So I’m TMI’ing that Axelrod is a villager? But he’s buddying me? And you’re right, “Rhand is a weak scumread that I’d rather figure out” isn’t a stance, it’s a read in motion. I think that’s a more productive use of my time rather than parking my vote on Ecophagy or Highroller.
In conclusion, I’m not shocked at the vote, but I am mildly surprised at the complete opposite worldview. That seems more like a calculated move, to be honest, unless one of us is just having a bad game.
I think I said twice that I don’t think you and Axel are scum together? Why would you pick that out?
Doop. @Ter: Sorry for accidently misgendering you!
Hm. Ok.
I agree with you on Rhand. Though I can empathize with the idea that nothing was really happening (I thought so too) I wasn't a huge fan of his choice/reaction to complain about it instead of doing something about it.
Eco actually called that out. Do you think Eco was bussing there?
In conclusion, I’m not shocked at the vote, but I am mildly surprised at the complete opposite worldview. That seems more like a calculated move, to be honest, unless one of us is just having a bad game.
I mean, some of us have to having a bad game because we can't all be right. Why do you think mafia-Rhand would drop a totally opposite world view to push you when he could easily have made something less controversial?
@Rhand: Why did you choose to vote gooLagoon over TerRaine and Jackrito who already have votes on and are (at least marginally) more realistic wagons?
I think I said twice that I don’t think you and Axel are scum together? Why would you pick that out?
@Grape: you’re a total gut read.
Because I want to know which one you think is most likely, and have your reads reflect that. That you’re leaving both of us in your scumpile is pretty lazy, and very easy to shift into “oh whoops Lagoon flipped town I guess Axelrod was the more likely scum after all” in the imaginary wacko world where you do get me voted out.
I mean, some of us have to having a bad game because we can't all be right. Why do you think mafia-Rhand would drop a totally opposite world view to push you when he could easily have made something less controversial?
@Rhand: Why did you choose to vote gooLagoon over TerRaine and Jackrito who already have votes on and are (at least marginally) more realistic wagons?
My ego says “because he needs to protect his scumbuddies and keep the misyeet pool nice and open.”
I don’t really have a serious answer. If he’s scum, he’ll do what he thinks is best for his team. If he’s town, lol shrug we’ll work it out eventually I guess.
My ego says “because he needs to protect his scumbuddies and keep the misyeet pool nice and open.”
I don’t really have a serious answer. If he’s scum, he’ll do what he thinks is best for his team. If he’s town, lol shrug we’ll work it out eventually I guess. [/quote]
Fair enough. After I posted I thought "What if it's because Rhand knows Eco is town, so he's setting up for D2 pushing the anti-Eco squad after I get executed?" and now I am paranoid.
My ego says “because he needs to protect his scumbuddies and keep the misyeet pool nice and open.”
I don’t really have a serious answer. If he’s scum, he’ll do what he thinks is best for his team. If he’s town, lol shrug we’ll work it out eventually I guess.
Fair enough. After I posted I thought "What if it's because Rhand knows Eco is town, so he's setting up for D2 pushing the anti-Eco squad after I get executed?" and now I am paranoid.
The battle lines are drawn. I think this is an unusual amount of opposite-read groups for D1, but it is at least organic. Conventional wisdom would suggest there are mafia in the in-between group - of which I would call Grapefruit the best fit because a weak town-Eco read is closest to supporting a "side" without committment. KJ also hasn't come out with particularly hard reads ("Eco/Ter maybe not w/w?" is not groundbreaking).
I would like to know:
Axelrod - How do you feel about being low on the reads list of your town reads?
Highroller - What do you think about Rhand?
Jackrito - Your town reads disagree with you about Ecophagy. Do you think they're wrong?
I think he's scum because his view of her play feels incredibly warped, and I don't like how uber-protective of Ecophagy he is. It does not look like it's coming from an early Day 1 villager.
Anyone but Highroller and I'd be more inclined to agree. But you know Highroller's meta is to go straight to 100 and never back down.
We're arguing that hedging doesn't exist and/or is definitely town? K, cool.
Negative. Hedging in general remains scummy. In this particular instance I would have expected scum to seize the opportunity to make a "justifiable" vote in the early game. Don't be deliberately obtuse.
Eco is my weakest town read so I'm not willing to fight over it because I could clearly be wrong I think you are all better then me and in the past I have shown I'm not the best judge of character. In situations like this it is better to side with the people you townread more to try and get a group dynamic going.
Doop. @Ter: Sorry for accidently misgendering you!
Hm. Ok.
I agree with you on Rhand. Though I can empathize with the idea that nothing was really happening (I thought so too) I wasn't a huge fan of his choice/reaction to complain about it instead of doing something about it.
Eco actually called that out. Do you think Eco was bussing there?
I disagree that calling out =/= bussing.
Agree with Goo here. In fact KJ can you refresh my memory and point to the post with the call out?
In conclusion, I’m not shocked at the vote, but I am mildly surprised at the complete opposite worldview. That seems more like a calculated move, to be honest, unless one of us is just having a bad game.
I mean, some of us have to having a bad game because we can't all be right. Why do you think mafia-Rhand would drop a totally opposite world view to push you when he could easily have made something less controversial?
@Rhand: Why did you choose to vote gooLagoon over TerRaine and Jackrito who already have votes on and are (at least marginally) more realistic wagons?
Because he’s my strongest read. I wasn’t looking at wagons when I voted. And I don’t care at this point really.
I think I said twice that I don’t think you and Axel are scum together? Why would you pick that out?
@Grape: you’re a total gut read.
Because I want to know which one you think is most likely, and have your reads reflect that. That you’re leaving both of us in your scumpile is pretty lazy, and very easy to shift into “oh whoops Lagoon flipped town I guess Axelrod was the more likely scum after all” in the imaginary wacko world where you do get me voted out.
You obviously, I am voting you. Are you saying I should artificially push Axel in a better category because I am scum reading you?
I know you’re better than thinking townclearing people because they don’t match an early scumread is what I should be doing.
Yes, you should, because otherwise it looks like you’re trying to keep both options open.
Naturally, if you’re right and I am scum, Axelrod is unlikely to be my partner, so he should by definition be a townread. But you don’t have him as a townread right now.
You can always hypothetically move him down later if I flip town.
Yes, you should, because otherwise it looks like you’re trying to keep both options open.
Naturally, if you’re right and I am scum, Axelrod is unlikely to be my partner, so he should by definition be a townread. But you don’t have him as a townread right now.
You can always hypothetically move him down later if I flip town.
Anyway, what I’m getting at is Rhand looks more like he wants to keep the option of Axelrod being scum open rather than commit to the one world where I’m scum and Axelrod is town, at least until he gets more information to reevaluate.
Is Ecophagy more likely to be a villager or mafia? Since Grape popped in to give an empty read.
I am not sure if this question was directed at me, but I am currently on Eco being "more likely" mafia than Town. With the large caveat that I haven't really parsed that interaction with ignoramus yet, which I want to do.
[b]@Axel, LAgoon:[/b] Talk to me about your scumread on Highroller. I'm not immediately seeing it.
It is currently based on Highroller doing nothing that feels even a little Town. He's barely started, so, it could just be that, but the few posts he does have don't impress. I don't like the Terraine vote. I don't like the reaction to Vaimes' Cop claim. And since then he's just peace'd out.
[b]@Axel:[/b] Where is Igno on that list, and are you willing to commit to everyone's placement on it being exact to Lagoons aside from Igno?
I [i]commit[/i] to nothing. I don't even do lists like that this early, but I read that one, and on reflection, thought that it pretty much was actually in accordance with my worldview to this point. So I thought I would say so. I'm more about general groupings than exact placements anyway. Ignoramus is in the "bottom" group, with HR, Eco. and Rhand right now.
This post keeps bugging me. Not just that word “townread”, which following his explanation should still be “read”; it seems like he knows Axel is town and is looking for a reason to start townreading him.
But also that Jackrito read. That Jackrito post had way too much suspicion in it for the content that was in thread at that point. I don’t understand how you can arrive to a town clear there.
Same for ZDS and Axel to a degree, but Vaimes goes for a town clear here, which is very premature.
Axel just agreeing with Vaimes’ readslist without adding any input feels like buddying. Axel/Vaimes not a thing probably because just quoting a buddy’s readslist and saying “I agree” seems like something mafia doesn’t do.
I think Eco and KJ are town. Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense.
And KJ is doing his usual thing where he questions everything.
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
You think he's chainsawing Eco?
A little of A, a little of B.
I think he's scum because his view of her play feels incredibly warped, and I don't like how uber-protective of Ecophagy he is. It does not look like it's coming from an early Day 1 villager.
Even though I have stronger scumreads on him and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment. I don't really buy the "boo hoo I don't know what to do" song and dance from him. He can do literally anything to throw people in a tizzy and get content going. Right now he can comment on Jackrito's wall, Highroller's vote and defense + TerRaine's response, ZDS' general mannerisms, my claim and reads, and so on.
I did do things to get content going. I made people talk about me. With lack of other reads, getting people to talk about myself is the best way to get reads on them.
And I can tell you I don’t like your approach. You’re taking the easy route here, throwing me into your suspicions without taking a real stance. But while you say I am not your strongest read, you are not voting the ones that are.
I’m also having problems with Terraine because her whole worldview is more or less mine reversed. And her reaction to me is bad in a similar way as Vaimes’ is.
I’m running out of time, my train is going to arrive soon.
Quick worldview:
Town lean
Eco
KJ
Grape
Null
Ignoramus
ZDS
Sloth
HR
Lean mafia
Axel
Jacrito
Terraine
Vaimes
Vaimes / Axel probably not together
[b]vote: gooLagoon[/b]
I have many problems with this post. I imagine I will elaborate later.
I would like to know:
[list]
[*][b]Axelrod[/b] - How do you feel about being low on the reads list of your town reads?
I'm not sure I understand this question. You mean Vaimes readlist that I coppied? I thought I was kind of in the middle of his "reads."
[/quote]
List tags are malformed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It's flabbergasting. However, it's also unlikely Eco is lying when it would be so much easier to say it was a joke at the time and shifted into a serious vote.
One way Eco could be lying is if he wants to paint himself as a rational townie who does everything for a reason. This is a great way to be townread by exploiting human bias. It also fits with goo's analysis of him as very careful.
The issue with this argument is it cannot be proven or disproven, and is born from the sum of my own bias against Eco and the flabbergastingness of the situation. I can only make sense of things by being paranoid and it's frustrating.
• Possible bussing aside, goo is even more confirmed town if Eco is scum, for bringing up the entire issue above.
I don't mind the line about not knowing how to townread Day 1 Axel, I interpret it as "I don't like him but that's always the case Day 1". I have the same issue so I can relate.
I agree with Rhand, Axel and goo are unlikely to be woof-woof.
• Jack being "consensusy" is usual for him and is NAI. Not that I find his reads/leans particularly consensusy, other than the reasons given for them.
• Highroller having a warped view of others' play is completely par with the course for him. It's at most NAI.
• I am a treasure hunter looking for a type of gold named "Clarity". I ask questions to lay my doubts in the open and get the questionee to reveal their mindset. I do not expect anyone to slip up, nor do I expect to be wowed, and I (try to) drop points once they've been clarified enough.
I am intentionally getting away from the "prodding until something is revealed" method, it keeps failing me. I keep prodding Eco because I keep not getting him.
• Ter's wall is superficial at times but not to the extent of being Reads Instead of Content. By itself it's NAI, the fact she did it at all is a little +town.
I probably am. My last game was about 2 years ago, and my last town game was in 2018 and that was a Micro.
Quote from ZDS »
You haven't argued "on principle" against any other vote (or I missed it), are you fine with them?
I'm not going to argue againsst every bad vote on principle because that sounds like mafia purgatory. I get that you're looking for an inconsistent mindset, but I was just trying to help the new guy out.
I asked about the rustiness because I can't see myself giving advice while rusty — but I did post a lot about how to play or against bad-on-principle arguments in my one post-hiatus scum game.
Granted, everyone's different and you seemed to have a much softer hiatus than mine, where you still hung around and spectated games. So... it's just another thing that bugs me but doesn't prove anything.
I'm interested why you think I'm capable of BS reads. I can for sure but not sure you have ever seen me do it, to feel so confident that I have ablity to and what makes you feel I'm not here.
You were caught in Snow White for making up reads while blatantly not reading the thread.
But yes, in the vacuum world where you don't know Rhand's alignment and he could be town. Are you not taking things like that into consideration when trying to solve him?
Why are you phrasing this like Sloth knows Rhand's alignment?
I sit in my helicopter while they both drown in the null swamp, both slowly rising to the surface where the town leans are, but not there yet. Goo rises faster than Ter, whose foot got momentarily stuck in some plants early on.
———
I can finally pinpoint what bothers me so much with Ecophagy. It's the fact I used (pre-hiatus) to play exactly like this as scum. I was more forward than he is because I like to take the lead, but it would have been the only obvious difference. I can literally see my old scum self in his posts, and the positive comments Eco is getting from some players are the same comments I used to get all the time.
@Axel - I meant the town reads on Goo/Vaimes' readslist that you agree with (i.e. TerRaine, Jackrito) have you low down their lists and I wondered how you felt about being scum-read-by-people-you-town-read-(implicitly). But on closer inspection, Vaimes as you say isn't that down on you, Jackrito is mostly null, so it's only really TerRaine who is genuninely scum reading you.
So I guess it would be cool if you wanted to talk about TerRaine and how they're reading you, but it's not really as interesting a line of discussion as I'd initially thought.
Wait I was caught in snow White. I thought I subbed out before gaining real heat. That game was a terrible example though, and me barely trying. Which sadly is turning into a trend in my scum games here. Finding it hard to find thread footing, and subbing out in embrassment. Seasons being the other key example which us a shame since my scum play is better then my town.
Actual bringing up Snow White though eases my mind a bit on ZDS though because he does have reasons which I expect him to have if town.
@ZDS: Voting Jackrito wasn't supposed to be a reaction test, but I didn't outright say it was a serious vote because I was interested in his reaction - but I thought he was worth voting in the first place. I was happy to give him some rope, you know?
I get the idea that you're looking at me being a person who is ultra-reasonable and rational (malciously, in your mind) and that you're seeing shades of your own scum game. But really, I have a track record of being relentlessly reasonable and analytical across both alignments so saying "Eco would be a rational-townie-like-scum" is both 100% correct and virtually useless.
If I was joke-voting Jackrito I'd have just said so. You're obviously finding my play hard to parse (and maybe I'm more rusty than I've thought and have forgtotten how to interact properly) but it's clear to me that this confusion is leading you to force my square peg into the round hole of a scum read rather than give yourself time to actually work out what I'm doing. I don't really understand why you're so insistent on forcing a read on me right now other than because it bothers you.
Okay, here's a *much longer than you need or anyone wants* dive into Eco/Igno. I'm attempting to spoiler it, but my tags don't seem to be working?
Igno showed up at post #103 with a very fine E.T. gif. He immediately expressed (minor?) suspicion of me, due to the way I was asking for help with how to post gifs. Thought that might have been me pretending to be ignorant. This seemed further bolstered by his belief that I was an experienced player.
That is all wrong, but not the point of this.
Eco. comes in at post #106. Now, this post I can read in two different ways. One is Eco. trying to lay a trap of some kind of Igno. (by asking him how he knew that I was experienced) and the other is Eco. trying to instigate something, by pointing out that Killjoy appeared to agree with this worldview.
The first interpretation is the kind of thing I might do. When I'm trying to suss out someone who has made a remark that catches my eye. Give them a little rope and see if they will hang themselves with it. Like, how did he know I was experienced....etc. Might be nothing, but see what he says.
The second remark I like a lot less. I've never been much of one for "hey, so-and-so is saying this about player X, which you seem to agree with, how do you feel about so-and-so," type remarks. They feel like leading questions. Like Eco. is being the gadfly on the wall trying to stir up trouble.
Anyway, the questions were asked. Igno responds in #107. He knew I was experienced because of my post count. He has some other light reads.
Eco. comes right back in #108. Seems to be digging in a little here. Although he appears to let Igno. off the hook for the "post count" explanation of how he knew I was experienced ("I thought it was that..." which I probably wouldn't have done), he goes for the next thing, which is: if Axel's so experienced, would he really do something so newbie-stupid? That is, again, a line I could maybe see myself taking? Maybe not quite so bluntly, if I was really trying to suss him out. I think "would he really do that if he were scum...?" are very WIFOM type-questions. But it's maybe a fair follow-up to evaluate mindset. He also gives him some pointers on forum rules which is neither here nor there.
The next thing that happened was ZDS voting for Eco. in #140. ZDS says that Eco's posts towards Igno. look like "coaching." He particularly doesn't care for the way that Eco. went "I thought it was that" in regards to Igno's explanation of how he knew I was experienced. Which, admittedly, was a little weird.
Eco. responds to that in #141. And this is interesting to me. Because - before this - I would have said, based on the questions he was asking, that Eco was still trying to suss Igno. out. But the response to ZDS here seems to suggest that Eco has already come to a conclusion - that Igno. is Town. Without Igno. even coming back and answering the last question Eco. had asked. (he doesn't say "Igno. Town" but instead that he thinks "his reads are genuine" which is mostly the same thing.)
Eco. logic here is also kind of bad, because he seems to think that Igno's answer to the question "how did you know he was experienced" was logical and reasonable, when it really wasn't. He seems to suggest that if Igno had said something along the lines of "oh, I didn't know if Axelrod was actually experienced, I was just assuming it," then that would have looked bad for Igno. Except, in what world is scum-Igno ever giving that response? Eco. further goes on to explain why he's "coaching" which is mainly to help a new/inexperienced player out, and hopefully not scare them/make them defensive before they've even started.
Terraine gets involved here, and I kind of like her angle. She basically asks "why would you assume Ingo. is a new player? Why not just ask them?
Eco.'s response to that is to say he remembered that Rhand had said pre-game he was bringing a recruit, and also that Igno's first few posts seemed "newbish." He says if Igno. comes back and clarifies that he isn't actually new, then the context for his read (the town one, presumably) changes.
Rhand then clarifies that Igno isn't a new player. And Eco goes "whoops." Says this doesn't "invalidate" his read, but it's less telling.
Igno comes back in #208. Somewhat interestingly (to me) he does not answer the outstanding question that Eco. had to him from back in #108. Which was "if Axel is experienced, would he really do the newbie thing you are suspecting him for?" Igno. answers a lot of other people's questions, but not that one.
Which leads to the next thing: Eco. doesn't care! ZDS drills into Eco. some more in #219. He wants Eco to explain how his questions in #106 and #108 were supposed to help him figure out Ingo. and whether he's gotten any closer.
Eco. responds in #222, and says that he already explained this in #141, but further elaborates. Also seem to say that his read was developed as of Igno's post #107, and post #108 was just "an attempt to get ignoramus to think out loud to see if he could work out that his reason for scum-reading Axel was bad." Which is all kinds of weird. And wrong. And seems to contradict the idea that he was still trying to suss Igno out at that point. Which seemed to me to be entirely the point of the questioning.
I don't like it.
TLDR: I do not follow Eco's claimed mindset with his questioning/read of Ignoramus. It does not seem believable.
Unvote
Vote: Eco
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Called it. Now I gotta find a nice stinky latrine.
What do you mean you "approve of Eco's posts towards igno"? You think it'll lead somewhere important?
I don't think it will lead anywhere at this stage, but at the time I think it was a natural thing to pursue.
I really like Eco's interactions with Lagoon through page 6.
Rhand's recap in 271 is good. Though seeing he had me at lean scum there the flip to me leaning town I asked him about in the future is very interesting.
I think I said twice that I don’t think you and Axel are scum together? Why would you pick that out?
@Grape: you’re a total gut read.
Vote: Rhand
I think Eco is town, and I think that Ter's reaction to Eco in her wall post is also townie. I've had some town pings on Rhand but my movement in his readslist feels anything but natural.
Going to have to rethink all of this though because I just read Axel's wall and I was nodding along agreeing with the breakdown but thinking it all was a good look for Eco until his point that Eco never followed up on the initial Q that I liked. Which is a very good point and somthing I missed.
Haveyou caught up enough to form an opinion on HR?
HR is a town lean. I think he's generally a very easy read. That's all I have to say about him for now. His disliking my posts feels incredibly natural and exactly what I'd expect from town him.
That's...a whole lot of words where you say "I might have done the same" to come to the wrong conclusion. I'm not following up of Igno because my initial assumption being wrong means reading them will take more content, so I'm just leaving them to play the game before I re-evaluate. Since they're not new their read was just bad and it's going to take more data to work out if they're malicious, rather than hounding them to explain why they thought Axel would pretend to be a noob.
This whole game really is revolving around Ecophagy huh.
Guess he's as good a cop target as any.
This is pretty novel for me too: I don't think it's ever happened to me, at least not while town. It makes it hard to pin my reads down because I have strong desire to OMGUS the group scumreading me, and I'd like to think Rhand (and HR to a lesser extent) are just reading me right. I'm kind of tempted to just vote Rhand because his world view aligns with what mine should be if I scumread people who want to kill me, which seems very convenient.
I'd really like to hear where KJ, ignoramus, and Sloth stand.
Called it. Now I gotta find a nice stinky latrine.
What do you mean you "approve of Eco's posts towards igno"? You think it'll lead somewhere important?
I don't think it will lead anywhere at this stage, but at the time I think it was a natural thing to pursue.
I really like Eco's interactions with Lagoon through page 6.
Rhand's recap in 271 is good. Though seeing he had me at lean scum there the flip to me leaning town I asked him about in the future is very interesting.
How on earth did you arrive at me leaning scum on you??
Is Jackrito scumreading half the game?
Condensed, it seems like he’s saying:
(lean) Town: ZDS, Ter, Lagoon, Eco
(lean) Scum: HR, Igno, Grape, Sloth, Rhand, Axel
That’s way too many scumreads (and reads in general for the content that we have).
That's...a whole lot of words where you say "I might have done the same" to come to the wrong conclusion.
I don't know, Eco, if your take away from that is me saying "I might have done the same," a lot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I have reviewed and I will not be voting Eco. I can see town processes behind everything he was doing. And not following up on a trap that didn't bear fruit is definitely not a scum indicative sign. Not sure who I want to vote at this point but it's not Eco, Goomies, or Rhand.
I have reviewed and I will not be voting Eco. I can see town processes behind everything he was doing. And not following up on a trap that didn't bear fruit is definitely not a scum indicative sign. Not sure who I want to vote at this point but it's not Eco, Goomies, or Rhand.
You see how this was - apparently - a one post "trap" that Eco immediately was satisfied with as soon as Igno said: (1) he assumed I was experienced at mafia based on my post count; and (2) gave some very innocuous early reads?
Like, there's no way you should be satisfied with that. Not if you were pursuing a line of genuine inquiry.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
You see how this was - apparently - a one post "trap" that Eco immediately was satisfied with as soon as Igno said: (1) he assumed I was experienced at mafia based on my post count; and (2) gave some very innocuous early reads?
Like, there's no way you should be satisfied with that. Not if you were pursuing a line of genuine inquiry.
Not satisfied with Ignoramus on the whole, but not needing to follow up on that specific question. Two different things.
You see how this was - apparently - a one post "trap" that Eco immediately was satisfied with as soon as Igno said: (1) he assumed I was experienced at mafia based on my post count; and (2) gave some very innocuous early reads?
Like, there's no way you should be satisfied with that. Not if you were pursuing a line of genuine inquiry.
Not satisfied with Ignoramus on the whole, but not needing to follow up on that specific question. Two different things.
Now I don’t understand you. Can you explain to me exactly what you think was going on there? Based on the questions he asked and the timing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Doop. @Ter: Sorry for accidently misgendering you!
Hm. Ok.
I agree with you on Rhand. Though I can empathize with the idea that nothing was really happening (I thought so too) I wasn't a huge fan of his choice/reaction to complain about it instead of doing something about it.
Eco actually called that out. Do you think Eco was bussing there?
I disagree that calling out =/= bussing.
I... never said it wasn't? That was my question to you, actually. You specifically said you don't believe Rhand's "boohoo IDK what to do", and sometime before that, Eco specifically called him out on that exact thread. So, if you think they might be scum together, which you imply in this quote:
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
You think he's chainsawing Eco?
A little of A, a little of B.
I think he's scum because his view of her play feels incredibly warped, and I don't like how uber-protective of Ecophagy he is. It does not look like it's coming from an early Day 1 villager.
Even though I have stronger scumreads on him and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment. I don't really buy the "boo hoo I don't know what to do" song and dance from him. He can do literally anything to throw people in a tizzy and get content going. Right now he can comment on Jackrito's wall, Highroller's vote and defense + TerRaine's response, ZDS' general mannerisms, my claim and reads, and so on.
then you likely think Eco is bussing Rhand with that line of questioning. So I'll ask again, do you think Eco is bussing chainsaw-buddy Rhand, or not?
@Rhand You know if you can't see anything to have opinions on you need to do something like ask questions or vote. Why are you pretending that you don't know how to generate Day 1 reads?
What makes you think I’m pretending anything? I will get Day 1 reads. I just need something to trigger me. So far there’s just nothing.
It's more than you know that sitting around going "man nothing is happening" is a bad way to make things happen. So I was wondering why you aren't asking questions or anything to generate something you can base a read off. I don't think it's scummy, just weird.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Eco. comes right back in #108. Seems to be digging in a little here. Although he appears to let Igno. off the hook for the "post count" explanation of how he knew I was experienced ("I thought it was that..." which I probably wouldn't have done), he goes for the next thing, which is: if Axel's so experienced, would he really do something so newbie-stupid? That is, again, a line I could maybe see myself taking? Maybe not quite so bluntly, if I was really trying to suss him out. I think "would he really do that if he were scum...?" are very WIFOM type-questions. But it's maybe a fair follow-up to evaluate mindset. He also gives him some pointers on forum rules which is neither here nor there.
The next thing that happened was ZDS voting for Eco. in #140. ZDS says that Eco's posts towards Igno. look like "coaching." He particularly doesn't care for the way that Eco. went "I thought it was that" in regards to Igno's explanation of how he knew I was experienced. Which, admittedly, was a little weird.
Eco. responds to that in #141. And this is interesting to me. Because - before this - I would have said, based on the questions he was asking, that Eco was still trying to suss Igno. out. But the response to ZDS here seems to suggest that Eco has already come to a conclusion - that Igno. is Town. Without Igno. even coming back and answering the last question Eco. had asked. (he doesn't say "Igno. Town" but instead that he thinks "his reads are genuine" which is mostly the same thing.)
Igno comes back in #208. Somewhat interestingly (to me) he does not answer the outstanding question that Eco. had to him from back in #108. Which was "if Axel is experienced, would he really do the newbie thing you are suspecting him for?" Igno. answers a lot of other people's questions, but not that one.
Which leads to the next thing: Eco. doesn't care! ZDS drills into Eco. some more in #219. He wants Eco to explain how his questions in #106 and #108 were supposed to help him figure out Ingo. and whether he's gotten any closer.
Eco. responds in #222, and says that he already explained this in #141, but further elaborates. Also seem to say that his read was developed as of Igno's post #107, and post #108 was just "an attempt to get ignoramus to think out loud to see if he could work out that his reason for scum-reading Axel was bad." Which is all kinds of weird. And wrong. And seems to contradict the idea that he was still trying to suss Igno out at that point. Which seemed to me to be entirely the point of the questioning.
This is the chain of events I was referring to. The consistent through line is pretty clear to me. Eco initially soft clears him while asking leading questions to generate content for others to analyze, then the situation changes and his initial questions aren't that relevant because it turned out Igno wasn't in fact a new player and those questions were specific to the assumption that he was new town.
I... never said it wasn't? That was my question to you, actually. You specifically said you don't believe Rhand's "boohoo IDK what to do", and sometime before that, Eco specifically called him out on that exact thread. So, if you think they might be scum together, which you imply in this quote: then you likely think Eco is bussing Rhand with that line of questioning. So I'll ask again, do you think Eco is bussing chainsaw-buddy Rhand, or not? (@Ter, here's the quotes)
Okay, you might be confused, because you're asking me "is Eco bussing my Rhand," and my answer was and still is, "no, they are distancing; it would only be bussing if they were actively trying to get the other voted out."
And the only chainsaw comment I made was Highroller's defense of Ecophagy.
This is the chain of events I was referring to. The consistent through line is pretty clear to me. Eco initially soft clears him while asking leading questions to generate content for others to analyze,
Go back and look at that sequence again, GF. Just read all the posts in order. Ask yourself (1) if you have “soft cleared” someone, as you seem to think, what is post #108 even doing? Is that really what you would write? And then (2) what kind of “content” for others is this supposed to generate?
Did Eco even say that’s what he was trying to do somewhere? I don’t remember that. Or are you assuming that?
then the situation changes and his initial questions aren't that relevant because it turned out Igno wasn't in fact a new player and those questions were specific to the assumption that he was new town.
Can you see that - based on what Eco has said - his follow up question was always irrelevant? He had supposedly already made his read. And that question in 108 was only to try and get Igno to try and think through his line of reasoning to see how poor it was. How helpful!
Seriously, it doesn’t make sense.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If that reason is because Axel cares more for memeing than solving the game then I'd drowning you in a latrine.
Also, wait. Did you actually just shoot me?
My reason for woof-reading Axel is also extremely weird
The reason why is because I feel like them wanting to be helped/"hand-fed" is similar to acting all newbie as woof even when you're experienced.
Rhand IDK about, I notice his reads list has a lot of reads I don't specifically agree with (Quick to put Eco in town, he throws Grape in there despite his general lack of content. I'm up there, he's not usually that quick to read me. Sloth is scummy to me, he's Null to him. I'm not really scumreading any of his scum leans either. Until he explains where those reads came from though, I'm withholding a read. Where he puts people doesn't matter nearly as much as how he arrived at those reads, which he hasn't really explained yet.
Eco/ZDS/Axel are an interesting trio. Eco and ZDS have been asking decent questions, and Axel is participating (he's not specifically standing out to me) but they are all Tricksy Hobbitses who have it in their capacity to act really town and to not be, so I'm not gonna just townread them for Acting Town. Axel is on the lower end of Null because he's not standing out to me, but he also takes a while to rev up IIRC. Him not standing out in the early game isn't particularly exciting. There is that bit where he was cagey about committing to reads after saying that a list was almost exactly the same as his, but that might not be a thing.
Sloth I have a light scumread on. This post (and surrounding questions) caught my eye:
@Sloth: Given you think Rhand is scum, (1)what do you think of the people who voted him when asked?
And (2)in the hypothetical vaccuum world, what do you think the fact that Rhand almost got up to claim range so quickly does for his alignment?
It means I'm very interested in them.
Vaimes/Ter/you, right?
Not much to see there yet.
I don't like sorting Ter out quickly, it's always wrong.
I'm...curious about Vaimes, I'm noticing something, but it may be explained by him saying he wouldn't fluff much this game. The Cop claim is interesting, and potentially feels baity.
I'm still curious about your response to me on the Grape stuff. I believe the reasoning you gave, I'm not too sure you arrive at that reasoning without TMI.
What do you mean "vacuum world"? A world where we dont have any info or any information?
Would probably indicate that he's town and at least one scum jumped in.
However, context matters and it all happened pretty much within minutes of Rhand asking for it.
where he's presented with a decent reason for Rhand to be town (in my hypothetical wacuum world) and he doesn't take it into consideration because he believes he's scum in spite of that. When I asked Ter if that was normal for him, she implied that it was not. I wanna pull on this thread more. I feel like he might not be town.
I'm also lightly scumreading Lagoon because something feels off with him, thought I can't quite figure out what.
I like Ter's pushback to Eco. That's the only thing that stood out there.
Highroller might be town, but I'm not sure. I specifically don't agree with the scumreads on him.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I think I said twice that I don’t think you and Axel are scum together? Why would you pick that out?
@Grape: you’re a total gut read.
I mean, some of us have to having a bad game because we can't all be right. Why do you think mafia-Rhand would drop a totally opposite world view to push you when he could easily have made something less controversial?
@Rhand: Why did you choose to vote gooLagoon over TerRaine and Jackrito who already have votes on and are (at least marginally) more realistic wagons?
I don’t really have a serious answer. If he’s scum, he’ll do what he thinks is best for his team. If he’s town, lol shrug we’ll work it out eventually I guess.
I don’t really have a serious answer. If he’s scum, he’ll do what he thinks is best for his team. If he’s town, lol shrug we’ll work it out eventually I guess. [/quote]
Fair enough. After I posted I thought "What if it's because Rhand knows Eco is town, so he's setting up for D2 pushing the anti-Eco squad after I get executed?" and now I am paranoid.
Fair enough. After I posted I thought "What if it's because Rhand knows Eco is town, so he's setting up for D2 pushing the anti-Eco squad after I get executed?" and now I am paranoid.
Eco is my weakest town read so I'm not willing to fight over it because I could clearly be wrong I think you are all better then me and in the past I have shown I'm not the best judge of character. In situations like this it is better to side with the people you townread more to try and get a group dynamic going.
Agree with Goo here. In fact KJ can you refresh my memory and point to the post with the call out?
That's his name sir. ********, Major ********!
Ecophagy (3): Grapefruit21, ZeDorkSlipeur, TerRaine
Rhand (2): Slothful, gooLagoon
Highroller (2): Axelrod, Jackrito
Jackrito (1): Ecophagy
Axelrod (1): ignoramus
TerRaine (1): Highroller
gooLagoon (1): Rhand
Not Voting (1): Killjoy
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to eject!
Day 1 deadline is Saturday, February 6th, at 2:00pm MST
Please inform me if there are any errors in votecounts.
Additionally, if you have a question for me, the most consistent way to quickly get my attention is to ping me on Discord.
Because he’s my strongest read. I wasn’t looking at wagons when I voted. And I don’t care at this point really.
You obviously, I am voting you. Are you saying I should artificially push Axel in a better category because I am scum reading you?
I know you’re better than thinking townclearing people because they don’t match an early scumread is what I should be doing.
Naturally, if you’re right and I am scum, Axelrod is unlikely to be my partner, so he should by definition be a townread. But you don’t have him as a townread right now.
You can always hypothetically move him down later if I flip town.
It is currently based on Highroller doing nothing that feels even a little Town. He's barely started, so, it could just be that, but the few posts he does have don't impress. I don't like the Terraine vote. I don't like the reaction to Vaimes' Cop claim. And since then he's just peace'd out.
I [i]commit[/i] to nothing. I don't even do lists like that this early, but I read that one, and on reflection, thought that it pretty much was actually in accordance with my worldview to this point. So I thought I would say so. I'm more about general groupings than exact placements anyway. Ignoramus is in the "bottom" group, with HR, Eco. and Rhand right now.
I thought I was pretty much already down there, wasn't I?
I have many problems with this post. I imagine I will elaborate later.
I'm not sure I understand this question. You mean Vaimes readlist that I coppied? I thought I was kind of in the middle of his "reads."
[/quote]
List tags are malformed.
One way Eco could be lying is if he wants to paint himself as a rational townie who does everything for a reason. This is a great way to be townread by exploiting human bias. It also fits with goo's analysis of him as very careful.
The issue with this argument is it cannot be proven or disproven, and is born from the sum of my own bias against Eco and the flabbergastingness of the situation. I can only make sense of things by being paranoid and it's frustrating.
• Possible bussing aside, goo is even more confirmed town if Eco is scum, for bringing up the entire issue above.
I don't mind the line about not knowing how to townread Day 1 Axel, I interpret it as "I don't like him but that's always the case Day 1". I have the same issue so I can relate.
I agree with Rhand, Axel and goo are unlikely to be woof-woof.
• Jack being "consensusy" is usual for him and is NAI. Not that I find his reads/leans particularly consensusy, other than the reasons given for them.
• Highroller having a warped view of others' play is completely par with the course for him. It's at most NAI.
• I am a treasure hunter looking for a type of gold named "Clarity". I ask questions to lay my doubts in the open and get the questionee to reveal their mindset. I do not expect anyone to slip up, nor do I expect to be wowed, and I (try to) drop points once they've been clarified enough.
I am intentionally getting away from the "prodding until something is revealed" method, it keeps failing me. I keep prodding Eco because I keep not getting him.
• Ter's wall is superficial at times but not to the extent of being Reads Instead of Content. By itself it's NAI, the fact she did it at all is a little +town.
I asked about the rustiness because I can't see myself giving advice while rusty — but I did post a lot about how to play or against bad-on-principle arguments in my one post-hiatus scum game.
Granted, everyone's different and you seemed to have a much softer hiatus than mine, where you still hung around and spectated games. So... it's just another thing that bugs me but doesn't prove anything.
You were caught in Snow White for making up reads while blatantly not reading the thread.
Why are you phrasing this like Sloth knows Rhand's alignment?
Does that include the bit about his naked vote on Jackrito with no follow-up being a serious vote meant to ellicit a reaction in Jack?
I sit in my helicopter while they both drown in the null swamp, both slowly rising to the surface where the town leans are, but not there yet. Goo rises faster than Ter, whose foot got momentarily stuck in some plants early on.
———
I can finally pinpoint what bothers me so much with Ecophagy. It's the fact I used (pre-hiatus) to play exactly like this as scum. I was more forward than he is because I like to take the lead, but it would have been the only obvious difference. I can literally see my old scum self in his posts, and the positive comments Eco is getting from some players are the same comments I used to get all the time.
Call it a soul read, but with more self-doubt. It's flabbergasting. However, it's also unlikely Eco is lying when it would be so much easier to say it was a joke at the time and shifted into a serious vote.
So I guess it would be cool if you wanted to talk about TerRaine and how they're reading you, but it's not really as interesting a line of discussion as I'd initially thought.
Actual bringing up Snow White though eases my mind a bit on ZDS though because he does have reasons which I expect him to have if town.
I get the idea that you're looking at me being a person who is ultra-reasonable and rational (malciously, in your mind) and that you're seeing shades of your own scum game. But really, I have a track record of being relentlessly reasonable and analytical across both alignments so saying "Eco would be a rational-townie-like-scum" is both 100% correct and virtually useless.
If I was joke-voting Jackrito I'd have just said so. You're obviously finding my play hard to parse (and maybe I'm more rusty than I've thought and have forgtotten how to interact properly) but it's clear to me that this confusion is leading you to force my square peg into the round hole of a scum read rather than give yourself time to actually work out what I'm doing. I don't really understand why you're so insistent on forcing a read on me right now other than because it bothers you.
Your very last post before subbing out is what nailed you as scum.
That is all wrong, but not the point of this.
Eco. comes in at post #106. Now, this post I can read in two different ways. One is Eco. trying to lay a trap of some kind of Igno. (by asking him how he knew that I was experienced) and the other is Eco. trying to instigate something, by pointing out that Killjoy appeared to agree with this worldview.
The first interpretation is the kind of thing I might do. When I'm trying to suss out someone who has made a remark that catches my eye. Give them a little rope and see if they will hang themselves with it. Like, how did he know I was experienced....etc. Might be nothing, but see what he says.
The second remark I like a lot less. I've never been much of one for "hey, so-and-so is saying this about player X, which you seem to agree with, how do you feel about so-and-so," type remarks. They feel like leading questions. Like Eco. is being the gadfly on the wall trying to stir up trouble.
Anyway, the questions were asked. Igno responds in #107. He knew I was experienced because of my post count. He has some other light reads.
Eco. comes right back in #108. Seems to be digging in a little here. Although he appears to let Igno. off the hook for the "post count" explanation of how he knew I was experienced ("I thought it was that..." which I probably wouldn't have done), he goes for the next thing, which is: if Axel's so experienced, would he really do something so newbie-stupid? That is, again, a line I could maybe see myself taking? Maybe not quite so bluntly, if I was really trying to suss him out. I think "would he really do that if he were scum...?" are very WIFOM type-questions. But it's maybe a fair follow-up to evaluate mindset. He also gives him some pointers on forum rules which is neither here nor there.
The next thing that happened was ZDS voting for Eco. in #140. ZDS says that Eco's posts towards Igno. look like "coaching." He particularly doesn't care for the way that Eco. went "I thought it was that" in regards to Igno's explanation of how he knew I was experienced. Which, admittedly, was a little weird.
Eco. responds to that in #141. And this is interesting to me. Because - before this - I would have said, based on the questions he was asking, that Eco was still trying to suss Igno. out. But the response to ZDS here seems to suggest that Eco has already come to a conclusion - that Igno. is Town. Without Igno. even coming back and answering the last question Eco. had asked. (he doesn't say "Igno. Town" but instead that he thinks "his reads are genuine" which is mostly the same thing.)
Eco. logic here is also kind of bad, because he seems to think that Igno's answer to the question "how did you know he was experienced" was logical and reasonable, when it really wasn't. He seems to suggest that if Igno had said something along the lines of "oh, I didn't know if Axelrod was actually experienced, I was just assuming it," then that would have looked bad for Igno. Except, in what world is scum-Igno ever giving that response? Eco. further goes on to explain why he's "coaching" which is mainly to help a new/inexperienced player out, and hopefully not scare them/make them defensive before they've even started.
Terraine gets involved here, and I kind of like her angle. She basically asks "why would you assume Ingo. is a new player? Why not just ask them?
Eco.'s response to that is to say he remembered that Rhand had said pre-game he was bringing a recruit, and also that Igno's first few posts seemed "newbish." He says if Igno. comes back and clarifies that he isn't actually new, then the context for his read (the town one, presumably) changes.
Rhand then clarifies that Igno isn't a new player. And Eco goes "whoops." Says this doesn't "invalidate" his read, but it's less telling.
Igno comes back in #208. Somewhat interestingly (to me) he does not answer the outstanding question that Eco. had to him from back in #108. Which was "if Axel is experienced, would he really do the newbie thing you are suspecting him for?" Igno. answers a lot of other people's questions, but not that one.
Which leads to the next thing: Eco. doesn't care! ZDS drills into Eco. some more in #219. He wants Eco to explain how his questions in #106 and #108 were supposed to help him figure out Ingo. and whether he's gotten any closer.
Eco. responds in #222, and says that he already explained this in #141, but further elaborates. Also seem to say that his read was developed as of Igno's post #107, and post #108 was just "an attempt to get ignoramus to think out loud to see if he could work out that his reason for scum-reading Axel was bad." Which is all kinds of weird. And wrong. And seems to contradict the idea that he was still trying to suss Igno out at that point. Which seemed to me to be entirely the point of the questioning.
I don't like it.
TLDR: I do not follow Eco's claimed mindset with his questioning/read of Ignoramus. It does not seem believable.
Unvote
Vote: Eco
I don't think it will lead anywhere at this stage, but at the time I think it was a natural thing to pursue.
I really like Eco's interactions with Lagoon through page 6.
Rhand's recap in 271 is good. Though seeing he had me at lean scum there the flip to me leaning town I asked him about in the future is very interesting.
Guess he's as good a cop target as any.
Vote: Rhand
I think Eco is town, and I think that Ter's reaction to Eco in her wall post is also townie. I've had some town pings on Rhand but my movement in his readslist feels anything but natural.
Going to have to rethink all of this though because I just read Axel's wall and I was nodding along agreeing with the breakdown but thinking it all was a good look for Eco until his point that Eco never followed up on the initial Q that I liked. Which is a very good point and somthing I missed.
Haveyou caught up enough to form an opinion on HR?
Ecophagy (3): ZeDorkSlipeur, TerRaine, Axelrod
Rhand (3): Slothful, gooLagoon, Grapefruit21
Highroller (1): Jackrito
Jackrito (1): Ecophagy
Axelrod (1): ignoramus
TerRaine (1): Highroller
gooLagoon (1): Rhand
Not Voting (1): Killjoy
-
According to my reads, this is a very sexy votal.
HR is a town lean. I think he's generally a very easy read. That's all I have to say about him for now. His disliking my posts feels incredibly natural and exactly what I'd expect from town him.
This is pretty novel for me too: I don't think it's ever happened to me, at least not while town. It makes it hard to pin my reads down because I have strong desire to OMGUS the group scumreading me, and I'd like to think Rhand (and HR to a lesser extent) are just reading me right. I'm kind of tempted to just vote Rhand because his world view aligns with what mine should be if I scumread people who want to kill me, which seems very convenient.
I'd really like to hear where KJ, ignoramus, and Sloth stand.
How on earth did you arrive at me leaning scum on you??
Unvote
Like, there's no way you should be satisfied with that. Not if you were pursuing a line of genuine inquiry.
Not satisfied with Ignoramus on the whole, but not needing to follow up on that specific question. Two different things.
I might have oversold the slow pace here lol
This is the chain of events I was referring to. The consistent through line is pretty clear to me. Eco initially soft clears him while asking leading questions to generate content for others to analyze, then the situation changes and his initial questions aren't that relevant because it turned out Igno wasn't in fact a new player and those questions were specific to the assumption that he was new town.
And the only chainsaw comment I made was Highroller's defense of Ecophagy.
Did Eco even say that’s what he was trying to do somewhere? I don’t remember that. Or are you assuming that?
Can you see that - based on what Eco has said - his follow up question was always irrelevant? He had supposedly already made his read. And that question in 108 was only to try and get Igno to try and think through his line of reasoning to see how poor it was. How helpful!
Seriously, it doesn’t make sense.
Rhand IDK about, I notice his reads list has a lot of reads I don't specifically agree with (Quick to put Eco in town, he throws Grape in there despite his general lack of content. I'm up there, he's not usually that quick to read me. Sloth is scummy to me, he's Null to him. I'm not really scumreading any of his scum leans either. Until he explains where those reads came from though, I'm withholding a read. Where he puts people doesn't matter nearly as much as how he arrived at those reads, which he hasn't really explained yet.
Eco/ZDS/Axel are an interesting trio. Eco and ZDS have been asking decent questions, and Axel is participating (he's not specifically standing out to me) but they are all Tricksy Hobbitses who have it in their capacity to act really town and to not be, so I'm not gonna just townread them for Acting Town. Axel is on the lower end of Null because he's not standing out to me, but he also takes a while to rev up IIRC. Him not standing out in the early game isn't particularly exciting. There is that bit where he was cagey about committing to reads after saying that a list was almost exactly the same as his, but that might not be a thing.
Sloth I have a light scumread on. This post (and surrounding questions) caught my eye: where he's presented with a decent reason for Rhand to be town (in my hypothetical wacuum world) and he doesn't take it into consideration because he believes he's scum in spite of that. When I asked Ter if that was normal for him, she implied that it was not. I wanna pull on this thread more. I feel like he might not be town.
I'm also lightly scumreading Lagoon because something feels off with him, thought I can't quite figure out what.
I like Ter's pushback to Eco. That's the only thing that stood out there.
Highroller might be town, but I'm not sure. I specifically don't agree with the scumreads on him.
Townie
Ingo
Town Seeming
Eco
ZDS
Ter
Upper Null
Jack
Grape
Highroller
Lower Null
Rhand
Axel
Scumish
Lagoon
Scum
Sloth