsy .
ZDS: it would be an instrumental part of the roleplay that is scum pretending to be town though. If eco had never met ignoramus before then it would be weird if suddenly he knew stuff about him. Eco would know that. It doesn't matter if it has an obvious benefit, it costs him nothing.
Could be. It's a Day 1 read anyway, I'm not married to it — but I also think it's stronger than "it could be a scum ploy", which is never a good argument. Any reason you are concerned about this issue?
Why did you want to do that?
Are you townreading Axel?
Are you arguing on principle against a bad argument? (If so, what's the point? Can't scum-Axel be "caught for the wrong reasons"?)
I thought he was both new and town, so getting him to understand why his read was bad might help him look at something else and make a better read. Plus if he was interested in discussing it that would have been towner. I suppose it was a little on principle as well because I'd rather execute people for good reasons because that has a better hit rate.
I am not town reading Axel. He hasn't done anything so far that I'd consider particularly alignment indicative.
I doubt you would have been so quick to conclude they were newb town if you were not presuming that was the case. I suppose this kind of bias is NAI, like Sloth said. Nevertheless it bugs me how much it looks like you were going for the easy pocket.
Someone said you are rusty. Are you rusty?
You haven't argued "on principle" against any other vote (or I missed it), are you fine with them?
What is really bad is that TerRaine gets right on the bandwagon. For no less than FOUR posts, TerRaine proceeds to jump down Ecophagy’s throat for basically nothing.
@Ter: You are obviously giving Eco the stink eye, any reason you are not *actually* going after him?
I am not sure the sequence of events you are describing here follows, but I’m on a phone again and can’t go back through it again right now.
I will also say for the record that I didn’t/don’t believe zoo’s Cop claim either. I don’t see why anyone who doesn’t have a D1 claiming fetish (Highroller) would ever straight up believe it. I do think it’s Town+ for goo though. Mainly because I think it pretty unlikely a mafia starts his game off with a gambit like that.
Kind of like Jack’s last big post too.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Oh right, and the thing was, I wasn’t going to say anything about not-believing goo’s claim because I still thought it was Town+, so why question him. Which was obviously not Eco’s take.
Not that he can’t have a different take, but I was noting it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
You guys both like Jackrito's post? It feels superficial and consensusy to me. Town reading TeRaine and ZDS for "moving the game forward" is weak and vague, town reading Goo is basically free, town reading Eco-who-voted-Jack is classic appeasement. And his scum reads of ignoramus and Highroller (and liking the Rhand wagon) are all the lowest hanging fruit. I know reads have to start somewhere but I'm not seeing valuable, town-indicating analysis.
Quote from ZDS »
Rhand having a hard time forming opinion is a good thing (to a minor extent), since scum-him could easily throw a couple logical or consensual town reads here or there to pretend he's doing something and hide among the crowd. I think he is legitimately struggling.
This was my thought as well, although Rhand is condfident enough as mafia to not care about any flak for it. So it's lightly +town but very WIFOMy.
Quote from ZDS »
I doubt you would have been so quick to conclude they were newb town if you were not presuming that was the case. I suppose this kind of bias is NAI, like Sloth said. Nevertheless it bugs me how much it looks like you were going for the easy pocket.
It's somewhat sad that trying to be nice to help a new player is immediately suspected as pocketing, but I suppose that's the game.
Quote from ZDS »
Someone said you are rusty. Are you rusty?
I probably am. My last game was about 2 years ago, and my last town game was in 2018 and that was a Micro.
Quote from ZDS »
You haven't argued "on principle" against any other vote (or I missed it), are you fine with them?
I'm not going to argue againsst every bad vote on principle because that sounds like mafia purgatory. I get that you're looking for an inconsistent mindset, but I was just trying to help the new guy out.
Not a big fan of Highroller recent post and vote, mainly because it is the reverse of my own view on Terr, and it feels like a forced read I can't believe he thinks Terr questions on Eco are too much.
Terr went after Ecophagy five times in less than two hours/16 posts. You regard that as a normal amount?
That is called applying pressure and a ongoing push that is not unheard of in these games, and moves them forward. It lets us see the mindset of both more clearly, how else do you expect us to get anywhere. Going after someone 5 times in 2 hours as you call it I personally don't see as high either.
@Jackrito: Was your first vote on goooLagoon a joke vote, or did you see something worth investigating? Why are you voting HR over ignoramus when you read on the latter is stronger?
It was joke/RVS Lagoon had not done anything to bother me, we also have some past history so all in good fun.
I went for Highroller over Ignoramus, because Highroller post that bothered me was recent and stood out to me and is the most fake thing this game imo. Ignoramus on the other hand has had a fair bit of pressure already and is in answering questions mode already. So I wanted to give them some breathing room to play their natural game, and not just tunnel a new person like I did in my last game.
Apparently it’s necessary, so here’s my view on the game in more words. I’ll put this part in a spoiler because it’s just a bunch of nothingness and I don’t want to clog up the thread with a pointless wall.
Page 1: A bunch of gif’s and Grape accusing Axel for no reason.
Page 2: More gif’s among which the one where Grape “killed” KJ with an Indiana Jones gif. Which was clearly a joke because no mod ever will give you a role that says “Quote someone’s post and add this gif and that person will die”. So yeh, more nothingness on this page.
I guess Terraine looks ok with trying to get things started somewhat.
I have no idea how ZDS comes out of this with townreads / mindmelds with KJ and Grape. (he says it’s for their takes on Axel and each other later. Ok I guess, I don’t see it but :shrug:).
Page 3: Ignoramus’ entrance is totally NAI, as is the questioning of his entrance by Ter / Eco and the suspicion by Axel. I get that it’s a bad Axel vote, so I understand the talk about it, but it’s not scummy bad. Just bad. Which also explains ZDS coming to a townread there. It’s all fine.
Then there’s the Eco is coaching thing which is really too little to get a read out of. I have to squint to detect the coaching to start with and helping a new player can come from helpful town and pocketing mafia both.
I understand Terraine’s push on Eco, but I don’t agree that making assumptions is scummy. Town does that too. Making that whole thing NAI.
Page 4: Grape’s town read on KJ is well explained: he knows it’s a flimsy one because the dayvig thing was clearly not a dayvig. Vaimes’ reaction to that is also understandable.
Rest of the page is just random talk that leads nowhere.
Page 5: I can see Igno go for that Axel read as both alignments. ZDS is paying attention but his big post is NAI. The whole conversation about Eco / Ignoramus feels totally useless. As do the questions KJ and Eco ask him (maybe not useless for them to get to know Igno a bit, but they won’t advance the game / reveal alignment info).
And then we arrive where I was with my “this whole game is NAI and I find nothing to talk about” issue.
@Rhand You know if you can't see anything to have opinions on you need to do something like ask questions or vote. Why are you pretending that you don't know how to generate Day 1 reads?
What makes you think I’m pretending anything? I will get Day 1 reads. I just need something to trigger me. So far there’s just nothing.
Highroller seems to go a bit too hard at Terraine. But it’s Highroller, that’s NAI for him.
Is Jackrito scumreading half the game?
Condensed, it seems like he’s saying:
(lean) Town: ZDS, Ter, Lagoon, Eco
(lean) Scum: HR, Igno, Grape, Sloth, Rhand, Axel
That’s way too many scumreads (and reads in general for the content that we have).
@Jackrito: do you approach the game with a guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty mindset?
I would say my approach is a mix of both it depends on the person. I tend to give certain people more the benefit of doubt and just hope/assume they are town early. I'm a sucker for hard effort which makes me a easy pocket target for the hard working scum. For greater context on my reads it would be Sloth you and Axel are more null. Grape is a soft scum read and Highroller and Igno being my more higher scum reads.But this game lacks deep content so hard to have really strong scum reads.
[font=georgia]I think if Eco's scum Axel is marginally +town. Shielding him for basically no reason makes them look related (in my biased Eco-is- view), but Axel is a big boy who can defend himself on his own against an ignoramus.
Jack disappearing for ~2 days and miraculously reappearing as soon as Ter asked him a question made me jump, but the analysis dump afterwards was decent and somewhat justifies the absence. It looks like he put thought into these reads and isn't just bull*****ting, like he is capable of doing.
Rhand having a hard time forming opinion is a good thing (to a minor extent), since scum-him could easily throw a couple logical or consensual town reads here or there to pretend he's doing something and hide among the crowd. I think he is legitimately struggling.
Highroller going after someone who made a bad early-Day 1 push is... typical Highroller. He's allergic to bad attacks even when it's early Day 1 and everything is flimsy .
I'm interested why you think I'm capable of BS reads. I can for sure but not sure you have ever seen me do it, to feel so confident that I have ablity to and what makes you feel I'm not here. Also my reappearance is more because of the prod by host.
Semi agree with your Rhand view, its rare for scum to not try and make something up to look town, its harder as town to do this because you are trying to work out the game and would not waste time with fake reads.
On Highroller so you think his weird push is nai and something he would do as either town or scum. So I'm looking way too much into it and should focus elsewhere.
Cool, this is more posts than I was expecting to wake up to.
(Also, for the duration of this game I'm going to try, to the best of my ability, to use full screennames whenever I mention anyone to make searching my ISO easier.)
my opinion of ZDS is I've been scum with him before and he is VERY good at appearing town...he's also just good and thorough at being town. I do not trust him but that's my hang up. Barring him doing something scummy AF or a confirm from a PR it's a slot I am not really looking to solve out D1.
My question is are you finding the content Eco posting to be substance or volume masquerading as substance?
I expect this will be most people's default ZDS read. I was getting more at something like, what have you noticed about his play so far? Does he seem too careful, is he going after easy targets, is he softballing anyone, do any of his thoughts match yours? Things like that.
As for Ecophagy, right off the bat it seems like he is one of the top posters so far [if you subtract all the gifs and fluff from other top posters], which I think is a general good look. Content-wise, I get an overall impression of someone trying to be careful with their words, but I can't tell if it's his not wanting to incriminate himself or his wanting to be as clear as possible and thus speaking a little less off-the-cuff.
His initial post to ignoramus looks a bit crafted. He's already admitted that he had the kid gloves on a bit, which could explain the crafted-ness, but that doesn't really jive with his trying to "bait" ignoramus into townreading Grape.
I'm surprised he doesn't have a budding read on, or any questions for, TerRaine. Seems like he was more interested in stopping her push and leaving it at that rather than taking the opportunity to publicly discern whether she was stubborn town or mafia pouncing on an early target.
His interactions with Rhand are pretty soft and I could see a world where they're partners.
Anyway, I'm caught up to the present and have probably presented opinions on Eco posts that didn't exist when you originally asked me this question. I think I'm leaning towards Eco being scum, possibly with Rhand, who is already a leading wagon. I sure do hope nobody tries to claim this is an opportunistic push because they're not going to win that argument with someone who's confirmed town.
I really think that if Eco were a villager, he'd have voted either TerRaine or maybe Jackrito by now. He basically shades all of Jackrito's in-thread actions.
Other general, scattered thoughts [mostly from this page]--
Maintaining my TerRaine townread. Based off memory alone, she's one of the few trying to squeeze content out of this gif-infested thread.
Highroller/Ecophagy/Rhand team? A little less sure on Rhand, because no one has really been attacked for the naked vote there.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
I think Jackrito is town. His early rambly wall feels genuine, and he's already sticking his neck out more than he did in his last scumgame. That Ecophagy was calling people out for liking Jackrito makes me even more sure he's town. Small nitpick, but I could see a world where scum!Jackrito is buddying me due to my claim, but other slots' reactions to Jackrito makes me doubt that world.
I don't think I have any stronger opinions elsewhere. I'd like to see more serious reads/votes/content from Slothful and Grapefruit. Axelrod gets a minor pass from me because I never know how to townread his Day 1 play.
Aaand as soon as I submit, I remember that Ecophagy voted Jackrito in RVS.
I guess confirm whether or not it's serious now, or find a new target?
It is serious enough to stay there. It was actually serious in the first place - I thought his "for now" comment on his initial vote was self-concious - you don't need to time-limit your RVS joke vote. I also felt like his #70 was over-explained as an answer to a tongue in cheek question.
I am rolling a read on TerRaine around my head. I felt like their inital interactions were asking questions but not being particularly interested in the answer, and their attack on me was very poor (in my certainly biased opinion). Joining the Rhand wagon was also not that great a look. They've also picked up some town reads for looking relaxed and interactive, but to me that seems NAI.
However, I kind of feel that scum-TerRaine would have actually voted me because they'd found a "legitimate tell" to push. That they didn't maybe just suggests they're poking things with sticks and processing their reads more internally. So I'm on the scummy-side-of-not-sure, but I need more to make my mind up - preferably some concrete reads.
Also bonus tin-foil theory Jackrito + TerRaine work as buddies because Jackrito came in and town-read TerRaine with hand-wavey reasoning, town-read me for appeasement (and TerRaine wasn't voting me, so no push to derail), AND scum-read & voted Highroller who is voting TerRaine. TerRaine was also keen to find out why I voted Jack while not committing to any opinion on Jack. But D1 buddy finding is putting the cart before the horse, it's just a connection I noticed.
I'll keep an eye on that Jackrito/TerRaine/??? world, because if that's the case then my reads really are awful. But I don't super believe in it, Jackrito doesn't seem the type to chainsaw-defend a buddy.
Maintaining my TerRaine townread. Based off memory alone, she's one of the few trying to squeeze content out of this gif-infested thread.
Could you check this? I appreciate TerRaine has certainly been active, but I'd like to know if on examination you think this holds up in a way that really indicates town.
Actually, Ecophagy, do you think Rhand is a bit underwhelming so far? He knows that he frequently gets run up early or Nightkilled first because mafia are afraid of his late-game play. Here he asks to be run up for info, and then says he can't get much from naked votes, and is otherwise pretty flat. What would/should town!Rhand be thinking right now?
Could you check this? I appreciate TerRaine has certainly been active, but I'd like to know if on examination you think this holds up in a way that really indicates town.
Check it how? As in see who else is trying to move the game out of fluff territory?
I think it's +town in a vacuum, and in that vein yes it's certainly an easy way for scum to appear proactive. Her general attitude and the way she's poking at people are what's fueling the townread, moreso than her activity.
I think her "you think this is tunneling, you haven't seen anything yet" remark to Highroller is very town!Ter, but it's a meta read and I understand if it appears unsatisfactory.
Other general, scattered thoughts [mostly from this page]--
Maintaining my TerRaine townread. Based off memory alone, she's one of the few trying to squeeze content out of this gif-infested thread.
Highroller/Ecophagy/Rhand team? A little less sure on Rhand, because no one has really been attacked for the naked vote there.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
I think Jackrito is town. His early rambly wall feels genuine, and he's already sticking his neck out more than he did in his last scumgame. That Ecophagy was calling people out for liking Jackrito makes me even more sure he's town. Small nitpick, but I could see a world where scum!Jackrito is buddying me due to my claim, but other slots' reactions to Jackrito makes me doubt that world.
I don't think I have any stronger opinions elsewhere. I'd like to see more serious reads/votes/content from Slothful and Grapefruit. Axelrod gets a minor pass from me because I never know how to townread his Day 1 play.
Why use “townread” in that sentence about Axel and not just “read”?
It is serious enough to stay there. It was actually serious in the first place - I thought his "for now" comment on his initial vote was self-concious - you don't need to time-limit your RVS joke vote.
Mm. Pardon my confirmation bias, but I don't like the "serious vote masquerading as RVS," even if you didn't intend for it to appear that way. It very much looked like a joke.
Why use “townread” in that sentence about Axel and not just “read”?
Because my record with Axelrod is very specifically "scumread Axelrod Day 1 in all of our mutual games, even though he's been town every single time so far."
Actually, Ecophagy, do you think Rhand is a bit underwhelming so far? He knows that he frequently gets run up early or Nightkilled first because mafia are afraid of his late-game play. Here he asks to be run up for info, and then says he can't get much from naked votes, and is otherwise pretty flat. What would/should town!Rhand be thinking right now?
It's a good question. He certainly is underwhelming, but as I said above (agreeing with ZDS), mafia-Rhand knows it's underwhelming and could have come up with something to make content about. So I kind of believe Rhand is struggling to get a hook, maybe even a bit deliberately trying to avoid eating the N1 NK. Asking to be voted is a bit "dead dove, do not eat" - if he'd have got real votes he could have had some comment on it, but he realistically wasn't going to get much more than naked, uniformative votes.
So while I would like town-Rhand to be thinking "oh I've got no reads let's ask some questions or make a spicy vote to stir the pot", I don't think it's unreasonable that he's actually thinking "I've got no reads what do".
So underwhelming? Yes. Scummy? Not yet.
Quote from gooLagoon »
Check it how? As in see who else is trying to move the game out of fluff territory?
I meant read the posts again rather than relying on memory.
@people voting Rhand: at this point, I think you guys should either move your votes to an actual scumread, or explain why your votes on Rhand are serious. Mine is serious and I intend to leave it there for the time being, unless movement picks up on a different scumread.
Mm. Pardon my confirmation bias, but I don't like the "serious vote masquerading as RVS," even if you didn't intend for it to appear that way. It very much looked like a joke.
It was a serious vote with biting irony. I also wanted to see Jack react rather than just outright saying it was serious (his reaction was "semi interested why they voted me and asked Ter about me also though.", which I think is a scummy thing to say but that might just be conf bias).
Heh, I reread TerRaine, and I ended up disliking you even more when TerRaine specifically asks you if your Jackrito vote is serious and you sidestep it.
Why use “townread” in that sentence about Axel and not just “read”?
Because my record with Axelrod is very specifically "scumread Axelrod Day 1 in all of our mutual games, even though he's been town every single time so far."
That means you also don’t know how to scumread him, but ok.
If you wouldn’t make that conscious decision, would you be scumreading him here?
Heh, I reread TerRaine, and I ended up disliking you even more when TerRaine specifically asks you if your Jackrito vote is serious and you sidestep it.
I'm still fine with her.
I was giving Jackrito time to react to it, but so it goes.
Pff my tablet keeps telling me to Please write something in the comment box. On my phone it does work. Weird and annoying :/
That means you also don’t know how to scumread him, but ok.
If you wouldn’t make that conscious decision, would you be scumreading him here?
No, it means I don't know how to read him at all, but I've admitted as much.
I don't think so. The main reason I scumread his Day 1 play is because it has such a different vibe from his mid-to-lategame play, so without that knowledge he wouldn't really stick out to me.
getting through this D1...
We really do need to wagon someone for the hell of it.
Or maybe I'll make a super tryhard readslist tomorrow, if my future-self hasn't already decided to be lazy.
my opinion of ZDS is I've been scum with him before and he is VERY good at appearing town...he's also just good and thorough at being town. I do not trust him but that's my hang up. Barring him doing something scummy AF or a confirm from a PR it's a slot I am not really looking to solve out D1.
My question is are you finding the content Eco posting to be substance or volume masquerading as substance?
That was my virgin-alarm. It's programmed to go off before you do!
Rhand (4): Slothful, Killjoy, TerRaine, gooLagoon
Ecophagy (2): Grapefruit21, ZeDorkSlipeur
gooLagoon (1): Jackrito
Highroller (1): Axelrod
Jackrito (1): Ecophagy
Axelrod (1): ignoramus
Not Voting (2): Highroller, Rhand
Jackrito, Grapefruit21, and Highroller have all been prodded.
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to eject!
Day 1 deadline is Saturday, February 6th, at 2:00pm MST
Please inform me if there are any errors in votecounts.
Thank goodness like 1/3 of this thread is memes. All caught up.
Vote TerRaine.
The push on Ecophagy does not feel organic, it feels like someone looking for someone to attack and a bandwagon to hop on.
ZDS’ vote on Eco was bad. Of course it was. It was a presumptuous, baseless vote about how someone isn’t hunting enough done during RVS. They're always bad. Now Shoushiling Mafia demonstrated that this may or may not just be ZDS’s favorite thing, I don’t know. I’m calling it NAI based on my knowledge of him as a player.
What is really bad is that TerRaine gets right on the bandwagon. For no less than FOUR posts, TerRaine proceeds to jump down Ecophagy’s throat for basically nothing. My favorite gem was this one:
Dude, he used it in quotes. He obviously does not agree.
There is nothing in Ecophagy's posts that justifies this reaction.
Re: KJ/Grape: I disagree that KJ’s reaction is alignment-indicative. Saying, “wait, did you just shoot me” does not make one town. FOS: Grape.
Now did anything else interesting or noteworthy…
Holy ****…
Gotta say, turn 1 roleclaim of a power role? I like your style!
Would you care to share why?
I have to say if you think THAT was me jumping down a players throat..anyone who's played with me can tell ya we're in for a good time.
@KJ and Jack. Were you both in the Prison game with me? If not can someone give me a refresher on who was cause I'm lazy and don't feel like looking it up at the moment
I was in prison game, I was the poor sap who was in a cell with ZDS and got suckered by him the entire game. Pretty sure KJ was in that game also but may of died early.
And Ter was JumbleOfLetters.
Lagoon is in my town pile also not sure how true his cop claim is, but the general play is solid enough especially compared to others, I liked his posts about grape's view on KJ seeming a bit forced and not real especially since it bothered me also in my reread.
Eco is also in my town pile also I feel they handled the questions well, and they are showing their thoughts clearly and asking the right questions, it is of course possible for scum to do all of this, but they feel natural to me. semi interested why they voted me and asked Ter about me also though.
Not a big fan of Highroller recent post and vote, mainly because it is the reverse of my own view on Terr, and it feels like a forced read I can't believe he thinks Terr questions on Eco are too much. This is a game of mafia we don't get anywhere unless we question others and try to figure out if their thoughts and play are consistent. Scum reading someone for moving game forward in a normal manner makes no sense to me.
Igno is a big red flag to me atm, he starts off with this weird push on Axel which is beyond weak, and shocked people are considering this real enough to vote or scum read him on. After getting some early heat off that he has mainly being in answering questions mode. I also don't like when people give own self meta because it is easy to lie about that stuff to your own advantage. I want to see them put some of what they say into practice to see how good they are rather then answering questions which is a easy way to hide.
Need more from Grape, but his last post also felt a bit forced imo, but from memory every game so far here I have had issues with Grape's style something about it just comes off scummy to me. His view on Axel and KJ just does not feel like something real to me and something he espically would believe at this stage.
I know Sloth fluffs a bit, but he is really lacking impact. My memory could be wrong, but I remember he had more impact in my other games with him and he was a easy town read for me. This game he lacks impact and comes off a bit nervous and unnatural could be insane here though you all know him better.
I have no issue with the Rhand wagon as well, we need to start making movements and his last post of having no thoughts, just seems weird to me because they is content to discuss and make pushs on.
I need a lot more from Axel because in this game he is more a topic of discussion then an actual player adding to the game.
This feels more like the town ZDS that I played with in games after, far too early to tell though and my sample size is too small. I'm not going to worry about him too much today, if he is still alive by day 3 I deep dive him.
Is Terrain known as a busser? Because if so, then a Terrain/Eco w/w world's chances are higher.
Why would a real cop claim for literally no reason on Day 1? Why would anyone just take it at face value?
For the record, I am not counterclaiming.
Please see #222
@Jackrito: Was your first vote on goooLagoon a joke vote, or did you see something worth investigating? Why are you voting HR over ignoramus when you read on the latter is stronger?
Page 2: More gif’s among which the one where Grape “killed” KJ with an Indiana Jones gif. Which was clearly a joke because no mod ever will give you a role that says “Quote someone’s post and add this gif and that person will die”. So yeh, more nothingness on this page.
I guess Terraine looks ok with trying to get things started somewhat.
I have no idea how ZDS comes out of this with townreads / mindmelds with KJ and Grape. (he says it’s for their takes on Axel and each other later. Ok I guess, I don’t see it but :shrug:).
Page 3: Ignoramus’ entrance is totally NAI, as is the questioning of his entrance by Ter / Eco and the suspicion by Axel. I get that it’s a bad Axel vote, so I understand the talk about it, but it’s not scummy bad. Just bad. Which also explains ZDS coming to a townread there. It’s all fine.
Then there’s the Eco is coaching thing which is really too little to get a read out of. I have to squint to detect the coaching to start with and helping a new player can come from helpful town and pocketing mafia both.
I understand Terraine’s push on Eco, but I don’t agree that making assumptions is scummy. Town does that too. Making that whole thing NAI.
Page 4: Grape’s town read on KJ is well explained: he knows it’s a flimsy one because the dayvig thing was clearly not a dayvig. Vaimes’ reaction to that is also understandable.
Rest of the page is just random talk that leads nowhere.
Page 5: I can see Igno go for that Axel read as both alignments. ZDS is paying attention but his big post is NAI. The whole conversation about Eco / Ignoramus feels totally useless. As do the questions KJ and Eco ask him (maybe not useless for them to get to know Igno a bit, but they won’t advance the game / reveal alignment info).
And then we arrive where I was with my “this whole game is NAI and I find nothing to talk about” issue.
What makes you think I’m pretending anything? I will get Day 1 reads. I just need something to trigger me. So far there’s just nothing.
Highroller seems to go a bit too hard at Terraine. But it’s Highroller, that’s NAI for him.
Is Jackrito scumreading half the game?
Condensed, it seems like he’s saying:
(lean) Town: ZDS, Ter, Lagoon, Eco
(lean) Scum: HR, Igno, Grape, Sloth, Rhand, Axel
That’s way too many scumreads (and reads in general for the content that we have).
@Jackrito: do you approach the game with a guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty mindset?
It's more than you know that sitting around going "man nothing is happening" is a bad way to make things happen. So I was wondering why you aren't asking questions or anything to generate something you can base a read off. I don't think it's scummy, just weird.
Yeh and it's frustrating me to no end. It's never happened to me before that I feel utterly useless on page 6 of a game lol.
I do realise now that my game start is reactive and not proactive. I don't have a bunch of standardised questions that can kick off a game.
Jack disappearing for ~2 days and miraculously reappearing as soon as Ter asked him a question made me jump, but the analysis dump afterwards was decent and somewhat justifies the absence. It looks like he put thought into these reads and isn't just bull*****ting, like he is capable of doing.
Rhand having a hard time forming opinion is a good thing (to a minor extent), since scum-him could easily throw a couple logical or consensual town reads here or there to pretend he's doing something and hide among the crowd. I think he is legitimately struggling.
Highroller going after someone who made a bad early-Day 1 push is... typical Highroller. He's allergic to bad attacks even when it's early Day 1 and everything is flimsy .
———
Could be. It's a Day 1 read anyway, I'm not married to it — but I also think it's stronger than "it could be a scum ploy", which is never a good argument. Any reason you are concerned about this issue? I doubt you would have been so quick to conclude they were newb town if you were not presuming that was the case. I suppose this kind of bias is NAI, like Sloth said. Nevertheless it bugs me how much it looks like you were going for the easy pocket.
Someone said you are rusty. Are you rusty?
You haven't argued "on principle" against any other vote (or I missed it), are you fine with them? @Ter: You are obviously giving Eco the stink eye, any reason you are not *actually* going after him?
I was her scumbuddy once (Prison Block II on this site) and she was really awkward when we (well mostly I) bussed Goo or when she bussed me. So, no.
I will also say for the record that I didn’t/don’t believe zoo’s Cop claim either. I don’t see why anyone who doesn’t have a D1 claiming fetish (Highroller) would ever straight up believe it. I do think it’s Town+ for goo though. Mainly because I think it pretty unlikely a mafia starts his game off with a gambit like that.
Kind of like Jack’s last big post too.
Not that he can’t have a different take, but I was noting it.
This was my thought as well, although Rhand is condfident enough as mafia to not care about any flak for it. So it's lightly +town but very WIFOMy.
It's somewhat sad that trying to be nice to help a new player is immediately suspected as pocketing, but I suppose that's the game.
I probably am. My last game was about 2 years ago, and my last town game was in 2018 and that was a Micro.
I'm not going to argue againsst every bad vote on principle because that sounds like mafia purgatory. I get that you're looking for an inconsistent mindset, but I was just trying to help the new guy out.
That is called applying pressure and a ongoing push that is not unheard of in these games, and moves them forward. It lets us see the mindset of both more clearly, how else do you expect us to get anywhere. Going after someone 5 times in 2 hours as you call it I personally don't see as high either.
It was joke/RVS Lagoon had not done anything to bother me, we also have some past history so all in good fun.
I went for Highroller over Ignoramus, because Highroller post that bothered me was recent and stood out to me and is the most fake thing this game imo. Ignoramus on the other hand has had a fair bit of pressure already and is in answering questions mode already. So I wanted to give them some breathing room to play their natural game, and not just tunnel a new person like I did in my last game.
I would say my approach is a mix of both it depends on the person. I tend to give certain people more the benefit of doubt and just hope/assume they are town early. I'm a sucker for hard effort which makes me a easy pocket target for the hard working scum. For greater context on my reads it would be Sloth you and Axel are more null. Grape is a soft scum read and Highroller and Igno being my more higher scum reads.But this game lacks deep content so hard to have really strong scum reads.
I'm interested why you think I'm capable of BS reads. I can for sure but not sure you have ever seen me do it, to feel so confident that I have ablity to and what makes you feel I'm not here. Also my reappearance is more because of the prod by host.
Semi agree with your Rhand view, its rare for scum to not try and make something up to look town, its harder as town to do this because you are trying to work out the game and would not waste time with fake reads.
On Highroller so you think his weird push is nai and something he would do as either town or scum. So I'm looking way too much into it and should focus elsewhere.
(Also, for the duration of this game I'm going to try, to the best of my ability, to use full screennames whenever I mention anyone to make searching my ISO easier.)
First, TerRaine-- I expect this will be most people's default ZDS read. I was getting more at something like, what have you noticed about his play so far? Does he seem too careful, is he going after easy targets, is he softballing anyone, do any of his thoughts match yours? Things like that.
As for Ecophagy, right off the bat it seems like he is one of the top posters so far [if you subtract all the gifs and fluff from other top posters], which I think is a general good look. Content-wise, I get an overall impression of someone trying to be careful with their words, but I can't tell if it's his not wanting to incriminate himself or his wanting to be as clear as possible and thus speaking a little less off-the-cuff.
His initial post to ignoramus looks a bit crafted. He's already admitted that he had the kid gloves on a bit, which could explain the crafted-ness, but that doesn't really jive with his trying to "bait" ignoramus into townreading Grape.
I'm surprised he doesn't have a budding read on, or any questions for, TerRaine. Seems like he was more interested in stopping her push and leaving it at that rather than taking the opportunity to publicly discern whether she was stubborn town or mafia pouncing on an early target.
His interactions with Rhand are pretty soft and I could see a world where they're partners.
Anyway, I'm caught up to the present and have probably presented opinions on Eco posts that didn't exist when you originally asked me this question. I think I'm leaning towards Eco being scum, possibly with Rhand, who is already a leading wagon. I sure do hope nobody tries to claim this is an opportunistic push because they're not going to win that argument with someone who's confirmed town.
I really think that if Eco were a villager, he'd have voted either TerRaine or maybe Jackrito by now. He basically shades all of Jackrito's in-thread actions.
I guess confirm whether or not it's serious now, or find a new target?
Maintaining my TerRaine townread. Based off memory alone, she's one of the few trying to squeeze content out of this gif-infested thread.
Highroller/Ecophagy/Rhand team? A little less sure on Rhand, because no one has really been attacked for the naked vote there.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
I think Jackrito is town. His early rambly wall feels genuine, and he's already sticking his neck out more than he did in his last scumgame. That Ecophagy was calling people out for liking Jackrito makes me even more sure he's town. Small nitpick, but I could see a world where scum!Jackrito is buddying me due to my claim, but other slots' reactions to Jackrito makes me doubt that world.
I don't think I have any stronger opinions elsewhere. I'd like to see more serious reads/votes/content from Slothful and Grapefruit. Axelrod gets a minor pass from me because I never know how to townread his Day 1 play.
gooLagoon
TerRaine
Jackrito
ZeDorkSlipeur
Axelrod
ignoramus
Killjoy
Grapefruit21
Slothful
Rhand
Ecophagy
Highroller
It is serious enough to stay there. It was actually serious in the first place - I thought his "for now" comment on his initial vote was self-concious - you don't need to time-limit your RVS joke vote. I also felt like his #70 was over-explained as an answer to a tongue in cheek question.
I am rolling a read on TerRaine around my head. I felt like their inital interactions were asking questions but not being particularly interested in the answer, and their attack on me was very poor (in my certainly biased opinion). Joining the Rhand wagon was also not that great a look. They've also picked up some town reads for looking relaxed and interactive, but to me that seems NAI.
However, I kind of feel that scum-TerRaine would have actually voted me because they'd found a "legitimate tell" to push. That they didn't maybe just suggests they're poking things with sticks and processing their reads more internally. So I'm on the scummy-side-of-not-sure, but I need more to make my mind up - preferably some concrete reads.
Also bonus tin-foil theory Jackrito + TerRaine work as buddies because Jackrito came in and town-read TerRaine with hand-wavey reasoning, town-read me for appeasement (and TerRaine wasn't voting me, so no push to derail), AND scum-read & voted Highroller who is voting TerRaine. TerRaine was also keen to find out why I voted Jack while not committing to any opinion on Jack. But D1 buddy finding is putting the cart before the horse, it's just a connection I noticed.
Could you check this? I appreciate TerRaine has certainly been active, but I'd like to know if on examination you think this holds up in a way that really indicates town.
I think it's +town in a vacuum, and in that vein yes it's certainly an easy way for scum to appear proactive. Her general attitude and the way she's poking at people are what's fueling the townread, moreso than her activity.
I think her "you think this is tunneling, you haven't seen anything yet" remark to Highroller is very town!Ter, but it's a meta read and I understand if it appears unsatisfactory.
Why use “townread” in that sentence about Axel and not just “read”?
It's a good question. He certainly is underwhelming, but as I said above (agreeing with ZDS), mafia-Rhand knows it's underwhelming and could have come up with something to make content about. So I kind of believe Rhand is struggling to get a hook, maybe even a bit deliberately trying to avoid eating the N1 NK. Asking to be voted is a bit "dead dove, do not eat" - if he'd have got real votes he could have had some comment on it, but he realistically wasn't going to get much more than naked, uniformative votes.
So while I would like town-Rhand to be thinking "oh I've got no reads let's ask some questions or make a spicy vote to stir the pot", I don't think it's unreasonable that he's actually thinking "I've got no reads what do".
So underwhelming? Yes. Scummy? Not yet.
I meant read the posts again rather than relying on memory.
It was a serious vote with biting irony. I also wanted to see Jack react rather than just outright saying it was serious (his reaction was "semi interested why they voted me and asked Ter about me also though.", which I think is a scummy thing to say but that might just be conf bias).
I'm still fine with her.
That means you also don’t know how to scumread him, but ok.
If you wouldn’t make that conscious decision, would you be scumreading him here?
I was giving Jackrito time to react to it, but so it goes.
I don't think so. The main reason I scumread his Day 1 play is because it has such a different vibe from his mid-to-lategame play, so without that knowledge he wouldn't really stick out to me.