Thanks Grape for the kind words. I always try to make collaboration the most important part of my playstyle, because I think it's more important to have the town communicate clearly and work together rather than focus too much on reads accuracy.
Points noted on CC, did not consider that. Can you answer the other two questions I had in that post? (what exactly you disagree on re Silver and why you liked JT's call out of Rodemy)
I see JT responded to me, I'll take a look at that after work hopefully
At the time Terry being so low, ZDS being so low, Rod and DK being so high were the main things.
Because it would have been really easy to ignore that vote by Rod due to the posting restriction and Rod's general reputation. Digging deeper shows a nice curiosity.
I'm skipping ZDS, obviously. I still think he is the most likely to be scum for reasons previously stated. I'm also not posting any thoughts on Vaimes and Highroller. I wrote "something about a bird" in my notes and I think that pretty much sums it up.
Silver: I get generally good vibes from his posts. One thing that stuck out to me was his coy unjustified vote to see if anyone called him on it. Seems more like a townie type of poking around. Reading town.
Rodemy: He pushed on ZDS early, which I like. Hasn't really done much else, but with valid reason. No read.
Prophylaxis: His early lurker push looked like scum trying to look like they are contributing while not adding anything of value, but that's a moot point given both his level of contribution and his push to get others to contribute. Reading town.
Grapefruit21: I don't get any particular vibe from his posts one way or the other, but I generally agree with his reads. The one exception being his town read of ZDS. Leaning town read.
Axelrod: Not getting anything one way or the other. One thing I remember about Ax is that I could never read him, so this is pretty unsurprising. No read.
JoeTerry: His posting of notes is suspect to me. While there are some opinions in there, it's buried in a lot of meaningless recap. When I write notes, I put them in a file so they're easy to add to or edit as I go. That makes sense to me. I don't see what the value of posting them in the thread unless you just want to make sure everyone else knows that you're taking notes. Seems to be prioritizing appearances over functionality or efficiency.
Also that last bit about getting tunneled seems pretty defeatist and prematurely defensive. "Hope that helps, I doubt it will because you already seem like you're tunneled. It's almost a sure thing that anyone who posts anything substantial like I did to catch up, will be attacked because it's content, content that people can like or dislike."
Plenty of people are posting content and not taking heat for it. Seems like he's setting up a "this always happens to me" defense while preemptively trying to discredit anyone who would question him.
That being said, if he does this every game as he says he does than I guess it's a non-tell. It still feels suspect to me, but I'll give it a pass for now. Reading as mildly questionable.
Anyway, I'm sticking with my vote on Proph for now.
Main takeaways:
1) Holding onto my earlier stance that his "Poppin Bottles Theory" post was too tryhard.
2) He has emphasized one too many times that he's not familiar with the flavor (see more below).
3) He seems to be asking a lot of softball questions, and I haven't seen much follow-up.
4) He is doing a fair amount of sucking up to the long-time vets (ZDS, CC mostly)
5) Weird interactions with Grape on multiple levels. His defense of me and the posting gimmick was... odd?... especially since no one has been listening to Grape. Also, I found it curious he asked if he had ever seen scum!Grape, when Grape was scum in the most recent game Proph hosted.
I don't agree with his read of Proph, which is fine. But a couple of these don't really seem like tells. I don't see the alleged "sucking up" as telling one way or the other. I don't see how him being unfamiliar with the flavor is anything. I also don't think I would qualify his questions as softball. This list reads as being very contrived.
Other players of note:
1. ZDS - didn't love his RVS vote on Grape (which actually looked serious to me), he's been over-zealous in explaining/defending his "gutsy" classification of Rodemy's early posts, way too early vanilla claim, seems to be way too wrapped up in flavor (Proph is going out of his way to ignore stuff like this by saying he's "unfamiliar"). I played in a game with scum!ZDS several years ago (Gatecrash), but his old account must have been deleted because his posts no longer exist in that thread and I'm a little miffed I can't do any comparisons.
2. Jackrito - more or less /barning Vaimes here. Also, his use of the word "gutsy" in reference to Rodemy in 92 pings just a bit, and his defense of Proph in 174 is bad (but my read on Proph could be clouding my judgment there).
3. Grapefruit - Weird interactions with Proph, poorly articulated defense of Highroller on page 2 (Vaimes hit him with a good question in 90). I may be personally biased on this though since he tried pushing me D1 for bad reasons in Modern when he was scum and I was town, and a little bit of that is mirrored here (namely downplaying the read as "weak").
4. Silver - I've only played with him once, but he seems really low presence compared to when he was town in Seasons. That's kinda all I have to say, though.
Joe Terry almost makes the list because of the RVS self-vote and the super weird Trump stuff, but he has one specific post that is making me hesitant that I'm not going to talk about right now for reasons.
Every one of these statements comes with a "but" or a "though" qualifier. It's like he's hedging his bets, laying the groundwork to backpedal later if he gets push back. The whole post feels like that. This is indicative of a reluctant mindset. Leaning scum read.
I agree that low posters tend to be scum in most cases, but I did not think of you the type to scum hunt that way normally you towncore up and work backwards.
But more recently he says:
Quote from Jackrito »
DK and JT are too low content to be valid trains just yet imo.
So I noticed this before remembering that Vaimes had pointed out similar contradictions, in posts #200 and #222. It's really hard to read Jack's opinions as genuine when he keeps contradicting himself like this.
I also don't like him painting me as "lost and scared." I mean, I know I'm neither of these things and he doesn't site any examples, so it's a little baffling. I'm curious if anyone else is getting that impression from me, because from my perspective it seems like a pretty obviously made up read.
Also, this stuck out:
Quote from Jackrito »
ZDS is in my town pile because of how much better he came off compared to CC if CC flips town I review him. possible they is bussing happening though because both are in bad spots now I think about it their engangement with each other just feels off to a degree.
Tying our alignments together like this looks like he's setting up to turn on ZDS once I turn flip town. Of course this is completely moot if I'm right about ZDS, but it is still worth noting.
Reading as questionable.
------------------------------
At this point, I'm putting DK, JoeTerry, and Jack (in that order) as my most suspicious after ZDS. I'm not abandoning the ZDS wagon, but we can always come back to it.
@CropCircles: I couldn't help but notice you didn't take much of a stance on Vaimes in your recent catch up post. Whatcha got on Vaimes?
PS I posted my notes in my recap. Yep, there were opinions in there too. I'm the most transparent villager ever. No secret notes here, you guys get to see all my notes.
Silver: so uhh, you don't agree/understand the central premise of zds's argument? (that cropcircles is a bad guy and deserves to be looked into more)
again, the intentionally vague thing makes it hard to figure out exactly what you're thinking, but do you have any thoughts on CC's 10 or so posts thus far? i see you have him as a null read but i don't recall you talking about him, skimming through your ISO
He's not saying "Silver you should read CropCircle's posts I think he's a wolf" he's saying "Silver, I think you're suspicious because you aren't town reading CropCircles who is being voted by all of your wolf suspects"
This is like, kind of why I'm continuing to wolf read you, too, the things you post just do not track with what I'm reading at all.
It's whatever the opposite of a mind meld is. A mind schism, maybe?
re: CC, I haven't really gotten anything from his posts so far, no.
I just want to say again that Proph "sucking up to vets" is a reason to scum read him is ludicrous. He is the most collabrative player I've ever had the pleasure to play with. Him trying to coordinate with people acknowledged as good players is exactly his MO regardless of alignment. And he's generally a nice guy so a bit of puffery isn't surprising because he values healthy game states.
There's being polite and encouraging teamwork, and then there's "Stan"-ing.
Can you elaborate exactly what you find "off" about him? Granted I haven't read his posts in extraordinary detail but he seems what I expect from ZDS - proactive, well-thought out, logical.
One of several examples of the self-confessed ZDS Stan-ing.
What, of any posts at this time, did you find ZDS was proactive, well-thought out, and logical? His salient contributions to the game were - and indeed still continue to be - claiming that Rodemy was gutsy on the basis of the flavor of a role ZDS thought was implied, despite the fact that the mod told us that the mafia have fake claims; and voting me on the grounds that he agreed with an argument made by Vaimes that Vaimes not only never made, but said the exact opposite of.
It comes off as excessive and phony. At best it is a myopia to what is actually going on in-game, and at worst a manipulation from a mafia intent on trying to come off as unassuming.
As I said before, I'm convinced that between ZDS and Proph, I'm being pranked by at least one.
i'm taking my sweet time reading these posts. savoring 'em. mafia's like a good bread pudding: savory, best enjoyed once in a while, will make you hate yourself if partaken in too often
i'm like midway down page 3, jotting down some stuff in between games of LoL
vaimes can be a townlean based on my general perception of vaimes as a player. i think vaimes falls into the archetype of a player who wants to post as a villager but needs to post as a wolf. i think some of his early antsyness (antsiness? spellcheck hates em both, maybe it's just not a word) about the pace of the game is mildly indicative of his village mindset, with the obvious caveat that that's not a particularly difficult thing to fake.
also leaning town on silvercrys, largely for how he responded to the early proph post that caused such a stir. he nailed the sweet spot of what i'll call "measured skepticism", where his reaction to proph looks like legitimate doubt - not a conspicuous underreaction, not a forced overreaction, but a legitimate natural questioning brought on by reading the posts. tl;dr villagery reaction
proph... dunno. i don't really have a huge issue with the popping bottles theory or whatever, at least not in a "is proph wolfing" sense. i am a little concerned with how calmly he defended himself; i realize that sounds a little unfair on its face, but it feels a bit unnatural for reasons i can't quite put my finger on. of course, proph's also just generally a decent dude and might play it like this as either alignment. probably need more time
highroller's posts seemed fine and i don't quite get vaimes going all in on him
##vote: CropCircles
i don't think the shade on proph is real - i think to look at that list and think "yeah proph's gonna point to this later when he votes a lowposter" is frankly absurd. and the series of posts i scrolled past to get to this textbox would seem to indicate a stronger scumread of jack than of the person he actually voted, and contain a Rule of 3 list as well
highroller-zds makes my eyes glaze over and they're probably both town. i actually had a light scumread on ZDS for some of the reasons highroller was bringing up until zds made the "whatever you'll see when i flip" post, which is like... so flippantly villagery. it's hard for wolves to deliver that line with the proper degree of confidence, especially given that zds was an actual wagon at that point and thus him flipping a very real possibility
in general this catchup is rough due to the sheer length of the posts involved; they're the sort of thing i'd prefer to see and parse in the moment, and going back over them in retrospect at 3 am isn't necessarily my idea of a good time. but alas.
i'm going to call JT a villager for the simple reason that he seems like a much better player here than he was in voldemort's throne room, where he was on an antitown faction. sorry joe.
uhh idk. grapefruit is not a player i'm going to worry about on d1. jack can die but jack also feels too easy... but i also yolovoted CC without realizing how big their wagon was, so maybe THAT's the wagon that's too easy.
actually hm. the way CC talks about jack is interesting. need to calibrate
also gonna ##unvote because i think i might have put CC to L-2? and i don't wanna do that when i just got here
the way CC handles DK and jack is really reminiscent of the way wolves handle a PoE villager vs a PoE wolf; one player (the wolf) is pushed with more legitimate reasoning, but then the other player (the villager) is the one that gets voted
what throws a monkey wrench into the whole thing is that the reason the reads on the wolf are more legitimate is usually because they're correct and a consequence of TMI; the issue here is that one of CC's points against jack involves jack wanting to tie CC and ZDS together in a world where CC is town.
this... reads as unnecessary shade, if CC and jack are partners. it's laying it on quite thick. it could be an effort to make them look unaligned, if CC thinks they're going down and wants to try to spew jack out of the PoE? but in a world where all wolves are confident in their survival abilities, or are posting just to produce Content, i'm not sure it's an interaction that comes naturally to teammates
so i guess that's a really convoluted way of saying "this looks w/w on the surface but i actually think it might not be"
i do need to figure out what it might mean for DK in a CC w/jack v world. gut instinct is to say villa... but then, why the weird discrepancy in who CC cases vs who CC votes? pure cognitive dissonance without agenda? CC legit not realizing that their points against jack sound a fair bit stronger than their points against DK? idk.
this post is probably at least 80% incomprehensible and i apologize
completely off the block for me today are vaimes, highroller, ZDS, silver, JT for "i townread them" reasons, and proph/grapefruit for "i don't actively scumread them and thus want them around longer to provide thoughts/let me figure them out" reasons
idk what it is about this website that encourages my lowercase stream-of-consciousness spam. i promise i'm capable of using proper grammar/syntax when i want to!
@Highroller what's the endgame of your insistence about stanning? That Proph must be scum trying to appease people? Or not even must just is scum indicative? Because yes trying to appease people can be a scum tactic but it's not strong on it's own. I'm not even really opposed to scum reading Proph here I just think this is weak reasoning. But I'm probably done talking about it because I think you're town and I'm not really interested in defending Proph here.
@Ampharos Hi! I'm curious what you think of my read of CC? I agree witb you tbat the Jack/DK thing is intriguing but I think the other stuff with ZDS points to him being town.
Interesting claim by Rodemy, and gutsy if he had any reason to believe flavour matters this game.
So, I was finally going to look closer at ZDS and I got hung up on this first post. Here are a lot of words.
I note that he is hinting at his own claim here, where he gives HR the "Critters unite!"
Normally, I would give fairly significant Town points for this, because - as scum - you usually don't want to lock yourself into a claim too early. And first post is as early as it gets. That's even less common. I also think this is still true even when the scum have been provided false claims. You just want to keep your options open as much as possible. A first post claim/hint does not have a lot of upside (except, perhaps, in the case of this specific argument). Who knows how you might get busted later. The risk/reward usually isn't there.
So that was one thing.
But then I thought more about the presence of scum "false claims" in this game to begin with; i.e. why do scum have/need them? The most obvious answer of course is that, thematically, the scum are all "evil/bad" characters. Like, the evil queen. Although I then thought, hmmm, there aren't actually a whole lot of evil/bad characters in the Snow White story, are there? You have the Queen. And then...maybe her Mirror? And then...who? You almost have to go to the Hunstman now as he's the closest, but he's not really a "bad" character, is he? And then I'm like, well, there were some scary looking trees when Snow White was running away in the woods? Can someone be a poisoned apple?
Who are the Mafia in this game and why do they need false claims?
Maybe they don't all need false claims then? Maybe it's just for the Queen? And/or her Mirror? Maybe one or more of the Mafia is a character who is not bad in the story and no false claim needed.
I think I would actually like to put out a call here, right now.
*If your role is an "Evil/Bad" character, but you are Town, I would like you to say so. Not who you are, only if evil/bad. If no one is, then I think that issue could be settled.*
The ultimate point here being that if one was a Mafia who knew, from the start, that they were going to have to use a false claim in this game, you might just decide on which one you were going to use from the beginning, and it does increase the odds you could possibly seed the claim in your very first post.
Longwinded way of saying that ZDS hinting his claim here isn't quite as much a + as it otherwise might be for me. But it is still something of a +
But then there was the second part of this where ZDS seems to give Rod some points for being "gutsy" with his own hinting. Almost like ZDS is thinking along the same lines as me, except we're coming to different conclusions. Like, ZDS claims he thought Rod was hinting at Huntsman, but the post he quoted to demonstrate this did not appear to me to be hinting at Hunstman at all, it looked more like the Queen if anyone. And that certainly would have been gutsy. Huntsman did not seem gutsy to me (that is, before I thought about the decided lack of bad characters in Snow White). And then the casual "if he had any reason to believe flavor matters," which also seemed off. If you were thinking flavor mattered yourself - which it seemed you were - why say this at all? And if you thought flavor mattered, and that Rod was claiming something suspicious due to flavor, then it seems like you might have wanted to follow up on that. In some way? But you don't, and apparently just read him as Town for it.
I don't have a definitive read on ZDS here. I'm still working on it, but I thought I would just post my thoughts as I go, and you can take them or leave them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I like Vaimes' 283, I don't agree with much of it but I see where he's coming from and I like his grumpiness.
--
I'm still very okay with Proph. Nevertheless, Stern Look of Disappointment: Proph for apparently thinking I FoSed Silver for not scumreading CC, which makes no sense if you read my previous post.
I'm not going to town read him just because there's probably a wolf voting him
I never said anything about a wolf.
Quote from 307 »
he's saying "Silver, I think you're suspicious because you aren't town reading CropCircles who is being voted by all of your wolf suspects"
That is what I'm saying. "A" wolf is nothing to write home about, "all" wolf suspects very much is.
If your confusion is genuine: I don't care how anyone reads CC as long as I understand how they got there in their own perspective. Vaimes and Grapefruit have town reads on CC and while I disagree with them, I understand their perspective on the matter and I agree to disagree. On the other hand I don't understand your perspective (or lack thereof).
--
I like how Axel is absolutely guiltless about his own uselessness. That opinion will change if he stays that way Day 2.
He made a long but still useless post just now. My opinion doesn't change.
--
Grapefruit has a different arguing style when defending (controversial) players and when going on the attack. When defending others, he has a sort of confidence-he's-right he doesn't have when attacking.
It could be a playstyle thing or a Day 1 thing, so I don't feel like pursuing him now, but it smells like inside information.
Jack doesn't point to what ZDS is doing differently this game,
Indeed, since it's CC's "posts and stance" that changed.
--
Jack should answer what exactly feels off about the CC-me interaction, and how one of our flips will influence his read of the other.
On the other hand I don't care much for his weird takes, such as finding Axel proactive. These strike me more as a result of skimming and not paying attention, which is sloppy play but not a tell either way.
--
I have a slight scum read on JoeTerry. His play could come from either side, but
Hope that helps, I doubt it will because you already seem like you're tunneled. It's almost a sure thing that anyone who posts anything substantial like I did to catch up, will be attacked because it's content, content that people can like or dislike. You can like or dislike what I said, but I'm putting myself out there and giving my thoughts, I'm not hiding. I literally do this almost every game I play in and every time I get heat for it as either alignment. It's not because I'm bad at this game or that I'm scummy, it's just content for people to pick at during an otherwise slowly moving game and I'm happy to provide the discourse.
is hard to take seriously. It's empty humble bragging ("woe is me, I always get heat from being such a great teamplayer"). I do agree with Amy he's playing better than in Voldemort, but it doesn't mean he's town: being co-SK in a 20 players game is a lot more pressure than being scum in a 12 players game.
CC didn't take my obvious bait. It just means that CC isn't obvious scum. Recalibrating...
Please tell us more.
--
I'm okay with CropCircles' re-read for the most part. He raises good points about Dkings. What I don't get is how "[he's] putting DK, JoeTerry, and Jack (in that order) as [his] most suspicious after [me]".
He gave DK a "Leaning scum read" so him being at the top (and getting the vote) is fine, but he gave JoeTerry a "Reading as mildly questionable" and Jack a "Reading as questionable". Based on CC's own words the order should be Dkings/Jack/JoeTerry, not Dkings/JoeTerry/Jack.
Before anyone says I'm nitpicking, we are talking about someone who analysed the use of the words "but" and "though". Words matter to CropCircles. By the way, did you know a long time ago he single-handedly got the whole community to treat the word "honestly" as a scum-tell? Words matter to CropCircles.
His salient contributions to the game were - and indeed still continue to be -
Starting the CC wagon. Does that not matter? Granted, most players voting him came to their own conclusions about him, typically as a result of catching-up/re-reading. So you could argue I merely happened to be first and the wagon would have happened regardless of my input.
At best it is a myopia to what is actually going on in-game,
when you haven't been relevant since page 2~3.
--
3am Amy is best Amy.
---------------------------
Hot take: the scum team is CropCircles/JoeTerry/Grapefruit.
CropCircles had mostly scummy content until now. JoeTerry went for the bus at first. CC put JT higher on his list than he should be as part of a distancing attempt. JT unvoted when realising they could move forward without bussing CC. Day Chat may have come into play.
Grape I'm less sure, but he fits very well in the "intentionally taking the opposite stances from his buddies so he doesn't get spewed" slot.
Everyone else including Silver and my null reads gets to be town by elimination.
I request that vote count simply be redone by hand rather than using the outdated vote counter
Will respond to stuff when I'm not on mobile, but ZDS - I meant something a little different when I asked Silver if he disagreed with your main argument. I'll explain more later
Just from a quick skim I like Amy's posts and content
On second thought, I’m gonna put out there that this is very similar to a long-winded post Axel made in some game or other, maybe Seasons? The one where fulcrum attacked him for making a post that sounded like it was designed to be read rather than actual freeflowing thoughts.
I think I’m gonna reel back the read to null for now.
The vote counter works fine tbh, I just used it in Matter and it's not like the site code has substantially changed; the only real quibble I have is that the voting rules should have been in the highlights but he did, in fact, request we follow the voting rules in the rules spoiler lol
Tl;Dr as long as you bold your vote and make sure the tags are snug ([b]vote person[/b] not [b] vote person [/b]) it ought to count barring host nickname errors
-------------
@ZDS: You acknowledged I don't believe my suspects are the exact wolf team; I'm not sure what the distinction is between that and "there's probably a wolf voting him" but there isn't one for me lol
-------------
I am parsing Amy's catch-up seems pretty solid though
About the votecounter: both missed votes have the same issue. Please don’t use line breaks in between a vote and an unvote. A space does work. Or simply don’t unvote
On second thought, I’m gonna put out there that this is very similar to a long-winded post Axel made in some game or other, maybe Seasons? The one where fulcrum attacked him for making a post that sounded like it was designed to be read rather than actual freeflowing thoughts.
I think I’m gonna reel back the read to null for now.
Jack and JT are still scum.
Wow... I disagree
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
At the time Terry being so low, ZDS being so low, Rod and DK being so high were the main things.
Because it would have been really easy to ignore that vote by Rod due to the posting restriction and Rod's general reputation. Digging deeper shows a nice curiosity.
I'm skipping ZDS, obviously. I still think he is the most likely to be scum for reasons previously stated. I'm also not posting any thoughts on Vaimes and Highroller. I wrote "something about a bird" in my notes and I think that pretty much sums it up.
Silver: I get generally good vibes from his posts. One thing that stuck out to me was his coy unjustified vote to see if anyone called him on it. Seems more like a townie type of poking around. Reading town.
Rodemy: He pushed on ZDS early, which I like. Hasn't really done much else, but with valid reason. No read.
Prophylaxis: His early lurker push looked like scum trying to look like they are contributing while not adding anything of value, but that's a moot point given both his level of contribution and his push to get others to contribute. Reading town.
Grapefruit21: I don't get any particular vibe from his posts one way or the other, but I generally agree with his reads. The one exception being his town read of ZDS. Leaning town read.
Axelrod: Not getting anything one way or the other. One thing I remember about Ax is that I could never read him, so this is pretty unsurprising. No read.
JoeTerry: His posting of notes is suspect to me. While there are some opinions in there, it's buried in a lot of meaningless recap. When I write notes, I put them in a file so they're easy to add to or edit as I go. That makes sense to me. I don't see what the value of posting them in the thread unless you just want to make sure everyone else knows that you're taking notes. Seems to be prioritizing appearances over functionality or efficiency.
Also that last bit about getting tunneled seems pretty defeatist and prematurely defensive. "Hope that helps, I doubt it will because you already seem like you're tunneled. It's almost a sure thing that anyone who posts anything substantial like I did to catch up, will be attacked because it's content, content that people can like or dislike."
Plenty of people are posting content and not taking heat for it. Seems like he's setting up a "this always happens to me" defense while preemptively trying to discredit anyone who would question him.
That being said, if he does this every game as he says he does than I guess it's a non-tell. It still feels suspect to me, but I'll give it a pass for now. Reading as mildly questionable.
Gonna split this into a 2nd post.
I don't agree with his read of Proph, which is fine. But a couple of these don't really seem like tells. I don't see the alleged "sucking up" as telling one way or the other. I don't see how him being unfamiliar with the flavor is anything. I also don't think I would qualify his questions as softball. This list reads as being very contrived.
Every one of these statements comes with a "but" or a "though" qualifier. It's like he's hedging his bets, laying the groundwork to backpedal later if he gets push back. The whole post feels like that. This is indicative of a reluctant mindset. Leaning scum read.
Early in the game he said this: But more recently he says: So I noticed this before remembering that Vaimes had pointed out similar contradictions, in posts #200 and #222. It's really hard to read Jack's opinions as genuine when he keeps contradicting himself like this.
I also don't like him painting me as "lost and scared." I mean, I know I'm neither of these things and he doesn't site any examples, so it's a little baffling. I'm curious if anyone else is getting that impression from me, because from my perspective it seems like a pretty obviously made up read.
Also, this stuck out: Tying our alignments together like this looks like he's setting up to turn on ZDS once I turn flip town. Of course this is completely moot if I'm right about ZDS, but it is still worth noting.
Reading as questionable.
------------------------------
At this point, I'm putting DK, JoeTerry, and Jack (in that order) as my most suspicious after ZDS. I'm not abandoning the ZDS wagon, but we can always come back to it.
Unvote, Vote Dkingsland967
Unvote
CC didn't take my obvious bait. It just means that CC isn't obvious scum. Recalibrating...
PS I posted my notes in my recap. Yep, there were opinions in there too. I'm the most transparent villager ever. No secret notes here, you guys get to see all my notes.
This is like, kind of why I'm continuing to wolf read you, too, the things you post just do not track with what I'm reading at all.
It's whatever the opposite of a mind meld is. A mind schism, maybe?
re: CC, I haven't really gotten anything from his posts so far, no.
haven't read yet, more later
Have we actually played together before Amy? (Also can I still call you Wals?)
if we have it's been long enough to no longer matter
also i would prefer you not c:
A prime example is this:
One of several examples of the self-confessed ZDS Stan-ing.
What, of any posts at this time, did you find ZDS was proactive, well-thought out, and logical? His salient contributions to the game were - and indeed still continue to be - claiming that Rodemy was gutsy on the basis of the flavor of a role ZDS thought was implied, despite the fact that the mod told us that the mafia have fake claims; and voting me on the grounds that he agreed with an argument made by Vaimes that Vaimes not only never made, but said the exact opposite of.
It comes off as excessive and phony. At best it is a myopia to what is actually going on in-game, and at worst a manipulation from a mafia intent on trying to come off as unassuming.
As I said before, I'm convinced that between ZDS and Proph, I'm being pranked by at least one.
i'm like midway down page 3, jotting down some stuff in between games of LoL
vaimes can be a townlean based on my general perception of vaimes as a player. i think vaimes falls into the archetype of a player who wants to post as a villager but needs to post as a wolf. i think some of his early antsyness (antsiness? spellcheck hates em both, maybe it's just not a word) about the pace of the game is mildly indicative of his village mindset, with the obvious caveat that that's not a particularly difficult thing to fake.
also leaning town on silvercrys, largely for how he responded to the early proph post that caused such a stir. he nailed the sweet spot of what i'll call "measured skepticism", where his reaction to proph looks like legitimate doubt - not a conspicuous underreaction, not a forced overreaction, but a legitimate natural questioning brought on by reading the posts. tl;dr villagery reaction
proph... dunno. i don't really have a huge issue with the popping bottles theory or whatever, at least not in a "is proph wolfing" sense. i am a little concerned with how calmly he defended himself; i realize that sounds a little unfair on its face, but it feels a bit unnatural for reasons i can't quite put my finger on. of course, proph's also just generally a decent dude and might play it like this as either alignment. probably need more time
highroller's posts seemed fine and i don't quite get vaimes going all in on him
##vote: CropCircles
i don't think the shade on proph is real - i think to look at that list and think "yeah proph's gonna point to this later when he votes a lowposter" is frankly absurd. and the series of posts i scrolled past to get to this textbox would seem to indicate a stronger scumread of jack than of the person he actually voted, and contain a Rule of 3 list as well
in general this catchup is rough due to the sheer length of the posts involved; they're the sort of thing i'd prefer to see and parse in the moment, and going back over them in retrospect at 3 am isn't necessarily my idea of a good time. but alas.
i'm going to call JT a villager for the simple reason that he seems like a much better player here than he was in voldemort's throne room, where he was on an antitown faction. sorry joe.
uhh idk. grapefruit is not a player i'm going to worry about on d1. jack can die but jack also feels too easy... but i also yolovoted CC without realizing how big their wagon was, so maybe THAT's the wagon that's too easy.
actually hm. the way CC talks about jack is interesting. need to calibrate
also gonna ##unvote because i think i might have put CC to L-2? and i don't wanna do that when i just got here
what throws a monkey wrench into the whole thing is that the reason the reads on the wolf are more legitimate is usually because they're correct and a consequence of TMI; the issue here is that one of CC's points against jack involves jack wanting to tie CC and ZDS together in a world where CC is town.
this... reads as unnecessary shade, if CC and jack are partners. it's laying it on quite thick. it could be an effort to make them look unaligned, if CC thinks they're going down and wants to try to spew jack out of the PoE? but in a world where all wolves are confident in their survival abilities, or are posting just to produce Content, i'm not sure it's an interaction that comes naturally to teammates
so i guess that's a really convoluted way of saying "this looks w/w on the surface but i actually think it might not be"
i do need to figure out what it might mean for DK in a CC w/jack v world. gut instinct is to say villa... but then, why the weird discrepancy in who CC cases vs who CC votes? pure cognitive dissonance without agenda? CC legit not realizing that their points against jack sound a fair bit stronger than their points against DK? idk.
this post is probably at least 80% incomprehensible and i apologize
leaves uh
CC, jack, DK, axel, i believe
not a terrible pool for a d1, i think
@Ampharos Hi! I'm curious what you think of my read of CC? I agree witb you tbat the Jack/DK thing is intriguing but I think the other stuff with ZDS points to him being town.
CropCircles42 - 2 (ZeDorkSlipeur, Jackrito)
ZeDorkSlipeur - 2 (Highroller, Silvercrys3467)
Jackrito - 2 (Grapefruit21, Vaimes)
Vaimes - 1 (Prophylaxis)
Grapefruit21 - 1 (dkingsland967)
dkingsland967 - 1 (CropCircles42)
Not Voting - 3 (Ampharos, Axelrod, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry)
The votecount is created with Eco's vote counter. If your vote isn't counted, please revote.
Day 1 Deadline is September 19, 7:00 AM GMT+1
Dkingsland967 has requested replacement.
Hi [future replacement]!
Also Proph: *memes, does not revote*
:thinking:
That was Vaimes not Proph my bad
I note that he is hinting at his own claim here, where he gives HR the "Critters unite!"
Normally, I would give fairly significant Town points for this, because - as scum - you usually don't want to lock yourself into a claim too early. And first post is as early as it gets. That's even less common. I also think this is still true even when the scum have been provided false claims. You just want to keep your options open as much as possible. A first post claim/hint does not have a lot of upside (except, perhaps, in the case of this specific argument). Who knows how you might get busted later. The risk/reward usually isn't there.
So that was one thing.
But then I thought more about the presence of scum "false claims" in this game to begin with; i.e. why do scum have/need them? The most obvious answer of course is that, thematically, the scum are all "evil/bad" characters. Like, the evil queen. Although I then thought, hmmm, there aren't actually a whole lot of evil/bad characters in the Snow White story, are there? You have the Queen. And then...maybe her Mirror? And then...who? You almost have to go to the Hunstman now as he's the closest, but he's not really a "bad" character, is he? And then I'm like, well, there were some scary looking trees when Snow White was running away in the woods? Can someone be a poisoned apple?
Who are the Mafia in this game and why do they need false claims?
Maybe they don't all need false claims then? Maybe it's just for the Queen? And/or her Mirror? Maybe one or more of the Mafia is a character who is not bad in the story and no false claim needed.
I think I would actually like to put out a call here, right now.
*If your role is an "Evil/Bad" character, but you are Town, I would like you to say so. Not who you are, only if evil/bad. If no one is, then I think that issue could be settled.*
The ultimate point here being that if one was a Mafia who knew, from the start, that they were going to have to use a false claim in this game, you might just decide on which one you were going to use from the beginning, and it does increase the odds you could possibly seed the claim in your very first post.
Longwinded way of saying that ZDS hinting his claim here isn't quite as much a + as it otherwise might be for me. But it is still something of a +
But then there was the second part of this where ZDS seems to give Rod some points for being "gutsy" with his own hinting. Almost like ZDS is thinking along the same lines as me, except we're coming to different conclusions. Like, ZDS claims he thought Rod was hinting at Huntsman, but the post he quoted to demonstrate this did not appear to me to be hinting at Hunstman at all, it looked more like the Queen if anyone. And that certainly would have been gutsy. Huntsman did not seem gutsy to me (that is, before I thought about the decided lack of bad characters in Snow White). And then the casual "if he had any reason to believe flavor matters," which also seemed off. If you were thinking flavor mattered yourself - which it seemed you were - why say this at all? And if you thought flavor mattered, and that Rod was claiming something suspicious due to flavor, then it seems like you might have wanted to follow up on that. In some way? But you don't, and apparently just read him as Town for it.
I don't have a definitive read on ZDS here. I'm still working on it, but I thought I would just post my thoughts as I go, and you can take them or leave them.
--
I'm still very okay with Proph. Nevertheless, Stern Look of Disappointment: Proph for apparently thinking I FoSed Silver for not scumreading CC, which makes no sense if you read my previous post.
Also Proph stop voting Vaimes?
--
I never said anything about a wolf.
That is what I'm saying. "A" wolf is nothing to write home about, "all" wolf suspects very much is.
If your confusion is genuine: I don't care how anyone reads CC as long as I understand how they got there in their own perspective. Vaimes and Grapefruit have town reads on CC and while I disagree with them, I understand their perspective on the matter and I agree to disagree. On the other hand I don't understand your perspective (or lack thereof).
--
I like how Axel is absolutely guiltless about his own uselessness. That opinion will change if he stays that way Day 2.
He made a long but still useless post just now. My opinion doesn't change.
--
Grapefruit has a different arguing style when defending (controversial) players and when going on the attack. When defending others, he has a sort of confidence-he's-right he doesn't have when attacking.
It could be a playstyle thing or a Day 1 thing, so I don't feel like pursuing him now, but it smells like inside information.
Indeed, since it's CC's "posts and stance" that changed.
--
Jack should answer what exactly feels off about the CC-me interaction, and how one of our flips will influence his read of the other.
On the other hand I don't care much for his weird takes, such as finding Axel proactive. These strike me more as a result of skimming and not paying attention, which is sloppy play but not a tell either way.
--
I have a slight scum read on JoeTerry. His play could come from either side, but
is hard to take seriously. It's empty humble bragging ("woe is me, I always get heat from being such a great teamplayer"). I do agree with Amy he's playing better than in Voldemort, but it doesn't mean he's town: being co-SK in a 20 players game is a lot more pressure than being scum in a 12 players game.
Please tell us more.
--
I'm okay with CropCircles' re-read for the most part. He raises good points about Dkings. What I don't get is how "[he's] putting DK, JoeTerry, and Jack (in that order) as [his] most suspicious after [me]".
He gave DK a "Leaning scum read" so him being at the top (and getting the vote) is fine, but he gave JoeTerry a "Reading as mildly questionable" and Jack a "Reading as questionable". Based on CC's own words the order should be Dkings/Jack/JoeTerry, not Dkings/JoeTerry/Jack.
Before anyone says I'm nitpicking, we are talking about someone who analysed the use of the words "but" and "though". Words matter to CropCircles. By the way, did you know a long time ago he single-handedly got the whole community to treat the word "honestly" as a scum-tell? Words matter to CropCircles.
--
Starting the CC wagon. Does that not matter? Granted, most players voting him came to their own conclusions about him, typically as a result of catching-up/re-reading. So you could argue I merely happened to be first and the wagon would have happened regardless of my input.
Still, you have no room to tell anyone
when you haven't been relevant since page 2~3.
--
3am Amy is best Amy.
---------------------------
Hot take: the scum team is CropCircles/JoeTerry/Grapefruit.
CropCircles had mostly scummy content until now. JoeTerry went for the bus at first. CC put JT higher on his list than he should be as part of a distancing attempt. JT unvoted when realising they could move forward without bussing CC. Day Chat may have come into play.
Grape I'm less sure, but he fits very well in the "intentionally taking the opposite stances from his buddies so he doesn't get spewed" slot.
Everyone else including Silver and my null reads gets to be town by elimination.
I voted CropCircles a while back and haven't moved my vote since then
Plus JT is listed as not voting CC when he is, dkings is supposed to be voting for me instead of voting GF
Will respond to stuff when I'm not on mobile, but ZDS - I meant something a little different when I asked Silver if he disagreed with your main argument. I'll explain more later
Just from a quick skim I like Amy's posts and content
I do not like Axel’s long post.
I tried not be lazy and give into my bias, but he’s just going on and on about flavor and fakeclaim theories on Day 1. Read the room please.
I think I’m gonna reel back the read to null for now.
Jack and JT are still scum.
@Proph JoeTerry unvoted in #305
Tl;Dr as long as you bold your vote and make sure the tags are snug ([b]vote person[/b] not [b] vote person [/b]) it ought to count barring host nickname errors
-------------
@ZDS: You acknowledged I don't believe my suspects are the exact wolf team; I'm not sure what the distinction is between that and "there's probably a wolf voting him" but there isn't one for me lol
-------------
I am parsing Amy's catch-up seems pretty solid though
Jackrito requested replacement.
Looking forward to play with everyone tbh
Hi [future scum replacement]!
Unvote, vote JoeTerry
As of that post, Cayvie replaced Jackrito
No sir, i am not Boq, but tbh is contagious and i like it ^^
Also, hey Cayvie!!
hii!! what's good around here? any sights to see, votes i should sheep?
then you will treat everyone like unknown players? Because such old meta is useless i think..
i have hung out with amy a few times on discord but never played together i don't think. otherwise yeah treating everyone like unknowns.
unvote
if i was voting for anyone