My brain is not working at full capacity so I'm going to keep things relatively short.
Unvote
The timing of Axel's case and vote was probably more coincidental than I initially knee-jerkingly thought. The analysis still reads like it was written with the intent to justify the vote at the end, but , that's subjective.
@goo: I'm for running up someone in the Eco/Axel/Rhand/HR group and will (re)vote accordingly.
@Ter: Why are you so secretive about whatever Axel did that's so bad? Are you learning anything from the answers you get?
@Highroller: Why do you take goo's claim at face value? He could be memeing.
For the same reason, why do you expect the real cop (if applicable) to counterclaim?
Re #490: you have lots of strong opinions, please back them up.
Are you still scumreading Ter? Apparently she didn't say much that caught your eye.
@Axel: Why do you focus on analysing small events? What do you expect to learn from the gooRhand argument?
(What is "anti-meta"? )
@Igno: Even if you don't have reads or if they don't stay long, try to leave some kind of trail. For example if someone makes a good / bad argument say it, if you agree / disagree with someone say it, if a post let an impression of any kind on you say it, etc.
By the way, Ter is a darn good woof and so are many players here (including myself). If you are town (which I currently think) I advise against sheeping anyone in this game. If you think you only need to be paranoid of Rhand you will be sorry before long.
This vote count looks even weirder than before. It creeps me out that there's a set of people who want Eco dead and a set of people who want some combination of Ter/Goo/Jack dead, but both groups are mostly ok with Axelrod and Rhand. I would definitely like to see HR and Goo move votes because those wagons aren't happening, and I don't think Sloth is a valuable wagon at this stage - unless KJ and Grapefruit would actually like him dead for his non-participation.
I don't think it's entirely paranoia but I think it's something so idiosyncratic to your slot to be almost useless to the broader game even if we're town reading you. Yes he could be trying to pocket you by aligning his reads with yours, while not attempting to save you. That is a possibility but it implies he's scum and not with the people pushing you which requires both the belief that you're town and Ter is town and then needs to be willing to read him on his actions in that world.
I'm at you being town and I feel better about Ter after your interactions with her today but I'm not ready to then make reads based on what scum would be doing in that world.
There is also the problem of what's Rhand's plan in that world. Yes it tracks but pocketing you while letting you die isn't exactly a great utility to him. And he could set up pushes on your town wagon without trying to get you on his side (because who looks at dead villagers posts after all?).
My main point is Rhand would benefit from being right about me AND get a headstart on attacking people voting me so it looks more organic (maybe that's why he started with least-likely-to-succeed-D1-target gooLagoon???). It's a good point that that makes it difficult to fit a scum team into the space around peopel trying to kill me, but I guess we can't work that out anyway without some bodies.
That is the second person who thinks Rhand reorganizing Jackrito's jumbled reads in a T/S list is Rhand's own personal readslist.
It isn't.
I think Rhand is scum but you guys have got to stop skimming people's ISOs and not even reading the contexts of their posts.
I saw that too. I think all that tells is that HR/Rhand, GF/Rhand, and maybe HR/GF are not w/w? I'm not sure that's particularly useful information though.
I saw that too. I think all that tells is that HR/Rhand, GF/Rhand, and maybe HR/GF are not w/w? I'm not sure that's particularly useful information though.
I don't think it excludes Rhand/Highroller at all. I think Grapefruit is town so it's not super relevant.
Unvote, vote Rhand
Get someone to L-2 already, you goddamn cowards. Preferably Rhand or Ecophagy. Highroller doesn't have enough content to make his wagon worth it.
I don't think it excludes Rhand/Highroller at all. I think Grapefruit is town so it's not super relevant.
Agree on Grapferuit. Do you think it excludes Rhand/HR? I feel like a buddy isn't going to make that kind of mistake as a distancing attack? Unless it was on purpose to distance and then go "oh yeah oops".
Yeah I'm going to stop thinking about this because my brain hurts.
I struggle to keep everyone's reads in my sieve of a brain.
Goo what are your feelings on Axelrod?
Not really worth pursuing Day 1, at least for me personally. I have him as town by default because I already have a theory team I'm working towards either proving or disproving.
I don't have major tells against him. I have paranoia.
Thing is I know he's a good player as either alignment. As of now he seems to be coasting and hedgy.
If he's town, he's not really adding much to our roster and I just don't see much drive to kick it into gear. The info from his flip gives us more than his play has been
If he's scum, we don't really WANT him to kick it into gear.
It would be one thing if he wasn't present (See: Sloth) but he is and there's just not much there to work with.
Also I wasn't a fan of the whole...
Rhand: Hey wagon me!
Goo/Me/someone else?: Ok.
Rhand: ....well....not like that!
In the end...either we hit scum or we misyeet and have a flip and have a wagon to examine and starting point
I know you and I are trying this "being less antagonistic towards each other" thing but I really hate that your second top vote is because 1) he might be scum and that would be scary late game and 2) iNfORmaTioN. Yes, yes, I'm oversimplifying, but it stinks as a reason to vote because toMorrow you can shrug your shoulders and say "well too bad".
I know you and I are trying this "being less antagonistic towards each other" thing but I really hate that your second top vote is because 1) he might be scum and that would be scary late game and 2) iNfORmaTioN. Yes, yes, I'm oversimplifying, but it stinks as a reason to vote because toMorrow you can shrug your shoulders and say "well too bad".
Like I said. I don't have juicy major tells against him. I have small, irksome things and paranoia. The hedging, the downplaying his thoughts, the tiny instances here and there of not reading the game, overall it just feels like he's trying very hard not to commit to much. He's got the 4th highest post count in the game (**** you sloth you don't count here) and I don't feel like there's much substance esp for someone who didn't really get into the spew of fluff at the start.
I thought I was pretty much already down there, wasn't I?
Missed this on my first go around.
Why would you think this?
I could have sworn you had said some negative things about me before that, but looking back I don't actually see any. You just asked the thread if I had a history of ****posting with memes and stuff. I think I just got that impression from the gif stuff at the very beginning, When you were mean to me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
On the subject of Rhand, you said at one point you did not like their 346 and would expand on it later, did you ever do that because think I missed it if you did when I relooked over game. You sort of went on this Eco hunt after that and not really looked back.
No, I did not go back to that, and had, in fact, completely forgotten about it. That will be for tomorrow now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
My main point is Rhand would benefit from being right about me AND get a headstart on attacking people voting me so it looks more organic (maybe that's why he started with least-likely-to-succeed-D1-target gooLagoon???). It's a good point that that makes it difficult to fit a scum team into the space around peopel trying to kill me, but I guess we can't work that out anyway without some bodies.
Vote: Rhand
the more I think about this the more I think it's actually a decent reason to scum read Rhand. And the PoE narrowness isn't as bad as I thought. It's just like Ter and Eco are town and Axel looks a lot better.
\ @Axel: Why do you focus on analysing small events?
Hello, have you met me?
Also, all we have right now (and most D1s unless something unusual happens) is small events.
What do you expect to learn from the gooRhand argument?
Dunno. I expect to learn if either/or/both of them seem like they're arguing from a good faith perspective.
(What is "anti-meta"? )
Well, if "meta" is: player X plays like (this) when they are Town/Scum. Anti-meta is: "I don't think player X is playing the same way that they normally play when they are Town/Scum. Therefore, they must be the other one. Which is even worse then a regular "meta" argument, but as far as I could tell was the entire reason for your vote.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Alright. I'm gonna reread, and also try to figure out my read on Vaimes. I don't like having a "scummy, but i have no idea why" read on people, especially people i usually townread.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Wether I agree or disagree doesnt matter. You seem to agree that you are "coaching" him since your use the verbiage yourself. His assesment of Igno alignment makes a certain amount of sense and feel like ZDS' typically approach to reading people.
Now you answer my question. WHY assume anything when you can ask direct questions? You are basically just telling us you're approaching this with a lens of bias instead of a blank slate which taints any read your gonna get
Like. This is a townpost, no? Between the defiance and the forceful pushiness I feel like it's coming from town.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Sloth: You had said something about my #197 and how you were saving it for later. I assume that's part of the thing you saw with me, and it's later. So what about that post gave you pause?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
My brain is not working at full capacity so I'm going to keep things relatively short.
Unvote
The timing of Axel's case and vote was probably more coincidental than I initially knee-jerkingly thought. The analysis still reads like it was written with the intent to justify the vote at the end, but , that's subjective.
@goo: I'm for running up someone in the Eco/Axel/Rhand/HR group and will (re)vote accordingly.
@Ter: Why are you so secretive about whatever Axel did that's so bad? Are you learning anything from the answers you get?
@Highroller: Why do you take goo's claim at face value? He could be memeing.
For the same reason, why do you expect the real cop (if applicable) to counterclaim?
Re #490: you have lots of strong opinions, please back them up.
Are you still scumreading Ter? Apparently she didn't say much that caught your eye.
@Axel: Why do you focus on analysing small events? What do you expect to learn from the gooRhand argument?
(What is "anti-meta"? )
@Igno: Even if you don't have reads or if they don't stay long, try to leave some kind of trail. For example if someone makes a good / bad argument say it, if you agree / disagree with someone say it, if a post let an impression of any kind on you say it, etc.
By the way, Ter is a darn good woof and so are many players here (including myself). If you are town (which I currently think) I advise against sheeping anyone in this game. If you think you only need to be paranoid of Rhand you will be sorry before long.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@VaGoo You said earlier that you thought Jack is town, but also that Eco pushing him made Jack more town. Do you find yourself often using scumreads on people who's alignment you don't know to color your townreads? How often are either of those reads correct?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Vote: Rhand
the more I think about this the more I think it's actually a decent reason to scum read Rhand. And the PoE narrowness isn't as bad as I thought. It's just like Ter and Eco are town and Axel looks a lot better.
You were supposed to convince me I was being paranoid, not enable me!
Eco: Given Ignoramus's claimed experience, do you think they're just pretending to be noobish? Or does this behavior seem sincere?
I don't think they're pretending - as you say they are coming across quite genuinely. I think their experience doesn't seem to be translating into high quality game play. On an objective level their play is pretty scummy - fluctating reads, willingness to sheep, lack of voting, not a lot of investigation: just passive question answering. But as you say, it also seems pretty sincere, so it could just be bad play rather than malicious play. It's why I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt for the time being, especially to see if they're any more useful when there are bodies to use. But I'm also not writing them off forever as town for just being sincere.
@zds: I think that question to Sloth was just badly worded. I do think Sloth is scum and therefore might know Rhands alignment, but a more accurate question would be "in a world where you're not assuming his alignment" because there was obviously some bias there.
@Eco: Fair enough with regard to Ignoramus. I will probably begin treating them samely.
And I'll likely do the same with Ter.
I will have updated reads in the morning. It's late right now
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Other general, scattered thoughts [mostly from this page]--
Maintaining my TerRaine townread. Based off memory alone, she's one of the few trying to squeeze content out of this gif-infested thread.
Highroller/Ecophagy/Rhand team? A little less sure on Rhand, because no one has really been attacked for the naked vote there.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
I think Jackrito is town. His early rambly wall feels genuine, and he's already sticking his neck out more than he did in his last scumgame. That Ecophagy was calling people out for liking Jackrito makes me even more sure he's town. Small nitpick, but I could see a world where scum!Jackrito is buddying me due to my claim, but other slots' reactions to Jackrito makes me doubt that world.
I don't think I have any stronger opinions elsewhere. I'd like to see more serious reads/votes/content from Slothful and Grapefruit. Axelrod gets a minor pass from me because I never know how to townread his Day 1 play.
This post keeps bugging me. Not just that word “townread”, which following his explanation should still be “read”; it seems like he knows Axel is town and is looking for a reason to start townreading him.
But also that Jackrito read. That Jackrito post had way too much suspicion in it for the content that was in thread at that point. I don’t understand how you can arrive to a town clear there.
Same for ZDS and Axel to a degree, but Vaimes goes for a town clear here, which is very premature.
Axel just agreeing with Vaimes’ readslist without adding any input feels like buddying. Axel/Vaimes not a thing probably because just quoting a buddy’s readslist and saying “I agree” seems like something mafia doesn’t do.
I think Eco and KJ are town. Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense.
And KJ is doing his usual thing where he questions everything.
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
You think he's chainsawing Eco?
A little of A, a little of B.
I think he's scum because his view of her play feels incredibly warped, and I don't like how uber-protective of Ecophagy he is. It does not look like it's coming from an early Day 1 villager.
Even though I have stronger scumreads on him and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment. I don't really buy the "boo hoo I don't know what to do" song and dance from him. He can do literally anything to throw people in a tizzy and get content going. Right now he can comment on Jackrito's wall, Highroller's vote and defense + TerRaine's response, ZDS' general mannerisms, my claim and reads, and so on.
I did do things to get content going. I made people talk about me. With lack of other reads, getting people to talk about myself is the best way to get reads on them.
And I can tell you I don’t like your approach. You’re taking the easy route here, throwing me into your suspicions without taking a real stance. But while you say I am not your strongest read, you are not voting the ones that are.
I’m also having problems with Terraine because her whole worldview is more or less mine reversed. And her reaction to me is bad in a similar way as Vaimes’ is.
I’m running out of time, my train is going to arrive soon.
Quick worldview:
Town lean
Eco
KJ
Grape
Null
Ignoramus
ZDS
Sloth
HR
Lean mafia
Axel
Jacrito
Terraine
Vaimes
Vaimes / Axel probably not together
vote: gooLagoon
Starting from the top, I don't see the issue Rhand sees with the use of the term "townread" which he feels should just be "read." Especially given the context, which is that Vaimes (apparently) scum-reads me a lot on D1, but I have always been town. It makes sense, under those circumstances to say that he doesn't know how to "townread" me, because that - specifically - is what he hasn't been able to do correctly. There hasn't been a situation where I have been scum for him to contrast it with. This is a small thing, but Rhand is just making it a much bigger issue than it ever should be. Incidentally, it would also be kind of clumsy for scum-Vaimes to suggest I was Town in this way. Why would he even want to do that?
I already said that I liked Jackrito's post also, though I didn't go any further than that. What I liked was an early effort to give a bunch of reads on a bunch of people. This - I feel - comes from a Town mentality more often than a scum one. Obviously not that scum can't and don't do it, but just "more often." Besides that, I felt like these were more than just a bunch of weak surface or "gut" reads. Like there was some actual thought that went into them (regardless of whether I agree or disagree). It's nothing huge, and certainly did not make Jack "clear", but it was a decent post. So I take issue with people who seemed to think it was scummy. Rhand's view in particular here - that he didn't like it because it had "too much suspicion" in it for that point in the game, makes no sense to me.
Now, Rhand's larger point was that he didn't like the fact that Vaimes was town-reading Jackrito over it. It was more an attack on Vaimes. And while, like I said, I certainly wouldn't have "cleared" Jack on that post alone, I don't really care that Vaimes expressed a stronger opinion about it.
Then he suggests that I might have been "buddying" Vaimes with my post where I just quoted his read-list and agreed with it. That, of course, would make me the scum (for buddying) but this is where he also says he doesn't think we would be scum together for that post (because it would be strange for one scum to simply quote his buddy's read-list and agree with it). And given that he ends the post with a Vote for Vaimes, it is a little odd he has this take in here also.
You might imagine that I disagree with the statement "Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense." I am wondering if Rhand actually followed that whole exchange with Igno. and if he thought that Eco was doing there what Eco said that he was doing.
I would agree with the statement that KJ is "doing his usual thing" where he questions everything. But I would disagree that that is a reason to town-read him. It's a stupidly easy "meta" to mimic as scum.
Finally, there was that whole "I have no clue" can someone do something, like start a wagon on me....Which promptly led to a wagon on himself. And to which he responded "A bunch of naked votes aren't going to help." Rhand was still saying he didn't have anything to talk about several posts later. In this post he seems to defend himself though, and suggest that he actually got what he wanted. And that he "made people talk about me." Not sure I'm buying that as a defense of yourself. I don't feel like you actually used or tried to use that wagon you generated on yourself to much purpose.
And the final argument against Vaimes here - that Vaimes is taking the "easy" route by throwing Rhand into his pool of suspicion without "taking a real stance," just seems silly. I felt like Vaimes was "taking a stance." And I thought it was perfectly fine for where we were in the game. You don't need a whole lot of reason to vote someone on D1.
So, that was this post.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Goo You said earlier that you thought Jack is town, but also that Eco pushing him made Jack more town. Do you find yourself often using scumreads on people who's alignment you don't know to color your townreads? How often are either of those reads correct?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I ISO'd Rhand and Eco and I plan on doing Axel and HR later.
A note on methodology: I intentionally look only at the big picture when I do these, because the quality of individual posts is not necessarily AI and scum have to follow an overall agenda regardless of how well (or poorly) they are playing. In particular, if "the big picture" gives a different impression than reading the posts as they come does, I consider this a sign of a possible agenda.
Rhand's ISO: His content is very underwhelming, even after he stopped complaining about his own cluelessness. He is consistent in that regard, and I did not see any sign he was only pretending. If he's conning us, he's going for the long con.
Gun to my head, Rhand is town.
Eco's ISO: He has lots of content, most of which is explaining himself ( ) and giving his opinion on (then-)current matters. He is part of a small group of players who had no trouble getting strong-ish scum-reads from early-on: he has been tunnelling Jackrito since RVS (over posts I can't see as possibly AI). Most of Eco's push on Jack has been centered on Jack's first content post, but Eco was already voting and scum(ish)-reading him.
Saying Eco pushed Jack is a bit of an exaggeration though, he doesn't go much farther than making sure we know he's scum-reading him. It could be his playstyle but... since when is it anyone's playstyle to vaguely stare at someone you are hardcore tunnelling and not really do anything to them. Until I ISOd him I had no idea he had disliked Jack this much and for so long. All in all it feels like a placeholder scumread, the type you make up so you don't get into trouble for not doing enough scumhunting.
Gun to my head, Eco is scum.
Vote: Ecophagy
My vote is staying there unless I am given an excellent reason to move it.
@VaGoo You said earlier that you thought Jack is town, but also that Eco pushing him made Jack more town. Do you find yourself often using scumreads on people who's alignment you don't know to color your townreads? How often are either of those reads correct?
You are asking about his playstyle in general, how is this going to help you read him during this game in particular?
Like I said yesterday I feel Axel is town and that post just there added to it.
The more the day goes it looks more likely we end up on Rhand today. He is clearly the main person most of us agree on.
I still don't like Igno for reasons given before. It also bothers me how he accused axel weakly of pretending to be a newbie because he thinks scum do that. Now though the way he is playing comes off massively as a new player in their first game not someone playing for 11 month. They is no desire to work this game out and no hint of his own meta he gave at the start. I know some of you see this as pure, but if you are playing like a newbie on purpose it shoukd be easy to look pure. His last post of giving him a day off just annoyed me in genral also.
I gave my thoughts on Sloth a couple of days ago and stand by it. Ter said something similar which makes me feel more confident. I still want him to give a lot more though.
Still don't like Highroller thought his catch up was bad apart from the one point on Rhand. But like I said before leaving that battle for another day.
Grape I feel ok on don't have my notes atm so will expand on later. He is more null then town though so won go there today.
So my vote likely ends up on Rhand unless he really had a mircale comeback. Not went into detail why I think they are scum I dont think,but that is in my notes also.
I know people will accuse me again of not voting Igno since I clearly scum read them. Main reason being too late in the day to get traction, and too many of you are giving them the benefit of doubt day one which is fair. Tomorrow I expect them to do work though to try and change my mind.
I ISO'd Rhand and Eco and I plan on doing Axel and HR later.
A note on methodology: I intentionally look only at the big picture when I do these, because the quality of individual posts is not necessarily AI and scum have to follow an overall agenda regardless of how well (or poorly) they are playing. In particular, if "the big picture" gives a different impression than reading the posts as they come does, I consider this a sign of a possible agenda.
Rhand's ISO: His content is very underwhelming, even after he stopped complaining about his own cluelessness. He is consistent in that regard, and I did not see any sign he was only pretending. If he's conning us, he's going for the long con.
Gun to my head, Rhand is town.
Eco's ISO: He has lots of content, most of which is explaining himself ( ) and giving his opinion on (then-)current matters. He is part of a small group of players who had no trouble getting strong-ish scum-reads from early-on: he has been tunnelling Jackrito since RVS (over posts I can't see as possibly AI). Most of Eco's push on Jack has been centered on Jack's first content post, but Eco was already voting and scum(ish)-reading him.
Saying Eco pushed Jack is a bit of an exaggeration though, he doesn't go much farther than making sure we know he's scum-reading him. It could be his playstyle but... since when is it anyone's playstyle to vaguely stare at someone you are hardcore tunnelling and not really do anything to them. Until I ISOd him I had no idea he had disliked Jack this much and for so long. All in all it feels like a placeholder scumread, the type you make up so you don't get into trouble for not doing enough scumhunting.
Gun to my head, Eco is scum.
Vote: Ecophagy
My vote is staying there unless I am given an excellent reason to move it.
@VaGoo You said earlier that you thought Jack is town, but also that Eco pushing him made Jack more town. Do you find yourself often using scumreads on people who's alignment you don't know to color your townreads? How often are either of those reads correct?
You are asking about his playstyle in general, how is this going to help you read him during this game in particular?
Tbf what Eco is doing to me is what I'm doing this game to Igno and normally do in general. It's hard for myself personally to convince people so will just keep bringing my issue up to try and get traction. So I expect others also have this issue. It's hard to push the execute on me when most here appear to not scum read me. So don't fault their approuch.
I also personally see agrro pushs like this as town who are tunnel visiose and can't move foward unless given proof. If you remember in Matter I did this to Usami I thinl there were called and you all scum read me for it and I wa town. I think Scum are more likely to spread out attention to have options. If I got killed today and flip town the pressure in them would be high which no scum would want
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@ZDS: It goes to how real the connection is. I've never thought much for the "he's attaching my townreads" read because it's easy and I don't believe very telling.
Likewise, it's easy to fake for scum. Hence the questioning.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
ZDS, you were so close to getting there. I respect the Jackrito read is one of those early game reads that's stronger than it probably should be, and sure I haven't been combing through his posts but it's not like anyone else is interested in voting him (even the people who had him down as scum??) and I've been pretty preoccupied trying to get a handle on the game at large and trying to stop you all killing me. It's easier to poke reads and investigate when you're not fighting for your life.
That being said, his defence of me is going way past appeasement now, it's starting to look like an actual read - since like Grapefruit's read it did waver, but has bounced back. Plus giving up on the Axel wagon (and the Sloth wagon) is limiting his options more than mafia would need to at this stage. While writing #462 I was thinking that I didn't hate the post so much in the cold light of day (but I still don't like it).
I don't like the very passive/insecure approach, but that could easily be personality not alignment. I don't like that he's defaulting to Rhand (when he's the only wagon open) without much of an independent scum read on Rhand (I think), and I think people are giving him a pass without scrutiny.
If I'm honest, I would probably still vote on a Jackrtio wagon because I am desperate for something concrete to orient this game. If I come to a town read on Jack, then it means there's very few mafia actually trying to kill me (TerRaine being my top pick). I guess it means Rhand basically has to be Mafia? Or the team has a lot in ignoramus/HR/KJ who are more peripheral - that isn't logically impossible, and maybe fits with my wagon having dissipated a bit. But there isn't a lot of evidence for it, just PoE/game flow reads which are high variance on Day 1.
Yes, I know I'm reconsidering my read only after you said that you don't like it and I haven't done anything with it. I can argue that Jack's most recent content has been the most convincing (basically the part where he's actively defending me), but realistically you'll just have to suffer the headache.
@Sloth Operating under the assumption you're playing catchup....can you give me a town>scum list. Reasons always welcome but I'll even take a list o'names at this point
Extrapolating on the Jackrito stuff above, I'm going to try some hypothesising on what the world might look like.
Priors: Grapefruit and ZDS as town
Upgrades: gooLagoon and Jackrito to town - I kind of think goo is town apart from killing me, and I'm seeing how things change if Jackrito really is genunine in his reads. This is the "what if" part of the post.
Still in scum range:
Axel - Not a fan of the minutiae dives that allow him to avoid interacting with the thread at large, but realistically I don't think there's enough for a full scum read. Especially since his position is "person who wants Eco dead who many are also willing to vote for" the world feels like he's being set up as the fall guy. He hasn't yet done anything that would call him town, but that's also normal.
TerRaine - I know I don't have meta, but personality read suggests she is a proactive type of player who isn't afraid to get her hands dirty.
Killjoy - Very peripheral, I said he had some good looking progressions but I think he's still within range as well.
Not Enough Info:
Ignoramus: Objectively scummy, but also comes across as inexperienced.
Sloth: Nothing to go on. If he is scum, he's happy enough with the game state to not even need to post to defend himself, so I guess keep an eye on that if it turns out D1 was all town wagons.
Highroller: Could be in the above group - there's not much to go on, but at least I know where he stands on some things.
Still Scummy:
Rhand
Realtive to the centre of the universe:
Want Eco dead - ZDS, Axel, gooLagoon, TerRaine, Ignoramus
Want Eco alive - Rhand, Jackrito, Grapefruit, Killjoy
No strong opinion on Eco - Highroller, Sloth
* Was going to put KJ in "no strong opinion" but turns out #400 has me as his top town read. He's just not trying very hard to have me not dead.
So combining that with the above alignment reads, I get:
Want Eco dead: 3T, 1S, 1 Null/?
Want Eco alive: 2T, 1S, 1?
No opinion: 2 Null
That's a pretty cool spread. I could definitely buy that my wagon is mostly town driven with one scum on it (TerRain > ignoramus, but could be both). More likely 1-0 scum want me alive - could definitely buy Rhand as the offensive option or KJ as the defensive option. Obviously either Sloth or HR could be scum, but HR is at least against Ter even if he isn't for me.
I realise this is all me basically saying "let's make some assumptions and see what it looks like" which makes it all very presumptive, but ultimately I guess it makes me feel better about my reads on Jack and goo moving towards town, and maybe Axel too. Because I don't think I'm being pushed by 3 mafia, and probability alone says at least one of them doesn't want me dead. Although I guess for most people Axel is the clear scum in people who want Eco dead, but I don't think I buy it. It also tells me I need to be looking harder at KJ and ignoramus, and would really like HR and Sloth to make their alignments more obvious - starting with whether they want me dead or alive.
That's basically a very complicated way of saying I think 1-2 scum are trying to kill me, 1 ish scum want me alive and 0-1 scum haven't said yet - and how I think fits into that.
I've lost the bleeps, I've lost the sweeps, and I've lost the creeps.
Ecophagy (2): Axelrod, gooLagoon
Slothful (2): Grapefruit21, Killjoy
Axelrod (2): ZeDorkSlipeur, TerRaine
Rhand (2): Slothful, Ecophagy
TerRaine (1): Highroller
gooLagoon (1): Rhand
Not Voting (2): ignoramus, Jackrito
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to eject!
Day 1 deadline is Saturday, February 6th, at 2:00pm MST
Please inform me if there are any errors in votecounts.
Additionally, if you have a question for me, the most consistent way to quickly get my attention is to ping me on Discord.
Unvote
The timing of Axel's case and vote was probably more coincidental than I initially knee-jerkingly thought. The analysis still reads like it was written with the intent to justify the vote at the end, but , that's subjective.
@goo: I'm for running up someone in the Eco/Axel/Rhand/HR group and will (re)vote accordingly.
@Ter: Why are you so secretive about whatever Axel did that's so bad? Are you learning anything from the answers you get?
@Highroller: Why do you take goo's claim at face value? He could be memeing.
For the same reason, why do you expect the real cop (if applicable) to counterclaim?
Re #490: you have lots of strong opinions, please back them up.
Are you still scumreading Ter? Apparently she didn't say much that caught your eye.
@Axel: Why do you focus on analysing small events? What do you expect to learn from the gooRhand argument?
(What is "anti-meta"? )
@Igno: Even if you don't have reads or if they don't stay long, try to leave some kind of trail. For example if someone makes a good / bad argument say it, if you agree / disagree with someone say it, if a post let an impression of any kind on you say it, etc.
By the way, Ter is a darn good woof and so are many players here (including myself). If you are town (which I currently think) I advise against sheeping anyone in this game. If you think you only need to be paranoid of Rhand you will be sorry before long.
****.
———
Tentative TSlist sponsored by sleep-deprivation:
Town?
Grape, Igno, Jack, KJ
Null
goo, Sloth, Ter
Axel, Eco, HR, Rhand
Scum
I want to review at least the bottom four, if I have time.
Doesn't mean I think I'm wrong.
My main point is Rhand would benefit from being right about me AND get a headstart on attacking people voting me so it looks more organic (maybe that's why he started with least-likely-to-succeed-D1-target gooLagoon???). It's a good point that that makes it difficult to fit a scum team into the space around peopel trying to kill me, but I guess we can't work that out anyway without some bodies.
I saw that too. I think all that tells is that HR/Rhand, GF/Rhand, and maybe HR/GF are not w/w? I'm not sure that's particularly useful information though.
Unvote, vote Rhand
Get someone to L-2 already, you goddamn cowards. Preferably Rhand or Ecophagy. Highroller doesn't have enough content to make his wagon worth it.
Goo what are your feelings on Axelrod?
Yes I do. But I'm not unhappy with goo moving his vote either
Agree on Grapferuit. Do you think it excludes Rhand/HR? I feel like a buddy isn't going to make that kind of mistake as a distancing attack? Unless it was on purpose to distance and then go "oh yeah oops".
Yeah I'm going to stop thinking about this because my brain hurts.
Axelrod and ?
Juicy. Tell me more about Rhand - he was pretty low down your list, but it seemed like little bits rather than any major tells.
Thing is I know he's a good player as either alignment. As of now he seems to be coasting and hedgy.
If he's town, he's not really adding much to our roster and I just don't see much drive to kick it into gear. The info from his flip gives us more than his play has been
If he's scum, we don't really WANT him to kick it into gear.
It would be one thing if he wasn't present (See: Sloth) but he is and there's just not much there to work with.
Also I wasn't a fan of the whole...
Rhand: Hey wagon me!
Goo/Me/someone else?: Ok.
Rhand: ....well....not like that!
In the end...either we hit scum or we misyeet and have a flip and have a wagon to examine and starting point
He's the few. We the many.
But I'm happier I think with Axel
Like I said. I don't have juicy major tells against him. I have small, irksome things and paranoia. The hedging, the downplaying his thoughts, the tiny instances here and there of not reading the game, overall it just feels like he's trying very hard not to commit to much. He's got the 4th highest post count in the game (**** you sloth you don't count here) and I don't feel like there's much substance esp for someone who didn't really get into the spew of fluff at the start.
Vote: Rhand
the more I think about this the more I think it's actually a decent reason to scum read Rhand. And the PoE narrowness isn't as bad as I thought. It's just like Ter and Eco are town and Axel looks a lot better.
Also, all we have right now (and most D1s unless something unusual happens) is small events.
Dunno. I expect to learn if either/or/both of them seem like they're arguing from a good faith perspective.
Well, if "meta" is: player X plays like (this) when they are Town/Scum. Anti-meta is: "I don't think player X is playing the same way that they normally play when they are Town/Scum. Therefore, they must be the other one. Which is even worse then a regular "meta" argument, but as far as I could tell was the entire reason for your vote.
Will actually be paying attention to this game starting tomorrow. So, you know. Look forward to that
Won't that be fun.
Inb4 scum in KJ/Grape - I remember KJ seemed off last I read back in pageeeeeeeee...7.
Wow that's gonna be some reading.
Anyway, ta.
Rhand (4): Slothful, Ecophagy, gooLagoon, Grapefruit21
Slothful (1): Killjoy
Ecophagy (1): Axelrod
Axelrod (1): TerRaine
TerRaine (1): Highroller
gooLagoon (1): Rhand
Not Voting (3): ignoramus, Jackrito, ZeDorkSlipeur
Let me relax in peace, at least for today
I still feel good but her though.
I can't quite follow his thoughts as well as I usually do.
My question then becomes "Then do you think this is scum distancing or a legit find from town? What does it feel like?
You were supposed to convince me I was being paranoid, not enable me!
I don't think they're pretending - as you say they are coming across quite genuinely. I think their experience doesn't seem to be translating into high quality game play. On an objective level their play is pretty scummy - fluctating reads, willingness to sheep, lack of voting, not a lot of investigation: just passive question answering. But as you say, it also seems pretty sincere, so it could just be bad play rather than malicious play. It's why I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt for the time being, especially to see if they're any more useful when there are bodies to use. But I'm also not writing them off forever as town for just being sincere.
TerRaine already said she's like that as both alignments, and I think those adjectives are more commonly a personality read not an alignment read.
@Eco: Fair enough with regard to Ignoramus. I will probably begin treating them samely.
And I'll likely do the same with Ter.
I will have updated reads in the morning. It's late right now
Starting from the top, I don't see the issue Rhand sees with the use of the term "townread" which he feels should just be "read." Especially given the context, which is that Vaimes (apparently) scum-reads me a lot on D1, but I have always been town. It makes sense, under those circumstances to say that he doesn't know how to "townread" me, because that - specifically - is what he hasn't been able to do correctly. There hasn't been a situation where I have been scum for him to contrast it with. This is a small thing, but Rhand is just making it a much bigger issue than it ever should be. Incidentally, it would also be kind of clumsy for scum-Vaimes to suggest I was Town in this way. Why would he even want to do that?
I already said that I liked Jackrito's post also, though I didn't go any further than that. What I liked was an early effort to give a bunch of reads on a bunch of people. This - I feel - comes from a Town mentality more often than a scum one. Obviously not that scum can't and don't do it, but just "more often." Besides that, I felt like these were more than just a bunch of weak surface or "gut" reads. Like there was some actual thought that went into them (regardless of whether I agree or disagree). It's nothing huge, and certainly did not make Jack "clear", but it was a decent post. So I take issue with people who seemed to think it was scummy. Rhand's view in particular here - that he didn't like it because it had "too much suspicion" in it for that point in the game, makes no sense to me.
Now, Rhand's larger point was that he didn't like the fact that Vaimes was town-reading Jackrito over it. It was more an attack on Vaimes. And while, like I said, I certainly wouldn't have "cleared" Jack on that post alone, I don't really care that Vaimes expressed a stronger opinion about it.
Then he suggests that I might have been "buddying" Vaimes with my post where I just quoted his read-list and agreed with it. That, of course, would make me the scum (for buddying) but this is where he also says he doesn't think we would be scum together for that post (because it would be strange for one scum to simply quote his buddy's read-list and agree with it). And given that he ends the post with a Vote for Vaimes, it is a little odd he has this take in here also.
You might imagine that I disagree with the statement "Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense." I am wondering if Rhand actually followed that whole exchange with Igno. and if he thought that Eco was doing there what Eco said that he was doing.
I would agree with the statement that KJ is "doing his usual thing" where he questions everything. But I would disagree that that is a reason to town-read him. It's a stupidly easy "meta" to mimic as scum.
Finally, there was that whole "I have no clue" can someone do something, like start a wagon on me....Which promptly led to a wagon on himself. And to which he responded "A bunch of naked votes aren't going to help." Rhand was still saying he didn't have anything to talk about several posts later. In this post he seems to defend himself though, and suggest that he actually got what he wanted. And that he "made people talk about me." Not sure I'm buying that as a defense of yourself. I don't feel like you actually used or tried to use that wagon you generated on yourself to much purpose.
And the final argument against Vaimes here - that Vaimes is taking the "easy" route by throwing Rhand into his pool of suspicion without "taking a real stance," just seems silly. I felt like Vaimes was "taking a stance." And I thought it was perfectly fine for where we were in the game. You don't need a whole lot of reason to vote someone on D1.
So, that was this post.
A note on methodology: I intentionally look only at the big picture when I do these, because the quality of individual posts is not necessarily AI and scum have to follow an overall agenda regardless of how well (or poorly) they are playing. In particular, if "the big picture" gives a different impression than reading the posts as they come does, I consider this a sign of a possible agenda.
Rhand's ISO: His content is very underwhelming, even after he stopped complaining about his own cluelessness. He is consistent in that regard, and I did not see any sign he was only pretending. If he's conning us, he's going for the long con.
Gun to my head, Rhand is town.
Eco's ISO: He has lots of content, most of which is explaining himself ( ) and giving his opinion on (then-)current matters. He is part of a small group of players who had no trouble getting strong-ish scum-reads from early-on: he has been tunnelling Jackrito since RVS (over posts I can't see as possibly AI). Most of Eco's push on Jack has been centered on Jack's first content post, but Eco was already voting and scum(ish)-reading him.
Saying Eco pushed Jack is a bit of an exaggeration though, he doesn't go much farther than making sure we know he's scum-reading him. It could be his playstyle but... since when is it anyone's playstyle to vaguely stare at someone you are hardcore tunnelling and not really do anything to them. Until I ISOd him I had no idea he had disliked Jack this much and for so long. All in all it feels like a placeholder scumread, the type you make up so you don't get into trouble for not doing enough scumhunting.
Gun to my head, Eco is scum.
Vote: Ecophagy
My vote is staying there unless I am given an excellent reason to move it.
———
Would "scum-Rhand not kicked into gear" take this form?
You are asking about his playstyle in general, how is this going to help you read him during this game in particular?
The more the day goes it looks more likely we end up on Rhand today. He is clearly the main person most of us agree on.
I still don't like Igno for reasons given before. It also bothers me how he accused axel weakly of pretending to be a newbie because he thinks scum do that. Now though the way he is playing comes off massively as a new player in their first game not someone playing for 11 month. They is no desire to work this game out and no hint of his own meta he gave at the start. I know some of you see this as pure, but if you are playing like a newbie on purpose it shoukd be easy to look pure. His last post of giving him a day off just annoyed me in genral also.
I gave my thoughts on Sloth a couple of days ago and stand by it. Ter said something similar which makes me feel more confident. I still want him to give a lot more though.
Still don't like Highroller thought his catch up was bad apart from the one point on Rhand. But like I said before leaving that battle for another day.
Grape I feel ok on don't have my notes atm so will expand on later. He is more null then town though so won go there today.
So my vote likely ends up on Rhand unless he really had a mircale comeback. Not went into detail why I think they are scum I dont think,but that is in my notes also.
I know people will accuse me again of not voting Igno since I clearly scum read them. Main reason being too late in the day to get traction, and too many of you are giving them the benefit of doubt day one which is fair. Tomorrow I expect them to do work though to try and change my mind.
Tbf what Eco is doing to me is what I'm doing this game to Igno and normally do in general. It's hard for myself personally to convince people so will just keep bringing my issue up to try and get traction. So I expect others also have this issue. It's hard to push the execute on me when most here appear to not scum read me. So don't fault their approuch.
I also personally see agrro pushs like this as town who are tunnel visiose and can't move foward unless given proof. If you remember in Matter I did this to Usami I thinl there were called and you all scum read me for it and I wa town. I think Scum are more likely to spread out attention to have options. If I got killed today and flip town the pressure in them would be high which no scum would want
Likewise, it's easy to fake for scum. Hence the questioning.
That being said, his defence of me is going way past appeasement now, it's starting to look like an actual read - since like Grapefruit's read it did waver, but has bounced back. Plus giving up on the Axel wagon (and the Sloth wagon) is limiting his options more than mafia would need to at this stage. While writing #462 I was thinking that I didn't hate the post so much in the cold light of day (but I still don't like it).
I don't like the very passive/insecure approach, but that could easily be personality not alignment. I don't like that he's defaulting to Rhand (when he's the only wagon open) without much of an independent scum read on Rhand (I think), and I think people are giving him a pass without scrutiny.
If I'm honest, I would probably still vote on a Jackrtio wagon because I am desperate for something concrete to orient this game. If I come to a town read on Jack, then it means there's very few mafia actually trying to kill me (TerRaine being my top pick). I guess it means Rhand basically has to be Mafia? Or the team has a lot in ignoramus/HR/KJ who are more peripheral - that isn't logically impossible, and maybe fits with my wagon having dissipated a bit. But there isn't a lot of evidence for it, just PoE/game flow reads which are high variance on Day 1.
Yes, I know I'm reconsidering my read only after you said that you don't like it and I haven't done anything with it. I can argue that Jack's most recent content has been the most convincing (basically the part where he's actively defending me), but realistically you'll just have to suffer the headache.
No idea. Not sure if I even been in a scum!rhand game so *shrugs*
Priors: Grapefruit and ZDS as town
Upgrades: gooLagoon and Jackrito to town - I kind of think goo is town apart from killing me, and I'm seeing how things change if Jackrito really is genunine in his reads. This is the "what if" part of the post.
Still in scum range:
Axel - Not a fan of the minutiae dives that allow him to avoid interacting with the thread at large, but realistically I don't think there's enough for a full scum read. Especially since his position is "person who wants Eco dead who many are also willing to vote for" the world feels like he's being set up as the fall guy. He hasn't yet done anything that would call him town, but that's also normal.
TerRaine - I know I don't have meta, but personality read suggests she is a proactive type of player who isn't afraid to get her hands dirty.
Killjoy - Very peripheral, I said he had some good looking progressions but I think he's still within range as well.
Not Enough Info:
Ignoramus: Objectively scummy, but also comes across as inexperienced.
Sloth: Nothing to go on. If he is scum, he's happy enough with the game state to not even need to post to defend himself, so I guess keep an eye on that if it turns out D1 was all town wagons.
Highroller: Could be in the above group - there's not much to go on, but at least I know where he stands on some things.
Still Scummy:
Rhand
Realtive to the centre of the universe:
Want Eco dead - ZDS, Axel, gooLagoon, TerRaine, Ignoramus
Want Eco alive - Rhand, Jackrito, Grapefruit, Killjoy
No strong opinion on Eco - Highroller, Sloth
* Was going to put KJ in "no strong opinion" but turns out #400 has me as his top town read. He's just not trying very hard to have me not dead.
So combining that with the above alignment reads, I get:
Want Eco dead: 3T, 1S, 1 Null/?
Want Eco alive: 2T, 1S, 1?
No opinion: 2 Null
That's a pretty cool spread. I could definitely buy that my wagon is mostly town driven with one scum on it (TerRain > ignoramus, but could be both). More likely 1-0 scum want me alive - could definitely buy Rhand as the offensive option or KJ as the defensive option. Obviously either Sloth or HR could be scum, but HR is at least against Ter even if he isn't for me.
I realise this is all me basically saying "let's make some assumptions and see what it looks like" which makes it all very presumptive, but ultimately I guess it makes me feel better about my reads on Jack and goo moving towards town, and maybe Axel too. Because I don't think I'm being pushed by 3 mafia, and probability alone says at least one of them doesn't want me dead. Although I guess for most people Axel is the clear scum in people who want Eco dead, but I don't think I buy it. It also tells me I need to be looking harder at KJ and ignoramus, and would really like HR and Sloth to make their alignments more obvious - starting with whether they want me dead or alive.
But we're entering the last 24 hours before Night, and Rhand is sitting pretty at four votes.