Grape: if ZDS is scum for his push on Eco, then Ter is likely up there too for you.
Which of those two is scummier and why?
I've answered that very recently but basically Ter seemed really townie in her interaction with Eco and softened her stance on him. ZDS's entire play makes sense as trying to make anything but a Rhand flip happen. Ter's doesn't.
ZDS's game make sense as someone who wants to yeet Eco > Axel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rhand. There's a difference between that and "someone who wants to stop a rhand yeet."
Something what you should know about me: someone's I don't check the have to see if a questions been asked before I ask it, if a question pops in my head.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Something what you should know about me: someone's I don't check the have to see if a questions been asked before I ask it, if a question pops in my head.
I disagree with that stance grape.
That puts you in company with...everyone else who has offered an opinion on it. And to be honest given HR's play I'm not really interested in fighting for my beliefs at the moment when there is a solid path of least resistance. I'm just not going to do the work for it.
@Sloth that is functionally identical the world I'm describing except if he was town and that was his preference he should have embraced the Jack pressure (saving a town read>>>than foolhardily pushing a scum read). Things make much more sense if his motivation was to protect Rhand than to push Eco/Axel.
b) Do you see sense in someone who is Town going "Guess Ill just die" when someone bluffs a red check?
a) agreed but we don't know the full set up.
b) It's not optimal play but yeah I've seen it happen before. At least in a short time horizon. If the game continued for two weeks and HR did nothing then the alarm bells would be at 10 instead of like 6.
Because anything I've said in this game - or any other game, for that matter - is as ridiculous as your assertion that I, as a mafia, with access to a 100%-guaranteed-to-work nightkill, decided to use that ability on Igno, a lurker whom many were suspicious of, and who probably would taken up a shot of a town role ability such as an inspector or vig in order to flip, thereby exclusively benefiting the town and providing no strategic benefit to the mafia.
Because anything I've said in this game - or any other game, for that matter - is as ridiculous as your assertion that I, as a mafia, with access to a 100%-guaranteed-to-work nightkill, decided to use that ability on Igno, a lurker whom many were suspicious of, and who probably would taken up a shot of a town role ability such as an inspector or vig in order to flip, thereby exclusively benefiting the town and providing no strategic benefit to the mafia.
As opposed to anyone else at all.
A+ genius argument, keep up the good work.
Lol that quote wasn't even directed at you, chief.
Since you bring it up there WAS a strategic benefit to killing igno if you believed Vaimes' cop claim.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
1. Some GD reads from you Sloth. Also the reasoning behind the original Rhand vote you were so tight lipped about.
2. Vaimes anyone to clear?
3. Since no one seemed to be picking up on my 275/6 issue I’ll just say it now
In 275/6, Axel talks about Vaimes being Town +. He says he didn’t/doesnt believe the claim and calls it a gambit.
Why if you are Town Axel would you draw attention to the gambit of someone else you feel is Town? It’s like yelling out “OH I SEE HE’S GOING TO FAKE TO THE LEFT AND THEN GO RIGHT!!” in front of the other team before a play.
Town doesn’t go out of their way, unprompted, to **** over other town players play/gambits.
Hmmm.
Ter might be town. She's scumreading antitown behavior genuinely.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Well, I was going to start with a closer look at Highroller. But now when I'm trying to pull up his posts by clicking on "replies" his name is not appearing. This is the same thing that happened before when I was trying to find Ingo's posts. Now Igno's name is there though. Is this happening to anyone else?
It's much more of a pain without that feature, for me at least.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
So, Highroller did in fact claim his movie in his first post, though I missed it completely. This is pretty much NAI for Highroller I guess. I don't see the point in doing it. Obviously it wasn't a role-claim, just a movie claim. But it's kind of on brand for him, and something he might feel obligated to do if Mafia.
It does bring back the issue of themed movies, a bit. But if HR is Mafia, and the Mafia is all anti-feelgood movies (and Robocop isn't anti-feelgood, like, you feel good at the end), then they clearly had no issues/fear claiming their true films. Which seems kind of wrong. Maybe the Mafia just missed that about themselves? And the Mod. gave no safe claims? Is that even possible? Dunno. Seems unlikely. I'm putting it at NAI.
His first serious vote was for TerRaine, for what he felt was a bad attack on Eco. This is kind of whatever. His basis seems to be that TerRaine's pressure/attack wasn't justified by what Eco had done so far. Which is fairly weak, but all attacks are weak this early. HR's attack is "weak" in the same way. He also seems to express unreserved belief in Vaimes' Cop claim. Which, I don't know, maybe he did believe it, or felt like he should say he believed it.
He's not posting very much, and not paying close attention to the thread (seems to think that more people are voting for the "claimed Cop" than there are.)
It is also true that during this period of time HR is more heavily invested in the other game he is playing (Realm of Elderlings) which is close to the end, which can explain his lack of activity to some extant.
On the flip side, this is more or less all Rhand had to say about HR:
Quote from Rhand »
Highroller seems to go a bit too hard at Terraine. But it’s Highroller, that’s NAI for him.
Which is pretty neutral.
HR seems to be confused how I could both (1) disbelieve Vaimes' Cop claim, and (2) think it made him more likely Town. I feel like that is pretty obvious even beyond what I said at the time, but maybe others disagree? I don't get his mindset here. It's worth pointing out that Rhand voted for Vaimes and HR doesn't comment on that at all until later when directly asked.
Quote from HR »
Obviously the fact that he's voting for an uncounterclaimed cop bothers me.
Then he does go on to have have a few more things to say about Rhand, though he misreads Rhand's post where Rhand is quoting Jack's reads as if they were Rhand's own reads. Rhand is now in his "bottom four," along with Ter, Jack, and Me. Maybe notably, Rhand (and me) are in the "Bronze" positions here, so, relatively safe places to put a scum-buddy.
As we're approaching end of day, I have to try and avoid confirmation bias here. It's easy to look at the post where HR says, on the one hand (1) I want Rhand to claim - but says nothing more about Rhand; and yet (2) in the same post makes all his arguments against Jack and votes for Jack, as an attempt to protect his scum-buddy. But there is also the practical side of it, and I imagine I've asked people to claim who I wasn't especially interested in lynching, just because others were and to try and move the game forward. At that moment, Rhand had 5 votes, so, squarely in claiming range, and I think we were maybe(?) 12 hours from the deadline? So, I might give him a pass on that.
Rhand claims, and HR's reaction is to ask if this is a normal role for a 12 person game on this site? I get that HR was away from Mafia for a long time, but he was one of the OG players here, so that ask just seems weird to me. I'm trying to see if the fact that HR is an (alleged) vig. with unstoppable kill factors here. Rhand's role certainly doesn't fit with HR's. What is the point of a BP vest if HR can just shoot right through it? Yes, Rhand's vest can still prevent "scum" kills, so there's a world where it could make a kind of sense to HR, but it almost seems like this claim should have aroused his suspicions more. I would say the lack of any kind of comment other than this one is slightly suspicious.
HR doesn't say anything else about Rhand for the rest of the day. Makes one more post where he's still arguing for Jack, and then hammers with 2 minutes to the deadline, just saying "I won't let it go No Lynch."
This is a reasonable position to take, and it would look better, but for the fact that Killjoy and myself were right there, so the chances of it going No Lynch were less.
Honestly, I feel like the person who made that Lynch happen was Jack. Eco. and Rhand were pretty neck and neck in the last 90 minutes of the day. His switch to Rhand made Rhand the default choice. He doesn't do that, maybe we don't get a lynch at all.
Bottom line on this D1 is that there were no smoking guns for HR here. He lurked (but was more active in his other more pressing game). He took like one strong position (TerRaine = scum). He expressed mild to zero suspicion on Rhand and was voting elsewhere until the last minute, but did get there at the end when arguably, he did not have to and could have tried for a No Lynch. Perhaps significantly, there is nothing here I feel he couldn't have done as scum.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I am still just like, super puzzled by Eco being dead today. He was such a top target for a mis-yeet (sorry to people who are offended by use of that other word. I have to consciously try to not use it). And it had to be a direct kill on Eco. because of the ascetic thing. It couldn't have been a kill that was somehow re-directed to him. Were scum just that afraid of him? Eco.'s top non-Rhand scum-read at the end of the day was TerRaine. Or, were they going for the reverse psychology play of "kill him to make the Town think that his reads were good...." I guess they could also be going for the "do something that makes no sense and cause confusion" play.
Eco. was also, incidentally, town-leaning Highroller. Which would tend to go against scum-team including HR wanting him dead, I think. Maybe this is not a productive line of thought.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
D2 is when nothing HR posts makes any sense at all.
Vaimes claims his Guilty on HR at #759.
HR posts at #816. Claims he killed Igno. Also seems confused about Vaimes' Cop check. He's asking "are you claiming an actual Cop check?" As though there might be some doubt about what Vaimes said. This seems like playing dumb to me. I'm trying to imagine a Town HR seeing this, and being genuinely confused: Why is he saying he has a "redcheck" on me? What is a redcheck? Is he saying I'm scum? But I'm not scum, that makes no sense!
That seems a bit far-fetched, but even if that was what he was thinking, one would think he would be a bit more proactive in following it up. He doesn't appear very concerned by this development. Whereas, if someone was claiming they had a guilty on me, I imagine I would be all over them, one way or the other.
Vaimes doubles down on the gambit in his reply, saying that, yes, he has a very definite guilty result on HR.
HR's response, again, is quite passive. He just says he's PMing Cantrip with a question. Apparently this question was "what kind of notice would Vaimes get if he was re-directed away from HR?" Basically, "could Vaimes have been re-directed, gotten a "guilty" result on the person he was re-directed to, but not be informed that he was re-directed, so he believes his result came from the person he originally targeted". Which is basically a form of bastard modding. He claims he got a "vague" response to this question from the Mod. Note that this interaction would require the scum to be re-directing Vaimes to one of themselves to get the guilty result, and also for them to know that the target is not informed of this re-direction so they get false information.
HR also explains his choice of Igno (who was not one of his top mafia targets yesterday) by quoting Vaimes' post where Vaimes says we really need to solve Igno. This makes no sense for two reasons, of course. One is that, given Vaimes' Cop claim, it seems like there would be a rather high possibility of Vaimes himself targeting Igno last night. And by shooting Igno, HR would waste that Cop shot. Why do that? Also, why are you even using Vaimes' opinion to base your choice of target on at all, as opposed to, you know, your own opinion? You have a high opinion of your own opinions. Seems very wrong for you to be so deferential in this way.
HR then announces he is ready for death.
Really?
Town-you is just folding like a house of cards in the face of this completely wrong alleged Cop result? You're not even going to try and fight it? You just said you were (supposedly) contemplating re-direction scenarios, and the Mod. did NOT rule them out, but you're not going to argue for that? Just going to roll over and die. You're also, incidentally, not making the argument that Vaimes is scum here, or that - when you flip Town - we should immediately yeet him. You just say "I am not voting an un-counterclaimed Cop." As though that makes him credible? When you know his result is 100% wrong. No. This just makes zero sense at all. Whereas, as caught scum, it does make some sense. You're burned, you know you're not likely getting out of it. No point in wasting more words and potentially giving away more info. Of the two scenarios, that one seems much more consistent.
TerRaine has already pointed out some more schizophrenic logic. In that, when asked why he would target the person Vaimes said needed solving he says (1) my reads have been so bad lately I thought I'd just defer; and also (2) I thought Vaimes had rescinded the Cop claim at the end of the day. Fake-claiming Cop is something you've already called out as anti-town behavior, but - now that you are supposedly living in this world where Vaimes did that - you are still going to follow his lead? How does that make sense at all?
When Vaimes does finally rescind the Cop claim, HR does not go after him for lying. Just says "what the hell is wrong with you," and says "now" he'll re-read the thread since there might actually be a point. A Townie HR should, of course, be doing that anyway. Even if you were going to die, you can leave us your thoughts/reads and actually still help to win the game. Scum HR only has incentive to keep posting as long as he thinks there's still a chance to live.
I'm not sure there's a world where HR can explain away all this as just normal Town behavior, when the scum behavior matches so much better.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Well, a re-direct has two targets, right? Attempts to target Eco. Should have failed.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Seems more a mod question but to me "Redirect" is the action that targets Player A makes them target Player B. Since kill actions negate Ascetic Player B would die as Player A's action is the one targeting them
I fully admit I've only modded one game that I made wit Sloth. We had a randomizer but as the name implies...they would hit a person with their ability and the target as redirected at random
I think I've also decided it makes no sense for the Town to have two kills that can't be messed with. Eco. couldn't be role-blocked or redirected or jailed or anything that didn't kill him. HR is claiming strongman.
Nah.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
• In reaction to my (lack of) wagon: I was expecting to get vigged, or if not then turbo-wagonned into oblivion. It seems like only Grape thinks like I do, which is somewhat worrying: assuming my townread of Grape is correct, then why aren't the scum interested in me? Or is it that they are not interested in me yet?
To answer whether scum-I could have done what I did Day 1, yes I could have (if I was in a playful mood and not that interested in winning the game). This is moot since I'm town but in the abstract Grape is right, and in any case I should not be alive in FloF if we get to that point.
That being said, Grape, I would like to remind you I started going after Eco long before Rhand was in any danger. So "[my] motivation was [more] to protect Rhand than to push Eco/Axel" does not make sense.
• To answer Killjoy: Three players stuck to the Eco wagon to the bitter end: good old me, and Ter and Axel. Both Ter and Axel were "scumread" by Rhand, both of them for crappy reasons (Ter for having different reads than Rhand, Axel for agreeing with Goo's reads) that could easily be made-up.
If there is a woof between the two of them (which is not certain), then based on Rhand's posts it would be Ter. Rhand was mainly going after Goo, and had it worked he had already sowed the seeds to chainflush Axel. That being said if we end up in a situation where the POE is between Axel and Ter I advise against relying on such wine.
• Ter, why did you vote KJ in 959 when in 955 you double-down on HR being obvscum?
• Highroller acting like he was intentionally letting himself die to "reveal that [Goo] was lying" is laughable.
Highroller, what happened to your scumread on Ter? Also, are you still townreading Goo after this?
• I like Axel's big posts, they are like watching the 8 hours 3 movies 48 frames-per-second high budget version of my own short-story reads.
By the way Axel, have you considered going off the beaten path and doing analyses of players who aren't already getting wagonned?
• Current reads (haven't gotten around to rereading yet, I will on Saturday regardless of the Day still being on):
Townreads as well but not enough to escape the POE
6. Killjoy, 8. TerRaine
Scum
4. Highroller
Had Eco not died I would probably be going after him in addition to HR, but since he's dead I don't have a non-HR scumread yet.
Sloth and Axel went up from yesterDay for their posts toDay, KJ went slightly down for insisting there had to be scum in the Eco wagon and apparently relying on me to tell him who (maybe he's trying to figure me out, but how is my stance on Axel/Ter going to help him do that?).
[quote from="ZeDorkSlipeur »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/820307-feelgood-80s-movie-mafia-day-2-aces-and-aliens?comment=1024"]Three players stuck to the Eco wagon to the bitter end: good old me, and Ter and Axel./quote]Well, in fairness to me, Highroller beat me to the hammer by literally two seconds. And I already said I would move the vote. I was not "sticking on Eco." until the bitter end.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Three players stuck to the Eco wagon to the bitter end: good old me, and Ter and Axel.
Well, in fairness to me, Highroller beat me to the hammer by literally two seconds. And I already said I would move the vote. I was not "sticking on Eco." until the bitter end.
Fixing quotes.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Pressure vote. I am willing to vote either of them. I prefer HR actually but I didn't want to push him into hammer territory before everyone showed and had their say.
Which I think everyone has now.
....Vaimes wants to pursue roads in which he considers HR as Town. I disagree and would like to say bye bye.
By the way Axel, have you considered going off the beaten path and doing analyses of players who aren't already getting wagonned?
Oh sure. If the day goes on, I imagine I'll get around to everyone. Starting on HR seemed the thing to do though.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
People I feel no need to re-read because I'm pretty sure at this time they are Town:
Vaimes (should I be saying Goo? I'd rather not)
Jack
Killjoy
Apparently Killjoy is controversial. I don't get why, but who knows, maybe this will be another epic bad read from me. I don't have those too often.
The Rest:
TerRaine
Grapefruit
Sloth
ZDS
And our last Mafia could theoretically be anyone in here.
I like how TerRaine is pushing things, though I will acknowledge that some of her reads are bad and Eco certainly didn't like her. She would probably be the top candidate for scum under the "Scum shot because they were worried about Eco's reads" theory, but I'm not sure I really hold to that theory.
Grape has been largely invisible to me this game. That's not necessarily on him, but I haven't noticed anything he's done. When he made a post suggesting he ought to get some credit for the Rhand lynch, my immediate reaction was, huh? Like, I guess you did vote Rhand, but I don't remember more about it. And seems like you were kind of gone for the end of the day.
Sloth also voted Rhand, and even voted first as he so proudly announced. But it was a super weak vote and Sloth did zip else D1. Feels like he has been a bit better today, but then again, he'd have to step up if he were scum after that D1.
ZDS is an enigma to me. Posts infrequently, but with reasonable logic when he does. Obviously wrong on Eco (but me too). Nothing that seems outside his scum range, but this is why we give a closer look.
This very roughly is where I'm currently at.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Yeah ZDS I am trying to figure you out. I was hoping for more than just two players though, like a whole worldview post because at the moment your reads could go any way they felt like.
Vaimes made that same argument "a bunch of townies were perfectly happy to kill Eco, but couldn't save Rhand (here). You appear to be townreading him though. What's the deal there?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I feel like "Feelgood movie" is just code for "movie Cantrip enjoyed from the 80s" instead of some commentary about the content/story of the movie.
Could be. Though if HR is scum it can't be denied that the two dead scum are violent R-rated movies whereas the two dead Town are Top Gun and E.T.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Kind of like Elder Statesman. He was here at the very beginning of the forum.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Honestly, I feel like the person who made that Lynch happen was Jack. Eco. and Rhand were pretty neck and neck in the last 90 minutes of the day. His switch to Rhand made Rhand the default choice. He doesn't do that, maybe we don't get a lynch at all.
While I do think Jack is town, I don't agree here. I know I was gonna switch to Rhand in favor of a no lynch. Jack was probably necessary for the lynch, but I'm not entirely sure he caused it.
My thing is, how does that happen? Eco had a lot of support, how do we default to Rhand? My guess is there was someone already on the Eco wagon that couldn't push onto it. I mean, that's gotta be the case. Then if HR is scum he went to Jack since there was already a scum on the Eco wagon.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
He expressed mild to zero suspicion on Rhand and was voting elsewhere until the last minute, but did get there at the end when arguably, he did not have to and could have tried for a No Lynch. Perhaps significantly, there is nothing here I feel he couldn't have done as scum.
To the bolded, he was at L-2 and you and I were saying we were going to switch to avoid a no lynch. I'm not sure he had a choice.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Axelrod's post on Highroller has convinced me that entertaining town!Highroller worlds will not be necessary.
But really, after last game, I'm trying not to be shocked when people who absolutely shoud flip red do not flip red.
Separate thought, but I don't think a team with TerRaine on it shoots Ecophagy. He was in a position where he was easily discreditable, and they're throwing away a free misyeet. I was certainly gonna push him toDay after I had my fun with Highroller.
I guess what I really want is to force Highroller to have opinions about what happened Day 1 and how he feels about the rest of the players now. He's not voting anyone.
I don't buy his "abysmal record" in finding mafia, because of his four scumreads, one of them literally just flipped scum. Just because he didn't vote for him doesn't mean he has bad reads.
This is probably just his going into antispew mode but it doesn't hurt to ask. I'm in no rush.
Oh and Axelrod made an excellent point about both of the vigilante kills being unstoppable [although Ecophagy's vigshot would be thwarted by protection, Ecophagy himself couldn't be blocked or redirected].
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I've answered that very recently but basically Ter seemed really townie in her interaction with Eco and softened her stance on him. ZDS's entire play makes sense as trying to make anything but a Rhand flip happen. Ter's doesn't.
I disagree with that stance grape.
a) two town vigs seems unbalanced.
b) Do you see sense in someone who is Town going "Guess Ill just die" when someone bluffs a red check?
That puts you in company with...everyone else who has offered an opinion on it. And to be honest given HR's play I'm not really interested in fighting for my beliefs at the moment when there is a solid path of least resistance. I'm just not going to do the work for it.
@Sloth that is functionally identical the world I'm describing except if he was town and that was his preference he should have embraced the Jack pressure (saving a town read>>>than foolhardily pushing a scum read). Things make much more sense if his motivation was to protect Rhand than to push Eco/Axel.
a) agreed but we don't know the full set up.
b) It's not optimal play but yeah I've seen it happen before. At least in a short time horizon. If the game continued for two weeks and HR did nothing then the alarm bells would be at 10 instead of like 6.
Because anything I've said in this game - or any other game, for that matter - is as ridiculous as your assertion that I, as a mafia, with access to a 100%-guaranteed-to-work nightkill, decided to use that ability on Igno, a lurker whom many were suspicious of, and who probably would taken up a shot of a town role ability such as an inspector or vig in order to flip, thereby exclusively benefiting the town and providing no strategic benefit to the mafia.
As opposed to anyone else at all.
A+ genius argument, keep up the good work.
Yeah, it's almost as though I'm town. Weird, right?
Highroller, can I get an updated state of the game from your POV?
Lol that quote wasn't even directed at you, chief.
Since you bring it up there WAS a strategic benefit to killing igno if you believed Vaimes' cop claim.
Ter might be town. She's scumreading antitown behavior genuinely.
Maybe I'll make a wagon post tomorrow
It's much more of a pain without that feature, for me at least.
It does bring back the issue of themed movies, a bit. But if HR is Mafia, and the Mafia is all anti-feelgood movies (and Robocop isn't anti-feelgood, like, you feel good at the end), then they clearly had no issues/fear claiming their true films. Which seems kind of wrong. Maybe the Mafia just missed that about themselves? And the Mod. gave no safe claims? Is that even possible? Dunno. Seems unlikely. I'm putting it at NAI.
His first serious vote was for TerRaine, for what he felt was a bad attack on Eco. This is kind of whatever. His basis seems to be that TerRaine's pressure/attack wasn't justified by what Eco had done so far. Which is fairly weak, but all attacks are weak this early. HR's attack is "weak" in the same way. He also seems to express unreserved belief in Vaimes' Cop claim. Which, I don't know, maybe he did believe it, or felt like he should say he believed it.
He's not posting very much, and not paying close attention to the thread (seems to think that more people are voting for the "claimed Cop" than there are.)
It is also true that during this period of time HR is more heavily invested in the other game he is playing (Realm of Elderlings) which is close to the end, which can explain his lack of activity to some extant.
On the flip side, this is more or less all Rhand had to say about HR: Which is pretty neutral.
HR seems to be confused how I could both (1) disbelieve Vaimes' Cop claim, and (2) think it made him more likely Town. I feel like that is pretty obvious even beyond what I said at the time, but maybe others disagree? I don't get his mindset here. It's worth pointing out that Rhand voted for Vaimes and HR doesn't comment on that at all until later when directly asked.
Then he does go on to have have a few more things to say about Rhand, though he misreads Rhand's post where Rhand is quoting Jack's reads as if they were Rhand's own reads. Rhand is now in his "bottom four," along with Ter, Jack, and Me. Maybe notably, Rhand (and me) are in the "Bronze" positions here, so, relatively safe places to put a scum-buddy.
As we're approaching end of day, I have to try and avoid confirmation bias here. It's easy to look at the post where HR says, on the one hand (1) I want Rhand to claim - but says nothing more about Rhand; and yet (2) in the same post makes all his arguments against Jack and votes for Jack, as an attempt to protect his scum-buddy. But there is also the practical side of it, and I imagine I've asked people to claim who I wasn't especially interested in lynching, just because others were and to try and move the game forward. At that moment, Rhand had 5 votes, so, squarely in claiming range, and I think we were maybe(?) 12 hours from the deadline? So, I might give him a pass on that.
Rhand claims, and HR's reaction is to ask if this is a normal role for a 12 person game on this site? I get that HR was away from Mafia for a long time, but he was one of the OG players here, so that ask just seems weird to me. I'm trying to see if the fact that HR is an (alleged) vig. with unstoppable kill factors here. Rhand's role certainly doesn't fit with HR's. What is the point of a BP vest if HR can just shoot right through it? Yes, Rhand's vest can still prevent "scum" kills, so there's a world where it could make a kind of sense to HR, but it almost seems like this claim should have aroused his suspicions more. I would say the lack of any kind of comment other than this one is slightly suspicious.
HR doesn't say anything else about Rhand for the rest of the day. Makes one more post where he's still arguing for Jack, and then hammers with 2 minutes to the deadline, just saying "I won't let it go No Lynch."
This is a reasonable position to take, and it would look better, but for the fact that Killjoy and myself were right there, so the chances of it going No Lynch were less.
Honestly, I feel like the person who made that Lynch happen was Jack. Eco. and Rhand were pretty neck and neck in the last 90 minutes of the day. His switch to Rhand made Rhand the default choice. He doesn't do that, maybe we don't get a lynch at all.
Bottom line on this D1 is that there were no smoking guns for HR here. He lurked (but was more active in his other more pressing game). He took like one strong position (TerRaine = scum). He expressed mild to zero suspicion on Rhand and was voting elsewhere until the last minute, but did get there at the end when arguably, he did not have to and could have tried for a No Lynch. Perhaps significantly, there is nothing here I feel he couldn't have done as scum.
I am still just like, super puzzled by Eco being dead today. He was such a top target for a mis-yeet (sorry to people who are offended by use of that other word. I have to consciously try to not use it). And it had to be a direct kill on Eco. because of the ascetic thing. It couldn't have been a kill that was somehow re-directed to him. Were scum just that afraid of him? Eco.'s top non-Rhand scum-read at the end of the day was TerRaine. Or, were they going for the reverse psychology play of "kill him to make the Town think that his reads were good...." I guess they could also be going for the "do something that makes no sense and cause confusion" play.
Eco. was also, incidentally, town-leaning Highroller. Which would tend to go against scum-team including HR wanting him dead, I think. Maybe this is not a productive line of thought.
Vaimes claims his Guilty on HR at #759.
HR posts at #816. Claims he killed Igno. Also seems confused about Vaimes' Cop check. He's asking "are you claiming an actual Cop check?" As though there might be some doubt about what Vaimes said. This seems like playing dumb to me. I'm trying to imagine a Town HR seeing this, and being genuinely confused: Why is he saying he has a "redcheck" on me? What is a redcheck? Is he saying I'm scum? But I'm not scum, that makes no sense!
That seems a bit far-fetched, but even if that was what he was thinking, one would think he would be a bit more proactive in following it up. He doesn't appear very concerned by this development. Whereas, if someone was claiming they had a guilty on me, I imagine I would be all over them, one way or the other.
Vaimes doubles down on the gambit in his reply, saying that, yes, he has a very definite guilty result on HR.
HR's response, again, is quite passive. He just says he's PMing Cantrip with a question. Apparently this question was "what kind of notice would Vaimes get if he was re-directed away from HR?" Basically, "could Vaimes have been re-directed, gotten a "guilty" result on the person he was re-directed to, but not be informed that he was re-directed, so he believes his result came from the person he originally targeted". Which is basically a form of bastard modding. He claims he got a "vague" response to this question from the Mod. Note that this interaction would require the scum to be re-directing Vaimes to one of themselves to get the guilty result, and also for them to know that the target is not informed of this re-direction so they get false information.
HR also explains his choice of Igno (who was not one of his top mafia targets yesterday) by quoting Vaimes' post where Vaimes says we really need to solve Igno. This makes no sense for two reasons, of course. One is that, given Vaimes' Cop claim, it seems like there would be a rather high possibility of Vaimes himself targeting Igno last night. And by shooting Igno, HR would waste that Cop shot. Why do that? Also, why are you even using Vaimes' opinion to base your choice of target on at all, as opposed to, you know, your own opinion? You have a high opinion of your own opinions. Seems very wrong for you to be so deferential in this way.
HR then announces he is ready for death.
Really?
Town-you is just folding like a house of cards in the face of this completely wrong alleged Cop result? You're not even going to try and fight it? You just said you were (supposedly) contemplating re-direction scenarios, and the Mod. did NOT rule them out, but you're not going to argue for that? Just going to roll over and die. You're also, incidentally, not making the argument that Vaimes is scum here, or that - when you flip Town - we should immediately yeet him. You just say "I am not voting an un-counterclaimed Cop." As though that makes him credible? When you know his result is 100% wrong. No. This just makes zero sense at all. Whereas, as caught scum, it does make some sense. You're burned, you know you're not likely getting out of it. No point in wasting more words and potentially giving away more info. Of the two scenarios, that one seems much more consistent.
TerRaine has already pointed out some more schizophrenic logic. In that, when asked why he would target the person Vaimes said needed solving he says (1) my reads have been so bad lately I thought I'd just defer; and also (2) I thought Vaimes had rescinded the Cop claim at the end of the day. Fake-claiming Cop is something you've already called out as anti-town behavior, but - now that you are supposedly living in this world where Vaimes did that - you are still going to follow his lead? How does that make sense at all?
When Vaimes does finally rescind the Cop claim, HR does not go after him for lying. Just says "what the hell is wrong with you," and says "now" he'll re-read the thread since there might actually be a point. A Townie HR should, of course, be doing that anyway. Even if you were going to die, you can leave us your thoughts/reads and actually still help to win the game. Scum HR only has incentive to keep posting as long as he thinks there's still a chance to live.
I'm not sure there's a world where HR can explain away all this as just normal Town behavior, when the scum behavior matches so much better.
I don't think this is correct.
Eco's Ascetic ability says "Non-killing abilities that target you will be blocked (and expended)."
A player redirecting a kill wouldn't be targeting Eco. They're be targeting the player committing the kill so that kill WOULD hit him.
Nah.
To answer whether scum-I could have done what I did Day 1, yes I could have (if I was in a playful mood and not that interested in winning the game). This is moot since I'm town but in the abstract Grape is right, and in any case I should not be alive in FloF if we get to that point.
That being said, Grape, I would like to remind you I started going after Eco long before Rhand was in any danger. So "[my] motivation was [more] to protect Rhand than to push Eco/Axel" does not make sense.
• To answer Killjoy: Three players stuck to the Eco wagon to the bitter end: good old me, and Ter and Axel. Both Ter and Axel were "scumread" by Rhand, both of them for crappy reasons (Ter for having different reads than Rhand, Axel for agreeing with Goo's reads) that could easily be made-up.
If there is a woof between the two of them (which is not certain), then based on Rhand's posts it would be Ter. Rhand was mainly going after Goo, and had it worked he had already sowed the seeds to chainflush Axel. That being said if we end up in a situation where the POE is between Axel and Ter I advise against relying on such wine.
• Ter, why did you vote KJ in 959 when in 955 you double-down on HR being obvscum?
• Highroller acting like he was intentionally letting himself die to "reveal that [Goo] was lying" is laughable.
Highroller, what happened to your scumread on Ter? Also, are you still townreading Goo after this?
• I like Axel's big posts, they are like watching the 8 hours 3 movies 48 frames-per-second high budget version of my own short-story reads.
By the way Axel, have you considered going off the beaten path and doing analyses of players who aren't already getting wagonned?
• Current reads (haven't gotten around to rereading yet, I will on Saturday regardless of the Day still being on):
Spewed clear:
2. gooLagoon, 5. Jackrito
Subjective townreads:
1. Axelrod, 3. Grapefruit21, 7. Slothful
Townreads as well but not enough to escape the POE
6. Killjoy, 8. TerRaine
Scum
4. Highroller
Had Eco not died I would probably be going after him in addition to HR, but since he's dead I don't have a non-HR scumread yet.
Sloth and Axel went up from yesterDay for their posts toDay, KJ went slightly down for insisting there had to be scum in the Eco wagon and apparently relying on me to tell him who (maybe he's trying to figure me out, but how is my stance on Axel/Ter going to help him do that?).
————
I was voting HR, Grape is voting me, and KJ wasn't voting anyone (or I missed it).
(separate post for emphasis)
Fixing quotes.
Which I think everyone has now.
....Vaimes wants to pursue roads in which he considers HR as Town. I disagree and would like to say bye bye.
Vaimes? You still want that time?
Vaimes (should I be saying Goo? I'd rather not)
Jack
Killjoy
Apparently Killjoy is controversial. I don't get why, but who knows, maybe this will be another epic bad read from me. I don't have those too often.
The Rest:
TerRaine
Grapefruit
Sloth
ZDS
And our last Mafia could theoretically be anyone in here.
I like how TerRaine is pushing things, though I will acknowledge that some of her reads are bad and Eco certainly didn't like her. She would probably be the top candidate for scum under the "Scum shot because they were worried about Eco's reads" theory, but I'm not sure I really hold to that theory.
Grape has been largely invisible to me this game. That's not necessarily on him, but I haven't noticed anything he's done. When he made a post suggesting he ought to get some credit for the Rhand lynch, my immediate reaction was, huh? Like, I guess you did vote Rhand, but I don't remember more about it. And seems like you were kind of gone for the end of the day.
Sloth also voted Rhand, and even voted first as he so proudly announced. But it was a super weak vote and Sloth did zip else D1. Feels like he has been a bit better today, but then again, he'd have to step up if he were scum after that D1.
ZDS is an enigma to me. Posts infrequently, but with reasonable logic when he does. Obviously wrong on Eco (but me too). Nothing that seems outside his scum range, but this is why we give a closer look.
This very roughly is where I'm currently at.
Vaimes made that same argument "a bunch of townies were perfectly happy to kill Eco, but couldn't save Rhand (here). You appear to be townreading him though. What's the deal there?
TerRaine
Killjoy
Slothful
GooLagoon/Vaimes
Smeagolrod
EcoBaggins
Rhand
Jackarito
Grapefruit21
SamwiseDeGamgee
Highroller
Ignoramous
Cantripmancer
As a horror fan I'd put They Live decidedly closer to Robocop than what I know of the Town flavors.
It's not a scum tell....everything else he does is enough for that. Just something that sticks out to me on top of it all
We could all do that for fun. Could it hurt?
I do not know and that's reason enough to not do it
Kind of like Elder Statesman. He was here at the very beginning of the forum.
My thing is, how does that happen? Eco had a lot of support, how do we default to Rhand? My guess is there was someone already on the Eco wagon that couldn't push onto it. I mean, that's gotta be the case. Then if HR is scum he went to Jack since there was already a scum on the Eco wagon.
Axelrod's post on Highroller has convinced me that entertaining town!Highroller worlds will not be necessary.
But really, after last game, I'm trying not to be shocked when people who absolutely shoud flip red do not flip red.
Separate thought, but I don't think a team with TerRaine on it shoots Ecophagy. He was in a position where he was easily discreditable, and they're throwing away a free misyeet. I was certainly gonna push him toDay after I had my fun with Highroller.
I don't buy his "abysmal record" in finding mafia, because of his four scumreads, one of them literally just flipped scum. Just because he didn't vote for him doesn't mean he has bad reads.
This is probably just his going into antispew mode but it doesn't hurt to ask. I'm in no rush.