I won't be able to post properly till later tonight/ tomorrow. Which is when I will catch up better rather then skim read.
Atm though my reads are not that different. I'm semi doubling down on my Eco town read even though it goes aganist what I said eariler about voting there. I thought about it and can't really explain right now, but I don't see their work this game as scum like espically their giant post on everyone. Slso hen two big egos clash like them and Ter in my exp it os normally town also. People who strongly scummy ad me early and push it non stop are normally town also. I know my play can annoy people and will scumread me for it. So I have no intrest in voting them today.
I also changed my mind on Sloth and think they are town for dumb reasons. He is annoying me this game sure with being so little impact. I think this is more likely to come from his town play though. As scum I would expect him to try more out of respect to team. Only tine I saw him as scum he was the driving force of his team. I don't think he is the type to low effort when in a small team. You all know him better though do could be wrong.
I'm also accepting that I'm likely wrong on High roller, and will vote elsewhere later. Multiple people have told me now this is NAI.
This leaves me with Igno Axel Rhand and Grape. When free later I intend to look at them in more detail. I'm not saying all are scum but I don't see any as town right now.
A bunch of people have posted since I started this like 3 hours ago but I'm posting it anyway as a reference for future me.
Mehhh
Town
Grape!
KJ, Eco, HR
ZDS, Ignoramus
VaGoo, Axel
Rhand, Jack, Ter
Sloth
Scum
Goo and Axel are null my gut says town on, Rhand, Jack, and Ter are null my gut doesn't feel strongly about.
Let me ask you also. What, exactly makes you lean Town on HR at this moment?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Let me ask you also. What, exactly makes you lean Town on HR at this moment?
It's a soft read on a couple of things. First I feel very comfortable reading HR on very little. I think he's basically a WYSIWG player. Second 257 has a few good signs: the attacks on Eco's attackers follow HR's natural style of play, especially when paired with his questioning of Eco not believing the cop claim. That is a guy out their fighting with everyone. Second his FOS on me for town reading KJ is the most HR thing I can imagine. But really it's mostly him being a pretty straightforward guy and actively fighting both sides of the Eco/Ter dust up.
There is of course a chance that it's a town/town spat and in scum!HR's best interest to egg the fight on without committing to town reading either but he's an innocent until proven guilty player for me at this point.
Everyone do this. But don't say what the issue is. Just say if you see it or not. It's much more mysterious and fun that way.
/I think I need to go to bed.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
• Axel being so pushy about Eco is uncharacteristic for him, especially on Day 1. His case, while good, is not that strong, and Grape's interpretation of the Ecognorimus interaction is logically valid (as in "it may be correct", not as in "it is correct for sure").
It also gives me pause that Axel jumped straight to casing Eco and voting him over a single event from 300 posts ago, when Eco has a lot of content and many pros and cons. Coming from anyone it would be suspicious, coming from Axel (who, as town, hates jumping to conclusions) it is doubly so.
• On Goo VS Rhand, I agree with Goo it would be more logical for Rhand to sort Axel a little higher (even if he has to dedicate a category to him). That being said, how does scum-Rhand benefit from being illogical here? It's not as if it would prevent him from voting Axel after a town-Goo flip, or at any point for that matter.
I don't really understand why you're so insistent on forcing a read on me right now other than because it bothers you.
Because you were the only one I could see having a scum mindset. Also, you've done multiple things that were , but none that were scummy for sure, so I can neither ignore you nor crusade against you.
This is the chain of events I was referring to. The consistent through line is pretty clear to me. Eco initially soft clears him while asking leading questions to generate content for others to analyze, then the situation changes and his initial questions aren't that relevant because it turned out Igno wasn't in fact a new player and those questions were specific to the assumption that he was new town.
My issue with this is how quickly it happened, Eco switched right away from figuring out Igno to guiding the newb town even though their response wasn't that telling. Which, to be fair, could be sloppy town play (making assumptions and jumping to conclusions).
Mine's more like this! Townie
Killjoy (if their goal was to pocket me they've succeeded :sweat:)
Town Seeming
Axel
Lagoon
Ter
Upper Null
Rhand
Jack
Grape
ZDS
Lower Null
Highroller
Sloth
Scumish
Eco
Scum
None
What made you change your mind regarding Axel and Eco?
———
Unvote
Vote: Axelrod
IGMEOY: Ecophagy
unvote
My reason for changing my mind on Axel was because of a read someone else made - apparently if Axel starts to give out some good analysis about mid-D1 he's much more likely to be town. I'm still not so sure on this read someone else made, because he seems to be pretty experienced so this may ops till be in his woof-range, but I'm willing to sheep the read someone made on him.
As for Eco, I'm gonna be really hypocritical but the assumptions he's made wrt to me are worse than mine by quite a margin. Those kid gloves are kinda because of how he went along with that string of posts he made, similar to how many woofs would go "okayI asked about this now my work here is done."
Hey ignoramus, have you quantified your experience yet? I know you've played before, bit how many games, approx?
And can you link a town and a scum game?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You say my reasons for scum reading you are flimsy...ok.
Then refute them.
You don't bother offering up a counter argument for me to even consider. You assigning a disparaging adjective against an accusation doesn't convince me of anything. It's dismissive and comes across as avoidance.
I've not been bothering to engage with because I don't believe it will be productive. You're either mafia who has decided I am your target for the Day, or Town who is so deep in the hole they can't/won't review me objectively. Like, you seem to have totally missed the irony of shouting "REFUTE ME" while also singling out exactly two statements (one of which is clearly speculative and not important) and not responding to the rest.
But since you asked and went to the effort of snipping my wall I will reciprocate.
I do not like this at all. Comes off as defensive and triggered. No one said anything about counterclaiming…so why the bristled reaction?
I don't get how this is scummy. I was making it clear that I wasn't counterclaiming because I didn't want anyone to think that's why I didn't believe the cop claim. I don't disagree that it was awkward and maybe unnecessary. But scummy? No.
#277 - calls Jack’s reads weak and appeasing…but isn’t offering anything to counter them. It all seems to be “I don’t like Jack’s posts but can refute anything on it.” He claims theres nothing of value in Jack’s read by providing nothing of value to show why they could be wrong
I don't need to offer a counter to say I think reads are weak. I don't need to refute his reads to dislike the reasons and mindset behind them. They don't even need to be wrong for them to also be scummy.
#286 - His “rolling a read on TerRaine around” comes across as convenient as it only happens AFTER Goo calls him out on being reactionary and then silent on my presence
He throws shade my way but then hedges with saying a scum me would have used this and claimed it a legitimate tell. I said from the start I didn’t see it as a tell but more a odd blip to be prodded. His read on me basically just vomits back what I’ve already said. Theres no meat here
I can't prove it, but I really was thinking about a TerRain read and didn't want to post it until I was comfortable with it, but I was asked so I asnwered. It's pretty unfair to say "how come you didn't give a read until asked?" AND "Man the read you gave when prompted is weak and hedgy". If I'd had a solid read I'd have stated it earlier.
Huh he did.
I guess Vaimes / Eco is never a thing now.
I can’t parse this. Creating a whole world view around someone asking him to ignore certain facts is un-Eco. For both alignments. It’s too compliant.
I wasn't exactly building a whole world around it, it's more that I was trying to make a read list with self-awareness that as the focual point of the game lots of people are wrong and it's natural to want to scum read them. I'd have made a list like that anwyay at some point, but gooLagoon asking me to motivated me to stop worrying that my reads are crap and just churn it out. I was trying to be objective, not ignore facts.
There's also a more prosaic reason for voting you - no-one is interested in TerRaine or Jack wagons, so I might as well vote the read I have which other people might care about. If that changes, my vote most likely would as well.
As for Eco, I'm gonna be really hypocritical but the assumptions he's made wrt to me are worse than mine by quite a margin. Those kid gloves are kinda because of how he went along with that string of posts he made, similar to how many woofs would go "okayI asked about this now my work here is done."
You going to vote me or just passively push my wagon? Is this really how I went from "light town read" to the actual bottom of your scum list? If so, why has it taken until there is a healthy wagon on me for you to voice this opinion?
Hey ignoramus, have you quantified your experience yet? I know you've played before, bit how many games, approx?
And can you link a town and a scum game?
As (I think) I said before, I've been playing for about 10-11 months by now. I'm not sure how many games I've played, though; MU tends to be kinda meh in that department
You say my reasons for scum reading you are flimsy...ok.
Then refute them.
You don't bother offering up a counter argument for me to even consider. You assigning a disparaging adjective against an accusation doesn't convince me of anything. It's dismissive and comes across as avoidance.
I've not been bothering to engage with because I don't believe it will be productive. You're either mafia who has decided I am your target for the Day, or Town who is so deep in the hole they can't/won't review me objectively. Like, you seem to have totally missed the irony of shouting "REFUTE ME" while also singling out exactly two statements (one of which is clearly speculative and not important) and not responding to the rest.
But since you asked and went to the effort of snipping my wall I will reciprocate.
I do not like this at all. Comes off as defensive and triggered. No one said anything about counterclaiming…so why the bristled reaction?
I don't get how this is scummy. I was making it clear that I wasn't counterclaiming because I didn't want anyone to think that's why I didn't believe the cop claim. I don't disagree that it was awkward and maybe unnecessary. But scummy? No.
#277 - calls Jack’s reads weak and appeasing…but isn’t offering anything to counter them. It all seems to be “I don’t like Jack’s posts but can refute anything on it.” He claims theres nothing of value in Jack’s read by providing nothing of value to show why they could be wrong
I don't need to offer a counter to say I think reads are weak. I don't need to refute his reads to dislike the reasons and mindset behind them. They don't even need to be wrong for them to also be scummy.
#286 - His “rolling a read on TerRaine around” comes across as convenient as it only happens AFTER Goo calls him out on being reactionary and then silent on my presence
He throws shade my way but then hedges with saying a scum me would have used this and claimed it a legitimate tell. I said from the start I didn’t see it as a tell but more a odd blip to be prodded. His read on me basically just vomits back what I’ve already said. Theres no meat here
I can't prove it, but I really was thinking about a TerRain read and didn't want to post it until I was comfortable with it, but I was asked so I asnwered. It's pretty unfair to say "how come you didn't give a read until asked?" AND "Man the read you gave when prompted is weak and hedgy". If I'd had a solid read I'd have stated it earlier.
Huh he did.
I guess Vaimes / Eco is never a thing now.
I can’t parse this. Creating a whole world view around someone asking him to ignore certain facts is un-Eco. For both alignments. It’s too compliant.
I wasn't exactly building a whole world around it, it's more that I was trying to make a read list with self-awareness that as the focual point of the game lots of people are wrong and it's natural to want to scum read them. I'd have made a list like that anwyay at some point, but gooLagoon asking me to motivated me to stop worrying that my reads are crap and just churn it out. I was trying to be objective, not ignore facts.
There's also a more prosaic reason for voting you - no-one is interested in TerRaine or Jack wagons, so I might as well vote the read I have which other people might care about. If that changes, my vote most likely would as well.
As for Eco, I'm gonna be really hypocritical but the assumptions he's made wrt to me are worse than mine by quite a margin. Those kid gloves are kinda because of how he went along with that string of posts he made, similar to how many woofs would go "okayI asked about this now my work here is done."
1. You going to vote me or just passively push my wagon? 2. Is this really how I went from "light town read" to the actual bottom of your scum list? 3. If so, why has it taken until there is a healthy wagon on me for you to voice this opinion?
1. Yes
2. You're only at the bottom of my list because everyone in the null area literally just exist. It feels like there's not enough I've seen from them.
3. /shrug
Let's just say when I read up from after class and ended up woof-reading you you already had a wagon.
I've not been bothering to engage with because I don't believe it will be productive. You're either mafia who has decided I am your target for the Day, or Town who is so deep in the hole they can't/won't review me objectively.
How you would know I won't view you objectively when you've never even played with me before?
Like, you seem to have totally missed the irony of shouting "REFUTE ME" while also singling out exactly two statements (one of which is clearly speculative and not important) and not responding to the rest.
This isn't irony. You can make the argument of cherry picking maybe but irony would be me picking things off your wall and saying "this is dumb" and not giving any back up to why I think that.
I don't get how this is scummy. I was making it clear that I wasn't counterclaiming because I didn't want anyone to think that's why I didn't believe the cop claim. I don't disagree that it was awkward and maybe unnecessary. But scummy? No.
It's awkward in a paranoid defensive way which I feel is scummy. No one asked...no one even hinted at counter claiming. It comes across as an overcompensation
I don't need to offer a counter to say I think reads are weak. I don't need to refute his reads to dislike the reasons and mindset behind them. They don't even need to be wrong for them to also be scummy.
Yes. You do. This is my point. You keep throwing adjectives at ***** like they mean anything "These read are weak/flimsy/bad/stupid"
It all comes back to the same thing which they tell us nothing. Tell me WHY you dislike the read. "Its weak BECAUSE..." The name of the game is support your decision and debate not insult and run away.
Estimting the time of arrival (hur hur) is not inherently scummy. It can be sure, but it's not a slam dunk tell.
Of course it's not a slam dunk tell. Nothing I said implies it is. When paired with you jumpy paranoia and inability to defend your reads it stands out though.
I can't prove it, but I really was thinking about a TerRain read and didn't want to post it until I was comfortable with it, but I was asked so I asnwered.
But you weren't asked. Goo (I think it was goo) mentioned it in their read on you as finding it odd and only THEN was there an answer. It's not a huge chasm but there is a difference between being asked a question and seeing someone mention you. There's also a difference between quoting a mention of you/addressing and posting the answer like it just organically being brought up
Yes. You do. This is my point. You keep throwing adjectives at ***** like they mean anything "These read are weak/flimsy/bad/stupid"
It all comes back to the same thing which they tell us nothing. Tell me WHY you dislike the read. "Its weak BECAUSE..." The name of the game is support your decision and debate not insult and run away.
I don't agree, but whatever. I'll be clear: I think Jackrito's real list in #265 is scummy BECAUSE:
Town reading ZDS and TerRaine for "trying to move the game foward and asking the right questions." is weak BECAUSE it is vague AND not uniquely telling of town (certainly not of ZDS, for whom that falls within his meta)
Town reading Lagoon for being "solid" and one point. Nothing wrong there, except the strength of the read doesn't seem to match with the reasoning, and gooLagoon is an easy player to just stick in your town pile.
The town read on Eco feels like appeasement BECAUSE scum don't like to fight and often believe that town reading their accusers will make them reconsider their scum read. Despite it being a town read, it is still hedged. I believe "semi interested why they voted me and asked Ter about me also though." but I'm having trouble articulating why - it's like he's trying to show he's relaxed and doesn't care why I voted him, but it masks a nervousness indicative of a guiltty conscience.
Scum reads on HR and igno are convenient because they are low hanging fruit and therefore prime execute targets for mafia. The reasons are not actually that bad (assuming HR and Jackrito have never played together because this is normal HR), but the context of conveniance makes me suspicious.
Scum reads on Sloth and Grapefruit are convenient because although they are novel, they are also very fencesitty and (to my immediate knowledge) haven't been explored. More GF than Sloth because sloth hasn't posted so can't be followed up on.
In summary, I don't like the post because the town reads he has are vaguely supported, and the strength doesn't match up with the reasoning. His scum reads are either LHF or so fence-sitting as to not count, with bonus scum points for supporting the Rhand wagon without calling Rhand scummy or particpating himself. The overall feeling I get from the reads is that of someone trying to fit with the thread consensus and/or play it safe with reads - Goo/ZDS/TerRaine Town; LHF Mafia reads; ?? on Axel. The only departures are the aforementioned fence-sitting scum reads, and the town read on me that I believe is based in appeasement and conflict avoidance. It looks like this has mostly paid off, since I personally feel people are seeing Jack make an early T/S and thinking "oh cool Jack is town because he's posting inoffensively ok analytical content early on" without critically considering the content itself or the narrative behind it.
But you weren't asked. Goo (I think it was goo) mentioned it in their read on you as finding it odd and only THEN was there an answer. It's not a huge chasm but there is a difference between being asked a question and seeing someone mention you. There's also a difference between quoting a mention of you/addressing and posting the answer like it just organically being brought up
Going back an looking, gooLagoon didn't like that I hadn't voted Jackrito or TerRaine. I was actually already voting Jack, so that didn't need explaining, but I also added why I hadn't TerRaine (which was bascially "I wasn't confident enough in a scum read to vote her over Jack"). So no, it wasn't in response to an explicit question, but I was trying to explain why I hadn't done something goo thought I should have.
I don't agree, but whatever. I'll be clear: I think Jackrito's real list in #265 is scummy BECAUSE:
Thank you. THIS is what I am looking for. It's actual content and meat. I'm sorry if you think it's whatever but I don't live in your head so just saying "I think somethings is weak" isn't telling me anything. It's an unbacked up opinion and in a game of deduction and reading people a flat opinion is as useless to me as a gut read.
Town reading ZDS and TerRaine for "trying to move the game foward and asking the right questions." is weak BECAUSE it is vague AND not uniquely telling of town (certainly not of ZDS, for whom that falls within his meta)
Ok...vague isn't an unfair cop.
@Jack do you have any stronger support behind the town reads now? Have either of us backslipped or nudged ahead on your reads more?
Town reading Lagoon for being "solid" and one point. Nothing wrong there, except the strength of the read doesn't seem to match with the reasoning, and gooLagoon is an easy player to just stick in your town pile.
Goo is an easier played to TR I don't disagree but have you seen him do anything scummy? This early in the game a strong TR on someone who hasn't done anything particularly troublesome isn't that out of the ordinary.
The town read on Eco feels like appeasement BECAUSE scum don't like to fight and often believe that town reading their accusers will make them reconsider their scum read. Despite it being a town read, it is still hedged. I believe "semi interested why they voted me and asked Ter about me also though." but I'm having trouble articulating why - it's like he's trying to show he's relaxed and doesn't care why I voted him, but it masks a nervousness indicative of a guiltty conscience.
I disagree that scum don't like to fight. It really does depend on the player. I know I am an the same abrasive obstinate person in both alignements. Do you have scum!meta on Jack that indicates he's prone to appeasement reads?
Scum reads on HR and igno are convenient because they are low hanging fruit and therefore prime execute targets for mafia. The reasons are not actually that bad (assuming HR and Jackrito have never played together because this is normal HR), but the context of conveniance makes me suspicious.
Why would scum Jack draw attention to HR and Igno as scumreads if the scum team is looking to NK these slots? LHF for scum reads means they're prime for misyeet not NK. NKs tend to me more aimed at suspected PRs and widely townread players you are not going to be able to wagon against.
Scum reads on Sloth and Grapefruit are convenient because although they are novel, they are also very fencesitty and (to my immediate knowledge) haven't been explored. More GF than Sloth because sloth hasn't posted so can't be followed up on.
Can you link me to Jack's post again? I don't recall exactly what was said about these two slots as they've just been rather vacant and I'd need to see the position again to remember it.
You have given me 0 reason to do so until this post.
I shouldn't have to provide a reason for you to be objective, tunneling is something that should be avoided because it tends to make bad reads. But good that we're making progress.
Goo is an easier played to TR I don't disagree but have you seen him do anything scummy? This early in the game a strong TR on someone who hasn't done anything particularly troublesome isn't that out of the ordinary.
That's kind of my point - by itself it's a OK read. In fact, I wouldn't hate it if he'd just gone "ZDS is pushing the game so town" because although it's weak, but it's not a horrible take in the early game. It's that in combination, Jackrito's reads list takes the lowest risk option in basically all positions, and I don't think the justification is adequate explanation for a convenient, low-profile-seeking set of reads.
I disagree that scum don't like to fight. It really does depend on the player. I know I am an the same abrasive obstinate person in both alignements. Do you have scum!meta on Jack that indicates he's prone to appeasement reads?
A teeny weeny bit of meta, but not really. I would say conflict avoidance is the default and it takes a condfident/exrtroverted person to take it on head-to-head.
Why would scum Jack draw attention to HR and Igno as scumreads if the scum team is looking to NK these slots? LHF for scum reads means they're prime for misyeet not NK. NKs tend to me more aimed at suspected PRs and widely townread players you are not going to be able to wagon against.
Sorry, by "prime execute targets for mafia" I meant "people the mafia believe they can easily mis-execute("""mis-yeet""")". I wouldn't expect those 2 to get NK'd without a clearing claim.
Can you link me to Jack's post again? I don't recall exactly what was said about these two slots as they've just been rather vacant and I'd need to see the position again to remember it.
Why did you want to do that?
Are you townreading Axel?
Are you arguing on principle against a bad argument? (If so, what's the point? Can't scum-Axel be "caught for the wrong reasons"?)
Hm. Yeah.
For now, wanna say ZDS is likely town due to irreverence.
You and your SAT words. Why is this an example of irreverence though?
The questions are pointless and bring nothing to the table regardless.
But I believe that ZDS believes something might be revealed by the prodding.
He's like one of those treasure hunters panning for gold in a dirty river, knee deep in grime and working way-too-hard for what might maybe be a tiny speckle of gold.
That could be used to describe me once upon a time. ZDS's questions are usually fairly well thought out in my experience with him. Can I get a couple examples of questions you think are pointless and why?
Literally the post I was quoting when I called him likely town for examples.
"Are you arguing on principle against a bad argument? Can't they be CFTWR?" Do you really need me to spell out why these are pointless? Pass.
I'm making as little effort as possible this game and it's gonna show lol.
@Sloth: Given you think Rhand is scum, (1)what do you think of the people who voted him when asked?
And (2)in the hypothetical vaccuum world, what do you think the fact that Rhand almost got up to claim range so quickly does for his alignment?
It means I'm very interested in them.
Vaimes/Ter/you, right?
Not much to see there yet.
I don't like sorting Ter out quickly, it's always wrong.
I'm...curious about Vaimes, I'm noticing something, but it may be explained by him saying he wouldn't fluff much this game. The Cop claim is interesting, and potentially feels baity.
I'm still curious about your response to me on the Grape stuff. I believe the reasoning you gave, I'm not too sure you arrive at that reasoning without TMI.
What do you mean "vacuum world"? A world where we dont have any info or any information?
Would probably indicate that he's town and at least one scum jumped in.
However, context matters and it all happened pretty much within minutes of Rhand asking for it.
How are you saying I have TMI?
Your reaction makes the most sense as scum that knows the grape thing is BS having TMI-bias and seeing my reaction as something that can be pushed as TMI for a musky choice.
'Cause through the lens of TMI, you see, my reaction looks suspicious since "how could I have/not have known...?" etcetera, etcetera.
(Note: "musky choice"(TM) is OFFICIAL MTGS SLANG for "misyeet")
But yes, in the vacuum world where you don't know Rhand's alignment and he could be town. Are you not taking things like that into consideration when trying to solve him?
• Eco's reads being so ego-filtered, despite the attempt not to OMGUS, is a point in his favour IMO. See for example how he assumes his scumread on Jack has a strong effect on others' read on Jack.
Chances are he is genuinely distraught by the repeated attacks on him since barely-post-RVS. He is making reads that make sense for (town-)him in context, rather than reads that make sense in general (which, if he's scum, would be the more obvious path). The fact he never appeals to emotions and never goes full on "woe is me, I am the top scumread" is also a positive.
None of that is strongly town-telling, but it's still +town.
• Looking back at Rhand's reads, the only thing justifying his scumlean on Axel is "Axel just agreeing with Vaimes’ readslist without adding any input feels like buddying". On the other hand he dedicates an entire paragraph to Goo. So his scumlean on Axel is not merely weaker than the one on Goo, it's so much weaker it doesn't make sense to have them on the same level and to let such a fuss happen about it. (I stand by my previous observation that it would be more coherent for scum-Rhand to avoid this situation, but this still needs clarifying.)
Also I still question his town-read on Eco. "Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense" is obviously a controversial opinion.
• Jack is an extremely non-confrontational player, for the record. He is currently firmly within his NAI meta.
How strong do you think it is, ZDS? Or maybe I should be asking, how strong do you think that I think it is?
Considering you cased him by interpreting every micro-step of a single interaction as (possibly) scummy, and considering your own interaction with Grape afterwards, I would say you have the most conviction out of anyone voting (or previously voting) Eco.
While we are on the subject, looking up #275 and earlier posts made me see you had already noted the Ignophagy interaction. Why did you wait so long before analysing it? It's not as if your conclusions would have changed much.
Or, well, I can't account for how strongly you believe in your own reads since you just admitted it was bravado. My only flaw here is originally taking you at your word.
My read on you is stronger than the one on Axel yes. But neither has the strength of “gotcha”.
I feel like we’re still going to be talking about this in lylo lol.
When is the last time you've been alive in LyLo as town?
My reason for changing my mind on Axel was because of a read someone else made - apparently if Axel starts to give out some good analysis about mid-D1 he's much more likely to be town. I'm still not so sure on this read someone else made, because he seems to be pretty experienced so this may ops till be in his woof-range, but I'm willing to sheep the read someone made on him.
As for Eco, I'm gonna be really hypocritical but the assumptions he's made wrt to me are worse than mine by quite a margin. Those kid gloves are kinda because of how he went along with that string of posts he made, similar to how many woofs would go "okayI asked about this now my work here is done."
I made the mid-D1 line. And it's not "he's much more likely to be town" so much as "that's his playstyle".
Anyway, do you intent to spend the entire Day sheeping? How do you decide who to sheep?
Your reaction makes the most sense as scum that knows the grape thing is BS having TMI-bias and seeing my reaction as something that can be pushed as TMI for a musky choice.
How would scum-KJ know the Grape thing was BS ?
(Also "musky choice" is terrible, even worse than Grape's "VaGoo".)
What's wrong with getting someone to claim range a few days before deadline?
Don't like there being such an easy path to quick hammer for scum before I've heard from players I wanna hear from
And did you forget I was already voting Eco (before that point)?
My glasses were not on my face and it was a knee jerk reaction. Brain retained "Eco's at 4 votes" and I thought I saw another so I said something. And now I play with my eyes on. My bad
If it's about bringing up the cop claim out of the blue then saying he wasn't going to bring up the cop claim, look up Eco's post that he's quoting.
I really don't like playing the are they buddies game until I have a flip. I keep saying it's like shooting into the dark for a reason. The risk versus reward balance aint there for me as Town.
Going to be a bit spotty now. Got meetings all day
Anyone that tries to quickhammer would just be vigged or voted out the next Day. Not really worth worrying about; it's more important that we have time to make an informed/collective decision.
@Grapefruit: Since you're living inside my head can you talk to me with Rhand. Do you see what I see or is it entirely paranoia?
I don't think it's entirely paranoia but I think it's something so idiosyncratic to your slot to be almost useless to the broader game even if we're town reading you. Yes he could be trying to pocket you by aligning his reads with yours, while not attempting to save you. That is a possibility but it implies he's scum and not with the people pushing you which requires both the belief that you're town and Ter is town and then needs to be willing to read him on his actions in that world.
I'm at you being town and I feel better about Ter after your interactions with her today but I'm not ready to then make reads based on what scum would be doing in that world.
There is also the problem of what's Rhand's plan in that world. Yes it tracks but pocketing you while letting you die isn't exactly a great utility to him. And he could set up pushes on your town wagon without trying to get you on his side (because who looks at dead villagers posts after all?).
VaGoo is literally one of the worst things my brain has ever had to process. My eyeballs are fired for taking in this information.
I wanted to makes Goomies a thing because it's 80s and whatever but that's not a real mash up.
@Ter is the it the memory jogging part of it? Forgetting about why you weren't talking about something is a scum thing because you're hiding multiple lines of thought but town have very little reason to withhold info so the rare? Alternatively just old fashioned PR fishing in general? I'm not seeing much.
Do you mean not seeing much in general when it comes to Axel or just my point? Where do you currently stand on the Axel front in one or two sentences?
I didn't see much that your point could be.
As for Axel in general the level of detail and effort into the Eco push feels like it's more likely to come from town even if I disagree with the conclusion. No strong read but a gut ping towards town because of the effort and detail.
But quick question: is there a reason people are voting a cop that has yet to be counterclaimed on day one?
Like, if you're a cop and that's why you distrust him, then counterclaim, dude, you just found us a mafia without even using your role. But if you're not, why are you voting for him?
Working all day today and tomorrow. Which isn't leaving a lot of time for this.
I had an idea that the next thing I was going to micro-over-analyze was Vaimes and Rhand and this argument of whether Rhand can scumlean two people who he also thinks aren't scumbuddies, but that is probably going to have to wait.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
But quick question: is there a reason people are voting a cop that has yet to be counterclaimed on day one?
Like, if you're a cop and that's why you distrust him, then counterclaim, dude, you just found us a mafia without even using your role. But if you're not, why are you voting for him?
When you say "people" do you mean "person?" Person who is caught up.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Ignoramus:That scumgame is too short to be exciting, I think
Probably can't get good info from it. Do you have anything from MU? Those games are longer.
@Eco: Ignoramus is pure. Originally I thought they were newb town (like you did) but they might not be I guess? Otherwise, they seem pure, and I'm reading that pretty strongly.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
How strong do you think it is, ZDS? Or maybe I should be asking, how strong do you think that I think it is?
Considering you cased him by interpreting every micro-step of a single interaction as (possibly) scummy, and considering your own interaction with Grape afterwards, I would say you have the most conviction out of anyone voting (or previously voting) Eco.
Well, that doesn't really mean anything does it? Over-analyzing is kind of my thing. The problem I frequently run into though is that people then assume it must be some kind of major case - because I wrote so many words - regardless of what the actual conclusion was.
While we are on the subject, looking up #275 and earlier posts made me see you had already noted the Ignophagy interaction. Why did you wait so long before analysing it? It's not as if your conclusions would have changed much.
I didn't wait "so long." I had a mental note to myself to go back and check that particular sequence of events because (some?) people were already talking about it, and I was getting some bad vibes from Eco. But I also knew it was going to take me awhile to do, because it was going to involve pulling up posts from both of them and also people they were interacting with and reading it all in sequence and context. I was also allowing for the possibility that, when I looked back at it, and Eco's explanations, it was going to come off more reasonable.
Are you really voting me for anti-meta? I have to say, I think that might be a new one.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
• Axel being so pushy about Eco is uncharacteristic for him, especially on Day 1. His case, while good, is not that strong, and Grape's interpretation of the Ecognorimus interaction is logically valid (as in "it may be correct", not as in "it is correct for sure").
It also gives me pause that Axel jumped straight to casing Eco and voting him over a single event from 300 posts ago, when Eco has a lot of content and many pros and cons. Coming from anyone it would be suspicious, coming from Axel (who, as town, hates jumping to conclusions) it is doubly so.
• On Goo VS Rhand, I agree with Goo it would be more logical for Rhand to sort Axel a little higher (even if he has to dedicate a category to him). That being said, how does scum-Rhand benefit from being illogical here? It's not as if it would prevent him from voting Axel after a town-Goo flip, or at any point for that matter.
I don't really understand why you're so insistent on forcing a read on me right now other than because it bothers you.
Because you were the only one I could see having a scum mindset. Also, you've done multiple things that were , but none that were scummy for sure, so I can neither ignore you nor crusade against you.
This is the chain of events I was referring to. The consistent through line is pretty clear to me. Eco initially soft clears him while asking leading questions to generate content for others to analyze, then the situation changes and his initial questions aren't that relevant because it turned out Igno wasn't in fact a new player and those questions were specific to the assumption that he was new town.
My issue with this is how quickly it happened, Eco switched right away from figuring out Igno to guiding the newb town even though their response wasn't that telling. Which, to be fair, could be sloppy town play (making assumptions and jumping to conclusions).
Mine's more like this! Townie
Killjoy (if their goal was to pocket me they've succeeded :sweat:)
Town Seeming
Axel
Lagoon
Ter
Upper Null
Rhand
Jack
Grape
ZDS
Lower Null
Highroller
Sloth
Scumish
Eco
Scum
None
What made you change your mind regarding Axel and Eco?
———
Unvote
Vote: Axelrod
IGMEOY: Ecophagy
unvote
My reason for changing my mind on Axel was because of a read someone else made - apparently if Axel starts to give out some good analysis about mid-D1 he's much more likely to be town. I'm still not so sure on this read someone else made, because he seems to be pretty experienced so this may ops till be in his woof-range, but I'm willing to sheep the read someone made on him.
As for Eco, I'm gonna be really hypocritical but the assumptions he's made wrt to me are worse than mine by quite a margin. Those kid gloves are kinda because of how he went along with that string of posts he made, similar to how many woofs would go "okayI asked about this now my work here is done."
It sounds like you are just willing to sheep reads tbh, and you have said as much yourself. Your whole Eco thing from earlier was you Sheeping ZDS big post on them. I thought that was what made you change your mind on them not what you say here. Also you say after when questioned by Echo. Eco is only bottom for you because everyone else is null or just existing. You just appear to be very non committal and want to be on the good side of everyone and just saying what you think people want to hear. You seem to feel Axel is scum, but are yet again sheeping someone else, do you think he is living to the meta given of good analysis in mid day 1. You seem to rely heavily on meta to get stuff done which I get, but it seems like you just ask for it and never use it yourself.
I gave you room to breath to play your natural game, but you are just sheeping which is bothering me if you have reads push them, I refuse to believe you only see Eco as scum here. I don't fully get your own reason about kids gloves either tbh.
Working all day today and tomorrow. Which isn't leaving a lot of time for this.
I had an idea that the next thing I was going to micro-over-analyze was Vaimes and Rhand and this argument of whether Rhand can scumlean two people who he also thinks aren't scumbuddies, but that is probably going to have to wait.
On the subject of Rhand, you said at one point you did not like their 346 and would expand on it later, did you ever do that because think I missed it if you did when I relooked over game. You sort of went on this Eco hunt after that and not really looked back.
Still going through my rereads I think that I like Axel, after going through him, I see his level of commitment, to this Eco push and the way that he has argued, with people who don't see the same world as him.I see as more likely to come from town, its hard to agrue a world you know that is wrong so strongly when you know a town flip is coming. Which in most caases puts you up next, scum are more likely to play passive and support bad kills then lead them to avoid blame. I wish that he talked about more players though his only focus is Eco, Highroller and Rhand to a much lesser degree. Which were all copied from Lagoon. He is at the bottom of my townreads though.
• Eco's reads being so ego-filtered, despite the attempt not to OMGUS, is a point in his favour IMO. See for example how he assumes his scumread on Jack has a strong effect on others' read on Jack.
Chances are he is genuinely distraught by the repeated attacks on him since barely-post-RVS. He is making reads that make sense for (town-)him in context, rather than reads that make sense in general (which, if he's scum, would be the more obvious path). The fact he never appeals to emotions and never goes full on "woe is me, I am the top scumread" is also a positive.
None of that is strongly town-telling, but it's still +town.
• Looking back at Rhand's reads, the only thing justifying his scumlean on Axel is "Axel just agreeing with Vaimes’ readslist without adding any input feels like buddying". On the other hand he dedicates an entire paragraph to Goo. So his scumlean on Axel is not merely weaker than the one on Goo, it's so much weaker it doesn't make sense to have them on the same level and to let such a fuss happen about it. (I stand by my previous observation that it would be more coherent for scum-Rhand to avoid this situation, but this still needs clarifying.)
Also I still question his town-read on Eco. "Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense" is obviously a controversial opinion.
• Jack is an extremely non-confrontational player, for the record. He is currently firmly within his NAI meta.
How strong do you think it is, ZDS? Or maybe I should be asking, how strong do you think that I think it is?
Considering you cased him by interpreting every micro-step of a single interaction as (possibly) scummy, and considering your own interaction with Grape afterwards, I would say you have the most conviction out of anyone voting (or previously voting) Eco.
While we are on the subject, looking up #275 and earlier posts made me see you had already noted the Ignophagy interaction. Why did you wait so long before analysing it? It's not as if your conclusions would have changed much.
Or, well, I can't account for how strongly you believe in your own reads since you just admitted it was bravado. My only flaw here is originally taking you at your word.
My read on you is stronger than the one on Axel yes. But neither has the strength of “gotcha”.
I feel like we’re still going to be talking about this in lylo lol.
When is the last time you've been alive in LyLo as town?
My reason for changing my mind on Axel was because of a read someone else made - apparently if Axel starts to give out some good analysis about mid-D1 he's much more likely to be town. I'm still not so sure on this read someone else made, because he seems to be pretty experienced so this may ops till be in his woof-range, but I'm willing to sheep the read someone made on him.
As for Eco, I'm gonna be really hypocritical but the assumptions he's made wrt to me are worse than mine by quite a margin. Those kid gloves are kinda because of how he went along with that string of posts he made, similar to how many woofs would go "okayI asked about this now my work here is done."
I made the mid-D1 line. And it's not "he's much more likely to be town" so much as "that's his playstyle".
Anyway, do you intent to spend the entire Day sheeping? How do you decide who to sheep?
Your reaction makes the most sense as scum that knows the grape thing is BS having TMI-bias and seeing my reaction as something that can be pushed as TMI for a musky choice.
How would scum-KJ know the Grape thing was BS ?
(Also "musky choice" is terrible, even worse than Grape's "VaGoo".)
I would normally sheep the person I know here the most, Rhand, but given I'm paranoid about how good they are (they won as woof in the first game I played with them so I'm Nervous), and there's some stuff from them that I will not specify, I'm not willing to sheep them.
My most likely choice wouled be TerRaine and I don't even know why. My gut is just telling me she's probably town, so if I'm still planning to sheep others, it's most likely her.
@Ignoramus:That scumgame is too short to be exciting, I think
Probably can't get good info from it. Do you have anything from MU? Those games are longer.
@Eco: Ignoramus is pure. Originally I thought they were newb town (like you did) but they might not be I guess? Otherwise, they seem pure, and I'm reading that pretty strongly.
• Axel being so pushy about Eco is uncharacteristic for him, especially on Day 1. His case, while good, is not that strong, and Grape's interpretation of the Ecognorimus interaction is logically valid (as in "it may be correct", not as in "it is correct for sure").
It also gives me pause that Axel jumped straight to casing Eco and voting him over a single event from 300 posts ago, when Eco has a lot of content and many pros and cons. Coming from anyone it would be suspicious, coming from Axel (who, as town, hates jumping to conclusions) it is doubly so.
• On Goo VS Rhand, I agree with Goo it would be more logical for Rhand to sort Axel a little higher (even if he has to dedicate a category to him). That being said, how does scum-Rhand benefit from being illogical here? It's not as if it would prevent him from voting Axel after a town-Goo flip, or at any point for that matter.
I don't really understand why you're so insistent on forcing a read on me right now other than because it bothers you.
Because you were the only one I could see having a scum mindset. Also, you've done multiple things that were , but none that were scummy for sure, so I can neither ignore you nor crusade against you.
This is the chain of events I was referring to. The consistent through line is pretty clear to me. Eco initially soft clears him while asking leading questions to generate content for others to analyze, then the situation changes and his initial questions aren't that relevant because it turned out Igno wasn't in fact a new player and those questions were specific to the assumption that he was new town.
My issue with this is how quickly it happened, Eco switched right away from figuring out Igno to guiding the newb town even though their response wasn't that telling. Which, to be fair, could be sloppy town play (making assumptions and jumping to conclusions).
Mine's more like this! Townie
Killjoy (if their goal was to pocket me they've succeeded :sweat:)
Town Seeming
Axel
Lagoon
Ter
Upper Null
Rhand
Jack
Grape
ZDS
Lower Null
Highroller
Sloth
Scumish
Eco
Scum
None
What made you change your mind regarding Axel and Eco?
———
Unvote
Vote: Axelrod
IGMEOY: Ecophagy
unvote
My reason for changing my mind on Axel was because of a read someone else made - apparently if Axel starts to give out some good analysis about mid-D1 he's much more likely to be town. I'm still not so sure on this read someone else made, because he seems to be pretty experienced so this may ops till be in his woof-range, but I'm willing to sheep the read someone made on him.
As for Eco, I'm gonna be really hypocritical but the assumptions he's made wrt to me are worse than mine by quite a margin. Those kid gloves are kinda because of how he went along with that string of posts he made, similar to how many woofs would go "okayI asked about this now my work here is done."
It sounds like you are just willing to sheep reads tbh, and you have said as much yourself. Your whole Eco thing from earlier was you Sheeping ZDS big post on them. I thought that was what made you change your mind on them not what you say here. Also you say after when questioned by Echo. Eco is only bottom for you because everyone else is null or just existing. You just appear to be very non committal and want to be on the good side of everyone and just saying what you think people want to hear. You seem to feel Axel is scum, but are yet again sheeping someone else, do you think he is living to the meta given of good analysis in mid day 1. You seem to rely heavily on meta to get stuff done which I get, but it seems like you just ask for it and never use it yourself.
I gave you room to breath to play your natural game, but you are just sheeping which is bothering me if you have reads push them, I refuse to believe you only see Eco as scum here. I don't fully get your own reason about kids gloves either tbh.
I will be honest with y'all
I have no reads whatsoever, and if I do form some, they don't stay for very long. I'm trying to get some footing, but in between school and being new here, I'm not getting any. Maybe I will in the next day-phase.
I'm confused
Why is Grapefruit crossed out?
And vote: Axel
For reasoning I previously stated, and I haven't seen any other posts from them aside from those GIF posts.
The mod said
No, Grape being replaced by Indy in the above votecount doesn't mean anything gamewise, and is for (likely just my) amusement purposes only.
in the spoiler in #99, so it means nothing. Just the mod shirking his duties by having fun.
@Ignoramus: How familiar are you with this game's players? For example, you know Axelrod is experienced.
Do you have any other reads? For example on Grape who agrees that Axel is wolfy?
Like, seriously? Imagine thinking that a person's mafia based on this.
I don't have a take on Sloth yet. He is the type of player that is hard for me to read because he's generally so easy-going and everything comes off as unforced and natural sounding.
If I'm going to get him, I imagine it will be on bad takes and poor logic when that becomes relevant.
Not a big fan of Highroller recent post and vote, mainly because it is the reverse of my own view on Terr, and it feels like a forced read I can't believe he thinks Terr questions on Eco are too much.
Terr went after Ecophagy five times in less than two hours/16 posts. You regard that as a normal amount?
Is Terrain known as a busser? Because if so, then a Terrain/Eco w/w world's chances are higher.
Highroller going after someone who made a bad early-Day 1 push is... typical Highroller. He's allergic to bad attacks even when it's early Day 1 and everything is flimsy .
At least you're admitting the attack was bad. Good for you!
I am not sure the sequence of events you are describing here follows, but I’m on a phone again and can’t go back through it again right now.
I will also say for the record that I didn’t/don’t believe zoo’s Cop claim either. I don’t see why anyone who doesn’t have a D1 claiming fetish (Highroller) would ever straight up believe it. I do think it’s Town+ for goo though. Mainly because I think it pretty unlikely a mafia starts his game off with a gambit like that.
Kind of like Jack’s last big post too.
How in the balls does that make him town if he's lying about his role?
Not a big fan of Highroller recent post and vote, mainly because it is the reverse of my own view on Terr, and it feels like a forced read I can't believe he thinks Terr questions on Eco are too much.
Terr went after Ecophagy five times in less than two hours/16 posts. You regard that as a normal amount?
That is called applying pressure and a ongoing push that is not unheard of in these games, and moves them forward. It lets us see the mindset of both more clearly, how else do you expect us to get anywhere. Going after someone 5 times in 2 hours as you call it I personally don't see as high either.
Yeah, that's bull. Nothing about Ecophagy's post warranted that kind of response.
I went for Highroller over Ignoramus, because Highroller post that bothered me was recent and stood out to me and is the most fake thing this game imo.
I would say my approach is a mix of both it depends on the person. I tend to give certain people more the benefit of doubt and just hope/assume they are town early. I'm a sucker for hard effort which makes me a easy pocket target for the hard working scum. For greater context on my reads it would be Sloth you and Axel are more null. Grape is a soft scum read and Highroller and Igno being my more higher scum reads.But this game lacks deep content so hard to have really strong scum reads.
... What? I thought I was the most fake thing ever? Why are you now saying you don't have a strong scum read?
[font=georgia]I think if Eco's scum Axel is marginally +town. Shielding him for basically no reason makes them look related (in my biased Eco-is- view), but Axel is a big boy who can defend himself on his own against an ignoramus.
Jack disappearing for ~2 days and miraculously reappearing as soon as Ter asked him a question made me jump, but the analysis dump afterwards was decent and somewhat justifies the absence. It looks like he put thought into these reads and isn't just bull*****ting, like he is capable of doing.
Rhand having a hard time forming opinion is a good thing (to a minor extent), since scum-him could easily throw a couple logical or consensual town reads here or there to pretend he's doing something and hide among the crowd. I think he is legitimately struggling.
Highroller going after someone who made a bad early-Day 1 push is... typical Highroller. He's allergic to bad attacks even when it's early Day 1 and everything is flimsy .
I'm interested why you think I'm capable of BS reads. I can for sure but not sure you have ever seen me do it, to feel so confident that I have ablity to and what makes you feel I'm not here. Also my reappearance is more because of the prod by host.
Semi agree with your Rhand view, its rare for scum to not try and make something up to look town, its harder as town to do this because you are trying to work out the game and would not waste time with fake reads.
On Highroller so you think his weird push is nai and something he would do as either town or scum. So I'm looking way too much into it and should focus elsewhere.
Because he’s my strongest read. I wasn’t looking at wagons when I voted. And I don’t care at this point really.
???
9. Maybe it's because I'm really tired, maybe it's because I'm really oblivious, but I don't see what's going on with Axelrod's posts in 275/6 that TerRaine is pointing out. Can someone explain it to me?
But quick question: is there a reason people are voting a cop that has yet to be counterclaimed on day one?
Like, if you're a cop and that's why you distrust him, then counterclaim, dude, you just found us a mafia without even using your role. But if you're not, why are you voting for him?
When you say "people" do you mean "person?" Person who is caught up.
Yeah, sorry, I mistakenly thought someone else had voted for him somewhere around there. In my defense, I was really tired.
Just going to reply to that last post by Highroller point by point that refer to myself and stuff I find relevant.
2- Why is that Axel post so fake to you and why is that bad, a couple of us feel that way about Sloth in my view.
5- Someone can be lying about a role to create cop cover so scum will try and kill them, some town just like to lie to create chaos also to bait scum into mistakes. I hate it personally lying about a role but it does happen and better to judge off overall play as well.
6 Any response in mafia can lead to anything and be seen unneeded because of our own biased world views. I for example think Ter is town so your attack on them could be considered unneeded, but at the same time I need it because it lets me see your world view and thought patterns if they make sense as town or just scum trying to get a quick kill. This is a game of interactions I don't see the issue in pressuring someone to get reactions especially when game was slow it led to a lot of discussion and game movement.
7/8 Its possible for me to think a post is fake, but you can possibly be town because town can do posts that look fake because they can't articulate themselves well. do I see you as town at the moment no not really, but I don't have a ego or charisma enough to push someone nonstop all day off small post content especially when others say you always do this stuff. If you keep to unimpress me like you are I come back to it at a later date, but atm better to work with others on my other scum reads to try and get something achieveable as a group.
HR does bring up some good points on Rhand tbh about his view on HR slot should be null but is not.
I understand your reads on me and Ter, I assume you think we are Buddy Buddy, and I'm defending them unless you have other reasons to see me as scum. I"m not as sure why you see Axel as scum though, is it because they are attacking Eco heaviy also and you think anyone who does that must be scum, or is it the whole Lagoon cop claim reaction. The Rhand read is fair and likely where this game ends today atm unless something changes.
I want your thoughts in detail about everyone else, you have not really talked about many people this game. I need to know who you townread and why to get a clearer view of your mindset.
@Highroller you might want to reread that “right after” post of mine you quoted.
@ZDS I was alive as town in lylo in my champs semi. Here I can’t remember the last time.
I’m not caught up, just spotted these things in a quick skim. I’ll probably need the weekend to read.
I'm glad Jackrito brought up the fact that Axelrod made a post about commenting on Rhand's big post later. I was going to ask that myself sometime before deadline.
I'm glad Jackrito brought up the fact that Axelrod made a post about commenting on Rhand's big post later. I was going to ask that myself sometime before deadline.
He still hasn’t? Has Sloth at least explained his vote?
I will say...the lack of focus from him makes me lean slightly Town on him. I feel like he wouldn't leave his scum buddies high and dry like this unless one of them is very much adept at their scum game.
I will say...the lack of focus from him makes me lean slightly Town on him. I feel like he wouldn't leave his scum buddies high and dry like this unless one of them is very much adept at their scum game.
Atm though my reads are not that different. I'm semi doubling down on my Eco town read even though it goes aganist what I said eariler about voting there. I thought about it and can't really explain right now, but I don't see their work this game as scum like espically their giant post on everyone. Slso hen two big egos clash like them and Ter in my exp it os normally town also. People who strongly scummy ad me early and push it non stop are normally town also. I know my play can annoy people and will scumread me for it. So I have no intrest in voting them today.
I also changed my mind on Sloth and think they are town for dumb reasons. He is annoying me this game sure with being so little impact. I think this is more likely to come from his town play though. As scum I would expect him to try more out of respect to team. Only tine I saw him as scum he was the driving force of his team. I don't think he is the type to low effort when in a small team. You all know him better though do could be wrong.
I'm also accepting that I'm likely wrong on High roller, and will vote elsewhere later. Multiple people have told me now this is NAI.
This leaves me with Igno Axel Rhand and Grape. When free later I intend to look at them in more detail. I'm not saying all are scum but I don't see any as town right now.
Please look at 275/6.
Anyone else see the issue?
It's a soft read on a couple of things. First I feel very comfortable reading HR on very little. I think he's basically a WYSIWG player. Second 257 has a few good signs: the attacks on Eco's attackers follow HR's natural style of play, especially when paired with his questioning of Eco not believing the cop claim. That is a guy out their fighting with everyone. Second his FOS on me for town reading KJ is the most HR thing I can imagine. But really it's mostly him being a pretty straightforward guy and actively fighting both sides of the Eco/Ter dust up.
/I think I need to go to bed.
unvote
My reason for changing my mind on Axel was because of a read someone else made - apparently if Axel starts to give out some good analysis about mid-D1 he's much more likely to be town. I'm still not so sure on this read someone else made, because he seems to be pretty experienced so this may ops till be in his woof-range, but I'm willing to sheep the read someone made on him.
As for Eco, I'm gonna be really hypocritical but the assumptions he's made wrt to me are worse than mine by quite a margin. Those kid gloves are kinda because of how he went along with that string of posts he made, similar to how many woofs would go "okayI asked about this now my work here is done."
And can you link a town and a scum game?
I've not been bothering to engage with because I don't believe it will be productive. You're either mafia who has decided I am your target for the Day, or Town who is so deep in the hole they can't/won't review me objectively. Like, you seem to have totally missed the irony of shouting "REFUTE ME" while also singling out exactly two statements (one of which is clearly speculative and not important) and not responding to the rest.
But since you asked and went to the effort of snipping my wall I will reciprocate.
I don't get how this is scummy. I was making it clear that I wasn't counterclaiming because I didn't want anyone to think that's why I didn't believe the cop claim. I don't disagree that it was awkward and maybe unnecessary. But scummy? No.
I don't need to offer a counter to say I think reads are weak. I don't need to refute his reads to dislike the reasons and mindset behind them. They don't even need to be wrong for them to also be scummy.
Estimting the time of arrival (hur hur) is not inherently scummy. It can be sure, but it's not a slam dunk tell.
I can't prove it, but I really was thinking about a TerRain read and didn't want to post it until I was comfortable with it, but I was asked so I asnwered. It's pretty unfair to say "how come you didn't give a read until asked?" AND "Man the read you gave when prompted is weak and hedgy". If I'd had a solid read I'd have stated it earlier.
#271 - Rhand goes into detail about how nothing in the game has been of analytical value to him
#346 - Rhand makes a read list
I wasn't exactly building a whole world around it, it's more that I was trying to make a read list with self-awareness that as the focual point of the game lots of people are wrong and it's natural to want to scum read them. I'd have made a list like that anwyay at some point, but gooLagoon asking me to motivated me to stop worrying that my reads are crap and just churn it out. I was trying to be objective, not ignore facts.
There's also a more prosaic reason for voting you - no-one is interested in TerRaine or Jack wagons, so I might as well vote the read I have which other people might care about. If that changes, my vote most likely would as well.
You going to vote me or just passively push my wagon? Is this really how I went from "light town read" to the actual bottom of your scum list? If so, why has it taken until there is a healthy wagon on me for you to voice this opinion?
As (I think) I said before, I've been playing for about 10-11 months by now. I'm not sure how many games I've played, though; MU tends to be kinda meh in that department
Latest town-game of mine: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/29301
Latest woof-game of mine (I'm Nagisa): https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/undecimber-2020-mafia-ended-mafia-victory.666494/page-16#post-16015106
1. Yes
2. You're only at the bottom of my list because everyone in the null area literally just exist. It feels like there's not enough I've seen from them.
3. /shrug
Let's just say when I read up from after class and ended up woof-reading you you already had a wagon.
How you would know I won't view you objectively when you've never even played with me before?
This isn't irony. You can make the argument of cherry picking maybe but irony would be me picking things off your wall and saying "this is dumb" and not giving any back up to why I think that.
It's awkward in a paranoid defensive way which I feel is scummy. No one asked...no one even hinted at counter claiming. It comes across as an overcompensation
Yes. You do. This is my point. You keep throwing adjectives at ***** like they mean anything "These read are weak/flimsy/bad/stupid"
It all comes back to the same thing which they tell us nothing. Tell me WHY you dislike the read. "Its weak BECAUSE..." The name of the game is support your decision and debate not insult and run away.
Of course it's not a slam dunk tell. Nothing I said implies it is. When paired with you jumpy paranoia and inability to defend your reads it stands out though.
But you weren't asked. Goo (I think it was goo) mentioned it in their read on you as finding it odd and only THEN was there an answer. It's not a huge chasm but there is a difference between being asked a question and seeing someone mention you. There's also a difference between quoting a mention of you/addressing and posting the answer like it just organically being brought up
Well, you haven't so far, so by induction...
I don't agree, but whatever. I'll be clear: I think Jackrito's real list in #265 is scummy BECAUSE:
In summary, I don't like the post because the town reads he has are vaguely supported, and the strength doesn't match up with the reasoning. His scum reads are either LHF or so fence-sitting as to not count, with bonus scum points for supporting the Rhand wagon without calling Rhand scummy or particpating himself. The overall feeling I get from the reads is that of someone trying to fit with the thread consensus and/or play it safe with reads - Goo/ZDS/TerRaine Town; LHF Mafia reads; ?? on Axel. The only departures are the aforementioned fence-sitting scum reads, and the town read on me that I believe is based in appeasement and conflict avoidance. It looks like this has mostly paid off, since I personally feel people are seeing Jack make an early T/S and thinking "oh cool Jack is town because he's posting inoffensively ok analytical content early on" without critically considering the content itself or the narrative behind it.
Going back an looking, gooLagoon didn't like that I hadn't voted Jackrito or TerRaine. I was actually already voting Jack, so that didn't need explaining, but I also added why I hadn't TerRaine (which was bascially "I wasn't confident enough in a scum read to vote her over Jack"). So no, it wasn't in response to an explicit question, but I was trying to explain why I hadn't done something goo thought I should have.
You have given me 0 reason to do so until this post.
Thank you. THIS is what I am looking for. It's actual content and meat. I'm sorry if you think it's whatever but I don't live in your head so just saying "I think somethings is weak" isn't telling me anything. It's an unbacked up opinion and in a game of deduction and reading people a flat opinion is as useless to me as a gut read.
Ok...vague isn't an unfair cop.
@Jack do you have any stronger support behind the town reads now? Have either of us backslipped or nudged ahead on your reads more?
Goo is an easier played to TR I don't disagree but have you seen him do anything scummy? This early in the game a strong TR on someone who hasn't done anything particularly troublesome isn't that out of the ordinary.
I disagree that scum don't like to fight. It really does depend on the player. I know I am an the same abrasive obstinate person in both alignements. Do you have scum!meta on Jack that indicates he's prone to appeasement reads?
Why would scum Jack draw attention to HR and Igno as scumreads if the scum team is looking to NK these slots? LHF for scum reads means they're prime for misyeet not NK. NKs tend to me more aimed at suspected PRs and widely townread players you are not going to be able to wagon against.
Can you link me to Jack's post again? I don't recall exactly what was said about these two slots as they've just been rather vacant and I'd need to see the position again to remember it.
I shouldn't have to provide a reason for you to be objective, tunneling is something that should be avoided because it tends to make bad reads. But good that we're making progress.
That's kind of my point - by itself it's a OK read. In fact, I wouldn't hate it if he'd just gone "ZDS is pushing the game so town" because although it's weak, but it's not a horrible take in the early game. It's that in combination, Jackrito's reads list takes the lowest risk option in basically all positions, and I don't think the justification is adequate explanation for a convenient, low-profile-seeking set of reads.
A teeny weeny bit of meta, but not really. I would say conflict avoidance is the default and it takes a condfident/exrtroverted person to take it on head-to-head.
Sorry, by "prime execute targets for mafia" I meant "people the mafia believe they can easily mis-execute("""mis-yeet""")". I wouldn't expect those 2 to get NK'd without a clearing claim.
#265
"Are you arguing on principle against a bad argument? Can't they be CFTWR?" Do you really need me to spell out why these are pointless? Pass.
I'm making as little effort as possible this game and it's gonna show lol.
Look at the postcount and remember I haven't posted in 4 days.
'Cause through the lens of TMI, you see, my reaction looks suspicious since "how could I have/not have known...?" etcetera, etcetera.
(Note: "musky choice"(TM) is OFFICIAL MTGS SLANG for "misyeet")
Course I am.
Chances are he is genuinely distraught by the repeated attacks on him since barely-post-RVS. He is making reads that make sense for (town-)him in context, rather than reads that make sense in general (which, if he's scum, would be the more obvious path). The fact he never appeals to emotions and never goes full on "woe is me, I am the top scumread" is also a positive.
None of that is strongly town-telling, but it's still +town.
• Looking back at Rhand's reads, the only thing justifying his scumlean on Axel is "Axel just agreeing with Vaimes’ readslist without adding any input feels like buddying". On the other hand he dedicates an entire paragraph to Goo. So his scumlean on Axel is not merely weaker than the one on Goo, it's so much weaker it doesn't make sense to have them on the same level and to let such a fuss happen about it. (I stand by my previous observation that it would be more coherent for scum-Rhand to avoid this situation, but this still needs clarifying.)
Also I still question his town-read on Eco. "Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense" is obviously a controversial opinion.
• Jack is an extremely non-confrontational player, for the record. He is currently firmly within his NAI meta.
What's wrong with getting someone to claim range a few days before deadline?
And did you forget I was already voting Eco (before that point)?
By the way, do you think Eco and Axel are buddies?
Considering you cased him by interpreting every micro-step of a single interaction as (possibly) scummy, and considering your own interaction with Grape afterwards, I would say you have the most conviction out of anyone voting (or previously voting) Eco.
While we are on the subject, looking up #275 and earlier posts made me see you had already noted the Ignophagy interaction. Why did you wait so long before analysing it? It's not as if your conclusions would have changed much.
When is the last time you've been alive in LyLo as town?
I made the mid-D1 line. And it's not "he's much more likely to be town" so much as "that's his playstyle".
Anyway, do you intent to spend the entire Day sheeping? How do you decide who to sheep?
How would scum-KJ know the Grape thing was BS ?
(Also "musky choice" is terrible, even worse than Grape's "VaGoo".)
Don't like there being such an easy path to quick hammer for scum before I've heard from players I wanna hear from
My glasses were not on my face and it was a knee jerk reaction. Brain retained "Eco's at 4 votes" and I thought I saw another so I said something. And now I play with my eyes on. My bad
I really don't like playing the are they buddies game until I have a flip. I keep saying it's like shooting into the dark for a reason. The risk versus reward balance aint there for me as Town.
Going to be a bit spotty now. Got meetings all day
I don't think it's entirely paranoia but I think it's something so idiosyncratic to your slot to be almost useless to the broader game even if we're town reading you. Yes he could be trying to pocket you by aligning his reads with yours, while not attempting to save you. That is a possibility but it implies he's scum and not with the people pushing you which requires both the belief that you're town and Ter is town and then needs to be willing to read him on his actions in that world.
I'm at you being town and I feel better about Ter after your interactions with her today but I'm not ready to then make reads based on what scum would be doing in that world.
There is also the problem of what's Rhand's plan in that world. Yes it tracks but pocketing you while letting you die isn't exactly a great utility to him. And he could set up pushes on your town wagon without trying to get you on his side (because who looks at dead villagers posts after all?).
*chanting loudly*Not the worst! Not the worst! Not the worst!
I wanted to makes Goomies a thing because it's 80s and whatever but that's not a real mash up.
@Ter is the it the memory jogging part of it? Forgetting about why you weren't talking about something is a scum thing because you're hiding multiple lines of thought but town have very little reason to withhold info so the rare? Alternatively just old fashioned PR fishing in general? I'm not seeing much.
Do you mean not seeing much in general when it comes to Axel or just my point? Where do you currently stand on the Axel front in one or two sentences?
I didn't see much that your point could be.
As for Axel in general the level of detail and effort into the Eco push feels like it's more likely to come from town even if I disagree with the conclusion. No strong read but a gut ping towards town because of the effort and detail.
But quick question: is there a reason people are voting a cop that has yet to be counterclaimed on day one?
Like, if you're a cop and that's why you distrust him, then counterclaim, dude, you just found us a mafia without even using your role. But if you're not, why are you voting for him?
I had an idea that the next thing I was going to micro-over-analyze was Vaimes and Rhand and this argument of whether Rhand can scumlean two people who he also thinks aren't scumbuddies, but that is probably going to have to wait.
Probably can't get good info from it. Do you have anything from MU? Those games are longer.
@Eco: Ignoramus is pure. Originally I thought they were newb town (like you did) but they might not be I guess? Otherwise, they seem pure, and I'm reading that pretty strongly.
VaGoo is my new favorite.
I didn't wait "so long." I had a mental note to myself to go back and check that particular sequence of events because (some?) people were already talking about it, and I was getting some bad vibes from Eco. But I also knew it was going to take me awhile to do, because it was going to involve pulling up posts from both of them and also people they were interacting with and reading it all in sequence and context. I was also allowing for the possibility that, when I looked back at it, and Eco's explanations, it was going to come off more reasonable.
Are you really voting me for anti-meta? I have to say, I think that might be a new one.
Missed this on my first go around.
Why would you think this?
It sounds like you are just willing to sheep reads tbh, and you have said as much yourself. Your whole Eco thing from earlier was you Sheeping ZDS big post on them. I thought that was what made you change your mind on them not what you say here. Also you say after when questioned by Echo. Eco is only bottom for you because everyone else is null or just existing. You just appear to be very non committal and want to be on the good side of everyone and just saying what you think people want to hear. You seem to feel Axel is scum, but are yet again sheeping someone else, do you think he is living to the meta given of good analysis in mid day 1. You seem to rely heavily on meta to get stuff done which I get, but it seems like you just ask for it and never use it yourself.
I gave you room to breath to play your natural game, but you are just sheeping which is bothering me if you have reads push them, I refuse to believe you only see Eco as scum here. I don't fully get your own reason about kids gloves either tbh.
On the subject of Rhand, you said at one point you did not like their 346 and would expand on it later, did you ever do that because think I missed it if you did when I relooked over game. You sort of went on this Eco hunt after that and not really looked back.
Still going through my rereads I think that I like Axel, after going through him, I see his level of commitment, to this Eco push and the way that he has argued, with people who don't see the same world as him.I see as more likely to come from town, its hard to agrue a world you know that is wrong so strongly when you know a town flip is coming. Which in most caases puts you up next, scum are more likely to play passive and support bad kills then lead them to avoid blame. I wish that he talked about more players though his only focus is Eco, Highroller and Rhand to a much lesser degree. Which were all copied from Lagoon. He is at the bottom of my townreads though.
I would normally sheep the person I know here the most, Rhand, but given I'm paranoid about how good they are (they won as woof in the first game I played with them so I'm Nervous), and there's some stuff from them that I will not specify, I'm not willing to sheep them.
My most likely choice wouled be TerRaine and I don't even know why. My gut is just telling me she's probably town, so if I'm still planning to sheep others, it's most likely her.
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/29497-Sense8-Mafia-Game-Thread
I can I've other games where I lasted longer but this is the latest woof game I've had on MU.
I will be honest with y'all
I have no reads whatsoever, and if I do form some, they don't stay for very long. I'm trying to get some footing, but in between school and being new here, I'm not getting any. Maybe I will in the next day-phase.
I was making notes as I went, so this is going to be as the posts go on:
1. Reminder to everyone The Ecophagy wagon started because of this post:
Like, seriously? Imagine thinking that a person's mafia based on this.
2. This post pinged me. It feels really fake.
3. I wouldn't know. Never played with TerRaine.
4. At least you're admitting the attack was bad. Good for you!
5. How in the balls does that make him town if he's lying about his role?
6. Yeah, that's bull. Nothing about Ecophagy's post warranted that kind of response.
7. Ok so you post this, but then...
... What? I thought I was the most fake thing ever? Why are you now saying you don't have a strong scum read?
And now you're backing off on your push on me?
7. Well maybe Highroller doesn't like YOU.
Nah, I'm just kidding. You've got that Dratini and that's adorable.
8. Obviously the fact that he's voting for an uncounterclaimed cop bothers me.
Also, as I was rereading Rhand's posts, this pinged me. He says here:
Yet right afterward,
So it's NAI, and I haven't really done anything else this game thusfar, and therefore I'm a light scum read? Not null or anything?
Also:
???
9. Maybe it's because I'm really tired, maybe it's because I'm really oblivious, but I don't see what's going on with Axelrod's posts in 275/6 that TerRaine is pointing out. Can someone explain it to me?
10. Yeah, sorry, I mistakenly thought someone else had voted for him somewhere around there. In my defense, I was really tired.
11.
Top four candidates for lynch: TerRaine, Jackrito, Axelrod, Rhand
I will have to reread the thread to figure out in what order. Meantime I'm going to sleep, it's almost 4 AM here.
2- Why is that Axel post so fake to you and why is that bad, a couple of us feel that way about Sloth in my view.
5- Someone can be lying about a role to create cop cover so scum will try and kill them, some town just like to lie to create chaos also to bait scum into mistakes. I hate it personally lying about a role but it does happen and better to judge off overall play as well.
6 Any response in mafia can lead to anything and be seen unneeded because of our own biased world views. I for example think Ter is town so your attack on them could be considered unneeded, but at the same time I need it because it lets me see your world view and thought patterns if they make sense as town or just scum trying to get a quick kill. This is a game of interactions I don't see the issue in pressuring someone to get reactions especially when game was slow it led to a lot of discussion and game movement.
7/8 Its possible for me to think a post is fake, but you can possibly be town because town can do posts that look fake because they can't articulate themselves well. do I see you as town at the moment no not really, but I don't have a ego or charisma enough to push someone nonstop all day off small post content especially when others say you always do this stuff. If you keep to unimpress me like you are I come back to it at a later date, but atm better to work with others on my other scum reads to try and get something achieveable as a group.
HR does bring up some good points on Rhand tbh about his view on HR slot should be null but is not.
I understand your reads on me and Ter, I assume you think we are Buddy Buddy, and I'm defending them unless you have other reasons to see me as scum. I"m not as sure why you see Axel as scum though, is it because they are attacking Eco heaviy also and you think anyone who does that must be scum, or is it the whole Lagoon cop claim reaction. The Rhand read is fair and likely where this game ends today atm unless something changes.
I want your thoughts in detail about everyone else, you have not really talked about many people this game. I need to know who you townread and why to get a clearer view of your mindset.
Unvote Eco
Vote Axel
@ZDS I was alive as town in lylo in my champs semi. Here I can’t remember the last time.
I’m not caught up, just spotted these things in a quick skim. I’ll probably need the weekend to read.
Day does end Saturday keep in mind
It isn't.
I think Rhand is scum but you guys have got to stop skimming people's ISOs and not even reading the contexts of their posts.
Oh darnit. Meh I’ll try to get caught up faster.
He still hasn’t? Has Sloth at least explained his vote?
On You? Don't think so.
I will say...the lack of focus from him makes me lean slightly Town on him. I feel like he wouldn't leave his scum buddies high and dry like this unless one of them is very much adept at their scum game.
Also not if they’re not under pressure?