I'm wondering if there's friction between Bur's role and bessie's. Would you classify a neighborizer such as him as psudoinvestigative due to the ability in those private conversations to get insight not possible in the public thread, or is a communication ability not thought of like that in balancing?
@Tammy: I think boom's ability is expensive enough to be in a game with you and have you both be town, sure.
Dude, why even ask this, there's no definite right answer without Grape confirming it.
But no, Neighborhoods don't give any info nor do they prevent you from lying, they aren't masons. Neighborhoods is just another chat to bluff your way in as scum, same as the thread.
I literally said why I wanted to know: To see if I should include Bur in the group of investigatives already claimed/outed. It wasn't so much "What would Grape do" but "how should I look at this when trying to deduce what roles are in the game?"
I'm just trying to learn man. Teach me.
TEACH ME YOUR WAYS, OH TYRANT KING OF MAFIA
Right, I was cranky at you too, it seems. Sorry.
But yes, my answer to your question, if not clear, is that neighbors are not investigative roles.
Oh, also, full disclosure, I believe your role the least. Your role is a strictly worse role than Cuth is claiming, and has the most potential to have additional abilities on top of your "1 to 1". Although Bur is up there too.
How likely do you think it is that Bur has more abilities, Sloth? What's the powerlevel of Bur's passive neighcorizer?
Re: Awakening ability: Ok, so why has no one claimed it? We've massclaimed, and no one besides me has confessed to hiding anything about their ability.
Also Cuth did not skill me.
In reverse order: Thank you for answering.
I'm just assuming none of us were responsible for the Awakening, it was a game mechanic. A townie might have the ability and hide it due to <redacted>, but you have to admit it just doesn't fit as a scum ability.
Bur's ability to have multiple private chats with a limitless number of players honestly seems pretty powerful as is. It's not impossible that he could have more abilities, but there's nothing that's making me think he has to.
It's been brought up before, but neighborizers can easily be mafia - so the ability itself says nothing for Bur's alignment (biggest example that comes to mind is seinen with w!Purity and t!Dragoon).
on the abilities.
Like I said, I don't disbelieve that both Cuth and I could exist in the same alignment as they seem to balance each other, but yeah, it's def possiblye that there's scum between the two of us and that that scum is totally Cuth.
Seriously though, you have confirmation that my ability exists, and that there's a second vit thief running around that hasn't admitted to it. If nothing else, all of that is true.
@sloth
Why are you not voting Anak?
Also did you ever say why you targeted GJ
'cause I'm voting you.
I'm not unwilling to vote Anak if that's what you're asking - If we don't get you out by yeet toDay, literally our best option for town's chances is to vote witted.
That's HR/me/tammy/KJ/Anak/Tubba/someone I'm forgetting?
In that case, my vote would be on Anak, or HR as a second preference - not so much 'cause he definitely is scum but because the other 3 probably aren't.
Azrael: I am a mafia Amadeus! I am the town's only hope at winning this game because I am the greatest at analysis and am so incredible I can solve this entire game by myself with my mind powers!
Also Azrael: I don't know who people voted for or even who they are.
As I said before, once we get to T-2 days until end of day, which is roughly 20 hours from now, I would recommend whoever has left to vote Azrael to go ahead. The double lynch possibility would have helped enormously, but it was always a reach, and at this point it's clearly not going to happen. We definitely should not risk no lynch happening again.
Nah.
I wasn't even the best player to sign up for this particular game. But I can accurately game-solve given the right tools, the right opponents, and the right teammates. So can a lot of other people who have put in enough time learning and practicing, just like any other skill. The right set of scum could have been a major problem for me, but most of you scum, it seems like your hearts weren't really in it this time. The ones who like being mafia and take pride in it - like Bessie - those are the ones you have to watch out for. The ones that make an art form out of it.
But feel free to continue to resort to the repeated ad hom. The more single-mindedly you try to undermine what I've written, the more it just underlines how important it is for you that the town ignore those reads. You're going a little overboard with that.
Vaimes, I took a cue from another of my past articles, the Pinocchio problem, and spread some disinformation in the hopes of drawing a scum NK (remote chance of that, as I told Anak) while telling Anak the truth RE: my claim, that I was "bullet-proof-ish". If I'm target of an ability that would make me lose equal to or more than X vitality, Y happens instead, where Y is me not losing as much vitality as they thought I would. The flavor explanation, dove-tailing nicely with the flavor of the books, is that I'm very hard to kill. Which Fitz certainly was.
I also stated the claim is provable, which is at least half true, since if you have LW or any other killing role blast at me, I'll survive quite a few shots of that. I could claim the precise amounts and numbers to either Tammy or Anak as needed, but I don't see that it serves any beneficial purpose to put that out there publicly.
This is also why I stated, after Silver gave me a vit, that I don't need any additional vit atm. I have quite enough that the mafia would have a most frustrating time trying to pick me off. Ironically enough, the only out the mafia really have for dealing with me, is exactly what the town is contemplating doing, instead of lynching the outed obv-scum.
How likely is it that there is a protective role, Boom's role that might turn into a bodyguard, and Az's bulletproofish role?
If Az is telling the truth about his role, it's not needed for mafia unless the vit thief is town, and considering nobody even seems close to admitting that they stole vit, I'm not sure. Unless we're dealing with two scum teams, then his role could be either really.
I don't know, but I am in the midst of prepping for classes that start Monday, and I have to have all my stuff posted by tomorrow night. I'll be around this whole time and won't miss deadline, but I'll be very scattered thought wise.
Azrael - It was my understanding that Bur doesn't really post that much regardless of their alignment. Where do you get that he really likes playing mafia and so would be here. And for Bessie, you said that she takes pride in being mafia, do you have experience with Bessie?
I presumed that Silver was the source of an additional vit that I received and immediately claimed, on a different day than Cuth. I can track that claim down for you and requote if that helps.
Iirc anak said yes to my question if azrael knew that anak gave him the vitality.
Did Azrael forget who gave him vit, does he find muddying the waters just a really important thing to do, or is anak lying?
I wouldn’t expect him to forget since he also discussed the reason silver was clearing cuth. Wish I could depend on either of the first two.
Neat.
Again, I can buy Azrael throwing people off Anak's scent by pretending to think it was Silver that gave him Vit.
However, again, this makes it even more crucial that he would clear this up prior to death.
no I am getting there, and I am also slowly going back to Cuth being a wolf as well, but I wanna talk to Cuth tomorrow, while we both have time to do real time
its actually completely nai, anything in regards to his crumb, he knows it
he is not stupid, he knows exactly how to look town as a wolf, and setting yourself up mechanically to look town, would not be hard for him
its actually completely nai, anything in regards to his crumb, he knows it
he is not stupid, he knows exactly how to look town as a wolf, and setting yourself up mechanically to look town, would not be hard for him
its actually completely nai, anything in regards to his crumb, he knows it
he is not stupid, he knows exactly how to look town as a wolf, and setting yourself up mechanically to look town, would not be hard for him
Sorry what's this in reference to?
the only person here that talked about a crumb from what I can remember, I saw u say something about his crumb "again"
it literally just has to be this PoE then
boom/Bessie never both wolves
@Sloth
I do not agree with your evaluation of Tubba, I just think given their anxiety/nervousness
that they are more likely to jump on their partners, and in that case, Cuth
if we assume Anak is a wolf which there are many reasons to assume he is a wolf
then its literally
Re: Tubba Really? ...I gotta be honest I thought you would be the one that would agree with me the most on this.
You think scum has two OG witters?
Also why bus their partners to me and me alone instead of the thread?
@Sloth
I mean, I guess its more of, "Anak assumed he knew"
but it doesn't really matter I think?
I would agree but he literally answered the question of whether HE had been the one to tell him.
I guess the phrasing of his response is ambiguous but, like. Why be ambiguous about that?
Re: Tubba Really? ...I gotta be honest I thought you would be the one that would agree with me the most on this.
You think scum has two OG witters? Also why bus their partners to me and me alone instead of the thread?
Wait, scratch that last sentence, I recognize it's BS now.
I just kind of felt that Tubba was trying to use the wit as a replacement to a sort of support chat, like in prison. Hm.
vote: Anak
ya I think its Cuth/Anak/Tubba
witted being factor means very little to me, since I want to assume it was random modifier added to people, else it swings the game if you just pick and choose who you give it to
The guy I just caught in a flat-out lie that he was using to try to cover up the posts that Tammy found of Az claims is more likely to be town?
Dude, I'm not there on Tubba. The reason I'm not voting you is because I am pretty certain on Anak based on tangible evidence. I do not have that certainty for Tubba, not even close.
Even if you're right on the OGs and on the bussing, I still think I'd have been shot (especially over CC) given the events overNight. Why would I still be alive?
Unless they were planning on MLing me since N1 (which, in fairness, may be what's happening given Cuth), but given the townreads I've gotten most of the game wouldn't it be easier to just kill me and try MLing almost any other player?
The guy I just caught in a flat-out lie that he was using to try to cover up the posts that Tammy found of Az claims is more likely to be town?
Dude, I'm not there on Tubba. The reason I'm not voting you is because I am pretty certain on Anak based on tangible evidence. I do not have that certainty for Tubba, not even close.
Even if you're right on the OGs and on the bussing, I still think I'd have been shot (especially over Cantrip*) given the events overNight. Why would I still be alive?
Unless they were planning on MLing me since N1 (which, in fairness, may be what's happening given Cuth), but given the townreads I've gotten most of the game wouldn't it be easier to just kill me and try MLing almost any other player?
fine, maybe I am still trying to hold on to Az's town read @Sloth
@Cuthalion
I mean we can see, again I will be around tomorrow and we can do some rereading and real time
also, I really am not interested in the crumbs, I will say, maybe it makes it feel more real, but I still think it's mostly NAI
As for Cuth, not feeling great about him, but that's definitely because I'm annoyed he keeps saying that I'm purposefully ******* up the game, which is a great feeling, regardless of his alignment or mine. Yay.
It did cross my mind that he may have been purposefully trying to piss me off? But that gains him nothing plus doesn't sound like him.
Still, his arguments boil down to "I haven't caught scum, and I've bussed townies, so I'm scum." Which. Great. I'm aware I haven't caught scum. Like, was I the only one working towards the yeets we've had? Were my arguments on Az or other players faulty or lacking? How? Use your words.
I was wrong. That doesn't make me scum. But I digress, I'm not going to get annoyed over this again.
I'll be around tomorrow at the same time as him, so I guess we can have a real-time-off then and I can ISO him while I'm at it.
Btw "have some confidence in yourselves" for town in reference to 3rder's random kills? That makes no sense.
Also Town specifically did not say how much vit each of us have left for the reasons you're describing.
Ftr, I was/am pushing for a Wisp yeet toDay because it is a valid strategy for this game. No one seemed to disagree with that when we proposed it D1.
At this point, we need a non-town yeet for Town security. If we ML and we go into Night with Wisp around potentially killing another townie, then the game's lost, I think? This is worst case scenario *****, but there's no reason why we should be risking a worst case scenario if we don't have to.
We haven't had a scum yeet. Wisp hasn't killed scum for us. If either of this wasn't the case, I'd see merit in not yeeting him, but they're not. If you don't see how that's simply logical, I can't help you.
If not Wisp, then definitely a Witter, because unless he's lying, that gets Wisp out too. And the only reason we would go for a witter instead of wisp is because we are certain we will hit scum otherwise. I think we're there on Anak, hence the change.
my personal issue with tubba's posts, and i can understand if you don't resonate with this as much
is that he takes anak/me as his top w-reads
anak isn't, i thin? (i tend to agree with vaimes here?) and i'm not
and then he says "bessie hasn't done much since the tammy stuff", and then puts her third in the poe with a bunch of question marks around her
when he provides ~real reasons to v-read most other people and we know we have four wolves alive
but like seems almost afraid to give more of a read there
so my position is that having two incorrect wolf reads (probably) at the top of the poe isn't damning, but artificially creating distance between those two names and the actually wolfy people in the poe (imo) rings a little worrying to me
especially when his suspicion of me is literally "hasn't been doing much to advance the gamestate"
side note this: "nor showed any urgency to charge it up so he could use it"
is ridiculous
because that was literally what i was trying to do all of d2 and at this point the game's close to over and i'd have to use the ability twice correctly after getting off a shot and survive until at least d7 to use it again
but there's no real consideration as to why, with four wolves left over, i'm a hard wolf and bessie's not at all, though we seem to be in the same subset of players according to his reads
you see what i mean?
I explained why I feel the way I do about you and Anak. It’s what I think is right. Bessie certainly fits the POE, which I said in my post, but I feel less sure.
As far as you charging up your ability, it ties to the theme of your play this game. You weren’t pushing anyone. You weren’t making cases on anyone. If you need to get the lunch to power up your shot, why didn’t you try and get traction on your scum reads? The only slot I can recall any push on was Boom, when that didn’t go you melted away again. I’m calling you a wolf because you’re play looks wolfy! You have to see how it looks, claiming a powerful ability that requires setup and work, and you did no setup nor work.
i'm not saying my play hasn't led to villagers dying, i'm saying i haven't been actively trying to yeet villagers all game
which is true regardless, because i've barely had any pushes this entire game and have spent most of it defending people/reiterating townreads
but it's a fairly meaningless point because obviously your picture of the poe is rather different from mine
I’m not sure what you mean by “meaningless point”. I’m noting that your play hasn’t seemed consistent with your claimed role abilities, or your claimed objectives. You should have pushes, you needed to get your scum reads yeeted.
@Vaimes: can you explain to me in a nice and simple way how town!Az and scum!Anal world makes any sense, especially if Anak claimed to Az and Az has been gaining vitality?
I can’t tell you how many times spell check has screwed this up for me...
sloth i'm not saying you're purposefully doing bad things in the game, apart from intimating that you might be a wolf
nothing i've said has had any implications related to anything outside people's posts in this game period
i trust wisp to target someone we all agree on, and basically everyone here thinks there's one in tubba and anak, so i don't see why we can't put our heads together and worst case scenario kill at least one wolf
killing wisp instead is silly and benefits town literally zero unless we commit to not actually solving the game
and i'm not pushing any of you for being wrong, though "being wrong" is predicated on the assumption that me and anak are both villagers which most of you haven't really addressed at all which bothers me a bit, i'm pushing you for having bad progressions and an approach to read- and world-building at this stage of the game which goes against my best understanding of town's win chances
tubba, you're misrepresenting/misremembering my actions
i needed to use the yeet ability literally once in theory
because i started with two and i needed three to shoot
i didn't claim d1 because i didn't need to, i claimed d2 because wisp was going to steal one of mine and i wanted to use it asap, i got a third vit start of d3 so i didn't make a big deal about it then because i had enough to shoot and hoped maybe the wolves wouldn't take it seriously and i could get a shot off, while still hardclaiming my entire role between vaimes and the rest of thread
I have addressed almost every world out there to be honest, I have been looking at everything
I don't usually live in these, "I'm right your wrong worlds", it's not my style, unless I really need to
anyways going to sleep
i think it's fairly likely we just lose overnight with non-perfect actions and not a wolf yeet or wolf wisp target today
i think it's fairly probably wolves have a factional vit drain ability as well as an individual one, and if so there will be multiple people (iirc) with claimed 1 vit who they could target, plus doctor wifom and whatnot
i wouldn't be surprised if they're able to take out two overnight
i want to get this right
and i think there's a good chance we can take two down with the two kills we do definitely control
The guy I just caught in a flat-out lie that he was using to try to cover up the posts that Tammy found of Az claims is more likely to be town?
Dude, I'm not there on Tubba. The reason I'm not voting you is because I am pretty certain on Anak based on tangible evidence. I do not have that certainty for Tubba, not even close.
Even if you're right on the OGs and on the bussing, I still think I'd have been shot (especially over CC) given the events overNight. Why would I still be alive?
Unless they were planning on MLing me since N1 (which, in fairness, may be what's happening given Cuth), but given the townreads I've gotten most of the game wouldn't it be easier to just kill me and try MLing almost any other player?
I guess sell me on him?
man I have no idea why u are still alive in town worlds, I don't have any idea why Tammy or Vaimes is alive either, it's nothing I can read into, maybe it's because you are pushing misyeets?
@Cuth: It's not true that every behavioral thing in Mafia is WIFOM. "Why would I do this as scum?" is WIFOM because maybe you did it to make the argument "Who would I do this as scum?" and have it be semi plausible. Even asking that makes this a variation of you saying "I would no do this as scum, I did this, therefore why do you think I'm scum". Its a circular argument that scum like to use to divert suspicion from themselves, or at least cause doubt.
As to your other point, my guess in that case would be you claimed in because you plan to use it, but if you didn't claim it earlier it would be too late when you did decide to use it. MAybe you felt it would be too risky to create a fake role, so you true claimed. It's not foolproof obviously, and I'm not super confident that that's the case, but it's not just "there's no reason Cuth would do this" like you seem to be implying I should think.
I do think that your role is likely a true claim, but you wouldn't be the first wolf to claim roleblock to avoid proving what role you actually have. Note: I also agree with Wisp that 3560 (and 3563) are good posts from Cuth. These are the kind of posts I expect to see from town.
Bur: Why would Cuth saying Cantrip there be a potentially wolfy thing to do there? Would wolf!Cuth really forget who they killed last Night?
Wisp: I'm currently in a bessie/Sloth/?/? situation at the moment.
Anyone: Can someone explain this thing with Anak/Az knowing or not knowing the vitality thing? Is it that Anak contridicted himself or is there specific significance to Az not knowing Anak targeted him?
Cuth again: What specifically makes you see a town!Anak?
Boom: Since you seem to know Bessie's playstyle: I currently see a high volume of defending herself and talking to people with shading tones. Is that normal for her?
Highroller: I don't know it's not LyLo today, but with claimed roles it's not currently LyLo. Lets say this: knowing it will not help us not lose to a mislynch today, so knowing it today is not relevent. I think we have a least one more Day left, so I'm holding off as long as I can.
Aslo yeeting Wisp doesn't help us win the game really. Winning the game requires dead mafia. Wisp is the lowest priority by far.
Also, if you think Wisp is mafia, why haven't you made a case to that effect? You've just been pushing him as a neutral and "threat to the town" instead of saying he's acutllay mafia because BLAH.
Sloth: Have you ever seen an arbitrary game mechanic just happen out of nowhere without it being connected to an ingame ability? There would be no info leading us to that conclusion.
Also again, I don't doubt you don't have that ability (or something like it, like maybe you drain a vit or something) but your ability is super boring and could have more to it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
THE ART OF DIPLOMACY is the luck of knowing more of your rival’s secrets than he knows of yours. Always deal from a position of power. These were Shrewd’s maxims. And Verity abided by them.
I would have missed your vote if it did not use the "vote:" syntax because I did a ctrl+f search for that. Please revote if you want your vote to be counted.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
my point was less to defend myself with that argument than to suggest that those suspecting me actually have to try harder than that to make any sort of convincing case, and that if they were calling me a wolf for a certain behavior that they should be held responsible to explain how the behavior makes sense as a wolf, with the aside that i don't think that's particularly easy to do in this case
but i'm not particularly concerned about that sector of the game's opinions on my alignment
i grant you that it's possible, but i think there are much more obvious stories which fit the evidence a lot more cleanly
wrt anak, it's mostly based on my (vague) understanding of his role at present and az's behavior towards him, but that's something i definitely want to touch on in more depth
@KJ: I never said it was wolfy? Just that I don't know that to think of that slip.
If this was early game it give him a temporary pass for town slip, but this late at game when I should comb everything through with the finest of combs... Yeah.
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
my point was less to defend myself with that argument than to suggest that those suspecting me actually have to try harder than that to make any sort of convincing case, and that if they were calling me a wolf for a certain behavior that they should be held responsible to explain how the behavior makes sense as a wolf, with the aside that i don't think that's particularly easy to do in this case
but i'm not particularly concerned about that sector of the game's opinions on my alignment
i grant you that it's possible, but i think there are much more obvious stories which fit the evidence a lot more cleanly
wrt anak, it's mostly based on my (vague) understanding of his role at present and az's behavior towards him, but that's something i definitely want to touch on in more depth
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ: I never said it was wolfy? Just that I don't know that to think of that slip.
If this was early game it give him a temporary pass for town slip, but this late at game when I should comb everything through with the finest of combs... Yeah.
I was asking a hypothetical. What would his wolf motive be?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
my point was less to defend myself with that argument than to suggest that those suspecting me actually have to try harder than that to make any sort of convincing case, and that if they were calling me a wolf for a certain behavior that they should be held responsible to explain how the behavior makes sense as a wolf, with the aside that i don't think that's particularly easy to do in this case
but i'm not particularly concerned about that sector of the game's opinions on my alignment
i grant you that it's possible, but i think there are much more obvious stories which fit the evidence a lot more cleanly
wrt anak, it's mostly based on my (vague) understanding of his role at present and az's behavior towards him, but that's something i definitely want to touch on in more depth
I don't think that's an answer to my Anak question
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
i trust wisp to target someone we all agree on, and basically everyone here thinks there's one in tubba and anak, so i don't see why we can't put our heads together and worst case scenario kill at least one wolf
killing wisp instead is silly and benefits town literally zero unless we commit to not actually solving the game
You've said that last sentence more than once and it's honestly ridiculous. What does removing a wild card have to do with not solving the game? In what way does killing Wisp (or outing him from the game by yeeting among the witted) keep us from solving the game? These are not related concepts.
For that matter, with the assumption of a 4-player scumteam, let's say that we kill Wisp toDay. We enter N4 at 7v4, then we add the two potential loses between the NK and their vit drain, bringing us to a 5v4 D5. We're at LyLo. It's not a great position to be in, but our ability to analyze has not been affected at all by his death.
Let's say we kill among the witted.
-Best case scenario, we kill scum witted and Wisp exits. We enter N4 at 7v3, and then D5 at 5v3. We're at LyLo again.
-Worst case scenario, we kill town witted and Wisp exits. We enter N4 at 6v4, and then D5 at 4v4. We're at LyLo again.
Let's say we don't kill Wisp or a witted.
-Best case scenario, we kill scum. We enter N4 with 7v3v1, Wisp kills scum again and exits. We enter D5 at 5v2. We get an extra day, not bad.
-Middle road 1, we kill town. We enter N4 with 6v4v1, Wisp kills scum and exits. We enter D5 at 4v3. LyLo again.
-Middle road 2, we kill scum. We enter N4 with 7v3v1, Wisp kills town and exits. We enter D5 at 4v3 again. ******* LyLo again.
-Worst case scenario, we kill town. We enter N4 with 6v4v1, Wisp kills town again and exits. We enter D5 at 3v4--wait no we don't we just ******* lose.
All the roads save two lead to LyLo, with one leading to total loss and the other puts the fate of the game on Wisp, who, helpful as he may be, is 3rder. I don't even think he'd take offense with me saying that 3rders can choose scumside at any point, and he doesn't need us to win.
Both of those scenarios require Wisp going into Night.
We shouldn't need Wisp to solve the ******* game, Cuth. And I don't want to put it in his hands. In fact right now the clearest path to safety is in controlling how many loses we have at Night as much as possible.
And to repeat, none of the above keeps us from solving the game ourselves. In NO WAY. Stop with the balderdash.
and i'm not pushing any of you for being wrong, though "being wrong" is predicated on the assumption that me and anak are both villagers which most of you haven't really addressed at all which bothers me a bit, i'm pushing you for having bad progressions and an approach to read- and world-building at this stage of the game which goes against my best understanding of town's win chances
To the bolded: what?
Are you saying here I haven't looked at the possibility that you/anak may be town?
I can't speak for others, but I have been looking into your claims, calling you out on what I think is wrong in your assessments, and asking others questions in regards to your claims to see if anything you're saying can be factually disproven (not that they've been specially responsive for the most part...)
All of that falls into me figuring you out. I haven't called you strongly scum to begin with, I think? So where are you getting the idea that I don't consider the possibility you're town at all? There's a reason I'm not pulling for your yeet.
As for Anak...I mean. Yeah.
Regarding the rest of this section, we're just going in circles: This is what I'm saying you're doing, not personal attacks or anything outside this "game period", but in the world you're town and seeing bad progressions, I invite you to get over yourself. My progressions aren't the same as yours, that doesn't make them bad.
Our understanding of what's best for town chances are clearly contrary, as seen by the Wisp situation above.
And to me, with every flip so far being green, the time is now to stop my previous world-building and start from scratch, which I've already said I was doing multiple times now.
i think it's fairly probably wolves have a factional vit drain ability as well as an individual one, and if so there will be multiple people (iirc) with claimed 1 vit who they could target, plus doctor wifom and whatnot
I brought this up already: No one has claimed their vit. In order to avoid the exact thing you are saying. What the hell are you talking about?
Multiple people? Right now only one player in the game has claimed 1 vit, and that was Boom. Who else are you thinking about?
@Vaimes btw, can you talk about what exactly cuth hardclaimed to you?
Also, this was D3, right? When we got that free skill?
The guy I just caught in a flat-out lie that he was using to try to cover up the posts that Tammy found of Az claims is more likely to be town?
Dude, I'm not there on Tubba. The reason I'm not voting you is because I am pretty certain on Anak based on tangible evidence. I do not have that certainty for Tubba, not even close.
Even if you're right on the OGs and on the bussing, I still think I'd have been shot (especially over CC) given the events overNight. Why would I still be alive?
Unless they were planning on MLing me since N1 (which, in fairness, may be what's happening given Cuth), but given the townreads I've gotten most of the game wouldn't it be easier to just kill me and try MLing almost any other player?
I guess sell me on him?
man I have no idea why u are still alive in town worlds, I don't have any idea why Tammy or Vaimes is alive either, it's nothing I can read into, maybe it's because you are pushing misyeets?
Where is this coming from again?
In fairness, I don't think Vaimes is like, the towniest town to ever town this game, so I don't think he would be an immediate target.
There's always the possibility that it's because I've been pushing MLs, been wrong, etc. That's why everything was starting from scratch toDay.
However, and forgive me for sounding prideful, I refuse to believe I'm wrong in absolutely everything. Town reads are ~easier to find than scum ones sometimes? But I'm not hanging my hat on anything.
However, all of this is NK analysis and not really my jam. There are easy reasons for each of the kills so far - doesn't mean they are the true reasons, just that you can always explain away everything and trying to think of it more might just get you cross-eyed.
N1: Rhand's rhand.
N2: Silver's silver and he had just claimed to be able to pass around vit.
N3: Doc claims D3 probably made scum shoot on the lurkers?
shooting wisp is dumb because we have at least two shots and the poe is small and assuming it's a foregone conclusion we don't hit a wolf with either of those is pretty silly and there's a good chance it lets wolves win overnight
if i shoot i have one vit, there's one
vaimes, the thing is just the way multiple people responded to what i said after i said it, something i was hoping you would picking up on but not necessarily expecting
What the hell. Did you even assimilate what I said? Why are you so desperate to have Wisp take a shot toNight? Why is it worth the risk? We should be playing carefully right now not just shoot all over the place.
Also I thought this went without saying, but this also means you should be ******* holstering your shot too.
Did you seriously just meant you when you were talking about the 1vit?
But yes, my answer to your question, if not clear, is that neighbors are not investigative roles.
In reverse order: Thank you for answering.
I'm just assuming none of us were responsible for the Awakening, it was a game mechanic. A townie might have the ability and hide it due to <redacted>, but you have to admit it just doesn't fit as a scum ability.
Bur's ability to have multiple private chats with a limitless number of players honestly seems pretty powerful as is. It's not impossible that he could have more abilities, but there's nothing that's making me think he has to.
It's been brought up before, but neighborizers can easily be mafia - so the ability itself says nothing for Bur's alignment (biggest example that comes to mind is seinen with w!Purity and t!Dragoon).
Like I said, I don't disbelieve that both Cuth and I could exist in the same alignment as they seem to balance each other, but yeah, it's def possiblye that there's scum between the two of us and that that scum is totally Cuth.
Seriously though, you have confirmation that my ability exists, and that there's a second vit thief running around that hasn't admitted to it. If nothing else, all of that is true.
I'm not unwilling to vote Anak if that's what you're asking - If we don't get you out by yeet toDay, literally our best option for town's chances is to vote witted.
That's HR/me/tammy/KJ/Anak/Tubba/someone I'm forgetting?
In that case, my vote would be on Anak, or HR as a second preference - not so much 'cause he definitely is scum but because the other 3 probably aren't.
Again, I can buy Azrael throwing people off Anak's scent by pretending to think it was Silver that gave him Vit.
However, again, this makes it even more crucial that he would clear this up prior to death.
its actually completely nai, anything in regards to his crumb, he knows it
he is not stupid, he knows exactly how to look town as a wolf, and setting yourself up mechanically to look town, would not be hard for him
...Ok, so this is a smoking gun, right? There's no other way to interpret this.
unvote
Vote: Anak
Tubba Fett
Anaklusmos
Bur
boomfrog
Bessie
Cuthalion
it literally just has to be this PoE then
boom/Bessie never both wolves
@Sloth
I do not agree with your evaluation of Tubba, I just think given their anxiety/nervousness
that they are more likely to jump on their partners, and in that case, Cuth
if we assume Anak is a wolf which there are many reasons to assume he is a wolf
then its literally
Cuth/Tubba/Anak/x
with x being:
Bur
boomfrog
Bessie
I mean, I guess its more of, "Anak assumed he knew"
but it doesn't really matter I think?
You think scum has two OG witters?
Also why bus their partners to me and me alone instead of the thread?
I guess the phrasing of his response is ambiguous but, like. Why be ambiguous about that?
I just kind of felt that Tubba was trying to use the wit as a replacement to a sort of support chat, like in prison. Hm.
ya I think its Cuth/Anak/Tubba
witted being factor means very little to me, since I want to assume it was random modifier added to people, else it swings the game if you just pick and choose who you give it to
im doing this
vote: Tubba
Anak is the one in the group more likely to be town even if only by a smudge
Dude, I'm not there on Tubba. The reason I'm not voting you is because I am pretty certain on Anak based on tangible evidence. I do not have that certainty for Tubba, not even close.
Even if you're right on the OGs and on the bussing, I still think I'd have been shot (especially over CC) given the events overNight. Why would I still be alive?
Unless they were planning on MLing me since N1 (which, in fairness, may be what's happening given Cuth), but given the townreads I've gotten most of the game wouldn't it be easier to just kill me and try MLing almost any other player?
I guess sell me on him?
so i'll probably save that until tomorrow
but i was specifically talking about bessie's post
but you're still being silly and i assume we can fix that tomorrow
and i claimed my entire role apart from the specific shot aspect at the start of d3
pick a better reason my dude
@Cuthalion
I mean we can see, again I will be around tomorrow and we can do some rereading and real time
also, I really am not interested in the crumbs, I will say, maybe it makes it feel more real, but I still think it's mostly NAI
vote: Anak
It did cross my mind that he may have been purposefully trying to piss me off? But that gains him nothing plus doesn't sound like him.
Still, his arguments boil down to "I haven't caught scum, and I've bussed townies, so I'm scum." Which. Great. I'm aware I haven't caught scum. Like, was I the only one working towards the yeets we've had? Were my arguments on Az or other players faulty or lacking? How? Use your words.
I was wrong. That doesn't make me scum. But I digress, I'm not going to get annoyed over this again.
I'll be around tomorrow at the same time as him, so I guess we can have a real-time-off then and I can ISO him while I'm at it.
Btw "have some confidence in yourselves" for town in reference to 3rder's random kills? That makes no sense.
Also Town specifically did not say how much vit each of us have left for the reasons you're describing.
Ftr, I was/am pushing for a Wisp yeet toDay because it is a valid strategy for this game. No one seemed to disagree with that when we proposed it D1.
At this point, we need a non-town yeet for Town security. If we ML and we go into Night with Wisp around potentially killing another townie, then the game's lost, I think? This is worst case scenario *****, but there's no reason why we should be risking a worst case scenario if we don't have to.
We haven't had a scum yeet. Wisp hasn't killed scum for us. If either of this wasn't the case, I'd see merit in not yeeting him, but they're not. If you don't see how that's simply logical, I can't help you.
If not Wisp, then definitely a Witter, because unless he's lying, that gets Wisp out too. And the only reason we would go for a witter instead of wisp is because we are certain we will hit scum otherwise. I think we're there on Anak, hence the change.
(Thread's been real serious as of late, here's a funny gif hope it makes ya laugh)
I explained why I feel the way I do about you and Anak. It’s what I think is right. Bessie certainly fits the POE, which I said in my post, but I feel less sure.
As far as you charging up your ability, it ties to the theme of your play this game. You weren’t pushing anyone. You weren’t making cases on anyone. If you need to get the lunch to power up your shot, why didn’t you try and get traction on your scum reads? The only slot I can recall any push on was Boom, when that didn’t go you melted away again. I’m calling you a wolf because you’re play looks wolfy! You have to see how it looks, claiming a powerful ability that requires setup and work, and you did no setup nor work.
I’m not sure what you mean by “meaningless point”. I’m noting that your play hasn’t seemed consistent with your claimed role abilities, or your claimed objectives. You should have pushes, you needed to get your scum reads yeeted.
I can’t tell you how many times spell check has screwed this up for me...
sloth i'm not saying you're purposefully doing bad things in the game, apart from intimating that you might be a wolf
nothing i've said has had any implications related to anything outside people's posts in this game period
i trust wisp to target someone we all agree on, and basically everyone here thinks there's one in tubba and anak, so i don't see why we can't put our heads together and worst case scenario kill at least one wolf
killing wisp instead is silly and benefits town literally zero unless we commit to not actually solving the game
and i'm not pushing any of you for being wrong, though "being wrong" is predicated on the assumption that me and anak are both villagers which most of you haven't really addressed at all which bothers me a bit, i'm pushing you for having bad progressions and an approach to read- and world-building at this stage of the game which goes against my best understanding of town's win chances
tubba, you're misrepresenting/misremembering my actions
i needed to use the yeet ability literally once in theory
because i started with two and i needed three to shoot
i didn't claim d1 because i didn't need to, i claimed d2 because wisp was going to steal one of mine and i wanted to use it asap, i got a third vit start of d3 so i didn't make a big deal about it then because i had enough to shoot and hoped maybe the wolves wouldn't take it seriously and i could get a shot off, while still hardclaiming my entire role between vaimes and the rest of thread
I don't usually live in these, "I'm right your wrong worlds", it's not my style, unless I really need to
anyways going to sleep
i want to make sure we're clear on this point
i think it's fairly likely we just lose overnight with non-perfect actions and not a wolf yeet or wolf wisp target today
i think it's fairly probably wolves have a factional vit drain ability as well as an individual one, and if so there will be multiple people (iirc) with claimed 1 vit who they could target, plus doctor wifom and whatnot
i wouldn't be surprised if they're able to take out two overnight
i want to get this right
and i think there's a good chance we can take two down with the two kills we do definitely control
You're presuming he's telling the truth about being neutral, correct? So what does it matter to him? He's one kill from winning.
Killing Wisp IS solving the game.
Y'all even missed a day phase, because half of you didn't come back for EoD
I am not a wolf lol, u are the only person in the game throwing those jabs still
As to your other point, my guess in that case would be you claimed in because you plan to use it, but if you didn't claim it earlier it would be too late when you did decide to use it. MAybe you felt it would be too risky to create a fake role, so you true claimed. It's not foolproof obviously, and I'm not super confident that that's the case, but it's not just "there's no reason Cuth would do this" like you seem to be implying I should think.
I do think that your role is likely a true claim, but you wouldn't be the first wolf to claim roleblock to avoid proving what role you actually have.
Note: I also agree with Wisp that 3560 (and 3563) are good posts from Cuth. These are the kind of posts I expect to see from town.
Bur: Why would Cuth saying Cantrip there be a potentially wolfy thing to do there? Would wolf!Cuth really forget who they killed last Night?
Wisp: I'm currently in a bessie/Sloth/?/? situation at the moment.
Anyone: Can someone explain this thing with Anak/Az knowing or not knowing the vitality thing? Is it that Anak contridicted himself or is there specific significance to Az not knowing Anak targeted him?
Cuth again: What specifically makes you see a town!Anak?
Boom: Since you seem to know Bessie's playstyle: I currently see a high volume of defending herself and talking to people with shading tones. Is that normal for her?
Highroller: I don't know it's not LyLo today, but with claimed roles it's not currently LyLo. Lets say this: knowing it will not help us not lose to a mislynch today, so knowing it today is not relevent. I think we have a least one more Day left, so I'm holding off as long as I can.
Aslo yeeting Wisp doesn't help us win the game really. Winning the game requires dead mafia. Wisp is the lowest priority by far.
Also, if you think Wisp is mafia, why haven't you made a case to that effect? You've just been pushing him as a neutral and "threat to the town" instead of saying he's acutllay mafia because BLAH.
Sloth: Have you ever seen an arbitrary game mechanic just happen out of nowhere without it being connected to an ingame ability? There would be no info leading us to that conclusion.
Also again, I don't doubt you don't have that ability (or something like it, like maybe you drain a vit or something) but your ability is super boring and could have more to it.
Anak (2): Sloth, Wisp
Cuthalion (1): Vaimes
Bessie (1): Cuth
Wisp (1): Bessie
Not Voting (7): Tubba, Anak, Bur, HR, BoomFrog, KJ, Tammy
With 12 alive it takes 7 votes to reach majority.
The day ends Monday the 25th at 0900 AEDT. Timer
I would have missed your vote if it did not use the "vote:" syntax because I did a ctrl+f search for that. Please revote if you want your vote to be counted.
but i'm not particularly concerned about that sector of the game's opinions on my alignment
i grant you that it's possible, but i think there are much more obvious stories which fit the evidence a lot more cleanly
wrt anak, it's mostly based on my (vague) understanding of his role at present and az's behavior towards him, but that's something i definitely want to touch on in more depth
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Non-Staff Quasi-ModIf this was early game it give him a temporary pass for town slip, but this late at game when I should comb everything through with the finest of combs... Yeah.
You've said that last sentence more than once and it's honestly ridiculous. What does removing a wild card have to do with not solving the game? In what way does killing Wisp (or outing him from the game by yeeting among the witted) keep us from solving the game? These are not related concepts.
For that matter, with the assumption of a 4-player scumteam, let's say that we kill Wisp toDay. We enter N4 at 7v4, then we add the two potential loses between the NK and their vit drain, bringing us to a 5v4 D5. We're at LyLo. It's not a great position to be in, but our ability to analyze has not been affected at all by his death.
Let's say we kill among the witted.
-Best case scenario, we kill scum witted and Wisp exits. We enter N4 at 7v3, and then D5 at 5v3. We're at LyLo again.
-Worst case scenario, we kill town witted and Wisp exits. We enter N4 at 6v4, and then D5 at 4v4. We're at LyLo again.
Let's say we don't kill Wisp or a witted.
-Best case scenario, we kill scum. We enter N4 with 7v3v1, Wisp kills scum again and exits. We enter D5 at 5v2. We get an extra day, not bad.
-Middle road 1, we kill town. We enter N4 with 6v4v1, Wisp kills scum and exits. We enter D5 at 4v3. LyLo again.
-Middle road 2, we kill scum. We enter N4 with 7v3v1, Wisp kills town and exits. We enter D5 at 4v3 again. ******* LyLo again.
-Worst case scenario, we kill town. We enter N4 with 6v4v1, Wisp kills town again and exits. We enter D5 at 3v4--wait no we don't we just ******* lose.
All the roads save two lead to LyLo, with one leading to total loss and the other puts the fate of the game on Wisp, who, helpful as he may be, is 3rder. I don't even think he'd take offense with me saying that 3rders can choose scumside at any point, and he doesn't need us to win.
Both of those scenarios require Wisp going into Night.
We shouldn't need Wisp to solve the ******* game, Cuth. And I don't want to put it in his hands. In fact right now the clearest path to safety is in controlling how many loses we have at Night as much as possible.
And to repeat, none of the above keeps us from solving the game ourselves. In NO WAY. Stop with the balderdash.
To the bolded: what?
Are you saying here I haven't looked at the possibility that you/anak may be town?
I can't speak for others, but I have been looking into your claims, calling you out on what I think is wrong in your assessments, and asking others questions in regards to your claims to see if anything you're saying can be factually disproven (not that they've been specially responsive for the most part...)
All of that falls into me figuring you out. I haven't called you strongly scum to begin with, I think? So where are you getting the idea that I don't consider the possibility you're town at all? There's a reason I'm not pulling for your yeet.
As for Anak...I mean. Yeah.
Regarding the rest of this section, we're just going in circles: This is what I'm saying you're doing, not personal attacks or anything outside this "game period", but in the world you're town and seeing bad progressions, I invite you to get over yourself. My progressions aren't the same as yours, that doesn't make them bad.
Our understanding of what's best for town chances are clearly contrary, as seen by the Wisp situation above.
And to me, with every flip so far being green, the time is now to stop my previous world-building and start from scratch, which I've already said I was doing multiple times now.
Ok, surprise me.
I brought this up already: No one has claimed their vit. In order to avoid the exact thing you are saying. What the hell are you talking about?
Multiple people? Right now only one player in the game has claimed 1 vit, and that was Boom. Who else are you thinking about?
@Vaimes btw, can you talk about what exactly cuth hardclaimed to you?
Also, this was D3, right? When we got that free skill?
In fairness, I don't think Vaimes is like, the towniest town to ever town this game, so I don't think he would be an immediate target.
There's always the possibility that it's because I've been pushing MLs, been wrong, etc. That's why everything was starting from scratch toDay.
However, and forgive me for sounding prideful, I refuse to believe I'm wrong in absolutely everything. Town reads are ~easier to find than scum ones sometimes? But I'm not hanging my hat on anything.
However, all of this is NK analysis and not really my jam. There are easy reasons for each of the kills so far - doesn't mean they are the true reasons, just that you can always explain away everything and trying to think of it more might just get you cross-eyed.
N1: Rhand's rhand.
N2: Silver's silver and he had just claimed to be able to pass around vit.
N3: Doc claims D3 probably made scum shoot on the lurkers?
if i shoot i have one vit, there's one
vaimes, the thing is just the way multiple people responded to what i said after i said it, something i was hoping you would picking up on but not necessarily expecting
Also I thought this went without saying, but this also means you should be ******* holstering your shot too.
Did you seriously just meant you when you were talking about the 1vit?
Address the rest of my post.