I was also going to ask Killjoy to vote two random players now but I now realize that'd probably be a bad idea. Don't think he's scum anyway, though I should reread.
If I did, it would likely be HR and Boom. They are the two most likely Mafia atm
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hey Bur, remember how you brought up your "only one mafia targeted me" theory? Can you tell me when was the first time you brought it up, as in what the date was, and who the chat was with? I have a theory.
Sloth, don't forget to point out where you had bessie in your PoE, where you were pushing her more than others were, and what led to you putting her in your townleans in that one readslist I quoted. Whenever you get around to it.
You keep making weird as ***** statements toDay - like, is it just cause your riding the high of a scum death and you're feeling manic?
I ask this because where are you getting the idea I had Bessie as a townread exactly?
I was pressing her more than most others yesterDay, and she was on my POE when I discussed her - what's up Vaimes?
Actually **** it: Tubba's a Witter, he witted me N2. I didn't reply due to a combination of not sure what to say/what the benefit would be, and because I was too busy to IRL.
I don't really think this means much re: his alignment? We are working under the assumption that at least one of the 5 Witters is scum, so I guess we could talk about who we know has the wit right now (CC is dead town, there's Tubba, who else claimed to have it?) at some point. I don't think that point is now though, because it's not like we don't have suspects independent of setup.
I think the game kind of looks a bit like:
Town
Slothful
Tammy
Cantripmancer (?)
Townish
BoomFrog
Bessie
Killjoy
Null...? Or something
Anaklusmos
Cuthalion
Highroller
Scummish
Vaimes (?)
Tubba Fett
Bur
Azrael
3rder: Wisp
Aside from the grouping, this list is not in an order that should be considered relevant.
Please, point me to your in-thread read of bessie as being in your PoE.
(If I missed it, I apologize, I'm using the MTGS search feature.)
Huh. Cards on the table, I completely forgot about this D3 post. I only vaguely remember most of everything pre-D4 honestly.
I'm actually doing the exact same thing you're doing, scrolling through my ISO to find the posts that back up my vague memories. I had her as townish here due to the unrepentant push on tammy which I now know that certainly took some balls right off the gate.
Going by this post:
-Is Anak just over the argument to HR to keep the 3rder alive?
-Did you see that whole back-n-forth about Cuth being likely town due to mechanics? If you disagree, I want to hear why.
-Did you talk about Az before? I admit, I often skim your posts cause...well, they're long and rambly. If not, why is he scum? If so, can you point me to the posts?
It was more of a situation where I felt more comfortable with other reads and her posts were tedious and repetitive, so I was in a hurry to just slot her somewhere so as to not have to read her.
Kind of weird that the player I'm having the most productive exchanges with so far is the claimed 3rder.
@wisp Bessie/Bur unlikely to be w/w - thoughts?
So yay for me, I guess?
Yes, I know. I know I'm analyzing my own posts right now to figure out the meaning behind them.
You're just gonna have to accept that, it's been a long game and I've forgotten about nearly everything.
Sloth, don't forget to point out where you had bessie in your PoE, where you were pushing her more than others were, and what led to you putting her in your townleans in that one readslist I quoted. Whenever you get around to it.
[quote from="Killjoy »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/819650-realm-of-the-elderlings-mafia-day-5-bloodier-than?comment=4203"]Can you show your work? Your current team is Sloth/HR/Boom.
The vit stealing still confuses me, though. I don't know what's happening here in scum!HR worlds.
Night 1, Highroller faked it to discredit Wisp. But there just so happens to be a town vit sniper (Sloth) who just so happened to withhold his action.
Night 2, Sloth claimed the kill on GJ, because he had 1 vit. KJ was targeted by someone else, but a second vit stealer isn't possible if Highroller is scum and lying. Either KJ is lying, or Sloth is lying. But then how did GJ die?
Night 3, BoomFrog and Highroller were both targeted. Sloth claims BoomFrog. Highroller is lying?
???
This doesn't make any sense to me and I know I'm missing something.
This game has gotten annoying and reading the day hasnt helped though I shouldnt have lashed out at Wisp.
I'm also very short on time as mentioned (gotta go right about now actually).
I'll step back and start from scratch when I return.
Right now, I kind of feel that if the yeet is not Wisp, then somewhere in {cuth/bessie/anak} seems like a good place to focus on?
I will dive into those three when I'm back.
That makes no sense. That same event gave us extra vit/skill. If it IS a scum ability somehow, they would have never used it.
Watcher/Tracker Combo is one of the most common roles you see in games.
The watcher (bessie) is theoretically the scummier of the two because it has more of a PR hunting vibe.
(Also because it hasn't flipped town.)
?
You mean the Etta thing? I figured Tammy might need my flavor - she didn't have it, but if asked about it I could provide it.
I wiki'd the name, just thought it'd be cool to be prostitute.
Sloth, I checked the last half of your ISO (15 pages) and these are the ONLY mentions of you "suspecting" bessie in that time. Unless you've been calling her bes and my control + F search failed me.
You're correct in that these are the two posts where I out-and-out say I find her sus. I did think I had more than those when I saw her flip - was kind of a "hah!" moment for a sec there.
However, beyond these posts, I did press her on her comments towards me and KJ and her weird unearned fixation on Cuth (who I suspected too but even with that I didn't see what she was driving at.)
D4 was always about Anak for me (speaking of, wtf Az/Anak???) and everyone else an afterthought, but I do think that reading my posts and seeing how I started the Day all over the place and then slowly arrived to focus my pressure on certain players shows that I was circling around her as well - and Cuth, whom I didn't believe was scum with her, so that was self-resolved.
And Bur, who I think has to be clear (no one disagrees here right?)
And HR and you.
I didn't call any of you sus out and out then too, but reading my posts you understand that that's where my mind's at. I won't deny that I could have used clearer language, however.
The vit stealing still confuses me, though. I don't know what's happening here in scum!HR worlds.
Night 1, Highroller faked it to discredit Wisp. But there just so happens to be a town vit sniper (Sloth) who just so happened to withhold his action.
Night 2, Sloth claimed the kill on GJ, because he had 1 vit. KJ was targeted by someone else, but a second vit stealer isn't possible if Highroller is scum and lying. Either KJ is lying, or Sloth is lying. But then how did GJ die?
Night 3, BoomFrog and Highroller were both targeted. Sloth claims BoomFrog. Highroller is lying?
???
This doesn't make any sense to me and I know I'm missing something.
KJ claiming at the 11th hour d4 was sort of annoying because it wrecked the neat clean picture I was building, but at least it does confirm two different sets of vit thiefs.
Ftr, I dind't shoot N1 cause I only had one shot and no one I thought needed to be hit. Then I got an extra shot.
The vit stealing still confuses me, though. I don't know what's happening here in scum!HR worlds.
Night 1, Highroller faked it to discredit Wisp. But there just so happens to be a town vit sniper (Sloth) who just so happened to withhold his action.
Night 2, Sloth claimed the kill on GJ, because he had 1 vit. KJ was targeted by someone else, but a second vit stealer isn't possible if Highroller is scum and lying. Either KJ is lying, or Sloth is lying. But then how did GJ die?
Night 3, BoomFrog and Highroller were both targeted. Sloth claims BoomFrog. Highroller is lying?
???
This doesn't make any sense to me and I know I'm missing something.
KJ claiming at the 11th hour d4 was sort of annoying because it wrecked the neat clean picture I was building, but at least it does confirm two different sets of vit thiefs.
Ftr, I dind't shoot N1 cause I only had one shot and no one I thought needed to be hit. Then I got an extra shot.
How did you get an extra shot? Did you say before?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Maybe GJ isn't a wolf, and it's just highroller, since that post howlssss. Keeping my vote, I didn't shade anyone also
I take 1 vit from people I don't need to target and 3 from people I do, it still requires in worlds of 7 starting vit, 3 days phases to kill someone by myself. Actually 3 day phases to set up and a night phase to off them
Do you target people during the Day and during the Night and take 1/3 vitality each time?
I can only give a charm once a day, it takes 1 vitality for me to use
At night I can remove the charm from everyone that has one (by again using 1 Vit), taking 1 Vit from someone that's not my target, and 3 Vit for a person that is my target, and I heal Vit for that amount (because my role would be useless otherwise)
Anyone that has a charm, every day, I know when they send a private message to someone for the first time
Gonna be really bummed if Az tried to come back and rolled wolf for a third game in a row and that's why he hasn't posted
Whisper should claim his wincon on threat of being the default exile, on the presumption that he's actually just a serial killer
my wincon is kill 3 of 5 people, via being on their train and/or my ability, my ability does very little too people who aren't my target, so u don't have to worry me killing literally anyone, and I don't kill, I just take vitality
I am not a serial killer, I would certainly not be able to achieve my win-con by claiming
Anyone know where HR claimed though? I can't find it.
I'll just claim again.
I'm Verity, the King-in-Waiting. I have 4 vitality. My ability is I turn into a dragon. When I'm a dragon, I become really sleepy and can only post once every 24 hours and my vitality becomes 1. Once per phase during my slumber, I can create a skill channel with a player that lasts 2 phases. I can have multiple versions of these chats up. As long as I'm asleep, any of the people I'm in chat link with cannot have their abilities blocked, redirected, or prevented.
My ability blows, which is why I've never used it.
I thought I just caught Sloth slipping, but apparently not, thanks to Vaimes
Anyways, I guess it's time for me to spill the beans:
I'm Nettle, Town Skill Master.
The ability that I teased yesterday is that I turn any Skill chat that targets me (but not other way round) into a regular neighborhood.
I was targeted yesterday by Tammy (day start), Wisp (after I targeted him with Skill), Vaimes (after I mentioned that my role can be mod-confirmed), Bessie (soon after Vaimes) and Boom (~48h before day end)
I also targeted Cantrip yesterday with my Skill, hoping that he'd be more active that way, but that didn't seem to work.
Anyways, yes, I can confirm what Vaimes said about claiming vig.
Bessie didn't talk that much, only mentioned that they scum read Az/Anak, suspect Vaimes and think Cuth is neutral. They claimed that they opened the chat since they were curious.
Boom didn't say why they targeted me, only that they guessed what my ability does. They said they were saving their skill for coordinating the double yeet with possibly Az. And asked me for my "real reads" after I said in the thread I want Az dead towards the end of Day.
The chat with Wisp boils down to "wait, I thought you were wolf" and then us talking about reads. I can write some summary of you want, but I'm not currently spending much time on Wisp since I'm relatively sure he's neutral.
Vaimes spent some time on asking me to explain to him why I'm town, talking to me about his reads. Now that I actually reread the chat, he mentioned early on that Cuth skilled him (and later said that vig skilled him), so that checks out.
Tammy: I actually skilled Tammy N2 and claimed my role to them back then. She said that she targeted me since we got free chats D3. We talked a lot about reads, mainly revolving around Az/Anak. Then bit setup speculation, talked about the mass claim idea. Tammy actually thought at one point that Az TMI'd my role. Tammy then revealed to me some secrets about town protective/doctor(?) and then asked me about my read on Bessie.
I mentioned this to Tammy towards the end of Day, but I think there's 0-1 scum in the people who targeted me yesterday with Skill.
Me claiming that my role becomes mod-confirmed to those who target me with skill seems pretty tempting offer, but I don't think more than one scum would use their skill to check what my ability is, since they can obviously just share it with their mafia buddies.
So, [Tammy, Wisp, Vaimes, Bessie and Boom], out of which I should probably eye Bessie and Boom, maybe Vaimes.
Obviously ignore this if you have some good, concrete evidence that mafia has no means of communication to each other during the day. I just feel that most of the time these days mafia either has unlimited daychat or daychat enabler.
In the meantime, I'm Etta, Town Consort.
My ability is Queen's Protection. At Night, I can choose a player and spend 1 vit to protect them. If they get hit, they survive, and I lose an additional 1 vit. As a result, I have what I think is a fair amount of vit, though obviously not as much as before.
Thus far, none of my targets have been hit...yay.
I'm King Shrewd, Town Tyrant. I'm a pragmatic ruler, father of Chivalry, Verity, and Regal and unafraid of murder politics. I'm perfectly willing to doom myself so long as I bring my family's enemies down with me.
This translates to my ability Eye For Eye, I can spend 1 vit on me to take 1 vit away from others.
N1 I targeted no one.
N2 I killed GJ (ok, in fairness, I had no ******* clue he'd die) - this I claimed to Tammy, along with everything else, and you can see her one-sided conversation with me on her posts yesterDay which should have been another ******* clue, tammy.
N3 I targeted Boom for reasons stated. Kinda forgot he had that extra vit so I almost jumped on him when I saw he was alive. Wisp calling on cuth reminded me.
And that's it, now you know. Was it ******* worth it?
I'm back.
Ok, stepping away helped. I'm no longer annoyed at everything and I'm ready to try again.
I apologize if yesterday I was biting people's heads off.
I skimmed what I missed and I'm gonna answer to a few things that popped up to me.
In the meantime, I'm Etta, Town Consort.
My ability is Queen's Protection. At Night, I can choose a player and spend 1 vit to protect them. If they get hit, they survive, and I lose an additional 1 vit. As a result, I have what I think is a fair amount of vit, though obviously not as much as before.
Thus far, none of my targets have been hit...yay.
@tammy will confirm when she's available, she already knows the details of my ability, as well as my targets.
Something else I should bring up: One of the players taking vit at Night is town. I will not be explaining further at this time.
This is not what you claimed to me. I just double checked the skill, and you implied that you were a vit thief and said that you use one vitality to take one vitality. You said you didn't target HR night one, but that you were responsible for GJ night two. (And, you said yes that was me which I took to mean you took vitality from Boomfang. When I asked you why GJ instead of one of the top wagons, you talked about your suspicion on Johnny and that you didn't mean to kill him because you didn't expect him to die but you wanted to see how he reacted to losing vitality. In fact, in number 9, you literally asked me if I had an opinion on who you should shoot to which I replied that my understanding of the game was too *****ty to have an opinion on this. You said you have one more shot.
I don't know why you're claiming something completely different than what you claimed to me AND I don't know why you're claiming protection knowing that I know who the doctor is. Is there a reason you're not mentioning the targets you took?
Not only do I have a huge problem with you claiming something completely different than you claimed to me, but I'm hard counter claiming this role.
My name is Molly, and I'm the town Chandler. I'm trying to keep my family's shop alive. My ability is Mother's Pride and each night I can spend a certain amount of vitality to protect someone. They lose no vitality if they are attacked.
I claimed to Bur after wisp suggested I should claim because he's right I've been terrible this game. I do always pay attention to the night kill because I use the nightkill to gauge my understanding of the game, but I don't usually focus on it as much as I do this game. KJ - I asked you who you thought the nightkill would be because I wanted help with who I should target last night; KJ gave me a list. Also KJ when I asked you if Boom's role was compatible with a doctor, I meant with another player being a doctor not if he was basically the doctor. I also asked Bur yesterday, but they just said they hoped I wasn't the nightkill (which got me a little paranoid because I thought it meant that I was actually dying, which is why I started today saying that I thought Bur was town due to me being alive. Although if they thought Cantrip was vig, that would be more important than me, but I still think that Bur is likely town.) Oh and my reaction to the boomfang is me trying to work out how his role fit with mine, which I considered it might. I'd be the early game protection until my vitality ran out and by that time maybe he has enough vitality to pick up end game protection. This was also why I was trying to make sense of protective claims yesterday, because I am one. I did not leave any crumbs, but I've got doctor tells all over me.
When I got my role, I figured I'd see if I got a town read on Iso and if I thought Iso was town, I'd protect him until my vitality ran out. But then I got really concerned about the way he tunneled on crop circles day one and how it looked like he didn't read them after they're big wall of reads that I didn't think looked scummy. Not that it made him scum to be wrong or that he had to town read him, just that it didn't look like he was reading him. My town read just took a hit from it. Anyway I spent the night trying to figure out a town read that I trusted and found none, settled between Iso and Vaimes for protection thinking that if they were town they'd be more likely to die. Literally thought about protecting Rhand but decided he was more likely to be scum and wouldn't be the nightkill even if he were town. And I was wrong.
Doesn't matter though because I ****ed up the time zones. I asked Grapefruit for when deadline was and he converted it for me, but I don't live in EST anymore and forgot to convert to my actual time zone, so I missed deadline by a half an hour.
Night two I protected Sloth because I suck. Silver was my strongest town read at the time and should have been my no brainer protect especially with an investigative role. But I did not consider that silver would be a high priority kill, and I should have. I did consider Johnny because if I were scum that's who I'd kill. Johnny was putting in the most effort to solve and move the game forward out of anyone here, except wisp, and if I were scum that'd be my target. I only didn't protect him because he was just an even day double voter, so he was basically a vanilla townie day three, and I thought scum would go for a role that would affect them more. And I thought that the way Sloth was so convinced at the end of day meant that he had something on Azrael and that he was an investigative of some sort, so I protected there. (Oh, I double checked with grapefruit that my night two protection was one night only and did not affect Cuth's attack there. I knew it didn't, but I figured I'd double check so that I could verify I wasn't the cause of that.)
Last night I protected Vaimes. I actually considered Cantrip, but much like night one I thought well Cantrip really isn't posting much so why would they kill him? I looked over the list that KJ gave me and ultimately went for Vaimes. I thought if town he'd be a likely kill for the same reason that I thought Johnny would be a likely kill - not that he's doing as much solving as Johnny was but he's a strong presence when he's here.
So yes, I'm a sucky ass doctor and I'm doing terribly. I keep considering the actual nightkill and then discounting it which just says my understanding of the game state is actual ass.
He’s the last person with original wit. He witted me day two, didn’t want me to tell wisp.
I’m good holding onto people’s claims but not in massclaim when there’s literally no other reason to not claim it than you just don’t want wisp to charm you.
Oh, and it looks like we’re mass claiming?
Ok, I’m Brashen Trell, town first mate, I can spend 2 Vit to learn who visits a player at night. I have no useful results to share.
I’m Thymara, Town Dragon Keeper. My flavor is that I’m ugly but my father loves me anyways, and I help other ugly dragons sneak out of the city.
Started off Skill-less, could be used on me but I couldn’t use it (with the exception of Day 3, I used the free Skill to talk to Bur). And with the free vit on Day 3 I was able to pay to “transform” into an Elderling, which now allows me to use the Skill. I also started passively generating vitality. I haven’t spent any of it.
I’m Nighteyes Town Wit Companion. I can spend 2 vitality to open a second wit pairing, and can transfer the messages I receive to anyone I’m witted with in addition to my own message. I targeted Johnny N1 and asked who he thought I should link. He wasn’t sure, suggested Iso or Tammy. After I threw my hands up when he was just going to shrug vote me, I didn’t really care anymore but when I noticed I was still alive, I picked Sloth because he wanted Az more than me and no offence to Tammy or Anak, but I’m pretty sure I think Tammy is town and Iso wasn’t towny to me and Anak is tainted by that still.
Vaimes is not likely to be scum, I would be dead if he was and there’s no reason to worry about my legacy if he’s scum.
Given how my ability is worded I would most certainly die if I used it.
I'm a vitality battery, so with my Wit I establish a permanent connection with someone, which was Az. Each night I lose a vitality and they gain a vitality while we are Witted. I can't break the connection and it lasts forever.
Trade off was I started with a bunch of vitality. Which is now all but gone.
And I'm unable to use The Skill. Hence, VT.
And given Wisp is probably gonna hit me again tonight, will be surprised to make it to tomorrow at this point
Dead Roles
It is an odd language, yours. You speak of passing time as in the mountains we speak of passing wind. As if it were a thing to be rid of.
You are Kettricken, Sacrifice of the Mountain Kingdom. Sacrifice is a translation of the local word for royalty and you take the meaning to heart. You care deeply about your subjects, always striving to do what is right for your people and hating the opulence that the nobles of the Seven Kingdom's expect. You formed a close bond with the wolf Nighteyes in your travels after your betrothal to King-in-Waiting Verity.
You start with 3 Vitality.
The Wit: 1-Shot Anytime Action - You bond with another player and are able to each send one 30-word message per phase to each other.
Glorious Queen: Night Action - You may spend 4V to reveal your alignment to one of your Wit partner(s).
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.
Kennit, you are the storm.
You are the ambitious pirate Kennit. You dream of becoming the King of all Pirates and your fiercely loyal crew is fueled by your ambition. With your consort Etta and first mate Sorcor, your life becomes enmeshed with the lives of the Vestrit family.
You start with 3 Vitality.
Maroon: Night Action - You may spend 2V to make target player unable to use any abilities that resolve normally and unable to be targeted by any abilities that resolve normally for that night.
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.
True courage is about facing life without flinching. I don't mean the times when the right path is hard, but glorious at the end. I'm talking about enduring the boredom, the messiness, and the inconvenience of doing what is right.
You are the wife of Prince Chivalry. Despite the humiliation of his bastard child Fitzchivalry, you stayed true to your husband and strove to provide an education for Fitz. You are a gracious and kind lady of court if quite eccentric.
You start with 2 Vitality.
Graceful Queen: Night Action - You target a player. If they did not take an action that night, they gain 1V.
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.
The Fool - Town Fool
Death is always less painful and easier than life! You speak true. And yet we do not, day to day, choose death. Because ultimately, death is not the opposite of life, but the opposite of choice. Death is what you get when there are no choices left to make.
You are an enigma and a mystery. As the fool in King Shrewd's court, you have no name and are just known by your title. You are pale as snow and speak in riddles. While King Shrewd values you highly, his sons are deeply suspicious of your influence. Your one fast friend is another outcast at Buckkeep, the bastard child Fitz.
You start with 1 Vitality.
White Prophet: Passive - On even-numbered Days, you have a second vote. This vote cannot be used to vote the same player twice. This ability is not active if there are only 3 players alive.
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.
Fitzchivalry - Town Royal Bastard
No. No wolf wastes time on vengeance, and that is what this is. Vengeance, pure and simple. When people look most vicious, what you are seeing is not their animal side. It is the savagery that only humans can muster. When you see me loyal to my family, then you see the wolf.
You are Fitz, the bastard son of King-in-Waiting Chivalry. Your Grandfather, King Shrewd, brought you to Buckkeep and made sure your education was provided for, putting you under the care of Burrich, his stable master (and Chivalry's man), and Chade, his bastard half-brother and Royal Assassin. As a young man, you formed a close bond with the wolf Nighteyes and the King's Fool.
You start with 4 Vitality.
The Wit: 1-Shot Anytime Action - You bond with another player and are able to each send one 30-word message per phase to each other.
Untamed Skill: Passive - When you spend Vitality to create a Skill chat, the number of phases of the chat is 1 + the Vitality spent. (You still must spend at least 1V to open a chat)
Hard to Kill: Passive - The first time you would lose more than 3V, you instead lose 2V.
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.
Diplomacy is the velvet glove that cloaks the fist of power.
You are a wealthy trader in Bingtown. Married to Alise, you are generous with your money, allowing her to pursue her love of dragons. You have a narcissistic and jealous streak, but are highly respected in Bingtown society.
You start with 3 Vitality.
Mutually Beneficial: Night Action - You may spend 2V to learn who another target player visits that night. That player gains 1V.
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hey so here's another thing. I just iso'd HR and heavily believe he's Mafia.
He doesn't appear very interested in having town reads at all. His scum reads are either on Wisp or on Anak/Az and I think there's was a bit on Rhand earlier. Except for the Az read, his scum reads don't have a whole lot of progression, In general his reads don't have any evolution.
His singular focus on Wisp only gets broken when he's voting Az. He's not pushing in the right places when he does push, I just don't think he's playing the town game.
I recall hearing that there's meta about him tunneling, but that shouldn't prevent him from reexamination of his reads, ever? There's none of those revolution moments that comes from realizing something during investigation of reads.
Also he never answered about his top 3 town reads for me.
I don't expect him to be a dazzler. I expect him to have an attempt to solve the game, or at least have an iota of firmness on any of his reads. Like, I obviously have a problem with reactive styles because on other sites, you'd be strung up without a 2nd thought. I could get over those biases of mine if he was reactive, but showing conviction or at least giving me a feel like he was trying to figure people out. I get neither of those things from him. He lacks any sort of empathy to understand why he is being wolf read. I at least understand I get wolf read because I get under people's skin (no one will admit that, but that's what mafia has been here for a long time)
Like, since you seem to have such a strong conviction of his town style, is his wolf play such a night/day effort? I know Silver answered this, but not well enough and I wasn't going to push someone to self meta themselves too hard for obvious reasons. Because otherwise, it's just another variation of the LHF argument and the problem with that argument is that LHF can also be wolves.
Like I said, it's whatever. I just don't think behaviorally, Silver has been town. The lack of concern from silver for arguably his towniest read being the lead wagon with very little time before deadline is really concerning to me if silver is town. And I know he is capable of concern, stronger sounding posts because that's how he defended himself. Even if that concern was to hard shove az, and ignore the Cuth wagon, I would find infinitely better than his last couple of posts.
not dealing with that today though. I am willing to guess Tubba gets cfd'd, which I am perfectly fine with.
Well what are we waiting for? The popularity contest that is MTGS is pretty well self resolving. Could you at least mention what you liked about me earlier and what has changed? I’d also like for you to elaborate on ONE townie thing Cuth has done. Not some clear because he gained vit from silver. And are you even townreading Silver? It doesn’t seem like it, which kinda makes your whole premise that Cuth is fine broken. Like, I don’t think you’re scum coming after me, just lazy. I feel like everybody pushing me is just being lazy honestly. The only argument I see is that I’m not doing much to move the game. But that’s fine for KJ, Vaimes, Bur, Cuth, Iso (prior to Anak), Tammy, etc. Or that I policy voted CC and didn’t care about her alignment? I didn’t, I wouldn’t, and I’ve explained it as much as I wanted to. The only person to make any case was Az, which boils down to the most disingenuous interpretation of my actions. So that’s a thing I guess. Sloth has wanted me dead for most of the game and never said why, Last just doesn’t care because as long as it’s not them dying why would they? Like if you’re gonna bury me put your ******* big boy pants on and do it, but at least have something you can stand on tomorrow. This whole limp wristed laissez-faire “I’d be fine if we ended up there” is just such a cop out and so easy for scum to pile onto. So drag us there, if you believe it.
Ok so, this feels a bit like a town Tubba post. It's full of righteous indignation. And a kind of "nobody's trying to read me" that feels like it comes from a town place.
Also making a note: if I'm won't about Tubba being town, them I'm also very likely wrong about HR being scum. Tubba at one point calls for Wisp to shoot HR.
...dude your role sucks, especially compared to everything else.
Right, I'm off, and I promise to actually try to hunt next time I post instead of just exploding at everything that moves.
Question for when I return (Aside from what I've already asked): Who's NOT witted?
Wisp
Bessie
Boom
Cuth...?
Bur, I think?
Speaking of witted: I have severe doubts tubba is scum, so talk to me on why you think he is - there's a chance I've got conf bias here.
Come back with an actual PoE and we'll talk about Tubba.
My only read there is "has made no serious effort to lift self out of PoE, despite knowing he perpetually resides there otherwise."
I’d like to calmly and cordially, with the utmost respect and friendliness, invite you to kiss the darkest part of my ass. I’ve made several posts today regarding Anak/Az, have questioned Wisp about their interpretations of Anak/Az and HR/Cuth, and have questioned Cuth regarding his role and his play decisions up to this point. With only Wisp deigning to respond to me, and people seemingly content to just kill whomever, I’m not exactly sure what you’re looking for me to do to “make a serious effort to pull myself out of the POE.” My problems with Cuth, whole is role makes sense to exist in this game, he has done nothing with it, nor showed any urgency to charge it up so he could use it. Coupled with his evasion of my inquiries along those lines and his continued refusal to move the game ANYWHERE, makes it hard to see the Towniness.
Anak doesn’t look good to me, I can’t think of a good reason Az wouldn’t have outed Anak if Anak’s role is what he claimed it to be. Especially considering he made a point to note that Anak would start taking heat once he flipped. My guess is that Anak claimed Vig/Doc/something powerful that was best kept secret.
Wisp is getting increasingly frustrated and I imagine seeing they were still in the game after thinking they would be out with a win is heavily contributing to that. That’s why I’ve tried to engage without being confrontational, to get them thinking about the possibilities of what’s going on. If you assume HR is truthful, that’s fine but it should have no bearing on whether or not you think Cuth is. The roles as claimed and revealed via flip show HR’s ability protecting redirects etc, from townfirmed flip Rhand, so that’s another factor to consider. Also, you can’t simply assume Az is dumb or trolling and clear Anak. There’s more beneath the surface there.
My PoE is Cuth/Anak/???/???, I don’t think Sloth or Vaimes is ***, I feel I would’ve been yeeted D2 otherwise. I’m not sure how to interpret Bur’s role, it naturally feels townie? Tammy still feels obvTown and the uncountered Doc claim is pretty substantial, HR has been too bombastic in their approach to things they don’t like or agree with, where I think scum would be more conciliatory? But their role seems to counter a townfirmed Jailkeeper? Obviously there could be fake scum claims, but I don’t recall anyone claiming to be role blocked? Mechanics aside, I think HR is town. Bessie is a possible fit as scum, they just feel like they’ve been on the fringes of the game after making a big splash coming in hard at Tammy. Boom has been much better than Chad, judging them for their posts, I see someone thinking about solving this game. I think some of the plans they’ve brought forward are silly, but I can see where their thoughts come from at least, even if I don’t agree with them. KJ is starting to show up and I’ve liked that they’re pushing down their own paths. That’s indicative of KJasColumbo that equals Town. So I guess, Cuth/Anak/?Bessie?/?HR?Bur?
Hers another one. Tubba ain't taking none of Vaimes BS and I like it.
Comment:Part of this is these two quotes, but also he suggested Wisp to kill HR, who is scum.
Tubba (6): Az, GJ, Anak, KJ, BoomFrog, Silver
Az (6): Bur, HR, Bessie, Tubba, Wisp, Sloth
BoomFrog (2): Cuth, GJ
Anak (1): Tammy
Not Voting (2): Cantrip, Vaimes
With 16 alive it takes 9 to condemn.
Vote Count Day 2 Final
Tubba (8): Az, GJ, Anak,KJ, Silver, BoomFrog, Wisp, Tammy
Az (5): Bur, HR, Bessie, Tubba, Sloth
BoomFrog (1): Cuth
Silver (1): GJ
Not Voting (2): Cantrip, Vaimes
Comment: If Tubba is town, then I can't think that the whole of the scum team was on Az in both VCs here, but especially the second one. If Boom isn't scum, then 3 of the 4 scum were voting Az there.
Recolored for new info.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I never did do a thorough read/analysis of the later part of D1 and I probably won’t have the time (I did skim), but if someone wants to point me to anything in particular I will read it.
Highroller – I don’t see his focus on Wisp as alignment indicative, and I don’t see much value in analyzing his Wisp-related content, will reconsider depending on Wisp’s flip. And there isn’t much non-Wisp content to analyze. Highroller is not currently on my elimination list.
Tubba Fett – I haven’t had any strong pings from him either way. Most of his content is reactive but so is mine. I think his questioning has been ok and he seems to have responded to questions whenever he is asked anything. Really, I’m not seeing all the scum reads here. I understand the mechanical reasons eliminating him today, in that since there was no elimination D2 and we lose out on the information from the wagons, but I would rather eliminate a scum read.
Cuthalion – I’ve had several pings from his posts I have pointed out some of them. Mostly stuff like posting reads without giving reasons, when questioned he does reply, but he does not pursue interaction. I did not like his D2 push on BoomFrog because he seemed less interested in eliminating mafia than in eliminating BoomFrog, and was not really that interested in determining BoomFrog’s or anyone else’s alignment. I would vote here.
Bur – I think the early questions were ok. I just searched his posts and there’s not much content besides questioning others and no follow up on responses. Also he didn’t give reasons for his D2 votes, which is something I usually find suspicious. So I would put him on my list of scum leans for his content as a whole, not for any specific pings. I would consider voting here to ensure an elimination but he is not currently one of my strong scum reads.
I will try to come up with a global reads list or at the least a town-scum list within the next day or two.
Here’s my reads without doing a thread reread, I skimmed through D4 content as I wrote this.
Anak – I thought he was scummy yesterday and I ended the day with one of my votes on him. I still find him suspicious for his D4 content and would vote for him today.
BoomFrog – I have never been that good at reading BoomFrog but I haven’t had any major scum pings from him. The only ping I have is the odd comment he made in post #3602 about my push on Azrael. Like I said I wasn’t the only player pushing Azrael so I am suspicious as to why he pointed out why that was a negative for me in particular.
Bur – The thing that I previously found most suspicious about Bur was that he voted without giving reasons. I skilled him because I had a free skill, and he did explain some reads more in chat than he was doing in the thread. I still do not have a strong town lean but I am against voting for him today.
Cuthalion – He has been one of my scum reads since D2. He is voting for me without giving a reason that he can explain which I find suspicious. For more of my thoughts see my D4 posts.
Highroller – I can understand his content and his focus on Wisp.
Killjoy – I think he has produced consistently good content and I like his posting style.
Slothful – Another player that I think has produced consistently good content and I like his posting style.
Tammy – I was suspicious of her early game content for what seemed to me to be not taking strong positions on anything, like everything she posted had a disclaimer. Her playstyle is the type that I often clash with so that may be part of my early suspicion on her. I’m still not seeing why Tammy was obvitown early in the game but I think I was more suspicious of some players that I felt were too quick to defend Tammy without trying to understand what a player that had no prior experience with her found suspicious.
Tubba – I think I will stand by what I said previously, I don’t see the scum reads on Tubba. Maybe it is because his playstyle is more like mine, unlike someone like Tammy who’s playstyle is very different from mine.
Vaimes – I have been suspicious of Vaimes since D2, I often don’t follow his reads. Like, he started D4 voting for Cuth, but says it was just to provoke him to post. There was also this comment in post #3652: “I am trying to townread Cuth with peace in my heart.” Like he is trying to force this read.
Wisp – Self-claimed non-town.
Ending with content through page 76. I’ll pick up on page 77 later.
Bolded are the people who are alive rn. Spaceing by me
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Everyone voting Azreal, I think Azreal coming in a shaking up the thread when I was on the chopping block is extremely townie. Obviously that doesn't apply if you think we are scummates, but if that's the case you should yeet me first (or ask Wisp to kill me and judge Azreal toMarrow with better information).
I know he had the inconsistency about saying Bur was bussing me then saying I am town, but that shows a townie jumbled thought process. He's trying to fit all the puzzle pieces together. Scum!Azreal would already have decided who he is going to push and who he'd try to pocket so would be as inconsistent.
The flipflop on Wisp entirely fits with his plan to keep wisp working for us with the threat of a yeet if he doesn't. This is a townie plan trying to coerce 3rder power under town's control. If you look at Azreal's actions from deeper then a superficial level, it's clear he's trying to make this work for town. (@HR I don't want to hear about your response to this point, I already know your opinion).
I think that's all the points against Azreal, anyone who keeps their vote on him after this post please explain, because he's one of my top townies at this point.
Town:
Silver
Azreal - Already explained.
Tammy - Hasn't actually contributed D2, but I like that she tried to defuse the confusion between GJ and I. I don't think scum Tammy tries to help there.
Cantrip - although it'd be sure nice if he actually came and posted. Sloth - Showing a lot of signs of actually trying to solve and push the game forward
ISO/Anak - I like that he stuck his neck out defending Azreal
Probably town:
GJ - I hard town read him earlier D2 but can't remember why. These phases are crazy long... Viames - Started D2 showing lots of solving energy. Talking about not sharing controversial thoughts is kinda TWTBW or however that acronym goes.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hey Bur, remember how you brought up your "only one mafia targeted me" theory? Can you tell me when was the first time you brought it up, as in what the date was, and who the chat was with? I have a theory.
I see where you are going with this...
I mentioned it to you and Tammy, but quick check shows that Boom opened the chat with me couple hours before that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
I don't expect him to be a dazzler. I expect him to have an attempt to solve the game, or at least have an iota of firmness on any of his reads. Like, I obviously have a problem with reactive styles because on other sites, you'd be strung up without a 2nd thought. I could get over those biases of mine if he was reactive, but showing conviction or at least giving me a feel like he was trying to figure people out. I get neither of those things from him. He lacks any sort of empathy to understand why he is being wolf read. I at least understand I get wolf read because I get under people's skin (no one will admit that, but that's what mafia has been here for a long time)
Like, since you seem to have such a strong conviction of his town style, is his wolf play such a night/day effort? I know Silver answered this, but not well enough and I wasn't going to push someone to self meta themselves too hard for obvious reasons. Because otherwise, it's just another variation of the LHF argument and the problem with that argument is that LHF can also be wolves.
Like I said, it's whatever. I just don't think behaviorally, Silver has been town. The lack of concern from silver for arguably his towniest read being the lead wagon with very little time before deadline is really concerning to me if silver is town. And I know he is capable of concern, stronger sounding posts because that's how he defended himself. Even if that concern was to hard shove az, and ignore the Cuth wagon, I would find infinitely better than his last couple of posts.
not dealing with that today though. I am willing to guess Tubba gets cfd'd, which I am perfectly fine with.
Well what are we waiting for? The popularity contest that is MTGS is pretty well self resolving. Could you at least mention what you liked about me earlier and what has changed? I’d also like for you to elaborate on ONE townie thing Cuth has done. Not some clear because he gained vit from silver. And are you even townreading Silver? It doesn’t seem like it, which kinda makes your whole premise that Cuth is fine broken. Like, I don’t think you’re scum coming after me, just lazy. I feel like everybody pushing me is just being lazy honestly. The only argument I see is that I’m not doing much to move the game. But that’s fine for KJ, Vaimes, Bur, Cuth, Iso (prior to Anak), Tammy, etc. Or that I policy voted CC and didn’t care about her alignment? I didn’t, I wouldn’t, and I’ve explained it as much as I wanted to. The only person to make any case was Az, which boils down to the most disingenuous interpretation of my actions. So that’s a thing I guess. Sloth has wanted me dead for most of the game and never said why, Last just doesn’t care because as long as it’s not them dying why would they? Like if you’re gonna bury me put your ******* big boy pants on and do it, but at least have something you can stand on tomorrow. This whole limp wristed laissez-faire “I’d be fine if we ended up there” is just such a cop out and so easy for scum to pile onto. So drag us there, if you believe it.
Ok so, this feels a bit like a town Tubba post. It's full of righteous indignation. And a kind of "nobody's trying to read me" that feels like it comes from a town place.
Also making a note: if I'm won't about Tubba being town, them I'm also very likely wrong about HR being scum. Tubba at one point calls for Wisp to shoot HR.
...dude your role sucks, especially compared to everything else.
Right, I'm off, and I promise to actually try to hunt next time I post instead of just exploding at everything that moves.
Question for when I return (Aside from what I've already asked): Who's NOT witted?
Wisp
Bessie
Boom
Cuth...?
Bur, I think?
Speaking of witted: I have severe doubts tubba is scum, so talk to me on why you think he is - there's a chance I've got conf bias here.
Come back with an actual PoE and we'll talk about Tubba.
My only read there is "has made no serious effort to lift self out of PoE, despite knowing he perpetually resides there otherwise."
I’d like to calmly and cordially, with the utmost respect and friendliness, invite you to kiss the darkest part of my ass. I’ve made several posts today regarding Anak/Az, have questioned Wisp about their interpretations of Anak/Az and HR/Cuth, and have questioned Cuth regarding his role and his play decisions up to this point. With only Wisp deigning to respond to me, and people seemingly content to just kill whomever, I’m not exactly sure what you’re looking for me to do to “make a serious effort to pull myself out of the POE.” My problems with Cuth, whole is role makes sense to exist in this game, he has done nothing with it, nor showed any urgency to charge it up so he could use it. Coupled with his evasion of my inquiries along those lines and his continued refusal to move the game ANYWHERE, makes it hard to see the Towniness.
Anak doesn’t look good to me, I can’t think of a good reason Az wouldn’t have outed Anak if Anak’s role is what he claimed it to be. Especially considering he made a point to note that Anak would start taking heat once he flipped. My guess is that Anak claimed Vig/Doc/something powerful that was best kept secret.
Wisp is getting increasingly frustrated and I imagine seeing they were still in the game after thinking they would be out with a win is heavily contributing to that. That’s why I’ve tried to engage without being confrontational, to get them thinking about the possibilities of what’s going on. If you assume HR is truthful, that’s fine but it should have no bearing on whether or not you think Cuth is. The roles as claimed and revealed via flip show HR’s ability protecting redirects etc, from townfirmed flip Rhand, so that’s another factor to consider. Also, you can’t simply assume Az is dumb or trolling and clear Anak. There’s more beneath the surface there.
My PoE is Cuth/Anak/???/???, I don’t think Sloth or Vaimes is ***, I feel I would’ve been yeeted D2 otherwise. I’m not sure how to interpret Bur’s role, it naturally feels townie? Tammy still feels obvTown and the uncountered Doc claim is pretty substantial, HR has been too bombastic in their approach to things they don’t like or agree with, where I think scum would be more conciliatory? But their role seems to counter a townfirmed Jailkeeper? Obviously there could be fake scum claims, but I don’t recall anyone claiming to be role blocked? Mechanics aside, I think HR is town. Bessie is a possible fit as scum, they just feel like they’ve been on the fringes of the game after making a big splash coming in hard at Tammy. Boom has been much better than Chad, judging them for their posts, I see someone thinking about solving this game. I think some of the plans they’ve brought forward are silly, but I can see where their thoughts come from at least, even if I don’t agree with them. KJ is starting to show up and I’ve liked that they’re pushing down their own paths. That’s indicative of KJasColumbo that equals Town. So I guess, Cuth/Anak/?Bessie?/?HR?Bur?
Hers another one. Tubba ain't taking none of Vaimes BS and I like it.
Honestly, these are not the same point I made on my own townread of Tubba, but they do seem to compliment each other:
Come back with an actual PoE and we'll talk about Tubba.
My only read there is "has made no serious effort to lift self out of PoE, despite knowing he perpetually resides there otherwise."
It all comes down to the wit chat - I'm basically paraphrasing some of what I told Tammy here as I'm not sure I can copy-paste:
I've already talked about what his first message was on N2.
On D3, Tubba's second message was to say that he found cuth and anak suspicious and was starting to waffle on Az. Remember that these messages are short and you only get one per phase (cept on D3), yet he still sent this message. He was obviously unsure of even that and the point of the message seemed to be more of deferring to me and trying to get my opinion to see if it was a valid line to pursue.
It was genuine, not coached at all, and scum!tubba would probably try to be more swaying or at least not so doubtful. Sort of show his value.
It also matters that this second message was sent despite me flat out not answering to the first and outing him in the thread. Scum!tubba would have likely given up on the wit to me as a wasted effort at that point, not kept trying to engage.
In my mind, it really showed tubba to be feeling alone and unsure on what to do and trying to do SOMETHING to figure out the game and get some help.
Now come N3, I sent my first wit and asked what he thought of the game now in light of Az's flip.
He responded that he felt regret and vindication over Az's flip as town, and that he was locking in on Cuth.
I asked what he meant by vindication early toDay, and he reiterated that he had been waffling and that he should have listened to his gut after all.
Ok so here's the thing - I know from being in spec on his prior scum games, and from personal experience with him on mason chat (you too on this, @wisp), that Tubba is a player that relies on his (scum/mason)mates to figure out what to say and how to act. He's not often at the level of writing an entire post in the chat for approval prior to posting it in the thread, but he'll definitely ask if this is good to say or do, etc.
As I said in D3, there's no indication that Tubba had any sort of guidance, what was clear there was a feeling of isolation and a need for help.
On N3, though, there's no ******* way a scummate would let him use the word "vindication" when referring to a town flip. Maybe he would have done it without letting them know first, but would definitely tell them after, and in that case I would 100% be dead right now. They'd be like "you told him what? We gotta get rid of Sloth, bye."
I'm alive right now. It ain't him.
Honestly, this is all subjective, I'm aware. But Tubba's yet to actually fool me with such behaviors so if this is the first time, kudos for him.
I also like that he came in and did not backtrack on the statements on the wit, and did follow up on Cuth, but didn't just sit on it and kept talking.
Re: Tubba Really? ...I gotta be honest I thought you would be the one that would agree with me the most on this.
You think scum has two OG witters? Also why bus their partners to me and me alone instead of the thread?
Wait, scratch that last sentence, I recognize it's BS now.
I just kind of felt that Tubba was trying to use the wit as a replacement to a sort of support chat, like in prison. Hm.
So yeah, I can see the town!Tubba in his actions - and I like how he bit back on Vaimes, who I'm starting to think pretty much has to be scum? I need to reread him to actually see if it's valid but...god. I don't want to. You can't make me.
By contrast, scum!Tubba might have just given up and stopped trying by this point (which is not the same as rarely posting, if the posts that do happen have conviction to them). See Matter mafia for a really good example.
However, that's just not enough at this point (note that underlined/bolded part of my quote). I feel like today comes down to {Tubba/Anyone else} as far as competing yeets. He needs to come in and start actually contributing and make a stronger effort toDay, otherwise I think we default to him and lose if he's town.
Also Wisp notoriously did not agree with my assessment of Tubba.
I was actually surprised Cuth didn't hit him. I am thinking that he was under the impression that Tubba was the obv yeet today and decided to instead hit someone that might otherwise fall through the cracks? If so, I really don't want to let Tubba slip by 'cause I can hear Cuth raging about it in obs lol.
Tubba also made ~choices~ on D4 that I called out as super pointless in voting Cuth, an action I saw as super pointless. I guess if you squint that might be like "why vote him when he's going to kill him?"
Though that wagon ended up gaining a surprising amount of steam by the end of the Day:
Only change between this VC and the final one was that Boom moved to Anak and hammered.
Also unless the scumteam is exactly {HR/KJ/Vaimes}, there's at least one scum in {Tubba/Boom}.
I'm waiting to hear from Boom more today.
Also, can Bur be scum? I'm not rushing anything by clearing him off of Bessie skilling him right? There's no other way to interpret that that I'm missing?
Hey Bur, remember how you brought up your "only one mafia targeted me" theory? Can you tell me when was the first time you brought it up, as in what the date was, and who the chat was with? I have a theory.
I see where you are going with this...
I mentioned it to you and Tammy, but quick check shows that Boom opened the chat with me couple hours before that.
Is there any other info that you may have forgotten/chosen not to to let us in on in those chats that you want to share now?
We can reasonably assume everything in those chats, scum already know - This confirms they knew Tammy was doc. Might be why Cantrip was shot?
If Bur is town, then your PoE [including me] is all villagers. That is either impressively incorrect or very deliberate, and I'm having a hell of a time trying to find the difference.
Hey Bur, remember how you brought up your "only one mafia targeted me" theory? Can you tell me when was the first time you brought it up, as in what the date was, and who the chat was with? I have a theory.
I see where you are going with this...
I mentioned it to you and Tammy, but quick check shows that Boom opened the chat with me couple hours before that.
Is there any other info that you may have forgotten/chosen not to to let us in on in those chats that you want to share now?
We can reasonably assume everything in those chats, scum already know - This confirms they knew Tammy was doc. Might be why Cantrip was shot?
I mean, I don't remember anything that immediately pops out from the top of my head, but I haven't reread all my 500+ posts in my QTs
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
If Bur is town, then your PoE [including me] is all villagers. That is either impressively incorrect or very deliberate, and I'm having a hell of a time trying to find the difference.
If it wasn't clear, I was expressing skepticism that the scumteam is ever that.
If nothing else, I severely doubt KJ is scum. The only thing that would have made me think so is if he couldn't prove his ability, but even then why lie about that lol.
What do you mean "If Bur is town"? I asked earlier if there was something I was missing regarding his alignment in light of Bessie's return. Do you have anything that causes you to doubt?
Same question about HR since you put him in that "all villagers" POE.
I'm not believing that the mysterious vitality pinger is town as we mass claimed and saw no such thing.
So, there's 4 different world:
-Sloth is town, there's mafia vitality pinger.
-Sloth is town, there's no mafia vitality pinger
-Sloth is mafia, there's (other) mafia vitality pinger
-Sloth if mafia, there's no (other) mafia vitality pinger
I'm pretty sure we live in either world #1 or #4. #2 is makes no sense, as how did Cuth die then? And #3 seems unlikely from game balance purposes.
I need to sleep, but I want at least @Vaimes to weight in here. I hope to hear your thoughts once I wake up.
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
If we're in world 4, it means scum have been claiming a fake ping every single Night. That's a weird public group lie.
We ~could be in world 2 and mafia have been doing the same thing: claiming fake pings. For what reason, I don't know.
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Sloth, I say "if" because nothing is really absolute right now. Personally I believe it, but I've flipped so many times on everyone else that I can't think straight.
And I was referring to your PoE at the end of yesterDay, shading me/Bur/Cuth for Anak's townflip.
I think it's imperative we solve Sloth first, and as soon as possible, to make sure we have a solid read on him before either slotting him as town or voting him out.
Highroller, if you see this, please get a comprehensive Sloth read out as soon as you can, before you try and read everyone else.
@Sloth: while sifting through her ISO, I was noticing her directly shading some folks, and I was noticing a pattern in them: Most were dead town. Tammy got a lot of it, Cuth got a bit, GJ got a bit. Az got a bit. Iso/Anak too. I got I think one instance.
I can’t remember when or why I brought it up, the thread was so quiet that I had to double check that I wasn’t the one who had the date wrong. I believe someone pounced on my half-serious suggestion that we all lurk until the new year, and they mentioned that deadline was approaching. And then I didn’t think about it again until sometime after xmas.
That was me, and I pounced on it because I did not know if you were serious or joking, or if perhaps you were fishing for an extension which I also think would have been a bad idea.
I just don't think that scum!bessie uses a suggestion that we lurk until the new year to further a scumlean on her buddy. This feels like she wants him dead. Like actually dead.
bessie: can you give a couple post numbers where Vaimes is doing that?
Also is the reason you're suspicious of it because you're scum reading cuth or is there something in the way that Vaimes is doing it?
Here’s some D4 posts that I find suspicious, looking at the progression. Vaimes starts out with a vote on Cuth with a caveat that it’s just to provoke him to post.
if Cuth is a wolf, then Boom has to be a wolf with him, he is the only other vanillaish role, that could afford to hold the night KP? correct?
@Vaimes
unless someone is just straight-up lying about their role
ah **** I keep forgetting about that
This vote is more an invitation to defend himself instead of having me do it for him, and to explain his Night actions.
god is Anak mafia? Because like what the ****, this PoE makes no sense to me.
Clearing Tammy and KJ based on behavior. If anyone other than KJ claimed a double vote that had never actually been used, I'd probably steamroll them. Like his claim is actually making my skin crawl, but goddamn it if he isn't one of my strongest townreads.
Clearing Sloth because Tammy is alive, hasn't been blocked, and hasn't been announcing her targets to Sloth.
I guessssss maybe remove Cuth/Boom? Cuth is wine incarnate but I can't bring myself to keep squeezing him for anything, any hint of gamesolving. Boom's had ok posts toDay.
I don't like this, because I can't clear both Bur and Highroller unless there's another neutral out there, or the scumteam is small to compensate for town having WEAK ABILITIES.
I wish I could completely wipe away my memories of this game and start over fresh.
I am trying to townread Cuth with peace in my heart. I think Highroller is fine, just saw how much more cooperative he was in Ghostbusters and got excited that maybe he wasn't town this time.
I’ve posted pings I’ve had from Vaimes since I’ve joined the game on D2, and he was on my short list. Skimming my posts, the early pings were because of what I thought was a forced defense of Tammy. And there were some other pings, you can iso my posts.
This was really recent, she hasn't backed off of Vaimes since D2.
I think a case can be made here for her and Vaimes not being on the same team, especially considering she didn't do anything like that to ANYONE ELSE WHO ISN'T TOWN. She softballed Highroller (which will be hilarious in retrospect when HR flips since its SO DAMN OBVIOUS that they were partners), you (Sloth), Tubba, and me, and she didn't really do much with Bur or Boom. But she specifically sought out Vaimes to die. So, unless the plan was specifically for Vaimes to go Deep Wolf, I don't think Bessie is conscious enough to interact with and pretend she thinks Vaimes might be town as scum but not to do that with literally anyone else on her team.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Also @all right off the bat, I'm advocating to reach majority as soon as it feels like a reasonably good bet, which will 100% be before a 2-week mark.
I understand the idea that we should make use of all the time available to make sure we're hitting scum.
On the other hand I cannot imagine a more boring hell than a 2-*******-week drag-along culminating in reaching a vote we knew we would reach several days ago.
My sweet spot is 5 days, btw. 7 for D1, and even that's like...ehhh.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Weird ambivalence aside, Tammy's probably town - KJ too.
Based on grammar and tone alone, Wisp might be town.
I like Silver too, though not sure if that's based on actual play. I do like how he thinks.
The fact that Rhand has that pirate motif and has yet to tunnel me this game is kind of throwing me off - like, is that seriously tom in disguise?
Joking aside, I legitimately feel thrown and I wonder if it's the motif that's causing it.
Chad is Chad. Just gonna keep prodding and try not to lose my mind.
I give weight to Wisp finding him scummy (how serious are you, @Wisp?)
Crops hanging to that RVS-bs (hah!) and tacking it on me as if I'm the only one that brought it up or found his reaction unearned is not a good look. That could be slighted-townie response tho, so eh.
Cantrip just has that one post lol. It doesn't look any better with the passage of time, but I really want him to come back.
Bur's trending down, said why.
GJ's got my vote.
This is not as clear-cut as 'town >>> scum' but more of a nebulous stream of takes
Everyone else needs to post more so I can keep forming opinions that are likely wrong.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm actually doing the exact same thing you're doing, scrolling through my ISO to find the posts that back up my vague memories. I had her as townish here due to the unrepentant push on tammy which I now know that certainly took some balls right off the gate.
Going by this post:
I also found this,
Yes, I know. I know I'm analyzing my own posts right now to figure out the meaning behind them.
You're just gonna have to accept that, it's been a long game and I've forgotten about nearly everything.
As for the POE,
Night 1, Highroller faked it to discredit Wisp. But there just so happens to be a town vit sniper (Sloth) who just so happened to withhold his action.
Night 2, Sloth claimed the kill on GJ, because he had 1 vit. KJ was targeted by someone else, but a second vit stealer isn't possible if Highroller is scum and lying. Either KJ is lying, or Sloth is lying. But then how did GJ die?
Night 3, BoomFrog and Highroller were both targeted. Sloth claims BoomFrog. Highroller is lying?
???
This doesn't make any sense to me and I know I'm missing something.
However, beyond these posts, I did press her on her comments towards me and KJ and her weird unearned fixation on Cuth (who I suspected too but even with that I didn't see what she was driving at.)
D4 was always about Anak for me (speaking of, wtf Az/Anak???) and everyone else an afterthought, but I do think that reading my posts and seeing how I started the Day all over the place and then slowly arrived to focus my pressure on certain players shows that I was circling around her as well - and Cuth, whom I didn't believe was scum with her, so that was self-resolved.
And Bur, who I think has to be clear (no one disagrees here right?)
And HR and you.
I didn't call any of you sus out and out then too, but reading my posts you understand that that's where my mind's at. I won't deny that I could have used clearer language, however.
Ftr, I dind't shoot N1 cause I only had one shot and no one I thought needed to be hit. Then I got an extra shot.
Getting your stuff @Vaimes
Comment:Part of this is these two quotes, but also he suggested Wisp to kill HR, who is scum.
Comment: If Tubba is town, then I can't think that the whole of the scum team was on Az in both VCs here, but especially the second one. If Boom isn't scum, then 3 of the 4 scum were voting Az there.
Recolored for new info.
Bolded are the people who are alive rn. Spaceing by me
This is a check-in post. Need to reread the thread.
BUT ALSO look at this list, bolded by me.
If he's scum, he mas two of his buddies (bessie, HR) in the yeet pool. Is he superbussing?
If he's town, he has at most one scum in his town.
I feel like his reads have evolved ok up to this point, possibly sincerely... so maybe he's town?
Which would mean I'm wrong about Tubba?
This is a choice.
I see where you are going with this...
I mentioned it to you and Tammy, but quick check shows that Boom opened the chat with me couple hours before that.
That’s disappointing. Still could be a Thing but it’s not as solid as I would like.
Was there anything that could’ve tipped the scumteam off?
By contrast, scum!Tubba might have just given up and stopped trying by this point (which is not the same as rarely posting, if the posts that do happen have conviction to them). See Matter mafia for a really good example.
However, that's just not enough at this point (note that underlined/bolded part of my quote). I feel like today comes down to {Tubba/Anyone else} as far as competing yeets. He needs to come in and start actually contributing and make a stronger effort toDay, otherwise I think we default to him and lose if he's town.
Also Wisp notoriously did not agree with my assessment of Tubba.
I was actually surprised Cuth didn't hit him. I am thinking that he was under the impression that Tubba was the obv yeet today and decided to instead hit someone that might otherwise fall through the cracks? If so, I really don't want to let Tubba slip by 'cause I can hear Cuth raging about it in obs lol.
Could have just lied about his role? Someone definitely is, and GJ died before I could confirm his ability.
Though that wagon ended up gaining a surprising amount of steam by the end of the Day:
Only change between this VC and the final one was that Boom moved to Anak and hammered.
Also unless the scumteam is exactly {HR/KJ/Vaimes}, there's at least one scum in {Tubba/Boom}.
I'm waiting to hear from Boom more today.
Also, can Bur be scum? I'm not rushing anything by clearing him off of Bessie skilling him right? There's no other way to interpret that that I'm missing?
We can reasonably assume everything in those chats, scum already know - This confirms they knew Tammy was doc. Might be why Cantrip was shot?
Off the top of my head, the only person he's pushed is Wisp and Cuth. He has an impressive number of villagers that tried to vote him out Day 2.
N1 no one
N2 GJ
N3 Boom
N4 No one?
Mysterious mafia Vit pinger:
N1 Highroller
N2 KJ
N3 Highroller
N4 Cuth?
Putting this here once again.
Unless the remaining scum team is exactly Sloth/KJ/[Boom or HR], there's something going on...
My gut says it's Sloth/HR/X but KJ doesn't feel mafia at all to me.
But if KJ is not mafia, then there must be mafia Vit pinger which means Sloth is town (and HR/Boom too), which leaves us in weird place.
I mean, I don't remember anything that immediately pops out from the top of my head, but I haven't reread all my 500+ posts in my QTs
If nothing else, I severely doubt KJ is scum. The only thing that would have made me think so is if he couldn't prove his ability, but even then why lie about that lol.
What do you mean "If Bur is town"? I asked earlier if there was something I was missing regarding his alignment in light of Bessie's return. Do you have anything that causes you to doubt?
Same question about HR since you put him in that "all villagers" POE.
So, there's 4 different world:
-Sloth is town, there's mafia vitality pinger.
-Sloth is town, there's no mafia vitality pinger
-Sloth is mafia, there's (other) mafia vitality pinger
-Sloth if mafia, there's no (other) mafia vitality pinger
I'm pretty sure we live in either world #1 or #4. #2 is makes no sense, as how did Cuth die then? And #3 seems unlikely from game balance purposes.
I need to sleep, but I want at least @Vaimes to weight in here. I hope to hear your thoughts once I wake up.
We ~could be in world 2 and mafia have been doing the same thing: claiming fake pings. For what reason, I don't know.
-
Sloth, I say "if" because nothing is really absolute right now. Personally I believe it, but I've flipped so many times on everyone else that I can't think straight.
And I was referring to your PoE at the end of yesterDay, shading me/Bur/Cuth for Anak's townflip.
But I too am exhausted and the people I most want to hear from are not contributing. Boo.
I think it's imperative we solve Sloth first, and as soon as possible, to make sure we have a solid read on him before either slotting him as town or voting him out.
Highroller, if you see this, please get a comprehensive Sloth read out as soon as you can, before you try and read everyone else.
But Vaimes got a not-inconsiderable amount as well.
[1491, 1486, 1705, 1771, 1813, 2461, 3273, 3421, 3823,3960]
Special mention to 2461: I just don't think that scum!bessie uses a suggestion that we lurk until the new year to further a scumlean on her buddy. This feels like she wants him dead. Like actually dead.
Another special mention to 3960: This was really recent, she hasn't backed off of Vaimes since D2.
I think a case can be made here for her and Vaimes not being on the same team, especially considering she didn't do anything like that to ANYONE ELSE WHO ISN'T TOWN. She softballed Highroller (which will be hilarious in retrospect when HR flips since its SO DAMN OBVIOUS that they were partners), you (Sloth), Tubba, and me, and she didn't really do much with Bur or Boom. But she specifically sought out Vaimes to die. So, unless the plan was specifically for Vaimes to go Deep Wolf, I don't think Bessie is conscious enough to interact with and pretend she thinks Vaimes might be town as scum but not to do that with literally anyone else on her team.