I thought it might have been his postcount. Since you think Axelrod is wolfy because he's acting newbie-like, do you really think he would be doing that on purpose and expect to get away with it?
He's asking Ignoramus to explain his reasoning. Very carefully worded so not to be accusatory (which is a common tact when dealing with new players, going out of your way not to accuse them and try to get more reasoning). But it's also not obviously suspicious and the second that you know Ignoramus is not new to mafia just new to here it's really not relevant. And I am absolutely making assumptions about Eco's motivations, same as you. I just think the most obvious explanations are that he's town.
And if what you're saying is true that Eco stated this post was to try and get Ignoramus to reevaluate then it makes even more sense from town? And I'm not sure why it's framed as a gotcha towards me.
If we work from that assumption Eco has decided he was new town, asks a leading question to get him to reevaluate. Then learns he isn't new and this is no longer relevant as a question because it's not a learning opportunity and the rest of ignoramus's catch up would be much more relevant for reading him.
From either set of assumptions I don't see a ton of need to go back to that unanswered question as town. In fact scum!Eco is probably more likely to not let it drop because he's aware (pretty sure he taught me about) the scum tell of not following up your own questions.
There definitely should not be scum reads on HR. I didn't realize there were. Was about to vote people over them but Jack probably wouldn't know better.
Kind of want to just sheep KJ for a moment and Vote: Sloth
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
After a quick reread, Slothful is possible scum if Rhand is town. He hasn't really had a strong presence, nor is it clear how he feels about other players. The majority of his content is fluff. His last post is literally the most content he has written.
I wouldn't be opposed to killing this if none of Highroller/Rhand/Ecophagy pan out.
I think if Eco's scum Axel is marginally +town. Shielding him for basically no reason makes them look related (in my biased Eco-is- view), but Axel is a big boy who can defend himself on his own against an ignoramus.
Jack disappearing for ~2 days and miraculously reappearing as soon as Ter asked him a question made me jump, but the analysis dump afterwards was decent and somewhat justifies the absence. It looks like he put thought into these reads and isn't just bull*****ting, like he is capable of doing.
Rhand having a hard time forming opinion is a good thing (to a minor extent), since scum-him could easily throw a couple logical or consensual town reads here or there to pretend he's doing something and hide among the crowd. I think he is legitimately struggling.
Highroller going after someone who made a bad early-Day 1 push is... typical Highroller. He's allergic to bad attacks even when it's early Day 1 and everything is flimsy .
ZDS: it would be an instrumental part of the roleplay that is scum pretending to be town though. If eco had never met ignoramus before then it would be weird if suddenly he knew stuff about him. Eco would know that. It doesn't matter if it has an obvious benefit, it costs him nothing.
Could be. It's a Day 1 read anyway, I'm not married to it — but I also think it's stronger than "it could be a scum ploy", which is never a good argument. Any reason you are concerned about this issue?
Why did you want to do that?
Are you townreading Axel?
Are you arguing on principle against a bad argument? (If so, what's the point? Can't scum-Axel be "caught for the wrong reasons"?)
I thought he was both new and town, so getting him to understand why his read was bad might help him look at something else and make a better read. Plus if he was interested in discussing it that would have been towner. I suppose it was a little on principle as well because I'd rather execute people for good reasons because that has a better hit rate.
I am not town reading Axel. He hasn't done anything so far that I'd consider particularly alignment indicative.
I doubt you would have been so quick to conclude they were newb town if you were not presuming that was the case. I suppose this kind of bias is NAI, like Sloth said. Nevertheless it bugs me how much it looks like you were going for the easy pocket.
Someone said you are rusty. Are you rusty?
You haven't argued "on principle" against any other vote (or I missed it), are you fine with them?
What is really bad is that TerRaine gets right on the bandwagon. For no less than FOUR posts, TerRaine proceeds to jump down Ecophagy’s throat for basically nothing.
@Ter: You are obviously giving Eco the stink eye, any reason you are not *actually* going after him?
Is Terrain known as a busser? Because if so, then a Terrain/Eco w/w world's chances are higher.
I was her scumbuddy once (Prison Block II on this site) and she was really awkward when we (well mostly I) bussed Goo or when she bussed me. So, no.
Noted
So she'd rather soft-defend her partners than bus? Because her being woof with someone else (I need to reread, I think) is going even higher.
Also! For the part where it's said Jack was magically summoned by Terraine could be considered w/w IMO.
Pretty similar to the habit some woofs have where they warn their buddies about needing to answer a question of theirs.
@Sloth: Given you think Rhand is scum, what do you think of the people who voted him when asked?
And in the hypothetical vaccuum world, what do you think the fact that Rhand almost got up to claim range so quickly does for his alignment?
I think that Rhand almost getting up to claim range so quickly makes them (?) more likely to be town tbh
Unless this is a big-balled play by woofs, I think there would most likely be more resistance to their wagon if they were woof.
My ego says “because he needs to protect his scumbuddies and keep the misyeet pool nice and open.”
I don’t really have a serious answer. If he’s scum, he’ll do what he thinks is best for his team. If he’s town, lol shrug we’ll work it out eventually I guess.
To answer Eco (too lazy to get their original post LMAO), Rhand doing that could be indicative of a world of Rhand/TerRaine/Jack/someone else (how many players are there at day-start? Need to calculate the number of woofs itg). I've personally done that before where I pull a world outta my ass and push it to try to save my buddies.
It's flabbergasting. However, it's also unlikely Eco is lying when it would be so much easier to say it was a joke at the time and shifted into a serious vote.
One way Eco could be lying is if he wants to paint himself as a rational townie who does everything for a reason. This is a great way to be townread by exploiting human bias. It also fits with goo's analysis of him as very careful.
The issue with this argument is it cannot be proven or disproven, and is born from the sum of my own bias against Eco and the flabbergastingness of the situation. I can only make sense of things by being paranoid and it's frustrating.
• Possible bussing aside, goo is even more confirmed town if Eco is scum, for bringing up the entire issue above.
I don't mind the line about not knowing how to townread Day 1 Axel, I interpret it as "I don't like him but that's always the case Day 1". I have the same issue so I can relate.
I agree with Rhand, Axel and goo are unlikely to be woof-woof.
• Jack being "consensusy" is usual for him and is NAI. Not that I find his reads/leans particularly consensusy, other than the reasons given for them.
• Highroller having a warped view of others' play is completely par with the course for him. It's at most NAI.
• I am a treasure hunter looking for a type of gold named "Clarity". I ask questions to lay my doubts in the open and get the questionee to reveal their mindset. I do not expect anyone to slip up, nor do I expect to be wowed, and I (try to) drop points once they've been clarified enough.
I am intentionally getting away from the "prodding until something is revealed" method, it keeps failing me. I keep prodding Eco because I keep not getting him.
• Ter's wall is superficial at times but not to the extent of being Reads Instead of Content. By itself it's NAI, the fact she did it at all is a little +town.
I probably am. My last game was about 2 years ago, and my last town game was in 2018 and that was a Micro.
Quote from ZDS »
You haven't argued "on principle" against any other vote (or I missed it), are you fine with them?
I'm not going to argue againsst every bad vote on principle because that sounds like mafia purgatory. I get that you're looking for an inconsistent mindset, but I was just trying to help the new guy out.
I asked about the rustiness because I can't see myself giving advice while rusty — but I did post a lot about how to play or against bad-on-principle arguments in my one post-hiatus scum game.
Granted, everyone's different and you seemed to have a much softer hiatus than mine, where you still hung around and spectated games. So... it's just another thing that bugs me but doesn't prove anything.
I'm interested why you think I'm capable of BS reads. I can for sure but not sure you have ever seen me do it, to feel so confident that I have ablity to and what makes you feel I'm not here.
You were caught in Snow White for making up reads while blatantly not reading the thread.
But yes, in the vacuum world where you don't know Rhand's alignment and he could be town. Are you not taking things like that into consideration when trying to solve him?
Why are you phrasing this like Sloth knows Rhand's alignment?
I sit in my helicopter while they both drown in the null swamp, both slowly rising to the surface where the town leans are, but not there yet. Goo rises faster than Ter, whose foot got momentarily stuck in some plants early on.
———
I can finally pinpoint what bothers me so much with Ecophagy. It's the fact I used (pre-hiatus) to play exactly like this as scum. I was more forward than he is because I like to take the lead, but it would have been the only obvious difference. I can literally see my old scum self in his posts, and the positive comments Eco is getting from some players are the same comments I used to get all the time.
Call it a soul read, but with more self-doubt.
I think this is going to be the one read I'm going to sheep today
Also! The part where someone was lightly town-reading TerRaine for making that wall-post: does she normally not make that as woof, or the opposite?
If that reason is because Axel cares more for memeing than solving the game then I'd drowning you in a latrine.
Also, wait. Did you actually just shoot me?
My reason for woof-reading Axel is also extremely weird
The reason why is because I feel like them wanting to be helped/"hand-fed" is similar to acting all newbie as woof even when you're experienced.
Rhand IDK about, I notice his reads list has a lot of reads I don't specifically agree with (Quick to put Eco in town, he throws Grape in there despite his general lack of content. I'm up there, he's not usually that quick to read me. Sloth is scummy to me, he's Null to him. I'm not really scumreading any of his scum leans either. Until he explains where those reads came from though, I'm withholding a read. Where he puts people doesn't matter nearly as much as how he arrived at those reads, which he hasn't really explained yet.
Eco/ZDS/Axel are an interesting trio. Eco and ZDS have been asking decent questions, and Axel is participating (he's not specifically standing out to me) but they are all Tricksy Hobbitses who have it in their capacity to act really town and to not be, so I'm not gonna just townread them for Acting Town. Axel is on the lower end of Null because he's not standing out to me, but he also takes a while to rev up IIRC. Him not standing out in the early game isn't particularly exciting. There is that bit where he was cagey about committing to reads after saying that a list was almost exactly the same as his, but that might not be a thing.
Sloth I have a light scumread on. This post (and surrounding questions) caught my eye:
@Sloth: Given you think Rhand is scum, (1)what do you think of the people who voted him when asked?
And (2)in the hypothetical vaccuum world, what do you think the fact that Rhand almost got up to claim range so quickly does for his alignment?
It means I'm very interested in them.
Vaimes/Ter/you, right?
Not much to see there yet.
I don't like sorting Ter out quickly, it's always wrong.
I'm...curious about Vaimes, I'm noticing something, but it may be explained by him saying he wouldn't fluff much this game. The Cop claim is interesting, and potentially feels baity.
I'm still curious about your response to me on the Grape stuff. I believe the reasoning you gave, I'm not too sure you arrive at that reasoning without TMI.
What do you mean "vacuum world"? A world where we dont have any info or any information?
Would probably indicate that he's town and at least one scum jumped in.
However, context matters and it all happened pretty much within minutes of Rhand asking for it.
where he's presented with a decent reason for Rhand to be town (in my hypothetical wacuum world) and he doesn't take it into consideration because he believes he's scum in spite of that. When I asked Ter if that was normal for him, she implied that it was not. I wanna pull on this thread more. I feel like he might not be town.
I'm also lightly scumreading Lagoon because something feels off with him, thought I can't quite figure out what.
I like Ter's pushback to Eco. That's the only thing that stood out there.
Highroller might be town, but I'm not sure. I specifically don't agree with the scumreads on him.
Townie
Ingo
Town Seeming
ZDS
Ter
Upper Null
Jack
Grape
Highroller
Lower Null
Rhand
Axel
Scumish
Lagoon
Scum
Sloth
Mine's more like this! Townie
Killjoy (if their goal was to pocket me they've succeeded :sweat:)
I don't know, Eco, if your take away from that is me saying "I might have done the same," a lot.
Man that wasn't my whole take. Your effort is commendable but you put about 1000 times as much thought into analysing it as I put into making the posts. It literally is as simple as #106: Ask leading questions to see if ignoramus will exhibit newb scum tells. Ignoramus responds in a way I think is town. So #108: Can I get the newb town to think through why his read is bad so he can do something more valuable to the town. I don't actually care why he thought Axel would pretend to be a noob because it's a bad read that has no justification - I just wanted to try to walk him into working that out himself rather than just saying "your read sucks you dolt."
He didn't reply in time, and turns out he isn't a newb so I'm just going to let him post so I can figure him out instead of going all in on the first interaction I see and driving it into the ground to get a read.
Yes, you should, because otherwise it looks like you’re trying to keep both options open.
Naturally, if you’re right and I am scum, Axelrod is unlikely to be my partner, so he should by definition be a townread. But you don’t have him as a townread right now.
You can always hypothetically move him down later if I flip town.
He gives off scummy vibes so he's a lean scum. I won't artificially change my readslist because my scum leans don't match in teams.
And I don't understand why you're pushing that as something suspicious.
All the one-hit wonders: it's about time to commit to something realistic, unless you really want to bring the pain.
If I had to choose between Eco and Sloth, I would vote Sloth. I don't believe the Eco wagon is pure.
I'm going to give people a bit more time to see the light and vote you though. And reread Sloth.
I think I said twice that I don’t think you and Axel are scum together? Why would you pick that out?
Apparently the Lagoon/Axelrod unalignment is serious enough that you tried to call me out on it when I nitpicked.
It's not that hard to see why it would be suspicious. I am asking you to take the natural next step of solving the game-- "okay, my current world is Lagoon/x/x, Axelrod doesn't really fit as an x so even though I think he's a little bit scummy he isn't scum, so he can be a soft townread unless Lagoon flips town, and then the next likely world is Axelrod/x/x..." and so on. Instead you're more like "lol scummy slots go brrrrr"
I don't think I'm being weird or unreasonable here! You just want options to push, instead of actually finding people likely to flip mafia.
I don't care so much about the list itself, rather that you think it's okay to disregard town!Axelrod worlds even though that is a world you are very much pushing, right this very second, with your vote on me. You said so yourself.
I don't care so much about the list itself, rather that you think it's okay to disregard town!Axelrod worlds even though that is a world you are very much pushing, right this very second, with your vote on me. You said so yourself.
I don’t do conscious pre-flip world building unless something jumps out at me on Day 1. I take note of unalignments and possible buddy stuff, sure. But before I see a flip I’m not clearing / condemning people by association.
Day 1 is about finding the scummiest player to lynch and once we get bodies, the game of association starts.
• Axel being so pushy about Eco is uncharacteristic for him, especially on Day 1. His case, while good, is not that strong, and Grape's interpretation of the Ecognorimus interaction is logically valid (as in "it may be correct", not as in "it is correct for sure").
It also gives me pause that Axel jumped straight to casing Eco and voting him over a single event from 300 posts ago, when Eco has a lot of content and many pros and cons. Coming from anyone it would be suspicious, coming from Axel (who, as town, hates jumping to conclusions) it is doubly so.
• On Goo VS Rhand, I agree with Goo it would be more logical for Rhand to sort Axel a little higher (even if he has to dedicate a category to him). That being said, how does scum-Rhand benefit from being illogical here? It's not as if it would prevent him from voting Axel after a town-Goo flip, or at any point for that matter.
I don't really understand why you're so insistent on forcing a read on me right now other than because it bothers you.
Because you were the only one I could see having a scum mindset. Also, you've done multiple things that were , but none that were scummy for sure, so I can neither ignore you nor crusade against you.
This is the chain of events I was referring to. The consistent through line is pretty clear to me. Eco initially soft clears him while asking leading questions to generate content for others to analyze, then the situation changes and his initial questions aren't that relevant because it turned out Igno wasn't in fact a new player and those questions were specific to the assumption that he was new town.
My issue with this is how quickly it happened, Eco switched right away from figuring out Igno to guiding the newb town even though their response wasn't that telling. Which, to be fair, could be sloppy town play (making assumptions and jumping to conclusions).
I'm going to give people a bit more time to see the light and vote you though. And reread Sloth.
Have you had a chance to do this yet? What exactly is it that pinging people with Sloth? His activity for this ones been a bit lacking but nothing really has seized me as scummy
I'm going to give people a bit more time to see the light and vote you though. And reread Sloth.
Have you had a chance to do this yet? What exactly is it that pinging people with Sloth? His activity for this ones been a bit lacking but nothing really has seized me as scummy
Given his postcount, his content is extremely low.
There's a decent question here and there, but what he is not doing is explaining his scumreads (me I guess if that vote is even serious and Vaimes).
I have no idea if he thinks hiding his raisins like that is a master town ploy or if he just doesn't have any.
Some pressure that way is a good thing. He should start talking.
...Uh... we really putting people at L2 4 days before deadline?
It's past the halfway point in the phase, which I think is a good time to get someone to L-2 and see if we want to commit to the wagon or move elsewhere.
I don't know, Eco, if your take away from that is me saying "I might have done the same," a lot.
Man that wasn't my whole take. Your effort is commendable but you put about 1000 times as much thought into analysing it as I put into making the posts.
That seems to be my lot in life.
It literally is as simple as #106: Ask leading questions to see if ignoramus will exhibit newb scum tells. Ignoramus responds in a way I think is town. So #108: Can I get the newb town to think through why his read is bad so he can do something more valuable to the town. I don't actually care why he thought Axel would pretend to be a noob because it's a bad read that has no justification - I just wanted to try to walk him into working that out himself rather than just saying "your read sucks you dolt."
My issue is three-fold, I guess. One is how fast this happened. 106 to 108 is no time at all, but you (apparently) make a significant adjustment to your worldview here. Second is that it seems like a poor assumption you were making in the first place (Igno is newb) to base this premise off of, and I don't think of you as someone who makes lazy assumptions.
The third goes back to something I said. I indicated that I thought one way of reading your posts was that you were doing something that I myself might have tried doing, by way of drawing Igno out with questions. And it was almost like you agreed with me that, yes, that was what you were doing, at least for the first post, but not for the second one. And I have trouble seeing how that is, from the way the posts were made and questions asked. The flow is wrong, as it were.
I see GF strongly disagreeing with this, and I'm not prepared to call him out too and say that no reasonable person could have that interpretation. But I don't like it when I can't see the logical through-line. Townies aren't always logical, this I have learned from sad experience. But I don't see myself not following that rabbit when I see it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
[font=georgia]• Axel being so pushy about Eco is uncharacteristic for him, especially on Day 1. His case, while good, is not that strong, and Grape's interpretation of the Ecognorimus interaction is logically valid (as in "it may be correct", not as in "it is correct for sure").
How strong do you think it is, ZDS? Or maybe I should be asking, how strong do you think that I think it is?
It also gives me pause that Axel jumped straight to casing Eco and voting him over a single event from 300 posts ago, when Eco has a lot of content and many pros and cons. Coming from anyone it would be suspicious, coming from Axel (who, as town, hates jumping to conclusions) it is doubly so.
The vote is admittedly based almost entirely on that one sequence of events. And I'm fine with that right now.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
OK Reads time. I'm going to go through the post #1 playerlist, do some thinking out loud then arrange it into an ordered list at the end. Health warning: may contain rambling.
Axelrod - Starting with a tricky one. The opening of being more interested in learning to memepost is maybe a "safe" thing to do as mafia, but it's not like there was a lot going on on page 1, and you could easily see it as being relaxed and interactive. The main problem I have is that I think Axelrod is very comfortably within his scum range, and there's certainly no obvious town signs (but I understand that's basically normal D1 Axelrod). I don't really like the way he liked gooLagoon's read post but is at pains to say he's not committing to it, just vaguely ok with it. I don't like that he considers me scummish-but-not-sure-until-he-parses-the-ignoramus stuff, but can go into excrutiating depth on said interaction to come out with a solid scum read - it comes across as "I'm keen to get on this wagon but I'm going to make sure it's for my own reason to avoid bandwagoning accusations and make a Townie Analysis Post". I completely believe he could write #376 as Mafia. However, if I try to take away the lens of my own bias because Axel is stone wrong on me, I think I can see his posts also just coming from a townie - there's no smoking scum mindset gun. Verdict: scummy side of ??? but I'm not that interested in voting.
gooLagoon - Overall a general town-ish aura - open to discussing with me, the cop claim, the (appreciated) move to fluff less, thinking out loud. These are all things which I think less-comforable-with-mafia gooLagoon could forgo if they were mafia. I get the feeling their reads are based on the axiom of "Eco is scummy and TerRaine towny, they're at odds, so I'm looking to build a world around that". I know that's a flawed assumption, but it indicates game-solvy-ness with enough independent analysis that it's not just sheeping. Certainly the least scummy of people who want to kill me.
Grapefruit21 - Possibly my top town read. The initial read of mafia-Grapefruit being unlikely to hard town-read Killjoy for a reaction to a possibly daykill still holds, and I felt like the way he wavered on me then held indicates an organic rather than tactical thought process. He's also actively arguing my cae with Axel (rather than town reading me but letting me get executed anyway), and he's also passed on the Rhand wagon - denying Grapefruit two soft wagon votes (especially since he was hard at Rhand and reveresed his position after being informed he'd made a mistake - mafia would like to come up with another reason to stay on the wagon). It's possible I'm being pocketed, but I can't see anything that's making me paranoid.
Highroller - He hasn't done anything outside his normal play so far, and his content has been light (but not scummy light yet). I think I'm going for a light town read for #348 where he took a strawman swipe at me, who would be one of the players most likely to vote TerRaine with him. I think mafia-Highroller would be more interested in courting my cooperation (say, with leading questions about what I thought about TerRaine) rather than just dump on me. More content obviously desired though.
ignoramus - newb town. Sitting in the ???? field of my reads list, currently in possesion of the benefit of the doubt. It would be very easy to scum-read them for making a bad Axelrod read (that completely fizzled), for being less active, and posting self-meta that sets a very low bar - and the reads list buried in #406 is very light on explanation, especially given he's turned a town read on me into a top scum read with no explanation. But it's also pretty pure/guileless, so I'm fine to let them keep posting and work them out later. My Mystic Meg prediction is that they'll probably get voted off at some point anyway, and if they are town the mafia have them nailed on as a mis-execute they need to win.
Jackrito - Still think he's scummy. His RVS vote in #61 was awkward (specifying "for now" on a joke vote). His response to the tongue-in-cheek question in #70 was overexplained and nervous. His reads list is both appeasing me and set up to vote LHF with non-consensus reads heavily caveated. He's fine to let his town read on me go to waste by sheeping his town reads without either a) trying to re-evaluate to re-draw his conclusion or b) voting me because his town reads want me dead (#360). His vote is in fact still parked on Highroller instead of a real person. It's gross. I feel like people are being snowed by him making an early read post without thinking about the content of it, and the fact that I, consesnsus scumread, want him dead.
Killjoy - Zero points for reaction to the Indiana gif. I get the town reads he's been accruing for looking engaged and inquisitive and stuff, that's my broad impression as well. He's poking round the edges of stuff not exactly stopping people from voting me off but at least trying to question people on it. Voluntarily leaving the Rhand wagon is a good look I think - it would have been easy to keep riding it. However, on the other side of the same coin, he's been hanging around the edges - yeah he's quizzing ZDS on his read on me, but he's not actually said what he thinks about me. He's foccussing on some very small things ("is Eco bussing Rhand?", "Eco/Ter not w/w"), and he's put a lot of time into Sloth rather than any main player (and I'm keeping my eyes open for mafia who are not taking a hard side the in the Eco/Rhand vs gooLagoon/TerRaine fight). But then I look at the readslist in #400 and I'm thinking why would KJ top town-read igno? He's actually got me high, has gooLagoon very low without copying Rhand's other reads. I'd love more explanation behind the reads, but it's got enough novelty to it that it seems more likely town than mafia. That's a lot of back and forth, that puts him on the town side of ???, but I'm not totally comforable in it.
Rhand - I've already said I thought his early game was +town because mafia-Rhand knows he can't just sit there complaining nothing is happening. But mafia-Rhand is confident enough to believe he can pull it off (and I guess he doesn't see anything juicy enough to start pushing). Asking to be voted is NAI for similar confidence reasons - if he'd actually analysed something off it I might say otherwise, but I don't know what he really expected beyond some naked votes. I find it kind of convenient he went from "there is nothing worth analysing" to "here's a full readlist" in about 24 hours (and 75 posts). The full list lacks explanations (which were promised?) but I don't see how he can good reads on 50% of the game (and presumably something on the nulls) using only information from that short span of time.
What really bugs me is that his world view is basically the exact opposite of gooLagoon's. That's not awful, but it's that his world looks exactly like what mine "should" look like if I was scumreading the people who want me dead. Even as I type it feels like extreme paranoia, but I can't shake the feeling Rhand knows I'm town (isn't doing much to stop my mis-execute) and is setting a foundation for scum-reading the anti-Eco squad on D2 with my blue flip (and/or pocketing me by putting me top town). But this sounds crazy - couldn't he just be doing the inverse of gooLagoon and thinking "I think Eco is town, I don't like gooLagoon, so let's build my world around that"? I think the contrast in approaches is clear enough that I don't have that confidence.
So ultimately? I think Rhand really could be Mafia, but I'm not sure I'd actually believe it if anyone made this argument to me.
Slothful - The longer he goes without posting content, the worse it looks but I don't have much of a read beyond that. I'm fine with the votes for pressure because he shouldn't be allowed to skate by forever, but I don't know if it has a much better than random hit rate. If he comes in with reads that are spicy enough to have been worth holding close to the chest he goes up. If he comes in with boring consesnsus reads then he goes down.
TerRaine - This is the read I'm too close to to be really objective on. Some say relaxed opening game, I see excessive fluffing. There are lots of questions and poking things with sticks, but basically no followup. Intentionally dodging giving opinions. I still can't believe she thinks that making an assumption about a player new to the forum is really a scumtell, and she didn't bat an eye at ignoramus literally saying "I had assumed Axel was experienced, based off of the post numbers under their profile, and using that assumption I woof-read Axel because of reasons I had also said before.". She was happy to hound me but didn't vote until after I'd gained traction as a scumread. When she does vote in #327 the reasons are both new (initial read not mentioned) and flimsy. If she really is town she's so deep in the tunnel any post I make she'll call scummy. And yet, I know that a lot of this reaction is an emotional response to her scum-reading me for what I think are dumb reasons amplifying the initial doubts I had. I really do think as scum she'd have been more likely to just drop a vote on me much earlier than she did. It's a scum read but by god I could just be wrong.
For those keepsing score, she does refer to Sloth a lot while strongly resisting committing to her own read, which I'd say fits with them being buddies.
ZeDorkSlipeur - Initial thought was #140 was comfortably within scum range. But while reading #370 I can practically hear him yelling at his monitor - he's really having trouble understand why I'd be doing what I'm doing as town. But it also looks like he's trouble working out why I'd be doing it as mafia too, which is why his logic goes "Surely this can't be town" > "so it must be scum" > "OK I think I can make a narrative that explains that". Normally that kind of cart-before-horse logic would be scummy, but the confusion and frustration is so visceral I feel he is desperate to find me scum because then he can blame a mysterious scum agenda rather than have to understand how this wacko thinks he's helping the town. Him also switching to Axelrod suggests he's at least coming to some realisation since mafia would be fine to ram it home. I don't think he'll ever be able to dispel lingering unease on my slot, but I'll try my best.
For people not interested in wading through that, here's the list:
Town
Grapefruit
ZDS
Highroller
???
gooLagoon
Killjoy
Axelrod
Mafia
Rhand
TeRraine
Jackrito
Null
Slothful
ignoramus
If he wasn't trying to kill me I think gooLagoon would probably move up to the town slot. Maybe TeRraine would just be in ???. Highroller could be in Null (for more content needed), but I think there's enough for a weak town read over ???, and Jackrito is voting him. I think Axel would still be in ??? even if was doing what he's doing to someone else, becuase it's still within scum range.
Vote Rhand. I can't shake the feeling he's Up To Something, and it's at least not affected by emotional OMGUS.
I'm not parsing that list right now, but what immediately jumps out to me is you having a "light town" read on Highroller, which I find completely ridiculous. I don't mean he's scum, I mean, no one should possibly be "town" reading him in any way for what he's done so far.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm not parsing that list right now, but what immediately jumps out to me is you having a "light town" read on Highroller, which I find completely ridiculous. I don't mean he's scum, I mean, no one should possibly be "town" reading him in any way for what he's done so far.
Yeah I'm not totally sold on HR actually being a proper town read either, which I did vacilitate over. If you like, I can formally slide him back to Null with a town-lean-but-more-content-required caveat.
"she didn't bat an eye at ignoramus literally saying "I had assumed Axel was experienced, based off of the post numbers under their profile, and using that assumption I woof-read Axel because of reasons I had also said before."
Yea trying to chisel this quote out of your wall is a pain so I'm not. I DID comment on this. #109. You're reaching. In fact the comment I make is again this falls apart by asking the question directly instead of assuming anything.
For those keepsing score, she does refer to Sloth a lot while strongly resisting committing to her own read, which I'd say fits with them being buddies.
Full disclosure we ARE buddies. He's one of the my closest friends off this forum in the real world. I've known him for over a decade and we are historically bad at reading each other in these games.
You say my reasons for scum reading you are flimsy...ok.
Then refute them.
You don't bother offering up a counter argument for me to even consider. You assigning a disparaging adjective against an accusation doesn't convince me of anything. It's dismissive and comes across as avoidance.
@Eco: you’re over-analysing my readslist. It’s all leans. I don’t have solid reads.
I know I tend to come across more sure than I am, but not even Vaimes is a solid read. It’s a push worth pushing and I think I’m onto something with him pushing me for having 2 scumleans that can’t be scum together. But now I read your Vaimes read and building a world is apparently what he does on Day 1? He’s experienced, he shouldn’t project his own play on how I play, but if that’s how he thinks everyone should play... maybe I’m wrong. I have to reread him.
You basically parroted my Sloth and Axel reads. And we agree on Jackrito. Your read on me is just paranoia I think? I don’t get how you came to this conclusion. Are you consciously trying to not allow any omgus on your reads? Why would you do that? Self-wagon-analysis is a strong tool. You seem to want all of your voters to be town. Why?
Actually, the original reason I wanted to kill you was because I thought you fit nicely into a Highroller/Ecophagy/Rhand team, and you were the squishiest read I had and naturally the best slot for me to vote.
The Axelrod/Lagoon thing was just something separate that I didn't like.
Say what you want about playstyle, but I think "I should be allowed to push two scumleans who can't be scum together" sounds completely nonsensical.
It isn’t though. I’m not sold enough on one to rule out the other.
The big difference is that for you I have something tangible to push on. On Axel I can’t get a grip.
Until we get flips to analyze trying to push scum teams is shooting into the dark this early I think.
If you think two people are independently scummy, sure, go for it. But if you specifically don't think they make sense together, then pushing both simultaneously looks like you don't actually care about the logic surrounding your reads.
Or you can't decide which is scummier and view the info gain from a misyeet as more of a Town + then keeping a town player who's not playing in a way helpful to Town
Until we get flips to analyze trying to push scum teams is shooting into the dark this early I think.
If you think two people are independently scummy, sure, go for it. But if you specifically don't think they make sense together, then pushing both simultaneously looks like you don't actually care about the logic surrounding your reads.
But that’s the whole thing. I have reasons to suspect you both. I don’t think you’re scum together. Why do you think it’s so weird that my focus is on figuring that out? Your shielding that and counterpush on it is just... I don’t get it.
Or you can't decide which is scummier and view the info gain from a misyeet as more of a Town + then keeping a town player who's not playing in a way helpful to Town
That specific scenario really isn't applicable here.
But that’s the whole thing. I have reasons to suspect you both. I don’t think you’re scum together. Why do you think it’s so weird that my focus is on figuring that out? Your shielding that and counterpush on it is just... I don’t get it.
I don't think using more words to explain why I think it's bad is going to be helpful. I'm of the belief that you aren't just trying to vote scum out, you're voting for the world you believe in [even if it's incorrect].
Your actions say "I believe that Lagoon is more likely scumt han Axelrod, therefore Axelrod is town." You act like it's a permanent commitment, but we all know it isn't, so I don't understand the issue.
Or, well, I can't account for how strongly you believe in your own reads since you just admitted it was bravado. My only flaw here is originally taking you at your word.
Or, well, I can't account for how strongly you believe in your own reads since you just admitted it was bravado. My only flaw here is originally taking you at your word.
My read on you is stronger than the one on Axel yes. But neither has the strength of “gotcha”.
I feel like we’re still going to be talking about this in lylo lol.
Would scum!Eco turn on someone who townreads him to save his own arse? It’s weird.
I mean if he's avoiding an OMGUS vote which is what he seems to be doing then it's not that weird
But why openly and consciously avoid OMGUS? It makes no sense. Analysing your own wagon is one of the strongest tools in mafia. Surely Eco knows that and wouldn’t make a show of not doing that as mafia?
Huh he did.
I guess Vaimes / Eco is never a thing now.
I can’t parse this. Creating a whole world view around someone asking him to ignore certain facts is un-Eco. For both alignments. It’s too compliant.
He's asking Ignoramus to explain his reasoning. Very carefully worded so not to be accusatory (which is a common tact when dealing with new players, going out of your way not to accuse them and try to get more reasoning). But it's also not obviously suspicious and the second that you know Ignoramus is not new to mafia just new to here it's really not relevant. And I am absolutely making assumptions about Eco's motivations, same as you. I just think the most obvious explanations are that he's town.
And if what you're saying is true that Eco stated this post was to try and get Ignoramus to reevaluate then it makes even more sense from town? And I'm not sure why it's framed as a gotcha towards me.
If we work from that assumption Eco has decided he was new town, asks a leading question to get him to reevaluate. Then learns he isn't new and this is no longer relevant as a question because it's not a learning opportunity and the rest of ignoramus's catch up would be much more relevant for reading him.
From either set of assumptions I don't see a ton of need to go back to that unanswered question as town. In fact scum!Eco is probably more likely to not let it drop because he's aware (pretty sure he taught me about) the scum tell of not following up your own questions.
Kind of want to just sheep KJ for a moment and Vote: Sloth
But thanks for helping me I guess.
Vote Sloth
Unvote, vote Ecophagy
Ecophagy (4): ZeDorkSlipeur, TerRaine, Axelrod, gooLagoon
Slothful (2): Grapefruit21, Killjoy
Rhand (1): Slothful
Highroller (1): Jackrito
Jackrito (1): Ecophagy
Axelrod (1): ignoramus
TerRaine (1): Highroller
gooLagoon (1): Rhand
All the one-hit wonders: it's about time to commit to something realistic, unless you really want to bring the pain.
After a quick reread, Slothful is possible scum if Rhand is town. He hasn't really had a strong presence, nor is it clear how he feels about other players. The majority of his content is fluff. His last post is literally the most content he has written.
I wouldn't be opposed to killing this if none of Highroller/Rhand/Ecophagy pan out.
Noted
So she'd rather soft-defend her partners than bus? Because her being woof with someone else (I need to reread, I think) is going even higher.
Also! For the part where it's said Jack was magically summoned by Terraine could be considered w/w IMO.
Pretty similar to the habit some woofs have where they warn their buddies about needing to answer a question of theirs.
The power of OMGUS
I think that Rhand almost getting up to claim range so quickly makes them (?) more likely to be town tbh
Unless this is a big-balled play by woofs, I think there would most likely be more resistance to their wagon if they were woof.
@Killjoy @TerRaine thank you!
To answer Eco (too lazy to get their original post LMAO), Rhand doing that could be indicative of a world of Rhand/TerRaine/Jack/someone else (how many players are there at day-start? Need to calculate the number of woofs itg). I've personally done that before where I pull a world outta my ass and push it to try to save my buddies.
I think this is going to be the one read I'm going to sheep today
Also! The part where someone was lightly town-reading TerRaine for making that wall-post: does she normally not make that as woof, or the opposite?
???
Please explain ty
Sorry @Rhand!
I decided to take school more seriously
Mine's more like this!
Townie
Killjoy (if their goal was to pocket me they've succeeded :sweat:)
Town Seeming
Axel
Lagoon
Ter
Upper Null
Rhand
Jack
Grape
ZDS
Lower Null
Highroller
Sloth
Scumish
Eco
Scum
None
Man that wasn't my whole take. Your effort is commendable but you put about 1000 times as much thought into analysing it as I put into making the posts. It literally is as simple as #106: Ask leading questions to see if ignoramus will exhibit newb scum tells. Ignoramus responds in a way I think is town. So #108: Can I get the newb town to think through why his read is bad so he can do something more valuable to the town. I don't actually care why he thought Axel would pretend to be a noob because it's a bad read that has no justification - I just wanted to try to walk him into working that out himself rather than just saying "your read sucks you dolt."
He didn't reply in time, and turns out he isn't a newb so I'm just going to let him post so I can figure him out instead of going all in on the first interaction I see and driving it into the ground to get a read.
Going to work on this today. I dreamt of scum lists last night.
He gives off scummy vibes so he's a lean scum. I won't artificially change my readslist because my scum leans don't match in teams.
And I don't understand why you're pushing that as something suspicious.
If I had to choose between Eco and Sloth, I would vote Sloth. I don't believe the Eco wagon is pure.
I'm going to give people a bit more time to see the light and vote you though. And reread Sloth.
It's not that hard to see why it would be suspicious. I am asking you to take the natural next step of solving the game-- "okay, my current world is Lagoon/x/x, Axelrod doesn't really fit as an x so even though I think he's a little bit scummy he isn't scum, so he can be a soft townread unless Lagoon flips town, and then the next likely world is Axelrod/x/x..." and so on. Instead you're more like "lol scummy slots go brrrrr"
I don't think I'm being weird or unreasonable here! You just want options to push, instead of actually finding people likely to flip mafia.
I don’t do conscious pre-flip world building unless something jumps out at me on Day 1. I take note of unalignments and possible buddy stuff, sure. But before I see a flip I’m not clearing / condemning people by association.
Day 1 is about finding the scummiest player to lynch and once we get bodies, the game of association starts.
Obvious buddy interactions. That leads to a pair of suspects instead of one and to early worldbuilding.
What I do sometimes do is wild scumteam guesses on Day 1, but they are rarely correct and never hold me from looking at other people too.
It also gives me pause that Axel jumped straight to casing Eco and voting him over a single event from 300 posts ago, when Eco has a lot of content and many pros and cons. Coming from anyone it would be suspicious, coming from Axel (who, as town, hates jumping to conclusions) it is doubly so.
• On Goo VS Rhand, I agree with Goo it would be more logical for Rhand to sort Axel a little higher (even if he has to dedicate a category to him). That being said, how does scum-Rhand benefit from being illogical here? It's not as if it would prevent him from voting Axel after a town-Goo flip, or at any point for that matter.
Why is this not NAI? I have access to the same memories regardless of alignment. Because you were the only one I could see having a scum mindset. Also, you've done multiple things that were , but none that were scummy for sure, so I can neither ignore you nor crusade against you. My issue with this is how quickly it happened, Eco switched right away from figuring out Igno to guiding the newb town even though their response wasn't that telling. Which, to be fair, could be sloppy town play (making assumptions and jumping to conclusions).
What made you change your mind regarding Axel and Eco?
———
Unvote
Vote: Axelrod
IGMEOY: Ecophagy
Have you had a chance to do this yet? What exactly is it that pinging people with Sloth? His activity for this ones been a bit lacking but nothing really has seized me as scummy
Given his postcount, his content is extremely low.
There's a decent question here and there, but what he is not doing is explaining his scumreads (me I guess if that vote is even serious and Vaimes).
I have no idea if he thinks hiding his raisins like that is a master town ploy or if he just doesn't have any.
Some pressure that way is a good thing. He should start talking.
You idiots! These are not them! You've captured their stunt doubles!
Ecophagy (3): TerRaine, Axelrod, gooLagoon
Slothful (2): Grapefruit21, Killjoy
Axelrod (2): ignoramus, ZeDorkSlipeur
Rhand (1): Slothful
Highroller (1): Jackrito
Jackrito (1): Ecophagy
TerRaine (1): Highroller
gooLagoon (1): Rhand
Not Voting (0):
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to eject!
Day 1 deadline is Saturday, February 6th, at 2:00pm MST
Please inform me if there are any errors in votecounts.
Additionally, if you have a question for me, the most consistent way to quickly get my attention is to ping me on Discord.
The third goes back to something I said. I indicated that I thought one way of reading your posts was that you were doing something that I myself might have tried doing, by way of drawing Igno out with questions. And it was almost like you agreed with me that, yes, that was what you were doing, at least for the first post, but not for the second one. And I have trouble seeing how that is, from the way the posts were made and questions asked. The flow is wrong, as it were.
I see GF strongly disagreeing with this, and I'm not prepared to call him out too and say that no reasonable person could have that interpretation. But I don't like it when I can't see the logical through-line. Townies aren't always logical, this I have learned from sad experience. But I don't see myself not following that rabbit when I see it.
The vote is admittedly based almost entirely on that one sequence of events. And I'm fine with that right now.
Axelrod - Starting with a tricky one. The opening of being more interested in learning to memepost is maybe a "safe" thing to do as mafia, but it's not like there was a lot going on on page 1, and you could easily see it as being relaxed and interactive. The main problem I have is that I think Axelrod is very comfortably within his scum range, and there's certainly no obvious town signs (but I understand that's basically normal D1 Axelrod). I don't really like the way he liked gooLagoon's read post but is at pains to say he's not committing to it, just vaguely ok with it. I don't like that he considers me scummish-but-not-sure-until-he-parses-the-ignoramus stuff, but can go into excrutiating depth on said interaction to come out with a solid scum read - it comes across as "I'm keen to get on this wagon but I'm going to make sure it's for my own reason to avoid bandwagoning accusations and make a Townie Analysis Post". I completely believe he could write #376 as Mafia. However, if I try to take away the lens of my own bias because Axel is stone wrong on me, I think I can see his posts also just coming from a townie - there's no smoking scum mindset gun. Verdict: scummy side of ??? but I'm not that interested in voting.
gooLagoon - Overall a general town-ish aura - open to discussing with me, the cop claim, the (appreciated) move to fluff less, thinking out loud. These are all things which I think less-comforable-with-mafia gooLagoon could forgo if they were mafia. I get the feeling their reads are based on the axiom of "Eco is scummy and TerRaine towny, they're at odds, so I'm looking to build a world around that". I know that's a flawed assumption, but it indicates game-solvy-ness with enough independent analysis that it's not just sheeping. Certainly the least scummy of people who want to kill me.
Grapefruit21 - Possibly my top town read. The initial read of mafia-Grapefruit being unlikely to hard town-read Killjoy for a reaction to a possibly daykill still holds, and I felt like the way he wavered on me then held indicates an organic rather than tactical thought process. He's also actively arguing my cae with Axel (rather than town reading me but letting me get executed anyway), and he's also passed on the Rhand wagon - denying Grapefruit two soft wagon votes (especially since he was hard at Rhand and reveresed his position after being informed he'd made a mistake - mafia would like to come up with another reason to stay on the wagon). It's possible I'm being pocketed, but I can't see anything that's making me paranoid.
Highroller - He hasn't done anything outside his normal play so far, and his content has been light (but not scummy light yet). I think I'm going for a light town read for #348 where he took a strawman swipe at me, who would be one of the players most likely to vote TerRaine with him. I think mafia-Highroller would be more interested in courting my cooperation (say, with leading questions about what I thought about TerRaine) rather than just dump on me. More content obviously desired though.
ignoramus -
newb town. Sitting in the ???? field of my reads list, currently in possesion of the benefit of the doubt. It would be very easy to scum-read them for making a bad Axelrod read (that completely fizzled), for being less active, and posting self-meta that sets a very low bar - and the reads list buried in #406 is very light on explanation, especially given he's turned a town read on me into a top scum read with no explanation. But it's also pretty pure/guileless, so I'm fine to let them keep posting and work them out later. My Mystic Meg prediction is that they'll probably get voted off at some point anyway, and if they are town the mafia have them nailed on as a mis-execute they need to win.Jackrito - Still think he's scummy. His RVS vote in #61 was awkward (specifying "for now" on a joke vote). His response to the tongue-in-cheek question in #70 was overexplained and nervous. His reads list is both appeasing me and set up to vote LHF with non-consensus reads heavily caveated. He's fine to let his town read on me go to waste by sheeping his town reads without either a) trying to re-evaluate to re-draw his conclusion or b) voting me because his town reads want me dead (#360). His vote is in fact still parked on Highroller instead of a real person. It's gross. I feel like people are being snowed by him making an early read post without thinking about the content of it, and the fact that I, consesnsus scumread, want him dead.
Killjoy - Zero points for reaction to the Indiana gif. I get the town reads he's been accruing for looking engaged and inquisitive and stuff, that's my broad impression as well. He's poking round the edges of stuff not exactly stopping people from voting me off but at least trying to question people on it. Voluntarily leaving the Rhand wagon is a good look I think - it would have been easy to keep riding it. However, on the other side of the same coin, he's been hanging around the edges - yeah he's quizzing ZDS on his read on me, but he's not actually said what he thinks about me. He's foccussing on some very small things ("is Eco bussing Rhand?", "Eco/Ter not w/w"), and he's put a lot of time into Sloth rather than any main player (and I'm keeping my eyes open for mafia who are not taking a hard side the in the Eco/Rhand vs gooLagoon/TerRaine fight). But then I look at the readslist in #400 and I'm thinking why would KJ top town-read igno? He's actually got me high, has gooLagoon very low without copying Rhand's other reads. I'd love more explanation behind the reads, but it's got enough novelty to it that it seems more likely town than mafia. That's a lot of back and forth, that puts him on the town side of ???, but I'm not totally comforable in it.
Rhand - I've already said I thought his early game was +town because mafia-Rhand knows he can't just sit there complaining nothing is happening. But mafia-Rhand is confident enough to believe he can pull it off (and I guess he doesn't see anything juicy enough to start pushing). Asking to be voted is NAI for similar confidence reasons - if he'd actually analysed something off it I might say otherwise, but I don't know what he really expected beyond some naked votes. I find it kind of convenient he went from "there is nothing worth analysing" to "here's a full readlist" in about 24 hours (and 75 posts). The full list lacks explanations (which were promised?) but I don't see how he can good reads on 50% of the game (and presumably something on the nulls) using only information from that short span of time.
What really bugs me is that his world view is basically the exact opposite of gooLagoon's. That's not awful, but it's that his world looks exactly like what mine "should" look like if I was scumreading the people who want me dead. Even as I type it feels like extreme paranoia, but I can't shake the feeling Rhand knows I'm town (isn't doing much to stop my mis-execute) and is setting a foundation for scum-reading the anti-Eco squad on D2 with my blue flip (and/or pocketing me by putting me top town). But this sounds crazy - couldn't he just be doing the inverse of gooLagoon and thinking "I think Eco is town, I don't like gooLagoon, so let's build my world around that"? I think the contrast in approaches is clear enough that I don't have that confidence.
So ultimately? I think Rhand really could be Mafia, but I'm not sure I'd actually believe it if anyone made this argument to me.
Slothful - The longer he goes without posting content, the worse it looks but I don't have much of a read beyond that. I'm fine with the votes for pressure because he shouldn't be allowed to skate by forever, but I don't know if it has a much better than random hit rate. If he comes in with reads that are spicy enough to have been worth holding close to the chest he goes up. If he comes in with boring consesnsus reads then he goes down.
TerRaine - This is the read I'm too close to to be really objective on. Some say relaxed opening game, I see excessive fluffing. There are lots of questions and poking things with sticks, but basically no followup. Intentionally dodging giving opinions. I still can't believe she thinks that making an assumption about a player new to the forum is really a scumtell, and she didn't bat an eye at ignoramus literally saying "I had assumed Axel was experienced, based off of the post numbers under their profile, and using that assumption I woof-read Axel because of reasons I had also said before.". She was happy to hound me but didn't vote until after I'd gained traction as a scumread. When she does vote in #327 the reasons are both new (initial read not mentioned) and flimsy. If she really is town she's so deep in the tunnel any post I make she'll call scummy. And yet, I know that a lot of this reaction is an emotional response to her scum-reading me for what I think are dumb reasons amplifying the initial doubts I had. I really do think as scum she'd have been more likely to just drop a vote on me much earlier than she did. It's a scum read but by god I could just be wrong.
For those keepsing score, she does refer to Sloth a lot while strongly resisting committing to her own read, which I'd say fits with them being buddies.
ZeDorkSlipeur - Initial thought was #140 was comfortably within scum range. But while reading #370 I can practically hear him yelling at his monitor - he's really having trouble understand why I'd be doing what I'm doing as town. But it also looks like he's trouble working out why I'd be doing it as mafia too, which is why his logic goes "Surely this can't be town" > "so it must be scum" > "OK I think I can make a narrative that explains that". Normally that kind of cart-before-horse logic would be scummy, but the confusion and frustration is so visceral I feel he is desperate to find me scum because then he can blame a mysterious scum agenda rather than have to understand how this wacko thinks he's helping the town. Him also switching to Axelrod suggests he's at least coming to some realisation since mafia would be fine to ram it home. I don't think he'll ever be able to dispel lingering unease on my slot, but I'll try my best.
Town
Grapefruit
ZDS
Highroller
???
gooLagoon
Killjoy
Axelrod
Mafia
Rhand
TeRraine
Jackrito
Null
Slothful
ignoramus
If he wasn't trying to kill me I think gooLagoon would probably move up to the town slot. Maybe TeRraine would just be in ???. Highroller could be in Null (for more content needed), but I think there's enough for a weak town read over ???, and Jackrito is voting him. I think Axel would still be in ??? even if was doing what he's doing to someone else, becuase it's still within scum range.
Vote Rhand. I can't shake the feeling he's Up To Something, and it's at least not affected by emotional OMGUS.
Yeah I'm not totally sold on HR actually being a proper town read either, which I did vacilitate over. If you like, I can formally slide him back to Null with a town-lean-but-more-content-required caveat.
Yea trying to chisel this quote out of your wall is a pain so I'm not. I DID comment on this. #109. You're reaching. In fact the comment I make is again this falls apart by asking the question directly instead of assuming anything.
Full disclosure we ARE buddies. He's one of the my closest friends off this forum in the real world. I've known him for over a decade and we are historically bad at reading each other in these games.
You say my reasons for scum reading you are flimsy...ok.
Then refute them.
You don't bother offering up a counter argument for me to even consider. You assigning a disparaging adjective against an accusation doesn't convince me of anything. It's dismissive and comes across as avoidance.
which post are you referring to here?
I know I tend to come across more sure than I am, but not even Vaimes is a solid read. It’s a push worth pushing and I think I’m onto something with him pushing me for having 2 scumleans that can’t be scum together. But now I read your Vaimes read and building a world is apparently what he does on Day 1? He’s experienced, he shouldn’t project his own play on how I play, but if that’s how he thinks everyone should play... maybe I’m wrong. I have to reread him.
You basically parroted my Sloth and Axel reads. And we agree on Jackrito. Your read on me is just paranoia I think? I don’t get how you came to this conclusion. Are you consciously trying to not allow any omgus on your reads? Why would you do that? Self-wagon-analysis is a strong tool. You seem to want all of your voters to be town. Why?
The Axelrod/Lagoon thing was just something separate that I didn't like.
>Lagoon is not a solid read
I'm getting mixed signals here.
Yeh that’s what I mean with coming across more sure than I am. I use bravado in my pushes.
It isn’t though. I’m not sold enough on one to rule out the other.
The big difference is that for you I have something tangible to push on. On Axel I can’t get a grip.
Eh...Don't agree. Not so much on D1 at least.
Until we get flips to analyze trying to push scum teams is shooting into the dark this early I think.
But that’s the whole thing. I have reasons to suspect you both. I don’t think you’re scum together. Why do you think it’s so weird that my focus is on figuring that out? Your shielding that and counterpush on it is just... I don’t get it.
I mean if he's avoiding an OMGUS vote which is what he seems to be doing then it's not that weird
Your actions say "I believe that Lagoon is more likely scumt han Axelrod, therefore Axelrod is town." You act like it's a permanent commitment, but we all know it isn't, so I don't understand the issue.
My read on you is stronger than the one on Axel yes. But neither has the strength of “gotcha”.
I feel like we’re still going to be talking about this in lylo lol.
But why openly and consciously avoid OMGUS? It makes no sense. Analysing your own wagon is one of the strongest tools in mafia. Surely Eco knows that and wouldn’t make a show of not doing that as mafia?
Huh he did.
I guess Vaimes / Eco is never a thing now.
I can’t parse this. Creating a whole world view around someone asking him to ignore certain facts is un-Eco. For both alignments. It’s too compliant.
Mehhh
Town
Grape!
KJ, Eco, HR
ZDS, Ignoramus
VaGoo, Axel
Rhand, Jack, Ter
Sloth
Scum
Goo and Axel are null my gut says town on, Rhand, Jack, and Ter are null my gut doesn't feel strongly about.