1. Some GD reads from you Sloth. Also the reasoning behind the original Rhand vote you were so tight lipped about.
2. Vaimes anyone to clear?
3. Since no one seemed to be picking up on my 275/6 issue I’ll just say it now
In 275/6, Axel talks about Vaimes being Town +. He says he didn’t/doesnt believe the claim and calls it a gambit.
Why if you are Town Axel would you draw attention to the gambit of someone else you feel is Town? It’s like yelling out “OH I SEE HE’S GOING TO FAKE TO THE LEFT AND THEN GO RIGHT!!” in front of the other team before a play.
Town doesn’t go out of their way, unprompted, to **** over other town players play/gambits.
Great job, town! I knew you'd eventually arrive to the conclusion it took me seconds to arrive at in a game I was barely paying attention to. Proud of you.
Anyway I'll be taking my towncred now and ride it till the end, thanks.
Btw, Killjoy's scum too. Try not to take too long this time. VOTE: KILLJOY
Locked.
Town doesn’t go out of their way, unprompted, to **** over other town players play/gambits.
Sure you do. If it's dumb. Also, you might note that my expressing a belief/disbelief has precisely no effect on said gambit, if that's what it was.
Currently I'm wondering if there are two town vigilantes because I have a hard time imagining the Mafia shooting Eco. after yesterday. At least that is going to hopefully make looking at yesterday's interactions more productive. In particular, when it was coming down to the wire, seems like a lot of people went absent.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Great job, town! I knew you'd eventually arrive to the conclusion it took me seconds to arrive at in a game I was barely paying attention to. Proud of you.
Anyway I'll be taking my towncred now and ride it till the end, thanks.
Btw, Killjoy's scum too. Try not to take too long this time. VOTE: KILLJOY
Locked.
Unless you specifically claim a Cop result right now, this is never, ever happening. Jeez, go read the end of day yesterday.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Meaning what? How much past game meta effects his reads?
Meaning, does he stubbornly cling to reads he has in light of possible contradiction a lot? Or does he take all evidence into account?
...that sounds more like me than him.
Thank you.
Do you think if that was the case, it would be more indicative of scum!Sloth than town Sloth?
Very unlike you not to follow up on this after you got no response.
For that matter, why ask Ter specifically? You singled her out, the one player that's blatantly open about not knowing how to read me.
Doop. @Ter: Sorry for accidently misgendering you!
Hm. Ok.
I agree with you on Rhand. Though I can empathize with the idea that nothing was really happening (I thought so too) I wasn't a huge fan of his choice/reaction to complain about it instead of doing something about it.
Eco actually called that out. Do you think Eco was bussing there?
I disagree that calling out =/= bussing.
I... never said it wasn't? That was my question to you, actually. You specifically said you don't believe Rhand's "boohoo IDK what to do", and sometime before that, Eco specifically called him out on that exact thread. So, if you think they might be scum together, which you imply in this quote:
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
You think he's chainsawing Eco?
A little of A, a little of B.
I think he's scum because his view of her play feels incredibly warped, and I don't like how uber-protective of Ecophagy he is. It does not look like it's coming from an early Day 1 villager.
Even though I have stronger scumreads on him and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment. I don't really buy the "boo hoo I don't know what to do" song and dance from him. He can do literally anything to throw people in a tizzy and get content going. Right now he can comment on Jackrito's wall, Highroller's vote and defense + TerRaine's response, ZDS' general mannerisms, my claim and reads, and so on.
then you likely think Eco is bussing Rhand with that line of questioning. So I'll ask again, do you think Eco is bussing chainsaw-buddy Rhand, or not?
It is extremely hard for me to suspend my disbelief enough to consider you actually don't understand the concept of distancing, which Vaimes had already explained at this point.
Town Grape:
Grape started out the game with a bang (OR NOT APPERENTLY) but I kind of like his 160 as a reaction to the progression of the game in reaction to his (not actually) daykill. He has a habit of strongly townreading me early, and I think he's been right every time (though I think he was scum once) so it's not out of the ordinary for him to be townreading me out the gate.
I don't agree with his townread of HR in 383, I think it's too early for that.
I'm also slightly paranoid of the sheepvote onto Sloth in 402. In that same post, he asserts that there "should not be scumreads on HR" which, again, might be too early for that but the overtness of that is... kinda too much for scum maybe?
Also, this may be too overt, but Grape claiming that something is a "great reason to scumread Rhand" in 519 very obviously oozes scum motivation, and is thus an oppertunisitic vote on Rhand. The question is: is it too obvious? Grape's better scum than that, isn't he?
Eco:
Eco goes here because his posting has been reasonable, I can generally follow the logic, and there was a bit there in our questioning of Ignoramus that he was on the same page thought processwise. I also kind of like that he's analyzing the focus on himself. He also does what I do in that he attacks the problem from several sides (see 371, where he tries to get Axel to analyze his townreads that are scumreading him) which usually shows a genuine attempt to solve a puzzle he doesn't have all the pieces to.
I will say I disagree with 384, saying that Axel's long post about Eco vs. Igno is possibly negatively relevent to Axel's alignment. Specifically he says it's a lot of words to say that Axel will do the same, but whether or not Axel would do that is not relevent to Eco's alignment.
Townish Vaimes:
So I'm rereading Vaimes and I don't hate him as much as I did. 167 seems a good attempt to poke Grape from odd angles, and is a fair analysis. I find myself agreeing with a good portion of his contentful posts (167, 282)and the ones I don't agree with (284,285) seem to have been arrived at naturally. My initial respose to not liking Vaimes was due to the fact that our reactions to things tend to be the same, and I felt like the incredulity in 350 in particular was out of nowhere and a bit too intense to be real.
Axelrod:
I'm not a huge fan of 311, where he says he says his list is similar to Vaimes barring Igno, but later when I ask him to commit to that he just says no. Normally I'd lightly townread such defiance but his response feels less "I haven't really thought about it" and more "I'm not going to commit on placement because i don't want to" which townie defiance would likely be more "you can't make me" or soemthing similar.
The read about Eco vs Igno is fair in 376. I can follow it, and it's not unreasonable. There' s a little bias in it, but it doesn't feel initially malicious.
I don't hate 536. The way he handled Rhand's post feels natural, as if he actually had those problems with it.
Actually, if I'm putting too much emphasis on the defiant non-commital in 311, I kind of... don't hate what else he's been doing.
TerRaine:
I still think, even though she's claimed that it's within her personality, the push on Eco is natural. It likely comes from a place of not knowing his alignment.
The list in 327 is a bit superficial, but maybe not unreasonable.
The fact that she's done a major push on two of my townreads is a thing I'm noticing though.
It also is worth noting that despite her having the highest postcount at the moment, I have the least confident read on her. That's kind of in the back of my mind rn but I'll leave her in town because genuine.
Null ZDS:
I can kinda make sense of his read on Ignoramus in 140, and it's a nice train of thought in terms of possible determining motive. I think that depends on Ignoramus's alignment though, as it's not as objectively true as I'd like it to be. He's thinking outside the box, which is good. I just worry that this type of read is the kind of obscure off the wall read that can be used to recolor scummy behavior to be town. Though, I think if the read was made sincerely, it's likely accurate.
The complete flip on Eco in 469 is fine though. It's similar to the read on Igno, but was predicated with ZDS up his Brexit up to then, which would be counterproductive because he could have easily gotten Eco executed if he wasn't careful. It's not out of [Eco/ZDS] range to distance/bus like that, but if it was theatre wouldn't Eco recipricate?
But then he votes Eco again in 538 and I hate it. It's completely unconnected to his other thoughts on Eco. The read just kind of materialized after an ISO. It makes sense, but Jack's posting being NAI is subjective and I wish ZDS would have questioned Eco a bit more on this before hardjumping on him if this was real. BUT I could logically see that read coming from an ISO. I'm just not a fan of his progression not having a trail here.
The position that Rhand is townish for not being able to figure out what to do feels like a bit of a softball, and I disagree with it.
Highroller:
He hasn't done much this game, but Elderlings just ended so I'm not willing to commit to a read on this slot just yet. I was hard scumreading him for Not Being Town, but he was and apperently that's just what he does. My earlier townread was a bit because I was scumreading him in Elderlings and I could follow his thoughts slightly better here than I could there, so, different play=different alignment, right? Since that's not the case, I don't wanna jump to any conclusions here, and want him to do more before I form a solid opinion.
One sidenote: One thing that may point to a town HR is the "currently listening to" music blurbs. If it's not role related, it might point to a relaxed, carefree HR this game, but I'm not confident in that this early in the game.
Ignoramus:
So originally, I had a noob town read on them, but they're not noob enough for that read to be relevent.Their playstyle is, by admission, generally scummy (shallow, weak reads) so I can't really read that as AI for them. Thus there's nothing REALLY telling in their posts, though I have the weirdest feeling they're trying to pocket me. From the gut/persisting townread on me out the gate to copying my list style. It's not super solid, but also I don't think it's completely baseless either.
I specifically don't like how they flipped on Eco and Axel in 456 because the read on Axel is based on someone else's read. and the Eco read doesn't make a whole lot sense to me, but again, maybe this is just a thing they do. I'd like to take more time and do research into their other games to see how much of this is normal/AI for them. I don't wanna fall into the trap I fell into in Elderlings where I read HR as Scummy In A Vacuum and didn't check to see if that was normal for them. I'm not gonna let this all go forever, but since they claim they thrive off of wolf spew, I'm willing to let them live a bit to maybe last long enough for a wolf to die to see what they do with that.
Scummy Sloth:
He hasn't really done anything. He says he wants to put as little effort into this game as possible, true, but still. He's blankvoted Rhand, and hinted that me and possibly Grape are scum because... theatre revolving around the daykill mix up? It's unclear.
The one thing I found noteworthy is that he stubbornly hugged his scumread of Rhand when I asked him to analyze whether or not a quick wagon popping up (even at Rhand's own behest) would, in a vacuum mean anything to his alignment, and instead of taking it into his analysis, he ignores it, claiming that "context matters". While that's true, it still makes sense to look at all angles, and his reluctence to do that is scummy to me.
Jackarito:
Jack has some big posts, which is good. I'm seeing him describe Igno as a "big red flag" and HR as "not a big fan of" but in the following post he votes HR because it's more recent. I feel like that language doesn't match the vote, and I feel like they should have added to the pressure already there on Igno instead of pushing somewhere else. It may well be a vanity scumread on Igno while pushing away on a townie. This is possibly compounded by the fact that in 451 they admit they might be wrong on HR, but don't actually make the decision on where to move the vote. Then he goes back to it in 540 where he's still scumreading Igno, but not voting for either now. I sense the scumread on HR is actually fake, though whether or not this is actually "pushing away from a buddy" or "latching on to executable town" is still up in the air.
Scum: Rhand:
Rhand starts off the game fluffing, like the rest of us do, though that's unusual for him I think... enough so that it's worth commenting on but not enough to assign as alignment telling. I still dislike that he decided to complain and flail instead of trying to do anything. I'm specifically against the fact that the one thing he DOES do to drum up content (asking us to vote him) he doesn't even analyze. I can't see Rhand asking us to vote him without a plan to analyze afterward.
I believe that he didn't grasp the subtle context of 'townread vs. read' regardless of alignment. The timing of it might be suspect as he was under pressure to have reads, but for now I'm gonna throw that in the NAI category
His reads list in 346 doesn't mention any of his nulls, nor Grape, nor Terraine. He later says that Grape is a 'total gut read' when Grape asks him. I get that he was rushing, but wouldn't he logically have said that after he said me and Eco were town in his list?I guess that's not super telling, given I don't actually know how much of a rush he was in.
Then he tunnels on Vaimes for a while, which is NAI.
I kinda like his take on Sloth though, that despite his postcount, he is low content. I also had this though.
However, 429 is a weird post. He's interacting with someone he believes to be town, but the post goes from "my reads aren't strong, you might be paranoid" to a series of accusatory questions that I'm not sure are asked of a townread generally. Also of note here, I don't think scum!Rhand makes this post to scum!Eco. The progression from just answering Eco to "maybe you're paranoid" to "why you do scummy things" don't make sense in that context, nor from a logical progression perspective.
Colorful List Grape/Eco/Vaimes/Axel/TerRaine
ZDS/HR/Igno
Sloth/Jack/Rhand
Note: ZDS is gray because despite all he's done, I keep not being able to come down on one side or the other. HR and Igno I could come down, but want to wait to see what they do later.
@Axel, LAgoon: Talk to me about your scumread on Highroller. I'm not immediately seeing it.
It is currently based on Highroller doing nothing that feels even a little Town. He's barely started, so, it could just be that, but the few posts he does have don't impress. I don't like the Terraine vote. I don't like the reaction to Vaimes' Cop claim. And since then he's just peace'd out.
Isn't that just, like, vintage HR?
I've played exactly one game with the dude and even I know that. Didn't you spec that game? It just ended too, so it should be fresh in memory.
I also changed my mind on Sloth and think they are town for dumb reasons. He is annoying me this game sure with being so little impact. I think this is more likely to come from his town play though. As scum I would expect him to try more out of respect to team. Only tine I saw him as scum he was the driving force of his team. I don't think he is the type to low effort when in a small team. You all know him better though do could be wrong.
Activity is NAI for me. Sometimes I'm just busy.
You're talking about SEINEN here right? Isn't that the same game I was barely around for D1 and most of D2?
Your reaction makes the most sense as scum that knows the grape thing is BS having TMI-bias and seeing my reaction as something that can be pushed as TMI for a musky choice.
How would scum-KJ know the Grape thing was BS ?
(Also "musky choice" is terrible, even worse than Grape's "VaGoo".)
The answer is not mathematical, more based on behaviorism. This is more about his reaction to my vote on it, and his response vote.
Scum's more likely to see my reaction as "wait, what's this? This seems a little scummy but I know he's not scum. Does he know something? I think I can push this!" and go for it whereas a town would be like "hah, right? I think it's funny too."
Less of a nervous trigger finger.
I don't have a take on Sloth yet. He is the type of player that is hard for me to read because he's generally so easy-going and everything comes off as unforced and natural sounding.
If I'm going to get him, I imagine it will be on bad takes and poor logic when that becomes relevant.
5- Someone can be lying about a role to create cop cover so scum will try and kill them, some town just like to lie to create chaos also to bait scum into mistakes. I hate it personally lying about a role but it does happen and better to judge off overall play as well.
Lying about a role in order to create chaos and confusion amongst the town is not a town action.
You just got done with a game where several town players lied about their roles in an effort to create confusion for scum and help town. Several of those players are in this game. Vaimes/Goo was even one of them, hinting that he was the vig to draw the kill.
For the same reason, why do you expect the real cop (if applicable) to counterclaim?
... Why wouldn't they? It's day one. Do you know how awesome outing a mafia is for the town on day one? Why would you sit on that information, especially when your job as a cop is to reveal who mafia are?
It's ridiculous to expect a cop to out themselves D1 to counterclaim someone else, especially if they may be thinking Goo is town trying to draw the kill. If they think he's scum, they'd probably be looking to form a case and trap Goo.
In that situation you out after you get valuable information so your inevitable death is not felt too badly by the surviving players. So really, never happens D1.
In the world where you're town: Dude, we just started. Don't get so closed off already, that's how we lose games.
Other general, scattered thoughts [mostly from this page]--
Maintaining my TerRaine townread. Based off memory alone, she's one of the few trying to squeeze content out of this gif-infested thread.
Highroller/Ecophagy/Rhand team? A little less sure on Rhand, because no one has really been attacked for the naked vote there.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
I think Jackrito is town. His early rambly wall feels genuine, and he's already sticking his neck out more than he did in his last scumgame. That Ecophagy was calling people out for liking Jackrito makes me even more sure he's town. Small nitpick, but I could see a world where scum!Jackrito is buddying me due to my claim, but other slots' reactions to Jackrito makes me doubt that world.
I don't think I have any stronger opinions elsewhere. I'd like to see more serious reads/votes/content from Slothful and Grapefruit. Axelrod gets a minor pass from me because I never know how to townread his Day 1 play.
This post keeps bugging me. Not just that word “townread”, which following his explanation should still be “read”; it seems like he knows Axel is town and is looking for a reason to start townreading him.
But also that Jackrito read. That Jackrito post had way too much suspicion in it for the content that was in thread at that point. I don’t understand how you can arrive to a town clear there.
Same for ZDS and Axel to a degree, but Vaimes goes for a town clear here, which is very premature.
Axel just agreeing with Vaimes’ readslist without adding any input feels like buddying. Axel/Vaimes not a thing probably because just quoting a buddy’s readslist and saying “I agree” seems like something mafia doesn’t do.
I think Eco and KJ are town. Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense.
And KJ is doing his usual thing where he questions everything.
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
You think he's chainsawing Eco?
A little of A, a little of B.
I think he's scum because his view of her play feels incredibly warped, and I don't like how uber-protective of Ecophagy he is. It does not look like it's coming from an early Day 1 villager.
Even though I have stronger scumreads on him and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment. I don't really buy the "boo hoo I don't know what to do" song and dance from him. He can do literally anything to throw people in a tizzy and get content going. Right now he can comment on Jackrito's wall, Highroller's vote and defense + TerRaine's response, ZDS' general mannerisms, my claim and reads, and so on.
I did do things to get content going. I made people talk about me. With lack of other reads, getting people to talk about myself is the best way to get reads on them.
And I can tell you I don’t like your approach. You’re taking the easy route here, throwing me into your suspicions without taking a real stance. But while you say I am not your strongest read, you are not voting the ones that are.
I’m also having problems with Terraine because her whole worldview is more or less mine reversed. And her reaction to me is bad in a similar way as Vaimes’ is.
I’m running out of time, my train is going to arrive soon.
Quick worldview:
Town lean
Eco
KJ
Grape
Null
Ignoramus
ZDS
Sloth
HR
Lean mafia
Axel
Jacrito
Terraine
Vaimes
Vaimes / Axel probably not together
vote: gooLagoon
I guess we look at this in new context now.
Also this:
Votecount 1.8 - End of Day 1 - Murphy, You're Fired!
Prepare ship for ludicrous speed! Fasten all seatbelts, seal all entrances and exits, close all shops in the mall, cancel the three ring circus, secure all animals in the zoo!
I wonder at the possibility that there's a 3rder and it's Goo.
Btw, @Ter: Walk me through your progression on Rhand start to finish please.
Also, why did you never talk about what was off with 275/6 yesterDay? It's also really not as big a deal as you're making it.
Man, I really wanted to ask Eco why is "someone strawmaning you = light town read" for HR. Post-game I guess.
Yes, you should, because otherwise it looks like you’re trying to keep both options open.
Naturally, if you’re right and I am scum, Axelrod is unlikely to be my partner, so he should by definition be a townread. But you don’t have him as a townread right now.
You can always hypothetically move him down later if I flip town.
Great job, town! I knew you'd eventually arrive to the conclusion it took me seconds to arrive at in a game I was barely paying attention to. Proud of you.
Anyway I'll be taking my towncred now and ride it till the end, thanks.
Btw, Killjoy's scum too. Try not to take too long this time. VOTE: KILLJOY
Locked.
Unless you specifically claim a Cop result right now, this is never, ever happening. Jeez, go read the end of day yesterday.
I have. Like I said, hurry up and catch up, will ya?
This game got boringly easy if the last scum is between
I think I'm just going to ignore everyone and go do my own thing for a while.
Later.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Strong push attempts near deadline were ZDS [onto Eco], KJ [onto Jack, also suggesting Sloth], and Highroller [onto Jack].
Highroller is scum.
I really want to say that if ZDS were scum, he would've given Rhand the footholds he was begging for to get into the game. Rhand even asked him point blank "What should I have an opinion on?" or something. Kind of a WIFOM-y read.
I'm going to suspend my opinion on KJ for the duration of this Day phase. Dance, monkeys.
I dunno, maybe Grapefruit is the last one? The peak of the Ecophagy wagon was like, four votes [with me being the fourth], and I find it really hard to believe that Ecophagy could have had a bunch of villagers perfectly willing to kill him and yet the mafia team failed to save Rhand.
Grapefruit put his vote on Rhand and that was all he wrote up until Night. Can't be bothered to check but it was probably a timezone thing. I'd like to see more of his opinions toDay.
I dunno, maybe Grapefruit is the last one? The peak of the Ecophagy wagon was like, four votes [with me being the fourth], and I find it really hard to believe that Ecophagy could have had a bunch of villagers perfectly willing to kill him and yet the mafia team failed to save Rhand.
Grapefruit put his vote on Rhand and that was all he wrote up until Night. Can't be bothered to check but it was probably a timezone thing. I'd like to see more of his opinions toDay.
Let's wait for others to chip in before continuing this line of thought please.
1. Some GD reads from you Sloth. Also the reasoning behind the original Rhand vote you were so tight lipped about.
Why.
...why would I want to hear from you? when you coasted through D1 on silence/fluff? When your seemingly random pick you refused to expound on flipped scum?
I think Jack is spewed town. Rhand following me and HR onto Jack doesn't makes sense given that Eco had more overall support. Unless the team is exactly Jack/Rhand/Eco, I don't think that ever happens to Jack vs. Eco there. Post Day start Edit: Eco was town, so he was def the counterwagon.
I think Vaimes is also spewed town by Rhand. There was a whole conversation about 'townreading vs. reading' and it's relationship to Axel that theoretically could be theater, but I don't think it is. I think this post is particularly telling:
In conclusion, I’m not shocked at the vote, but I am mildly surprised at the complete opposite worldview. That seems more like a calculated move, to be honest, unless one of us is just having a bad game.
I mean, some of us have to having a bad game because we can't all be right. Why do you think mafia-Rhand would drop a totally opposite world view to push you when he could easily have made something less controversial?
@Rhand: Why did you choose to vote gooLagoon over TerRaine and Jackrito who already have votes on and are (at least marginally) more realistic wagons?
Because he’s my strongest read. I wasn’t looking at wagons when I voted. And I don’t care at this point really.
where Rhand says he didn't look at the wagon before voting. I don't think Rhand fakes a scummy reason to having a vote on his buddy like this. Also, that whole conversation between Rhand and Vaimes is really nitpicky, revolving around using a word vs. another word. If it's theatre, it's really awkward theater that only makes Rhand look bad in the longrun.
The relationship between Axel and Rhand is one I'm having trouble figuring out. This post:
Anyway, what I’m getting at is Rhand looks more like he wants to keep the option of Axelrod being scum open rather than commit to the one world where I’m scum and Axelrod is town, at least until he gets more information to reevaluate.
is one that I think is correct, and if Vaimes is townspewed, then his motives can be trusted. Rhand also said this of Axel:
You obviously, I am voting you. Are you saying I should artificially push Axel in a better category because I am scum reading you?
The problem I'm having is: does scum!Rhand try to convincetown not townread his buddy with such gusto? I wanna say no but my experience identifying distancing is pretty bad. so I'm not 100% there, but leaning on it.
ZDS spends a lot of time townreading Rhand while pushing Eco, who I think is very likely his counterwagon.
• Rhand's claim is believable. The role itself is probably more likely to be on town than on scum, but depending on the rest of the set-up either could work. So I don't expect it to change many people's opinions.
Rhand's ISO: His content is very underwhelming, even after he stopped complaining about his own cluelessness. He is consistent in that regard, and I did not see any sign he was only pretending. If he's conning us, he's going for the long con.
• On Goo VS Rhand, I agree with Goo it would be more logical for Rhand to sort Axel a little higher (even if he has to dedicate a category to him). That being said, how does scum-Rhand benefit from being illogical here? It's not as if it would prevent him from voting Axel after a town-Goo flip, or at any point for that matter.
Rhand having a hard time forming opinion is a good thing (to a minor extent), since scum-him could easily throw a couple logical or consensual town reads here or there to pretend he's doing something and hide among the crowd. I think he is legitimately struggling.
Rhand reminds me of his Shoushiling (scum-)self so far, asking questions and making statements that lead nowhere. Caveat: it's early, maybe he'll wow us later.
Unfortunately since Eco died I can't think of any questions to ask him to see his mindset re: Rhand. Was gonna ask him about EcovsRhand being counterwagons but now that Eco is dead, it's obvious.
Hm. Actually, which of the other folks pushing Eco is scum? It's very likely that one scum pushed Eco yesterday, and since you likely won't just admit it was you, who was it and why?
Grape could be scum for his vote on Rhand being this:
My main point is Rhand would benefit from being right about me AND get a headstart on attacking people voting me so it looks more organic (maybe that's why he started with least-likely-to-succeed-D1-target gooLagoon???). It's a good point that that makes it difficult to fit a scum team into the space around peopel trying to kill me, but I guess we can't work that out anyway without some bodies.
Vote: Rhand
the more I think about this the more I think it's actually a decent reason to scum read Rhand. And the PoE narrowness isn't as bad as I thought. It's just like Ter and Eco are town and Axel looks a lot better.
in which he votes him for having a good reason to scumread him. I'm wary of language tells , but it's here and not super subtle, so there it is. Grape: Why did you vote Rhand in 380 after saying his recap was good in 377?
Highroller might be scum for jumping on Jack with me and last minute voting Rhand like he did. Also. following an ISO, he had Rhand at Bronze but never really pushed him at all.
Ter... locked onto Rhand for a bit but then locked onto Eco really close to Day End. Before that she was alternating between Axel and Eco. Aside from that point where she called him out for the ineffectual wagon he asked for on himself, there's not much in the way of suspicion. She might be scum, but it's weak.
Sloth blankvoted Rhand and did nothing after that. That's... unusual for a buddy but maybe Sloth did it. Sloth is pretty unknown due to lurking, and the other lurker died so there's a chance that Sloth is scum here, but it's not strong. There are stronger cases elsewhere.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
1. Some GD reads from you Sloth. Also the reasoning behind the original Rhand vote you were so tight lipped about.
Why.
...why would I want to hear from you? when you coasted through D1 on silence/fluff? When your seemingly random pick you refused to expound on flipped scum?
Also can someone explain how Ascetic works? Is is possible Igno Bodyguarded Eco, died for him but because Eco is Ascetic the protection didn't take and he died as well?
Also can someone explain how Ascetic works? Is is possible Igno Bodyguarded Eco, died for him but because Eco is Ascetic the protection didn't take and he died as well?
I didn't decide anything on KJ.
I'm pretty sure scum killed Ecophagy and Ecophagy vigged ignoramus.
I'm assuming you meant Highroller and are just too infatuated with Killjoy to have noticed your mistake.
I was feeling pretty solid about a Rhand/Ecophagy/Highroller team, and figured with how wagons played out, they were probably w/w and wanted to shed some light on Highroller's alignment.
And this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but let's just speed-yeet these next two days. I don't care for any arguments against it: If we kill those two and the game is not over, then we take our time.
Otherwise we're just sitting around, slowly ******* dying.
So can we please not?
From Sloth: Here's a question: What were you seeing at the time that in your eyes should have been enough to change my mind at all?
I literally proposed an abstract view that applied to the situation that might have suggested a town!Rhand, or at least hinted at it. It should have affected your read, unless you were stubbornly clinging to it for some reason. You didn't even take it into account.
This question is loaded, btw. Saying "enough to change your mind" implies that you had a strong reason to vote him in the first place, which you didn't. No one really had strong reasons for anything at that point in the game. It also implies a "guilty until proven innocent mentality, which I know for a fact is not how you play Mafia.
From Sloth: Very unlike you not to follow up on this after you got no response.
For that matter, why ask Ter specifically? You singled her out, the one player that's blatantly open about not knowing how to read me.
I do miss things sometimes Sloth. Implying I'm perfect isn't productive.
Did I continue to pursue you after this with any vigor? That would imply I didn't really care about the question instead of just missing it.
I also literally said it was because she knew you the best.
From Sloth: It is extremely hard for me to suspend my disbelief enough to consider you actually don't understand the concept of distancing, which Vaimes had already explained at this point. I missed that point about him correcting himself. See here:
Oops this is nonsensical. I disagree that calling out a buddy is equivalent to bussing them. It’s distancing.
Oh I just saw this. Idk how I missed it before.
My question then becomes "Then do you think this is scum distancing or a legit find from town? What does it feel like?
Where I literally say I missed it before. You're not reading all of my posts.
From Sloth: **** do we have to? We can just spend kill HR and Grape tomorrow and be in a good spot even if they're both Town.Can you repeat that without the typos? Because it doesn't currently make sense to me.
I have a redcheck on Highroller, but we're going to spend the Day looking for the last one.
Sweet, that makes this easier.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
And this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but let's just speed-yeet these next two days. I don't care for any arguments against it: If we kill those two and the game is not over, then we take our time.
Otherwise we're just sitting around, slowly ******* dying.
So can we please not?
Also can someone explain how Ascetic works? Is is possible Igno Bodyguarded Eco, died for him but because Eco is Ascetic the protection didn't take and he died as well?
I didn't decide anything on KJ.
I'm pretty sure scum killed Ecophagy and Ecophagy vigged ignoramus.
This is the only thing that makes sense to me. He could have shot Igno's target, but that's gonna be unprovable, and wouldn't make a difference regardless. The important thing is the scumkill doesn't make sense to have been anyone but Eco, and Igno was killed by Eco.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Eh **** it, let's kill HR first and fully clear Vaimes while we are at it.
unvote
Vote: HighRoller
Lets let Axel do his thing. It's probably be good, and might help us read him.
Also I'm a bit interested in hearing from ZDS, but I kinda agree with Vaimes in that ZDS didn't give Rhand any outs (nor did he give himself any really) and kinda banked on killing Eco vs. Rhand and after Eco flipped he would have looked bad.
Ter: Can you reiterate your scumread on Eco for us?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
And this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but let's just speed-yeet these next two days. I don't care for any arguments against it: If we kill those two and the game is not over, then we take our time.
Otherwise we're just sitting around, slowly ******* dying.
So can we please not?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I have a redcheck on KILLJOY IN MY RUSH, but we're going to spend the Day looking for the last one.
(My check cannot be blocked, in case they tried to block me.)
**** do we have to? We can just speed kill HR and Grape tomorrow and be in a good spot even if they're both Town.
As in, KJ toDay, {HR/Grape} toMorrow and the other the next Day if the game was still going.
Even if HR and Grape turn out to be Town, we'd start D5 at 5v1.
the mounties gif was me being like "haha, second scum KJ caught like the mounties."
The biggest bummer in this game so far is that I did not do the gif justice by using it in error. Sad.
1. Some GD reads from you Sloth. Also the reasoning behind the original Rhand vote you were so tight lipped about.
2. Vaimes anyone to clear?
3. Since no one seemed to be picking up on my 275/6 issue I’ll just say it now
In 275/6, Axel talks about Vaimes being Town +. He says he didn’t/doesnt believe the claim and calls it a gambit.
Why if you are Town Axel would you draw attention to the gambit of someone else you feel is Town? It’s like yelling out “OH I SEE HE’S GOING TO FAKE TO THE LEFT AND THEN GO RIGHT!!” in front of the other team before a play.
Town doesn’t go out of their way, unprompted, to **** over other town players play/gambits.
Anyone have what Eco's read on Igno was by day end?
Great job, town! I knew you'd eventually arrive to the conclusion it took me seconds to arrive at in a game I was barely paying attention to. Proud of you.
Anyway I'll be taking my towncred now and ride it till the end, thanks.
Btw, Killjoy's scum too. Try not to take too long this time.
VOTE: KILLJOY
Locked.
Currently I'm wondering if there are two town vigilantes because I have a hard time imagining the Mafia shooting Eco. after yesterday. At least that is going to hopefully make looking at yesterday's interactions more productive. In particular, when it was coming down to the wire, seems like a lot of people went absent.
For that matter, why ask Ter specifically? You singled her out, the one player that's blatantly open about not knowing how to read me.
It is extremely hard for me to suspend my disbelief enough to consider you actually don't understand the concept of distancing, which Vaimes had already explained at this point.
Hah. And this is, what? The third Alternative-to-Rhand proposal you tried to push at the 11th hour? Ballsy. Hah.
I've played exactly one game with the dude and even I know that. Didn't you spec that game? It just ended too, so it should be fresh in memory.
Hm.
Did you protect me? I'm assuming you protected someone.
You're talking about SEINEN here right? Isn't that the same game I was barely around for D1 and most of D2?
Scum's more likely to see my reaction as "wait, what's this? This seems a little scummy but I know he's not scum. Does he know something? I think I can push this!" and go for it whereas a town would be like "hah, right? I think it's funny too."
Less of a nervous trigger finger.
(Don't be a musky choice, Dork)
You just got done with a game where several town players lied about their roles in an effort to create confusion for scum and help town. Several of those players are in this game. Vaimes/Goo was even one of them, hinting that he was the vig to draw the kill.
It's ridiculous to expect a cop to out themselves D1 to counterclaim someone else, especially if they may be thinking Goo is town trying to draw the kill. If they think he's scum, they'd probably be looking to form a case and trap Goo.
In that situation you out after you get valuable information so your inevitable death is not felt too badly by the surviving players. So really, never happens D1.
In the world where you're town: Dude, we just started. Don't get so closed off already, that's how we lose games.
Also this:
--
I voted you because you were obv scum, buddy
Sloth
Eco
Igno
Jack
ZDS
Ter
Rhand
KJ
Axel+
Goo++
Grape
HR
I wonder at the possibility that there's a 3rder and it's Goo.
Btw, @Ter: Walk me through your progression on Rhand start to finish please.
Also, why did you never talk about what was off with 275/6 yesterDay? It's also really not as big a deal as you're making it.
Man, I really wanted to ask Eco why is "someone strawmaning you = light town read" for HR. Post-game I guess.
Also... ...
= ??
This game got boringly easy if the last scum is between
I have a redcheck on Highroller, but we're going to spend the Day looking for the last one.
(My check cannot be blocked, in case they tried to block me.)
I'm kind of digging Sloth's KJ read. It's hot.
**** do we have to? We can just spend kill HR and Grape tomorrow and be in a good spot even if they're both Town.
Later.
Fine, so long as it's a KJ yeet.
Anyone that tries to change that toDay is immediately scum.
Highroller is scum.
I really want to say that if ZDS were scum, he would've given Rhand the footholds he was begging for to get into the game. Rhand even asked him point blank "What should I have an opinion on?" or something. Kind of a WIFOM-y read.
I'm going to suspend my opinion on KJ for the duration of this Day phase. Dance, monkeys.
Grape/KJ with that whole indie thing being theater would be hilarious but not, like, 100% sold.
Ecophagy (3): Grapefruit21, ZeDorkSlipeur, TerRaine
Rhand (2): Slothful, gooLagoon
Highroller (2): Axelrod, Jackrito
Jackrito (1): Ecophagy
Axelrod (1): ignoramus
TerRaine (1): Highroller
gooLagoon (1): Rhand
Not Voting (1): Killjoy
---
I dunno, maybe Grapefruit is the last one? The peak of the Ecophagy wagon was like, four votes [with me being the fourth], and I find it really hard to believe that Ecophagy could have had a bunch of villagers perfectly willing to kill him and yet the mafia team failed to save Rhand.
Grapefruit put his vote on Rhand and that was all he wrote up until Night. Can't be bothered to check but it was probably a timezone thing. I'd like to see more of his opinions toDay.
...why would I want to hear from you? when you coasted through D1 on silence/fluff? When your seemingly random pick you refused to expound on flipped scum?
gee I can't imagine.
I think Jack is spewed town. Rhand following me and HR onto Jack doesn't makes sense given that Eco had more overall support. Unless the team is exactly Jack/Rhand/Eco, I don't think that ever happens to Jack vs. Eco there. Post Day start Edit: Eco was town, so he was def the counterwagon.
I think Vaimes is also spewed town by Rhand. There was a whole conversation about 'townreading vs. reading' and it's relationship to Axel that theoretically could be theater, but I don't think it is. I think this post is particularly telling: where Rhand says he didn't look at the wagon before voting. I don't think Rhand fakes a scummy reason to having a vote on his buddy like this. Also, that whole conversation between Rhand and Vaimes is really nitpicky, revolving around using a word vs. another word. If it's theatre, it's really awkward theater that only makes Rhand look bad in the longrun.
The relationship between Axel and Rhand is one I'm having trouble figuring out. This post: is one that I think is correct, and if Vaimes is townspewed, then his motives can be trusted. Rhand also said this of Axel: The problem I'm having is: does scum!Rhand try to convincetown not townread his buddy with such gusto? I wanna say no but my experience identifying distancing is pretty bad. so I'm not 100% there, but leaning on it.
ZDS spends a lot of time townreading Rhand while pushing Eco, who I think is very likely his counterwagon.
Hm. Actually, which of the other folks pushing Eco is scum? It's very likely that one scum pushed Eco yesterday, and since you likely won't just admit it was you, who was it and why?
Grape could be scum for his vote on Rhand being this: in which he votes him for having a good reason to scumread him. I'm wary of language tells , but it's here and not super subtle, so there it is.
Grape: Why did you vote Rhand in 380 after saying his recap was good in 377?
Highroller might be scum for jumping on Jack with me and last minute voting Rhand like he did. Also. following an ISO, he had Rhand at Bronze but never really pushed him at all.
Ter... locked onto Rhand for a bit but then locked onto Eco really close to Day End. Before that she was alternating between Axel and Eco. Aside from that point where she called him out for the ineffectual wagon he asked for on himself, there's not much in the way of suspicion. She might be scum, but it's weak.
Sloth blankvoted Rhand and did nothing after that. That's... unusual for a buddy but maybe Sloth did it. Sloth is pretty unknown due to lurking, and the other lurker died so there's a chance that Sloth is scum here, but it's not strong. There are stronger cases elsewhere.
Day End Votecount:
And that's where I'm at.
Also can someone explain how Ascetic works? Is is possible Igno Bodyguarded Eco, died for him but because Eco is Ascetic the protection didn't take and he died as well?
I'm pretty sure scum killed Ecophagy and Ecophagy vigged ignoramus.
I mean what made you decide to cop-check him. That IS what you're saying you did here right?
I was feeling pretty solid about a Rhand/Ecophagy/Highroller team, and figured with how wagons played out, they were probably w/w and wanted to shed some light on Highroller's alignment.
Ok, game over then.
Rhand/KJ/HR.
GG everyone.
Still say we kill KJ first.
And this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but let's just speed-yeet these next two days. I don't care for any arguments against it: If we kill those two and the game is not over, then we take our time.
Otherwise we're just sitting around, slowly ******* dying.
So can we please not?
I literally proposed an abstract view that applied to the situation that might have suggested a town!Rhand, or at least hinted at it. It should have affected your read, unless you were stubbornly clinging to it for some reason. You didn't even take it into account.
This question is loaded, btw. Saying "enough to change your mind" implies that you had a strong reason to vote him in the first place, which you didn't. No one really had strong reasons for anything at that point in the game. It also implies a "guilty until proven innocent mentality, which I know for a fact is not how you play Mafia.
From Sloth: Very unlike you not to follow up on this after you got no response.
For that matter, why ask Ter specifically? You singled her out, the one player that's blatantly open about not knowing how to read me.
I do miss things sometimes Sloth. Implying I'm perfect isn't productive.
Did I continue to pursue you after this with any vigor? That would imply I didn't really care about the question instead of just missing it.
I also literally said it was because she knew you the best.
From Sloth: It is extremely hard for me to suspend my disbelief enough to consider you actually don't understand the concept of distancing, which Vaimes had already explained at this point. I missed that point about him correcting himself. See here: Where I literally say I missed it before. You're not reading all of my posts.
From Sloth: **** do we have to? We can just spend kill HR and Grape tomorrow and be in a good spot even if they're both Town.Can you repeat that without the typos? Because it doesn't currently make sense to me.
I have a redcheck on Highroller, but we're going to spend the Day looking for the last one.
Sweet, that makes this easier.
unvote
Vote: HighRoller
Just so no one misses this.
Also I'm a bit interested in hearing from ZDS, but I kinda agree with Vaimes in that ZDS didn't give Rhand any outs (nor did he give himself any really) and kinda banked on killing Eco vs. Rhand and after Eco flipped he would have looked bad.
Ter: Can you reiterate your scumread on Eco for us?
Sloth: Same for Rhand?
Like why?
Even if HR and Grape turn out to be Town, we'd start D5 at 5v1.
The biggest bummer in this game so far is that I did not do the gif justice by using it in error. Sad.