1) Are you really making that high of a mountain out of me insisting the vote that ended RVS was a serious vote?
2) What exactly is ridiculous about that vote, pray tell?
Ok, so you acknowledge right here that we were still in RVS. You understand the concept of RVS.
And yet your smoking gun is that someone asked a not-so-serious question. During RVS. Halfway through page one?
That's absurd. (But you already know damn well it's absurd, because otherwise you wouldn't have had to post a disclaimer clarifying that your vote was a serious one, clearly indicating that you anticipated people assuming it wasn't. So you can add "not posting in good faith" to your list of demerits.)
There is no reason for anyone to be remotely this aggro when page one isn't even over, especially for something as nonexistent as "asking a softball question" during RVS. (And for clarification with regards to standards of what constitutes "too aggro" - I'm HIGHROLLER.)
and for his unexplained Grape read that doesn't fill me with confidence either
I don't trust Grape's statements with regards to you. Hell, I even quoted the post in question.
Also curious about what HR thinks about his silver going right after his gold.
This is a strange question to me. ZDS has a lot of suspicion on him. Grape posted his support of ZDS and immediately got called out on it. Why would it not be a natural thing, were ZDS and Grape both mafia, for Grape to want to distance himself from ZDS?
Your two top people who you are wolves, per your Gold/silver ranking has the silver voting for the gold.
I am curious what you think about that. I don't think that's natural if they are w/w. Not outside of the realms of possibility closer until the end of day, but you really think that is such a silver bullet that in your mind, Grape has no choice to bus his partner?
If it were me, I'd be rethinking my top two. I don't think Grape/ZDS are ever w/w with how quick the turn around is.
Your two top people who you are wolves, per your Gold/silver ranking has the silver voting for the gold.
I am curious what you think about that. I don't think that's natural if they are w/w. Not outside of the realms of possibility closer until the end of day, but you really think that is such a silver bullet that in your mind, Grape has no choice to bus his partner?
If it were me, I'd be rethinking my top two. I don't think Grape/ZDS are ever w/w with how quick the turn around is.
See, this rubs me the wrong way, because it comes off like you already know that they're not.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I want to at least note this for my own reference when I'm rereading the game.
How is it not natural if they're W/W? Grape makes a post defending ZDS and gets called out on it by more than one person. Meanwhile, ZDS continues to amass suspicion and just proceeds to double-down. I think it's only natural that Grape would want to distance himself. What other play does he have in that position? To continue defending ZDS would only result in more suspicion.
In a 7 player game on page 2, coming from me, one of the busiest*? wolves on mtgs, I would not vote my buddy based on one post from a guy who we are lucky if get a post a day from. I think your reason for voting ZDS is thin. If I am wrong about ZDS, I think it's far more likely Grape is town. And if I were you and I was town, and my two wolfiest people are voting one another, I would be questioning my reads in my head. Maybe not verbally in the thread, but I would at least consider I probably have 1 of them wrong in my head. You, if you are town seem to have the mindset you made a slamdunk vote that was so good, the most likely scenario is Grape is throwing ZDS under a bus as quickly as possible? o-0
Grape makes a post praising ZDS' post for being solid when it not only clearly wasn't solid, but was the same post that put ZDS two votes away from a lynch. If he got two more votes, he'd flip mafia, and then Grape would then be the immediate suspect the next day.
So in that position, yeah, of course I'd immediately try to backpedal and vote ZDS. That's the obvious choice of play.
Grape makes a post praising ZDS' post for being solid when it not only clearly wasn't solid, but was the same post that put ZDS two votes away from a lynch. If he got two more votes, he'd flip mafia, and then Grape would then be the immediate suspect the next day.
So in that position, yeah, of course I'd immediately try to backpedal and vote ZDS. That's the obvious choice of play.
That would mean mafia!ZDS’s only votes are the two non-mafia on his wagon. Would mafia really ever do that?
Grape makes a post praising ZDS' post for being solid when it not only clearly wasn't solid, but was the same post that put ZDS two votes away from a lynch. If he got two more votes, he'd flip mafia, and then Grape would then be the immediate suspect the next day.
So in that position, yeah, of course I'd immediately try to backpedal and vote ZDS. That's the obvious choice of play.
Highroller talks in to many absolutes for my liking, literally feels like he is creating a narrative everytime he talks. He has the whole game figured out, so why are we even playing lol?
I will comment more once I reread to make sure I don't end up talking out my ass
Grape makes a post praising ZDS' post for being solid when it not only clearly wasn't solid, but was the same post that put ZDS two votes away from a lynch. If he got two more votes, he'd flip mafia, and then Grape would then be the immediate suspect the next day.
So in that position, yeah, of course I'd immediately try to backpedal and vote ZDS. That's the obvious choice of play.
That would mean mafia!ZDS’s only votes are the two non-mafia on his wagon. Would mafia really ever do that?
your the pro mafia played here, does that stuff cross your mind enough, to have an affect on how you play? Else I don't care to much for it.
Grape makes a post praising ZDS' post for being solid when it not only clearly wasn't solid, but was the same post that put ZDS two votes away from a lynch. If he got two more votes, he'd flip mafia, and then Grape would then be the immediate suspect the next day.
So in that position, yeah, of course I'd immediately try to backpedal and vote ZDS. That's the obvious choice of play.
That would mean mafia!ZDS’s only votes are the two non-mafia on his wagon. Would mafia really ever do that?
your the pro mafia played here, does that stuff cross your mind enough, to have an affect on how you play? Else I don't care to much for it.
Yes. When I am mafia, I make sure that there are no traces leading to my buddies after my flip. And this trace is too obvious for ZDS to leave. If HR is right about Grape and ZDS being buddies, then they are playing way too careless.
Grape putting ZDS at Oust-1 was completely unnecessary and ZDS hating on the whole wagon apart from Grape is too big of a trace.
Both of them are better players than that.
In mafia!HR worlds this means he’s mafia with exactly ZDS. Mafia don’t connect two townies for no reason because lynching one destroys the scum read on the other. That means if HR is mafia, one of ZDS and Grape is too.
They do like to link a buddy to a townie to create a chainlynch on town when the buddy flips.
HR is clearly convinced that what ZDS did should get him lynched. That is true in town! And mafia!HR worlds.
So if he is mafia, he is assuming that out of ZDS and Grape, ZDS will flip first.
To make the chainlynch work, that means Grape is the town in the pairing that he wants to lynch after the ZDS flip.
I can see HR going for a bus here.
Turning that around, ZDS is voting HR. In a 7 player game, voting each other on Day 1 is terrible unless they think that getting towncred on each other’s lynch is the best way to win. Which is... bad play and not what I would ever see ZDS agreeing to. So while I can see HR making this play, I do not see ZDS go for it. Ever.
Conclusion: HR is not mafia with ZDS and not without ZDS so he is town.
1) Are you really making that high of a mountain out of me insisting the vote that ended RVS was a serious vote?
2) What exactly is ridiculous about that vote, pray tell?
Ok, so you acknowledge right here that we were still in RVS. You understand the concept of RVS.
And yet your smoking gun is that someone asked a not-so-serious question. During RVS. Halfway through page one?
That's absurd. (But you already know damn well it's absurd, because otherwise you wouldn't have had to post a disclaimer clarifying that your vote was a serious one, clearly indicating that you anticipated people assuming it wasn't. So you can add "not posting in good faith" to your list of demerits.)
There is no reason for anyone to be remotely this aggro when page one isn't even over, especially for something as nonexistent as "asking a softball question" during RVS. (And for clarification with regards to standards of what constitutes "too aggro" - I'm HIGHROLLER.)
So my vote was "ridiculous" for being "too aggro" for its timing, is that correct?
First of all, page 1 and RVS don't have a magical property that makes it impossible for telling things to happen then.
Secondly, there's always something that happens during RVS that ends RVS. Often that "something" is a serious vote based on things that happened earlier during RVS.
Thirdly, I know many players get paralysed by the lack of early info, but I personally prefer going hard after my scum pings especially early on. It generates the discussion and content that, in turn, helps the slow starters get going. It's a playstyle preference.
From 1 and 2, the timing is irrelevant. From 3, whether I was too aggressive is subjective.
Even if I give you the benefit of doubt and buy that you were taken aback by my sudden and early Serious Post(tm), you still barely have enough to justify an end-of-RVS vote, never mind a RVS-is-long-dead one. The vote I made during RVS on page 1 had a more solid basis than the vote you made on page 2 after a decent amount of serious talk (a lot of which was generated by my vote, by the way).
In mafia!HR worlds this means he’s mafia with exactly ZDS. Mafia don’t connect two townies for no reason because lynching one destroys the scum read on the other. That means if HR is mafia, one of ZDS and Grape is too.
I don't get it, can you explain that starting hypothesis?
Also, your thought process only includes HR, Grape and me. Is there a reason you are not considering an HR+(Poke/Whispy/Johnny) team, other than having our three names in mind because of #107?
———
I have a hard time believing HR's reads are genuine, there is too much of a discrepancy between their lack of a solid basis and how sure of himself he acts.
It’s an unconscious thing mafia does (or rather doesn’t do): when you’re mafia you don’t say town players X and Y are scum together and then push that narrative to get X yeeted because the X flip makes Y look good.
When mafia connect people, they do it to chain yeet. And that only works if the flip on X makes Y look bad. X (mafia) and Y (town) are scum together; if X (town) flips town, Y (town) is mafia etc.
I have a hard time believing HR's reads are genuine, there is too much of a discrepancy between their lack of a solid basis and how sure of himself he acts.
And here I thought you had played with HR before.
@Rhand I am not a better player than anything but I appreciate the faith!
For the record I maintain that ZDS's opening was in fact solid.
But 78 just feels like disparate parts not adding up to a cohesive thought process. First red flag: the "rhetorical" questions don't line up with his vote. They have an element of performance to them. The wording is going out of it's way to highlight that ZDS doesn't care about the answers and is just highlighting the scumminess of the posts. This is normally a fine tactic, and I use it often but it's still a scummy tactic.
The main ping is though that his explanations section just doesn't mesh with the HR focused part of his post. And the "soft clears" on myself and GJ are absurdly soft. His read of me is a meta read based on one game and is paired with a suspcious/flabberghasted question to me right above it wrt HR. And the GJ read is similarly one game meta. Just feels forced next to the this game focus and ignoring meta towards HR.
Grape makes a post praising ZDS' post for being solid when it not only clearly wasn't solid, but was the same post that put ZDS two votes away from a lynch. If he got two more votes, he'd flip mafia, and then Grape would then be the immediate suspect the next day.
So in that position, yeah, of course I'd immediately try to backpedal and vote ZDS. That's the obvious choice of play.
That would mean mafia!ZDS’s only votes are the two non-mafia on his wagon. Would mafia really ever do that?
Thirdly, I know many players get paralysed by the lack of early info, but I personally prefer going hard after my scum pings especially early on. It generates the discussion and content that, in turn, helps the slow starters get going. It's a playstyle preference.
Cool. Your scum ping still has to make any actual sense whatsoever. It didn't. Ergo you got voted. This isn't complicated.
so i've done some digging and reread ZDS's first post along with his vote, and I've decided two things
1. Yes the reason is kinda garbage
2. I still don't think he is a wolf
I still feel like highroller predetermined this push, and has no plans of letting up whatsoever
So ya, not interested in this
I think its more likely that GJ is a wolf, just because of his overall tone
so i've done some digging and reread ZDS's first post along with his vote, and I've decided two things
1. Yes the reason is kinda garbage
2. I still don't think he is a wolf
I still feel like highroller predetermined this push, and has no plans of letting up whatsoever
So ya, not interested in this
I think its more likely that GJ is a wolf, just because of his overall tone
If you think HR predetermined his push shouldn't that make him a wolf to you?
Him having no intention of putting it down and having predetermined it are two very different things. I agree with the second and do not believe the first at all.
I don't recall calling him a wolf, and I don't really agree that ZDS has to be a wolf here either
While ZDS' initial vote and push was mediocre, I still don't really feel mal-intent behind it
haven't play with Highroller before, so it could just be a play-style thing
but not currently a fan of it, guess we will see where it goes
gun to my head based off my feelings now
its probably like Pokechu/GJ
I mean you implied he was a wolf by calling the ZDS push predetermined. It would be odd to think a townie had a predetermined push before the game started.
And I agree that ZDS wasn't initially bad, it's very much a development from post 78 onward. I think HR is correct but for reasons I still actively disagree with.
I mean you implied he was a wolf by calling the ZDS push predetermined. It would be odd to think a townie had a predetermined push before the game started.
And I agree that ZDS wasn't initially bad, it's very much a development from post 78 onward. I think HR is correct but for reasons I still actively disagree with.
ok i guess that is a fair point lol, didn't think about that wording
Though I will say, games this small, don't really leave much room for the mind to wander
so like Wolves need to really put themselves out there to be liked
GJ feels very complacent, which I guess is a good way of putting it
like I can't tell what he is feeling, like ZDS is one of his town leans, and from what I recall, most people don't like ZDS
I forgot where Rhand stands on the matter
GJ would be my second choice right now but not with enough confidence to vote. I'm torn because I get that floating sensation you're describing and I want to scum read it but I am stopping myself because of the point about the game being so small. Would mafia really just not do anything?
GJ would be my second choice right now but not with enough confidence to vote. I'm torn because I get that floating sensation you're describing and I want to scum read it but I am stopping myself because of the point about the game being so small. Would mafia really just not do anything?
do nothing? I don't think anyone truly does nothing, but it certainly isn't easy for every mafia to look or play townie
Im too tired to think right now
but like my point was that, Highroller has decided ZDS was wolfy, and anything afterwards is just more fuel on the fire
given by his, "You made a bad push, and now you are doubling back"
like there really isn't room for town!ZDS to do anything in regards to highroller's thought process
It’s an unconscious thing mafia does (or rather doesn’t do): when you’re mafia you don’t say town players X and Y are scum together and then push that narrative to get X yeeted because the X flip makes Y look good.
When mafia connect people, they do it to chain yeet. And that only works if the flip on X makes Y look bad. X (mafia) and Y (town) are scum together; if X (town) flips town, Y (town) is mafia etc.
I don't know about that. I don't think bussing is as common as you imply, and it's not that rare either for scum to go "oops X was town, but I'm still right about Y". I'd love to see statistical evidence for or against your theory, in the meantime you get an of scepticism.
I have a hard time believing HR's reads are genuine, there is too much of a discrepancy between their lack of a solid basis and how sure of himself he acts.
And here I thought you had played with HR before.
Yes I have, and I dare you to tell me the intense, relentless and unforgiving Highroller from Snow White is the same Highroller who posted #119 (quoted further below) (IMO his previous posts also showed him being more performative than genuine, but it's especially bad with 119).
For the record I maintain that ZDS's opening was in fact solid.
But 78 just feels like disparate parts not adding up to a cohesive thought process. First red flag: the "rhetorical" questions don't line up with his vote. They have an element of performance to them. The wording is going out of it's way to highlight that ZDS doesn't care about the answers and is just highlighting the scumminess of the posts. This is normally a fine tactic, and I use it often but it's still a scummy tactic.
I gave my reasons for voting HR right under the vote itself. I make no reference to his set-up speculation or my rhetorical question about it. You are fighting a windmill.
The main ping is though that his explanations section just doesn't mesh with the HR focused part of his post.
Me: *Asks HR about his weaksauce vote on me and his unexplained read on you*
Also me: *Votes HR for his weaksauce vote on me and his unexplained read on you*
You: "his explanations section just doesn't mesh with the HR focused part of his post"
And the "soft clears" on myself and GJ are absurdly soft. His read of me is a meta read based on one game and is paired with a suspcious/flabberghasted question to me right above it wrt HR. And the GJ read is similarly one game meta. Just feels forced next to the this game focus and ignoring meta towards HR.
You of all people have no right to accuse anyone of clearing others too easily or ignoring HR's meta.
And yes, they are soft clears. Not strong, definitive clears. It's in the name. They are there for temporary POE until we get further evidence. What's your issue with that?
For the record I have a stronger (non-meta) town read on you because of that push: it pisses me off how wrong you are, but I think you are more likely to be town with a massive blindspot than malicious scum.
And can you actually answer my question about why HR is the only reacting so badly to the game mechanics? It's not a push against you.
Thirdly, I know many players get paralysed by the lack of early info, but I personally prefer going hard after my scum pings especially early on. It generates the discussion and content that, in turn, helps the slow starters get going. It's a playstyle preference.
Cool. Your scum ping still has to make any actual sense whatsoever. It didn't. Ergo you got voted. This isn't complicated.
Out of my entire post, you only responded to the part that gives you some leeway?
like I can't tell what he is feeling, like ZDS is one of his town leans, and from what I recall, most people don't like ZDS
I forgot where Rhand stands on the matter
The same can (or could) be said about you, I'll need more than that to reverse my read on him.
It’s an unconscious thing mafia does (or rather doesn’t do): when you’re mafia you don’t say town players X and Y are scum together and then push that narrative to get X yeeted because the X flip makes Y look good.
When mafia connect people, they do it to chain yeet. And that only works if the flip on X makes Y look bad. X (mafia) and Y (town) are scum together; if X (town) flips town, Y (town) is mafia etc.
I don't know about that. I don't think bussing is as common as you imply, and it's not that rare either for scum to go "oops X was town, but I'm still right about Y". I'd love to see statistical evidence for or against your theory, in the meantime you get an of scepticism.
Thinking back, I'm not being clear here.
Rhand, I'm not asking you to go make a statistical analysis, that's a crazy burden of proof. I'd love to see that analysis (during or after this game), but I have no expectations. Until I do see that analysis (if I ever do), I have no clue if your theory is right or wrong and I'm ignoring it. This has no impact on my current read on you (leaning town).
Maybe I'm misremembering but my recollection of HR is he barely needs a pretext to vote or pursue anything.
Anyway I intentionally make provocative statements. It's what I do. It's a thing I do knowing It's inherently scummy though. So I'm not going to just give you a pass because I do similar things. Especially when I find your reasoning suspect.
Out of my entire post, you only responded to the part that gives you some leeway?
Since when are you such a coward?
Post something that amounts to more than just saying, "no u" and I'll be sure to get right on that.
You tried to pounce on someone for posting something that wasn't advancing the game... during RVS. The correct response to this is, "******* duh, dude, that's how RVS works."
Yet you still made that completely baseless vote. So the question is do you not understand what RVS is, or are your argument trying to justify your vote disingenous? Well, it cannot be the first one, you have a clear understanding of what RVS is. Therefore, only one explanation remains.
I started playing in 2006 and this is my first time seeing someone treat RVS like a holy time period where nothing telling can happen, and treat ending RVS like a blasphemy.
IIRC you started a while ago as well, I have no idea why you are acting like a newcomer who is taking the name "Random Voting Stage" way too literally.
Again, the entire point of RVS is for something to happen in it that puts an end to it. Because the first serious votes are based on RVS stuff, they are rarely great votes. Don't act like this is your first RVS ever.
Anyway, you are voting me for voting Rhand over #25, and your secondary scumspect is Grape who had a "scum ping" from that post and defended my vote-post as "solid".
What makes you so sure there was nothing to see in that post?
I will NOT take "because it happened in RVS" for an answer. It's a cop-out.
If Grape and me are scum for attacking #25, why aren't you treating Rhand as conftown? Why did you give your bronze medals to "Everyone else" rather than "Everyone except Rhand"?
Anyway I intentionally make provocative statements. It's what I do. It's a thing I do knowing It's inherently scummy though.
What the **** Let's agree to disagree on whether "provocative statements" are "inherently scummy" and on whether our playstyles are that similar.
———
To reiterate, Highroller doesn't make sense. He is grasping at straws with his vote, and not taking the logical conclusion that if the push on Rhand at the end of RVS was scummy then Rhand himself must be town.
The more Rhand makes OK posts* the more I think HR TMI'd and attacked a push he knew was bad because he knew Rhand was town.
*(Though I'd like to see more reads and less theorycrafting from him)
It’s an unconscious thing mafia does (or rather doesn’t do): when you’re mafia you don’t say town players X and Y are scum together and then push that narrative to get X yeeted because the X flip makes Y look good.
When mafia connect people, they do it to chain yeet. And that only works if the flip on X makes Y look bad. X (mafia) and Y (town) are scum together; if X (town) flips town, Y (town) is mafia etc.
I don't know about that. I don't think bussing is as common as you imply, and it's not that rare either for scum to go "oops X was town, but I'm still right about Y". I'd love to see statistical evidence for or against your theory, in the meantime you get an of scepticism.
Thinking back, I'm not being clear here.
Rhand, I'm not asking you to go make a statistical analysis, that's a crazy burden of proof. I'd love to see that analysis (during or after this game), but I have no expectations. Until I do see that analysis (if I ever do), I have no clue if your theory is right or wrong and I'm ignoring it. This has no impact on my current read on you (leaning town).
Feel free to prove me wrong I would say
It’s just a mindset thing. Of course you will find an exception here and there, but I am convinced that mafia will automatically make connections that yield results in the future.
I wrote a long explanation on that a few years ago when Proph asked me about it.
As far as looking for statistical evidence goes, I am way too lazy for that.
I started playing in 2006 and this is my first time seeing someone treat RVS like a holy time period where nothing telling can happen, and treat ending RVS like a blasphemy.
IIRC you started a while ago as well, I have no idea why you are acting like a newcomer who is taking the name "Random Voting Stage" way too literally.
Again, the entire point of RVS is for something to happen in it that puts an end to it. Because the first serious votes are based on RVS stuff, they are rarely great votes. Don't act like this is your first RVS ever.
Anyway, you are voting me for voting Rhand over #25, and your secondary scumspect is Grape who had a "scum ping" from that post and defended my vote-post as "solid".
What makes you so sure there was nothing to see in that post?
I will NOT take "because it happened in RVS" for an answer. It's a cop-out.
If Grape and me are scum for attacking #25, why aren't you treating Rhand as conftown? Why did you give your bronze medals to "Everyone else" rather than "Everyone except Rhand"?
Anyway I intentionally make provocative statements. It's what I do. It's a thing I do knowing It's inherently scummy though.
What the **** Let's agree to disagree on whether "provocative statements" are "inherently scummy" and on whether our playstyles are that similar.
———
To reiterate, Highroller doesn't make sense. He is grasping at straws with his vote, and not taking the logical conclusion that if the push on Rhand at the end of RVS was scummy then Rhand himself must be town.
The more Rhand makes OK posts* the more I think HR TMI'd and attacked a push he knew was bad because he knew Rhand was town.
*(Though I'd like to see more reads and less theorycrafting from him)
Ehh you’ll always get those kind of reads from me, combined with gut (and my gut doesn’t work on most players here). You have played with me before, right?
Although calling it theorycrafting... In my brain it’s looking for mafia and town mindset. With reasons why certain plays come from one alignment more often than the other. And a layer of player meta on top of that.
This is a strange question to me. ZDS has a lot of suspicion on him. Grape posted his support of ZDS and immediately got called out on it. Why would it not be a natural thing, were ZDS and Grape both mafia, for Grape to want to distance himself from ZDS?
See, this rubs me the wrong way, because it comes off like you already know that they're not.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I want to at least note this for my own reference when I'm rereading the game.
How is it not natural if they're W/W? Grape makes a post defending ZDS and gets called out on it by more than one person. Meanwhile, ZDS continues to amass suspicion and just proceeds to double-down. I think it's only natural that Grape would want to distance himself. What other play does he have in that position? To continue defending ZDS would only result in more suspicion.
I felt a shift from these posts. I really did. Like, some sort of tonal shift. Some energy vibe. I was OK with the first but not the second. Even with the first I was "ehh" on (with regards to it coming from town!Highroller) because I don't like the shade at the end (implying GJ is TMI'ing). But the second takes it to another level and presumes as if the answer is on a silver platter and all we must do is listen to him. Like, it's very presumptuous and way too quick to solve. And I think the thing is, you could have this hypothesis, of course, but how Highroller is using it to actively put down GJ *without* supplementing this suspicion of GJ with additional evidence, is strange. He is consciously shading GJ but not taking it anywhere. Is he suspicious of GJ from these posts? IMO GJ's questions didn't warrant this level of shade from Highroller. This raises my eyebrow
Also curious about what HR thinks about his silver going right after his gold. Bronze here feels awkward as well.
Why does the bronze feel awkward? This bronze/silver/gold post was one of the first posts on page 2 (#68). It's not unfeasible that Highroller would have everyone else in the "maybes" but have a specific top two that he would want to lynch, so GJ was also shading somewhat. Possible scum!GJ doing that and town!HR slapping silly back.
But it could also be town!GJ making a genuine observation/question (even if he may already know the answer, or have an answer, he just wants to hear HR's), and HR not liking being pushed on something he may not have fully considered or realized.
I'm not sure which world I believe in more as of this moment but after I make all my responses I might have more of a Blue's Clue
Lastly, I think ZDS has given the best read of me so far, "He isn't playing like his wolf or town game"
It wasn't me, I believe you are referring to Rhand's #75
Hm did you just give Wisp a reason to townread me rather than taking the undeserved credit that no one was going to look back for anyways?
That’s not a scum mindset.
Back to the drawing board I guess.
Woodstock would like to comment that for having a macho man as your avatar this post was surprisingly weak.
I would (confidently) say that post from ZDS was NAI. It's not a "scum mindset" but it really doesn't have to be (or not be) to absolve someone of suspicion. Wisp maybe just had a surreal flatulence (brain fart) and typed the wrong name, either way it wasn't that much credit given to whoever made the observation that Wisp wasn't playing like either of his games. It's preemptive to loosen up on someone because they don't cap on an opportunity to steal a penny's worth of credit. NAI for ZDS but I'm not sure how I feel about you from this. Doghouse on fire I say it's a bad look but this is my $0.02, pearls of wisdom. Old dog and new tricks and all
@Rhand: Your theory (yes I call it that) is NAI and not backed by any proof (that I can access), so it's completely useless to me (be it for reading you or for reading HR) .
@Whispy: I currently have Johnny as leaning town. You have my attention since you have the opposite opinion.
@Pokechu: In the TvS interaction you feel happened between Highroller and Johnny, which one is town and which one is scum? #141 is directed against HR, while #142 leans more towards GJ being scum.
Lastly, I think ZDS has given the best read of me so far, "He isn't playing like his wolf or town game"
It wasn't me, I believe you are referring to Rhand's #75
Hm did you just give Wisp a reason to townread me rather than taking the undeserved credit that no one was going to look back for anyways?
That’s not a scum mindset.
Back to the drawing board I guess.
Woodstock would like to comment that for having a macho man as your avatar this post was surprisingly weak.
I would (confidently) say that post from ZDS was NAI. It's not a "scum mindset" but it really doesn't have to be (or not be) to absolve someone of suspicion. Wisp maybe just had a surreal flatulence (brain fart) and typed the wrong name, either way it wasn't that much credit given to whoever made the observation that Wisp wasn't playing like either of his games. It's preemptive to loosen up on someone because they don't cap on an opportunity to steal a penny's worth of credit. NAI for ZDS but I'm not sure how I feel about you from this. Doghouse on fire I say it's a bad look but this is my $0.02, pearls of wisdom. Old dog and new tricks and all
You probably used that laughing Snoopy because you were waiting for an opportunity to use it, but it makes me want to lynch you.
Everything else we’re getting is just hedging.
Do you have a real opinion on anyone? Even a townread?
OMGUS can be a natural adverse reaction to what you feel is an unfair attack, or it can be a calculated attempt to discredit both the attack and the attacker.
Which one do you think Rhand is doing?
I'm not going to jump at your throat if I don't like your answer... as long as you actually commit to a stance and stop the "on the one hand this, on the other hand that" dance.
I’m pretty sure the bolded means ZDS and GJ are unaligned.
Why do you say this? And to clarify: do you mean unaligned as not wolf/wolf? Also, since this was post #45, and there's been two new pages of content, do you still have this viewpoint? Do you think their townreads of each other (ZDS softclears GJ in post #78, GJ townreads ZDS in his interactions with you and also his readslist post #99) support them being unaligned?
I am more convinced by your argument over GJ's (wrt Grape/ZDS, which would be town or scum) and thought GJ's was strange. But not necessarily wrong or scummy. I do think GJ's townread of ZDS could be pocketing though (even though he said he doesn't pocket). Also think it's strange that ZDS came into the game hard hitting and believes he shifted us out of RVS but in #78 he quickly softclears three different players. Including himself, that's 4 of the 7 players. How do you make strides to solve the game when you can only suspect three players? Pings me. This is why I feel like there's pocketing on at least one side here.
Lastly, I think ZDS has given the best read of me so far, "He isn't playing like his wolf or town game"
It wasn't me, I believe you are referring to Rhand's #75
Hm did you just give Wisp a reason to townread me rather than taking the undeserved credit that no one was going to look back for anyways?
That’s not a scum mindset.
Back to the drawing board I guess.
Woodstock would like to comment that for having a macho man as your avatar this post was surprisingly weak.
I would (confidently) say that post from ZDS was NAI. It's not a "scum mindset" but it really doesn't have to be (or not be) to absolve someone of suspicion. Wisp maybe just had a surreal flatulence (brain fart) and typed the wrong name, either way it wasn't that much credit given to whoever made the observation that Wisp wasn't playing like either of his games. It's preemptive to loosen up on someone because they don't cap on an opportunity to steal a penny's worth of credit. NAI for ZDS but I'm not sure how I feel about you from this. Doghouse on fire I say it's a bad look but this is my $0.02, pearls of wisdom. Old dog and new tricks and all
You probably used that laughing Snoopy because you were waiting for an opportunity to use it, but it makes me want to lynch you.
Everything else we’re getting is just hedging.
Do you have a real opinion on anyone? Even a townread?
I haven't finished my posts yet, if that was all you were getting from me trust me I'd be disappointed too.
Meant to include this in my last post (still not finished posting all my thoughts obv)
I don't think ZDS is a wolf off of this. I can't really expand this idea further, but he reminds me of me (arrogant bastard that I am).
Of the whole page 1, I probably like Grape the least so far.
My feeling is that mafia!ZDS saw town!Grape say he had a light scum ping on me and figured that a push in my direction would get a following.
Have you played with ZDS before? I feel like on D1 scum is not going to think that any push on any player would get much of a following. But I did like your analysis here..... $0.02. Let me ponder on this and see if I can make heads or tails, make an observation. This just pinged me. I *want* to say this is shading (because it seems so presumptuous) but I *know* it (probably) isn't. This pinged me for some reason and I'm not sure why
What's your take on Wisp? To try to explain my ZDS read again I liked his process of drawing a conclusion from Wisp's claim. I think there was something there to dig into and my initial reaction was his, but when I had a second thought I drew the opposite conclusion so I think that ZDS scum reading Wisp for that is a very natural and real thought process even if I disagree.
You have an awesome and menacing rolename. I'm envious, and at the same time I wonder: why would you claim it? If you are town, you made yourself a NK target (I had confirmation rolenames and abilities are linked, so it's unlikely you have a *****ty role with an awesome name).
Also the "I am town as well what a coincidence" line sounds like "hello fellow youth town", but even I will admit I may be reading too much into it.
What conclusion did he make here? Correct me if I'm wrong but this is ZDS' only post commenting on Wisp's claim. He pointed out the obvious (flavor-claiming makes you a NK target, something I said on the first page #21). Also slightly shaded with his last comment. Is the conclusion the Rhand/Wisp scum team? I guess but like others in the game I wouldn't call that solid (although I am late on that). Wouldn't call it a conclusion either tbh.
I do like your #122 though. How do you feel about it now, seeing that ZDS has given Wisp a soft-clear? Does it make this earlier conclusion performative (similar to his #78)?
And aside from the confusion at the roles, do you have any posts from HR that you liked? Or does your townread on him only hinge on how he is confused?
I disagree. HR seemed like he was trying to start some pointless speculation, which is scummy because it dilutes the useful info/useless chatter ratio. Then he repented (so to speak) by implying he did ask the mod and dropping the public question entirely — which proved me wrong and, at the same time, made him more townie.
There is nothing useless in poking to make sure.
This is a very early post but it caught my attention since I didn't quite "get' it. How did HR "prove" you wrong here? Between your original post entering the thread, and this one, HR hadn't made a post in the thread. And how did it make him more townie? Just want to see your thought process here because I don't get it (the last part). I can def see how it dilutes the info/chatter ratio and I see why someone would take a problem with any kind of empty posting but as is, the way you framed it (he proved you wrong and made himself more townie) makes it sound more malicious than it might be IMO
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And yet your smoking gun is that someone asked a not-so-serious question. During RVS. Halfway through page one?
That's absurd. (But you already know damn well it's absurd, because otherwise you wouldn't have had to post a disclaimer clarifying that your vote was a serious one, clearly indicating that you anticipated people assuming it wasn't. So you can add "not posting in good faith" to your list of demerits.)
There is no reason for anyone to be remotely this aggro when page one isn't even over, especially for something as nonexistent as "asking a softball question" during RVS. (And for clarification with regards to standards of what constitutes "too aggro" - I'm HIGHROLLER.)
I don't trust Grape's statements with regards to you. Hell, I even quoted the post in question.
This is a strange question to me. ZDS has a lot of suspicion on him. Grape posted his support of ZDS and immediately got called out on it. Why would it not be a natural thing, were ZDS and Grape both mafia, for Grape to want to distance himself from ZDS?
You know something I don't, GJ?
I am curious what you think about that. I don't think that's natural if they are w/w. Not outside of the realms of possibility closer until the end of day, but you really think that is such a silver bullet that in your mind, Grape has no choice to bus his partner?
If it were me, I'd be rethinking my top two. I don't think Grape/ZDS are ever w/w with how quick the turn around is.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I want to at least note this for my own reference when I'm rereading the game.
How is it not natural if they're W/W? Grape makes a post defending ZDS and gets called out on it by more than one person. Meanwhile, ZDS continues to amass suspicion and just proceeds to double-down. I think it's only natural that Grape would want to distance himself. What other play does he have in that position? To continue defending ZDS would only result in more suspicion.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Grape makes a post praising ZDS' post for being solid when it not only clearly wasn't solid, but was the same post that put ZDS two votes away from a lynch. If he got two more votes, he'd flip mafia, and then Grape would then be the immediate suspect the next day.
So in that position, yeah, of course I'd immediately try to backpedal and vote ZDS. That's the obvious choice of play.
That would mean mafia!ZDS’s only votes are the two non-mafia on his wagon. Would mafia really ever do that?
I will comment more once I reread to make sure I don't end up talking out my ass
Yes. When I am mafia, I make sure that there are no traces leading to my buddies after my flip. And this trace is too obvious for ZDS to leave. If HR is right about Grape and ZDS being buddies, then they are playing way too careless.
Grape putting ZDS at Oust-1 was completely unnecessary and ZDS hating on the whole wagon apart from Grape is too big of a trace.
Both of them are better players than that.
Doubt he cares about that though
In mafia!HR worlds this means he’s mafia with exactly ZDS. Mafia don’t connect two townies for no reason because lynching one destroys the scum read on the other. That means if HR is mafia, one of ZDS and Grape is too.
They do like to link a buddy to a townie to create a chainlynch on town when the buddy flips.
HR is clearly convinced that what ZDS did should get him lynched. That is true in town! And mafia!HR worlds.
So if he is mafia, he is assuming that out of ZDS and Grape, ZDS will flip first.
To make the chainlynch work, that means Grape is the town in the pairing that he wants to lynch after the ZDS flip.
I can see HR going for a bus here.
Turning that around, ZDS is voting HR. In a 7 player game, voting each other on Day 1 is terrible unless they think that getting towncred on each other’s lynch is the best way to win. Which is... bad play and not what I would ever see ZDS agreeing to. So while I can see HR making this play, I do not see ZDS go for it. Ever.
Conclusion: HR is not mafia with ZDS and not without ZDS so he is town.
Thanks Wisp
So my vote was "ridiculous" for being "too aggro" for its timing, is that correct?
First of all, page 1 and RVS don't have a magical property that makes it impossible for telling things to happen then.
Secondly, there's always something that happens during RVS that ends RVS. Often that "something" is a serious vote based on things that happened earlier during RVS.
Thirdly, I know many players get paralysed by the lack of early info, but I personally prefer going hard after my scum pings especially early on. It generates the discussion and content that, in turn, helps the slow starters get going. It's a playstyle preference.
From 1 and 2, the timing is irrelevant. From 3, whether I was too aggressive is subjective.
Even if I give you the benefit of doubt and buy that you were taken aback by my sudden and early Serious Post(tm), you still barely have enough to justify an end-of-RVS vote, never mind a RVS-is-long-dead one. The vote I made during RVS on page 1 had a more solid basis than the vote you made on page 2 after a decent amount of serious talk (a lot of which was generated by my vote, by the way).
I don't get it, can you explain that starting hypothesis?
Also, your thought process only includes HR, Grape and me. Is there a reason you are not considering an HR+(Poke/Whispy/Johnny) team, other than having our three names in mind because of #107?
———
I have a hard time believing HR's reads are genuine, there is too much of a discrepancy between their lack of a solid basis and how sure of himself he acts.
When mafia connect people, they do it to chain yeet. And that only works if the flip on X makes Y look bad. X (mafia) and Y (town) are scum together; if X (town) flips town, Y (town) is mafia etc.
And here I thought you had played with HR before.
@Rhand I am not a better player than anything but I appreciate the faith!
For the record I maintain that ZDS's opening was in fact solid.
But 78 just feels like disparate parts not adding up to a cohesive thought process. First red flag: the "rhetorical" questions don't line up with his vote. They have an element of performance to them. The wording is going out of it's way to highlight that ZDS doesn't care about the answers and is just highlighting the scumminess of the posts. This is normally a fine tactic, and I use it often but it's still a scummy tactic.
The main ping is though that his explanations section just doesn't mesh with the HR focused part of his post. And the "soft clears" on myself and GJ are absurdly soft. His read of me is a meta read based on one game and is paired with a suspcious/flabberghasted question to me right above it wrt HR. And the GJ read is similarly one game meta. Just feels forced next to the this game focus and ignoring meta towards HR.
Cool. Your scum ping still has to make any actual sense whatsoever. It didn't. Ergo you got voted. This isn't complicated.
1. Yes the reason is kinda garbage
2. I still don't think he is a wolf
I still feel like highroller predetermined this push, and has no plans of letting up whatsoever
So ya, not interested in this
I think its more likely that GJ is a wolf, just because of his overall tone
Grape
HR
Wisp
Rhand
GJ/Poke
ZDS
Scum
If you think HR predetermined his push shouldn't that make him a wolf to you?
Him having no intention of putting it down and having predetermined it are two very different things. I agree with the second and do not believe the first at all.
While ZDS' initial vote and push was mediocre, I still don't really feel mal-intent behind it
haven't play with Highroller before, so it could just be a play-style thing
but not currently a fan of it, guess we will see where it goes
gun to my head based off my feelings now
its probably like Pokechu/GJ
And I agree that ZDS wasn't initially bad, it's very much a development from post 78 onward. I think HR is correct but for reasons I still actively disagree with.
vote: GJ
so like Wolves need to really put themselves out there to be liked
GJ feels very complacent, which I guess is a good way of putting it
I forgot where Rhand stands on the matter
GJ would be my second choice right now but not with enough confidence to vote. I'm torn because I get that floating sensation you're describing and I want to scum read it but I am stopping myself because of the point about the game being so small. Would mafia really just not do anything?
Im too tired to think right now
but like my point was that, Highroller has decided ZDS was wolfy, and anything afterwards is just more fuel on the fire
given by his, "You made a bad push, and now you are doubling back"
like there really isn't room for town!ZDS to do anything in regards to highroller's thought process
(Expect posts from me soon. Apologies for inactivity. Won't happen again - you have my word, Woodstock's, and Charlie's!)
What does that even mean?
I don't know about that. I don't think bussing is as common as you imply, and it's not that rare either for scum to go "oops X was town, but I'm still right about Y". I'd love to see statistical evidence for or against your theory, in the meantime you get an of scepticism.
Yes I have, and I dare you to tell me the intense, relentless and unforgiving Highroller from Snow White is the same Highroller who posted #119 (quoted further below) (IMO his previous posts also showed him being more performative than genuine, but it's especially bad with 119).
I gave my reasons for voting HR right under the vote itself. I make no reference to his set-up speculation or my rhetorical question about it. You are fighting a windmill.
Me: *Asks HR about his weaksauce vote on me and his unexplained read on you*
Also me: *Votes HR for his weaksauce vote on me and his unexplained read on you*
You: "his explanations section just doesn't mesh with the HR focused part of his post"
Tell me straight, are you trolling me?
You of all people have no right to accuse anyone of clearing others too easily or ignoring HR's meta.
And yes, they are soft clears. Not strong, definitive clears. It's in the name. They are there for temporary POE until we get further evidence. What's your issue with that?
For the record I have a stronger (non-meta) town read on you because of that push: it pisses me off how wrong you are, but I think you are more likely to be town with a massive blindspot than malicious scum.
And can you actually answer my question about why HR is the only reacting so badly to the game mechanics? It's not a push against you.
Out of my entire post, you only responded to the part that gives you some leeway?
Since when are you such a coward?
The same can (or could) be said about you, I'll need more than that to reverse my read on him.
Rhand, I'm not asking you to go make a statistical analysis, that's a crazy burden of proof. I'd love to see that analysis (during or after this game), but I have no expectations. Until I do see that analysis (if I ever do), I have no clue if your theory is right or wrong and I'm ignoring it. This has no impact on my current read on you (leaning town). Thinking back, I'm not being clear here.
Anyway I intentionally make provocative statements. It's what I do. It's a thing I do knowing It's inherently scummy though. So I'm not going to just give you a pass because I do similar things. Especially when I find your reasoning suspect.
You tried to pounce on someone for posting something that wasn't advancing the game... during RVS. The correct response to this is, "******* duh, dude, that's how RVS works."
Yet you still made that completely baseless vote. So the question is do you not understand what RVS is, or are your argument trying to justify your vote disingenous? Well, it cannot be the first one, you have a clear understanding of what RVS is. Therefore, only one explanation remains.
Vote stands.
IIRC you started a while ago as well, I have no idea why you are acting like a newcomer who is taking the name "Random Voting Stage" way too literally.
Again, the entire point of RVS is for something to happen in it that puts an end to it. Because the first serious votes are based on RVS stuff, they are rarely great votes. Don't act like this is your first RVS ever.
Anyway, you are voting me for voting Rhand over #25, and your secondary scumspect is Grape who had a "scum ping" from that post and defended my vote-post as "solid".
What makes you so sure there was nothing to see in that post?
I will NOT take "because it happened in RVS" for an answer. It's a cop-out.
If Grape and me are scum for attacking #25, why aren't you treating Rhand as conftown? Why did you give your bronze medals to "Everyone else" rather than "Everyone except Rhand"?
You don't make sense.
What the ****Let's agree to disagree on whether "provocative statements" are "inherently scummy" and on whether our playstyles are that similar.———
To reiterate, Highroller doesn't make sense. He is grasping at straws with his vote, and not taking the logical conclusion that if the push on Rhand at the end of RVS was scummy then Rhand himself must be town.
The more Rhand makes OK posts* the more I think HR TMI'd and attacked a push he knew was bad because he knew Rhand was town.
*(Though I'd like to see more reads and less theorycrafting from him)
Feel free to prove me wrong I would say
It’s just a mindset thing. Of course you will find an exception here and there, but I am convinced that mafia will automatically make connections that yield results in the future.
I wrote a long explanation on that a few years ago when Proph asked me about it.
As far as looking for statistical evidence goes, I am way too lazy for that.
Ehh you’ll always get those kind of reads from me, combined with gut (and my gut doesn’t work on most players here). You have played with me before, right?
Although calling it theorycrafting... In my brain it’s looking for mafia and town mindset. With reasons why certain plays come from one alignment more often than the other. And a layer of player meta on top of that.
What's your opinion on GJ
Pretty sure he is just mafia here, and I'm never wrong on GJ
I felt a shift from these posts. I really did. Like, some sort of tonal shift. Some energy vibe. I was OK with the first but not the second. Even with the first I was "ehh" on (with regards to it coming from town!Highroller) because I don't like the shade at the end (implying GJ is TMI'ing). But the second takes it to another level and presumes as if the answer is on a silver platter and all we must do is listen to him. Like, it's very presumptuous and way too quick to solve. And I think the thing is, you could have this hypothesis, of course, but how Highroller is using it to actively put down GJ *without* supplementing this suspicion of GJ with additional evidence, is strange. He is consciously shading GJ but not taking it anywhere. Is he suspicious of GJ from these posts? IMO GJ's questions didn't warrant this level of shade from Highroller. This raises my eyebrow
I feel like that interaction was TvS specifically. Could be scum!GJ trying to empty post and deflect
Why does the bronze feel awkward? This bronze/silver/gold post was one of the first posts on page 2 (#68). It's not unfeasible that Highroller would have everyone else in the "maybes" but have a specific top two that he would want to lynch, so GJ was also shading somewhat. Possible scum!GJ doing that and town!HR slapping silly back.
But it could also be town!GJ making a genuine observation/question (even if he may already know the answer, or have an answer, he just wants to hear HR's), and HR not liking being pushed on something he may not have fully considered or realized.
I'm not sure which world I believe in more as of this moment but after I make all my responses I might have more of a Blue's Clue
Woodstock would like to comment that for having a macho man as your avatar this post was surprisingly weak.
I would (confidently) say that post from ZDS was NAI. It's not a "scum mindset" but it really doesn't have to be (or not be) to absolve someone of suspicion. Wisp maybe just had a surreal flatulence (brain fart) and typed the wrong name, either way it wasn't that much credit given to whoever made the observation that Wisp wasn't playing like either of his games. It's preemptive to loosen up on someone because they don't cap on an opportunity to steal a penny's worth of credit. NAI for ZDS but I'm not sure how I feel about you from this. Doghouse on fire I say it's a bad look but this is my $0.02, pearls of wisdom. Old dog and new tricks and all
@Whispy: I currently have Johnny as leaning town. You have my attention since you have the opposite opinion.
@Pokechu: In the TvS interaction you feel happened between Highroller and Johnny, which one is town and which one is scum? #141 is directed against HR, while #142 leans more towards GJ being scum.
You probably used that laughing Snoopy because you were waiting for an opportunity to use it, but it makes me want to lynch you.
Everything else we’re getting is just hedging.
Do you have a real opinion on anyone? Even a townread?
Why do you say this? And to clarify: do you mean unaligned as not wolf/wolf? Also, since this was post #45, and there's been two new pages of content, do you still have this viewpoint? Do you think their townreads of each other (ZDS softclears GJ in post #78, GJ townreads ZDS in his interactions with you and also his readslist post #99) support them being unaligned?
I am more convinced by your argument over GJ's (wrt Grape/ZDS, which would be town or scum) and thought GJ's was strange. But not necessarily wrong or scummy. I do think GJ's townread of ZDS could be pocketing though (even though he said he doesn't pocket). Also think it's strange that ZDS came into the game hard hitting and believes he shifted us out of RVS but in #78 he quickly softclears three different players. Including himself, that's 4 of the 7 players. How do you make strides to solve the game when you can only suspect three players? Pings me. This is why I feel like there's pocketing on at least one side here.
I haven't finished my posts yet, if that was all you were getting from me trust me I'd be disappointed too.
Meant to include this in my last post (still not finished posting all my thoughts obv)
Have you played with ZDS before? I feel like on D1 scum is not going to think that any push on any player would get much of a following. But I did like your analysis here..... $0.02. Let me ponder on this and see if I can make heads or tails, make an observation. This just pinged me. I *want* to say this is shading (because it seems so presumptuous) but I *know* it (probably) isn't. This pinged me for some reason and I'm not sure why
What conclusion did he make here? Correct me if I'm wrong but this is ZDS' only post commenting on Wisp's claim. He pointed out the obvious (flavor-claiming makes you a NK target, something I said on the first page #21). Also slightly shaded with his last comment. Is the conclusion the Rhand/Wisp scum team? I guess but like others in the game I wouldn't call that solid (although I am late on that). Wouldn't call it a conclusion either tbh.
I do like your #122 though. How do you feel about it now, seeing that ZDS has given Wisp a soft-clear? Does it make this earlier conclusion performative (similar to his #78)?
And aside from the confusion at the roles, do you have any posts from HR that you liked? Or does your townread on him only hinge on how he is confused?
This is a very early post but it caught my attention since I didn't quite "get' it. How did HR "prove" you wrong here? Between your original post entering the thread, and this one, HR hadn't made a post in the thread. And how did it make him more townie? Just want to see your thought process here because I don't get it (the last part). I can def see how it dilutes the info/chatter ratio and I see why someone would take a problem with any kind of empty posting but as is, the way you framed it (he proved you wrong and made himself more townie) makes it sound more malicious than it might be IMO