I'm skipping ZDS, obviously. I still think he is the most likely to be scum for reasons previously stated. I'm also not posting any thoughts on Vaimes and Highroller. I wrote "something about a bird" in my notes and I think that pretty much sums it up.
Silver: I get generally good vibes from his posts. One thing that stuck out to me was his coy unjustified vote to see if anyone called him on it. Seems more like a townie type of poking around. Reading town.
Rodemy: He pushed on ZDS early, which I like. Hasn't really done much else, but with valid reason. No read.
Prophylaxis: His early lurker push looked like scum trying to look like they are contributing while not adding anything of value, but that's a moot point given both his level of contribution and his push to get others to contribute. Reading town.
Grapefruit21: I don't get any particular vibe from his posts one way or the other, but I generally agree with his reads. The one exception being his town read of ZDS. Leaning town read.
Axelrod: Not getting anything one way or the other. One thing I remember about Ax is that I could never read him, so this is pretty unsurprising. No read.
JoeTerry: His posting of notes is suspect to me. While there are some opinions in there, it's buried in a lot of meaningless recap. When I write notes, I put them in a file so they're easy to add to or edit as I go. That makes sense to me. I don't see what the value of posting them in the thread unless you just want to make sure everyone else knows that you're taking notes. Seems to be prioritizing appearances over functionality or efficiency.
Also that last bit about getting tunneled seems pretty defeatist and prematurely defensive. "Hope that helps, I doubt it will because you already seem like you're tunneled. It's almost a sure thing that anyone who posts anything substantial like I did to catch up, will be attacked because it's content, content that people can like or dislike."
Plenty of people are posting content and not taking heat for it. Seems like he's setting up a "this always happens to me" defense while preemptively trying to discredit anyone who would question him.
That being said, if he does this every game as he says he does than I guess it's a non-tell. It still feels suspect to me, but I'll give it a pass for now. Reading as mildly questionable.
Gonna split this into a 2nd post.
he gets "no particular vibe one way or the other" but then settles on "leaning town".
4) What do you think of CropCircles? As far as I'm aware of the thread's been mostly Highroller laying it into ZDS, ZDS defending himself, and then trying to point people into voting someone he suspects (CC)
I have no strong opinions on CropCircles. It's a blindspot I should rectify.
@Proph I just ISO'd CropCircles and I'm not moved in any direction. He's been under pressure since the jump and hasn't done much. I don't think ZDS is scum but his swing from calling the pile on suspicious to voting ZDS feels >rand to be town to me. This excerpt in particular felt like a townie thought.
The real difference here is that Proph put a target on half the players in the game for something that obviously isn't actually telling at all. It was clearly too early in the game to start lurker hunting as several of us hadn't even checked in. My accusation was against unjustified bandwagon votes, which is an accusation against just two players and is for a legitimate reason. As opposed to a meaningless accusation against half the town.
proph asks grapefruit to check into cropcircles, gf's like "i dont know her". then gf does iso CC and comes back like "I'm not moved in any direction. He's been under pressure since the jump and hasn't done much" which kind of surprises me. i feel like if you have a read that someone hasn't done much under pressure, that's gotta mean something. it'd be a reason to start leaning wolf, i'd think. idk.
he's also like "this post of cc's feels townie" and from what i can see it's just a random paragraph that i can't make any particular alignment read off of.
grapefruit, can you walk me thru your thinking on why this paragraph is more likely to come from town?
The real difference here is that Proph put a target on half the players in the game for something that obviously isn't actually telling at all. It was clearly too early in the game to start lurker hunting as several of us hadn't even checked in. My accusation was against unjustified bandwagon votes, which is an accusation against just two players and is for a legitimate reason. As opposed to a meaningless accusation against half the town.
conclusion: 7.2/10 compatible! they each seem pretty hesitant to express thoughts about each other. they each settle on weak townreads based on ??. are they compatible? yeah, moderately. no smoking guns but there's nothing indicating otherwise.
i'd like to stress: the purpose of this analysis is to see whether cc and gf are compatible as partners, in order to see if the world i'm starting to piece together in my mind is internally consistent. it's not, in itself, evidence that any of the behavior indicated here is particularly scummy.
@Proph: I'll try to tonight. I'm looking forward to watching Jim Carrey play Joe Biden on SNL though. Maybe I can do both
Shoot I was wrong. October 3rd.
Ok, just went back and reread CC's recap posts. He didn't just omit Vaimes originally, he also omitted Highroller. Noted. He does have some interactions with Vaimes, but they don't bat a suspicious eye at all, mostly just "Hey Vaimes, what do you think about this?" kind of stuff.
Cross referencing with Vaimes ISO...
Vaimes declares Crop Circles a designated misyeet, despite several players calling CC a "Legend". Also doesn't feel like he needs to towncase CC at all. He does put some heat on Highroller early, but then shifts him decidedly to the town pool. Looking back at some Vaimes and Highroller exchanges, I don't think Highroller is on the same team as Vaimes because of the Bird confusion. Vaimes said "Since when is Bird a roll" apparently missing his claim, which I don't think happens if they are scum buddies.
Bah, I don't know. Vaimes ISO felt really light also. I will vote CC or Vaimes today. I'm going to go back through each of those players again and pick one.
@Highroller what's the endgame of your insistence about stanning? That Proph must be scum trying to appease people? Or not even must just is scum indicative? Because yes trying to appease people can be a scum tactic but it's not strong on it's own. I'm not even really opposed to scum reading Proph here I just think this is weak reasoning. But I'm probably done talking about it because I think you're town and I'm not really interested in defending Proph here.
@Ampharos Hi! I'm curious what you think of my read of CC? I agree witb you tbat the Jack/DK thing is intriguing but I think the other stuff with ZDS points to him being town.
oop missed this post in the GF iso. ok that's some sticking to the read. this is the first post between the two (cc/gf) that would remotely surprise me coming from a scum partner. cut .4 off that score, 6.8/10.
Someone fill in the blank for me. I'm willing to pardon Grape for now but could easily see myself squishing him.
Axelrod/Highroller/CropCircles
I'm assuming you were making a list of the coolest people here, yes?
Initial thoughts: I think nothing of the supposed claims and posting restrictions, or whatever is going on there. I don't think anything can be gleaned from that. I think the early pile on ZDS was a bit unwarranted, and subsequently a bit sus. I'm also not a fan of of Prophylaxis calling attention to low posters so early. Seems like planting seeds early to justify votes later.
I'm skipping ZDS, obviously. I still think he is the most likely to be scum for reasons previously stated. I'm also not posting any thoughts on Vaimes and Highroller. I wrote "something about a bird" in my notes and I think that pretty much sums it up.
huh, this one's weird. implies that cc has thoughts but just isn't posting them. odd.
@CropCircles: I couldn't help but notice you didn't take much of a stance on Vaimes in your recent catch up post. Whatcha got on Vaimes?
Looking back, I think I misread his exchange with Highroller. I thought he was signaling something. My general vibe from him has been leaning town, so I was content to not look into him further, but now I may need to reevaluate.
oh okay, cc thought he saw a softclaim in there and now is doubting that. "leaning town". those leans.
overall, cc appears pretty comfortable posting thoughts about vaimes.
hokay time to stretch the ol ctrl+f muscles and get lookin at someone with a 5-page iso
Expand on this team and also when do you not think I'm scum lol. In general on this site I'm either largely town read or scum read with no middle ground. On that actually the fact ZDS has not took any stance on me based off how recent games together is weird to me, but that is perhaps due to my lack of content and also his war with Highroller.
The first impression I got from your post to Axelrod was "forced scumbuddy interaction." Even if that post was worth responding to at all, I find it even less likely the part of his post that prompted you to quote it was the boring "scum blah blah lurkers blah" line.
I'm not in love with Highroller's early tunneling because it could be a way to be active without really giving content [on other players]. But he's a bird so I'm okay with him.
ZDS: it looks like he’s listing a buddy and a villager but trying to group them in the same way. It means nothing on its own, but for me, specifically keeping my eye out for a JT/Axel/Jack team, it’s an elegant addition.
I don’t feel any need to towncase CC. Right now I think he’s a misyeet scum need. I’ll read your posts about him again and marinate on it, though.
describing CC as "a misyeet scum need" feels... not w/w to me.
That all being said, I'm voting Crop Circles right now, not you. You say Crop Circles is town lean. Help me out on this one and expand.
Why are you voting for someone who's being defensive rather than the person you've disliked for literally the whole game, as you said? Seems weak.
CC just feels like a designated misyeet. I don't really have any specific townread on them, just that I think they're an easy wagon and easy wagons are rarely on mafia. The best I can do is that I got a similar vibe from Zionite - old mafia player making a return, but get scumread because their approach was from a different site meta.
"designated misyeet", hm. "the wagon's too easy" i think comes from scum more often actually. idk if it comes from scum *about* scum tho.
What exactly does "put some effort" mean? Should I end all of my posts with VOTE JACKRITO?
I've laid out why I'm scumreading Jack, he has yet to explain his blatantly false read on me, and aside from a couple of "oh yeah that's weird" reactions people seem largely uninterested.
I don't think wagon speed means anything. Why do you think it means anything? This has been a pretty slow Day 1 all around, and if CC is a villager that's getting heat scum don't even really have to do anything [if they aren't the ones driving it].
another post saying "cc is a villager" but not actively defending him.
CC probably dies but I don't think my vote is necessary.
@CC: even if you don't have the votes right now, you most likely will unless you swing a bunch of votes elsewhere, and people need time to process your claim if necessary.
man now he's resigned to CC dying, who he thinks is a villager, but has no interest in defending.
okay, wow. what a weird interactive analysis that was. vaimes seems to have a consistent townread on cc, throughout the game, seems to believe that the cc wagon is a "misyeet", seems to think it's inevitable, but seems to spend no effort actually convincing people not to chop cc.
1) vaimes and cc are probably not partners. i'm gonna say 2.1/10 compatibility. cc feels relaxed and comfortable interacting with vaimes, and i think if vaimes saw a partner going down, he'd try to do something more active about it.
2) vote: Vaimes. i recommend you read the spoiler of his posts quoted above tbh. this whole "cc is town but i cba to defend him from being mischopped" vibe is no bueno.
Would be willing to lynch the following people today: ZDS, Proph, or Cayvie. (Sorry Cayvie, I know you just switched in, but your predecessor, Jackrito, did nothing but bandwagon all day.)
Someone needs to explain to me exactly why CropCircles is a better lynch candidate than the above, because the CropCircles wagon has been awful.
@Silver FYI, this is the kind of stance I expect from someone scumreading much of the CC wagon.
he's also like "this post of cc's feels townie" and from what i can see it's just a random paragraph that i can't make any particular alignment read off of.
The paragraph in question is the exact same paragraph CC self-quoted in his last post to accuse me. I don't know what to make of it but I can't help notice the coincidence.
Re: Above: Based on your analysis Vaimes is only scummy if CC is town and he's washing his hands off that wagon, so I think it's too early to follow that path without a CC flip. Moreover, even if CC flips town, Vaimes is the type who often can't be arsed as either alignment.
I do think he should answer the part about letting a town read die, but I don't have high expectations for a meaningful answer.
--
@JoeTerry Correct the following sentence if I'm wrong: Your analysis of CC-Vaimes interactions came up inconclusive and your vote went to the individually scummier one, who happened to be CC, but you could still be swayed to vote Vaimes instead.
Would be willing to lynch the following people today: ZDS, Proph, or Cayvie. (Sorry Cayvie, I know you just switched in, but your predecessor, Jackrito, did nothing but bandwagon all day.)
Someone needs to explain to me exactly why CropCircles is a better lynch candidate than the above, because the CropCircles wagon has been awful.
@Silver FYI, this is the kind of stance I expect from someone scumreading much of the CC wagon.
he's also like "this post of cc's feels townie" and from what i can see it's just a random paragraph that i can't make any particular alignment read off of.
The paragraph in question is the exact same paragraph CC self-quoted in his last post to accuse me. I don't know what to make of it but I can't help notice the coincidence.
Re: Above: Based on your analysis Vaimes is only scummy if CC is town and he's washing his hands off that wagon, so I think it's too early to follow that path without a CC flip. Moreover, even if CC flips town, Vaimes is the type who often can't be arsed as either alignment.
I do think he should answer the part about letting a town read die, but I don't have high expectations for a meaningful answer.
--
@JoeTerry Correct the following sentence if I'm wrong: Your analysis of CC-Vaimes interactions came up inconclusive and your vote went to the individually scummier one, who happened to be CC, but you could still be swayed to vote Vaimes instead.
This feels like a trap, but I’ll bite. I found CC and Vaimes interactions to be jovial/friendly/unconcerned. That in itself doesn’t really say too much without a flip, but then I re-read CC’s catch up post and it was all waffles with notable absences of any commentary (besides literally saying “no comment”) on highroller and Vaimes and the exception tunnel on ZDS.
So I voted CC. I’m a bit tired of repeating myself. I think my posts are pretty easy to follow, so try harder?
Also, I ended up getting five wins in my sealed event with a what I thought was a pretty weak BW cleric build.
Yo Terry, can you answer some questions I had from before:
Quote from Prophylaxis »
You're saying that drawing the distinction between Rodemy's roleplaying and Highroller's claim could be interpreted as forcing? You literally said that you thought it "seemed forced". Why are you now saying "it could be interpreted as forcing"? It could be me misunderstanding things but the fact that you're wording this from a third-party POV "it could be interpreted as forcing" doesn't make me feel good
Got it, re the posts you are agreeing with me on. Kind of a nitpicky question but why did you highlight specifically post 130? I reread that post and it was me bringing up Rodemy meta from 6 years ago, calling myself a ZDS stan, and then asking CC some questions. Don't specifically see what exactly in that post is so agreeable unless you liked my questions or something? (Or the "ignoring Rodemy because he's Rodemy", though I suppose that point is moot now that he is Amy)
Shoot I forgot to do this but I need sleep. Can we talk about this tomorrow?
How come that was posted before i could say a thing?
@Vaimes while catching up this is the second self meta refference, one was the Lagoon scum game and this is the second from what i've read (in my post 462 above)
Can you quote them both?
@Joe I don't lay traps, I am legitimately trying to figure out where you stand.
You have had Vaimes and CC as your top scumspects since your re-read, but after that you have made posts that imply you changed your mind (unvoting CC, finding the CC-Vaimes interactions inconclusive) AND made posts that imply you have *not* changed your mind, *without* ever making it clear if and how your stance on the two had progressed since the re-read.
It's confusing. It's hard to tell whether you are genuinely reconsidering your tunnel or merely pretending to do so. Do you get that?
Part of the reason I'm tunneling you is because I can't make sense of your (lack of) progression, and because of the timing of unvoting then re-voting CC. I have a much easier time seeing you as a scumbuddy flip-flopping between bussing and not bussing and bussing again.
Of course if CC flips town, that's moot. If CC flips scum, I want to understand your thought process in case you aren't actually his partner.
----
In Prison Block II Vaimes and I were scumbuddies, and I thoroughly threw him under the bus.
To summarise it, Vaimes in that game:
— Posted A LOT of meaningless fluff. Seriously, 90% of his posts were completely dispensable.
— Threw opinions and votes like he was playing darts blindfolded.
— Conveniently changed his mind in order to bandwagon town.
— Barely ever applied pressure to anyone.
Other than maybe the last point, this has not been the current Vaimes at all. It's possible of course he has improved his scum game a lot since then, but nevertheless he is solidly town by comparison.
That was mostly @JoeTerry and @cayvie, or @anyone interested.
Being caught up until page 4 means I still have to read half of the game..
I read ZDS's post above and I dislike the infolynch he is implying by 'Of course if CC flips town, that's moot. If CC flips scum, I want to understand your thought process in case you aren't actually his partner.'.
I know town have to vote the player who they think looks like scum, ZDS in tunneling JoeTerry but he is voting CC and this looks odd for me.
Vote: ZeDorkSlipeur
I don't really care what AI has CC right now. Reason: he comes after a huge break and plays completely disconnected and he is not similar with his old self from what i understood. We have 3 mafia, let's say CC is mafia, order of lynches matters and i don't think he is the best lynch for town from any Poe we can construct including him. IF he is not, however, lynching him day 1 is the ugliest thing that townies can do in a game. I say we better give him the chance to play one day more and who survive will decide in the next day if he is real scum or not.
Also i still trust DKs read on Proph, especially because his wagon doesn't have traction.
I'm voting CC because I think he's scum and he's my strongest scum-read (above JoeTerry). It's a fact that his flip will influence my other reads, including and perhaps especially the one on JoeTerry.
Recently I have been interacting with JoeTerry because he was posting and interacting back. CC doesn't post that often so it's hard to interact with him.
With regards to cutting CC some slack for his come back, I understand the sentiment but I'm not going to stop voting my top scum-read out of pity. I don't think he himself wants pity, anyway.
And I very much disagree with letting him live because you want to lynch some other scum first or because he could be town and lynching him would be mean.
1) Lynch order matters infinitely less than simply lynching scum. Unless you have inside knowledge or you are a Mafia goddess, you are putting the cart a mile ahead of the horse by deciding he isn't worth executing now even if scum.
2) He *IS* the best lynch for POE-building. Maybe that wasn't the case by page 4, but a lot has happened since then and most players have taken a stance for or against him. The only other player who is a good lynch for POE-building is myself, and the best thing my flip will do is force Highroller back into relevancy (sorry about the random jab HR but it's true).
3) He could be town. The same goes for everyone else. See above with regards to pitying him.
I don't blame you for voting me, and your reasons for letting CC live are noble, but you are mistaken about a lot of things.
Going to read CC to see if I strongly disagree with his yeet. I suspect I am not going to strongly feel anything, but we'll see.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Don't know if this is enough to bother fighting this yeet/looking for someone else.
I'll elaborate in a minute.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Initial thoughts: I think nothing of the supposed claims and posting restrictions, or whatever is going on there. I don't think anything can be gleaned from that. I think the early pile on ZDS was a bit unwarranted, and subsequently a bit sus. I'm also not a fan of of Prophylaxis calling attention to low posters so early. Seems like planting seeds early to justify votes later.
These opinions are entirely safe and unremarkable. Which, I don't have much issue with. It was the very beginning of the game. So, I can see it through the lens of stream of consciousness/random thoughts.
ZDS didn't like it though, and immediately votes CC for it.
Quote from ZDS »
These are vague and safe non-stances ("the early pile on ZDS was a bit unwarranted", "not a fan of Prophylaxis calling attention to low posters so early"), which he turns into potential votes later on ("subsequently a bit sus", "planting seeds early to justify votes later").
And no the irony of accusing him of doing what he's accusing Proph of doing is not lost on me. But there's my second issue with this post: whereas Proph is experimenting by looking for lurkers too early and is ******* up as a result, CC hides carefully in a dark corner and seems to mostly focus on not ******* up. To bring back the digestive track, Proph had guts, CC has none.
And, again, this is like, fine? It's not much of a case, and CC only had one post, but you don't need much of a case to vote someone early. Neither of these on their own would move the dial for me either way. The follow-up is more interesting.
CC immediately counter-votes ZDS, and that's where I get my first
Because his reasoning for the counter-vote is: I disagree with your assessment of my statements. ZDS says my statements are "vague and safe non-stances" but actually they are real stances. ZDS says my suspicion of unjustified bandwagon voters is worse then Proph's unjustified suspicion of low posters, but actually my suspicion is more reasonable. And this translates to a hard vote ZDS.
Which it really shouldn't have. Because what ZDS said was barely a case at all. It was like a gut first impression, and nothing he said was wrong. CC's statements were mostly safe and unsurprising. This vote ought not to have ruffled so many feathers I wouldn't think.
And then, CC seemingly tries to turn it into something else entirely. When he is explaining the vote for ZDS (and why it isn't just an OMGUS vote, I guess) he tries to say that his reason for voting was because ZDS was being "inconsistent." i.e. ZDS said that I had taken a non-stance, but actually I took a real stance, so there.
That is not an inconsistency though, that is at best a difference of opinion.
CC says:
Quote from CC »
And the reason for my vote is that his justification for voting me doesn't make sense. The fact that he didn't respond to my counter points solidifies this feeling.
Except CC really made no "counter points" except to say "you're wrong."
There's a tiny bit more back and forth with ZDS going:
Quote from ZDS »
I admit CC's "obviously rushed early wagon is bad" and "super early lurker hunting is bad" are technically stances. So is "lynching town is bad". That's how shallow these are. I refuse to consider these actual stances. They are non-stances.
And CC responding:
Quote from CC »
So they are stances except that they aren't stances. Got it.
Also "lynching town is bad" is not a tell. Bandwagoning and throwing broad accusations are. You're comparison does not hold up. You are clearly inventing reasons to vote for me.
And this exchange just looks better for ZDS, because what he is saying is completely fair, and CC is just blowing up over nothing and (apparently) feels like ZDS is "inventing" reasons to vote for him, which just is not the case.
And at this point I'm like, huh, maybe this yeet is genuinely good.
But after this, as of post #302 CC starts to get much better.
When he starts to look at other people and give some other opinions. He did a halfway decent analysis of DKing (not that I necessarily agree with the conclusion that DK was too hedgy and that this shows a "reluctant" mindset, but I like that he did it at all). And made some other points about Jackrito.
So now I'm trying to decide if the early game was Town-CC shaking off some rust and reacting poorly to an early vote, or Scum-CC who starting off flailing a bit, but is now reeling it in and focusing.
And yes, I know time is quickly running out here, but there you have it.
CC, if you are around, I would suggest a claim, because at this moment I would probably vote you rather than not yeet anyone. (Lord, I'm not sure of this new terminology. Is there something better than "yeet" that isn't "lynch?"
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Oh, is yeet a replace for lynch because lynch is considered probo these days? That makes since, I didn't pick up on that.
I totally thought we had more time. But I guess this is happening now. Anyway...I'm Doc(the dwarf, not the role) and I am a friendly neighbor. Each night I can target a player and that player will be informed that I am town.
I've got more to say, but I wanted to get that out first.
CC, if you are around, I would suggest a claim, because at this moment I would probably vote you rather than not yeet anyone. (Lord, I'm not sure of this new terminology. Is there something better than "yeet" that isn't "lynch?"
same re CC.
also i use "chop" sometimes, idk.
also i feel like ZDS keeps making these points that my gut response is "no that's not right!!" and then i step back and am like "no, okay, that makes sense". his point about not flipping Vaimes today bc my analysis has his alignment as somewhat dependent on CC's flip is an example. i wanna be like "what, that wasn't an associative case!!" but it totally was, just a non-association. anyway i won't be voting ZDS today, i think i would only have this gut response from genuine solving.
Oh, is yeet a replace for lynch because lynch is considered probo these days? That makes since, I didn't pick up on that.
I totally thought we had more time. But I guess this is happening now. Anyway...I'm Doc(the dwarf, not the role) and I am a friendly neighbor. Each night I can target a player and that player will be informed that I am town.
I've got more to say, but I wanted to get that out first.
I have to say, I'm not sure I've ever heard of this role before. Obviously it's self-confirming, which makes it a rather convenient claim, but.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm voting CC because I think he's scum and he's my strongest scum-read (above JoeTerry). It's a fact that his flip will influence my other reads, including and perhaps especially the one on JoeTerry.
Recently I have been interacting with JoeTerry because he was posting and interacting back. CC doesn't post that often so it's hard to interact with him.
With regards to cutting CC some slack for his come back, I understand the sentiment but I'm not going to stop voting my top scum-read out of pity. I don't think he himself wants pity, anyway.
And I very much disagree with letting him live because you want to lynch some other scum first or because he could be town and lynching him would be mean.
1) Lynch order matters infinitely less than simply lynching scum. Unless you have inside knowledge or you are a Mafia goddess, you are putting the cart a mile ahead of the horse by deciding he isn't worth executing now even if scum.
2) He *IS* the best lynch for POE-building. Maybe that wasn't the case by page 4, but a lot has happened since then and most players have taken a stance for or against him. The only other player who is a good lynch for POE-building is myself, and the best thing my flip will do is force Highroller back into relevancy (sorry about the random jab HR but it's true).
3) He could be town. The same goes for everyone else. See above with regards to pitying him.
I don't blame you for voting me, and your reasons for letting CC live are noble, but you are mistaken about a lot of things.
Is not about being noble here or having pity, is cold analysis over a slot who prooved for me that he may bring a plus to the game if villager.
Maybe i said it wrong, my idea is not pity at all
The bolded - if you are villager and i am wrong how come you don't blame me?
Oh, is yeet a replace for lynch because lynch is considered probo these days? That makes since, I didn't pick up on that.
I totally thought we had more time. But I guess this is happening now. Anyway...I'm Doc(the dwarf, not the role) and I am a friendly neighbor. Each night I can target a player and that player will be informed that I am town.
I've got more to say, but I wanted to get that out first.
Do you start a private convo with the player you are targeting?
he gets "no particular vibe one way or the other" but then settles on "leaning town".
This is blatant misrepresentation.
Quote from »
Grapefruit21: I don't get any particular vibe from his posts one way or the other, but I generally agree with his reads. The one exception being his town read of ZDS. Leaning town read.
I was leaning town because I agreed with his reads, which is what I stated. But then you quoted me and just leave that part out.
he gets "no particular vibe one way or the other" but then settles on "leaning town".
This is blatant misrepresentation.
Quote from »
Grapefruit21: I don't get any particular vibe from his posts one way or the other, but I generally agree with his reads. The one exception being his town read of ZDS. Leaning town read.
I was leaning town because I agreed with his reads, which is what I stated. But then you quoted me and just leave that part out.
is agreeing with his reads an essential part of your townread of grapefruit? why?
On the one hand, it is self-confirming. What's he going to do tomorrow, it's either (1) another player "confirms" him, and thus ties himself to CC should either of them die, and he has to keep doing this every day, or (2) He goes "oops, I targeted the person who died." In which case isn't it kind of auto-lynch territory?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
On the other hand, I'm trying to imagine scenarios where letting him string this out can burn us if he's scum. This is a mini, there won't be many nights.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
well turns out im gonna be busy for the next hour or 2 so vote: cropcircles
So you vote a player who can self resolve by his night action?
Not entirely self-resolving, is it?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
There's no contradiction in explaining why I'm interpreting two superficially similar actions differently .
Also, I don't follow how you can say this is your main gripe with my vote. #102 contained two arguments: That what I called vague non-stances are neither vague nor not-stances (I'll call this "the yes-stance argument"), and that your multi-targetted accusation was more legitimate than Proph's multi-targetted accusation (I'll call this the "legitimate scattershot" argument).
Then there was #128 which focused only on the yes-stance argument, which became the main thing we argued about. The legitimate scattershot argument disappeared until... actually it hasn't resurfaced yet. The argument you just brought up is brand new.
It's not two arguments. It's the same argument. That you were accusing me of the same thing that I was accusing Proph, but with a poor explanation for why my post was worse than proph's. There's no point in rehashing this stuff, but you're breaking my argument up and trying to say they're are separate. They are not.
Quote from ZDS »
Whereas the legitimate scattershot argument was about how different and better than Prophylaxis you were, your new argument is that I contradicted myself by pointing out the similarity between you and Proph.
This is semantic bull. They are similar which is important for comparison, but different because my "scattershot" was for legitimate tells whereas proph's was not. But you jumped on mine instead of prophs. This is one argument. I have not changed my stance on this.
The "yes-stance" argument comes from me trying to demonstrate that you're reasons for targeting me instead of proph don't make sense. It it still part of the same argument.
I question the strength and veracity of your scum-read on me when you can't correctly remember why you are scum-reading me in the first place, other than a vague sense of trying to find and exploit flaws in the case I made.
he gets "no particular vibe one way or the other" but then settles on "leaning town".
This is blatant misrepresentation.
Quote from »
Grapefruit21: I don't get any particular vibe from his posts one way or the other, but I generally agree with his reads. The one exception being his town read of ZDS. Leaning town read.
I was leaning town because I agreed with his reads, which is what I stated. But then you quoted me and just leave that part out.
Was that that only "more" you actually had to say?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Axelrod i didn't see your vote in the last VC andi didn't observe you voting, correct me if i am wrong.
Please vote
You're not wrong.
Who should I vote for?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Axelrod i didn't see your vote in the last VC andi didn't observe you voting, correct me if i am wrong.
Please vote
You're not wrong.
Who should I vote for?
one of your scum reads.
How about one of yours? Who should I vote for?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I see relatively low downside to give a night for CC to confirm his friendly neighbor role? I'm still pretty uncomfortable with his behavior but if he gets the FN off then being able to clear him is pretty deec
Also kinda explains why he was acting kinda weird for most of the day
I see relatively low downside to give a night for CC to confirm his friendly neighbor role? I'm still pretty uncomfortable with his behavior but if he gets the FN off then being able to clear him is pretty deec
Also kinda explains why he was acting kinda weird for most of the day
Unvote vote TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Cfd? Not comfortable with ZDS wagon
What are you doing? Day ends in half an hour.
You know what? Actually, this is fine, because now ZDS has to be the lynch. There's no other path to getting there.
Well, I'll Second the request, for what that's worth.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Because his reasoning for the counter-vote is: I disagree with your assessment of my statements. ZDS says my statements are "vague and safe non-stances" but actually they are real stances. ZDS says my suspicion of unjustified bandwagon voters is worse then Proph's unjustified suspicion of low posters, but actually my suspicion is more reasonable. And this translates to a hard vote ZDS.
Which it really shouldn't have. Because what ZDS said was barely a case at all. It was like a gut first impression, and nothing he said was wrong. CC's statements were mostly safe and unsurprising. This vote ought not to have ruffled so many feathers I wouldn't think.
So ZDS has a gut first impression and votes on it and that's fine, but I have a first impression and vote on it and that's bad? Is that just because I voted for the person who was voting me?
Quote from Axelrod »
And then, CC seemingly tries to turn it into something else entirely. When he is explaining the vote for ZDS (and why it isn't just an OMGUS vote, I guess) he tries to say that his reason for voting was because ZDS was being "inconsistent." i.e. ZDS said that I had taken a non-stance, but actually I took a real stance, so there.
That is not an inconsistency though, that is at best a difference of opinion.
The inconsistency I'm referring to is him pushing against me for pushing against proph for the same reason I was pushing against proph with a poor explanation of why my post was worse. We can disagree about the definition of the word "inconsistency," but I have not tried to change what this is about.
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he gets "no particular vibe one way or the other" but then settles on "leaning town".
proph asks grapefruit to check into cropcircles, gf's like "i dont know her". then gf does iso CC and comes back like "I'm not moved in any direction. He's been under pressure since the jump and hasn't done much" which kind of surprises me. i feel like if you have a read that someone hasn't done much under pressure, that's gotta mean something. it'd be a reason to start leaning wolf, i'd think. idk.
he's also like "this post of cc's feels townie" and from what i can see it's just a random paragraph that i can't make any particular alignment read off of.
grapefruit, can you walk me thru your thinking on why this paragraph is more likely to come from town?
conclusion: 7.2/10 compatible! they each seem pretty hesitant to express thoughts about each other. they each settle on weak townreads based on ??. are they compatible? yeah, moderately. no smoking guns but there's nothing indicating otherwise.
i'd like to stress: the purpose of this analysis is to see whether cc and gf are compatible as partners, in order to see if the world i'm starting to piece together in my mind is internally consistent. it's not, in itself, evidence that any of the behavior indicated here is particularly scummy.
Ok, just went back and reread CC's recap posts. He didn't just omit Vaimes originally, he also omitted Highroller. Noted. He does have some interactions with Vaimes, but they don't bat a suspicious eye at all, mostly just "Hey Vaimes, what do you think about this?" kind of stuff.
Cross referencing with Vaimes ISO...
Vaimes declares Crop Circles a designated misyeet, despite several players calling CC a "Legend". Also doesn't feel like he needs to towncase CC at all. He does put some heat on Highroller early, but then shifts him decidedly to the town pool. Looking back at some Vaimes and Highroller exchanges, I don't think Highroller is on the same team as Vaimes because of the Bird confusion. Vaimes said "Since when is Bird a roll" apparently missing his claim, which I don't think happens if they are scum buddies.
Bah, I don't know. Vaimes ISO felt really light also. I will vote CC or Vaimes today. I'm going to go back through each of those players again and pick one.
oop missed this post in the GF iso. ok that's some sticking to the read. this is the first post between the two (cc/gf) that would remotely surprise me coming from a scum partner. cut .4 off that score, 6.8/10.
hell yeah, you got it
I'm fine with this vote:
VOTE: CropCircles42
Change my mind Vaimes.
casual joking around, a good sign
a poke
nothing, just a misunderstanding
huh, this one's weird. implies that cc has thoughts but just isn't posting them. odd.
oh okay, cc thought he saw a softclaim in there and now is doubting that. "leaning town". those leans.
overall, cc appears pretty comfortable posting thoughts about vaimes.
hokay time to stretch the ol ctrl+f muscles and get lookin at someone with a 5-page iso
parry and thrust
light townreads, light townreads everywhere
describing CC as "a misyeet scum need" feels... not w/w to me.
"designated misyeet", hm. "the wagon's too easy" i think comes from scum more often actually. idk if it comes from scum *about* scum tho.
another post saying "cc is a villager" but not actively defending him.
man now he's resigned to CC dying, who he thinks is a villager, but has no interest in defending.
okay, wow. what a weird interactive analysis that was. vaimes seems to have a consistent townread on cc, throughout the game, seems to believe that the cc wagon is a "misyeet", seems to think it's inevitable, but seems to spend no effort actually convincing people not to chop cc.
1) vaimes and cc are probably not partners. i'm gonna say 2.1/10 compatibility. cc feels relaxed and comfortable interacting with vaimes, and i think if vaimes saw a partner going down, he'd try to do something more active about it.
2) vote: Vaimes. i recommend you read the spoiler of his posts quoted above tbh. this whole "cc is town but i cba to defend him from being mischopped" vibe is no bueno.
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@Silver FYI, this is the kind of stance I expect from someone scumreading much of the CC wagon.
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The paragraph in question is the exact same paragraph CC self-quoted in his last post to accuse me. I don't know what to make of it but I can't help notice the coincidence.
Re: Above: Based on your analysis Vaimes is only scummy if CC is town and he's washing his hands off that wagon, so I think it's too early to follow that path without a CC flip. Moreover, even if CC flips town, Vaimes is the type who often can't be arsed as either alignment.
I do think he should answer the part about letting a town read die, but I don't have high expectations for a meaningful answer.
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@JoeTerry Correct the following sentence if I'm wrong: Your analysis of CC-Vaimes interactions came up inconclusive and your vote went to the individually scummier one, who happened to be CC, but you could still be swayed to vote Vaimes instead. I struggled to keep up in Voldemort, my play in Matter (town) and Prison Break II (scum) is more representative.
So I voted CC. I’m a bit tired of repeating myself. I think my posts are pretty easy to follow, so try harder?
Also, I ended up getting five wins in my sealed event with a what I thought was a pretty weak BW cleric build.
@Vaimes while catching up this is the second self meta refference, one was the Lagoon scum game and this is the second from what i've read (in my post 462 above)
Can you quote them both?
You have had Vaimes and CC as your top scumspects since your re-read, but after that you have made posts that imply you changed your mind (unvoting CC, finding the CC-Vaimes interactions inconclusive) AND made posts that imply you have *not* changed your mind, *without* ever making it clear if and how your stance on the two had progressed since the re-read.
It's confusing. It's hard to tell whether you are genuinely reconsidering your tunnel or merely pretending to do so. Do you get that?
Part of the reason I'm tunneling you is because I can't make sense of your (lack of) progression, and because of the timing of unvoting then re-voting CC. I have a much easier time seeing you as a scumbuddy flip-flopping between bussing and not bussing and bussing again.
Of course if CC flips town, that's moot. If CC flips scum, I want to understand your thought process in case you aren't actually his partner.
----
In Prison Block II Vaimes and I were scumbuddies, and I thoroughly threw him under the bus.
This is the case I wrote, with the benefits of inside knowledge.
To summarise it, Vaimes in that game:
— Posted A LOT of meaningless fluff. Seriously, 90% of his posts were completely dispensable.
— Threw opinions and votes like he was playing darts blindfolded.
— Conveniently changed his mind in order to bandwagon town.
— Barely ever applied pressure to anyone.
Other than maybe the last point, this has not been the current Vaimes at all. It's possible of course he has improved his scum game a lot since then, but nevertheless he is solidly town by comparison.
That was mostly @JoeTerry and @cayvie, or @anyone interested.
CropCircles42 (4): ZeDorkSlipeur, Prophylaxis, Ampharos, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
ZeDorkSlipeur (3): Highroller, Silvercrys3467, CropCircles42
Vaimes (1): cayvie
Cayvie (1): Grapefruit21
Prophylaxis (1): xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (1): Vaimes
Not voting: Axelrod
Deadline is today, 7pm GMT+1; 6 hours, 40 minutes from this post.
I read ZDS's post above and I dislike the infolynch he is implying by 'Of course if CC flips town, that's moot. If CC flips scum, I want to understand your thought process in case you aren't actually his partner.'.
I know town have to vote the player who they think looks like scum, ZDS in tunneling JoeTerry but he is voting CC and this looks odd for me.
Vote: ZeDorkSlipeur
I don't really care what AI has CC right now. Reason: he comes after a huge break and plays completely disconnected and he is not similar with his old self from what i understood. We have 3 mafia, let's say CC is mafia, order of lynches matters and i don't think he is the best lynch for town from any Poe we can construct including him. IF he is not, however, lynching him day 1 is the ugliest thing that townies can do in a game. I say we better give him the chance to play one day more and who survive will decide in the next day if he is real scum or not.
Also i still trust DKs read on Proph, especially because his wagon doesn't have traction.
Recently I have been interacting with JoeTerry because he was posting and interacting back. CC doesn't post that often so it's hard to interact with him.
With regards to cutting CC some slack for his come back, I understand the sentiment but I'm not going to stop voting my top scum-read out of pity. I don't think he himself wants pity, anyway.
And I very much disagree with letting him live because you want to lynch some other scum first or because he could be town and lynching him would be mean.
1) Lynch order matters infinitely less than simply lynching scum. Unless you have inside knowledge or you are a Mafia goddess, you are putting the cart a mile ahead of the horse by deciding he isn't worth executing now even if scum.
2) He *IS* the best lynch for POE-building. Maybe that wasn't the case by page 4, but a lot has happened since then and most players have taken a stance for or against him. The only other player who is a good lynch for POE-building is myself, and the best thing my flip will do is force Highroller back into relevancy (sorry about the random jab HR but it's true).
3) He could be town. The same goes for everyone else. See above with regards to pitying him.
I don't blame you for voting me, and your reasons for letting CC live are noble, but you are mistaken about a lot of things.
Don't know if this is enough to bother fighting this yeet/looking for someone else.
I'll elaborate in a minute.
These opinions are entirely safe and unremarkable. Which, I don't have much issue with. It was the very beginning of the game. So, I can see it through the lens of stream of consciousness/random thoughts.
ZDS didn't like it though, and immediately votes CC for it. And, again, this is like, fine? It's not much of a case, and CC only had one post, but you don't need much of a case to vote someone early. Neither of these on their own would move the dial for me either way. The follow-up is more interesting.
CC immediately counter-votes ZDS, and that's where I get my first
Because his reasoning for the counter-vote is: I disagree with your assessment of my statements. ZDS says my statements are "vague and safe non-stances" but actually they are real stances. ZDS says my suspicion of unjustified bandwagon voters is worse then Proph's unjustified suspicion of low posters, but actually my suspicion is more reasonable. And this translates to a hard vote ZDS.
Which it really shouldn't have. Because what ZDS said was barely a case at all. It was like a gut first impression, and nothing he said was wrong. CC's statements were mostly safe and unsurprising. This vote ought not to have ruffled so many feathers I wouldn't think.
And then, CC seemingly tries to turn it into something else entirely. When he is explaining the vote for ZDS (and why it isn't just an OMGUS vote, I guess) he tries to say that his reason for voting was because ZDS was being "inconsistent." i.e. ZDS said that I had taken a non-stance, but actually I took a real stance, so there.
That is not an inconsistency though, that is at best a difference of opinion.
CC says: Except CC really made no "counter points" except to say "you're wrong."
There's a tiny bit more back and forth with ZDS going: And CC responding: And this exchange just looks better for ZDS, because what he is saying is completely fair, and CC is just blowing up over nothing and (apparently) feels like ZDS is "inventing" reasons to vote for him, which just is not the case.
And at this point I'm like, huh, maybe this yeet is genuinely good.
But after this, as of post #302 CC starts to get much better.
When he starts to look at other people and give some other opinions. He did a halfway decent analysis of DKing (not that I necessarily agree with the conclusion that DK was too hedgy and that this shows a "reluctant" mindset, but I like that he did it at all). And made some other points about Jackrito.
So now I'm trying to decide if the early game was Town-CC shaking off some rust and reacting poorly to an early vote, or Scum-CC who starting off flailing a bit, but is now reeling it in and focusing.
And yes, I know time is quickly running out here, but there you have it.
CC, if you are around, I would suggest a claim, because at this moment I would probably vote you rather than not yeet anyone. (Lord, I'm not sure of this new terminology. Is there something better than "yeet" that isn't "lynch?"
I totally thought we had more time. But I guess this is happening now. Anyway...I'm Doc(the dwarf, not the role) and I am a friendly neighbor. Each night I can target a player and that player will be informed that I am town.
I've got more to say, but I wanted to get that out first.
same re CC.
also i use "chop" sometimes, idk.
also i feel like ZDS keeps making these points that my gut response is "no that's not right!!" and then i step back and am like "no, okay, that makes sense". his point about not flipping Vaimes today bc my analysis has his alignment as somewhat dependent on CC's flip is an example. i wanna be like "what, that wasn't an associative case!!" but it totally was, just a non-association. anyway i won't be voting ZDS today, i think i would only have this gut response from genuine solving.
Is not about being noble here or having pity, is cold analysis over a slot who prooved for me that he may bring a plus to the game if villager.
Maybe i said it wrong, my idea is not pity at all
The bolded - if you are villager and i am wrong how come you don't blame me?
Do you start a private convo with the player you are targeting?
I was leaning town because I agreed with his reads, which is what I stated. But then you quoted me and just leave that part out.
is agreeing with his reads an essential part of your townread of grapefruit? why?
Got it.
For who is curious i think the claim stands.
So you vote a player who can self resolve by his night action?
Please vote
This is semantic bull. They are similar which is important for comparison, but different because my "scattershot" was for legitimate tells whereas proph's was not. But you jumped on mine instead of prophs. This is one argument. I have not changed my stance on this.
The "yes-stance" argument comes from me trying to demonstrate that you're reasons for targeting me instead of proph don't make sense. It it still part of the same argument.
Please.
Who should I vote for?
ZDS, obviously.
I see relatively low downside to give a night for CC to confirm his friendly neighbor role? I'm still pretty uncomfortable with his behavior but if he gets the FN off then being able to clear him is pretty deec
Also kinda explains why he was acting kinda weird for most of the day
Unvote
vote TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Cfd? Not comfortable with ZDS wagon
You know what? Actually, this is fine, because now ZDS has to be the lynch. There's no other path to getting there.
The inconsistency I'm referring to is him pushing against me for pushing against proph for the same reason I was pushing against proph with a poor explanation of why my post was worse. We can disagree about the definition of the word "inconsistency," but I have not tried to change what this is about.