a fairly non-controversial opinion that LW's no alignment reveal claim is anti-town.
I don't know why this was common sentiment
If it were a D1 miller claim, it'd be lynch on sight, but I think the odds that a scum whose alignment doesn't flip would call attention to that fact like this to be relatively low, and given what I know of Wisp I feel comfortable saying that's something he'd claim as town. Consider - he's done a false D1 Miller claim before. Why would he expect a "no alignment flip" claim to be better for him than just claiming miller? Miller implies town, not flipping alignment really does not, and to state it with such confidence screams town Wisp to me
Jackrito can probably verify and presumably Fuwa (aa-dono) said the same. No idea how Wisp died but this claim being treated as scummy by consensus is not good.
Especially in a host who has hosted things like Miller ICs
I can agree with this actually, I made a similar point myself day one that with Wisp's rep as fakeclaiming in the past I did not think he would do this again if he knew it would gain him negative attention espically if he was going to spend the whole game complaining about people pushing him and how he is sick of it every game.
Any time I have seen "post less guys" thrown out the justification has ALWAYS been "it's bad for town to have too many posts to drown in"
I've actually used the tactic of drowning the thread out as scum before (granted, I was teamed with another high-posting player, but still) so I can see where that comes from
Don't think I've seen "I want to read less" as the main justification before
first time for everything!
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8 pages in, I have townreads on Rodemy, Kpaca and gooLagoon.
Rodemy: he wouldn’t have backtracked on his gambit as mafia.
Kpaca: he’s asking the right questions. Sadly in his typical Kpaca way where he doesn’t share what the answers do to his reads. Town for sure if terry is mafia.
gooLagoon: gutread.
What about Ampharos? Do you have a take there?
Town or with Fulcrum. Probably town.
How did you feel about Fukcrum, before their flip, obviously?
I only started reading beyond page 8 or so after her flip.
I’m going to try to get another big chunk of the game read today.
I’ve screwed this up before, just gonna go for it this time. What did you do last night?
All right, I looked at some stuff. I am not note-dumping, but I have identified a potential mafia, and at this point I am still hoping my target is town and I am not shooting myself in the foot by scum-hunting.
Vote: Trisscar who was Zionite.
I'll do up a "case" in a bit.
I'm confused how scumhunting could possibly be shooting yourself in the foot, in any world?
Are you still confused about this or are you caught up yet?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
All right, I looked at some stuff. I am not note-dumping, but I have identified a potential mafia, and at this point I am still hoping my target is town and I am not shooting myself in the foot by scum-hunting.
Vote: Trisscar who was Zionite.
I'll do up a "case" in a bit.
I'm confused how scumhunting could possibly be shooting yourself in the foot, in any world?
Are you still confused about this or are you caught up yet?
I'm not attempting to catch up, but at this point I would assume this is alluding to the fact that you are 3p?
Do you think I'm being rude? I'm not intending to be.
Could have fooled me.
Not to derail anything, but, seriously, I wasn't (intending, that is). I'm genuinely confused how you might have taken it that way, but I'm still sorry. Sometimes my style can get a little snarky.
What I said was that in your prior reply, you both misrepresented what I had said about Zionite and you also grossly exaggerated my statements. Can you see why I might say that? I mean, you really did.
It's like:
Axelrod: Zionite expressed a fairly non-controversial opinion that Last Whisper flipping no reveal is anti-town
Trisscar: So your saying claiming something vague with no flip is in some way automatically or obviously or commonly pro-town as opposed to anti or null
uh, no? That's not what I said....
And they were all like that.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Considering I independently think joe's "let's not lynch someone that won't flip on D1" argument was pretty compelling, I'm very interested in your interpretation of the events surrounding that slot
Take your time I guess, but I would like to hear from you at some point in the not-to-distant future.
Preferably before I get off work and finish looking over the remainder of your iso, lest you find you have even more to answer to.
All right, I looked at some stuff. I am not note-dumping, but I have identified a potential mafia, and at this point I am still hoping my target is town and I am not shooting myself in the foot by scum-hunting.
Vote: Trisscar who was Zionite.
I'll do up a "case" in a bit.
I'm confused how scumhunting could possibly be shooting yourself in the foot, in any world?
Are you still confused about this or are you caught up yet?
I'm not attempting to catch up, but at this point I would assume this is alluding to the fact that you are 3p?
Well, it's specifically because I'm an "Angel" role, which means my "win" condition is tied to the life of a particular player, who's alignment I do not know. That player must survive for me to win. If that player is Mafia, well, then I can only win with the Mafia, and scum-hunting is self-defeating.
I am still hoping, and playing as if, my target is Town though. The odds favor that at least.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I was about to call major BS on that take because the only real reason to claim 3p D1 is to de-incentivize scum killing you, and so by doing so you're already aligning yourself with them publicly in a way that means you have zero reason to be afraid of retaliation for "scum-hunting".
You being a GA/Mercenary specifically makes this make more sense (due to having a target) but you're still lucky I'm not a vig tbh
Iso-ing Terry I kind of forgot when i started it smh.. P#210 takes an old game comment like a scum chat slip. He explains further in his P#223 and in 227, 228 and 234. I'd say he jumps too fast to conclusions.
Maybe someone i TR can tell me if this is his normal way of playing, i would appreciate this info.
In P#247 he is giving Wisp the benefit of the doubt. The interactions of the page looks like a real progression. Townie point here.
P#329 i like the idea of not lynching with priority the non flipping claims because of the logical reason that they don't give infos. On the other hand the idea of lynching for infos is not what i am searching as villager. It may be a difference in play style between us. He later comes back to this idea in P#458.
P#334 it's a read for Tom? I don't see it as such. Looks like he wants to be seen as commenting about Tom but he don't want to give a real read for the slot or to say he doesn't have in fact a read. -1
P#443 comes after in 431 he was accusing Wisp for Ate-ing, and is a reaction at Tom voting for him. I had to see a player having this attitude for receiving a vote, i don't think i ever had the impression of someone gladly patting the head of the votant. Maybe is a strech, but is how i see that post.
P#467 i have to note his idea 'The fact that Axelrod also claimed non-flipper is worrisome. '
Side note Amy in 470 says Terry is TWTBAW.
P#903 and 913 he thinks scum wants to push for Axel, and gives scum points to Axel's wagon:
Axelrod (4) - Killjoy, ZeDorkSlipeur, Lastwhisper, TerRaine
I said i don't see Wisp as scum, and ZDS flipped villager. I want to check the progression from this point onward for the all wagon, and if he really follows his idea. P#928 is kind of general about day 1 lynch, i think is not AI. Post 931 is preparing the vote for ZDS and he is voting ZDS after an Iso in P#1046 - he was obviously wrong about ZDS. But I want to check the mindset.
1. i find hypocritical he complains that ZDS focused on claims when he did the same in so many posts until that moment. (comment for 215)
2. how come if you suspected yourself Rodemy the way ZDS worded his post made you turn towards one who made a case against Rodemy? I read P#525 as well and i don't see where this idea comes from ' It really just seems like an optics attempt.'
3. squinting (regarding post 544) you can see a shade in everything and i start to think that Terry wanted to go into a certain direction with this Iso.
4. post 551 has plain observations for the game, and further i don't understand why would be such a crime to SR Rodemy and the post 565 and 567 looks like a normal progression in an interaction. Terry thinks post 583 is a tunnel for Rodemy, I think Terry didn't saw a tunnel in his life, if he calls that post a tunnel. That idea is an exaggeration.
5. Terry is commenting for post 726 like the benefit of the doubt is a horrible crime and he didn't himself give it to Wisp earlier in the game. ZDS's explanation for scum reading Axel is logical, but Terry is defending Axel again and again, and he could be more subtil in this job tbh.
6. post 821 is made for pressure. But Terry sees a push for LHF, and I want to know since then he knows Poison is LHF, i remember Amy said she played a Champs game so, where this comes from? This is putting false infos itt isn't it? But Terry forgot that ZDS wanted to push Zionite/Trisscar and Tom. Nice omission dude!
7. interpretation for post 860 is not even objective. and the post 868 shows ZDS wants to reevaluate if needed which is villagery.
I don't see the reason to vote ZDS here, and Terry rushed this ISo to fit his pre set ideas that ZDS is scum...
Going further i don't like the questions post 1072 for Tom after asking Tubba in P#1048'Is there a reason you think Tom is NegTown and not NegScum?' because i didn't find a follow up for it and in post 1222 is he pocketing Kpaca? P#1223 he ignores Amy's TR for ZDS and even scum reads Konan because he makes an associative read between ZDS and Konan as scum buddies. Showing paranoia in day 1 and imagining teams without any base are not town treats. (posts 1229, 1235, 1281)
P#1232 shows self awareness and looks like he wants to look good. Is not AI per se, but i dislike it in context.
Terry's interaction with Wisp in posts 1420, 1526, P#1542, last one being an aggresive defence, shows he thinks he was townie but the tone of the posts may be explained from scum being questioned.
In P#1543 Terry said he read ZDS's meta and he played in his scum meta. I want to know how sure can someone be for a meta he doesn't know and are just skimming to check an idea. Again, not a townie point.
The above is what i think matters in his day 1 ISO, and i don't think my vote is wrong, in this moment i found some scum traits i pointed out, but in the possibility of him being a wrong villager i am expecting feedback from who cares.
Sloth has this sort of tone and comfort as scum and town based off the one scum game I saw him play,
On Wisp he has a pretty wide wolf range when it comes to random claims start of day one. I would like to think that he has learned to stop doing that, because itnormally bites him eventually. He will become clear in time though I'm sure.
actually wisp why the hell even claim that to begin with? if you're town it's literally not relevant information unless you're on the chopping block and/or planning on getting nightkilled
i don't like... see what we're supposed to do with that information rn. i don't see what sharing it's supposed to accomplish
bleh so now i think BOTH claims itt are ill advised lmao
i don't doubt that you're telling the truth about your alignment not revealing on death. i just don't see the town motivation for sharing that information
if you're scum, it's an attempt to wifom us out of any associative reads on your slot should you wind up being voted out, combined with like... attempting to earn towncred for honesty?
if you're town, it's just pointless, especially this early on
don't like it.
Amy, as pretty much the only person to actually be at all involved with the Jackrito read here, I'm curious how you swung from "wisp claim >rand true" to "wisp claiming is likely scum" with the only other comment in between being a post in support of Wisp likely being town for the claim from someone who knows him well?
In particular, I'm confused how you apparently decided that info wasn't useful unless he was "on the chopping block and/or planning on getting nightkilled". To make that claim while under pressure near EoD is going to result in his lynch nearly every time, right? It's kinda hard to believe you were seriously considering "Why say it now?" enough to pull a 180 when you seem to have given no thought to "Why not say it later?"
@sloth you gave this last post a +1 - same question to you
And i was multitabling in games that now are finished, I can focus here more, post and interact more than once in 12 hours. One od these games was MU team game that Aquilla hosted.
wait
who are you
I don't remember to play with you, maybe one game but not more than one day phase so I don't think you have meta for me.
Likewise, I know almost nothing about you
Right but like what account are you on MU
Please let me play this game before saying this at the end of game.
@WMU I'll look more into your wall later but am very interested to see where we disagree because I think I got like the total opposite outcome from reading his posts
And i was multitabling in games that now are finished, I can focus here more, post and interact more than once in 12 hours. One od these games was MU team game that Aquilla hosted.
wait
who are you
I don't remember to play with you, maybe one game but not more than one day phase so I don't think you have meta for me.
Likewise, I know almost nothing about you
Right but like what account are you on MU
Please let me play this game before saying this at the end of game.
Now that is a question with no answer because it's so dependent on context
However, when it comes to "X thing is bad for the town" and then doing X, that's generally less likely to come from someone whose mindset is genuinely focused on advancing the town
Most town hypocrisy tends to center on themselves and their own actions rather than being a general "this is bad for the gamestate" thing that they then perpetuate
you’re conflating me not wanting to sift through a lot of useless posts with me thinking more posts is bad for the town.
Those aren’t the same thing.
Huh
Any time I have seen "post less guys" thrown out the justification has ALWAYS been "it's bad for town to have too many posts to drown in"
I've actually used the tactic of drowning the thread out as scum before (granted, I was teamed with another high-posting player, but still) so I can see where that comes from
Don't think I've seen "I want to read less" as the main justification before
Iso-ing Terry I kind of forgot when i started it smh.. P#210 takes an old game comment like a scum chat slip. He explains further in his P#223 and in 227, 228 and 234. I'd say he jumps too fast to conclusions.
Maybe someone i TR can tell me if this is his normal way of playing, i would appreciate this info.
In P#247 he is giving Wisp the benefit of the doubt. The interactions of the page looks like a real progression. Townie point here.
P#329 i like the idea of not lynching with priority the non flipping claims because of the logical reason that they don't give infos. On the other hand the idea of lynching for infos is not what i am searching as villager. It may be a difference in play style between us. He later comes back to this idea in P#458.
P#334 it's a read for Tom? I don't see it as such. Looks like he wants to be seen as commenting about Tom but he don't want to give a real read for the slot or to say he doesn't have in fact a read. -1
P#443 comes after in 431 he was accusing Wisp for Ate-ing, and is a reaction at Tom voting for him. I had to see a player having this attitude for receiving a vote, i don't think i ever had the impression of someone gladly patting the head of the votant. Maybe is a strech, but is how i see that post.
P#467 i have to note his idea 'The fact that Axelrod also claimed non-flipper is worrisome. '
Side note Amy in 470 says Terry is TWTBAW.
P#903 and 913 he thinks scum wants to push for Axel, and gives scum points to Axel's wagon:
Axelrod (4) - Killjoy, ZeDorkSlipeur, Lastwhisper, TerRaine
I said i don't see Wisp as scum, and ZDS flipped villager. I want to check the progression from this point onward for the all wagon, and if he really follows his idea. P#928 is kind of general about day 1 lynch, i think is not AI. Post 931 is preparing the vote for ZDS and he is voting ZDS after an Iso in P#1046 - he was obviously wrong about ZDS. But I want to check the mindset.
1. i find hypocritical he complains that ZDS focused on claims when he did the same in so many posts until that moment. (comment for 215)
2. how come if you suspected yourself Rodemy the way ZDS worded his post made you turn towards one who made a case against Rodemy? I read P#525 as well and i don't see where this idea comes from ' It really just seems like an optics attempt.'
3. squinting (regarding post 544) you can see a shade in everything and i start to think that Terry wanted to go into a certain direction with this Iso.
4. post 551 has plain observations for the game, and further i don't understand why would be such a crime to SR Rodemy and the post 565 and 567 looks like a normal progression in an interaction. Terry thinks post 583 is a tunnel for Rodemy, I think Terry didn't saw a tunnel in his life, if he calls that post a tunnel. That idea is an exaggeration.
5. Terry is commenting for post 726 like the benefit of the doubt is a horrible crime and he didn't himself give it to Wisp earlier in the game. ZDS's explanation for scum reading Axel is logical, but Terry is defending Axel again and again, and he could be more subtil in this job tbh.
6. post 821 is made for pressure. But Terry sees a push for LHF, and I want to know since then he knows Poison is LHF, i remember Amy said she played a Champs game so, where this comes from? This is putting false infos itt isn't it? But Terry forgot that ZDS wanted to push Zionite/Trisscar and Tom. Nice omission dude!
7. interpretation for post 860 is not even objective. and the post 868 shows ZDS wants to reevaluate if needed which is villagery.
I don't see the reason to vote ZDS here, and Terry rushed this ISo to fit his pre set ideas that ZDS is scum...
Going further i don't like the questions post 1072 for Tom after asking Tubba in P#1048'Is there a reason you think Tom is NegTown and not NegScum?' because i didn't find a follow up for it and in post 1222 is he pocketing Kpaca? P#1223 he ignores Amy's TR for ZDS and even scum reads Konan because he makes an associative read between ZDS and Konan as scum buddies. Showing paranoia in day 1 and imagining teams without any base are not town treats. (posts 1229, 1235, 1281)
P#1232 shows self awareness and looks like he wants to look good. Is not AI per se, but i dislike it in context.
Terry's interaction with Wisp in posts 1420, 1526, P#1542, last one being an aggresive defence, shows he thinks he was townie but the tone of the posts may be explained from scum being questioned.
In P#1543 Terry said he read ZDS's meta and he played in his scum meta. I want to know how sure can someone be for a meta he doesn't know and are just skimming to check an idea. Again, not a townie point.
The above is what i think matters in his day 1 ISO, and i don't think my vote is wrong, in this moment i found some scum traits i pointed out, but in the possibility of him being a wrong villager i am expecting feedback from who cares.
Terry said he read ZDS's meta and he played in his scum meta. I want to know how sure can someone be for a meta he doesn't know and are just skimming to check an idea. Again, not a townie point.
Ok, I'm back from reading ZDS' last two games, Matter Mafia, where he was town and Prison BLock II where he was scum.
I really think the meta matches up with him being scum in this game. I'm not going to go through and build a meta case, but on my read through (of ZDS' ISO not the whole game), I felt the same level insincerity combined with kind of awkward joking in Prison Block that I'm seeing here. I was actually a bit surprised with the quality I saw from ZDS in Matter Mafia. I'm open to hear other people's opinion but it made me feel a lot better about where my vote is now.
For example this....no where does Terry say he's skimming it. ISOing for meta is not skimming.
This is a very cherry picked way of viewing that post. Amy says something that had her Townreading ZDS but also lists reasons she sees a vote on him as “Valid.” She goes over the doubts she has on ZDS…he’s not ignoring a tower read he’s saying he thinks her doubts are valid.
Some of your points just seem to scream “I decided Terry was scum and need to make it seem valid”
Iso-ing Terry I kind of forgot when i started it smh.. P#210 takes an old game comment like a scum chat slip. He explains further in his P#223 and in 227, 228 and 234. I'd say he jumps too fast to conclusions.
Maybe someone i TR can tell me if this is his normal way of playing, i would appreciate this info.
In P#247 he is giving Wisp the benefit of the doubt. The interactions of the page looks like a real progression. Townie point here.
P#329 i like the idea of not lynching with priority the non flipping claims because of the logical reason that they don't give infos. On the other hand the idea of lynching for infos is not what i am searching as villager. It may be a difference in play style between us. He later comes back to this idea in P#458.
P#334 it's a read for Tom? I don't see it as such. Looks like he wants to be seen as commenting about Tom but he don't want to give a real read for the slot or to say he doesn't have in fact a read. -1
P#443 comes after in 431 he was accusing Wisp for Ate-ing, and is a reaction at Tom voting for him. I had to see a player having this attitude for receiving a vote, i don't think i ever had the impression of someone gladly patting the head of the votant. Maybe is a strech, but is how i see that post.
P#467 i have to note his idea 'The fact that Axelrod also claimed non-flipper is worrisome. '
Side note Amy in 470 says Terry is TWTBAW.
P#903 and 913 he thinks scum wants to push for Axel, and gives scum points to Axel's wagon:
Axelrod (4) - Killjoy, ZeDorkSlipeur, Lastwhisper, TerRaine
I said i don't see Wisp as scum, and ZDS flipped villager. I want to check the progression from this point onward for the all wagon, and if he really follows his idea. P#928 is kind of general about day 1 lynch, i think is not AI. Post 931 is preparing the vote for ZDS and he is voting ZDS after an Iso in P#1046 - he was obviously wrong about ZDS. But I want to check the mindset.
1. i find hypocritical he complains that ZDS focused on claims when he did the same in so many posts until that moment. (comment for 215)
2. how come if you suspected yourself Rodemy the way ZDS worded his post made you turn towards one who made a case against Rodemy? I read P#525 as well and i don't see where this idea comes from ' It really just seems like an optics attempt.'
3. squinting (regarding post 544) you can see a shade in everything and i start to think that Terry wanted to go into a certain direction with this Iso.
4. post 551 has plain observations for the game, and further i don't understand why would be such a crime to SR Rodemy and the post 565 and 567 looks like a normal progression in an interaction. Terry thinks post 583 is a tunnel for Rodemy, I think Terry didn't saw a tunnel in his life, if he calls that post a tunnel. That idea is an exaggeration.
5. Terry is commenting for post 726 like the benefit of the doubt is a horrible crime and he didn't himself give it to Wisp earlier in the game. ZDS's explanation for scum reading Axel is logical, but Terry is defending Axel again and again, and he could be more subtil in this job tbh.
6. post 821 is made for pressure. But Terry sees a push for LHF, and I want to know since then he knows Poison is LHF, i remember Amy said she played a Champs game so, where this comes from? This is putting false infos itt isn't it? But Terry forgot that ZDS wanted to push Zionite/Trisscar and Tom. Nice omission dude!
7. interpretation for post 860 is not even objective. and the post 868 shows ZDS wants to reevaluate if needed which is villagery.
I don't see the reason to vote ZDS here, and Terry rushed this ISo to fit his pre set ideas that ZDS is scum...
Going further i don't like the questions post 1072 for Tom after asking Tubba in P#1048'Is there a reason you think Tom is NegTown and not NegScum?' because i didn't find a follow up for it and in post 1222 is he pocketing Kpaca? P#1223 he ignores Amy's TR for ZDS and even scum reads Konan because he makes an associative read between ZDS and Konan as scum buddies. Showing paranoia in day 1 and imagining teams without any base are not town treats. (posts 1229, 1235, 1281)
P#1232 shows self awareness and looks like he wants to look good. Is not AI per se, but i dislike it in context.
Terry's interaction with Wisp in posts 1420, 1526, P#1542, last one being an aggresive defence, shows he thinks he was townie but the tone of the posts may be explained from scum being questioned.
In P#1543 Terry said he read ZDS's meta and he played in his scum meta. I want to know how sure can someone be for a meta he doesn't know and are just skimming to check an idea. Again, not a townie point.
The above is what i think matters in his day 1 ISO, and i don't think my vote is wrong, in this moment i found some scum traits i pointed out, but in the possibility of him being a wrong villager i am expecting feedback from who cares.
can you like
Summarize this?
The tl;dr is:
I think the way Terry handled ZDS's Iso was like he made it with the idea that ZDS is scum so he 'found' evidences to fit this idea, and he could make it as scum or as wrong town.
Scummy are his self awareness and the way he defend himself pretty aggresive in front of Wisp. He also has tonwie points but not many.
When he saw ZDS wants to look at Poison, Zionite and Tom he pointed out just Poison as LHF even if he doesn't know her.
Presenting half of truth is another scummy thing.
I said this from memory, i can't see the wall on phone, and i closed the laptop because it became too hot.
@Orangeandblack if you found Terry villagery, please enlighten me.
Okay, at risk of annoying Trisscar some more, I'll continue with what I was doing. I'm going to jump to the end first though, and the Konan lynch, because that's what drew my attention that way.
I was looking at the voting patterns at the end of the day, who was voting who, when, and why. There was quite a bit of shifting around at the last minute. I'm also looking at people who weren't voting, and why they weren't voting, if they said (there were some people who completely missed the lynch, which is a whole other thing entirely).
Trisscar replaced in on 6/26 at #1460, which is admittedly late in the day. She did a couple of long "catch-up" type posts, which I'm not digging into yet, but I will say they didn't have a lot in them by way of opinion.
The strongest opinion, and what kind of caught my eye was #1764. This is after I made my "gotcha" post on Konan (which, I know, was actually wrong, my bad, etc., etc). Here Trisscar ignores that post completely though, and instead discredits my attack by virtue of the fact that I am "neutral" and have expressed the opinion that my role sucks. Therefore, it seems the argument goes, I should not be trusted - regardless of what the argument is.
So, that stood out at first. And the rest of this post is a fairly strong defense/rebuttal of my argument that Shadow (as a vanilla) Town, wouldn't have made the posts that he did. Trisscar disagrees, but the argument isn't consistent. I was arguing that Shadow, as a vanilla, wouldn't have been stating how bad his role was, and Trisscar is rebutting me by saying "Vanilla town having a way to gain a role through game mechanics sounds interesting and honestly much more fun than being basic vanilla town with no option to do more than vote and argue ever."
This is not a rebuttal though, this is, like, exactly what I was saying. I didn't think Shadow would have been complaining if that was really his role.
My other point was that it would have been irresponsible for him to be so brazenly asking for the Dark Mark to be given to him as a vanilla townie. Trisscar doesn't seem to agree, saying: "I suspect that anyone asking for the mark is bored enough with their role (or unsatisfied enough) to want to see what happens." This doesn't seem consistent with the point she was making above though. Which was it, is the role interesting and more fun than vanilla Town, or boring and unsatisfying?
She goes on to suggest she would prefer a ZDS lynch, but doesn't actually have a "massive" read or "solid scum lean" on either of them. It's a serious hedge. Which might be okay for someone new to the game and still catching up, but begs the question why she would then be jumping in to make this post in defense of Konan to begin with?
What it really reads like is someone trying to be on the right side of history.
She follows that up in #1791, where, again, she states that nothing Konan has said tripped her radar - despite acknowledging at the same time she hasn't gone through Konan's iso or notes. She wants someone to summarize for her what is scummy about Konan. Again, it's just weird to me her taking this position of "I don't understand what the case is, but I don't like it." (because it came from Axelrod?) Just seems like Town would take a minute and look closer.
The original case was, of course, not mine at all, it came from Fulcrum. She did all the heavy lifting in forcing Konan to claim, and his claim is what I thought I busted him on, but Trisscar seems to have missed all those original arguments, despite there being quite a bit of them. When I look at her "catch-up" posts, specifically looking for opinions on Konan, or Fulcrum, or any opinions about the arguments being made, there's nothing. Tom specifically asked her what she had seen, and she says "not a ton" and not enough to "mentally mark" who started it. All it seems she registered was that Konan seemed to get a lot of votes quickly. Which makes me wonder, what kind of catching up was she doing?
And then Trisscar basically doesn't say anything else for the rest of the game day. There's no more defense of Konan, no suggestion of anyone else. No real opinions given. Just rides out the rest of the day with some strange comments on tangential stuff. No votes for anyone.
All this to say, when I'm looking for reactions that I think could be coming from Mafia, this is just the kind of thing I'm looking for. And then when I went back and looked closer at Zionite it didn't get better.
I am, again, not claiming this is a slam dunk. I am just taking my best shot. I see a bunch of suspicious stuff, and conversely, nothing that stood out as particularly "Townie."
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Terry said he read ZDS's meta and he played in his scum meta. I want to know how sure can someone be for a meta he doesn't know and are just skimming to check an idea. Again, not a townie point.
Ok, I'm back from reading ZDS' last two games, Matter Mafia, where he was town and Prison BLock II where he was scum.
I really think the meta matches up with him being scum in this game. I'm not going to go through and build a meta case, but on my read through (of ZDS' ISO not the whole game), I felt the same level insincerity combined with kind of awkward joking in Prison Block that I'm seeing here. I was actually a bit surprised with the quality I saw from ZDS in Matter Mafia. I'm open to hear other people's opinion but it made me feel a lot better about where my vote is now.
For example this....no where does Terry say he's skimming it. ISOing for meta is not skimming.
This is a very cherry picked way of viewing that post. Amy says something that had her Townreading ZDS but also lists reasons she sees a vote on him as “Valid.” She goes over the doubts she has on ZDS…he’s not ignoring a tower read he’s saying he thinks her doubts are valid.
Some of your points just seem to scream “I decided Terry was scum and need to make it seem valid”
There is no way he read those games through to see ZDS's meta and come with a wrong read, you are not realistic.
From Amy's wall i understood she TRs ZDS. :shrug
You didn't notice all the points i see. Why are you cherry picking my ideas?
@Terraine, you put a lot of effort into pushing me, can you show me where is your head at rn?
Who do you have as 3 scum reads and 3 town reads would also be a good input.
is wrong if i think an attack for me can be considered a defence for Terry? But was both, defence by explaining how phone posting works (i know better than he thinks, i am phone posting almost all time) and attack for me.
which do you think was *why she did it*?
Can you reformulate?
@Tom, sir, can you help me understand what you ask here?
Not to derail anything, but, seriously, I wasn't (intending, that is). I'm genuinely confused how you might have taken it that way, but I'm still sorry. Sometimes my style can get a little snarky.
What I said was that in your prior reply, you both misrepresented what I had said about Zionite and you also grossly exaggerated my statements. Can you see why I might say that? I mean, you really did.
It's like:
Axelrod: Zionite expressed a fairly non-controversial opinion that Last Whisper flipping no reveal is anti-town
Trisscar: So your saying claiming something vague with no flip is in some way automatically or obviously or commonly pro-town as opposed to anti or null
uh, no? That's not what I said....
And they were all like that.
....It's not just you, it's this entire friggin' thread. I really want to know why offensively aggressive behavior is something people constantly go for in these games, this has happened twice now on two different forums each with large games, what the hell.
then explain yourself, you make zero sense for me tbh.
well you could have posted something substantive about some sort of lead or idea based off of ZDS’ read. But you didn’t. You tried to get someone else to say it was a good idea so you could let the town drift that way. That’s my interpretation of these events, you see.
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Alright lemme try to remember my thought process here....
My first batch of notes I was reading every post and commenting on things that caught my eye, but not actually processing much in terms of patterns because that is significantly simpler when you can lay out anything pertinent in shorter format instead.
By the second batch my focus was so trashed that I started heavily skimming, since half of the posts were arguments between multiple parties regardless and it was unpleasant as hell to read. Konan posted a few walls, I did not read them because they were walls and I wanted to get through the posts sometime before prod deadline or the next century.
I did read most of the shorter posts, or at least read enough to get the gist, of most people though, and the posts to Konan that stood out to me were looking overly aggro to a replacement player (especially considering how other replacements were treated) and Konan was showing what I felt was genuine frustration and other less pleasant emotions due to it. And no one seemed to even notice. I wasn't kidding when I told Whisper that this game looked unfun, holy crap people.
Then I get to the at the time end of the current posts, and I see the newest player getting voted off for reasons that just sound like the multiple arguments that were killing my focus and drive before, extremely fast. If a vote is fast in other versions of mafia I've played, then that means scum is likely voting it. Even if it's a bus, I'd still rather people not go along directly with a potential scum plan without careful thought.
Also in most of the variants I've played, vanilla town is inherently bad design because the player has nothing to do but discuss and vote, it's boring. Admittedly a lot of my experience is with Town of Salem and Throne of Lies recently, and both are significantly higher power floor than this, with much less time to discuss. Hence thinking that vanilla town roles here having a way to possibly gain abilities is interesting and possibly fun.
In terms of not doing things, previously mentioned lack of focus, in addition to things I cannot speak of due to rules, kept me distracted for a good while. I apologize for necessitating a prod though, that was not my intention.
Not helping is that the thread is STILL a European-mess of small time wars between different people, quite a few of which I can't or don't want to put full reads on because I can't tell if the issue is this aggro-centric playstyle, language barriers, previous games, or actual scum-logic, if not a combination of some or all at once.
Lastly, since this is likely what is tripping you up aside from the other stuff, I don't read people the same way a lot I've encountered seem to. I pay attention to different things and generally try not to bias myself initially by labelling anyone as "scummy" in general. If you want examples I can give you links to previous games, but my mind does not currently work the way people seem to want it to in order to produce read lists that look like theirs. Maybe it will one day, who knows, but that isn't the case now.
then explain yourself, you make zero sense for me tbh.
well you could have posted something substantive about some sort of lead or idea based off of ZDS’ read. But you didn’t. You tried to get someone else to say it was a good idea so you could let the town drift that way. That’s my interpretation of these events, you see.
This is shallow man, you would say it back then if that would be the case.
Let's say it again, i said we should check ZDS's reads and you say is a bad idea or what?
what sense have the "let town drift that way", did i ask anyone to follow me? Was anyone ready to go and check? Or you have just big imagination?
I think you go for Lamist but this push is a bad one.
If you are villager, why do you think that ZDS's reads should be ignored? Now that we know he was town motivated and we know he is a competent villager, why not -not follow him blindly- consider his reads and at least discuss them?
There is no way he read those games through to see ZDS's meta and come with a wrong read, you are not realistic.
From Amy's wall i understood she TRs ZDS. :shrug
You didn't notice all the points i see. Why are you cherry picking my ideas?
1) I was scum in Prison with ZDS. I can easily see how someone could see similar tone and meta between here and there. Sometimes meta reads fail. They're not fool proof and I think it's disingenuous to claim that anyone who ****s up a meta case is auto scum or lying.
2) You asked for opinions. I'm giving them. Some of your case is weak and you had to twist like and owls head to make it a scum point.
@Terraine, you put a lot of effort into pushing me, can you show me where is your head at rn?
Who do you have as 3 scum reads and 3 town reads would also be a good input.
My head is annoyed that it's storming and I don't get to take my walk.
This is shallow man, you would say it back then if that would be the case.
Let's say it again, i said we should check ZDS's reads and you say is a bad idea or what?
what sense have the "let town drift that way", did i ask anyone to follow me? Was anyone ready to go and check? Or you have just big imagination?
I think you go for Lamist but this push is a bad one.
If you are villager, why do you think that ZDS's reads should be ignored? Now that we know he was town motivated and we know he is a competent villager, why not -not follow him blindly- consider his reads and at least discuss them?
where did I say we should ignore ZDS reads?
And since when does “not saying something then” mean that’s not why I said something.
Me “says something”
You “why did you say that?”
Me “because reason”
You “no you would have already said that”.
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@TR: I saw the same thing, but thought I would be biased. Like, I can't even respond to this ISO, it doesn't even really feel like he thinks I'm scummy and is really reaching, but still happy with his vote.
I'm going to try, just for funsies and score myself on what I think WMU is trying to read out of these comments (*like what I think WMU's end point was)
#210-234: Umm yeah, that's pretty much standard for me. (+0*)
#247: Thanks for the Town Point WMU (+1*)
#329 & #458: WMU both approves and disapproves of basing the Day 1 lynch options on the amount of info that can be gained in the same comment. (+0*)
#334: Apparently WMU awards me a minus point for saying, "Tom is Tomming" because it was silly for me to even attempt a read on only GIFs (-1*)
#443: I can't even decipher this comment. I think he's saying he hasn't seen a player pat their Voter on the head? (+0*)
#467: WMU just repeats what I said in the post about both LW and Axel claiming non-flippers (+0*)
#903 & #913: WMU looks at my exploration of those voting Axel and basically says he'll look more into it, while saying he thinks LW was town, still no actual comment on my alignment (+1*)
#928 & 931: Still nothing on my comment. I don't see why these posts made his highlight reel. #928 is a clear explanation of my opinion (+0*)
#1046: Ok, here's a meaty post about my case on ZDS (which is a follow up on the Axel thing in #903 & #913 (and since I actually do follow up, I'm assuming that gives me +1) that WMU wants to take apart:
1) WMU says he thinks it's hypocritical that I complained about ZDS focusing on claims, when I did the same in so many posts before that. I don't think I did, so I had to go back and read my ISO. Yep, I was right. Not a single comment directly talking about anyone's claims. Maybe he meant Axel, so I said wouldn't moan about a bad role as scum just to be sneaky, which is really more of a meta argument than a claim one.
2) Umm, I voted ZDS so far after this (#525) and it was just one of the reasons I voted for him. I changed my read on Rod between #525 and #1046, which is allowed and I thought the ZDS case felt forced and that he just wanted to "look like" he was scum hunting. I was wrong, but I don't think I was the only one wrong about him.
3) My comment in question, "Not much here but maybe a little bit of shading if you squint." seems like a pretty neutral comment and I at least called out my squinting, unlike WMU's entire ISO attack on me.
4) I know what tunnels look like, I'm looking at one right now. In fact, I was about to get out of my tunnel on WMU and explore the whole game before I got sucked into this.
5) Did WMU not see the hypocrisy in ZDS voting Axel for being on the Rod wagon, when ZDS was the one that started the Rod wagon?
6) Lurkers are LHF. I stand by that comment. I think WMU is trying to say that I know Poison is town because I called them low hanging fruit. Low hanging fruit, to me are people that look easy to lynch, the term itself is not alignment indicative. I can't really understand the rest of this comment.
7) I even called myself out on "seeing red" at this point of the ISO. You should know what that feels like, at least I'm honest with myself.
OVERALL I think this is (-1*)
#1048 & #1072: He doesn't like that I didn't follow up on Tubba saying Negtown and not Negscum and he didn't like my questions for Tom. So I know this is supposed to be negative for me but just not liking a post really shouldn't be. (-1*)
#1222: Umm, I was taking a jab at Kpaca, like the opposite of pocketing. I straight up said he rated himself too high. (This has to be +0* because he was just so blatantly wrong on this)
#1223: Ok, now thinking for myself and not just jumping on board with what other people say is a bad thing? First of all, I don't even think the AMy post in question had ZDS as town. Second, even if it did, why would I care? I think Amy is town, but it shouldn't impact my reads on others. ANNNNDDD... right... paranoia and associative reads are TOTALLY not town traits, because you know... they totally have no reason to be paranoid and see teams that may or may not exist. (-1*)
#1232: NAI according to this comment but it was +1 earlier (+0*)
#1420-#1542: I don't know what the point is here
#1543: At this point I'm mad at myself for even wasting my time responding to all this. AYFKM? Reading someone's previous two games is obviously going to be a skim and no one will be certain, but caring enough to do so is definitely +1, but WMU said not so.. (+0*)
So when my timesuck is said and done I see a whole lot of +0, two +1 and four -1. Of those four, three are complete garbage and the remaining -1 (steaming off of #1046) is a super big stretch.
That being said, I'm going to need to ignore WMU for the most part, this is starting to feel like a deliberate distraction.
Iso-ing Terry I kind of forgot when i started it smh.. P#210 takes an old game comment like a scum chat slip. He explains further in his P#223 and in 227, 228 and 234. I'd say he jumps too fast to conclusions.
Maybe someone i TR can tell me if this is his normal way of playing, i would appreciate this info.
In P#247 he is giving Wisp the benefit of the doubt. The interactions of the page looks like a real progression. Townie point here.
P#329 i like the idea of not lynching with priority the non flipping claims because of the logical reason that they don't give infos. On the other hand the idea of lynching for infos is not what i am searching as villager. It may be a difference in play style between us. He later comes back to this idea in P#458.
P#334 it's a read for Tom? I don't see it as such. Looks like he wants to be seen as commenting about Tom but he don't want to give a real read for the slot or to say he doesn't have in fact a read. -1
P#443 comes after in 431 he was accusing Wisp for Ate-ing, and is a reaction at Tom voting for him. I had to see a player having this attitude for receiving a vote, i don't think i ever had the impression of someone gladly patting the head of the votant. Maybe is a strech, but is how i see that post.
P#467 i have to note his idea 'The fact that Axelrod also claimed non-flipper is worrisome. '
Side note Amy in 470 says Terry is TWTBAW.
P#903 and 913 he thinks scum wants to push for Axel, and gives scum points to Axel's wagon:
Axelrod (4) - Killjoy, ZeDorkSlipeur, Lastwhisper, TerRaine
I said i don't see Wisp as scum, and ZDS flipped villager. I want to check the progression from this point onward for the all wagon, and if he really follows his idea. P#928 is kind of general about day 1 lynch, i think is not AI. Post 931 is preparing the vote for ZDS and he is voting ZDS after an Iso in P#1046 - he was obviously wrong about ZDS. But I want to check the mindset.
1. i find hypocritical he complains that ZDS focused on claims when he did the same in so many posts until that moment. (comment for 215)
2. how come if you suspected yourself Rodemy the way ZDS worded his post made you turn towards one who made a case against Rodemy? I read P#525 as well and i don't see where this idea comes from ' It really just seems like an optics attempt.'
3. squinting (regarding post 544) you can see a shade in everything and i start to think that Terry wanted to go into a certain direction with this Iso.
4. post 551 has plain observations for the game, and further i don't understand why would be such a crime to SR Rodemy and the post 565 and 567 looks like a normal progression in an interaction. Terry thinks post 583 is a tunnel for Rodemy, I think Terry didn't saw a tunnel in his life, if he calls that post a tunnel. That idea is an exaggeration.
5. Terry is commenting for post 726 like the benefit of the doubt is a horrible crime and he didn't himself give it to Wisp earlier in the game. ZDS's explanation for scum reading Axel is logical, but Terry is defending Axel again and again, and he could be more subtil in this job tbh.
6. post 821 is made for pressure. But Terry sees a push for LHF, and I want to know since then he knows Poison is LHF, i remember Amy said she played a Champs game so, where this comes from? This is putting false infos itt isn't it? But Terry forgot that ZDS wanted to push Zionite/Trisscar and Tom. Nice omission dude!
7. interpretation for post 860 is not even objective. and the post 868 shows ZDS wants to reevaluate if needed which is villagery.
I don't see the reason to vote ZDS here, and Terry rushed this ISo to fit his pre set ideas that ZDS is scum...
Going further i don't like the questions post 1072 for Tom after asking Tubba in P#1048'Is there a reason you think Tom is NegTown and not NegScum?' because i didn't find a follow up for it and in post 1222 is he pocketing Kpaca? P#1223 he ignores Amy's TR for ZDS and even scum reads Konan because he makes an associative read between ZDS and Konan as scum buddies. Showing paranoia in day 1 and imagining teams without any base are not town treats. (posts 1229, 1235, 1281)
P#1232 shows self awareness and looks like he wants to look good. Is not AI per se, but i dislike it in context.
Terry's interaction with Wisp in posts 1420, 1526, P#1542, last one being an aggresive defence, shows he thinks he was townie but the tone of the posts may be explained from scum being questioned.
In P#1543 Terry said he read ZDS's meta and he played in his scum meta. I want to know how sure can someone be for a meta he doesn't know and are just skimming to check an idea. Again, not a townie point.
The above is what i think matters in his day 1 ISO, and i don't think my vote is wrong, in this moment i found some scum traits i pointed out, but in the possibility of him being a wrong villager i am expecting feedback from who cares.
can you like
Summarize this?
The tl;dr is:
I think the way Terry handled ZDS's Iso was like he made it with the idea that ZDS is scum so he 'found' evidences to fit this idea, and he could make it as scum or as wrong town.
Scummy are his self awareness and the way he defend himself pretty aggresive in front of Wisp. He also has tonwie points but not many.
When he saw ZDS wants to look at Poison, Zionite and Tom he pointed out just Poison as LHF even if he doesn't know her.
Presenting half of truth is another scummy thing.
I said this from memory, i can't see the wall on phone, and i closed the laptop because it became too hot.
@Orangeandblack if you found Terry villagery, please enlighten me.
Come on, please tell me you see the irony of this.
Wake, may I ask you a personal thing?
How would you rate your fluency in English, assuming I'm correct in remembering that it is not your first language?
for Not Mafia reads, and everyone else is kind of just floating in the void. tom's okay but I feel some type of way with how he's kind of just written me off.
I'm sorely tempted to give Wake the benefit of the doubt for today due to Lastwhisper's last wisp will and testament regarding her, especially if he was shot by a scum vig.
xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx (3) - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Rodemy, kpaca
Killjoy (2) - tomsloger, Rhand
Slothful (2) - TerRaine, gooLagoon
Tubba Fett (2) - Ampharos, Slothful
orangeandblack5 (1) - Jackrito
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (1) - xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx
Trisscar (1) - Axelrod
Not voting: Killjoy, orangeandblack5, Trisscar, Tubba Fett
Vote History:
Slothful - Tubba Fett
tomsloger - Slothful > Killjoy
TerRaine - Tubba Fett > xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx
xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Rodemy - xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx > Axelrod > Killjoy > Slothful > Killjoy > xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx
Rhand - Slothful > Killjoy
Jackrito - orangeandblack5
gooLagoon - Slothful > TheRealStinkyJoeTerry > Slothful
Axelrod - Trisscar
kpaca - xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx
It takes 9 to elim, and Day 2 Deadline is July 11th, 2020 at 1715 PST. There will likely be a twilight phase.
Killjoy is V/LA.
Slothful is V/LA.
I can agree with this actually, I made a similar point myself day one that with Wisp's rep as fakeclaiming in the past I did not think he would do this again if he knew it would gain him negative attention espically if he was going to spend the whole game complaining about people pushing him and how he is sick of it every game.
Can you link me to said point? I'm curious what was said and what the response was
first time for everything!
What percentage was mechanics and what percentage would you say was independently finding him scummy?
Did you expect his flipless claim to be truthful or a lie, and how did that play into your read on the slot?
How has his death affected your outlook on the others pushing/defending him?
I’ve screwed this up before, just gonna go for it this time. What did you do last night?
I'm not attempting to catch up, but at this point I would assume this is alluding to the fact that you are 3p?
I could; and I might later, but I’m not right now.
None of it was mechanics based though.
What I said was that in your prior reply, you both misrepresented what I had said about Zionite and you also grossly exaggerated my statements. Can you see why I might say that? I mean, you really did.
It's like:
Axelrod: Zionite expressed a fairly non-controversial opinion that Last Whisper flipping no reveal is anti-town
Trisscar: So your saying claiming something vague with no flip is in some way automatically or obviously or commonly pro-town as opposed to anti or null
uh, no? That's not what I said....
And they were all like that.
Take your time I guess, but I would like to hear from you at some point in the not-to-distant future.
Preferably before I get off work and finish looking over the remainder of your iso, lest you find you have even more to answer to.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/817898-voldemorts-throne-room-mafia-day-2?page=3#c114
Not as clear as I thought that I was but this was when I mentioned it
I am still hoping, and playing as if, my target is Town though. The odds favor that at least.
I was about to call major BS on that take because the only real reason to claim 3p D1 is to de-incentivize scum killing you, and so by doing so you're already aligning yourself with them publicly in a way that means you have zero reason to be afraid of retaliation for "scum-hunting".
You being a GA/Mercenary specifically makes this make more sense (due to having a target) but you're still lucky I'm not a vig tbh
P#210 takes an old game comment like a scum chat slip. He explains further in his P#223 and in 227, 228 and 234. I'd say he jumps too fast to conclusions.
Maybe someone i TR can tell me if this is his normal way of playing, i would appreciate this info.
In P#247 he is giving Wisp the benefit of the doubt. The interactions of the page looks like a real progression. Townie point here.
P#329 i like the idea of not lynching with priority the non flipping claims because of the logical reason that they don't give infos. On the other hand the idea of lynching for infos is not what i am searching as villager. It may be a difference in play style between us. He later comes back to this idea in P#458.
P#334 it's a read for Tom? I don't see it as such. Looks like he wants to be seen as commenting about Tom but he don't want to give a real read for the slot or to say he doesn't have in fact a read. -1
P#443 comes after in 431 he was accusing Wisp for Ate-ing, and is a reaction at Tom voting for him. I had to see a player having this attitude for receiving a vote, i don't think i ever had the impression of someone gladly patting the head of the votant. Maybe is a strech, but is how i see that post.
P#467 i have to note his idea 'The fact that Axelrod also claimed non-flipper is worrisome. '
Side note Amy in 470 says Terry is TWTBAW.
P#903 and 913 he thinks scum wants to push for Axel, and gives scum points to Axel's wagon:
Axelrod (4) - Killjoy, ZeDorkSlipeur, Lastwhisper, TerRaine
I said i don't see Wisp as scum, and ZDS flipped villager. I want to check the progression from this point onward for the all wagon, and if he really follows his idea.
P#928 is kind of general about day 1 lynch, i think is not AI. Post 931 is preparing the vote for ZDS and he is voting ZDS after an Iso in P#1046 - he was obviously wrong about ZDS. But I want to check the mindset.
1. i find hypocritical he complains that ZDS focused on claims when he did the same in so many posts until that moment. (comment for 215)
2. how come if you suspected yourself Rodemy the way ZDS worded his post made you turn towards one who made a case against Rodemy? I read P#525 as well and i don't see where this idea comes from ' It really just seems like an optics attempt.'
3. squinting (regarding post 544) you can see a shade in everything and i start to think that Terry wanted to go into a certain direction with this Iso.
4. post 551 has plain observations for the game, and further i don't understand why would be such a crime to SR Rodemy and the post 565 and 567 looks like a normal progression in an interaction. Terry thinks post 583 is a tunnel for Rodemy, I think Terry didn't saw a tunnel in his life, if he calls that post a tunnel. That idea is an exaggeration.
5. Terry is commenting for post 726 like the benefit of the doubt is a horrible crime and he didn't himself give it to Wisp earlier in the game. ZDS's explanation for scum reading Axel is logical, but Terry is defending Axel again and again, and he could be more subtil in this job tbh.
6. post 821 is made for pressure. But Terry sees a push for LHF, and I want to know since then he knows Poison is LHF, i remember Amy said she played a Champs game so, where this comes from? This is putting false infos itt isn't it? But Terry forgot that ZDS wanted to push Zionite/Trisscar and Tom. Nice omission dude!
7. interpretation for post 860 is not even objective. and the post 868 shows ZDS wants to reevaluate if needed which is villagery.
I don't see the reason to vote ZDS here, and Terry rushed this ISo to fit his pre set ideas that ZDS is scum...
Going further i don't like the questions post 1072 for Tom after asking Tubba in P#1048 'Is there a reason you think Tom is NegTown and not NegScum?' because i didn't find a follow up for it and in post 1222 is he pocketing Kpaca?
P#1223 he ignores Amy's TR for ZDS and even scum reads Konan because he makes an associative read between ZDS and Konan as scum buddies. Showing paranoia in day 1 and imagining teams without any base are not town treats. (posts 1229, 1235, 1281)
P#1232 shows self awareness and looks like he wants to look good. Is not AI per se, but i dislike it in context.
Terry's interaction with Wisp in posts 1420, 1526, P#1542, last one being an aggresive defence, shows he thinks he was townie but the tone of the posts may be explained from scum being questioned.
In P#1543 Terry said he read ZDS's meta and he played in his scum meta. I want to know how sure can someone be for a meta he doesn't know and are just skimming to check an idea. Again, not a townie point.
The above is what i think matters in his day 1 ISO, and i don't think my vote is wrong, in this moment i found some scum traits i pointed out, but in the possibility of him being a wrong villager i am expecting feedback from who cares.
Amy, as pretty much the only person to actually be at all involved with the Jackrito read here, I'm curious how you swung from "wisp claim >rand true" to "wisp claiming is likely scum" with the only other comment in between being a post in support of Wisp likely being town for the claim from someone who knows him well?
In particular, I'm confused how you apparently decided that info wasn't useful unless he was "on the chopping block and/or planning on getting nightkilled". To make that claim while under pressure near EoD is going to result in his lynch nearly every time, right? It's kinda hard to believe you were seriously considering "Why say it now?" enough to pull a 180 when you seem to have given no thought to "Why not say it later?"
@sloth you gave this last post a +1 - same question to you
Please let me play this game before saying this at the end of game.
ah yes
the nick cage strat
Summarize this?
Isn't that what you're doing though too? You declared him scum and then went back to ISO and are twisting things to fit your pre set idea.
For example this....no where does Terry say he's skimming it. ISOing for meta is not skimming.
This is a very cherry picked way of viewing that post. Amy says something that had her Townreading ZDS but also lists reasons she sees a vote on him as “Valid.” She goes over the doubts she has on ZDS…he’s not ignoring a tower read he’s saying he thinks her doubts are valid.
Some of your points just seem to scream “I decided Terry was scum and need to make it seem valid”
The tl;dr is:
I think the way Terry handled ZDS's Iso was like he made it with the idea that ZDS is scum so he 'found' evidences to fit this idea, and he could make it as scum or as wrong town.
Scummy are his self awareness and the way he defend himself pretty aggresive in front of Wisp. He also has tonwie points but not many.
When he saw ZDS wants to look at Poison, Zionite and Tom he pointed out just Poison as LHF even if he doesn't know her.
Presenting half of truth is another scummy thing.
I said this from memory, i can't see the wall on phone, and i closed the laptop because it became too hot.
@Orangeandblack if you found Terry villagery, please enlighten me.
I was looking at the voting patterns at the end of the day, who was voting who, when, and why. There was quite a bit of shifting around at the last minute. I'm also looking at people who weren't voting, and why they weren't voting, if they said (there were some people who completely missed the lynch, which is a whole other thing entirely).
Trisscar replaced in on 6/26 at #1460, which is admittedly late in the day. She did a couple of long "catch-up" type posts, which I'm not digging into yet, but I will say they didn't have a lot in them by way of opinion.
The strongest opinion, and what kind of caught my eye was #1764. This is after I made my "gotcha" post on Konan (which, I know, was actually wrong, my bad, etc., etc). Here Trisscar ignores that post completely though, and instead discredits my attack by virtue of the fact that I am "neutral" and have expressed the opinion that my role sucks. Therefore, it seems the argument goes, I should not be trusted - regardless of what the argument is.
So, that stood out at first. And the rest of this post is a fairly strong defense/rebuttal of my argument that Shadow (as a vanilla) Town, wouldn't have made the posts that he did. Trisscar disagrees, but the argument isn't consistent. I was arguing that Shadow, as a vanilla, wouldn't have been stating how bad his role was, and Trisscar is rebutting me by saying "Vanilla town having a way to gain a role through game mechanics sounds interesting and honestly much more fun than being basic vanilla town with no option to do more than vote and argue ever."
This is not a rebuttal though, this is, like, exactly what I was saying. I didn't think Shadow would have been complaining if that was really his role.
My other point was that it would have been irresponsible for him to be so brazenly asking for the Dark Mark to be given to him as a vanilla townie. Trisscar doesn't seem to agree, saying: "I suspect that anyone asking for the mark is bored enough with their role (or unsatisfied enough) to want to see what happens." This doesn't seem consistent with the point she was making above though. Which was it, is the role interesting and more fun than vanilla Town, or boring and unsatisfying?
She goes on to suggest she would prefer a ZDS lynch, but doesn't actually have a "massive" read or "solid scum lean" on either of them. It's a serious hedge. Which might be okay for someone new to the game and still catching up, but begs the question why she would then be jumping in to make this post in defense of Konan to begin with?
What it really reads like is someone trying to be on the right side of history.
She follows that up in #1791, where, again, she states that nothing Konan has said tripped her radar - despite acknowledging at the same time she hasn't gone through Konan's iso or notes. She wants someone to summarize for her what is scummy about Konan. Again, it's just weird to me her taking this position of "I don't understand what the case is, but I don't like it." (because it came from Axelrod?) Just seems like Town would take a minute and look closer.
The original case was, of course, not mine at all, it came from Fulcrum. She did all the heavy lifting in forcing Konan to claim, and his claim is what I thought I busted him on, but Trisscar seems to have missed all those original arguments, despite there being quite a bit of them. When I look at her "catch-up" posts, specifically looking for opinions on Konan, or Fulcrum, or any opinions about the arguments being made, there's nothing. Tom specifically asked her what she had seen, and she says "not a ton" and not enough to "mentally mark" who started it. All it seems she registered was that Konan seemed to get a lot of votes quickly. Which makes me wonder, what kind of catching up was she doing?
And then Trisscar basically doesn't say anything else for the rest of the game day. There's no more defense of Konan, no suggestion of anyone else. No real opinions given. Just rides out the rest of the day with some strange comments on tangential stuff. No votes for anyone.
All this to say, when I'm looking for reactions that I think could be coming from Mafia, this is just the kind of thing I'm looking for. And then when I went back and looked closer at Zionite it didn't get better.
I am, again, not claiming this is a slam dunk. I am just taking my best shot. I see a bunch of suspicious stuff, and conversely, nothing that stood out as particularly "Townie."
There is no way he read those games through to see ZDS's meta and come with a wrong read, you are not realistic.
From Amy's wall i understood she TRs ZDS. :shrug
You didn't notice all the points i see. Why are you cherry picking my ideas?
Who do you have as 3 scum reads and 3 town reads would also be a good input.
Then why did i ask for oppinions?
Why are you so simple minded regarding me?
You don't understand me or you don't want to understand me?
@Tom, sir, can you help me understand what you ask here?
....It's not just you, it's this entire friggin' thread. I really want to know why offensively aggressive behavior is something people constantly go for in these games, this has happened twice now on two different forums each with large games, what the hell.
Alright lemme try to remember my thought process here....
My first batch of notes I was reading every post and commenting on things that caught my eye, but not actually processing much in terms of patterns because that is significantly simpler when you can lay out anything pertinent in shorter format instead.
By the second batch my focus was so trashed that I started heavily skimming, since half of the posts were arguments between multiple parties regardless and it was unpleasant as hell to read. Konan posted a few walls, I did not read them because they were walls and I wanted to get through the posts sometime before prod deadline or the next century.
I did read most of the shorter posts, or at least read enough to get the gist, of most people though, and the posts to Konan that stood out to me were looking overly aggro to a replacement player (especially considering how other replacements were treated) and Konan was showing what I felt was genuine frustration and other less pleasant emotions due to it. And no one seemed to even notice. I wasn't kidding when I told Whisper that this game looked unfun, holy crap people.
Then I get to the at the time end of the current posts, and I see the newest player getting voted off for reasons that just sound like the multiple arguments that were killing my focus and drive before, extremely fast. If a vote is fast in other versions of mafia I've played, then that means scum is likely voting it. Even if it's a bus, I'd still rather people not go along directly with a potential scum plan without careful thought.
Also in most of the variants I've played, vanilla town is inherently bad design because the player has nothing to do but discuss and vote, it's boring. Admittedly a lot of my experience is with Town of Salem and Throne of Lies recently, and both are significantly higher power floor than this, with much less time to discuss. Hence thinking that vanilla town roles here having a way to possibly gain abilities is interesting and possibly fun.
In terms of not doing things, previously mentioned lack of focus, in addition to things I cannot speak of due to rules, kept me distracted for a good while. I apologize for necessitating a prod though, that was not my intention.
Not helping is that the thread is STILL a European-mess of small time wars between different people, quite a few of which I can't or don't want to put full reads on because I can't tell if the issue is this aggro-centric playstyle, language barriers, previous games, or actual scum-logic, if not a combination of some or all at once.
Lastly, since this is likely what is tripping you up aside from the other stuff, I don't read people the same way a lot I've encountered seem to. I pay attention to different things and generally try not to bias myself initially by labelling anyone as "scummy" in general. If you want examples I can give you links to previous games, but my mind does not currently work the way people seem to want it to in order to produce read lists that look like theirs. Maybe it will one day, who knows, but that isn't the case now.
This is shallow man, you would say it back then if that would be the case.
Let's say it again, i said we should check ZDS's reads and you say is a bad idea or what?
what sense have the "let town drift that way", did i ask anyone to follow me? Was anyone ready to go and check? Or you have just big imagination?
I think you go for Lamist but this push is a bad one.
If you are villager, why do you think that ZDS's reads should be ignored? Now that we know he was town motivated and we know he is a competent villager, why not -not follow him blindly- consider his reads and at least discuss them?
1) I was scum in Prison with ZDS. I can easily see how someone could see similar tone and meta between here and there. Sometimes meta reads fail. They're not fool proof and I think it's disingenuous to claim that anyone who ****s up a meta case is auto scum or lying.
2) You asked for opinions. I'm giving them. Some of your case is weak and you had to twist like and owls head to make it a scum point.
My head is annoyed that it's storming and I don't get to take my walk.
Amy, Tom, Rod
WMU, Sloth, Tubba
And since when does “not saying something then” mean that’s not why I said something.
Me “says something”
You “why did you say that?”
Me “because reason”
You “no you would have already said that”.
1) Yet when you get opinions you go full hedgehog.
2) Rude.
3) I understand you just fine I think.
Your question of “should we follow zds reads” with no bite behind it comes across as something Inexperienced scum would say imo.
my pc's busted. new boot drive arrives wednesday, should be back sometime around then
I'm going to try, just for funsies and score myself on what I think WMU is trying to read out of these comments (*like what I think WMU's end point was)
#210-234: Umm yeah, that's pretty much standard for me. (+0*)
#247: Thanks for the Town Point WMU (+1*)
#329 & #458: WMU both approves and disapproves of basing the Day 1 lynch options on the amount of info that can be gained in the same comment. (+0*)
#334: Apparently WMU awards me a minus point for saying, "Tom is Tomming" because it was silly for me to even attempt a read on only GIFs (-1*)
#443: I can't even decipher this comment. I think he's saying he hasn't seen a player pat their Voter on the head? (+0*)
#467: WMU just repeats what I said in the post about both LW and Axel claiming non-flippers (+0*)
#903 & #913: WMU looks at my exploration of those voting Axel and basically says he'll look more into it, while saying he thinks LW was town, still no actual comment on my alignment (+1*)
#928 & 931: Still nothing on my comment. I don't see why these posts made his highlight reel. #928 is a clear explanation of my opinion (+0*)
#1046: Ok, here's a meaty post about my case on ZDS (which is a follow up on the Axel thing in #903 & #913 (and since I actually do follow up, I'm assuming that gives me +1) that WMU wants to take apart:
1) WMU says he thinks it's hypocritical that I complained about ZDS focusing on claims, when I did the same in so many posts before that. I don't think I did, so I had to go back and read my ISO. Yep, I was right. Not a single comment directly talking about anyone's claims. Maybe he meant Axel, so I said wouldn't moan about a bad role as scum just to be sneaky, which is really more of a meta argument than a claim one.
2) Umm, I voted ZDS so far after this (#525) and it was just one of the reasons I voted for him. I changed my read on Rod between #525 and #1046, which is allowed and I thought the ZDS case felt forced and that he just wanted to "look like" he was scum hunting. I was wrong, but I don't think I was the only one wrong about him.
3) My comment in question, "Not much here but maybe a little bit of shading if you squint." seems like a pretty neutral comment and I at least called out my squinting, unlike WMU's entire ISO attack on me.
4) I know what tunnels look like, I'm looking at one right now. In fact, I was about to get out of my tunnel on WMU and explore the whole game before I got sucked into this.
5) Did WMU not see the hypocrisy in ZDS voting Axel for being on the Rod wagon, when ZDS was the one that started the Rod wagon?
6) Lurkers are LHF. I stand by that comment. I think WMU is trying to say that I know Poison is town because I called them low hanging fruit. Low hanging fruit, to me are people that look easy to lynch, the term itself is not alignment indicative. I can't really understand the rest of this comment.
7) I even called myself out on "seeing red" at this point of the ISO. You should know what that feels like, at least I'm honest with myself.
OVERALL I think this is (-1*)
#1048 & #1072: He doesn't like that I didn't follow up on Tubba saying Negtown and not Negscum and he didn't like my questions for Tom. So I know this is supposed to be negative for me but just not liking a post really shouldn't be. (-1*)
#1222: Umm, I was taking a jab at Kpaca, like the opposite of pocketing. I straight up said he rated himself too high. (This has to be +0* because he was just so blatantly wrong on this)
#1223: Ok, now thinking for myself and not just jumping on board with what other people say is a bad thing? First of all, I don't even think the AMy post in question had ZDS as town. Second, even if it did, why would I care? I think Amy is town, but it shouldn't impact my reads on others. ANNNNDDD... right... paranoia and associative reads are TOTALLY not town traits, because you know... they totally have no reason to be paranoid and see teams that may or may not exist. (-1*)
#1232: NAI according to this comment but it was +1 earlier (+0*)
#1420-#1542: I don't know what the point is here
#1543: At this point I'm mad at myself for even wasting my time responding to all this. AYFKM? Reading someone's previous two games is obviously going to be a skim and no one will be certain, but caring enough to do so is definitely +1, but WMU said not so.. (+0*)
So when my timesuck is said and done I see a whole lot of +0, two +1 and four -1. Of those four, three are complete garbage and the remaining -1 (steaming off of #1046) is a super big stretch.
That being said, I'm going to need to ignore WMU for the most part, this is starting to feel like a deliberate distraction.
How would you rate your fluency in English, assuming I'm correct in remembering that it is not your first language?
-
Sorry I've been quiet, catching up has been a real ******* chore. I'm tempted to just give up and dive into Wake/Sloth/whoever ISOs instead.
Rodemy
Ampharos
kpaca
Jackrito
Tubba Fett
(Axelrod)
for Not Mafia reads, and everyone else is kind of just floating in the void. tom's okay but I feel some type of way with how he's kind of just written me off.
wispwill and testament regarding her, especially if he was shot by a scum vig.